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View Full Version : Robert Ayers looks fat, lazy, and slow


fontaine
12-01-2009, 11:24 AM
I've tried to hold off posting this thread for a while because I was really hoping that with increasing playing time, Ayers would finally show me something.

Except he hasn't. Ayers will occassionally flash one good move and make a quick burst to the QB or hold the point of attack in the perimeter against the run. It shows you why Denver thoughtly highly enough of him to draft him in the 1st.

But most of the rest is just trash. The guy just takes plays off. And he stands out because the rest of the front 7 really hustle. His first step is usually pretty slow, he doesn't finish tackles, hasn't shown any real pass rush moves, and worst of all he just doesn't hustle towards the ball!

That more than anything else really pisses me off. I see guys like Holiday who's ancient, Peterson who doesn't really have a ton of talent, or other limited players and the one thing they're all doing is swarming to the ball carrier against the run, and really fighting hard in the trenches in pass rush.

Except Ayers who routinely just gives up on plays, doesn't flow to the ball carrier and looks plain lazy.

There's a reason why this guy was inactive, even though injury free (he played against the Giants) and Moss was activated in his stead who's an even bigger douche.

I hope somehow the light comes on for this guy, but right now it's an issue of heart and effort at which he's failing from what I've seen.

Doggcow
12-01-2009, 11:27 AM
Doom wasn't special until this year...

vancejohnson82
12-01-2009, 11:28 AM
Doom wasn't special until this year...

that's not true...he was a bright spot last year too

Broncosfreak_56
12-01-2009, 11:28 AM
Doom wasn't special until this year...

But he did have 8.5 sacks his rookie year.

Ambiguous
12-01-2009, 11:33 AM
that's not true...he was a bright spot last year too

Still, not his rookie year.

fontaine
12-01-2009, 11:34 AM
Doom was ALWAYS about effort.

But what does he have to do with Ayers?

Look, I'm just going by what I see. I see guys like Reid etc who are naturally LESS talented than Ayers put in serious effort, sometimes against double teams to fight through blockers.

Ayers does the opposite. And it's not like he has outside contain or is protecting the flat, in the plays I've seen he just looks hesitant, slow getting of the line (in a two or three point stance), and doesn't fight blockers.

DBroncos4life
12-01-2009, 11:34 AM
Still, not his rookie year.

He had 8.5 sacks his rookie year! I think that is showing something.

bap454
12-01-2009, 11:36 AM
All I have to say is....Orakpo!!

fontaine
12-01-2009, 11:38 AM
And I'm not down on Ayers because of his lack of sacks. I understand he's got a long way to go before developing as a pass rusher.

I'm talking about what he was supposed to be good at from Day 1. Which is fighting hard against the run game, holding the point of attack and so on. None of which he's desplayed really in any sustained period of play.

In short I'm looking at the ONLY player who STANDS out in our front 7 because he's not showing the hustle, the effort that the others guys are.

oubronco
12-01-2009, 11:38 AM
Light a fire under his mother****ing ass

Tombstone RJ
12-01-2009, 11:40 AM
I have not watched Ayers all that closely so I can't really comment. The speed of the game may be slowing him down and making him hesitant. It's really up to Nolan and the coaching staff to get this kid's head in the right place. From the outside looking in, we can make a lot of assumptions but I'm not sure if work ethic is something we can know at this point and time.

bpc
12-01-2009, 11:41 AM
I'm not down on Ayers. He's learning the ropes. He's already showed me more in a few games than Moss or Crowder did over a few years.

It just takes time. Simmer down.

peacepipe
12-01-2009, 11:41 AM
Doom wasn't special until this year...
8.5 sacks as a rookie,He also had 12.5 sacks his sophmore yr. As a matter of FACT, he only had 1 bad yr. he's averageing 10 sacks a season and he's not even done with his 4th season.

DarkHorse
12-01-2009, 11:44 AM
8.5 sacks as a rookie,He also had 12.5 sacks his sophmore yr. As a matter of FACT, he only had 1 bad yr. he's averageing 10 sacks a season and he's not even done with his 4th season.

That means he's mediocre here at the mane.

BroncoBen
12-01-2009, 11:50 AM
...........

Except Ayers who routinely just gives up on plays, doesn't flow to the ball carrier and looks plain lazy.

.......

I hope somehow the light comes on for this guy, but right now it's an issue of heart and effort at which he's failing from what I've seen.

Well I give Ayers a 'Pass' for this season, the guy is a 'Rookie'. Also you have to figure he was behind the learning curb (by his agents accord) when he reported late to camp.

Most 'Rookies' take more than a few weeks to perform at a high level.

But I've seen him contribute, didn't he force a fumble and also return a fumble for a TD.

crush17
12-01-2009, 11:52 AM
Not only is he a rookie, but he came out as a Junior didn't he? He had one good season at Tennessee so I am not too quick to get on his case. The fact that he didn't dress for the Chargers game does worry me though...

Doggcow
12-01-2009, 11:52 AM
8.5 sacks as a rookie,He also had 12.5 sacks his sophmore yr. As a matter of FACT, he only had 1 bad yr. he's averageing 10 sacks a season and he's not even done with his 4th season.

26 sacks in 3 seasons does not compute to 10 sacks a season....

1 out of 3 years being bad, still computes to a D grade.

"ONLY one bad year" Might be a better argument for someone with more than 3 years of work lol

Doggcow
12-01-2009, 11:53 AM
That means he's mediocre here at the mane.

as my above post says.... Hope you don't stress your kids out too much pushing them for those D's

Drek
12-01-2009, 11:55 AM
Doom was ALWAYS about effort.

But what does he have to do with Ayers?

Look, I'm just going by what I see. I see guys like Reid etc who are naturally LESS talented than Ayers put in serious effort, sometimes against double teams to fight through blockers.

Ayers does the opposite. And it's not like he has outside contain or is protecting the flat, in the plays I've seen he just looks hesitant, slow getting of the line (in a two or three point stance), and doesn't fight blockers.

He's hesitant because he played nothing but DL, and about as much DT as DE, while in college. He's now trying to convert to OLB in a different front, and its having some growing pains.

He had some real bright spots in some other games this year, collapsing the pocket on more than a few occasions to help Doom get a sack. He's still very young and he's already playing significant snaps. In time he'll likely emerge as more of a play maker.

meangene
12-01-2009, 11:57 AM
I think he is developing just fine. There is always a learning curve and he is being converted from a DE to OLB. I notice him flashing all the time - there was an article not too long ago about how what he is being asked to do does not always show up in the stats. Early on, he looked like he was thinking too much but, lately, he seems to be getting more instinctive. I expect big things from him next year.

