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View Full Version : Do we need to draft a QB in April?


baja
12-09-2009, 07:24 AM
After watching Orton for 11 games now do you think he is the QB for Denver going forward because if Josh doesn't think so he will not wait to find the guy he thinks is the long term Denver QB.

Poll coming.....

lex
12-09-2009, 07:25 AM
QBs take time to develop. I hope the QB of the future is Brandstater or maybe a FA.

bowtown
12-09-2009, 07:28 AM
It really all depends on what McD thinks of Brandstater's progress so far. I think he'd be okay with letting Orton steer the ship for the next two or so years until T$ is ready to take over, assuming McD thinks he is the real deal. I still wouldn't be surprised to see us draft another QB late this year as depth and insurance, as I don't think Simms will be back.

Ambiguous
12-09-2009, 07:31 AM
It really all depends on what McD thinks of Brandstater's progress so far. I think he'd be okay with letting Orton steer the ship for the next two or so years until T$ is ready to take over, assuming McD thinks he is the real deal. I still wouldn't be surprised to see us draft another QB late this year as depth and insurance, as I don't think Simms will be back.

We can only hope...

I think Orton is doing okay, but he has probably reached his potential. If we're going to get a real franchise QB to build around we need to draft one this year or next.

KS Bronco
12-09-2009, 07:34 AM
I think the reason cassettesel flourished last year was because of his experience with mcd's system. i think one more year and orton is gonna surprise us even more.

Hercules Rockefeller
12-09-2009, 07:38 AM
No.

They gave up 2 picks for Brandstater last year, he was targeted by McD for some reason. Unless he's totally **** the bed in practice, I have a hard time seeing them move in a different direction so quickly. Orton is serviceable for next year and Brandstater will get another year of development. Ask this question next year.

FantomForce
12-09-2009, 07:38 AM
That depends on whether or not has Locker declared for the draft.

Pony Boy
12-09-2009, 07:46 AM
I don't think McDanielís will draft a QB unless one falls to us in in a late round. I think he is pleased with Ortonís progress and also with where Branstater is at. Too much risk in drafting a 1st round Ob, paying him big bucks and watching him fail.......That being said, I don't think we will ever be an elite team again until we have the elite OB....

Spider
12-09-2009, 07:47 AM
Meh .......... seriously doubt it ........... Remember when Bledsoe went down , Brady who ? then Castle ........
I think there is something to this McD system ...........give orton time see what happens

DrFate
12-09-2009, 07:50 AM
You only get so far with re-treads. Draft a quality signal caller...

Rabb
12-09-2009, 07:50 AM
well I chose "We will sign Orton and draft a QB that thinks he can have ready in 2011" but I don't really think it will be for 2011, I think it is because we really only have 2 options right now at QB. Simms needs to go, so I think we draft one for depth and grooming but not necessarily to get Orton out of there. Orton wins, I don't see why we need to mess with that personally.

Dr. Broncenstein
12-09-2009, 07:54 AM
I'd like to see an honest competition between Orton and Brandstatter in the offseason. We probably will need to draft another project quarterback to replace Simms. I doubt we draft someone high unless there is a top-tier guy that falls right to us. I can't imagine Simms being invited back next year. The problem is Orton will need a new contract.

I think the bigger question is this: Do we pay Orton what it will take to keep him here? I'd like to, but honestly I'd rather spend the money on Dumervil, Kuper, and Marshall (if he can keep his **** together).

outdoor_miner
12-09-2009, 07:58 AM
I'm 99% convinced that we will not use a high draft pick on a "franchise qb" in this draft (unless Orton implodes down the stretch). With that being said, I could see a mid-round pick if McD doesn't think Brandstater is capable, which is really tough for us to know. I have no doubt that McD will have someone waiting in the wings in case Orton is either injured or if he does not continuously improve (ie. I doubt McD would be happy if the offense puts up similar numbers in 2010 as they have this year).

Kaylore
12-09-2009, 08:13 AM
I think we'll draft a QB to replace Simms.

vancejohnson82
12-09-2009, 08:14 AM
in my opinion there are no guys worth taking....i might get trashed for saying that but I really dont like Bradford, McCoy, Clausen, etc...

Tombstone RJ
12-09-2009, 08:15 AM
Lets see how Orton does getting the Broncos to the playoffs. If the Broncos make the playoffs, lets see how Orton performs in the playoffs.

There's still a lot of football to be played.

I real NFL QB earns his stripes in the post season.

Rohirrim
12-09-2009, 08:17 AM
I wouldn't pass on a kid named Tom Brady in the sixth round. But seriously, folks...

I believe that McD is an excellent judge of QBs. I wouldn't want to see us draft one on the first day, but I expect to see a QB picked on the second.

Smiling Assassin27
12-09-2009, 08:24 AM
I think we'll draft a QB to replace Simms.

i think brandstater gets first crack at that position. if we can get him late, mallett would be interesting but i can't see him lasting til day 2.

gyldenlove
12-09-2009, 08:25 AM
Drafting a QB strictly depends on what Mcdaniels thinks about Brandstater and if we resign Orton.

I think we will draft a QB regardless, but under what circumstances I think is still very much uncertain. If Mcdaniels likes Brandstater as a future backup or more and Orton resigns then there is no reason to draft a QB before the 2nd day of the draft. On the other hand if Brandstater is not progressing or Orton doesn't resign then a QB on day is almost a given.

gyldenlove
12-09-2009, 08:25 AM
i think brandstater gets first crack at that position. if we can get him late, mallett would be interesting but i can't see him lasting til day 2.

Mcdaniels I think will carry 3 QBs on the roster so even with Simms out of here we will need an emergency guy.

baja
12-09-2009, 08:27 AM
I think we'll draft a QB to replace Simms.

I think we will sign one with experience if we stick with Orton as our starter.

jhns
12-09-2009, 08:29 AM
Lets see how Orton does getting the Broncos to the playoffs. If the Broncos make the playoffs, lets see how Orton performs in the playoffs.

There's still a lot of football to be played.

I real NFL QB earns his stripes in the post season.

This.

As of now, I would like to see another QB brought in. I do not think Orton is the answer and I have no clue what some people are watching when they hype him. To be a complete team, we need a QB. Orton could turn into that guy but he hasn't shown it yet. We have good to great players at every offensive position other than QB and we are not getting results. This offense should be near the top of the league, not the bottom...

chex
12-09-2009, 08:30 AM
I voted to keep him long term.

Playing his first year in a complex new system for a franchise that was totally revamped in the offseason; heís done well IMO. Plus, the guy played with a glove on his throwing hand because of a busted index finger, and now heís playing on a gimpy ankle. Things like that easily hamper a QBís play, but we havenít suffered because of it. Sure, heís not perfect, but itís unreasonable to say weíll just go out and replace him with a franchise QB, as if theyíre sitting on supermarket shelves waiting to be bought. Build around the guy while he continues to learn the system, and focus on other areas that need attention.

He has far exceeded everyoneís expectations, and has outplayed circles on our former QB. Weíre 8-4 with the guy; itís unfortunate he gets treated the way Jake Plummer was. He doesnít win pretty sometimes, but he wins. And if itís because the team wins in spite of him, then keep him anyway, because the team couldnít win in spite of, or because of, guys like Brian Griese and Jay Cutler. Whatever the formula is, it works.

WolfpackGuy
12-09-2009, 08:35 AM
Orton has pretty much been the QB by default since the trade.

He is what he's always been. A game manager with little pocket presence who also happens to be immobile.

I don't have any issue with drafting someone on Day 2 in April.

cartel
12-09-2009, 08:37 AM
orton has played 1 yr in the system and some already know he is not the qb for the future. this is laughable, i'll put money down he's our qb for the next 2 yrs and puts up way better numbers than this year. we'll draft another qb in the later round for competition but i think mcd just keeps two next year since orton and tom should be comfortable with his system.

