War is Peace

[Rohirrim]

I guess in Obama's mind, war is the threshold of peace. It takes 18 months of war to create peace? So, in 18 months, in Afghanistan, we'll be somewhere other than where we are now? Perhaps he believes that we need war in order to appreciate peace, if it ever comes, someday, down the road. Until then, he will follow Cheney's axiom of constant war. Bush shanghaied this country into Iraq with the same sort of pablum that Obama spewed last night. This time, perhaps we should all do ourselves a favor and question his argument. Here's a damn solid, point-by-point counter-argument right here:

President Obama justified the intensification of his commitment in Afghanistan by the fact that we are still fighting Al Qaeda. It was Al Qaeda that attacked the United States on September 11, 2001, he said, and the organization now operates in the border-region of Afghanistan and Pakistan. We therefore have a double reason for scouring the country of the remnants of the fanatical sect. For Pakistan has nuclear weapons, Al Qaeda wants to obtain such a weapon, and if it had one it would use it against the United States. Yet here occurred the first of several noticeable omissions. According to the president's national security adviser, James Jones, Al Qaeda's members now number as few as 100. The president also asserted -- on what evidence he did not say -- that Al Qaeda is locked in a stable alliance with the Taliban forces. Yet James Jones in the same remarks concluded that he does not "foresee the return of the Taliban" to power. Obama, then, was playing up the links between Al Qaeda and the Taliban in much the way his predecessor played up the supposed links between Al Qaeda and the Baath Party of Iraq; but, with Afghanistan today, as with Iraq in 2004, it is easy to put oneself in possession of facts that refute the claim.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-bromwich/the-afghanistan-parenthes_b_377141.html

Since the president's military argument does not hold up, I fear that he is now risking the lives of 30,000 Americans for his own political interests. It has that same ugly smell of Kissinger and Nixon extending Vietnam for their political interests. Note that Obama is posing the idea that our presence in Afghanistan should wrap up sometime around the elections of 2012. Wrapping it up now would create almost no political benefit, maybe the opposite. So, there's the political calculation. Or perhaps, we are now dealing with something even more disturbing; What the Greeks called hamartia, the tragic flaw. LBJ's was his belief that Vietnam was personal. What is Obama's?

At this point, one is struck, not for the first time, by a psychological oddity in Obama's makeup. He is almost convinced of the omnipotence of words. When once he has persuaded himself of a thing -- that it is true, or that it is plausible and might become true -- the words that embody his conviction have for him the quality of deeds already done. It did not work so happily with his spoken wish for a freeze of Israeli settlements; and he has seen the word falter on the brink of the deed, once more, in the wish for a comprehensive health care bill before the summer or before Thanksgiving. Still, his sense of the omnipotence of words was at work in his declared belief regarding the utility of an 18-month extension of the war.

Any way you shake it, Obama's arguments are pretty much the same as the arguments Bush used, and they do not hold up. So, we are left to wonder what is really up.

You know, something is happening, but you don't know what it is. Do you, Mr. Jones?
Bob Dylan

[Bob]

Is 1984 still required reading in HS? If not, it should be, before it is banned...

[Garcia Bronco]

1984 is just an effing book. It's like quoting Tyler Durden. Peace does require some degree of fear. Fear that you'll get your ass killed if you **** with us. Here's a quote from a non-fictional person that really existed and was actually a reformer. And unlike Orwell, actually had leadership experience as a US President.

"Speak softly and carry a big stick."

[Rohirrim]

1984 is just an effing book. It's like quoting Tyler Durden. Peace does require some degree of fear. Fear that you'll get your ass killed if you **** with us. Here's a quote from a non-fictional person that really existed and was actually a reformer. And unlike Orwell, actually had leadership experience as a US President.

"Speak softly and carry a big stick."

And the Constitution is "just a goddamned piece of paper." You say you have a college education, and yet, you make statements like "...just an effing book." That dog won't hunt.

[Garcia Bronco]

And the Constitution is "just a goddamned piece of paper." You say you have a college education, and yet, you make statements like "...just an effing book." That dog won't hunt.