Lev Vyvanse
12-01-2009, 11:57 AM
as my above post says.... Hope you don't stress your kids out too much pushing them for those D's

You should probably leave someones kids out of an argument about a game.

DarkHorse
12-01-2009, 11:58 AM
Trade Dumervil - he's mediocre and show's no growth.


Hilarious!

fontaine
12-01-2009, 12:00 PM
I'm not talking about the complexity of the game, the mental learning curve, or adjustment period etc etc.

I'm talking about basic football 101.

1. His burst/explosiveness at the snap - Sluggish
2. His hand placement/leverage against blockers - non existent.
3. His effort and hustle and chasing ball carriers - not there, takes plays off.
4. His ability to fight through blockers - nope.

In other words, the very basics that apply to every scheme, every player along the front 7.

Someone mentioned that fumble recovery for a TD. He didn't force a fumble but was stoned on that play by the tackle and just ended up being the only guy aroung that was upright to run towards the fumble.

peacepipe
12-01-2009, 12:02 PM
26 sacks in 3 seasons does not compute to 10 sacks a season....

1 out of 3 years being bad, still computes to a D grade.

"ONLY one bad year" Might be a better argument for someone with more than 3 years of work lol Well aren't you the cherry picker, He also has 14 sacks this(his 4th)season. unless the NFL has figured out a way to take away sacks ,he's avg 10 sacks a season. 8.5,12.5 are very good numbers to put up your 1st 2 seasons at his height & weight. He's only had 1 bad season.

Doggcow
12-01-2009, 12:04 PM
I'm not talking about the complexity of the game, the mental learning curve, or adjustment period etc etc.

I'm talking about basic football 101.

1. His burst/explosiveness at the snap - Sluggish
2. His hand placement/leverage against blockers - non existent.
3. His effort and hustle and chasing ball carriers - not there, takes plays off.
4. His ability to fight through blockers - nope.

In other words, the very basics that apply to every scheme, every player along the front 7.

Someone mentioned that fumble recovery for a TD. He didn't force a fumble but was stoned on that play by the tackle and just ended up being the only guy aroung that was upright to run towards the fumble.

Didn't he only play like 1 or 2 years in college and came out early? Come on man.

Doggcow
12-01-2009, 12:06 PM
Well aren't you the cherry picker, He also has 14 sacks this(his 4th)season. unless the NFL has figured out a way to take away sacks ,he's avg 10 sacks a season. 8.5,12.5 are very good numbers to put up your 1st 2 seasons at his height & weight. He's only had 1 bad season.

Wow, my whole point was he wasn't an elite player UNTIL this year, thus, this year isn't relevant to the argument. I never said he wasn't good this year, in fact, I was saying this was his breakout year (obviously).

In the same vein, this is his only really GOOD year, before 2009 he was a journeyman with decent potential.

You're the one grasping at straws.

HorseHead
12-01-2009, 12:07 PM
Look at a couple of guys on the Giants..granted, they didn't show up the other night, but Tuck comes to mind, Kiawanuka as well..it took them a couple of years..

Just think, we almost had Tuck...

fontaine
12-01-2009, 12:09 PM
Didn't he only play like 1 or 2 years in college and came out early? Come on man.

How many years of college do you need to consistently show hustle and effort?

Beantown Bronco
12-01-2009, 12:10 PM
Dumervil has quickly become one of the best in the league at what he does. He is the exception to the rule. Big time. If we're going to start grading every draft pick with the expectation that they pan out as well and as quickly as he did, then we're going to be disappointed 99% of the time.

Tombstone RJ
12-01-2009, 12:11 PM
Wow, my whole point was he wasn't an elite player UNTIL this year, thus, this year isn't relevant to the argument. I never said he wasn't good this year, in fact, I was saying this was his breakout year (obviously).

You're the one grasping at straws.

Your both correct in that 26 sacks in 3 seasons does not equate to 10 sacks a year, however, 40 sacks in 4 seasons does (which is where Doom is at now).

IMHO, Doom has been one of the few bright spots on the Broncos defensive line the last few years. He may not have been an elite pass rusher the last 3 years but he's been the best the Broncos had to offer and that is saying a lot.

bpc
12-01-2009, 12:11 PM
That means he's mediocre here at the mane.

The underwriting on most of these posts should read: "if shanahan drafted them, they must suck."

fontaine
12-01-2009, 12:15 PM
Before this thread degenerates any further (trading draft picks, comparing him to Doom), I basically want to say that you don't need to be a veteran to show determination, hustling after ball carriers (in other words chasing down plays sideline to sideline), and basic effort.

I'm not trying to convince anyone or even say this was a bad draft pick. I don't care about the pick because it's done, it's water under the bridge.

The problem I have is when he takes plays OFF.

The next game try this. Watch our DL and the guys that line up along the scrimmage. Look out for number 56.

1. How quickly/explosively does he get off the line?
2. Does he aggressively push upfield on passing plays and show a non stop motor?
3. Does he chase after the play?

All really simple things that you don't need to be a 10 year veteran to do. Again basic football.

Let me know what you see?

_Oro_
12-01-2009, 12:16 PM
Or in the case of Moreno and Ayers, "if McD drafted them, they must suck"

wolf754life
12-01-2009, 12:21 PM
jarvis moss was a bust, not this guy..............

epic fail thread

GeniusatWork
12-01-2009, 12:27 PM
Doom wasn't special until this year...

Doom was good immediately where did you get that from? Ayers hasn't done anything, unfortuneately.

SouthStndJunkie
12-01-2009, 12:28 PM
I stated before the draft that I was not at all sold on Robert Ayers....his production did not meet what I am looking for in a first round pick.

I don't feel like arguing about it on here again....I have heard all the reasons, position change, needed time to adjust in college, playing time, blah, blah, blah.

Pass rushing can be honed and refined, but in many ways is an inherent trait....you were born to get to the QB or you weren't.

I am big on production in college and he only had 9 sacks in 48 college games played.

I did not expect him to dominate this year....but 14 tackles and 0 sacks is pretty pedestrian production.

I don't think he will be a complete bust, but I also don't see him being a disruptive and dominating player.

SouthStndJunkie
12-01-2009, 12:30 PM
Doom wasn't special until this year...

Doom has put pretty consistent pressure on the QB from day one....but he has kicked it up to an all-pro level this year.

DBroncos4life
12-01-2009, 12:33 PM
I stated before the draft that I was not at all sold on Robert Ayers....his production did not meet what I am looking for in a first round pick.