Dagmar
12-09-2009, 08:42 AM
Not read the replies, basically, while we don't need to, if Chicago's pick gives the opportunity at a good one, I think we should and let them sit and develop with McD.

JCMElway
12-09-2009, 08:45 AM
McD will draft a QB. There are some very nice prospects that will be available in the later rounds. Guys like Canfield, Hiller, Lefevour, Zac Robinson, and Crompton may all be there by round 5. Some sites also have Colt McCoy falling into the 3rd or 4th. So, we will draft a QB, but not in the first two or three rounds.

Pony Boy
12-09-2009, 08:46 AM
i think brandstater gets first crack at that position. if we can get him late, mallett would be interesting but i can't see him lasting til day 2.

Agreed, but don't think Mallet will come out this draft but if he does he will go to the top. The kid has huge potential, 6' 7" and a howitzer for an arm. He also plays in a pro style offence.

Dr. Broncenstein
12-09-2009, 08:47 AM
There isn't really an option of just "keeping Orton around" for the hell of it. He's a free agent next year. Keeping Orton around = committing to Orton.

baja
12-09-2009, 08:49 AM
How about this guy teamed with the winner that is Josh McDaniels;

http://www.lancewilkerson.com/storage/pictures/college-football/tebow.jpg

Dr. Broncenstein
12-09-2009, 08:52 AM
How about this guy teamed with the winner that is Josh McDaniels;

http://www.lancewilkerson.com/storage/pictures/college-football/tebow.jpg

We have a dumb white running back already. Amirite?

baja
12-09-2009, 08:58 AM
We have a dumb white running back already. Amirite?

Is he dumb?

Rohirrim
12-09-2009, 08:58 AM
How about this guy teamed with the winner that is Josh McDaniels;

http://www.lancewilkerson.com/storage/pictures/college-football/tebow.jpg

Another linebacker?

chex
12-09-2009, 09:01 AM
McD will draft a QB. There are some very nice prospects that will be available in the later rounds. Guys like Canfield, Hiller, Lefevour, Zac Robinson, and Crompton may all be there by round 5. Some sites also have Colt McCoy falling into the 3rd or 4th. So, we will draft a QB, but not in the first two or three rounds.

Then what happens with Orton and Brandstater?

It was only a few short months ago that more than a few people here were calling for Brandstater to start the season after his good preseason performance. So are we drafting a QB to groom down the road? Where does that leave Brandstater? I donít think McDaniels will bury him on the depth chart. As mentioned earlier, McDaniels specifically targeted him for a reason; heís not going to push him aside after one season.

As for Orton, he has to be signed, and heís not going to sign for a two year, low $ deal to placate people on the Mane. Heís going to want a 4 year deal at least, and heís not going to do it for backup money. If we donít sign him, then who starts next year? Maybe we can convince the Colts to trade us Peyton Manning? I donít know. I do know heís about to win more games in a single season than Cutler ever did. And if Cutler is doing lousy in Chicago because they donít know how to run an offense there, then itís unwiitngly being said that Orton canít be blamed for anything bad in Chicago too, which wouldnít be much anyway since he won 2/3 of his starts there.

To give up on a QB whoís in his first year in a complex system is a little shortsighted in my opinion, especially when heís about to take us to the playoffs!

Rohirrim
12-09-2009, 09:08 AM
Because it's a complex system, McD might want three QBs. And I doubt that Simms will be here.

Pony Boy
12-09-2009, 09:10 AM
How about this guy teamed with the winner that is Josh McDaniels;

http://www.lancewilkerson.com/storage/pictures/college-football/tebow.jpg

He will be a Jacksonville Jaguar, you can bet the farm on it......

The Joker
12-09-2009, 09:14 AM
The next four (and hopefully more) games will give us a much clearer indication of Orton's standing as Denver's QB, long term.

Ideal scenario is that Denver makes the playoffs and Orton wins us some games and generally looks great in January. He does that, you give him a nice contract and commit to him as your QB for the next few years.

What I expect to happen though is that we'll make the playoffs and Orton will look much like he has all season, an above average quarterback who can make some plays and won't throw games away. However, also a QB who isn't quite getting as much out of the talent he has on offense as he maybe should be. That happens, then you slap him with the highest RFA tender and keep him on the cheap for another season.

You then draft another QB, most likely an early Day 2 selection, and give Orton one more year as the starter to prove he's worth commiting to long term. If he steps up next year, great. If not, let Brandstater and our new QB battle it out for the starting gig in 2011.

Now, if draft day comes and we're on the clock somewhere between picks #10 and #15 and you still have someone like Bradford, Locker, Mallet or McCoy on the board and McDaniels looks at one of those guys and thinks to himself "This guy is the next Peyton Manning", then can you really pass up the chance to draft him?

Unless we're absolutely 100% sure Kyle Orton is a QB we can win championships with, drafting a QB early next April has to be a possibility.

Rabb
12-09-2009, 09:17 AM
it is kind of funny to me really that anyone really wants to replace Orton when they can

it happened in Chicago and it seems to be the long term consensus here

I like the guy, and the guy is winning...I just fail to see a need to **** with that

ScottXray
12-09-2009, 09:27 AM
After watching Orton for 11 games now do you think he is the QB for Denver going forward because if Josh doesn't think so he will not wait to find the guy he thinks is the long term Denver QB.

Poll coming.....

Too early for me.

I think we WILL sign Orton, but I don't think he is McDs Long term plan. He imposes too many limitations on the offense and McD will look for more from his O than Orton can eventually provide.

Depends on how Brandstater does next PS, and Simms is definitely done.
I think we may draft a QB...but in later rounds and for development. Or we may sign a backup vet that comes cheap.
Orton is the starter again NEXT year, but after that it is wide open.

Dr. Broncenstein
12-09-2009, 09:32 AM
Too early for me.

I think we WILL sign Orton, but I don't think he is McDs Long term plan. He imposes too many limitations on the offense and McD will look for more from his O than Orton can eventually provide.

Depends on how Brandstater does next PS, and Simms is definitely done.
I think we may draft a QB...but in later rounds and for development. Or we may sign a backup vet that comes cheap.
Orton is the starter again NEXT year, but after that it is wide open.

Retaining Orton will take a substantial investment... not the type of contract you give to guys who aren't in the long term plan.

Dukes
12-09-2009, 09:35 AM
If McD's system is as complex as it's made out to be, I'm willing to sign Orton and see how he does next year. But at the same time, if a quality QB falls to us in the draft I have no problem taking him.

broncocalijohn
12-09-2009, 09:37 AM
We have Brandstater as 2nd stringer next year or 2011 and we will not waste a high draft pick on a QB. If we get one to replace Simms, it will be 4th round to 7th round and/or get a free agent. Orton will be here in 2010 IMO.

Tombstone RJ
12-09-2009, 09:37 AM
The next four (and hopefully more) games will give us a much clearer indication of Orton's standing as Denver's QB, long term.

Ideal scenario is that Denver makes the playoffs and Orton wins us some games and generally looks great in January. He does that, you give him a nice contract and commit to him as your QB for the next few years.

What I expect to happen though is that we'll make the playoffs and Orton will look much like he has all season, an above average quarterback who can make some plays and won't throw games away. However, also a QB who isn't quite getting as much out of the talent he has on offense as he maybe should be. That happens, then you slap him with the highest RFA tender and keep him on the cheap for another season.

You then draft another QB, most likely an early Day 2 selection, and give Orton one more year as the starter to prove he's worth commiting to long term. If he steps up next year, great. If not, let Brandstater and our new QB battle it out for the starting gig in 2011.

Now, if draft day comes and we're on the clock somewhere between picks #10 and #15 and you still have someone like Bradford, Locker, Mallet or McCoy on the board and McDaniels looks at one of those guys and thinks to himself "This guy is the next Peyton Manning", then can you really pass up the chance to draft him?

Unless we're absolutely 100% sure Kyle Orton is a QB we can win championships with, drafting a QB early next April has to be a possibility.

