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Denver724
12-03-2009, 07:00 AM
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2009/12/02/denver-faces-dilemma-on-dumervil/

The NFL's sack leader plays for the Denver Broncos.

Whether he still plays there in 2010 remains to be seen.

Elvis Dumervil's rookie contract expires after the 2009 season. Without a new labor deal, however, he won't be eligible for unrestricted free agency.

So the Broncos can squat on his rights via a restricted free agency tender, which will entail a non-guaranteed salary far lower than the $10 million or so guaranteed that the franchise tender for defensive ends would entail.

But will even the highest possible tender offer keep teams away from Dumervil? The Vikings surely don't regret giving up a first-round pick and a third-round pick for Jared Allen -- and that's the exact price an interested team would have to pay for pilfering Dumervil.

He has 40 sacks in five games short of four seasons. In comparison, Texans defensive end Mario Williams -- the first pick in the 2006 draft -- has 35.5 career sacks in the same span.

So the Broncos might have to use the franchise tag to ensure that Dumervil stays put.

Or they can pay him.

The Broncos have two other key players who will be restricted free agents in 2010 absent a new labor deal -- receiver Brandon Marshall and quarterback Kyle Orton.

So with his push for a new deal really heating up, we've got one piece of advice for Dumervil when the Broncos head to Denver for a game on December 27.

Resist the urge to stomp on Mike Vick's leg.

Ramathorn
12-03-2009, 07:24 AM
It was MARCUS vick who stomped on dumervil's leg in that CFB game, not michael.

Man-Goblin
12-03-2009, 07:35 AM
Lock him up. He's one of the most effective and versatile defensive players the Broncos have ever had. Rare that a guy can get to the QB in any system.

Peoples Champ
12-03-2009, 07:47 AM
this is a good problem to have. having good players and figuring out how to sign them. I would rather have that then overpaid players that suck or too many players that suck.

oubronco
12-03-2009, 07:52 AM
Bowlen will have to open up the checkbook this offseason for Doom and Marshall

Rabb
12-03-2009, 07:54 AM
Lock him up. He's one of the most effective and versatile defensive players the Broncos have ever had. Rare that a guy can get to the QB in any system.

exactly

now that he is in a system that he flourishes in...he is our James Harrison, sign him

SouthStndJunkie
12-03-2009, 08:06 AM
Bowlen better pay him.

You keep 25 year old impact players.

He never complains and stays out of trouble.

Doom has 40 sacks in less than 4 years....in 2 different defensive schemes.

cutthemdown
12-03-2009, 08:06 AM
Since when do Broncos let young dominant players walk? That's never really been bowlens thing has it?

SouthStndJunkie
12-03-2009, 08:07 AM
You don't make the same mistake that Kansas City did with Jared Allen.

The entire Kansas City defense has 24 sacks in 27 games since they traded him.

Jared Allen has 27 sacks in those 27 games for the Vikings.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
12-03-2009, 08:07 AM
He will be locked up.

Orton will be locked up at a very reasonable price.

Marshall will be franchised.

SoDak Bronco
12-03-2009, 08:09 AM
I would argue that Jared Allen is a few steps above Elvis as far as complete defensive rushing specialist, Jared can play the run very well too. I really doubt a team would give up a 1st and a 3rd for Elvis.

cmhargrove
12-03-2009, 08:15 AM
I would argue that Jared Allen is a few steps above Elvis as far as complete defensive rushing specialist, Jared can play the run very well too. I really doubt a team would give up a 1st and a 3rd for Elvis.

Jared Allen may indeed be a better all around player, but not by much. The Vikings had to give up draft picks, then pay him. We already have Dumervil, so i'd say we are ahead.

The real deal is, if we want to win a superbowl, we already have some key components (like Dumervil and Marshall). You don't let those guys walk - pay your own and keep drafting well. Booth these guys should earn their next contract, especially since they have been underpaid thus far.

It's the third contract - when they are about 30 years old that needs to be reconsidered. That's when you usually pay for the past instead of the present.

SoDak Bronco
12-03-2009, 08:20 AM
Jared Allen may indeed be a better all around player, but not by much. The Vikings had to give up draft picks, then pay him. We already have Dumervil, so i'd say we are ahead.

The real deal is, if we want to win a superbowl, we already have some key components (like Dumervil and Marshall). You don't let those guys walk - pay your own and keep drafting well. Booth these guys should earn their next contract, especially since they have been underpaid thus far.

It's the third contract - when they are about 30 years old that needs to be reconsidered. That's when you usually pay for the past instead of the present.