I don't feel like arguing about it on here again....I have heard all the reasons, position change, needed time to adjust in college, playing time, blah, blah, blah.

Pass rushing can be honed and refined, but in many ways is an inherent trait....you were born to get to the QB or you weren't.

I am big on production in college and he only had 9 sacks in 48 college games played.

I did not expect him to dominate this year....but 14 tackles and 0 sacks is pretty pedestrian production.

I don't think he will be a complete bust, but I also don't see him being a disruptive and dominate player.

Its funny I went back into the draft forum and there was a number of posters that didn't want Denver to draft him prior to the draft. They all had the same things to say about him as you did.

SoDak Bronco
12-01-2009, 12:36 PM
All I have to say is....Orakpo!!

Orakpo was drafted before we selected Ayers. Robert will be fine, he is playing a new position for him, and he is a rookie. I'm glad they have the confidence to play him in the nickle packages. He drew a holding penalty against the Giants and is usually in good position holding the edges, has been really close to sacking the Qb numerous times.

fontaine
12-01-2009, 12:44 PM
The guy does show up occasionally with good plays but there just as many examples where he gives up on a play, or simply walks, yes walks, out of this stance around the tackle, not even trying.

jarvis moss was a bust, not this guy..............

epic fail thread

Did I say anywhere on this thread he was a bust?

But thanks anyway.

yerner
12-01-2009, 12:45 PM
Just more horse****. He's played part time in 11 games. Once it starts to slow down all those problems you talk about go away. He just needs reps. Mayock said three years.

Beantown Bronco
12-01-2009, 12:49 PM
The guy does show up occasionally with good plays but there just as many examples where he gives up on a play, or simply walks, yes walks, out of this stance around the tackle, not even trying.


He is probably just doing his Randy Moss impersonation.

Anyone else see that joker last night. Mopey Moss was back in full effect, half-@ssing routes and barely jogging around at half speed yesterday. It was great.

Let the Pats meltdown begin.

fontaine
12-01-2009, 12:49 PM
He's hesitant because he played nothing but DL, and about as much DT as DE, while in college. He's now trying to convert to OLB in a different front, and its having some growing pains.

He had some real bright spots in some other games this year, collapsing the pocket on more than a few occasions to help Doom get a sack. He's still very young and he's already playing significant snaps. In time he'll likely emerge as more of a play maker.

I hope so but he's not exclusively working in as a LB. He's also lined up as a DE in a three point stance when we go 4-3.

Pony Boy
12-01-2009, 01:03 PM
Mario Williams had 4.5 sacks his first year and the had 14 his second year........ just saying......

kappys
12-01-2009, 01:09 PM
I'm not talking about the complexity of the game, the mental learning curve, or adjustment period etc etc.

I'm talking about basic football 101.

1. His burst/explosiveness at the snap - Sluggish
2. His hand placement/leverage against blockers - non existent.
3. His effort and hustle and chasing ball carriers - not there, takes plays off.
4. His ability to fight through blockers - nope.

In other words, the very basics that apply to every scheme, every player along the front 7.

Someone mentioned that fumble recovery for a TD. He didn't force a fumble but was stoned on that play by the tackle and just ended up being the only guy aroung that was upright to run towards the fumble.

Interesting. I wouldn't say I've noticed #1 and #2 being too big a problem. In fact I would say that when he's made good plays those have been his strengths.

However the remaining 2 criticism do seem valid. Admittedly I haven't watched the games focused on Ayers at all but hustle is usually easy to see. If he isn't flowing to the play either there is no hustle or he isn't separating from his blocker. Both are real concerns.

I for one am not willing to call him a bust yet. Unlike Jarvis he does seem to at least make 1 or 2 big plays a game when he's in which Moss didn't do at all. Poor effort though deserves a benching.

SoDak Bronco
12-01-2009, 01:13 PM
The guy does show up occasionally with good plays but there just as many examples where he gives up on a play, or simply walks, yes walks, out of this stance around the tackle, not even trying.



Did I say anywhere on this thread he was a bust?

But thanks anyway.

Well you said he looks fat, lazy, and slow...you just as well said he is a bust

bloodsunday
12-01-2009, 01:15 PM
I think this is a very fair point. That said, it's too early to draw much from it.

I'll take a couple of examples from the team that is best adept at drafting talent... the Steelers. It took them demoting and publicly (via a game day inactive) embarrassing Mendenhal to get him to respond.

And maybe a more accurate comparison is their two young LBs in Timmons and Woodley. Of the two Woodley showed more flash his rookie year, but both have been adapting to moving from DE in college to LB in the pros. Both took a little time, and both are blossoming in their 3rd seasons (Timmons injuries aside).

So let's hope that Ayers can follow a pattern like that. Perhaps next year he improves and in his 3rd year he's ready to be a great player. But yeah, he's definitely not making a huge contribution right now. But I think that is rare in the NFL, in particular when switching positions.

DBroncos4life
12-01-2009, 01:20 PM
Just more horse****. He's played part time in 11 games. Once it starts to slow down all those problems you talk about go away. He just needs reps. Mayock said three years.

Too bad the mayans only gave us two years ;D

outdoor_miner
12-01-2009, 01:31 PM
I just get the feeling that the lack of effort you are seeing is more of a case of over-thinking. I believe he is so concerned about being in the right place at the right time that he is not able to just go out and play aggressively.

I agree, though, that he's been pretty much a non-factor. I thought around games 4 - 6, he started showing some flashes like he would be able to make a nice contribution this year, but he's basically disappeared since that time (with the exception of the fumble return, which wasn't exactly anything spectacular on his part). He looks to me like he has the tools to succeed, though... The big thing I've noticed is his apparent strength. Hopefully, the coaches can bring out the best in him.

uplink
12-01-2009, 01:36 PM
I think he is not playing right now so he can rest for the end of the season. He is a rookie not used to playing 16 games. He has been close on a number of sacks but Doom etc. just got there a split second sooner.
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Irish Stout
12-01-2009, 01:52 PM
Doggcow - to call Doom a journey man NFL player shows how truly miserable our D line was the last three years. Doom was almost our only pass rusher last year, but he only got 5 sacks... perhaps cause he was the only one the Olines needed to worry about. 26 sacks in his first three years is not bad and actually pretty decent... had he any help rushing the passer the last two years you might have seen more sacks.

That being said, part of why Doom is getting to the QB more this year is the help he is getting from the likes of Ayers, Reid, Andra Davis, McBean, and Holiday. The system and the players are working way better this year than last and as they continue to improve you will see all of them getting to the QB mroe and more often.