I agree. Also, you can never be too deep at QB. As much as I like Orton, if there's a blue chip QB sitting there in the first round and McD really likes the kid, then I think you have to take him.

It would suck for Orton but for the long term viability of the team, its one of those tough decisions that good franchises have to make.

Popps
12-09-2009, 09:37 AM
I like Brandstater's skill-set. Need to see more of him. If there's a nice value, sure.. you draft a guy. Not early, though.

Tell you what, though... we'd better lock Orton up. Don't think so? Take a peek at the free agent QB crop available next year. I'll give you a hint, Orton is widely considered the best of the bunch.

Lolad
12-09-2009, 09:40 AM
Orton is not a franchise QB!

We need a QB that can make all the throws with consistently. Another year in the system isn't going to help Orton get the ball on a 15 yard out right on the numbers. Orton lacks accuracy the "my bad" crap!! He's been in this league a number of years and he is NOT an accurate QB. Point blank!

We need a semi-mobile QB with accuracy who can consistently throw the ball down the field. We hashed over this before, I'm not talking bombs but passes +10 yards with some zip.

ScottXray
12-09-2009, 09:42 AM
Retaining Orton will take a substantial investment... not the type of contract you give to guys who aren't in the long term plan.

No....we will sign him, then after McD has the QB we need we'll trade him ....
probably to Seattle for 2 firsts and third. Maybe we'll throw a Fifth back their way.

Rabb
12-09-2009, 09:45 AM
Orton is not a franchise QB!

We need a QB that can make all the throws with consistently. Another year in the system isn't going to help Orton get the ball on a 15 yard out right on the numbers. Orton lacks accuracy the "my bad" crap!! He's been in this league a number of years and he is NOT an accurate QB. Point blank!

We need a semi-mobile QB with accuracy who can consistently throw the ball down the field. We hashed over this before, I'm not talking bombs but passes +10 yards with some zip.

I have to disagree with 3 points you made

1. Orton is not a franchise QB

How does anyone know? He didn't get that fair of a shot in Chicago and when he did...all he did was win. So far, he is winning here and we are in the playoff hunt. I just don't understand what else makes someone a franchise QB maybe.

2. He cannot make all the throws

Fair enough, he doesn't have the arm that Cutler did but Cutler COULD make all the throws and look where that got us.

3. "I'm not talking bombs but passes +10 yards with some zip."

I think he excels in that area to be honest

I have yet to have someone present an argument to me that makes me think Orton isn't our guy. I think he IS our guy personally and as long as he keeps the spot will continue to earn it.

Until he starts losing more than he wins, I just don't see a need to make a change.

Dr. Broncenstein
12-09-2009, 09:47 AM
No....we will sign him, then after McD has the QB we need we'll trade him ....
probably to Seattle for 2 firsts and third. Maybe we'll throw a Fifth back their way.

http://www.memedepot.com/uploads/0/207_not_sure_if_serious.jpg

baja
12-09-2009, 09:49 AM
Retaining Orton will take a substantial investment... not the type of contract you give to guys who aren't in the long term plan.

Not necessarily, it's not like teams will be standing in line to sign Orton as their starting QB. Supply and demand still sets contracts in the NFL unless you happen to be a rookie. ;D

NYBronco
12-09-2009, 09:49 AM
I need more time. I thought Cutler was the real deal and Orton is out performing "the franchise". Besides it's a transistion year for Orton and a new QB will put us in the same position next year.

TheDave
12-09-2009, 09:53 AM
He is for the forseable future... and yes he will cost us significantly next year. Hell that idiot in Carolina just signed for huge money after he threw 5 picks in the playoff game against AZ.

SJ Bronco
12-09-2009, 09:55 AM
I'll wait and see what the neck beard does for us, but it's never a bad idea to draft a QB, even if we are training him to be a back up and an insurance policy.

cartel
12-09-2009, 09:56 AM
Orton is not a franchise QB!

We need a QB that can make all the throws with consistently. Another year in the system isn't going to help Orton get the ball on a 15 yard out right on the numbers. Orton lacks accuracy the "my bad" crap!! He's been in this league a number of years and he is NOT an accurate QB. Point blank!

We need a semi-mobile QB with accuracy who can consistently throw the ball down the field. We hashed over this before, I'm not talking bombs but passes +10 yards with some zip.

just another fan that probably wanted simms or tom to start as well. 62.1% completion rate, 88.2 qb rating, 8-4, and on the brink of playoffs. gain some perspective and watch some football instead of dreaming for cutler.

ScottXray
12-09-2009, 09:57 AM
http://www.memedepot.com/uploads/0/207_not_sure_if_serious.jpg

Funny....

I'm HALF serious. If Orton gets us to the playoffs this and NEXT year, whats to say we wouldn't trade him....assuming we got the future QB in that time. And what if TB is the next TB? If Orton is riding the bench and has a large contract # why would McD not follow his mentors example, and trade or cut him.

Orton has more of a good head than Plummer....he probably wouldn't mind getting paid to mentor a young-un rather than play, but he would want to play somewhere.

anyway, Orton will be signed...I have no doubt of that. Who eventaully replaces him is the question , and how long it takes.

Lolad
12-09-2009, 09:58 AM
1. Does he make our offense better? That's what makes a QB a franchise player. If you and everyone of the guys hyping him up no that we are limited in what we can do on offense. Do you honestly believe he can bring us out of a hole in the 4th?

2. Cutler could make all the throws, but he wasn't consistently finding the open receiver. That takes time and grooming the QB to go through his progressions rather than forcing it. We can't groom Orton, he wouldn't have the arm to get it there anyway.

3. You can't be serious. 11-20 yards He has missed more than he has made in that area. This goes back to #2. he does not have the arm. His lack of pocket awareness is also evident.

Rabb
12-09-2009, 10:06 AM
1. Does he make our offense better? That's what makes a QB a franchise player. If you and everyone of the guys hyping him up no that we are limited in what we can do on offense. Do you honestly believe he can bring us out of a hole in the 4th?

2. Cutler could make all the throws, but he wasn't consistently finding the open receiver. That takes time and grooming the QB to go through his progressions rather than forcing it. We can't groom Orton, he wouldn't have the arm to get it there anyway.

3. You can't be serious. 11-20 yards He has missed more than he has made in that area. This goes back to #2. he does not have the arm. His lack of pocket awareness is also evident.

as soon as we are a worse team with Orton I will agree with you

right now, we aren't

Lolad
12-09-2009, 10:07 AM
just another fan that probably wanted simms or tom to start as well. 62.1% completion rate, 88.2 qb rating, 8-4, and on the brink of playoffs. gain some perspective and watch some football instead of dreaming for cutler.

No, that's where you are wrong. I knew we would have to play Orton this year because it would give us a better chance to win. QB rating is the most overrated stat in the NFL. Nor am I dreaming for cutler to come back

be honest and ask yourself if Orton is able to make all the throws consistently. I don't even think we need to have an elite QB Joe Flacco is a much better QB then Orton. He would do wonders in this system.

cartel
12-09-2009, 10:07 AM
1. Yes, he makes our offense better. Did you not watch what happened when he got hurt?

2. Cutler makes all the throws except the throws were to the wrong team. Why can't you groom Orton, it's his 1st year in the system.

3. Also a joke, he has plenty of zip on the intermediates but you must watch different games.

Do you really want to draft a rookie to start all over again? REALLY? There goes another 3 yrs of mediocrity, instead we could be playoff bound every year and after that, who knows. Think about it and stop dreaming for that one star qb.

Mile High Mojoe
12-09-2009, 10:08 AM
Yes we do. Nuff said.

oubronco
12-09-2009, 10:08 AM
Is Peyton Manning entering the draft

Paladin
12-09-2009, 10:10 AM
Orton can win 10 -13 games a year. Some around here have said that the D is what is winning the games. So what? There are many ways to win games. And I believe Orton can win at least ten games a year, and put the Broncos in position to win two or three more and can get into the playoffs with reguarity. As anyone knows, once you get to the playoffs, anything can happen. McD has been there before, and I think he has an idea of what it takes to get there.......