Yeah good post, I agree we should keep him, i just don't think he should get Jared Allen money, but he will get paid, and he is well deserving.

Rabb
12-03-2009, 08:22 AM
I would argue that Jared Allen is a few steps above Elvis as far as complete defensive rushing specialist, Jared can play the run very well too. I really doubt a team would give up a 1st and a 3rd for Elvis.

that isn't the point (I believe), I think he meant in principle and as an example...it is fairly similar and I agree 100%

TheElusiveKyleOrton
12-03-2009, 08:26 AM
<object width="560" height="340"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/-uRzf7vNITg&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/-uRzf7vNITg&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="560" height="340"></embed></object>

Where's the dilemma? Pay thee man hees money.

fontaine
12-03-2009, 08:28 AM
Dumervil deserves that contract and given the way he dedicated himself this offseason to a better diet and conditioning he should be a Bronco for life.

Given the way he's been used this season as a DE/LB switching positions and moving all around the line he's argueably the most important player in the front 7 because what he has can't be replaced.

Rohirrim
12-03-2009, 08:30 AM
If I was forced to choose between Marshall and Dumervil, Doom wins.

ak1971
12-03-2009, 08:44 AM
<object width="560" height="340"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/-uRzf7vNITg&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/-uRzf7vNITg&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="560" height="340"></embed></object>

Where's the dilemma? Pay thee man hees money.

thats funny..I was thinking about the same clip.

missingnumber7
12-03-2009, 08:48 AM
If I was forced to choose between Marshall and Dumervil, Doom wins.

I second this. But I think we could find money to sign both of them.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
12-03-2009, 08:49 AM
I second this. But I think we could find money to sign both of them.

Agree with all of the above. Out of the two, I'd rather keep Doom.

But, I think that without Cutler's massive paycheck on our books, we should be able to keep both.

Tombstone RJ
12-03-2009, 09:05 AM
Of the three players, Orton, Marshall and Doom, I'd franchise the one that would cost the least to franchise (probably WR). Then I'd make the remaining two players priorities to sign.

Rigs11
12-03-2009, 09:13 AM
pay the man. he deserves it.

missingnumber7
12-03-2009, 09:17 AM
Of the three players, Orton, Marshall and Doom, I'd franchise the one that would cost the least to franchise (probably WR). Then I'd make the remaining two players priorities to sign.

How much cheaper is francising Doom as an OLB vs a DE?

Tombstone RJ
12-03-2009, 09:23 AM
How much cheaper is francising Doom as an OLB vs a DE?

Good question, probably a lot cheaper. The Broncos have to be fair and if they play the "your a OLB, not a DE" in order to save money by franchising Doom I think they are setting a very bad tone for the team.

meangene
12-03-2009, 09:29 AM
We need to make Doom priority one and IMO Orton is priority two. I don't think Orton will be a problem. Let's not forget Kuper as well since we will need to address LG and C already on the OL. Marshall I would be more willing to wait and see on - he will want ridiculous money and I would want to see what happens with the CBA and what his trade value might be after the season.

Beantown Bronco
12-03-2009, 09:29 AM
Good question, probably a lot cheaper.

Really not much of a difference in 2009: $8.9 mil to $8.3 mil

2009 Franchise/Transition Tag Levels

Quarterback

Franchise
$14.651m

Transition
$12.440m


Running Back

Franchise
$6.621m

Transition
$5.925m


Wide Receiver

Franchise
$9.884m

Transition
$8.393m


Tight End

Franchise
$4.462m

Transition
$4.065m


Offensive Linemen

Franchise
$8.451m

Transition
$7.744m


Kicker/Punter

Franchise
$2.483m

Transition
$2.264m


Defensive Tackle

Franchise
$6.058m

Transition
$5.45m


Defensive End

Franchise
$8.991m

Transition
$7.777m


Linebacker

Franchise
$8.304m

Transition
$7.480m


Safety

Franchise
$6.342m

Transition
$5.130m


Cornerback

Franchise
$9.957m

Transition
$8.374m

cmhargrove
12-03-2009, 09:30 AM
Are we really in payroll trouble?

I thought the Broncos cleaned a significant amount off the books this year. Why wouldn't / couldn't we resign all our needs (Orton, Kuper, Dumervil, Marshall)?

None of them seems too greedy yet, I don't see why we can't keep them all. I think Orton, Kuper, and Dumervil would sign team friendly deals, and i'll bet most anything that there is already an informal agreement on what Marshall will make.

We'll probably save a little more by cutting Simms.

I guess we'll see how the season finishes up before determining everyones value.

jhns
12-03-2009, 10:29 AM
If Orton demands a lot of money this offseason, I would just dump him. I would do everything possible to keep the other two. It will cost us less to sign them than what we used to spend on crap FAs every offseason. We will have to cut down on the FA signings this offseason, but it shouldn't be hard to sign both.

Popps
12-03-2009, 10:46 AM
Orton won't demand a ton of money, but you can rest assured Doom will. He deserves it, based on his sack stats. Sacks=big contracts for these guys. Doom is a complete player at OLB now, though. It's not like he's a specialist at this point.

To me, it's safe to invest the money in the guy.

Marshall? Well, you rolls the dice and you takes your chances...

bpc
12-03-2009, 10:51 AM
Doom is the biggest FA we could sign. Just get the man on a 7 year contract and let's go. He's worked his butt off since he's stepped foot in Denver. You reward that hard work and loyalty.

If Doom finishes his career in the 3-4, he's gonna have a good chance to eclipse 150 sacks.

BroncoMan4ever
12-03-2009, 11:23 AM
I would argue that Jared Allen is a few steps above Elvis as far as complete defensive rushing specialist, Jared can play the run very well too. I really doubt a team would give up a 1st and a 3rd for Elvis.

you don't think a team would give up a 1st and a 3rd, for a guy who has 40 sacks in 56 career games? that is almost a sack per game average.

Jared Allen may be a better all around DE, in that he can rush the passer as well as play the run really well. But Doom is the better straight up pass rusher. teams will pay out the ass for a guy who can give them 14 sacks a year. you just don't come across that kind of talent everyday.

look at Freeney. he is not much of a run stopper but he collects sacks, and he got paid huge cash. teams will pour money and draft picks to get guys like Doom. if all we do is tender him 1st and 3rd, he will be in a new city next season

BroncoMan4ever
12-03-2009, 11:29 AM
Are we really in payroll trouble?

I thought the Broncos cleaned a significant amount off the books this year. Why wouldn't / couldn't we resign all our needs (Orton, Kuper, Dumervil, Marshall)?

None of them seems too greedy yet, I don't see why we can't keep them all. I think Orton, Kuper, and Dumervil would sign team friendly deals, and i'll bet most anything that there is already an informal agreement on what Marshall will make.

We'll probably save a little more by cutting Simms.

I guess we'll see how the season finishes up before determining everyones value.

i agree. we were way under the cap before we purged the garbage on the roster. and then with the guys we brought in, we still didn't really break the bank. there is still a good amount of cash we can work with to get our own back for next season. add in guys like Champ, DJ, Graham, doing some restructuring and signing new deals to spread out the money we owe them, and others like Moss coming off the books, Simms and other crap being dumped and i see no reason we can't pay our guys.

also, on a side note, look at the Raiders, it seems like they drop major coin on new guys every season and are never above the cap.

SJ Bronco
12-03-2009, 11:33 AM
It's funny, cause he is the PERFECT build and ability set for the outside LB in this defense. I'm shocked that none of us, nor the previous coaching staff saw that. (See Derrick Thomas) The min I heard of the defensive switch it hit me like a ton of bricks, and then my wife and I raced to pick him in our fantasy leauge....weird how sometimes talent needs just the right opportunity to flourish (see bret farve, Tom Brady, and Emmit Smith)

~Crash~
12-03-2009, 12:03 PM
I say Kuper should be there in the high priorities but Doom should of been paid last year at this time of the year he actually is getting riped off . I would pay him now .

Orton and Marshal should be payed just not as much a priority IMO

cmhargrove
12-03-2009, 01:49 PM
I say Kuper should be there in the high priorities but Doom should of been paid last year at this time of the year he actually is getting riped off . I would pay him now .

Orton and Marshal should be payed just not as much a priority IMO

You never, ever, let guys like Marshall and Orton go unless you can find someone better to replace them with. You'll be hard pressed to find a better big man than Marshall. If we had a real "deep threat" receiver, Marshall's numbers might be even better.

And, let's just stop thinking we can go out and find anyone as good as Orton in the drop of a hat. He's making progress like the rest of the team, and he needs time in the pocket just like Manning, Brady, and Brees. Strengthen the LG and C position and Orton will do just fine...

Soul-Bronco
12-03-2009, 02:09 PM
imagine when we really get some play makers on the D-line Doom's sacks will sky rocket.

I love the effort from the D-line but put a beast like wilfork or hampton etc etc and doom could be scary !!!

UberBroncoMan
12-03-2009, 03:21 PM
Resigning our FA's will be more important than our draft this off-season.

Rabb
12-03-2009, 03:30 PM
imagine when we really get some play makers on the D-line Doom's sacks will sky rocket.

I love the effort from the D-line but put a beast like wilfork or hampton etc etc and doom could be scary !!!

can you imagine a Wilfork in our system...that would put us over the top IMO

Atwater His Ass
12-03-2009, 03:36 PM
As sad as it is to say, Orton has to be the #1 priority. #2 is getting a guy groomed to replace Orton.

Our QB situation is so dismal that if we lose Orton next season, it won't matter how many sacks Doom or anyone else gets next season.

oubronco
12-03-2009, 03:36 PM
i agree. we were way under the cap before we purged the garbage on the roster. and then with the guys we brought in, we still didn't really break the bank. there is still a good amount of cash we can work with to get our own back for next season. add in guys like Champ, DJ, Graham, doing some restructuring and signing new deals to spread out the money we owe them, and others like Moss coming off the books, Simms and other crap being dumped and i see no reason we can't pay our guys.

also, on a side note, look at the Raiders, it seems like they drop major coin on new guys every season and are never above the cap.

I don't think that Champ will redo his contract again he want's his money too

houghtam
12-03-2009, 03:58 PM
So let's say out of Champ, Doom, Marshall, and Orton, if you could only keep two, who would you keep? There are pros and cons for each, of course...

Champ - Getting up there in age, but still one of the NFL's elite corners.

Doom - Young guy, high production, but at one of the highest paid positions in the league, and you still have to wonder how long a smaller guy can keep it up.

Marshall - Has shown his worth on the field, but has also had a few problems off the field. How long can he stay out of trouble?

Orton - Not much more than a good game manager, but seems to be flourishing in the system that we have in place.

Bonus Question:

What do you most can't the least?

NFLBRONCO
12-03-2009, 04:24 PM
Easy Doom and BM

Popps
12-03-2009, 04:30 PM
Doom is the biggest FA we could sign. Just get the man on a 7 year contract and let's go. He's worked his butt off since he's stepped foot in Denver. You reward that hard work and loyalty.

If Doom finishes his career in the 3-4, he's gonna have a good chance to eclipse 150 sacks.

Yep.

He's done everything right. No holdout, no bitching, no off-field trouble. Just production.

This has to happen, and I trust it will.

rastaman
12-03-2009, 04:33 PM
Orton won't demand a ton of money, but you can rest assured Doom will. He deserves it, based on his sack stats. Sacks=big contracts for these guys. Doom is a complete player at OLB now, though. It's not like he's a specialist at this point.

To me, it's safe to invest the money in the guy.

Marshall? Well, you rolls the dice and you takes your chances...

Meh! Marshall rolls the dice, takes risk and changes he may suffer a career ending injury every Sunday!

Lord knows he's more susceptible to season or career ending injuries attempting to catch Orton's circus throws...where BMarsh is required to use his 36 inch plus vertical leap to haul in under or overthrown passes (One Handed). Thus exposing his body to a vicious horrific hits from opposing safeties, CB's, and linebackers. So you can cry me a river on the risks Bowlen/McDaniel's must take when it comes to signing to a new lucurative contract for Marshall.

Bowlen needs to realize that its only money.....may as well spend it if you want to keep the "Beast-Marshall" on your team.

Besides, had it not been for BMarsh.....McD and Bowlen would be 4-7 right now.

Think about it Pops....PAY THE BROTHA!:~ohyah!:

BroncoMan4ever
12-03-2009, 11:40 PM
I don't think that Champ will redo his contract again he want's his money too

i don't expect him to give back his money. but he wants to play for a team that he thinks can win, and McDaniels is proving right now to these vets that he is going to put out a competitor. Add in the Champ is going into the last year of his deal and will want a new 1. so the way i see it, he is going to get a new deal and his 15 million or so he is owed next season will be restructured into a new deal that keeps him here another 3-5 years.

extralife
12-04-2009, 01:26 AM
oh man, I'm getting a kick out of the suggestion of a supposed "dilemma" between signing Dumervile and Kyle Orton. Watch out, teams are going to be beating down the doors for Kyle. stick the franchise tag on him until the labor deal sorts itself out, give Kyle whatever you feel like giving him -- he's not going anywhere.

ZONA
12-04-2009, 01:34 AM
I would argue that Jared Allen is a few steps above Elvis as far as complete defensive rushing specialist, Jared can play the run very well too. I really doubt a team would give up a 1st and a 3rd for Elvis.

You're right, they won't. Even though he is getting sacks, they won't be able to get past the fact that he's only 5"11. It's not like he is a total beast like Harrison, but he could get there in a few years if he stays with Nolan.

extralife
12-04-2009, 02:03 AM
Elvis is a specialist--he's not a complete player. I'd equate him with, say, Robert Mathis.

BroncoMan4ever
12-04-2009, 11:27 AM
Elvis is a specialist--he's not a complete player. I'd equate him with, say, Robert Mathis.

right now, Elvis is probably the best pure pass rusher in the NFL, that alone would have teams willing to give up a 1st and 3rd for him if all we do is tender him. add in that he is quickly building a complete game around that specialty. he no longer is the liability in the run game he used to be. he is becoming an all around OLB

give the guy another year or 2 with Nolan, and he is an OLB in the mold of James Harrison.

BroncoMan4ever
12-04-2009, 11:33 AM
Meh! Marshall rolls the dice, takes risk and changes he may suffer a career ending injury every Sunday!

Lord knows he's more susceptible to season or career ending injuries attempting to catch Orton's circus throws...where BMarsh is required to use his 36 inch plus vertical leap to haul in under or overthrown passes (One Handed). Thus exposing his body to a vicious horrific hits from opposing safeties, CB's, and linebackers. So you can cry me a river on the risks Bowlen/McDaniel's must take when it comes to signing to a new lucurative contract for Marshall.



give me a break on that bull****. Orton circus throws, so many people sound so stupid when they are talking about Orton.

also, i don't hear people bitching with the Cardinals when Warner and Fitz entire gameplan is throw it up and let Fitz go get it. but when Orton and
Marshall do it, suddenly there is worry that Orton is going to get Marshall injured.

also, every single player who does his job in the NFL and sets foot on the field is risking injury. Marshall can get hurt just as easily blocking on a run play as he could going up for a high pass. in fact his entire game of being rough and never going down willingly puts him into areas of higher injury risk than an Orton pass.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
12-04-2009, 11:46 AM
Since when do Broncos let young dominant players walk? That's never really been bowlens thing has it?

They have let two young pass rushers go in the past, after 10+ sack seasons (Berry and Haywood). I think then it was more for cap reasons because we had so much money tied up in other big contracts we just couldn't sign them.

Elway777
12-04-2009, 11:52 AM
If they don't come to a new CBA then both Dumervil and Marshall would be Resticted free agent. Just give them first round tender offer then see want other teams offer them then the Broncos can match any offer. I might let Marshall go and take a 1 round and 3 round pick for Marshall. I think the Broncos will be drafting around the 10 pick and they could draft Dez Bryant with 10 pick then draft someone like Spikes or Qb with other first round pick.

chanesaw
12-04-2009, 01:12 PM
I can understand why the article also mentioned Marshall, but Orton doesn't really deserve to be mentioned with the other two. Orton is nowhere near the top players at his position, and should either be much much cheaper, or shown the door.

enjolras
12-04-2009, 01:41 PM
Am I the only one who gets really nervous at paying Dumervil that money? There have been long stretches where he has been tremendously ineffective. He doesn't move the pocket well (due to size). Once he's locked up he's done... no ability to really shed blocks. When he gets free, he's a complete beast, I'll give you that.

He's a really nice player to have, but he's no James Harrison or even a Jared Allen. He reminds me of the Demarcus Ware situation in Dallas. You almost have to pay him, but your locking a lot of money up in a player who doesn't really change the line of scrimmage very much.

It just makes me nervous.

watermock
12-04-2009, 02:29 PM
If we don't tag him and BM wiuth #!'s, we're crazy.

Anything other than toilet paper Orton will sign.

watermock
12-04-2009, 02:30 PM
Doom is great at his new position. As a 4-3 end, not so much.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
12-04-2009, 02:53 PM
Am I the only one who gets really nervous at paying Dumervil that money? There have been long stretches where he has been tremendously ineffective. He doesn't move the pocket well (due to size). Once he's locked up he's done... no ability to really shed blocks. When he gets free, he's a complete beast, I'll give you that.

He's a really nice player to have, but he's no James Harrison or even a Jared Allen. He reminds me of the Demarcus Ware situation in Dallas. You almost have to pay him, but your locking a lot of money up in a player who doesn't really change the line of scrimmage very much.

It just makes me nervous.

I don't know about this. The guy has freakishly long arms, and he's able to get off blocks really well. The problem is when he gets locked up by two guys.

He's a lot like Harrison, and he's younger. Plus this is his first year in the 3-4. Out of all four guys we need to resign (Orton, Kuper, Marshall, Doom), Doom is the guy I feel most comfortable with.