One other thought on Elvis - he is held almost every other play. Like really really blatant holding. It is hardly ever called and I can't figure out why. In the Ravens game there was one time that Elvis was behind Flacco, arms outstretched towards him and the Tackle was holding him back by his helmet and neck collar. You see it all the time if you watch Elvis... saw it 3 times in the NYG game.

Broncoman13
12-01-2009, 01:54 PM
Just more horse****. He's played part time in 11 games. Once it starts to slow down all those problems you talk about go away. He just needs reps. Mayock said three years.

Mayock also swallowed Culter's load... says plenty about Mayock right?

cabronco
12-01-2009, 01:54 PM
Well according to poster meangene, I notice him flashing all the time , must of been when he didnt dress for the Charger game, or not. Its disturbing nonetheless. Ha!

Beantown Bronco
12-01-2009, 01:58 PM
Hey Ayers:

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cabronco
12-01-2009, 02:00 PM
Mayock also swallowed Culter's load... says plenty about Mayock right?


Thats for sure..Dude was /is sickening to watch when he swings from JC nuts. He had me fooled that he was such a genuis at evaluating talent, until the Cutler is a Franchise God thing ..

bowtown
12-01-2009, 02:14 PM
Doggcow - to call Doom a journey man NFL player shows how truly miserable our D line was the last three years. Doom was almost our only pass rusher last year, but he only got 5 sacks... perhaps cause he was the only one the Olines needed to worry about. 26 sacks in his first three years is not bad and actually pretty decent... had he any help rushing the passer the last two years you might have seen more sacks.

That being said, part of why Doom is getting to the QB more this year is the help he is getting from the likes of Ayers, Reid, Andra Davis, McBean, and Holiday. The system and the players are working way better this year than last and as they continue to improve you will see all of them getting to the QB mroe and more often.

One other thought on Elvis - he is held almost every other play. Like really really blatant holding. It is hardly ever called and I can't figure out why. In the Ravens game there was one time that Elvis was behind Flacco, arms outstretched towards him and the Tackle was holding him back by his helmet and neck collar. You see it all the time if you watch Elvis... saw it 3 times in the NYG game.

It's really unbelievable. I realize that everyone holds, but because Doom is so short it really makes it apparent. Tackles have learned that a good way to neutralize him is to just stuff their hands up under his helmet and lift, it happens all the time and it is so blatant that I can't believe it doesn't get called more.

Tombstone RJ
12-01-2009, 02:19 PM
Orakpo was drafted before we selected Ayers. Robert will be fine, he is playing a new position for him, and he is a rookie. I'm glad they have the confidence to play him in the nickle packages. He drew a holding penalty against the Giants and is usually in good position holding the edges, has been really close to sacking the Qb numerous times.

I'm pretty sure we took Ayers while Orakpo was still on the board. In fact, if I remember correctly, Washington took Orakpo the next pick after the Broncos took Ayers. I may be wrong about this...

bowtown
12-01-2009, 02:25 PM
I'm pretty sure we took Ayers while Orakpo was still on the board. In fact, if I remember correctly, Washington took Orakpo the next pick after the Broncos took Ayers. I may be wrong about this...

You are wrong. Washington took Orakpo the pick after Denver took Moreno.

2KBack
12-01-2009, 02:26 PM
Orakpo was picked 13th, the spot right after Denver too Moreno. He was off the board when Ayers was picked.

2KBack
12-01-2009, 02:26 PM
damn, lost the quick draw

mhgaffney
12-01-2009, 03:19 PM
Ayers was never billed as a big sack guy.

His job is to collapse the pocket. I've seen him do it a number of times.

fontaine
12-01-2009, 03:26 PM
Well you said he looks fat, lazy, and slow...you just as well said he is a bust

No, those things could be a result of poor conditioning, lack of effort etc on his part.

I think it's far too early to make a judgement on whether he's a bust or not. All I'm going by is observations on his play. There's no doubt he'll improve but you're not going to become a good player just by experience. It takes a lot of dedication and personal effort to get there and I'm not seeing that on the evidence of the plays where he's in.

Archer81
12-01-2009, 03:28 PM
So...a college DE is asked to move to OLB, and aside from being a rookie in the first place is being asked to learn an entirely new position is being labled a bust 11 games into his first season...unreal.


:Broncos:

fontaine
12-01-2009, 03:36 PM
This is the kind of stuff I'm talking about. Ayers is lined up as the LB at the line of scrimmage against the RT.

He basically walks towards the pocket. If he had to cover the flat to stop the quick pass to LT, he's too late, if his assignment was to get to Rivers then he's still way too slow.

He basically doesn't even engage the RT. Can anyone explain just what he was doing on this play?

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-videos/09000d5d8138f634/Philip-Rivers-Highlight-WK-06-vs-Broncos-2009

fontaine
12-01-2009, 03:38 PM
So...a college DE is asked to move to OLB, and aside from being a rookie in the first place is being asked to learn an entirely new position is being labled a bust 11 games into his first season...unreal.



Actually what's unreal is that people are still assuming he's working solely as an OLB without having actually watched him play.

He's taken plenty of snaps as a DE from a three point stance when we switch to a 4-3.

Archer81
12-01-2009, 03:39 PM
Actually what's unreal is that people are still assuming he's working solely as an OLB.

He's taken plenty of snaps as a DE from a three point stance when we switch to a 4-3.


Did he switch back in forth in college?


:Broncos:

fontaine
12-01-2009, 03:41 PM
Did he switch back in forth in college?


:Broncos:

I don't know about his college snaps but as a Bronco, yes, he's worked snaps as a DE in a 4-3.

Archer81
12-01-2009, 03:49 PM
I don't know about his college snaps but as a Bronco, yes, he's worked snaps as a DE in a 4-3.


So does Dumervil. Is it fair to expect a rookie to be a 2nd Dumervil right off the bat?


:Broncos:

Popps
12-01-2009, 03:49 PM
The kid is a project, and the fact that he saw time with starters so quickly was encouraging to me.

That said, he was inactive, and that's a big red flag. I doubt McDaniels would have made a guy like Ayers inactive based on struggling a bit, so much as not being prepared. So, while I haven't watched him on every single play.... I can't rule out the notion that maybe he hasn't been bringing his A-game every week.

He played standing up and with his hand down in college, and he's got the ability. Go back and watch his videos. You can't teach what he does. He's got inherent skill. But, rookies need time... and in some cases, they very-well may need a kick in the ass.