I do not know what McD's "long term" QB soultion is. Nor does anyone else here. So, until something changes, I think we will see Orton here in a long term capacity.

I don't know if Simms willl be gone next year or not. It just might be that McD will be able to give him more practice reps next year because Orton will be much more familiar with the O. The same with Brandstater.

In short, I would not be surprised if the QB situation remains as it is, and the first pick will be traded down and the first player picked will be a D player.....

Rabb
12-09-2009, 10:11 AM
No, that's where you are wrong. I knew we would have to play Orton this year because it would give us a better chance to win. QB rating is the most overrated stat in the NFL. Nor am I dreaming for cutler to come back

be honest and ask yourself if Orton is able to make all the throws consistently. I don't even think we need to have an elite QB Joe Flacco is a much better QB then Orton. He would do wonders in this system.

Flacco's team is 6-6 and partially due to his up and down play

our team is 8-4, a lot of that has to do with the way Orton takes care of the ball and makes decisions

I am not arguing that Flacco is not the more physically gifted of the 2 options but Orton is a smarter QB and a tremendous leader which trumps a lot of other abilities in my book

fans like you crack me up, let's bitch about the guy that has been getting the job done for us

SJ Bronco
12-09-2009, 10:15 AM
Funny....

I'm HALF serious. If Orton gets us to the playoffs this and NEXT year, whats to say we wouldn't trade him....assuming we got the future QB in that time. And what if TB is the next TB? If Orton is riding the bench and has a large contract # why would McD not follow his mentors example, and trade or cut him.

Orton has more of a good head than Plummer....he probably wouldn't mind getting paid to mentor a young-un rather than play, but he would want to play somewhere.

anyway, Orton will be signed...I have no doubt of that. Who eventaully replaces him is the question , and how long it takes.

;D sorry 12 year old momentROFL!

Muddled
12-09-2009, 10:27 AM
Hmm, depends, don't think there's need to reach for one in the draft or overpay in free agency, but if the right opportunity comes around, go for it

jhns
12-09-2009, 10:51 AM
Flacco's team is 6-6 and partially due to his up and down play

our team is 8-4, a lot of that has to do with the way Orton takes care of the ball and makes decisions

I am not arguing that Flacco is not the more physically gifted of the 2 options but Orton is a smarter QB and a tremendous leader which trumps a lot of other abilities in my book

fans like you crack me up, let's b**** about the guy that has been getting the job done for us

Fans like you crack me up. You act like the QB is the team. If we win some games, it can't be that the defense and playmakers made the needed plays, it is the QB that had 3 turnovers and was saved multiple times by his great receivers. Those throws 5 yards out that are hitting the receivers shoes, while no defender is around, are all Orton leading the team to wins.....

This team is winning because it has one of the best defenses in the league and playmakers all over the offense. With the supporting cast on this offense, an average QB should be able to produce. Instead, we have not touched the top half of the league in offensive production. What won us our SBs? Was it a complete team that lacked a QB? I think it was a team that had a productive offense and defense. What do all the most consistent teams in the league have? A very good QB.

The teams that win with ball control QBs are few and far between. They put together some of the best defenses in history and had good run games. Those teams also did not have any consistency over any period of time. While it certainly looks like we could develope into one of the greatest ever defenses, it would be great to have a top offense to compliment them. That would give us a much better shot at being consistently good. It would also give us a much better chance at some SBs.

Williams
12-09-2009, 11:04 AM
Too many factors involved to make that decision now. These next four games are clutch time. First, and most importantly, will Orton continue to play consistent ball, minimizing errors and winning games... or choke down the final stretch like Cutler last year? Second, how is Brandstater progressing? Third, will a McD QB drop to us in the 10 Draft? I vote "need more time".

orangemonkey
12-09-2009, 12:24 PM
Fans like you crack me up. You act like the QB is the team. If we win some games, it can't be that the defense and playmakers made the needed plays, it is the QB that had 3 turnovers and was saved multiple times by his great receivers. Those throws 5 yards out that are hitting the receivers shoes, while no defender is around, are all Orton leading the team to wins.....

This team is winning because it has one of the best defenses in the league and playmakers all over the offense. With the supporting cast on this offense, an average QB should be able to produce. Instead, we have not touched the top half of the league in offensive production. What won us our SBs? Was it a complete team that lacked a QB? I think it was a team that had a productive offense and defense. What do all the most consistent teams in the league have? A very good QB.

The teams that win with ball control QBs are few and far between. They put together some of the best defenses in history and had good run games. Those teams also did not have any consistency over any period of time. While it certainly looks like we could develope into one f the greatest ever defenses, it would be great to have a top offense to compliment them. That would give us a much better shot at being consistently good. It would also give us a much better chance at some SBs.

Word. Orton is mediocre. While he brings good value by playing mistake free football, he's the primary reason our offensive production has been in the bottom half of the league all season. Doesn't have the tools (like Brady or Cassel) to make this scheme fly. Like someone else said, he "limits" McD, Brandon, Eddie, etc. But he's consistent, protects the ball and, again, there is good value there. With a good defense and running game, you will get W's with Orton. When they falter, he will not carry the team.

It will be interesting to see how McD addresses this limiting factor next year. I bet he brings in another guy to have a serious 3-way competition.

Rigs11
12-09-2009, 12:26 PM
give Orton another year. He's done pretty good so far. banning a major collapse we will make the playoffs with him.

Dr. Broncenstein
12-09-2009, 12:50 PM
give Orton another year. He's done pretty good so far. banning a major collapse we will make the playoffs with him.

This has to be the 10th time in this thread where someone says "give Orton another year." The money it will take to retain Orton -- a free agent next year -- essentially means Orton will be the quarterback for the next several years. It will take a Delhomme-esque contract to keep Orton.

Tombstone RJ
12-09-2009, 12:52 PM
When the running game is working, Orton can be as good as any QB in the NFL when moving the ball down the field.

Posters who don't know football, don't understand this concept.

TheDave
12-09-2009, 12:56 PM
This has to be the 10th time in this thread where someone says "give Orton another year." The money it will take to retain Orton -- a free agent next year -- essentially means Orton will be the quarterback for the next several years. It will take a Delhomme-esque contract to keep Orton.

We might get lucky and if it's an uncapped year he will be a RFA... I doubt anyone gives us a 1 & 3 for him.


That would be funny as hell if Cutler turned into 3 1's and 2 3's

bowtown
12-09-2009, 12:59 PM
This has to be the 10th time in this thread where someone says "give Orton another year." The money it will take to retain Orton -- a free agent next year -- essentially means Orton will be the quarterback for the next several years. It will take a Delhomme-esque contract to keep Orton.

Orton will want his signing bonus in cases of Jack.

Rabb
12-09-2009, 01:01 PM
Originally Posted by jhns http://www.orangemane.com/BB/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?p=2669536#post2669536)
Fans like you crack me up. You act like the QB is the team. If we win some games, it can't be that the defense and playmakers made the needed plays, it is the QB that had 3 turnovers and was saved multiple times by his great receivers. Those throws 5 yards out that are hitting the receivers shoes, while no defender is around, are all Orton leading the team to wins.....

This team is winning because it has one of the best defenses in the league and playmakers all over the offense. With the supporting cast on this offense, an average QB should be able to produce. Instead, we have not touched the top half of the league in offensive production. What won us our SBs? Was it a complete team that lacked a QB? I think it was a team that had a productive offense and defense. What do all the most consistent teams in the league have? A very good QB.