And so is the bible. It's about belief. Not only does that dog hunt, but people living by this book are no more than conspiracy nuts looking for the pieces. It a self fulfilling prophecy.

The reality is peace ain't free, it ain't easy, and someone has to have the muscle to enforce it.

[Rohirrim]

And so is the bible. It's about belief. Not only does that dog hunt, but people living by this book are no more than conspiracy nuts looking for the pieces. It a self fulfilling prophecy.

The reality is peace ain't free, it ain't easy, and someone has to have the muscle to enforce it.

Living by this book? Man, you are impossible to talk to.

[Garcia Bronco]

Living by this book? Man, you are impossible to talk to.

You get it. don't play dumb.

Knowledge is Power, War is Peace, and so on

[Rohirrim]

You get it. don't play dumb.

Knowledge is Power, War is Peace, and so on

Try reading the article, for once.

[Bronx33]

Funny part is it took obama 90 days to come up with this master plan to tuck our tail between out legs and leave and the really stupid part is barack carter tells the enemy ( when we are going to start leaving!) is he a moron or what?

So basically the radical islamics will threaten the people telling them that we are leaving soon but they are not (just remember that) we have eyes everywhere you help the americans in anyway you and your family a dead. So basically obamas little plan is a big fat fail from before it even gets started, so either they will wait for us to leave then turn the whole country into terrorist training camp shyt hole or pick up the attacks and do as much damage as possiable knowing they get to say they won ( because we packed up left) just like russians, why the **** would he annouce a f***** date???.Who the **** side is he on anyways?

Also notice the date obama picks for withdrawl ( right around the elections) go figure always thinkng about the party in every decision also the troops know they can't do shyt in 18 months and know they are leaving anyways and will be just standing targets the whole time.

The generals ask for 40k and get 30 k? to be sent over a period of time? why not send all of them at once and try to get something done? why not send all the troops the damn generals ask for! if we are going to do this atleast try to do it RIGHT!! or just send everybody home right the f*** now! my guess is he really doesn't want to get anything done and sadly it's going to cost more lives so he can position himself politcally.

what a ****ing joke this guy is hes jimmy carter 2.0 with better speeches and a decent hook shot.

[Rohirrim]

If only we would have been so discriminating when Bush was spewing his lies.

[Bronx33]

Lets worry about the year 2009 ok roh :sunshine:

[ghwk]

1984 is just an effing book. It's like quoting Tyler Durden. Peace does require some degree of fear. Fear that you'll get your ass killed if you **** with us. Here's a quote from a non-fictional person that really existed and was actually a reformer. And unlike Orwell, actually had leadership experience as a US President.

"Speak softly and carry a big stick."

Only works against a nation state which we haven't been fighting in the mid east since Saddam was tossed. So yes it can work then. One of the Soviet Generals involved in the Russian effort back in the 80's was quoted today as saying this is a lost effort (they got their butts kicked in case you don't remember). No one can win there unless you are Genghis Khan.

[Rigs11]

Funny part is it took obama 90 days to come up with this master plan to tuck our tail between out legs and leave and the really stupid part is barack carter tells the enemy ( when we are going to start leaving!) is he a moron or what?

So basically the radical islamics will threaten the people telling them that we are leaving soon but they are not (just remember that) we have eyes everywhere you help the americans in anyway you and your family a dead. So basically obamas little plan is a big fat fail from before it even gets started, so either they will wait for us to leave then turn the whole country into terrorist training camp shyt hole or pick up the attacks and do as much damage as possiable knowing they get to say they won ( because we packed up left) just like russians, why the **** would he annouce a ****** date???.Who the **** side is he on anyways?

Also notice the date obama picks for withdrawl ( right around the elections) go figure always thinkng about the party in every decision also the troops know they can't do shyt in 18 months and know they are leaving anyways and will be just standing targets the whole time.

The generals ask for 40k and get 30 k? to be sent over a period of time? why not send all of them at once and try to get something done? why not send all the troops the damn generals ask for! if we are going to do this atleast try to do it RIGHT!! or just send everybody home right the **** now! my guess is he really doesn't want to get anything done and sadly it's going to cost more lives so he can position himself politcally.

what a ****ing joke this guy is hes jimmy carter 2.0 with better speeches and a decent hook shot.