I thought he looked good last week, so let's hope being inactive was a wake-up call for him. I don't think there's definitive proof that he's "taking plays off," but I'm not ruling it out.

If he's back out there, I think it's because the staff believes he's got the ability and is showing the right work ethic. So, let's see where things go.

Garcia Bronco
12-01-2009, 03:54 PM
I'm not down on Ayers. He's learning the ropes. He's already showed me more in a few games than Moss or Crowder did over a few years.

It just takes time. Simmer down.

this

fontaine
12-01-2009, 03:55 PM
So does Dumervil. Is it fair to expect a rookie to be a 2nd Dumervil right off the bat?


:Broncos:

Where in the world did you get that impression?

I know the issue isn't that he's working off a two or three point stance because I've seen him make plays from both positions.

Against Dallas, one of our first defensive plays was Ayers exploding off the snap, taking out the LT and bursting on the tackles inside shoulder and swarming to the QB. THAT was off a two point stance and it was an awesome play that showed exactly the kind of natural talent the kid has.

But like I said, watching him do that, then take plays off and not hustle towards the ball carrier or not give any kind of 2nd effort after the tackle has sealed him off initially is well, frustrating.

Archer81
12-01-2009, 03:57 PM
Where in the world did you get that impression?


The thread title maybe?


:Broncos:

fontaine
12-01-2009, 04:01 PM
The thread title maybe?


:Broncos:

Whatever, this was an open thread I created to ask other people who've seen him if they've observed the same things or have seen something else because there are far more football savy people here who actually watch for this kind of stuff

I made it a point to say I don't care about his sack numbers, where he was drafted, just around his effort/hustle and burst off the snap.

If you want to, blindly in my opinion, read more into that then by all means knock yourself out.

tsiguy96
12-01-2009, 04:04 PM
Not only is he a rookie, but he came out as a Junior didn't he? He had one good season at Tennessee so I am not too quick to get on his case. The fact that he didn't dress for the Chargers game does worry me though...

haynesworth was inactive most his rookie season.

Bob
12-01-2009, 04:05 PM
Doom was ALWAYS about effort.

But what does he have to do with Ayers?

Look, I'm just going by what I see. I see guys like Reid etc who are naturally LESS talented than Ayers put in serious effort, sometimes against double teams to fight through blockers.

Ayers does the opposite. And it's not like he has outside contain or is protecting the flat, in the plays I've seen he just looks hesitant, slow getting of the line (in a two or three point stance), and doesn't fight blockers.

Exactly half the size (not really) but plays much bigger than Ayers --

Lev Vyvanse
12-01-2009, 04:05 PM
From what I've seen he is not taking plays off. He is good vs the run, ok at collapsing the pocket, and a liability in coverage. Pretty mother****ing good for a guy changing positions from one level to the next.

Tombstone RJ
12-01-2009, 04:23 PM
This is the kind of stuff I'm talking about. Ayers is lined up as the LB at the line of scrimmage against the RT.

He basically walks towards the pocket. If he had to cover the flat to stop the quick pass to LT, he's too late, if his assignment was to get to Rivers then he's still way too slow.

He basically doesn't even engage the RT. Can anyone explain just what he was doing on this play?

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-videos/09000d5d8138f634/Philip-Rivers-Highlight-WK-06-vs-Broncos-2009

I don't know what his assigment is on this play so to assume he's slacking because he does not go balls-to-the-wall crazy all over the RT is presumptuous.

The RT does not engage Ayers, all he does is back up to contain the outside pass rush. This is more of an engagement issue for Sandy Eggo's RT than a problem with Ayers.

River's gets rid of the ball before anyone can get to him and the RT is practically in Rivers jock when River's throws the ball. Again, just because Ayers is not engaged with any pass blockers does not mean he's slacking.

azbroncfan
12-01-2009, 04:23 PM
The only thing I don't like is Moss is getting some of his time which tells me he has been struggling. Moss is definition of underachieving bust and the coaches are giving him time over him. Like others have said let's see in 3 years.

Dean
12-01-2009, 04:38 PM
Whatever, this was an open thread I created to ask other people who've seen him if they've observed the same things or have seen something else because there are far more football savy people here who actually watch for this kind of stuff

I made it a point to say I don't care about his sack numbers, where he was drafted, just around his effort/hustle and burst off the snap.

If you want to, blindly in my opinion, read more into that then by all means knock yourself out.

I don't think that some people want to look at his effort or rather his lack of it. They might not like what they see. Rather than either going back and look at any recorded past games or pledging to look at him in the next five, the point of facus is shifted. It takes no special ability to hustle. Anyone can choose to do that. That choice comes from within.

chrisp
12-01-2009, 04:43 PM
I think we need to be clear about what we should expect from Ayers. He's not an explosive pass rusher who will rack up the sacks - he never was in college so he sure as heck isn't going to do it in the pros.

What he will do is be a disruptive, player who makes plays in the front seven. He'll get the odd sack here and there but overall he'll probably be better against the run than he is against the pass. He's already made a couple of plays in limited time - tackles for loss, forced fumbles etc etc. Expect more of that.

I think he's coming along just fine. Moss, on the other hand is 100% pass rusher. He's exactly like Elvis in that he needs to secure a role as a third-down pass-rush specialist before he can hope to nail down a starting spot. If Moss gains playing time it will not be at the expense of Ayers, although they may well decide to take ayers out on the plays where they put Moss in. But Moss already has a couple of years in which he has shown nothing so he really has to turn it on this year. The fact that he's getting any playing time at all when he wasn't getting any earlier on in the year is mildly encouraging, but he needs to get to the QB if he wants to stick around. The same is not so true of Ayers.

Lev Vyvanse
12-01-2009, 04:44 PM
You should edit the title and insert Marcus Thomas and this thread would be right on the money.

ohiobronco2
12-01-2009, 05:05 PM
Orakpo gets to play D with Haynesworth. I've heard he is pretty good. :) We don't have a member of our front line who is even close to being that talented.

Kaylore
12-01-2009, 05:08 PM
I've seen Robert Ayers up close and he isn't fat. He is toned and ready to go. It's pretty much impossible for any rookie that went to their pro-day, the senior bowl AND the combine AND made all of camp to be fat - especially at this point in the season. In fact I would say it would take a thyroid problem to even maintain weight during that period. He hasn't missed practice and has made some nice plays getting pressure and setting the edge. I don't see what Fontaine is talking about at all.

steeledude
12-01-2009, 05:15 PM
Or in the case of Moreno and Ayers, "if McD drafted them, they must suck"

While McDaniels is the biggest douchebag to walk the earth, I am certain Moreno is going to be great. He struggled early but he is a stud. I'm not sure about Ayers or Alphonso. Both those guys have me pretty worried.