The teams that win with ball control QBs are few and far between. They put together some of the best defenses in history and had good run games. Those teams also did not have any consistency over any period of time. While it certainly looks like we could develope into one f the greatest ever defenses, it would be great to have a top offense to compliment them. That would give us a much better shot at being consistently good. It would also give us a much better chance at some SBs.


maybe, just maybe...Orton is good for the system because he just fits into the TEAM concept

doesn't have to be above anyone, blame anyone, gain stats to be happy

he just plays

snowspot66
12-09-2009, 01:04 PM
Fans like you crack me up. You act like the QB is the team. If we win some games, it can't be that the defense and playmakers made the needed plays, it is the QB that had 3 turnovers and was saved multiple times by his great receivers. Those throws 5 yards out that are hitting the receivers shoes, while no defender is around, are all Orton leading the team to wins.....

This team is winning because it has one of the best defenses in the league and playmakers all over the offense. With the supporting cast on this offense, an average QB should be able to produce. Instead, we have not touched the top half of the league in offensive production. What won us our SBs? Was it a complete team that lacked a QB? I think it was a team that had a productive offense and defense. What do all the most consistent teams in the league have? A very good QB.

The teams that win with ball control QBs are few and far between. They put together some of the best defenses in history and had good run games. Those teams also did not have any consistency over any period of time. While it certainly looks like we could develope into one of the greatest ever defenses, it would be great to have a top offense to compliment them. That would give us a much better shot at being consistently good. It would also give us a much better chance at some SBs.

Fans like you crack me up. If we lose some games it's all on the QB and how he can't make the same throws as Elway or Cutler.

The Guy wins. That's all. Period. The last time we dumped a winner was Plummer. Orton is better than Plummer in every way except mobility. Plummer took an offensively and defensively inferior team to a 13-3 regular season and the AFCCG. And you want to dump Orton like a bad habit and start over once again on some shiny new stud.

No. We keep Orton for at least another year and see what he does with time in the system. WHILE we keep Orton we focus on building the defense and offensive line. The defense had been in decline for years until McDaniels and Nolan came along. We don't need to go and abandon rebuilding it right in the middle of the job. If we're getting the results we are now with the players we have now think about if we add a couple of major studs through the draft or free agency?

We get the defense built and then we can reassess the QB position. Why then? Because I don't want to sit through a miserable year or two of a young QB struggling with no defense again. And I don't want to pay out the ass for some young QB who might just be an arrogant punk with his head up his ass once again. If we develop the defense and wait on the big QB selection when we do draft a top QB it will be in a draft with a rookie salary cap based on draft slot and we won't potentially destroy our franchise for three or four years.

Rabb
12-09-2009, 01:08 PM
Fans like you crack me up. If we lose some games it's all on the QB and how he can't make the same throws as Elway or Cutler.

The Guy wins. That's all. Period. The last time we dumped a winner was Plummer. Orton is better than Plummer in every way except mobility. Plummer took an offensively and defensively inferior team to a 13-3 regular season and the AFCCG. And you want to dump Orton like a bad habit and start over once again on some shiny new stud.

No. We keep Orton for at least another year and see what he does with time in the system. WHILE we keep Orton we focus on building the defense and offensive line. The defense had been in decline for years until McDaniels and Nolan came along. We don't need to go and abandon rebuilding it right in the middle of the job. If we're getting the results we are now with the players we have now think about if we add a couple of major studs through the draft or free agency?

We get the defense built and then we can reassess the QB position. Why then? Because I don't want to sit through a miserable year or two of a young QB struggling with no defense again. And I don't want to pay out the ass for some young QB who might just be an arrogant punk with his head up his ass once again. If we develop the defense and wait on the big QB selection when we do draft a top QB it will be in a draft with a rookie salary cap based on draft slot and we won't potentially destroy our franchise for three or four years.

Bing-****ing-o

we could take an average QB and be just fine with a great defense

Hamrob
12-09-2009, 01:08 PM
I don't think that Orton is the answer. He's average at best. Having said that, I don't believe there's a rookie out there that will be better than Orton next year. However, if McDaniels feels strongly about one of these 1st round QB's...I'll support it.

I'd rather develop Brandstrater and bring in a guy like Culpepper or (youch) Vick to compete with Orton. That way we have a decent backup if needed. We certainly didn't have that covered this year.

Lastly, I'd support trading for Cassell if the Chiefs wanted to let him walk. I've watched him alot this year...the guy has all the tools, he just needs time.

orangemonkey
12-09-2009, 01:10 PM
Fans like you crack me up. If we lose some games it's all on the QB and how he can't make the same throws as Elway or Cutler.

The Guy wins. That's all. Period. The last time we dumped a winner was Plummer. Orton is better than Plummer in every way except mobility. Plummer took an offensively and defensively inferior team to a 13-3 regular season and the AFCCG. And you want to dump Orton like a bad habit and start over once again on some shiny new stud.

No. We keep Orton for at least another year and see what he does with time in the system. WHILE we keep Orton we focus on building the defense and offensive line. The defense had been in decline for years until McDaniels and Nolan came along. We don't need to go and abandon rebuilding it right in the middle of the job. If we're getting the results we are now with the players we have now think about if we add a couple of major studs through the draft or free agency?

We get the defense built and then we can reassess the QB position. Why then? Because I don't want to sit through a miserable year or two of a young QB struggling with no defense again. And I don't want to pay out the ass for some young QB who might just be an arrogant punk with his head up his ass once again. If we develop the defense and wait on the big QB selection when we do draft a top QB it will be in a draft with a rookie salary cap based on draft slot and we won't potentially destroy our franchise for three or four years.

The bolded statement is pretty empty. Plummer was highly successful BECAUSE of his mobility. Also, I argue that Orton's arm isn't as strong and accurate as Plummer's. Other than heart and leadership, this comparison doesn't work.

Hamrob
12-09-2009, 01:12 PM
orton has played 1 yr in the system and some already know he is not the qb for the future. this is laughable, i'll put money down he's our qb for the next 2 yrs and puts up way better numbers than this year. we'll draft another qb in the later round for competition but i think mcd just keeps two next year since orton and tom should be comfortable with his system.He probably will be our QB the next couple of years. The reason is...you can't find top 10 QB's growing on trees...so a guy who is middle of the pack is more valuable then we give him credit for.

The thing I cringe over, is when fans want to make Orton out to be something he's not...a top 10 QB.

His ceiling (IMO) is 10-12. He just is not mobile enough and he cannot make all the throws. He gets velocity once in a while, but he's not consistent and he floats alot of ducks when trying to throw the deep outs or across the middle.

snowspot66
12-09-2009, 01:21 PM
The bolded statement is pretty empty. Plummer was highly successful BECAUSE of his mobility. Also, I argue that Orton's arm isn't as strong and accurate as Plummer's. Other than heart and leadership, this comparison doesn't work.

Nonsense. Plummer was only successful (for a short period of time) because he had mobility. Nothing else. Kubiak had to design the entire offense around him rolling out. He couldn't do anything else except throw interceptions. Stop that and you stopped us. And guess what? Teams figured that out pretty quick.

Do you even remember Plummer's arm? He couldn't throw the ball deep for ****. The scariest thing I've ever had to watch on a football field was a drop back pass from Plummer. He couldn't do it. Honest to God couldn't do it. Orton is by far a superior passer to Plummer.

jhns
12-09-2009, 01:24 PM
Fans like you crack me up. If we lose some games it's all on the QB and how he can't make the same throws as Elway or Cutler.

The Guy wins. That's all. Period. The last time we dumped a winner was Plummer. Orton is better than Plummer in every way except mobility. Plummer took an offensively and defensively inferior team to a 13-3 regular season and the AFCCG. And you want to dump Orton like a bad habit and start over once again on some shiny new stud.

No. We keep Orton for at least another year and see what he does with time in the system. WHILE we keep Orton we focus on building the defense and offensive line. The defense had been in decline for years until McDaniels and Nolan came along. We don't need to go and abandon rebuilding it right in the middle of the job. If we're getting the results we are now with the players we have now think about if we add a couple of major studs through the draft or free agency?