You sadi the same damn thing about iraq.:welcome:

[Bob]

You get it. don't play dumb.

Knowledge is Power, War is Peace, and so on

I will just say that 1984 is a very good book, much of it does seem prophetic, and it can help young folks become more aware of the subversion/misdirection the government uses at times... which is healthy for folks to be on the look out for...

[Bronx33]

You sadi the same damn thing about iraq.:welcome:



You sir are wrong and please quit making shyt up it serves no purpose other than make you look foolish.

[mhgaffney]

1984 is just an effing book. It's like quoting Tyler Durden. Peace does require some degree of fear. Fear that you'll get your ass killed if you **** with us. Here's a quote from a non-fictional person that really existed and was actually a reformer. And unlike Orwell, actually had leadership experience as a US President.

"Speak softly and carry a big stick."

Your non fictional person (Teddy Roosevelt) was one of the original US imperialists.

I suggest you review what he did in the Philippines. Not pretty.

I prefer the following quote by one of my teachers, Dr Elizabeth Kubler-Ross, author of ON DEATH AND DYING and other boooks. She said "We are in a race between love and fear."

Now that gets it.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

If only we would have been so discriminating when Bush was spewing his lies.

Exactly.

Anyone who questioned Bush's decisions was denounced as a "traitor" or an "America hater" by the same right-wing pinheads who are criticizing Obama here.

[Rohirrim]

Exactly.

Anyone who questioned Bush's decisions was denounced as a "traitor" or an "America hater" by the same right-wing pinheads who are criticizing Obama here.

Their criticisms are meaningless for a simple reason; They criticize him no matter what he does. So, are their criticisms based on valid disagreements, or simply apish ideology? I go for the latter. No matter what decision Obama made here, the usual suspects would come out and attack.

[mhgaffney]

We need to convince the Nobel committee to take back the peace prize -- and give it to someone else -- who really stands for peace.

[ak1971]

Their criticisms are meaningless for a simple reason; They criticize him no matter what he does. So, are their criticisms based on valid disagreements, or simply apish ideology? I go for the latter. No matter what decision Obama made here, the usual suspects would come out and attack.

You could say the same thing on the flip side with most of the leftys here. (Not lumping you into this one Ro, as your takes are pretty well thought out.)

[Garcia Bronco]

I will just say that 1984 is a very good book, much of it does seem prophetic, and it can help young folks become more aware of the subversion/misdirection the government uses at times... which is healthy for folks to be on the look out for...

Absolutely. I just think people forget that it's fiction.

[Garcia Bronco]

Only works against a nation state which we haven't been fighting in the mid east since Saddam was tossed. So yes it can work then. One of the Soviet Generals involved in the Russian effort back in the 80's was quoted today as saying this is a lost effort (they got their butts kicked in case you don't remember). No one can win there unless you are Genghis Khan.

We could win there if we wanted to. We aren't the Russians. But the
mission at this point is to leave.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Their criticisms are meaningless for a simple reason; They criticize him no matter what he does. So, are their criticisms based on valid disagreements, or simply apish ideology? I go for the latter. No matter what decision Obama made here, the usual suspects would come out and attack.

Yep.

It was crystal clear that this was going to be their "strategery" even before Obama was inaugurated. These morons are always about party/ideology before country.

[ghwk]

We could win there if we wanted to. We aren't the Russians. But the
mission at this point is to leave.

Really?? What makes you think a 1000 years of history in that region doesn't apply to us?

[Fedaykin]

Absolutely. I just think people forget that it's fiction.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irony

[Dukes]

We need to convince the Nobel committee to take back the peace prize -- and give it to someone else -- who really stands for peace.

You should write a book about it.

[Garcia Bronco]

Really?? What makes you think a 1000 years of history in that region doesn't apply to us?

We could kill every living thing in that region if we wished. If you call that winning, but there damn sure wouldn't be anyone left to fight.

[Garcia Bronco]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irony

It's a good book for the reasons Bob stated, but lets not act like it's what is going to happen in our world.

[Bob]

Really?? What makes you think a 1000 years of history in that region doesn't apply to us?

Not saying we should but if there was the will to destroy for all time we could through the use of nukes...

[mhgaffney]

We may yet see the use of nukes --

and if it happens, all bets are off. You can scratch at least one US city. Which would you prefer? New York? Seattle? Washington DC?

I'd be willing to give up Miami or LA.

(Sorry LABF)

[mhgaffney]

or better yet -- Dallas...

[Rohirrim]

America’s military spending in Afghanistan alone next year will now exceed the entire official military budget of every other country in the world.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/03/opinion/03kristof.html?_r=1

When John Kerry famously asked about Vietnam, "How do you ask a man to be the last man to die for a mistake?" he was right to suggest that Vietnam was, in part, an honest Cold War "mistake" (although as the Johnson tapes also show, it was also, in part, a deliberately craven effort to protect a president's "strong" credentials). Afghanistan is different - we've been there 8 years, so the awful consequences of a new escalation (and continued occupation) that's nonetheless not truly designed to achieve goals isn't some innocent "mistake." It's almost entirely deliberate. And so the question for President Obama on Afghanistan is simply "How do you ask a man to be the last man to die for your political image?"
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-sirota/how-do-you-ask-someone-to_b_378559.html

A case can be made for a serious -- meaning larger and more protracted -- surge. A better case can be made for a radically reduced investment of resources and prestige in that forlorn country. Obama has not made a convincing case for his tentative surgelet.

George Orwell said that the quickest way to end a war is to lose it. But Obama's halfhearted embrace of a half-baked nonstrategy -- briefly feinting toward the Taliban (or al-Qaeda, or a "syndicate of terror") while lunging for the exit ramp -- makes a protracted loss probable.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/12/02/AR2009120202044.html

We are not fighting an insurgency in Afghanistan; we are fighting a resistance. This is more than just the political semantics of calling the bad guys “terrorists” and the good guys “freedom fighters.” In an insurgency, there is a government with some degree of legitimacy, popular support, and authority facing a cohesive internal opponent seeking to take power in order to run the country in a radically different way. In a resistance, real power is held by an occupying force that is opposed by a variety of groups united only in their resistance to foreign occupation. While Afghanistan has some elements of both, it is predominantly a resistance, not an insurgency. That bodes poorly for our strategy, since an insurgency can be defeated by force of arms, accommodation, or negotiation, while a resistance can only end when the occupying army leaves.
http://www.newser.com/off-the-grid/post/345/obama-purge-the-urge-to-surge.html

[Fedaykin]

It's a good book for the reasons Bob stated, but lets not act like it's what is going to happen in our world.

*whoooosh*

That's the sound of the point flying right over your head....

[Garcia Bronco]

*whoooosh*

That's the sound of the point flying right over your head....

I got what you posted. However what you posted didn't apply.

[Rohirrim]

CIA to expand drone attacks in Pakistan
The political consensus in support of the drone program, its antiseptic, high-tech appeal and its secrecy have obscured just how radical it is. For the first time in history, a civilian intelligence agency is using robots to carry out a military mission, selecting people for killing in a country where the United States is not officially at war.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/04/world/asia/04drones.html?_r=1&ref=global-home

[The Lone Bolt]

We may yet see the use of nukes --

and if it happens, all bets are off. You can scratch at least one US city. Which would you prefer? New York? Seattle? Washington DC?

I'd be willing to give up Miami or LA.

(Sorry LABF)

LA tops my list. Phoenix would be no great loss either.;D

[Rohirrim]

We may yet see the use of nukes --

and if it happens, all bets are off. You can scratch at least one US city. Which would you prefer? New York? Seattle? Washington DC?

I'd be willing to give up Miami or LA.

(Sorry LABF)

And when you got to see those smoking, burned bodies of innocent men, women and children lying in the streets you could cry out in victory - Finally, those stinking Americans got what they deserved!

[watermock]

Your damn right Kisinger has his bloody hands in this..that's a known fact.