Is McD a bad drafter? Maybe. He thinks he knows it all and eliminates many options because of this--having a draft board with far fewer prospects than other teams for example.

Did he make a good choice with Moreno? Absolutely. To say otherwise would be completely false.

steeledude
12-01-2009, 05:17 PM
I think we need to be clear about what we should expect from Ayers. He's not an explosive pass rusher who will rack up the sacks - he never was in college so he sure as heck isn't going to do it in the pros.

What he will do is be a disruptive, player who makes plays in the front seven. He'll get the odd sack here and there but overall he'll probably be better against the run than he is against the pass. He's already made a couple of plays in limited time - tackles for loss, forced fumbles etc etc. Expect more of that.



So should Ayers be playing for the strong side instead of the weak side? I think one of the most baffling things about him is he takes time from Elvis. Dumervil should be on the field at all times. If Ayers isn't a rusher he should be in the middle or on the other side--right? I'm not real good with the 3-4 so I might be wrong.

Lev Vyvanse
12-01-2009, 05:23 PM
So should Ayers be playing for the strong side instead of the weak side? I think one of the most baffling things about him is he takes time from Elvis. Dumervil should be on the field at all times. If Ayers isn't a rusher he should be in the middle or on the other side--right? I'm not real good with the 3-4 so I might be wrong.

He plays on both sides.

KipCorrington25
12-01-2009, 07:23 PM
He's been invisible to be honest and he does look a little fat but the jury is still out, we'll see.

Lev Vyvanse
12-01-2009, 07:28 PM
I'd like to know what the OP thinks about Fields.

bowtown
12-01-2009, 07:29 PM
I'd like to know what the OP thinks about Fields.

He's a great rotation NT... much better than I ever thought he would be.

Lev Vyvanse
12-01-2009, 07:30 PM
He's a great rotation NT... much better than I ever thought he would be.
He's the starter the rotational guy is thomas.

outdoor_miner
12-01-2009, 09:09 PM
So should Ayers be playing for the strong side instead of the weak side? I think one of the most baffling things about him is he takes time from Elvis. Dumervil should be on the field at all times. If Ayers isn't a rusher he should be in the middle or on the other side--right? I'm not real good with the 3-4 so I might be wrong.

What are you talking about? Ayers replaces Haggan on obvious passing situations. He and Elvis are pretty much always on the field together.

steeledude
12-01-2009, 09:25 PM
What are you talking about? Ayers replaces Haggan on obvious passing situations. He and Elvis are pretty much always on the field together.

Whether he does or not, don't act like you know something.

http://www.nfl.com/teams/denverbroncos/depthchart?team=DEN

Depth chart clearly has him listed as a backup to Elvis. Is it true? I don't know. I don't watch football to analyze who is on the field every play. All I said was if his strength wasn't rushing, maybe he shouldn't back up Elvis. Which the depth charts says he does.

Lev Vyvanse
12-01-2009, 09:27 PM
Whether he does or not, don't act like you know something.

http://www.nfl.com/teams/denverbroncos/depthchart?team=DEN

Depth chart clearly has him listed as a backup to Elvis. Is it true? I don't know. I don't watch football to analyze who is on the field every play. All I said was if his strength wasn't rushing, maybe he shouldn't back up Elvis. Which the depth charts says he does.
He was playing backup OLB for both sides.

Kaylore
12-01-2009, 09:38 PM
Whether he does or not, don't act like you know something.

http://www.nfl.com/teams/denverbroncos/depthchart?team=DEN

Depth chart clearly has him listed as a backup to Elvis. Is it true? I don't know. I don't watch football to analyze who is on the field every play. All I said was if his strength wasn't rushing, maybe he shouldn't back up Elvis. Which the depth charts says he does.

The depth chart, especially in McDaniels' system, is pretty much worthless. They move guys all over the field and ask different players to do different things every week.

outdoor_miner
12-01-2009, 09:52 PM
Whether he does or not, don't act like you know something.

http://www.nfl.com/teams/denverbroncos/depthchart?team=DEN

Depth chart clearly has him listed as a backup to Elvis. Is it true? I don't know. I don't watch football to analyze who is on the field every play. All I said was if his strength wasn't rushing, maybe he shouldn't back up Elvis. Which the depth charts says he does.

Huh? I watch the games, dude. I pay specific attention to Ayers because I'm intrigued to see how our rookie 1st round pick is doing. He comes in mostly on obvious passing downs, and he rushes from the side opposite Elvis. You said you were baffled because Ayers was taking snaps from Elvis, and that is simply not the case. They are mostly on the field together.

bpc
12-01-2009, 09:53 PM
The depth chart, especially in McDaniels' system, is pretty much worthless. They move guys all over the field and ask different players to do different things every week.

Good post. I think what Ayers progress speaks to right now and probably also Alphonso Smith, they're young guys playing in a VERY diverse NFL 3-4 scheme which is constantly asking them to do different things. I think this is why Nolan and McDaniel are leaning heavily on experienced guys who know the terminology and requirements... guys like Dawkins, Hill, Goodman, Andra Davis, and Vonnie Holiday.

Ayers will be fine. I've seen enough of him over the past year to know that he's a guy that will get better with experience and he's got a lot of the things you want in a young defensive lineman. He might not be a 15 sack guy, but he'll be a person that will have an impact on rushing and passing downs.

Lolad
12-01-2009, 10:03 PM
I somewhat agree with the OP Ayers takes some plays off. I've seen runs go to the outside and he just jogs thinking his teammate will get the tackle. He hardly gang tackles he just watches.

fontaine
12-02-2009, 01:58 AM
I somewhat agree with the OP Ayers takes some plays off. I've seen runs go to the outside and he just jogs thinking his teammate will get the tackle. He hardly gang tackles he just watches.

This is exactly what I've seen as well. The guy just does not consistently swarm to the ball while others in the front 7 are going all out to gang tackle.

The MVPlaya
12-02-2009, 02:00 AM
I hope people realize that...

1. Nolan has much/most control of the defense, but it's ok go ahead and blame McDaniels, just give him credit when it's success too. In the other threads when talking about McD's success, people try to give credit to Nolan... WTF?

2. Robert Ayers has shifted from a dlineman playing with his hands on the ground all the time to playing LB. He's played with his hands up most of the season... so with THAT in mind, changing how he's played his whole life, he's making a transition into the NFL.