We get the defense built and then we can reassess the QB position. Why then? Because I don't want to sit through a miserable year or two of a young QB struggling with no defense again. And I don't want to pay out the ass for some young QB who might just be an arrogant punk with his head up his ass once again. If we develop the defense and wait on the big QB selection when we do draft a top QB it will be in a draft with a rookie salary cap based on draft slot and we won't potentially destroy our franchise for three or four years.

Plummer had a top 10 offense and defense. Both sides produced with Plummer. I never had a problem with Plummer either until he became incompetent his last year here. You may want to check your facts on this team you think Plummer carried...

You like crap QBs and think they are the future. That is OK. I don't agree.

orangemonkey
12-09-2009, 01:27 PM
Plummer had a top 10 offense and defense. Both sides produced with Plummer. I never had a problem with Plummer either until he became incompetent his last year here. You may want to check your facts on this team you think Plummer carried...

You like crap QBs and think they are the future. That is OK. I don't agree.

haha. I disagree. Plummer was much more dangerous with his legs/arm than Orton is with his arm today.

Orton doesn't scare anyone. What our line has been asked to do this year is nothing short of Herculean.

snowspot66
12-09-2009, 01:29 PM
Plummer had a top 10 offense and defense. Both sides produced with Plummer. I never had a problem with Plummer either until he became incompetent his last year here. You may want to check your facts on this team you think Plummer carried...

You like crap QBs and think they are the future. That is OK. I don't agree.

A top 10 offense based entirely around rolling out on bootlegs and throwing interceptions. It took one game against the Steelers for everybody to solve that problem. A top 10 defense? More like Al Wilson and Champ Bailey (having his best year ever) and nothing else.

Orton is superior to Plummer. We shouldn't go ****ing up something that's working in the middle of fixing a lot of long standing problems just to chase the dream of some young gun QB. We did that once and it just made the problems worse. Fix the rest and then take your QB.

Hopefully this will all be moot point and McDaniels will believe he has that QB in Brandstater.

snowspot66
12-09-2009, 01:30 PM
haha. I disagree. Plummer was much more dangerous with his legs/arm than Orton is with his arm today.

Orton doesn't scare anyone. What our line has been asked to do this year is nothing short of Herculean.

Really? Blocking? That's Herculean? I'm pretty sure every other QB's line is asked to block.

This is what it has come down to. People hate Orton so much they are willing to defend not one (Cutler) but two turnover machines in order to claim that he's not any good.

misturanderson
12-09-2009, 01:42 PM
The only QB in the draft that I'm really interested in (barring Bradford falling into the late 2nd/early 3rd round) is Tony Pike. He reminds me a lot of Carson Palmer and if he can stay healthy I could see him as an elite QB in this offense.

The guy simply makes plays every time I've watched him and he seems to be physically superior to Orton in every way while having a good head on his shoulders. He has some injury concerns (though I'm not sure that they're any worse than Adrian Peterson's were coming out of college) and has had only one really good year, but I think that he could be great if he is allowed a year or two to bulk up a little and get coached up by our staff. Other than him, I'm not all that excited about any of the QBs coming out this year except maybe Clausen (who we have no shot at).

The best thing about him is that he almost certainly won't be a 1st rounder, so we can use that pick on someone that could contribute right away.

That being said, I'm not sure that our team wouldn't be more improved by avoiding QBs until the late rounds again while focusing our higher picks on the D line, interior O line and CB positions.

KevinJames
12-09-2009, 01:45 PM
what is up with the poll I meant to vote no for drafting a QB......Orton will be fine for now.

jhns
12-09-2009, 01:45 PM
A top 10 offense based entirely around rolling out on bootlegs and throwing interceptions. It took one game against the Steelers for everybody to solve that problem. A top 10 defense? More like Al Wilson and Champ Bailey (having his best year ever) and nothing else.

Orton is superior to Plummer. We shouldn't go ****ing up something that's working in the middle of fixing a lot of long standing problems just to chase the dream of some young gun QB. We did that once and it just made the problems worse. Fix the rest and then take your QB.

Hopefully this will all be moot point and McDaniels will believe he has that QB in Brandstater.

What? That offense was top 10. I don't care how an offense does it, get results and I have no complaints. Don't get results and I will say there is something wrong. How did everyone figure them out though? The game you are talking about was the last of the season.... They had a single bad game at a horrible time. This team has already lost as many games as that team and we have to win the SB to not lose more. Does that mean this offense has been figured out by everyone?

As for the defense, wow. Those were two great players but that defense had many. They still also were top 10. If it was only because of 1 player, who cares. Plummer still didn't lead this crap team like you are trying to portray. They were productive on both sides of the ball, period.

It sure looks to me like QB is the biggest problem now. Lets go back to that Plummer thing. Orton has a far superior supporting cast on offense compared to what Plummer ever had here. Every offense Plummer ran for a full year produced far more than this one. If Orton isn't the problem, coaching is. Since that would be far worse, I chose to blame Orton.

Lolad
12-09-2009, 01:53 PM
maybe, just maybe...Orton is good for the system because he just fits into the TEAM concept

doesn't have to be above anyone, blame anyone, gain stats to be happy

he just plays

that to me says AVERAGE!

I think in order to get over the hump and win a SB we will need an above average QB! Anybody thinking Orton is even in that conversation is delusional.

Guys crying about money we would give to a 1st rd pick. It would be marginal because we probably will not pick in the top 10. I believe Bradford will drop to the 2nd round and could be had there. I haven't given up on Brandstater either but we have to dump simms anyway.

Rabb
12-09-2009, 02:09 PM
that to me says AVERAGE!

I think in order to get over the hump and win a SB we will need an above average QB! Anybody thinking Orton is even in that conversation is delusional.

Guys crying about money we would give to a 1st rd pick. It would be marginal because we probably will not pick in the top 10. I believe Bradford will drop to the 2nd round and could be had there. I haven't given up on Brandstater either but we have to dump simms anyway.

you're right, let's go ahead and take a chance on some guy we have no idea about versus a guy that has won wherever he has been

smart thinking

DBroncos4life
12-09-2009, 02:36 PM
There are just too many talented QBs in this draft NOT to draft one in the first three rounds.

Lolad
12-09-2009, 02:57 PM
you're right, let's go ahead and take a chance on some guy we have no idea about versus a guy that has won wherever he has been

smart thinking

I'm not saying that at all. I doubt a rookie would come in right away and start I'm just saying we need to plan for the future because Orton isn't it.

bombay
12-09-2009, 03:08 PM
I like Orton, but if someone like Sam Bradford is available with the Bears pick, I wouldn't have a problem with him being selected.

misturanderson
12-09-2009, 03:53 PM
I like Orton, but if someone like Sam Bradford is available with the Bears pick, I wouldn't have a problem with him being selected.

That would be way too high to take Bradford at this point.

Irish Stout
12-09-2009, 03:56 PM
We are not drafting a QB this coming year. We will move Brandsateter to #2. We might draft a QB in 2011.

2KBack
12-09-2009, 03:57 PM
You know what I find hilarious. A great deal of the people that don't think Orton has a future here are the ones that were pissed about Cutler leaving, and now defend him by stating that he is young and still has time to get his act together.

Orton has played fewer games than Cutler people, and he started in the QB land of the lost!!! Why is it okay to wait for other QB's to develop, but Orton isn't given the same opportunity? It does not make sense.

DBroncos4life
12-09-2009, 04:05 PM
McCoy fits the profile more so then any of the big name QBs. He is almost perfect from short to mid range passing. If he slips to the end of the first round I wouldn't be shocked if we traded to get him.

jebures
12-09-2009, 04:12 PM
The next four (and hopefully more) games will give us a much clearer indication of Orton's standing as Denver's QB, long term.

Ideal scenario is that Denver makes the playoffs and Orton wins us some games and generally looks great in January. He does that, you give him a nice contract and commit to him as your QB for the next few years.

What I expect to happen though is that we'll make the playoffs and Orton will look much like he has all season, an above average quarterback who can make some plays and won't throw games away. However, also a QB who isn't quite getting as much out of the talent he has on offense as he maybe should be. That happens, then you slap him with the highest RFA tender and keep him on the cheap for another season.

You then draft another QB, most likely an early Day 2 selection, and give Orton one more year as the starter to prove he's worth commiting to long term. If he steps up next year, great. If not, let Brandstater and our new QB battle it out for the starting gig in 2011.

Now, if draft day comes and we're on the clock somewhere between picks #10 and #15 and you still have someone like Bradford, Locker, Mallet or McCoy on the board and McDaniels looks at one of those guys and thinks to himself "This guy is the next Peyton Manning", then can you really pass up the chance to draft him?

Unless we're absolutely 100% sure Kyle Orton is a QB we can win championships with, drafting a QB early next April has to be a possibility.

couldnt have said it any better, you do not pass up on a franchise QB when you do not have one already, i wouldnt trade up for any of these guys but if they fall to us, then damn right i would take them. Not really a fan of Locker or Bradford but mallets arm is scary and McCoy is a likable and talented player.

rastaman
12-09-2009, 05:29 PM
give Orton another year. He's done pretty good so far. banning a major collapse we will make the playoffs with him.

So long as Orton is the short term 2 or 3 year/stop gap QB for the Broncos McD needs to do two things:

1. Continue to draft defensive talent that Nolan feels can best suit his 3-4 Defense for the next two years.

2. Continue to groom Branstater for the next two years and hope Branstater turns into McD's Prototype "Cassel.

In two years Brandstater should be ready to go after 3 years learning to play in McD system.

In two years, Orton should be ready to take his rightful place as a 10 year backup QB in Denver. Like Gary Kubiak was backup to John Elway.

ColoradoDarin
12-09-2009, 05:36 PM
It's really too early, Orton has looked good at times in this offense and him getting a full offseason with his receivers and being in the system would be a good thing. Brandstater is a few years project to be considered a starter I think. Simms is gone (thankfully) and we'll bring in another vet as a backup or 3rd stringer.

Lolad
12-09-2009, 05:47 PM
You know what I find hilarious. A great deal of the people that don't think Orton has a future here are the ones that were pissed about Cutler leaving, and now defend him by stating that he is young and still has time to get his act together.

Orton has played fewer games than Cutler people, and he started in the QB land of the lost!!! Why is it okay to wait for other QB's to develop, but Orton isn't given the same opportunity? It does not make sense.

stick to the facts please. I don't think you've checked any previous post to assert such a thing. Cutler needed grooming because he already had the raw intangibles the arm, zip, and accuracy. Cutler was not going through his progressions he was forcing things. So in that instance he needed to be groomed.

How much more can you groom Orton? His arm isn't going to get any stronger, his passes down the field aren't going to miraculously fly out with some zip on it. The only thing Orton would benefit from being in this system is going through his progressions and seeing the correct read. But even if he's groomed to go through those progressions if he sees a receiver 15-20 yards streaking across the field is he going to hit them? Can you groom a QB to make all the throws, I think either you have it or you don't.

Even Mcdaniels said it in an interview that Cutler has a better skill set then Orton. He made that point clear when the trade happened. If you guys want an average QB Orton is your guy.

Inkana7
12-09-2009, 06:32 PM
stick to the facts please. I don't think you've checked any previous post to assert such a thing. Cutler needed grooming because he already had the raw intangibles the arm, zip, and accuracy. Cutler was not going through his progressions he was forcing things. So in that instance he needed to be groomed.

How much more can you groom Orton? His arm isn't going to get any stronger, his passes down the field aren't going to miraculously fly out with some zip on it. The only thing Orton would benefit from being in this system is going through his progressions and seeing the correct read. But even if he's groomed to go through those progressions if he sees a receiver 15-20 yards streaking across the field is he going to hit them? Can you groom a QB to make all the throws, I think either you have it or you don't.

Even Mcdaniels said it in an interview that Cutler has a better skill set then Orton. He made that point clear when the trade happened. If you guys want an average QB Orton is your guy.

Orton's only a year older than Cutler, bro.

2KBack
12-09-2009, 07:12 PM
stick to the facts please. I don't think you've checked any previous post to assert such a thing. Cutler needed grooming because he already had the raw intangibles the arm, zip, and accuracy. Cutler was not going through his progressions he was forcing things. So in that instance he needed to be groomed.

How much more can you groom Orton? His arm isn't going to get any stronger, his passes down the field aren't going to miraculously fly out with some zip on it. The only thing Orton would benefit from being in this system is going through his progressions and seeing the correct read. But even if he's groomed to go through those progressions if he sees a receiver 15-20 yards streaking across the field is he going to hit them? Can you groom a QB to make all the throws, I think either you have it or you don't.

Even Mcdaniels said it in an interview that Cutler has a better skill set then Orton. He made that point clear when the trade happened. If you guys want an average QB Orton is your guy.

Odd, you mention fact and then ramble off a bunch of opinion. As far as I've seen Orton's arm strength has been severely underrated. Making throws means more than throwing bombs, Ortons intermediate zip and accuracy has been fine. Hell half the passes in this offense seem to be outs, stops, and comebacks, the passes that are widely considered the most telling with intermediate arm strength. Orton has completed more than 60% of these passes. What throw can Orton NOT make, because frankly I don't see what people are talking about.

On that note, when people are talking about a skill set, what specifically are you referring to. As far as I can tell it keeps coming back to everyones hard-on about arm strength. Arms strength being the most overrated trait when it comes to evaluating QB's. The vast majority of histories top QB's have had moderate arm strength, which oddly enough is the grade Orton had when he was coming out of college. His assets when being graded out for the draft were his intermediate passes. You want facts, the fact is, his scouting report reads like a perfect QB for the McD system. Still people don't want to give him a chance, even while he has every measurable to show that he is a good QB. Wins? Stats? QB rating? No one here has a factual leg to stand on when arguing against this guy. all people have is an irrational hate for anyone who doesn't try to throw holes in his recievers.

ZONA
12-09-2009, 07:40 PM
Alot depends on how much Orton could get in the open market. If it's going to take alot of money to keep him, I would have to believe that you might see us go the route of having Brandstater slotted to be the starter, draft another QB in the later rounds as a project and sign another FA QB who might be able to handle things if Brandstater has a setback.

But, I think the most likely scenario is that Orton will not be able to command big bucks and that we would be able to sign him to a medium sized contract over 3 or 4 years. This gives us some insurance that we have a capable QB who knows McD's system and also allows Brandstater more time to develop or even compete for the starters job. I do think we let Simms go and draft a QB in the later rounds. I think the focus will be on OL and DL in the next draft.

Lolad
12-09-2009, 08:54 PM
Odd, you mention fact and then ramble off a bunch of opinion. As far as I've seen Orton's arm strength has been severely underrated. Making throws means more than throwing bombs, Ortons intermediate zip and accuracy has been fine. Hell half the passes in this offense seem to be outs, stops, and comebacks, the passes that are widely considered the most telling with intermediate arm strength. Orton has completed more than 60% of these passes. What throw can Orton NOT make, because frankly I don't see what people are talking about.

On that note, when people are talking about a skill set, what specifically are you referring to. As far as I can tell it keeps coming back to everyones hard-on about arm strength. Arms strength being the most overrated trait when it comes to evaluating QB's. The vast majority of histories top QB's have had moderate arm strength, which oddly enough is the grade Orton had when he was coming out of college. His assets when being graded out for the draft were his intermediate passes. You want facts, the fact is, his scouting report reads like a perfect QB for the McD system. Still people don't want to give him a chance, even while he has every measurable to show that he is a good QB. Wins? Stats? QB rating? No one here has a factual leg to stand on when arguing against this guy. all people have is an irrational hate for anyone who doesn't try to throw holes in his recievers.

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-films-sound-efx/09000d5d8133b2d8/Sound-FX-McDaniels-wired

2:25

Do you really think Orton can make ALL the throws with consistency? Do you really think McDaniels isn't playing to Ortons strengths throwing the short routes? Hell watch the Patriots vs. Broncos last year. See how many short passes Cassel throws and compare.

bombay
12-09-2009, 09:15 PM
Thank God Jay George is in Chicago.

Hamrob
12-10-2009, 07:58 AM
Kyle Orton tackles the term "franchise quarterback"

Posted by Mike Florio on December 10, 2009 7:18 AM ET
As Broncos quarterback Kyle Orton nudges toward the completion of his current contract in his first season with his current team after four in Chicago, one of the big questions facing his current team is whether Orton will be locked up for the long haul.

And that reality apparently prompted a member of the media to ask Orton on Wednesday to talk about the term "franchise quarterback."

Apparently, Orton believes that the term "franchise quarterback" arises only when the "franchise" feels a certain way about its "quarterback."

"That's all on the franchise," Orton said in comments distributed by the team. "That's all on the organization. That's probably the only way you can decide that is if the organization thinks you're one, then you're one. I guess we'll just wait and see."

In other words, Orton believes that if a team makes a long-term commitment to a quarterback by paying him a huge amount of money, then he's a "franchise quarterback."

We might not be able to come up with an accurate description of what a "franchise quarterback" clearly is, but in the present context we only need to focus on what a "franchise quarterback" clearly isn't.

Orton clearly isn't.

Exhibit A, he has a career passer rating of 76.0.

Exhibit B, his passer rating for the current season is 88.2.

Exhibit C, he was a free-rope-when-you-buy-a-Christmas-tree afterthought in the trade that sent the true "franchise quarterback" (who might not be one, after all) to Chicago in exchange for two first-round draft picks.

And if Orton is looking for a big contract that would make him a "franchise quarterback," he likely will continue to wait. Absent a new Collective Bargaining Agreement, he'll be a restricted free agent in March 2010, and the Broncos will be able to retain his rights with a one-year contract offer in the range of $3 million.

And that would be Exhibit D.

colonelbeef
12-10-2009, 08:05 AM
I wouldn't pass on a kid named Tom Brady in the sixth round. But seriously, folks...

I believe that McD is an excellent judge of QBs. I wouldn't want to see us draft one on the first day, but I expect to see a QB picked on the second.

He can coach them, but his judgment of QB talent is in question.

baja
12-10-2009, 08:09 AM
He can coach them, but his judgment of QB talent is in question.

Simms has talent his problem is mental.

2KBack
12-10-2009, 08:17 AM
http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-films-sound-efx/09000d5d8133b2d8/Sound-FX-McDaniels-wired

2:25

Do you really think Orton can make ALL the throws with consistency? Do you really think McDaniels isn't playing to Ortons strengths throwing the short routes? Hell watch the Patriots vs. Broncos last year. See how many short passes Cassel throws and compare.

Are you seriously using the my bad quote as some sort of proof? A coach, coaching a player, means that the player isn't any good?

As for short passes, i don't need to go watch one game because all i need to see is Yards per pass attempts. Orton is averaging 7.1 yards per pass attempts. That's more than Tom Brady averaged his first 3 years in a similar system, and more than Cassell last season. That's the same as Elway's career average, and around the same both Culter and Plummer averaged here. I'm sorry, but a lot of people are seeing negatives in Orton, that just really aren't there. There are no facts to back up the claim that "he can't make all the throws." Which is the funniest of abstract complaints.

I won't argue if someone says he isn't mobile enough, or that his release is a bit slow. This arm strength thing though and making all the throws nonsense is a myth as far as I can tell.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
12-10-2009, 08:36 AM
This is the ultimate question. Unfortunately, without knowing how Brandstater has been doing, we really have no idea.

That said, I think we draft another late-rounder this year to develop alongside TB, and in a few years they fight to the death for the starting job.

orangemonkey
12-10-2009, 08:45 AM
Are you seriously using the my bad quote as some sort of proof? A coach, coaching a player, means that the player isn't any good?

As for short passes, i don't need to go watch one game because all i need to see is Yards per pass attempts. Orton is averaging 7.1 yards per pass attempts. That's more than Tom Brady averaged his first 3 years in a similar system, and more than Cassell last season. That's the same as Elway's career average, and around the same both Culter and Plummer averaged here. I'm sorry, but a lot of people are seeing negatives in Orton, that just really aren't there. There are no facts to back up the claim that "he can't make all the throws." Which is the funniest of abstract complaints.

I won't argue if someone says he isn't mobile enough, or that his release is a bit slow. This arm strength thing though and making all the throws nonsense is a myth as far as I can tell.

LOL. It's because he has excellent offensive weapons to target his 5 yard screens. 7.1 yards doesn't say shiate about his ability to make all the throws. Too funny...

JCMElway
12-10-2009, 08:46 AM
Then what happens with Orton and Brandstater?

It was only a few short months ago that more than a few people here were calling for Brandstater to start the season after his good preseason performance. So are we drafting a QB to groom down the road? Where does that leave Brandstater? I donít think McDaniels will bury him on the depth chart. As mentioned earlier, McDaniels specifically targeted him for a reason; heís not going to push him aside after one season.

As for Orton, he has to be signed, and heís not going to sign for a two year, low $ deal to placate people on the Mane. Heís going to want a 4 year deal at least, and heís not going to do it for backup money. If we donít sign him, then who starts next year? Maybe we can convince the Colts to trade us Peyton Manning? I donít know. I do know heís about to win more games in a single season than Cutler ever did. And if Cutler is doing lousy in Chicago because they donít know how to run an offense there, then itís unwiitngly being said that Orton canít be blamed for anything bad in Chicago too, which wouldnít be much anyway since he won 2/3 of his starts there.

To give up on a QB whoís in his first year in a complex system is a little shortsighted in my opinion, especially when heís about to take us to the playoffs!

All that you say is true, but we WILL draft a QB. Simms is dead meat, and this is a QB class laden with talent. We'll resign Orton, and then the competition for 2nd string QB will be the rook vs. Brandstater. There are plenty of QBs who never pan out in the NFL, so why would you lock yourself into just one guy, when you can bring in quality competition in a deep talent pool while only burning a 4th to 6th round selection?

Denver will draft a QB in the 2010 draft. I would bet anyone any amount of money on that.

Paladin
12-10-2009, 08:51 AM
"All the thorws". Isn't that a cop out of a "standard"? I doubt mmost here even know what "all the throws" means.....

baja
12-10-2009, 08:54 AM
Can he throw the left handed jake Plummer toss???

Hamrob
12-10-2009, 09:18 AM
"All the thorws". Isn't that a cop out of a "standard"? I doubt mmost here even know what "all the throws" means.....I'd like to see him be able to make the deep out throws and utilize the deep middle 1/3 of the field. He's not comfortable with those throws at all and when he does try them...he throws wounded ducks.

I think there's also the ability to throw the ball into tight windows...which Orton obviously cannot do consistently.

Cito Pelon
12-10-2009, 10:00 AM
I'll letcha know after the season is over . . . . . . . .

2KBack
12-10-2009, 11:21 AM
LOL. It's because he has excellent offensive weapons to target his 5 yard screens. 7.1 yards doesn't say shiate about his ability to make all the throws. Too funny...

What's funny is giving credit to the talent around Orton when he succeeds, yet giving credit to the QB when other guys do the same thing.

7.1 yards is is 7.1 yards, it's the production that matters. Why do all these QB's that are supposedly better have similar attempt stats? If they are making these deeper passes on a regular basis, they should have better stats. Bottom line is, they don't. That means that if they are attempting deeper passes more often that Orton, then they are also not completing them.

So what I'm hearing from you guys is that Kyle Orton is getting the same production as other good QB's, but by completing less risky passes and putting the ball into the hands of his playmakers. Imagine that, he stumbled upon the secret to being a SMART QUARTERBACK.