I agree that Ayers hasn't been much of a play maker DIRECTLY, he has been apart of many good plays. I've seen him get chewed up at the line, etc, however rookie defensive players usually take longer to develop, especially dlineman... especially dlineman being converted to a LB.

lol @ calling Ayers FAT... when I clicked on the thread I had no idea to expect it was made on Dec. 1.

You damn fools, sometimes I feel like I'm stuck on the small bus on the way to school.

The MVPlaya
12-02-2009, 02:12 AM
Oh - and maybe, just maybe, you guys should watch other rookie dlineman or at least go do some research and see how much PT/effect they have had on their team.

Orakpo was gone by the time we had Ayers... are you guys stupid? There is no reason to compare him to Ayers if he was drafted BEFORE him unless you're the Redskins...

SMH.

mhgaffney
12-02-2009, 02:20 AM
Taking plays off? I haven't seen it.

Even Champ gets washed out of some plays.

Beantown Bronco
12-02-2009, 03:48 AM
Ayers was never billed as a big sack guy.


damn, lost the quick draw

Did he switch back in forth in college?


:Broncos:

Anyone else notice where this thread appears to be going?

barryr
12-02-2009, 05:37 AM
Ayers was a late bloomer in college, so odds were he wasn't going to come right in and play great. I wasn't even expecting him to get on the field much this year.

steeledude
12-02-2009, 05:44 AM
The depth chart, especially in McDaniels' system, is pretty much worthless. They move guys all over the field and ask different players to do different things every week.

Well then, can you fill me in on who plays the rest of those positions he just scribbled names into?

steeledude
12-02-2009, 05:45 AM
Oh - and maybe, just maybe, you guys should watch other rookie dlineman or at least go do some research and see how much PT/effect they have had on their team.

Orakpo was gone by the time we had Ayers... are you guys stupid? There is no reason to compare him to Ayers if he was drafted BEFORE him unless you're the Redskins...

SMH.

HAHAHAHA! Dumb.

The MVPlaya
12-02-2009, 06:11 AM
HAHAHAHA! Dumb.

Really...?

What's dumb is stating that it's dumb with nothing to actually back it with.

misturanderson
12-02-2009, 06:53 AM
Well then, can you fill me in on who plays the rest of those positions he just scribbled names into?

Try watching the games you tool. If you don't have any idea what you're talking about, don't post and make yourself look like a 'tard.

Kaylore
12-02-2009, 07:27 AM
Well then, can you fill me in on who plays the rest of those positions he just scribbled names into?

It depends on who they need. People think if you're first on that list than you always play the whole game, every game until you're hurt. They rotate guys in on defense depending on the team, down and distance. They change week to week. The Giants coaches were on record last week as saying our team has no tendencies and that is by design so opposing defenses can't easily find ways to attack us. Right now Ayers is a third down and sometimes nickel player - kind of like Woodyard. Dumervil lines up all over, sometimes at DE, OLB and even DT. And that's BEFORE they stunt. Of course if you actually watched the Broncos you would have known this already.

sixtimeseight
12-02-2009, 07:41 AM
blah blah blah

Nothing quite as hilariously ironic as some old fatass sitting on his couch posting about how an elite athlete with a body fat % 15 points lower than his will ever be is "fat, lazy and slow."

Mr.Meanie
12-02-2009, 07:53 AM
So should Ayers be playing for the strong side instead of the weak side? I think one of the most baffling things about him is he takes time from Elvis. Dumervil should be on the field at all times. If Ayers isn't a rusher he should be in the middle or on the other side--right? I'm not real good with the 3-4 so I might be wrong.

Wow. You may take the title as the most blatantly ignorant poster on this forum. And that's saying something in a forum that has mock, lex, bronco warrior, broncofan7, etc...

Being ignorant isn't a fault, but being ignorant while being opinionated and insulting more educated people is.

fontaine
12-02-2009, 07:54 AM
Nothing quite as hilariously ironic as some old fatass sitting on his couch posting about how an elite athlete with a body fat % 15 points lower than his will ever be is "fat, lazy and slow."

I row three times a week, 15km each session, but thanks for your insight anyway.

Broncos_OTM
12-02-2009, 07:59 AM
Wow, my whole point was he wasn't an elite player UNTIL this year, thus, this year isn't relevant to the argument. I never said he wasn't good this year, in fact, I was saying this was his breakout year (obviously).

In the same vein, this is his only really GOOD year, before 2009 he was a journeyman with decent potential.

You're the one grasping at straws.

Dude, You are a Idiot.

Journeyman means he has been around awhile. 10.5 sacks. how many guys even have close to ten sacks this year or over. 10 sacks is usually the line to say the guy is a good football player. 8.5 sacks as a rookie. is awesome look at every thread and how people are celebrateing orakpo with his 7 sacks as a rookie.

SportinOne
12-02-2009, 08:08 AM
Nothing quite as hilariously ironic as some old fatass sitting on his couch posting about how an elite athlete with a body fat % 15 points lower than his will ever be is "fat, lazy and slow."

Well, if you really want to go there... its called perspective. He's not really fat, lazy, or slow, but compared to other players you might say that.

Oh, just wanted to clear some things up:

1. Dumervil: Good since day one, GREAT this season. One bad year in the NFL is always going to happen. It's a crap shoot every season. You may have THOUGHT he would turn out to be a journeyman during his first season, but that doesn't take away what he has done. 8 sacks is what I would call "good." However...

2. He shouldn't be compared to Ayers. Doom's primary job is and always has been to rush the QB. Ayers job is, apparently to stand around and steal money from Pat Bowlen. Well, that's harsh...but it's not his primary job to sack the QB, that much is clear.

3. I love the analogy to the Steelers. I thought of that right away when thi thread popped up. Will we have enough time in the 3-4 to make it happen the way they can? I really hope so. We will have bad games and bad stretches but the 3-4 is hands down better than the 4-3, if you have the personnel.

4. Champ does get washed out of plays. Sometimes. But almost never. And he is a cornerback, not an especially thick linebacker. Worst attempt of this thread.

SportinOne
12-02-2009, 08:11 AM
Dude, You are a Idiot.

Journeyman means he has been around awhile. 10.5 sacks. how many guys even have close to ten sacks this year or over. 10 sacks is usually the line to say the guy is a good football player. 8.5 sacks as a rookie. is awesome look at every thread and how people are celebrateing orakpo with his 7 sacks as a rookie.

Orakpo might get more celebration because:

A: He's highly touted rookie, not a 4th rounder

and

B: He's got 7 sacks, but there are still games left to play.

Broncos_OTM
12-02-2009, 08:24 AM
Orakpo might get more celebration because:

A: He's highly touted rookie, not a 4th rounder

and

B: He's got 7 sacks, but there are still games left to play.

i guess you missed the part where Doom had 8.5 sacks as a rookie while only playing in 13 yes 13 games. Not starting a single one of them.

More celebrated i dont know about dude had 20 sacks as a senior. Alot of people wrote him off due to his height. otherwise dude is the first pick in the draft.

oubronco
12-02-2009, 08:32 AM
Well, if you really want to go there... its called perspective. He's not really fat, lazy, or slow, but compared to other players you might say that.

Oh, just wanted to clear some things up:

1. Dumervil: Good since day one, GREAT this season. One bad year in the NFL is always going to happen. It's a crap shoot every season. You may have THOUGHT he would turn out to be a journeyman during his first season, but that doesn't take away what he has done. 8 sacks is what I would call "good." However...

2. He shouldn't be compared to Ayers. Doom's primary job is and always has been to rush the QB. Ayers job is, apparently to stand around and steal money from Pat Bowlen. Well, that's harsh...but it's not his primary job to sack the QB, that much is clear.

3. I love the analogy to the Steelers. I thought of that right away when thi thread popped up. Will we have enough time in the 3-4 to make it happen the way they can? I really hope so. We will have bad games and bad stretches but the 3-4 is hands down better than the 4-3, if you have the personnel.

4. Champ does get washed out of plays. Sometimes. But almost never. And he is a cornerback, not an especially thick linebacker. Worst attempt of this thread.

I get the impression he is to play containment and the run and not rush the passer that would be Doom's job

Broncos_OTM
12-02-2009, 08:35 AM
I get the impression he is to play containment and the run and not rush the passer that would be Doom's job

If that is the case i would be a bit dissapointed makes blitzing a little more predictable.

fontaine
12-02-2009, 08:42 AM
I get the impression he is to play containment and the run and not rush the passer that would be Doom's job

Not always. He does come in to specifically rush the QB like that first drive against Dallas. The first game against SD when we were up late in the 2nd half and LT was being shut down etc etc.

He's even been asked to line up inside/stunt from the outside to rush the QB.

It's a lot like what Kaylore mentioned earlier. The D doesn't have tendencies because they'll use DJ or Davis on delayed blitzes, they'll stunt Doom/Ayers/Reid, they interchange Doom/Ayers positions so it does make it more difficult to gameplan/adjust against.

It's a pretty exciting defense IMO. They do similar things with the secondary. The guys will line up to play bump/man coverage giving no cushion, other times they'll wait till the last second to allow a 4/5 yard cushion.

bronco militia
12-02-2009, 02:07 PM
:welcome:

bowtown
12-02-2009, 02:08 PM
:welcome:

Where's the fire? Clearly this team has no heart. Moreno looks like he's asleep. What a bust. Ayers just standing there with his mouth wide open hoping someone shovels some food in... fat lazy POS.

bronco militia
12-02-2009, 02:14 PM
Where's the fire? Clearly this team has no heart. Moreno looks like he's asleep. What a bust. Ayers just standing there with his mouth wide open hoping someone shovels some food in... fat lazy POS.

LOL

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steeledude
12-02-2009, 05:06 PM
Really...?

What's dumb is stating that it's dumb with nothing to actually back it with.

People aren't mad we took Ayers instead of Orakpo. They're mad because we took Knowshon instead of Orakpo. I don't really give a **** either way though.

steeledude
12-02-2009, 05:08 PM
Wow. You may take the title as the most blatantly ignorant poster on this forum. And that's saying something in a forum that has mock, lex, bronco warrior, broncofan7, etc...

Being ignorant isn't a fault, but being ignorant while being opinionated and insulting more educated people is.

I'm not really sure what your issue with my post was. Honestly I don't really care, I just realized that as I was typing. So whatever, I defer to your genius. But just in case you have trouble with these things, I wasn't insulting anyone in the post I wrote. I was asking a question about a commonly spoken belief around here--Ayers competes with Doom for playing time.

kappys
12-02-2009, 05:36 PM
If that is the case i would be a bit dissapointed makes blitzing a little more predictable.

One of his roles has been to "Set the edge", i.e. when we bring a lot of pressure from one side Ayers is on the other and his real job is to not let the QB escape from the pocket to his side. In those situations he may appear to rush the passer though that's not his primary mission.

However when he has been asked to blitz I would say his effectiveness is only moderate

yerner
12-02-2009, 05:56 PM
I row three times a week, 15km each session, but thanks for your insight anyway.

Rowing is ****ing gay. I hope the sweater you wear around your shoulders strangles you to death.

watermock
12-02-2009, 09:12 PM
It builds up those feminine arms!

broncocalijohn
12-02-2009, 09:31 PM
I'm not down on Ayers. He's learning the ropes. He's already showed me more in a few games than Moss or Crowder did over a few years.

It just takes time. Simmer down.

we need to set the bar higher than Moss or Crowder. Those were two horrible picks.....in the same draft! I appreciate the thread for someone noticing it on one player. I dont tape games or I would go back and see it for my own eyes. Funny thing is, I havent heard too much complaining on Ayers.

barryr
12-03-2009, 06:01 AM
we need to set the bar higher than Moss or Crowder. Those were two horrible picks.....in the same draft! I appreciate the thread for someone noticing it on one player. I dont tape games or I would go back and see it for my own eyes. Funny thing is, I havent heard too much complaining on Ayers.

True, neither Moss or Crowder could even get on the field much with that crappy Shanahan defense and lack of talent they had on the DL for so many years.

azbroncfan
12-03-2009, 12:36 PM
True, neither Moss or Crowder could even get on the field much with that crappy Shanahan defense and lack of talent they had on the DL for so many years.

Florida will soon tune in to say that Crowder is starting in TB (worst team in the league) and Moss has been getting playing time of recent(as he looks at his Moss FAT HEAD). I agree the bar needs to be set about 3 times plus over those two bums.

Circle Orange
12-03-2009, 05:09 PM
HEY! Don't hate...he's been hangin' out with Jamarcus Russell. They've been hitting the twinkie and ho ho circuit. :clown:

bronco militia
12-08-2009, 07:20 AM
he must be losing weight ;D





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Paladin
12-08-2009, 07:49 AM
Dat Boy done need Grits......

Mr.Meanie
12-08-2009, 08:02 AM
Rowing is ****ing gay. I hope the sweater you wear around your shoulders strangles you to death.

:spit: