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prunch
11-30-2009, 07:49 AM
http://www.chicagobreakingsports.com/2009/11/urlacher.html

Yahoo! Sports reports: Brian Urlacher put in a plug for Kyle Orton and addressed the difference in the Bears' identity with Jay Cutler at quarterback during a weekend interview with Michael Silver of Yahoo! Sports.

"Look, I love Jay, and I understand he's a great player who can take us a long way, and I still have faith in him," Urlacher said. "But I hate the way our identity has changed. We used to establish the run and wear teams down and try not to make mistakes, and we'd rely on our defense to keep us in the game and make big plays to put us in position to win. Kyle Orton might not be the flashiest quarterback, but the guy is a winner, and that formula worked for us. I hate to say it, but that's the truth."

Get the full story: Yahoo.com

BlaK-Argentina
11-30-2009, 07:51 AM
Cue Popps with the: "But he's got a rocket arm!" comment. ;D

Peoples Champ
11-30-2009, 07:52 AM
its not Cutlers fault !

(sarcastic)

Ambiguous
11-30-2009, 07:52 AM
Wow, that team is a total train wreck now. It's more a crucifixion of the coaching staff than Cutler, but if he's at the point of saying this stuff to the media it must be pretty bad.

Beantown Bronco
11-30-2009, 07:55 AM
Pretty tough not to agree with Brian, but I have a problem with the timing. His defense just got lit up yesterday something fierce. Call me crazy, but giving up 550+ yards of offense and a ton of points is not "keeping the team in the game" as far as I'm concerned.

Archer81
11-30-2009, 07:56 AM
Frown Cannon, destroyer of NFL Franchises...


:Broncos:

Peoples Champ
11-30-2009, 07:59 AM
Pretty tough not to agree with Brian, but I have a problem with the timing. His defense just got lit up yesterday something fierce. Call me crazy, but giving up 550+ yards of offense and a ton of points is not "keeping the team in the game" as far as I'm concerned.

Your right, the Bears defense is garbage. But I think thats what Urlacher was trying to say about changing Identities.

Instead of drafting up and building a solid Defense, they gave away their picks for a "rocket" arm and are trying to be a flashy/offensive team instead of a Defensive team. Or at least in the short term. Next year could be different.

rastaman
11-30-2009, 08:00 AM
Urlacher also likes Cutler's toughness and no quit attitude. But Urlacher doesn't hesitate to say Culter just throws too many interceptions and forces throws in tight coverage and triple teams.

Its not Cutler who turned the Bears into passing first and run second so much as it is Turner sending in all the plays. I'm sure Cutler would rather run the ball more as well, its just that the O Line just isn't making space for Matt Forte' to run btwn like back in 2008 when Forte ran for over 1,200 yards.

rastaman
11-30-2009, 08:01 AM
its not Cutlers fault !

(sarcastic)

Its all Orton's fault he should have never agreed to the trade!

(sarcastic)

bronco militia
11-30-2009, 08:02 AM
http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news;_ylt=Avz0lnlKkbrffV3aF_8Gllc5nYcB?slug=ms-morningrush113009&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

Peoples Champ
11-30-2009, 08:03 AM
Urlacher also likes Cutler's toughness and no quit attitude. But Urlacher doesn't hesitate to say Culter just throws too many interceptions and forces throws in tight coverage and triple teams.

Its not Cutler who turned the Bears into passing first and run second so much as it is Turner sending in all the plays. I'm sure Cutler would rather run the ball more as well, its just that the O Line just isn't making space for Matt Forte' to run btwn like back in 2008 when Forte ran for over 1,200 yards.


right, because they gave away all their picks for Cutler. If not, they might have been able to draft OL. We will see if they do next year, and try to build the run game.


But it makes me happy that the bears are talking about rebuilding, whether it be their D or OL. Because the Broncos were supposed to be the "rebuilding" team going into the year. People had us at 2-14 or 3-13.

Paladin
11-30-2009, 08:04 AM
But, but, Orlando was the answer!!!!!

TheElusiveKyleOrton
11-30-2009, 08:05 AM
Your right, the Bears defense is garbage. But I think thats what Urlacher was trying to say about changing Identities.

Instead of drafting up and building a solid Defense, they gave away their picks for a "rocket" arm and are trying to be a flashy/offensive team instead of a Defensive team. Or at least in the short term. Next year could be different.

I don't see how it will be different next year. They have no first or second round picks. If there's no CBA, there's not going to be much free agent movement. And their line will be a year older and crappier.

If Urlacher comes back full boar, you might see a change in the defense, but to me BU isn't a Polamalu-type where the entire defense is different because he's on the field. I just don't see it.

The rebuild in Chicago doesn't begin til 2011. And by that point, I think Cutler will have two years left on his deal.

rastaman
11-30-2009, 08:11 AM
right, because they gave away all their picks for Cutler. If not, they might have been able to draft OL. We will see if they do next year, and try to build the run game.


But it makes me happy that the bears are talking about rebuilding, whether it be their D or OL. Because the Broncos were supposed to be the "rebuilding" team going into the year. People had us at 2-14 or 3-13.

The Bears can still find efficent talent to shore up the O line via free agency and not pay a ransome to do so.

Also the Defense can get healthy in hurry if BU and Tinosomo (sp) can both comeback healthy. And if the Bears also sign some veteran players off FA there's no reason the Bears Defense can't make a turn around and become effective in 010. Afterall the Broncos Defense proves it can be done so there's no reason the Bears can't duplicate the same turn-around.

McDman
11-30-2009, 08:15 AM
Rasta, why don't you just go over to the Bears? It's clear you have an undying love for Cutler.

gtown
11-30-2009, 08:27 AM
The Bears defense has not been that bad. Yesterday they got lit up by a Vikings O that is one of the best in the league.

They have had some injuries, but their front four and the LB corps, even without BU, have been pretty good. What has happened is that Devin Hester has been effectively strategized against in the return game, and Cutler doesn't have the weapons around him to hide his deficiencies. Hard to win games when the QB is single handedly giving the game to the other team.

Tombstone RJ
11-30-2009, 08:35 AM
Really, the bears being this bad is not all on Cutler. Its an overall meltdown which starts with the coaching staff putting too much focus on the passing game and not enough focus on the running game. Hey, if your oline stinks, it's gonna be exposed more in the passing game than the running game. Even bad offensive lines can run block with a decent RB and the bears have Forte.

As for the defense, it's being exposed but it's only a few pieces away from being decent.

BMarsh615
11-30-2009, 08:37 AM
From the same article....

When Cutler threw a gorgeous touchdown pass to wideout Johnny Knox (http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/players/9404/;_ylt=AhMSFhLYUNZeML1yVaCO43Kr0op4)(notes) (http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/players/9404/news;_ylt=AqrTf8ui_Qj1tNK_VmtWtumr0op4) in the corner of the end zone to tie the score at 7, Urlacher was both excited and impressed. “You see him do [expletive] like that, and you’re like, ‘That’s unreal,’ ” Urlacher said. “I mean, there might be five guys in the league who can make that throw; it couldn’t have been anywhere else. It was [expletive] sweet.” He called Knox “one of my favorite rookies of all time. He’s sensational; he just goes out there and plays. Even in training camp he didn’t talk a lot. He played football and won our respect.”

Peoples Champ
11-30-2009, 08:53 AM
I don't see how it will be different next year. They have no first or second round picks. If there's no CBA, there's not going to be much free agent movement. And their line will be a year older and crappier.

If Urlacher comes back full boar, you might see a change in the defense, but to me BU isn't a Polamalu-type where the entire defense is different because he's on the field. I just don't see it.

The rebuild in Chicago doesn't begin til 2011. And by that point, I think Cutler will have two years left on his deal.

right, this is the main reason why Denver got the best of the trade, and Bears were idiots for doing this. I love it.

Peoples Champ
11-30-2009, 08:58 AM
Really, the bears being this bad is not all on Cutler. Its an overall meltdown which starts with the coaching staff putting too much focus on the passing game and not enough focus on the running game. Hey, if your oline stinks, it's gonna be exposed more in the passing game than the running game. Even bad offensive lines can run block with a decent RB and the bears have Forte.

As for the defense, it's being exposed but it's only a few pieces away from being decent.


you could be right, but this helps us Denver fans feel better ripping on Cutler and the Bears.

Going into the year, The bears were supposed to be the "instantly" better team and the broncos were supposed to be "rebuilding" because we got all the picks and they got the franchise QB.

I know not everyone in the world might have thought the bears were superbowl contenders, and the broncos were going to be 2-14, but that was the general feel I got from the sports world and all my friends/family that are bears fans.

I know these ESPN rankings are pathetic, but check out week 1, we are 27th team in the NFL because cutler is gone

http://espn.go.com/nfl/powerrankings/_/week/1

azbroncfan
11-30-2009, 08:58 AM
It's a easy answer. Consistency and turnovers. Orton won't give you the great games followed by terrible games just consistent good games with low turnovers.

Smiling Assassin27
11-30-2009, 09:00 AM
Jerry Angelo is the responsible party. How he keeps a job as GM is beyond me.

NFLBRONCO
11-30-2009, 09:08 AM
Jay is a baby and maybe with right coach he'll learn to limit his turnovers in redzone. I'd still rather have him then Orton. BU likes Orton as a teammate but, he can see what an upgrade Jay brings to the table. Is it Jay's fault alot yes but, as bad as their O is he sure moves it up and down the field better then we do and our O is supposed to be 100 times better that's what happens when you have a qb that can use the whole field.

I do question Cutlers leadership and desire to get better work on his game we'll see how it turns out over time. His mopey aloof arrogance won't make it easier for him but, name one team that expected playoffs in 09 that is 4-7 wouldn't gripe and make these statements.

baja
11-30-2009, 09:16 AM
Pretty tough not to agree with Brian, but I have a problem with the timing. His defense just got lit up yesterday something fierce. Call me crazy, but giving up 550+ yards of offense and a ton of points is not "keeping the team in the game" as far as I'm concerned.

How many of those yards come as a direct result of Cutlers miscues?

Taco John
11-30-2009, 09:18 AM
I don't see how it will be different next year. They have no first or second round picks. If there's no CBA, there's not going to be much free agent movement. And their line will be a year older and crappier.

If Urlacher comes back full boar, you might see a change in the defense, but to me BU isn't a Polamalu-type where the entire defense is different because he's on the field. I just don't see it.

The rebuild in Chicago doesn't begin til 2011. And by that point, I think Cutler will have two years left on his deal.


You don't think that Brian Urlacher makes their defense better? Really?

He's the heart and soul of that defense. I can't imagine how anybody doesn't see that.

baja
11-30-2009, 09:19 AM
Urlacher also likes Cutler's toughness and no quit attitude. But Urlacher doesn't hesitate to say Culter just throws too many interceptions and forces throws in tight coverage and triple teams.

Its not Cutler who turned the Bears into passing first and run second so much as it is Turner sending in all the plays. <b> I'm sure Cutler would rather run the ball more as well,</b> its just that the O Line just isn't making space for Matt Forte' to run btwn like back in 2008 when Forte ran for over 1,200 yards.


Dude you just say what is convenient for your position your takes are not often based in reality. Cutler would rather run the ball, ya right.

rastaman
11-30-2009, 09:19 AM
Rasta, why don't you just go over to the Bears? It's clear you have an undying love for Cutler.

McDman its clear that you and your ilk do not have the ability nor do you attempt to realize the human brain is capable of rooting for a favoritie team and player(s) from various teams. Life is too short to be piegoned hole into a narrow mindedness. You loath Cutler that your right but do us all favor and quit acting like your insulted b/c not all fans feel the same way do. You need to GTFU! and realize not all Bronco fans are the same...but we are fans none-the-less.

I have been a Bronco fan since 1977...thank you very much.

Beantown Bronco
11-30-2009, 09:21 AM
You don't think that Brian Urlacher makes their defense better? Really?

He's the heart and soul of that defense. I can't imagine how anybody doesn't see that.

Problem is, nobody has seen THAT Brian Urlacher for more than a game or two at a time for awhile now. He's become injury prone and he's not getting any younger....he'll be 32 next May.

rastaman
11-30-2009, 09:22 AM
Dude you just say what is convenient for your position your takes are not often based in reality. Cutler would rather run the ball, ya right.

Come on Baja you know the 09 Bears can't run the ball as efficiently and consistenly like they did in 08.

Tombstone RJ
11-30-2009, 09:23 AM
McDman its clear that you and your ilk do not have the ability nor do you attempt to realize the human brain is capable of rooting for a favoritie team and player(s) from various teams. Life is too short to be piegoned hole into a narrow mindedness. You loath Cutler that your right but do us all favor and quit acting like your insulted b/c not all fans feel the same way do. You need to GTFU! and realize not all Bronco fans are the same...but we are fans none-the-less.

I have been a Bronco fan since 1977...thank you very much.

If you want to root for a QB, why not Brees? Rooting for Cutler is like kissing your sister, it makes your butt cheeks pucker.

baja
11-30-2009, 09:27 AM
Come on Baja you know the 09 Bears can't run the ball as efficiently and consistenly like they did in 08.

True but you state that Cutler thinks he is passing too much and given Jay's large ego that seems an absurd statement.

rastaman
11-30-2009, 09:27 AM
If you want to root for a QB, why not Brees? Rooting for Cutler is like kissing your sister, it makes your butt cheeks pucker.

Yeah whatever RJ......you and your "Brown Shirts" are now trying to tell fans who to root for. Where's the democracy and freedom when it comes to fanship.

Get real dude you're living in another world thats for sure.

rastaman
11-30-2009, 09:36 AM
True but you state that Cutler thinks he is passing too much and given Jay's large ego that seems an absurd statement.

Well back in August Cutler stated he was looking forward to the running attack becoming / remaining an integral clog of the offense.

Again Lovee & Turner determines and have final say how the game plan will be excuted every Sunday. Cutler merely executes the game plan put in front of him.

The only problem is the Bears offensive line inregards to protecting the QB and opening up running lanes for Forte has absolutely under performed in the 09 season. This is not to excuse Cutler's turn over in anyway. But the Bears Defense and Ofensive line has played terrible and inconsistent thru out the season.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
11-30-2009, 09:40 AM
Well back in August Cutler stated he was looking forward to the running attack becoming / remaining an integral clog of the offense.

Again Lovee & Turner determines and have final say how the game plan will be excuted every Sunday. Cutler merely executes the game plan put in front of him.

The only problem is the Bears offensive line inregards to protecting the QB and opening up running lanes for Forte has absolutely under performed in the 09 season. This is not to excuse Cutler's turn over in anyway. But the Bears Defense and Ofensive line has played terrible and inconsistent thru out the season.

Funny. When John Elway didn't like the game plan that was put in front of him, he attended more meetings and asked for more say in how the offense was run. He did so because he was driven to win and perform, not just earn a paycheck.

Cutler won't do that. know why? Because he's not a leader. Period. His attitude is "whatever" when it comes to playing football; it's just what he does in between drinking sessions.

And you simply can't blame the pressure on cutler for his terrible throws. He's been sacked less than Rodgers, Favre and Stafford, but he's thrown more picks. Last year he was sacked only 11 times, and he was second in the league in picks. Just stop making excuses. Stop it. You're embarrassing yourself.

Tombstone RJ
11-30-2009, 09:42 AM
Yeah whatever RJ......you and your "Brown Shirts" are now trying to tell fans who to root for. Where's the democracy and freedom when it comes to fanship.

Get real dude you're living in another world thats for sure.

What a crybaby. You sound like the Church Lady and Debbie Downer all rolled into one.

Here's some Stewart Smally for yah: "Your good enough, your smart enough and gosh darn it, you deserve to be a Broncos' fan!"


Feel better? Happy Holidays big guy, you hang tuff now! :yayaya:

HEAV
11-30-2009, 09:49 AM
Kyle Orton might not be the flashiest quarterback, but the guy is a winner, and that formula worked for us. I hate to say it, but that's the truth."

Truth hurts...for Bear fans & Cutler=Next Elway fans.

tsiguy96
11-30-2009, 09:54 AM
bears forums are turning on urlacher now.

Peoples Champ
11-30-2009, 10:01 AM
bears forums are turning on urlacher now.

thats aweful, it seems like no matter what you say, its NEVER Cutlers fault. He needs WR's or a Run game, or an OL, or a defense. I wonder how long it will be before people say its his fault? 7 years, 8 years, 9 years? Most qbs get 2-4 years to prove themselves. Cutler is at 3.5 now, so we will see after next year who they put the blame on. Im sure it will be Lovie smith.

NYBronc
11-30-2009, 10:17 AM
http://www.bangcartoon.com/2009/pick_sick.htm

Beantown Bronco
11-30-2009, 10:22 AM
http://www.bangcartoon.com/2009/pick_sick.htm

:rofl:

Wide receiver? What the hell is that? I think you mean kick returner....

oubronco
11-30-2009, 10:22 AM
The problem is their defense isn't near as good as it used to be and they lack alot of talent on the offensive side of the ball

I wonder if Jay wants to be there now

bfoflcommish
11-30-2009, 10:27 AM
i blame all the love for cutler on EA SPORTS AND JOHN MADDEN.

It's made some people step away from the reality of the game and only see it from 1 side.

Sassy
11-30-2009, 10:27 AM
Kyle Orton might not be the flashiest quarterback, but the guy is a winner,

TailgateNut
11-30-2009, 10:39 AM
Well back in August Cutler stated he was looking forward to the running attack becoming / remaining an integral clog of the offense.

Again Lovee & Turner determines and have final say how the game plan will be excuted every Sunday. Cutler merely executes the game plan put in front of him.

The only problem is the Bears offensive line inregards to protecting the QB and opening up running lanes for Forte has absolutely under performed in the 09 season. This is not to excuse Cutler's turn over in anyway. But the Bears Defense and Ofensive line has played terrible and inconsistent thru out the season.

I highly doubt that part of the "game plan" is to throw into double and triple coverage, nor to set new NFL interception records.ROFL!

Garcia Bronco
11-30-2009, 11:10 AM
I highly doubt that part of the "game plan" is to throw into double and triple coverage, nor to set new NFL interception records.ROFL!

I know right. I doubt turner designs plays to throw into double coverage. Or overthrow the receiver. Jay Cutler just isn't smart enough to read the field. He's a greedy little **** which is probably a result of poor home training.

azbroncfan
11-30-2009, 11:14 AM
bears forums are turning on urlacher now.

There are a ton of Chicago folks here in Arizona and all of them yesterday were hating on Cutler and saying what a stupid trade it was. I just kicked back and smiled. One guy was saying we already had this same QB in Grossman which is a pretty good comparison. Great games followed by absolutely terrible games.

tsiguy96
11-30-2009, 11:26 AM
There are a ton of Chicago folks here in Arizona and all of them yesterday were hating on Cutler and saying what a stupid trade it was. I just kicked back and smiled. One guy was saying we already had this same QB in Grossman which is a pretty good comparison. Great games followed by absolutely terrible games.

hey i live in illinois its a joke to a lot of people, but for the most part people wont blame cutler yet. forgetting that last year he did the same **** with an elite oline and elite WR.

im talking about chicago bears message boards, talking about how they lost respect for brian and he can go screw himself cuz hes not on the field. a HOF linebacker who was THE reason they went to the SB, and thats the way they treat him to suck off their new QB

Peoples Champ
11-30-2009, 11:36 AM
There are a ton of Chicago folks here in Arizona and all of them yesterday were hating on Cutler and saying what a stupid trade it was. I just kicked back and smiled. One guy was saying we already had this same QB in Grossman which is a pretty good comparison. Great games followed by absolutely terrible games.


ya its funny when you live around a lot of Bears fans. I have heard there is a lot in AZ. There is a lot here in STL too, and my moms family lives in Chicago. Its funny how there opinions change from beginning of the year to end of the year. My friends fantasy football team name was Thank you Broncos at the beginning of the year, its now Cutler sucks.

Rohirrim
11-30-2009, 11:43 AM
20 INTs. Man, what an arm! He sure can zip it in there.

McDman
11-30-2009, 11:43 AM
McDman its clear that you and your ilk do not have the ability nor do you attempt to realize the human brain is capable of rooting for a favoritie team and player(s) from various teams. Life is too short to be piegoned hole into a narrow mindedness. You loath Cutler that your right but do us all favor and quit acting like your insulted b/c not all fans feel the same way do. You need to GTFU! and realize not all Bronco fans are the same...but we are fans none-the-less.

I have been a Bronco fan since 1977...thank you very much.

I'd like to see where I ever said I loathed Cutler, it'd be interesting because I don't remember ever saying it. I've never liked him as a person and I have hoped for him to do poorly for our draft picks, but I have never claimed I loathed him. You're clearly making things up here, in fact I have probably only commented in about three of the hundred Cutler threads on here.

I liked him as a QB, but did not want that kind of person on our team.

Almost every post I see of yours is trashing McD, Moreno, or this team while sucking off Cutler. It's you who needs to do us all a favor and finally just go over to there boards. You're one of the few people on here who never stops bitching about something.

Peoples Champ
11-30-2009, 11:46 AM
I'd like to see where I ever said I loathed Cutler, it'd be interesting because I don't remember ever saying it. I've never liked him as a person and I have hoped for him to do poorly for our draft picks, but I have never claimed I loathed him. You're clearly making things up here, in fact I have probably only commented in about three of the hundred Cutler threads on here.

I liked him as a QB, but did not want that kind of person on our team.

Almost every post I see of yours is trashing McD, Moreno, or this team while sucking off Cutler. It's you who needs to do us all a favor and finally just go over to there boards. You're one of the few people on here who never stops b****ing about something.


Ya, I think some people want Cutler to do bad for trade picks, and to justify this blockbuster trade. Not all people loath Cutler. Some people might, but not all people.

Popps
11-30-2009, 11:59 AM
Urlacher also likes Cutler's toughness and no quit attitude. But Urlacher doesn't hesitate to say Culter just throws too many interceptions and forces throws in tight coverage and triple teams.

Its not Cutler who turned the Bears into passing first and run second so much as it is Turner sending in all the plays. I'm sure Cutler would rather run the ball more as well, its just that the O Line just isn't making space for Matt Forte' to run btwn like back in 2008 when Forte ran for over 1,200 yards.

Hilarious!

So, basically all Cutler needs to win is this...

1. A top-ranked defense
2. A to-ranked running game
3. Very limited passing attempts
4. The best coaches in the game

Wow, I thought a "franchise" quarterback was supposed to help you overcome some shortcomings in other ares? You know, like Rivers has done in San Diego.

Gosh, so... if everything is perfect for Jay and he's not asked to do anything but be a game manager, he might be able to win games?

You mean, he's basically an overpaid, over-hyped Kyle Orton? (Maybe)


(Collective Bears fans let out a big "oops.")

lex
11-30-2009, 12:01 PM
Urlacher is being totally fair in describing the changing identity of the team but its not absolutely driven by bringing in Cutler. It also has to do with the defense struggling and guys like Urlacher breaking down with greater frequency. To compensate, the appeal of rolling the dice on a QB who can win games (vs not lose games) starts to have more appeal.


Tommie Harris hasnt really been delivering. He used to be a big part of their success.

Urlacher has been breaking down whether its the back or wrist.

Nate Vasher has been a dud lately and an overpaid one considering he is a cover 2 corner.

Tillman only tries to strip the ball and as a result misses a lot of tackles, which is bad for a DB.

Taco John
11-30-2009, 12:02 PM
Hilarious!

So, basically all Cutler needs to win is this...

1. A top-ranked defense
2. A to-ranked running game
3. Very limited passing attempts
4. The best coaches in the game



That's what Brady, Manning, and for that matter, Elway needed. That's what we're going to need to get back to the top.

chex
11-30-2009, 12:09 PM
That's what Brady, Manning, and for that matter, Elway needed. That's what we're going to need to get back to the top.

Hogwash.

Those teams won because of those guys, not the other way around.

Tom Brady was winning Super Bowls throwing to Troy Brown and David Patten. Of course you need to be solid across the board, but to suggest that any of the QBs you mentioned needed top flight talent everywhere to win is misguided IMO. Great QBs, franchise QBs, are labeled as such for their propensity to lift their teams and win. Plenty of QBs have won the Super Bowl and NOT be the reason for it.

Peoples Champ
11-30-2009, 12:12 PM
Hogwash.

Those teams won because of those guys, not the other way around.

Tom Brady was winning Super Bowls throwing to Troy Brown and David Patten. Of course you need to be solid across the board, but to suggest that any of the QBs you mentioned needed top flight talent everywhere to win is misguided IMO. Great QBs, franchise QBs, are labeled as such for their propensity to lift their teams and win. Plenty of QBs have won the Super Bowl and NOT be the reason for it.

I agree, Great players have the ability to make their team great and motivate their players. I remember watching the Bronco SB video and the players said they all wanted to "win one for John". You will never hear "lets win one for Jay"

Br0nc0Buster
11-30-2009, 12:14 PM
Hogwash.

Those teams won because of those guys, not the other way around.

Tom Brady was winning Super Bowls throwing to Troy Brown and David Patten. Of course you need to be solid across the board, but to suggest that any of the QBs you mentioned needed top flight talent everywhere to win is misguided IMO. Great QBs, franchise QBs, are labeled as such for their propensity to lift their teams and win. Plenty of QBs have won the Super Bowl and NOT be the reason for it.

this
franchise qbs make their team better
make players around them better

this cannot be said for the Bears with Jay Cutler

Peoples Champ
11-30-2009, 12:21 PM
this
franchise qbs make their team better
make players around them better

this cannot be said for the Bears with Jay Cutler

yup, look at what Peyton Manning is doing with his rookie WR's, and when the Colts won the SB, they had the worst run Defense in the NFL. THen when they got to the playoffs, Manning had that D motivated and they stiffened up and did a great job of stopping the run. (ya I know bob sanders missed a lot of games that year, but I still believed that D played above there capabilities in the playoffs)

Taco John
11-30-2009, 12:28 PM
Hogwash.

Those teams won because of those guys, not the other way around.

Tom Brady was winning Super Bowls throwing to Troy Brown and David Patten. Of course you need to be solid across the board, but to suggest that any of the QBs you mentioned needed top flight talent everywhere to win is misguided IMO. Great QBs, franchise QBs, are labeled as such for their propensity to lift their teams and win. Plenty of QBs have won the Super Bowl and NOT be the reason for it.


If all it took was an elite quarterback, then Elway would have 15 rings, and Marino might have at least one.

Popps
11-30-2009, 12:29 PM
That's what Brady, Manning, and for that matter, Elway needed. That's what we're going to need to get back to the top.

Really?

Wow, I must have missed Manning throwing INTs at a 4 per game clip.

Strange, because I remember Elway carrying crappy teams on his back to Superbowls. Then again, I was actually watching the Broncos in the 80s,


Anyway, you're right, Taco... there's probably no difference between Elway, Manning and Jay Cutler.

:thumbsup:

Popps
11-30-2009, 12:31 PM
If all it took was an elite quarterback, then Elway would have 15 rings.

Again, no one said that's "all it took."

The question is, why does a supposed "franchise" quarterback have so much trouble on the same team where Kyle Orton was a winner?

Urlacher is all but telling you the answer. Not that I expect you to listen.


I'm sure Cutler leading the league in INTs again is everyone else's fault but his own. He did it behind the best line in football with a Hall of Fame offensive coach and it was "the running game's fault." Now he can't win on a team where Kyle Orton won, and they need to fire the whole coaching staff.

Yep, he's franchise, alright. ::)

Popps
11-30-2009, 12:31 PM
Urlacher is being totally fair in describing the changing identity of the team but its not absolutely driven by bringing in Cutler. It also has to do with the defense struggling and guys like Urlacher breaking down with greater frequency. To compensate, the appeal of rolling the dice on a QB who can win games (vs not lose games) starts to have more appeal.


Tommie Harris hasnt really been delivering. He used to be a big part of their success..

Hilarious!

Now Jay Cutler's INTs are Tommie Harris' fault!




I love this place.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
11-30-2009, 12:37 PM
Urlacher is being totally fair in describing the changing identity of the team but its not absolutely driven by bringing in Cutler.

I disagree. The Bears (and in fact the entire city of Chicago) were all seduced by the raw arm strength of Cutler, just as Shanahan was when he drafted Cutler in '06. So seduced were the Bears that they gave up the farm to get him, surrounded him with "weapons for success" (like the o-line that was supposed to be vastly improved, and the wideouts that Cutler defended before the season as "just fine") and neglected other issues. Shanahan did the same thing. Drafted his new hotshot quarterback, neglected the defense to draft more offense.

You get someone who has a rep as a "franchise" and you immediately want to spend a ton of resources to justify the trade. Chicago tried, and failed. Shanahan tried, and failed. At some point, you have to link those failures together, don't you?

Meck77
11-30-2009, 12:42 PM
I wonder what the Cutler apologists will use for an excuse after Cutler fails to make the playoffs again next year. He's average. He's just not a winner. I've been telling you that for years.

Jay Cutler give us the best chance to win right now! Bwwahhhaa

Popps
11-30-2009, 12:42 PM
I disagree. The Bears (and in fact the entire city of Chicago) were all seduced by the raw arm strength of Cutler, just as Shanahan was when he drafted Cutler in '06. So seduced were the Bears that they gave up the farm to get him, surrounded him with "weapons for success" (like the o-line that was supposed to be vastly improved, and the wideouts that Cutler defended before the season as "just fine") and neglected other issues. Shanahan did the same thing. Drafted his new hotshot quarterback, neglected the defense to draft more offense.

You get someone who has a rep as a "franchise" and you immediately want to spend a ton of resources to justify the trade. Chicago tried, and failed. Shanahan tried, and failed. At some point, you have to link those failures together, don't you?


Exactly. He's not being unfair, he's using logic and evidence.

Want more? Look at the 2009 Broncos. A winning team that takes care of the ball. In other words, we exported our problems to Chicago and in return received an intelligent QB who could take care of the ball and give us a chance to win.

Urlacher is just a first-hand, eye-witness of what should be fairly obvious to anyone watching.

TonyR
11-30-2009, 12:44 PM
That's what Brady, Manning, and for that matter, Elway needed. That's what we're going to need to get back to the top.

Manning's D's were never "great" and he often has lacked a top running game. And I've never noticed Manning's pass attempts being "limited".
Brady has almost always lacked a top running game.
Elway never had a "great" defense.
And Brady, Manning, and Elway all made their coaches look better no matter who they were.

chex
11-30-2009, 12:45 PM
If all it took was an elite quarterback, then Elway would have 15 rings, and Marino might have at least one.

I never said thats all it took, but you implied that franchise QBs are impotent unless their teams have topflight talent everywhere, and I called that misguided.

Id like you to name some QBs that would take the 86 team to the Super Bowl. And as added reference, prior to Zimmerman joining the team, the only OL that made the Pro Bowl those years was Keith Bishop. And how many receivers prior to Sharpe made the Pro Bowl with Elway at QB? Yet he brought 3 teams to the Super Bowl with Vance Johnson as his top receiving threat.

Bottom line is, you are not a franchise QB until you actually, you know, win something. Or at least have a winning career record for chrissakes. Again, franchise QBs make their team better, not the other way around.

Peoples Champ
11-30-2009, 12:49 PM
Exactly. He's not being unfair, he's using logic and evidence.

Want more? Look at the 2009 Broncos. A winning team that takes care of the ball. In other words, we exported our problems to Chicago and in return received an intelligent QB who could take care of the ball and give us a chance to win.

Urlacher is just a first-hand, eye-witness of what should be fairly obvious to anyone watching.

plus 1

Rohirrim
11-30-2009, 12:52 PM
Manning's D's were never "great" and he often has lacked a top running game. And I've never noticed Manning's pass attempts being "limited".
Brady has almost always lacked a top running game.
Elway never had a "great" defense.
And Brady, Manning, and Elway all made their coaches look better no matter who they were.

Dan (cough) Reeves.

Peoples Champ
11-30-2009, 12:52 PM
I never said thats all it took, but you implied that franchise QBs are impotent unless their teams have topflight talent everywhere, and I called that misguided.

Id like you to name some QBs that would take the 86 team to the Super Bowl. And as added reference, prior to Zimmerman joining the team, the only OL that made the Pro Bowl those years was Keith Bishop. And how many receivers prior to Sharpe made the Pro Bowl with Elway at QB? Yet he brought 3 teams to the Super Bowl with Vance Johnson as his top receiving threat.

Bottom line is, you are not a franchise QB until you actually, you know, win something. Or at least have a winning career record for chrissakes. Again, franchise QBs make their team better, not the other way around.


Yep, I remember the other players on the Chicago Bulls said that whenever they played with Michael Jordan, they played better then they ever thought they can, because Jordan had that uncanny ability to make everyone better. Its called Leadership, and the great ones have it in team sports.

Taco John
11-30-2009, 12:53 PM
Wow, I must have missed Manning throwing INTs at a 4 per game clip.


Really? You missed that? I guess I shouldn't be suprised about that.

Manning had a lot of interception trouble in his early career - particularly his fourth and fifth year as a pro. Peyton Manning threw 4 INTs (http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2001112508/2001/REG11/49ers@colts) against (guess who) the San Francisco 49ers. Three weeks later, he threw 3 INTs against the Jay Fiedler Dolphins (http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2001121000/2001/REG13/colts@dolphins). Earlier that season he threw 3 INTs against the Pats (http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2001093005/2001/REG3/colts@patriots). In 2002, the Dolphins pulled 3 INTs from him (http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2002091510/2002/REG2/dolphins@colts) the Steelers pulled 3 more from him (http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2002102100/2002/REG7/colts@steelers), and the Titans pulled 3 from him (http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2002120810/2002/REG14/colts@titans).

At the time Manning detractors said it was because he couldn't handle the pressure and that he couldn't read defenses. I think it was more that he was asked to do everything on that team, and needed more support from his teammates.

Whatever the reason, it turned out that it took an elite effort from the entire team to get him over the top.

DBroncos4life
11-30-2009, 12:56 PM
yup, look at what Peyton Manning is doing with his rookie WR's, and when the Colts won the SB, they had the worst run Defense in the NFL. THen when they got to the playoffs, Manning had that D motivated and they stiffened up and did a great job of stopping the run. (ya I know bob sanders missed a lot of games that year, but I still believed that D played above there capabilities in the playoffs)

While I don't disagree that elite QBs will make the team better, but lets not act like Manning is ONLY playing with a bunch of rookie WRs. I don't know if you heard of Reggie Wayne or anything but he is leading the NFL in yards, receptions, and targets. So Manning is leaning on him. I don't think we can forget about Dallas Clark. He is fourth in receptions and third among TE's in targets with 92. NE, Pitt and AZ are the only other teams that have two targets from the same team in the top twenty.

Again Cutler is playing very poor, but lets not like he is in his 12 year within his system with elite players around him like Manning.

Peoples Champ
11-30-2009, 01:00 PM
While I don't disagree that elite QBs will make the team better, but lets not act like Manning is ONLY playing with a bunch of rookie WRs. I don't know if you heard of Reggie Wayne or anything but he is leading the NFL in yards, receptions, and targets. So Manning is leaning on him. I don't think we can forget about Dallas Clark. He is fourth in receptions and third among TE's in targets with 92. NE, Pitt and AZ are the only other teams that have two targets from the same team in the top twenty.

Again Cutler is playing very poor, but lets not like he is in his 12 year within his system with elite players around him like Manning.


Your right, those rookies for the Colts are making a name for themselves because Defense are gameplanning to stop Wayne and Clark, but I am just saying leadership is a huge quality I havent seen in Cutler. That doesnt mean he cant change, but just havent seen it yet.

Taco John
11-30-2009, 01:03 PM
The question is, why does a supposed "franchise" quarterback have so much trouble on the same team where Kyle Orton was a winner?



I personally think it's coaching. I have long thought the Bears offensive coaching to be crap. I think with Kyle Orton, they played within themselves and the limitations of Kyle, and managed to put together a good campaign. I think they went pie in the sky and abandoned the things that made their offense work last year when they got a QB who could make any throw on the field on their squad.

That's not to say that Cutler doesn't have problems. I thought he had problems in Denver, and I still think he has problems. I think he's an immature guy, and needs someone to anchor him. He had that to a degree in Denver with Jeremy Bates. I don't think he has that in Chicago.

Just look at what Shanahan did to Elway's game as a young QB coach. I think that's what Cutler needs: a young brilliant offensive mind who can help complete his grooming and keep him centered around the fundamentals but still aggressive. Someone who can help him maximize his strengths and minimize his weaknesses, and will be his primary advocate. Right now, he's the center of attention on that team, and he needs someone on his side who can take the heat off of him, without him having to say it himself.

orangemonkey
11-30-2009, 01:03 PM
Really?

Wow, I must have missed Manning throwing INTs at a 4 per game clip.

Strange, because I remember Elway carrying crappy teams on his back to Superbowls. Then again, I was actually watching the Broncos in the 80s,


Anyway, you're right, Taco... there's probably no difference between Elway, Manning and Jay Cutler.

:thumbsup:

Actually, Peyton's 4th year statistics were very similar to Cutler's this year. He threw 23 INT's, 4 against SFO, 3 against NE and 3 against Miami and sets of 2 three times. The Colts only had 6 wins that year. Also Peyton played 4 full seasons from the beginning unlike Jay.

Peyton threw 28 INTs in his NFL freshman year and set the franchise record for INTs in 2007 by throwing 6 picks to SD.

Jay will be fine. He has all of the tools (including intelligence) to be one of the best. Once he settles down and gets a better attitude (like Peyton did), the kid will kill it out there with more consistency. I heard a post game interview after the bears game on Sunday and one Bear said, "with Jay, you always feel like you have a chance". That's pretty cool.

I find it hilarious how people forget what an ass**** and selfish person Peyton was during his first 5 or 6 years.

Orton has a big heart and a good attitude but he is also a big reason our Offense has been less than mediocre this year. Let's hope our much improved defense and newly improved running game can make up for Orton's deficiencies.

NUB
11-30-2009, 01:06 PM
Even an average o-line would be an upgrade for the Bears who seem completely unable to run or pass block. I don't know how their line was last year, but of all the games I've seen this year Forte is running into defensive walls right at the line of scrimmage. A solid pass rush against the unit can be accomplished without blitzing. These are fundamental offensive problems. I think it was Aikman who mentioned that Cutler didn't even get to see a lot of his completed passes because he was getting hit right as he was releasing.

The defense is just hit and miss. Dunno what their deal is.

As a reminder, Denver does have Chicago's #1 this coming year. Unfortunately we still traded (wasted) away our other #1 so blockbuster deals for sure-things may be out of the question.

Lev Vyvanse
11-30-2009, 01:08 PM
Whatever the reason, it turned out that it took an elite effort from the entire team to get him over the top.

Indy 2006
Team D: 21st
Team rushing: 18th

Thats elite?

Taco John
11-30-2009, 01:10 PM
I find it hilarious how people forget what an ass**** and selfish person Peyton was during his first 5 or 6 years.



Peyton Manning threw his offensive line under the bus so many times in his early career... It really took him a while before he understood that you have to shoulder the blame yourself. Cutler has shown signs of understanding that, but when it comes to taking blame, he still uses the word "we" too much instead of "I."

lex
11-30-2009, 01:11 PM
I disagree. The Bears (and in fact the entire city of Chicago) were all seduced by the raw arm strength of Cutler, just as Shanahan was when he drafted Cutler in '06. So seduced were the Bears that they gave up the farm to get him, surrounded him with "weapons for success" (like the o-line that was supposed to be vastly improved, and the wideouts that Cutler defended before the season as "just fine") and neglected other issues. Shanahan did the same thing. Drafted his new hotshot quarterback, neglected the defense to draft more offense.

You get someone who has a rep as a "franchise" and you immediately want to spend a ton of resources to justify the trade. Chicago tried, and failed. Shanahan tried, and failed. At some point, you have to link those failures together, don't you?

Im not sure what youre disagreeing with. That doesnt really line up with what I said.

Taco John
11-30-2009, 01:11 PM
Indy 2006
Team D: 21st
Team rushing: 18th

Thats elite?


During the season both units were a joke. It wasn't until the post season that both units put it together and really carried the team to the top. As I recall, Peyton had a pretty weak post-season, but the team around him put it together.

Mr.Meanie
11-30-2009, 01:12 PM
Even an average o-line would be an upgrade for the Bears who seem completely unable to run or pass block. I don't know how their line was last year, but of all the games I've seen this year Forte is running into defensive walls right at the line of scrimmage. A solid pass rush against the unit can be accomplished without blitzing. These are fundamental offensive problems. I think it was Aikman who mentioned that Cutler didn't even get to see a lot of his completed passes because he was getting hit right as he was releasing.

The defense is just hit and miss. Dunno what their deal is.

As a reminder, Denver does have Chicago's #1 this coming year. Unfortunately we still traded (wasted) away our other #1 so blockbuster deals for sure-things may be out of the question.

Sure-things? The draft is a crapshoot even in the top of the first round with highly scouted, highly touted college kids. The only sure thing in the draft is that there are no sure-things.

NUB
11-30-2009, 01:13 PM
Sure thing *finger quotes*

lex
11-30-2009, 01:14 PM
During the season both units were a joke. It wasn't until the post season that both units put it together and really carried the team to the top. As I recall, Peyton had a pretty weak post-season, but the team around him put it together.

Same thing with the Cards last year. When they started winning in the post season there was chestpounding that it was validation for being pass happy, except that when the post season came around the Cards were more dedicated to running and were actually effective, which is rolling the dice since its not automatic you can become an effective running team after you had neglected it most of the year.

crawdad
11-30-2009, 01:15 PM
This is why I never liked Jay Cutler, I supported him as Bronco but I couldn't stand this shat!

Popps
11-30-2009, 01:16 PM
Really? You missed that? I guess I shouldn't be suprised about that.

Manning had a lot of interception trouble in his early career - particularly his fourth and fifth year as a pro. Peyton Manning threw 4 INTs (http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2001112508/2001/REG11/49ers@colts) against (guess who) the San Francisco 49ers. Three weeks later, he threw 3 INTs against the Jay Fiedler Dolphins (http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2001121000/2001/REG13/colts@dolphins). Earlier that season he threw 3 INTs against the Pats (http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2001093005/2001/REG3/colts@patriots). In 2002, the Dolphins pulled 3 INTs from him (http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2002091510/2002/REG2/dolphins@colts) the Steelers pulled 3 more from him (http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2002102100/2002/REG7/colts@steelers), and the Titans pulled 3 from him (http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2002120810/2002/REG14/colts@titans).
.


Taco, outside of his rookie season, Manning has never had a season anywhere near as bad as Cutler is having this year. 20 INTs and leading the league in red-zone INTs?

The comparison is just idiotic. There's no correlation. Cutler has as much in common with Ryan Leaf as he does Peyton Manning.... literally.

Popps
11-30-2009, 01:19 PM
I personally think it's coaching. I have long thought the Bears offensive coaching to be crap. I think with Kyle Orton, they played within themselves and the limitations of Kyle, and managed to put together a good campaign.

Wait... so, it's coaching as long as Jay Cutler is the QB, but when Kyle Orton is the QB in the SAME EXACT system and with essentially the same players, the coaches "play within themselves?"

Hilarious!

Taco John
11-30-2009, 01:20 PM
Taco, outside of his rookie season, Manning has never had a season anywhere near as bad as Cutler is having this year. 20 INTs and leading the league in red-zone INTs?



You just got proven wrong. Check the 2001 season.

When you get proven wrong, what you're supposed to do is adjust, not pretend that it didn't happen.

outdoor_miner
11-30-2009, 01:22 PM
As a reminder, Denver does have Chicago's #1 this coming year. Unfortunately we still traded (wasted) away our other #1 so blockbuster deals for sure-things may be out of the question.

You already think Smith has proven he can't play in this league? A rookie playing one of the hardest positions in the NFL is already a bust, and that pick was a "waste"?

It is looking like Denver's pick would have been in the 20s (had we kept it). Smith can easily live up to that type of draft position. As I said at the time of the trade, if he becomes a very good starter for the defense, it will be a good pick.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
11-30-2009, 01:22 PM
Im not sure what youre disagreeing with. That doesnt really line up with what I said.

It does. You said it wasn't "because" of Cutler. I showed that it was. He may not have caused it by his actions, but the mere fact that they were willing to trade for him and his pro bowl arm and neglect other needs is BECAUSE of "JAY CUTLER - FRANCHISE QUARTERBACK." Again, it's not his "fault," per se, but he was the cause.

Killericon
11-30-2009, 01:24 PM
Orton is a Jeep. May not look pretty or go fast, but it can drive you anywhere. Cutler is a Ferrari. Given the right conditions, it can go absurdly fast, but if the road is rocky or there's a minor mechanical problem, it all goes to hell.

NUB
11-30-2009, 01:24 PM
You already think Smith has proven he can't play in this league? A rookie playing one of the hardest positions in the NFL is already a bust, and that pick was a "waste"?

It is looking like Denver's pick would have been in the 20s (had we kept it). Smith can easily live up to that type of draft position. As I said at the time of the trade, if he becomes a very good starter for the defense, it will be a good pick.

I don't think a slow, short corner is going to do well. That aside, I also don't think the trade made any sense and Seattle won it through and through. Other deals could have been made that didn't require surrendering a first whose position you did not know. IIRC, the Panthers also traded back into a position before that one and they did not use a first to do it.

Taco John
11-30-2009, 01:25 PM
Wait... so, it's coaching as long as Jay Cutler is the QB, but when Kyle Orton is the QB in the SAME EXACT system and with essentially the same players, the coaches "play within themselves?"

Hilarious!


Absolutely. I don't know how it is with little girls, but with my little boy, when I give him a new toy, he is out trying to test the limits with it. With a simple toy, say a puzzle, he can't get into too much trouble with it. It's pretty well contained. With a more complex toy, say a flashing plastic lightsaber, he manages to get into more trouble with it because he can do more with it to cause trouble.

I think that's analogous to the situation that the Bears coaches find themselves in. Obviously the metaphor isn't perfect, but the Bears have abandoned what worked for them last season in search of an agressive passing game. I think that was a mistake. I think their problem is that they don't have a truly foundational offensive philosophy that dictates how they use the pieces that they have. I suspect that will probably be one of their next steps.

Taco John
11-30-2009, 01:26 PM
Orton is a Jeep. May not look pretty or go fast, but it can drive you anywhere. Cutler is a Ferrari. Given the right conditions, it can go absurdly fast, but if the road is rocky or there's a minor mechanical problem, it all goes to hell.

Another good metaphor.

orangemonkey
11-30-2009, 01:26 PM
Exactly. He's not being unfair, he's using logic and evidence.

Want more? Look at the 2009 Broncos. A winning team that takes care of the ball. In other words, we exported our problems to Chicago and in return received an intelligent QB who could take care of the ball and give us a chance to win.

Urlacher is just a first-hand, eye-witness of what should be fairly obvious to anyone watching.

I disagree. Taking care of the ball is great when a QB's "other" statistics are stellar or at least top tier.

Orton's rankings this year so far on other key stats:
INT's - 1st (way above Cutler obviously)
QB rating - 14th (above Cutler)
Completion percentage - 14th (below Cuter)
Total yards - 15th (below Cutler)
Yards per game - 17th (below Cutler)
TD's - 18th (way below Cutler)
1st downs - 18th (below Cutler)

I think you give Orton way too much credit in our wins and not enough to other facets of the "team" most notably the defense and offensive line. Another quick statistic: Cutler has been sacked almost twice that of Orton, 25 v 14.

I argue that Orton has been an Achilles Heel for this team because of the results above similar to how Cutler's INT's have affected Chicago.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
11-30-2009, 01:28 PM
I disagree. Taking care of the ball is great when a QB's "other" statistics are stellar or at least top tier.

Orton's rankings this year so far on other key stats:
INT's - 1st (way above Cutler obviously)
QB rating - 14th (above Cutler)
Completion percentage - 14th (below Cuter)
Total yards - 15th (below Cutler)
Yards per game - 17th (below Cutler)
TD's - 18th (way below Cutler)
1st downs - 18th (below Cutler)

I think you give you Orton way too much credit in our wins and not enough to other facets of the "team" most notably the defense and offensive line. Another quick statistic: Cutler has been sacked almost twice that of Orton, 25 v 14.

I argue that Orton has been an Achilles Heel for this team because of the results above similar to how Cutler's INT's have affected Chicago.

Stop quoting the sack statistic. it's absurd.

Cutler is the least-sacked QB in the NFC North, and he has the second worst record. It isn't relevant. He forces throws he shouldn't force, whether there's pressure or not.

BroncoBuff
11-30-2009, 01:32 PM
It's all true ... but Urlacher's a piece of crap for saying it.

Peoples Champ
11-30-2009, 01:33 PM
I disagree. Taking care of the ball is great when a QB's "other" statistics are stellar or at least top tier.

Orton's rankings this year so far on other key stats:
INT's - 1st (way above Cutler obviously)
QB rating - 14th (above Cutler)
Completion percentage - 14th (below Cuter)
Total yards - 15th (below Cutler)
Yards per game - 17th (below Cutler)
TD's - 18th (way below Cutler)
1st downs - 18th (below Cutler)

I think you give Orton way too much credit in our wins and not enough to other facets of the "team" most notably the defense and offensive line. Another quick statistic: Cutler has been sacked almost twice that of Orton, 25 v 14.

I argue that Orton has been an Achilles Heel for this team because of the results above similar to how Cutler's INT's have affected Chicago.


There is one stat I care about, 7-4, w-L record, I dont care about any other stats or how flashy it is.

outdoor_miner
11-30-2009, 01:34 PM
I don't think a slow, short corner is going to do well. That aside, I also don't think the trade made any sense and Seattle won it through and through. Other deals could have been made that didn't require surrendering a first whose position you did not know. IIRC, the Panthers also traded back into a position before that one and they did not use a first to do it.

Are you talking about Carolina's trade for Everette Brown in the 2nd? Carolina traded this year's first for him.

As for Smith - I don't know if he'll be great or not. But teams run that risk with every draft pick. There are numerous short cornerbacks playing at a Pro Bowl level, and I certainly haven't seen him look "slow" while he is playing. Maybe he'll never be Champ Bailey, but he certainly has the ability to be a very good player. You don't need every 1st round pick to be a super star.

NUB
11-30-2009, 01:37 PM
Are you talking about Carolina's trade for Everette Brown in the 2nd? Carolina traded this year's first for him.

As for Smith - I don't know if he'll be great or not. But teams run that risk with every draft pick. There are numerous short cornerbacks playing at a Pro Bowl level, and I certainly haven't seen him look "slow" while he is playing. Maybe he'll never be Champ Bailey, but he certainly has the ability to be a very good player. You don't need every 1st round pick to be a super star.

I believe Carolina got more back than just a pick.

Smith... just not high on him at all.

Taco John
11-30-2009, 01:42 PM
Stop quoting the sack statistic. it's absurd.

Cutler is the least-sacked QB in the NFC North, and he has the second worst record. It isn't relevant. He forces throws he shouldn't force, whether there's pressure or not.

I agree with this. Part of Cutler's immaturity, IMO, is that he doesn't know when to just take a sack (or throw the ball out of bounds) and live to see another down.

I think the sack statistic is noteworthy as an indicator, however, when interpreted alongside the INT number - and I think that it's a stat that shows how efficient the quarterback and offensive line are working as a unit.

orangemonkey
11-30-2009, 01:42 PM
Stop quoting the sack statistic. it's absurd.

Cutler is the least-sacked QB in the NFC North, and he has the second worst record. It isn't relevant. He forces throws he shouldn't force, whether there's pressure or not.

I didn't quote the sack stat to defend Cutler. His INT problem this year isn't really defensible. He feels like he has to carry the team or in your words, "force" a lot of stuff he shouldn't.

I quoted the stat to show that Orton is ranked #8 in QBs least sacked. With his average/below average production, why do you think that is? Because he throws the ball away a lot to "keep it safe?"

Popps
11-30-2009, 01:47 PM
I disagree. Taking care of the ball is great when a QB's "other" statistics are stellar or at least top tier.

Orton's rankings this year so far on other key stats:
INT's - 1st (way above Cutler obviously)
QB rating - 14th (above Cutler)
Completion percentage - 14th (below Cuter)
Total yards - 15th (below Cutler)
Yards per game - 17th (below Cutler)
TD's - 18th (way below Cutler)
1st downs - 18th (below Cutler)

I think you give Orton way too much credit in our wins and not enough to other facets of the "team" most notably the defense and offensive line. Another quick statistic: Cutler has been sacked almost twice that of Orton, 25 v 14.

I argue that Orton has been an Achilles Heel for this team because of the results above similar to how Cutler's INT's have affected Chicago.


Orton has a higher QB rating, less INTs and 4 less TDs than Cutler... despite playing 6 less quarters.

As for Jay and his sacks, the myth that his line is to blame has already been crushed into little pieces. We've covered it in great detail. He was NOT pressured at an abnormal pace this season, and he played behind one of the best lines in football last season. Yet, he led the league in INTs (2nd last year) both seasons.

So, you can play with stats and numbers all you like. I prefer to stick to the important ones...

Orton - Winner - only 6 INTs with Broncos. Winner with Bears.

Cutler - Loser - 20 INTs with Bears. Loser with Broncos.


We can talk this in circles all you want. It still won't change reality.

Bronco Yoda
11-30-2009, 01:48 PM
i blame all the love for cutler on EA SPORTS AND JOHN MADDEN.

It's made some people step away from the reality of the game and only see it from 1 side.

I told you people long ago EA was the Devil ROFL!

orangemonkey
11-30-2009, 01:52 PM
Orton has a higher QB rating, less INTs and 4 less TDs than Cutler... despite playing 6 less quarters.

As for Jay and his sacks, the myth that his line is to blame has already been crushed into little pieces. We've covered it in great detail. He was NOT pressured at an abnormal pace this season, and he played behind one of the best lines in football last season. Yet, he led the league in INTs (2nd last year) both seasons.

So, you can play with stats and numbers all you like. I prefer to stick to the important ones...

Orton - Winner - only 6 INTs with Broncos. Winner with Bears.

Cutler - Loser - 20 INTs with Bears. Loser with Broncos.


We can talk this in circles all you want. It still won't change reality.

Hey buddy, I threw the Cutler comparisons up there for color. I give two sh*** about Cutler v Orton debate. What I care to discuss is Orton's and Denver's offensive mediocrity this year. With a strong oline, more consistent health in the RB stable and a top tier receiving corp, Orton is slowing us down.

lex
11-30-2009, 01:53 PM
It does. You said it wasn't "because" of Cutler. I showed that it was. He may not have caused it by his actions, but the mere fact that they were willing to trade for him and his pro bowl arm and neglect other needs is BECAUSE of "JAY CUTLER - FRANCHISE QUARTERBACK." Again, it's not his "fault," per se, but he was the cause.

Smart guy, the larger point was that the Bears looked to change their MO because their defense was faltering whether because of guys underperforming or because of guys like Urlacher starting to break down. Because of the defense faltering the old MO that Urlacher thinks fondly of was not in play as much any more. Up until the defense faltered they (being the coaches) were ok with QBs not losing. It wasnt "look at Cutlers big arm, lets become a one dimensioal team" as you suggest.

Beantown Bronco
11-30-2009, 01:53 PM
I love how some believe Cutler is all of a sudden going to have Peyton Manning's career because they both threw a lot of picks during their 4th seasons.

DBroncos4life
11-30-2009, 01:55 PM
I'm shocked that people are turning a blind eye to our problems. We dropped 17 spots in total O and 8 in points scored.

rmsanger
11-30-2009, 01:56 PM
Some of you guys and your weaksauce comments just need to let JC go... I know you still have some disdain for the man but please get over it. You throw Orton into that game against Minny and they get eaten alive just as they did with JC.

Lev Vyvanse
11-30-2009, 02:00 PM
I love how some believe Cutler is all of a sudden going to have Peyton Manning's career because they both threw a lot of picks during their 4th seasons.

Hilarious!
Orton blew his chance last year to have a great career only 12 picks damit.

Peoples Champ
11-30-2009, 02:01 PM
I love how some believe Cutler is all of a sudden going to have Peyton Manning's career because they both threw a lot of picks during their 4th seasons.

haha me too

bfoflcommish
11-30-2009, 02:02 PM
I told you people long ago EA was the Devil ROFL!

hehehe glad someone got it!

while I was being sarcastic I do think its true to a point. look at reggie bush too

TheElusiveKyleOrton
11-30-2009, 02:02 PM
Smart guy, the larger point was that the Bears looked to change their MO because their defense was faltering whether because of guys underperforming or because of guys like Urlacher starting to break down. Because of the defense faltering the old MO that Urlacher thinks fondly of was not in play as much any more. Up until the defense faltered they (being the coaches) were ok with QBs not losing. It wasnt "look at Cutlers big arm, lets become a one dimensioal team" as you suggest.

You don't find it interesting that the so called strong defense of Chicago started falling apart once Cutler joined the roster? You don't think that Cutler's picks, putting his defense in bad positions, has anything to do with Chicago's woes?

Really? You don't see them as related?

Urlacher is right. Once they got Cutler, they asked him to start throwing the ball all over the yard, and neglected the running game. It started game one, when he threw the ball 36 times (including four picks) in the loss at Green Bay.

The most attempts per game that Orton ever averaged was 31.

They changed the offense for the "Franchise".

now see if you can refute that without calling names.

Beantown Bronco
11-30-2009, 02:03 PM
I'm shocked that people are turning a blind eye to our problems. We dropped 17 spots in total O and 8 in points scored.

This is also year one of a COMPLETE offensive system/scheme change. Changes at QB, RB and OLine (due to injury and performance) all add to that.

You can't simply bring in a new system along with new players at key positions and expect things to be perfect from day one. People are REALLY getting spoiled by the defense here. Such an improvement is certainly the exception, not the rule.

DBroncos4life
11-30-2009, 02:11 PM
This is also year one of a COMPLETE offensive system/scheme change. Changes at QB, RB and OLine (due to injury and performance) all add to that.

You can't simply bring in a new system along with new players at key positions and expect things to be perfect from day one. People are REALLY getting spoiled by the defense here. Such an improvement is certainly the exception, not the rule.

That might be but I believe there are at least 12 NFL QBs that could have came in during the off-season and we would have more yards and points per game and wins.

Beantown Bronco
11-30-2009, 02:15 PM
That might be but I believe there are at least 12 NFL QBs that could have came in during the off-season and we would have more yards and points per game and wins.

But how many of those 12 were available in FA or could've come over in a trade along with 2 first rounders and a third rounder?

Peoples Champ
11-30-2009, 02:16 PM
But how many of those 12 were available in FA or could've come over in a trade along with 2 first rounders and a third rounder?


good point, we are supposed to be rebuilding, but we are 7-4, so I cant complain, if we were 4-7 I would be shouting.

DBroncos4life
11-30-2009, 02:23 PM
But how many of those 12 were available in FA or could've come over in a trade along with 2 first rounders and a third rounder?

I understand the value that we may get out of trading Cutler, but if we don't get anything out of it then its not a win. Ayers could be good but to be fair the Bears are getting way more value out of the 5th round pick that we gave them then the first rounder we got from them. While I like Orton we didn't up grade at all at QB. As you pointed out the turn around on D is beyond anything anyone could have even imagined. I'm not going to let our record over shadow the fact that I know we would be better if we had Rivers, Brees, Manning, Brady, Favre, Big Ben, Rodgers, Schaub, McNabb, and even Romo. With the Bears looking like they are giving us a top ten pick I think we are in the best position to get a QB like that. JMO

TheElusiveKyleOrton
11-30-2009, 02:26 PM
That might be but I believe there are at least 12 NFL QBs that could have came in during the off-season and we would have more yards and points per game and wins.

Name them.

Then tell us if they would have come with two firsts and a third. Or even ONE first and a third.

lex
11-30-2009, 02:32 PM
You don't find it interesting that the so called strong defense of Chicago started falling apart once Cutler joined the roster? You don't think that Cutler's picks, putting his defense in bad positions, has anything to do with Chicago's woes?

Really? You don't see them as related?

Urlacher is right. Once they got Cutler, they asked him to start throwing the ball all over the yard, and neglected the running game. It started game one, when he threw the ball 36 times (including four picks) in the loss at Green Bay.

The most attempts per game that Orton ever averaged was 31.

They changed the offense for the "Franchise".

now see if you can refute that without calling names.


Once again, Ill refer back to what I said before.

DBroncos4life
11-30-2009, 02:33 PM
Name them.

Then tell us if they would have come with two firsts and a third. Or even ONE first and a third.

For the love of god I'm saying there are at least twelve QBs that could have come in and preformed better then Orton while learning a new F'ing system. It has nothing to do with the trade it has everything to do with the QB situation. I was responding to the fact that Beantown claimed that we are in a new system and thats why we dropped from 2nd in yards to 18th and from 16th in points to 24th. If you can't think of 12 QBs that could walk in here and not preform better then Orton then I don't know what to tell you.

Northman
11-30-2009, 02:34 PM
Your right, the Bears defense is garbage. But I think thats what Urlacher was trying to say about changing Identities.

Instead of drafting up and building a solid Defense, they gave away their picks for a "rocket" arm and are trying to be a flashy/offensive team instead of a Defensive team. Or at least in the short term. Next year could be different.

Cha-ching.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
11-30-2009, 02:36 PM
Once again, Ill refer back to what I said before.

So you have no point. Got it.

Could have just said that.

Beantown Bronco
11-30-2009, 02:37 PM
For the love of god I'm saying there are at least twelve QBs that could have come in and preformed better then Orton while learning a new F'ing system. It has nothing to do with the trade it has everything to do with the QB situation. I was responding to the fact that Beantwon claimed that we are in a new system and thats why we dropped from 2nd in yards to 18th and from 16th in points to 24th. If you can't think of 12 QBs that could walk in here and not preform better then Orton then I don't know what to tell you.

All those guys on your list are better than Cutler too, so.....

UberBroncoMan
11-30-2009, 02:37 PM
Your right, the Bears defense is garbage. But I think thats what Urlacher was trying to say about changing Identities.

Instead of drafting up and building a solid Defense, they gave away their picks for a "rocket" arm and are trying to be a flashy/offensive team instead of a Defensive team. Or at least in the short term. Next year could be different.

Without a #1 and #2 draft pick it's going to be hard for them to change their identity much at all... not to mention they played the NFC West this year (very easy). I believe they face the AFC West next year though, so they potentially still get two gimme games unless they play at Arrowhead in December (always a toss up to me).

lex
11-30-2009, 02:39 PM
So you have no point. Got it.

Could have just said that.

Not one that is perceptible to you...obviously. But youve already been told.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
11-30-2009, 02:39 PM
For the love of god I'm saying there are at least twelve QBs that could have come in and preformed better then Orton while learning a new F'ing system. It has nothing to do with the trade it has everything to do with the QB situation. I was responding to the fact that Beantwon claimed that we are in a new system and thats why we dropped from 2nd in yards to 18th and from 16th in points to 24th. If you can't think of 12 QBs that could walk in here and not preform better then Orton then I don't know what to tell you.

And for the love of god, tell us who these miraculous 12 are who were also available for trade along with two firsts and a third.

You can't say it has nothing to do with the trade, because Orton was a part of the trade, and the part of the trade that made the trade. See? They're inextricably linked.

"Well, Peyton Manning and Drew Brees would have been better! And Tom Brady!" No ****.

So tell us about these 12 quarterbacks who would have come with two firsts and a third (or even one first and a third) who could have done a better job, won more games, and had better stats, all while learning a new system. ****, tell us about six of them.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
11-30-2009, 02:40 PM
Not one that is perceptible to you...obviously. But youve already been told.

/yawn

You're a waste of bandwidth.

DBroncos4life
11-30-2009, 02:40 PM
All those guys on your list are better than Cutler too, so.....

Well I think we would have more yards and points with Cutler then Orton. Wins on the other hand I can't say. I do know that Cutler would have more of a connection with our team then he does with the Bears.

lex
11-30-2009, 02:41 PM
/yawn

You're a waste of bandwidth.

Thats hilarious. You should have been thrown over the cliff during infancy. Youre not a smart man.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
11-30-2009, 02:44 PM
Thats hilarious. You should have been thrown over the cliff during infancy. Youre not a smart man.

Yet another insult, still no point.

You're obviously a MENSA member.

Northman
11-30-2009, 02:44 PM
Cutler hasnt progressed at all as a QB. Still has issues with his mechanics and doesnt take care of the ball to boot which just adds to the other problems on that team. But, everyone said the QB was the problem there in Chi-town.......

lex
11-30-2009, 02:49 PM
Yet another insult, still no point.

You're obviously a MENSA member.

Speaking of point. Im still waiting for you to say something thats not inane. You keep repeating that the MO changed because they brought in Cutler. OK, so...?

Popps
11-30-2009, 02:54 PM
Urlacher's comments just became clear for me....


Yahoo! Sports reports: Brian Urlacher:
"Look, I love Jay, and I understand he's a great player who can take us a long way, and I still have faith in him,"

"Imma letcha finish...."

http://i.imgur.com/55g4h.png

Brian Urlacher: "But I hate the way our identity has changed. Kyle Orton might not be the flashiest quarterback, but the guy is a winner, and that formula worked for us. I hate to say it, but that's the truth."



"But Kyle Orton was the greatest Bears quarterback of ALL-TIME!"

Popps
11-30-2009, 02:55 PM
Cutler hasnt progressed at all as a QB. Still has issues with his mechanics and doesnt take care of the ball to boot which just adds to the other problems on that team. But, everyone said the QB was the problem there in Chi-town.......

You mean, wobbling around in your drop-back and flinging the ball off of your back foot isn't good mechanics?

TheElusiveKyleOrton
11-30-2009, 02:58 PM
Speaking of point. Im still waiting for you to say something thats not inane. You keep repeating that the MO changed because they brought in Cutler. OK, so...?

You said the MO changed because their defense faltered. I showed you where that wasn't the case.

I know how confusing it must be for you to be wrong -- again -- so I'll go ahead and repost what I wrote.

"Urlacher is right. Once they got Cutler, they asked him to start throwing the ball all over the yard, and neglected the running game. It started game one, when he threw the ball 36 times (including four picks) in the loss at Green Bay.

The most attempts per game that Orton ever averaged [in Chicago] was 31.

They changed the offense for the "Franchise"."

Do you still argue that they changed their offensive ideals because the defense faltered? In the first game of the year, with Urlacher playing and the whole team healthy, Cutler threw the ball 36 times.

The defense didn't falter in San Francisco; they only gave up 10 points. yet Cutler put the ball in the air 52 times. Was that because the defense was letting them down?

Northman
11-30-2009, 02:58 PM
You mean, wobbling around in your drop-back and flinging the ball off of your back foot isn't good mechanics?


For starters. Ha!

Bronco Warrior
11-30-2009, 03:00 PM
It's easy to dog Cutler but the Chiocago has been wrecked with injuries (Sound familiar) and hasn't played up to past years. Also the line can't block for shiet and you need that to establish the run. Throw in the fact that Olsen is the only viable top notched receiver he has and there is plenty of blame to go around!

PS Saying Urlacher isn't a difference maker on that Defense is like thinking another guy named Brian wasn't the center and heart of another NFC team ;)

Taco John
11-30-2009, 03:01 PM
You said the MO changed because their defense faltered. I showed you where that wasn't the case.

I know how confusing it must be for you to be wrong -- again -- so I'll go ahead and repost what I wrote.

"Urlacher is right. Once they got Cutler, they asked him to start throwing the ball all over the yard, and neglected the running game. It started game one, when he threw the ball 36 times (including four picks) in the loss at Green Bay.

The most attempts per game that Orton ever averaged [in Chicago] was 31.

They changed the offense for the "Franchise"."

Do you still argue that they changed their offensive ideals because the defense faltered? In the first game of the year, with Urlacher playing and the whole team healthy, Cutler threw the ball 36 times.

The defense didn't falter in San Francisco; they only gave up 10 points. yet Cutler put the ball in the air 52 times. Was that because the defense was letting them down?


This goes directly to the point that I was making earlier in this thread (http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showpost.php?p=2659010&postcount=92). I think you're making a great observation here.`

Popps
11-30-2009, 03:06 PM
It's easy to dog Cutler but the Chiocago has been wrecked with injuries (Sound familiar) ;)

It does actually sound familiar.

It reminds me of the Phillip Rivers story. You know the one where Rivers overcomes a team full of injuries and a lack of talent to take his team to the playoffs two seasons in a row.

Then again, Rivers is a franchise QB. A douche-bag, but a franchise QB.



Actually, it's easy to "dog" on Cutler because he's garbage. He's flat out awful. That's why it's easy.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
11-30-2009, 03:06 PM
This goes directly to the point that I was making earlier in this thread (http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showpost.php?p=2659010&postcount=92). I think you're making a great observation here.`

I don't know, TJ. I mean, lex says I should have been thrown off a cliff at birth because I disagreed with his "the defense faltered! that's where the problem starts!" idea.

And since lex will tell you he's always right...

Northman
11-30-2009, 03:08 PM
It's easy to dog Cutler but the Chiocago has been wrecked with injuries (Sound familiar) and hasn't played up to past years. Also the line can't block for shiet and you need that to establish the run. Throw in the fact that Olsen is the only viable top notched receiver he has and there is plenty of blame to go around!

PS Saying Urlacher isn't a difference maker on that Defense is like thinking another guy named Brian wasn't the center and heart of another NFC team ;)


20 Ints, 7 Fumbles. Nuff said.

Taco John
11-30-2009, 03:09 PM
I don't know, TJ. I mean, lex says I should have been thrown off a cliff at birth because I disagreed with his "the defense faltered! that's where the problem starts!" idea.

And since lex will tell you he's always right...


Yeah, that was a pretty stupid thing for someone to say. I don't understand why some people can't manage to disagree while at least attempting to maintain their dignity. I think testosterone probably has something to do with it.

Northman
11-30-2009, 03:11 PM
It does actually sound familiar.

It reminds me of the Phillip Rivers story. You know the one where Rivers overcomes a team full of injuries and a lack of talent to take his team to the playoffs two seasons in a row.

Then again, Rivers is a franchise QB. A douche-bag, but a franchise QB.



Actually, it's easy to "dog" on Cutler because he's garbage. He's flat out awful. That's why it's easy.


Yep. Its not like Chicago has the 29th ranked defense to blame anymore. Granted, their running game is last but that has more to do with play calling. But i guarantee you take a guy like Peyton Manning and throw him on that team and they are not 4-7 right now. All the media and fans blamed Orton the last few years and said he was the weak link. So what do they do? They trade for an *cougheliteQbcough* and all of a sudden its the rest of the team's fault again. Gimme a break. Cutler is a system QB just like Orton is only he has a stronger arm. The major difference though is one takes better care of the ball than the other. Ill take wins anyday over stats.

Popps
11-30-2009, 03:12 PM
20 Ints, 7 Fumbles. Nuff said.

JEZUZ! I forgot he choked up the ball 7 times outside of his air-charity campaign.

That's 27 turnovers, which tells you that by the end of the season, he could easily account for 40 turnovers, by himself.

That's unreal.

Northman
11-30-2009, 03:13 PM
JEZUZ! I forgot he choked up the ball 7 times outside of his air-charity campaign.

That's 27 turnovers, which tells you that by the end of the season, he could easily account for 40 turnovers, by himself.

That's unreal.


Jay "Daunte Culpepper" Cutler to the rescue.

Popps
11-30-2009, 03:15 PM
Yep. Its not like Chicago has the 29th ranked defense to blame anymore. Granted, their running game is last but that has more to do with play calling. But i guarantee you take a guy like Peyton Manning and throw him on that team and they are not 4-7 right now. All the media and fans blamed Orton the last few years and said he was the weak link. So what do they do? They trade for an *cougheliteQbcough* and all of a sudden its the rest of the team's fault again. Gimme a break. Cutler is a system QB just like Orton is only he has a stronger arm. The major difference though is one takes better care of the ball than the other. Ill take wins anyday over stats.

I only have one good friend who's a Bears fan. Good guy, so I don't give him much ****. Plus, I feel sorry for Bears fans to an extent, even though Cutler is a schmuck.

But, this guy asked me what he was getting with Cutler when the trade went down. I told him it would be love/hate, at best and that he was inconsistent.

He left me a voicemail after the game last week that said... "you told me Jay was inconsistent, which implies that he gets the job done sometimes."


Hilarious!

Northman
11-30-2009, 03:17 PM
I only have one good friend who's a Bears fan. Good guy, so I don't give him much ****. Plus, I feel sorry for Bears fans to an extent, even though Cutler is a schmuck.

But, this guy asked me what he was getting with Cutler when the trade went down. I told him it would be love/hate, at best and that he was inconsistent.

He left me a voicemail after the game last week that said... "you told me Jay was inconsistent, which implies that he gets the job done sometimes."


Hilarious!

:spit:

Ouch

Kaylore
11-30-2009, 03:18 PM
Hmmmm, this is familiar. A defensive teammate, a team leader for that matter, that isn't fond of the new QB and what he's done to the identity of his team. I also don't think it's any coincidence that Cutler has soured up that whole locker room. People and teammates don't like Jay Cutler. Aside from being generally unlikable and a selfish football player, he has an uncanny ability to destroy team morale and divide a locker room. Good luck with that, Chi-town.

Northman
11-30-2009, 03:23 PM
I also don't think it's any coincidence that Cutler has soured up that whole locker room. People and teammates don't like Jay Cutler. Aside from being generally unlikable and a selfish football player, he has an uncanny ability to destroy team morale and divide a locker room. Good luck with that, Chi-town.

Exactly. Watch his demeanor on the sideline and his lack of accountability after games.

Bronco Warrior
11-30-2009, 03:23 PM
I actually think it's because Cutler is Racist and doesn't want to make his new BLACK coach look good and he can get Shanny or Cowher to be the new coach!! Cutler being the POS that he is afterall!

TheElusiveKyleOrton
11-30-2009, 03:32 PM
Yeah, that was a pretty stupid thing for someone to say. I don't understand why some people can't manage to disagree while at least attempting to maintain their dignity. I think testosterone probably has something to do with it.

Lex says what he means and means what he says, but apparently he has trouble saying what he said.

No surprise he's all but disappeared from this thread.

Northman
11-30-2009, 03:38 PM
I actually think it's because Cutler is Racist and doesn't want to make his new BLACK coach look good and he can get Shanny or Cowher to be the new coach!! Cutler being the POS that he is afterall!

I wouldnt put it past that POS.

fontaine
11-30-2009, 03:40 PM
Cutler isn't going to change because of good coaching. If that was going to happen then he would have already done it under Shanahan, and not force the kind of throws he was making here in Denver.

It's the same reason why Manning is an elite QB. Every time the offense doesn't convert a 3rd down, or Manning throws an int, he's on the sidelines talking to the coaches in the box, studying images of Defensive formations.

It's why he knows more about Offense than most offensive coordinators. That's what makes Manning great. It's the same damn thing that makes Cutler a complete idiot.

One of the first posts I ever made about Cutler when he was drafted pointed out that yeah he's a gunslinger but more than anything else he needs to learn how to manage an offense and actually play in a disciplined structure rather than throw first and think later.

Only now he doesn't have a Marshall/Stokely/Royal combination plus an awesome line to hide his mistakes.

lex
11-30-2009, 03:45 PM
You said the MO changed because their defense faltered. I showed you where that wasn't the case.

I know how confusing it must be for you to be wrong -- again -- so I'll go ahead and repost what I wrote.

"Urlacher is right. Once they got Cutler, they asked him to start throwing the ball all over the yard, and neglected the running game. It started game one, when he threw the ball 36 times (including four picks) in the loss at Green Bay.

The most attempts per game that Orton ever averaged [in Chicago] was 31.

They changed the offense for the "Franchise"."

Do you still argue that they changed their offensive ideals because the defense faltered? In the first game of the year, with Urlacher playing and the whole team healthy, Cutler threw the ball 36 times.

The defense didn't falter in San Francisco; they only gave up 10 points. yet Cutler put the ball in the air 52 times. Was that because the defense was letting them down?

First of all, Angelo brought in Cutler. But their MO was going to be the same this year, so youre wrong on that. Smith wanted to be a run first team by his own words. Its not like Lovie Smith was saying, "Jay has a big arm so lets use it" out of the gate. In fact, you can even still make the argument that the Bears arent passing so much because Jay has a good arm and because theyre a passing team as much as its because theyre so ineffective at running. And also because the defense is no longer keeping them in games. The faltering defense is why Angelo thought it more necessary to upgrade at QB. Angelo was transitioning from the old MO because of a faltering defense even though Smith was not.

Popps
11-30-2009, 05:04 PM
First of all, Angelo brought in Cutler. But their MO was going to be the same this year, so youre wrong on that. Smith wanted to be a run first team by his own words. Its not like Lovie Smith was saying, "Jay has a big arm so lets use it" out of the gate.

But wait... shouldn't a big upgrade at QB only make a running team better? Shouldn't it take pressure off of the LOS? Shouldn't teams have to respect the pass?

If a team ran well, and upgraded the QB position... logic would follow that they would only run BETTER the following season.

Unless, of course... the upgrade wasn't really an upgrade....

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Lev Vyvanse
11-30-2009, 05:11 PM
But wait... shouldn't a big upgrade at QB only make a running team better? Shouldn't it take pressure off of the LOS? Shouldn't teams have to respect the pass?

If a team ran well, and upgraded the QB position... logic would follow that they would only run BETTER the following season.

Unless, of course... the upgrade wasn't really an upgrade....


I think Occam's razor applies nicely here.

Archer81
11-30-2009, 05:20 PM
One has balls and the other doesnt?


:Broncos:

Peoples Champ
11-30-2009, 05:25 PM
One has balls and the other doesnt?


:Broncos:



one wins and the other one doesnt

Lev Vyvanse
11-30-2009, 05:25 PM
One has balls and the other doesnt?


:Broncos:

That is simple.

Lev Vyvanse
11-30-2009, 05:26 PM
one wins and the other one doesnt

Again, very simple.

Beantown Bronco
11-30-2009, 05:32 PM
Just thought I'd throw this out there:

Orton has started 5 games against teams that will likely make the playoffs this season. His record against those teams? 4-1.

Archer81
11-30-2009, 05:35 PM
Just thought I'd throw this out there:

Orton has started 5 games against teams that will likely make the playoffs this season. His record against those teams? 4-1.


Pshaw I say...cleary the mark of a great QB is the ability to throw the football 90 yards, do GQ-lite photoshoots and flex their manhood against helpless stationary Microphones...


:Broncos:

Lev Vyvanse
11-30-2009, 05:36 PM
He kicked that microphones ass and right after you know what he did? The emo hair twirl just as a warning.

lex
11-30-2009, 05:54 PM
But wait... shouldn't a big upgrade at QB only make a running team better? Shouldn't it take pressure off of the LOS? Shouldn't teams have to respect the pass?

If a team ran well, and upgraded the QB position... logic would follow that they would only run BETTER the following season.

Unless, of course... the upgrade wasn't really an upgrade....

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/8lXdyD2Yzls&hl=en_US&fs=1&rel=0"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/8lXdyD2Yzls&hl=en_US&fs=1&rel=0" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

I dont really care about your crusade. The fact that Jay has a big arm and their running game still struggles, just goes to show how much they are struggling at running the ball. When Jay entered the lineup in 2006 the running game opened up. Prior to that people were blaming the running game for Jakes struggles, when it was really the other way around.

Lev Vyvanse
11-30-2009, 06:00 PM
I dont really care about your crusade. The fact that Jay has a big arm and their running game still struggles, just goes to show how much they are struggling at running the ball. When Jay entered the lineup in 2006 the running game opened up. Prior to that people were blaming the running game for Jakes struggles, when it was really the other way around.

Was that when we ranked 2nd in 2005 or 4th in 2004 in rushing yards?

BroncoBuff
11-30-2009, 06:13 PM
Again Cutler is playing very poor, but lets not like he is in his 12 year within his system with elite players around him like Manning.

Jay will be a very good quarterback, eventually. At which time Popps will claim he knew it all along :~ohyah!:

Dagmar
11-30-2009, 06:14 PM
Jay will be a very good quarterback, eventually.

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

Northman
11-30-2009, 06:19 PM
Jay will be a very good quarterback, eventually. At which time Popps will claim he knew it all along :~ohyah!:

I disagree. He doesnt have the same mentality as a Manning, Brady, Brees, or any other elite Qb right now. He hasnt progressed as a QB as far as his mechanics and ability to read defenses and hasnt shown the mental toughness to be a leader on the field. Your teammates dont want to see you hanging your head or sitting by yourself on the bench. Your teammates dont want you to blame everyone else when you lose a game and take no accountability yourself. Those are not signs of a great QB.

baja
11-30-2009, 06:41 PM
I disagree. He doesnt have the same mentality as a Manning, Brady, Brees, or any other elite Qb right now. He hasnt progressed as a QB as far as his mechanics and ability to read defenses and hasnt shown the mental toughness to be a leader on the field. Your teammates dont want to see you hanging your head or sitting by yourself on the bench. Your teammates dont want you to blame everyone else when you lose a game and take no accountability yourself. Those are not signs of a great QB.

So how does someone I have never heard of have 17,851 posts???

Northman
11-30-2009, 06:51 PM
So how does someone I have never heard of have 17,851 posts???

Name change?

TonyR
11-30-2009, 07:07 PM
The fact that Jay has a big arm and their running game still struggles, just goes to show how much they are struggling at running the ball.

Ladies and gentlemen, the brilliance of lex.

Bronx33
11-30-2009, 07:46 PM
http://img196.imageshack.us/img196/6945/brianurlacherboobtitpho.jpg

Los Broncos
11-30-2009, 08:38 PM
It would be so hilarious if he acutally got benched, who is the #2? I dont feel like looking it up.

Bronx33
11-30-2009, 08:40 PM
It would be so hilarious if he acutally got benched, who is the #2? I dont feel like looking it up.



hanie

BroncoBuff
11-30-2009, 08:41 PM
Caleb Hanie :wiggle:

Los Broncos
11-30-2009, 08:44 PM
hanie

Ah ****, there is a thread about this, I forgot.

What are the chances if it acutally happening? if he continues to turn it over in the red zone.

Bear nation would lose their minds, it be awesome.

baja
11-30-2009, 09:03 PM
Name change?

Why would he do that? Embarrassed by his post content?
/

lex
11-30-2009, 09:08 PM
Ladies and gentlemen, the brilliance of lex.

Yeah?...OK? Its the truth. How awful is their running game when they have a QB that makes the defense defend the whole field? It goes back to their offensive line. Its struggled in the passing game too.

Popps
11-30-2009, 09:11 PM
Yeah?...OK? Its the truth. How awful is their running game when they have a QB that makes the defense defend the whole field?.

Apparently that's not the case. Looks to me like they're stacking the box agaist Cutler and making him beat them. (Which he can't.) Looks to me like teams don't respect the pass at all. Why should they? Looks to me like the addition of Jay Cutler made the running game WORSE.

It goes back to their offensive line. Its struggled in the passing game too.

Really? After those upgrades? After Jay going through the whole season and being sacked less than any QB in his division, and yet throwing more INTS?

It's his line's fault, huh?

What was his excuse when he was 2nd in INTs last year with one of the best lines in football?

It's his line, huh?

DarkHorse30
11-30-2009, 09:13 PM
This is also year one of a COMPLETE offensive system/scheme change. Changes at QB, RB and OLine (due to injury and performance) all add to that.

You can't simply bring in a new system along with new players at key positions and expect things to be perfect from day one. People are REALLY getting spoiled by the defense here. Such an improvement is certainly the exception, not the rule.

Bingo. Plus look at the defenses Denver has played in the last month. Every one of them is in the top 14.....in fact 8 Denver opponents defenses are ranked in the top 14.

Tough schedule means tough yards for a new offense and new players. You can stathound all you want, but this isn't baseball. Look at WHO Denver is struggling against (Baltimore, Pittsburgh, SD and even Washington) and you know that it hasn't exactly been a cakewalk.

lex
11-30-2009, 09:23 PM
Apparently that's not the case. Looks to me like they're stacking the box agaist Cutler and making him beat them. (Which he can't.) Looks to me like teams don't respect the pass at all. Why should they? Looks to me like the addition of Jay Cutler made the running game WORSE.

That has nothing to do with the line not giving the QB time to throw? If you dont have time for routes to materialize and you cant get the running game going, why would you not move the defense up?



Really? After those upgrades? After Jay going through the whole season and being sacked less than any QB in his division, and yet throwing more INTS?

What upgrades? Are you talking about this year or last year. Youre Glenn Klose from Fatal Attraction with this vitriole you feel towards Cutler.

It's his line's fault, huh?

What was his excuse when he was 2nd in INTs last year with one of the best lines in football?

How many passes did Denver throw last year?

It's his line, huh?

Are you actually claiming their OLine is good?



in bold

Popps
11-30-2009, 10:11 PM
Lex, I'm simply stating the truth.

The Bears O-line was thought to be significantly upgraded at the start of the season. Through yesterday, Cutler was the least sacked QB in his division.

Several of the starers on the line are the same as when Orton was their QB.

Yet, Orton wasn't a disaster, Cutler IS a disaster.

The running game was better with Orton... worse with Cutler.

Sure seems to me like a "franchise" QB would help some of these problems out.

broncocalijohn
11-30-2009, 10:20 PM
Really, the bears being this bad is not all on Cutler. Its an overall meltdown which starts with the coaching staff putting too much focus on the passing game and not enough focus on the running game. Hey, if your oline stinks, it's gonna be exposed more in the passing game than the running game. Even bad offensive lines can run block with a decent RB and the bears have Forte.

As for the defense, it's being exposed but it's only a few pieces away from being decent.

I dont think it is all on him but it starts with Jay. They are not going to improve in the next few years (unless Jay turns it around and becomes an elite QB) because what they spent on a supposed "Franchise" QB. Hell, Knox is the best thing so far in the whole trade for Chicago. They are missing key draft picks for the next few years and need to have a keen eye in their staff to find the gems in the draft and get free agents that are actually worth a damn (who didnt see Pace as a done product of the NFL?). Once this year is over and we get our high draft pick, I will start feeling sorry for those players not named Jay Cutler. Of course some of those players have got to step it up if they even want to beat out the likes of Detroit!

DBroncos4life
11-30-2009, 10:34 PM
How many years should the Jets and the Lions give Sanchez and Stafford?

Taco John
11-30-2009, 10:38 PM
How many years should the Jets and the Lions give Sanchez and Stafford?

The better part of two, and probably three.

broncocalijohn
11-30-2009, 10:39 PM
I actually think it's because Cutler is Racist and doesn't want to make his new BLACK coach look good and he can get Shanny or Cowher to be the new coach!! Cutler being the POS that he is afterall!

i didnt see one "lol!" in his post so it must be for real. Keep 'em coming BW :thumbs:

cutthemdown
11-30-2009, 10:45 PM
Urlacher also likes Cutler's toughness and no quit attitude. But Urlacher doesn't hesitate to say Culter just throws too many interceptions and forces throws in tight coverage and triple teams.

Its not Cutler who turned the Bears into passing first and run second so much as it is Turner sending in all the plays. I'm sure Cutler would rather run the ball more as well, its just that the O Line just isn't making space for Matt Forte' to run btwn like back in 2008 when Forte ran for over 1,200 yards.

And that oline isn't getting any younger, and they have no high picks. Orlando Pace just isn't good anymore and he's a busted FA pickup that will cost them. Bears will only spend so much so don't go expecting them to break the bank in FA to fix the team.

Cutler could be stuck with this oline and WR for at least another yr after this.

cutthemdown
11-30-2009, 10:47 PM
I bet after how Cutler has acted, and all the picks he throws, that Shanny will want no part of the Bears.

IMO he will look for a team that has more to offer of the offense. No oline, no wr, and a RB who looks like he was a one yr wonder. Can you say sophomore slump?

IMO Forte looks slower, isn't hitting the holes as quick. What the hell happened? Isn't interior oline basically the same guys?

The switched up the OT with Pace but other then that what did they change?

Taco John
11-30-2009, 10:52 PM
Honestly, I think Shanahan will also look for a favorable climate. He's always been the type to advise to wait for the right situation, and if his past is any indication, the right climate seems to be part of that mix.

Circle Orange
11-30-2009, 11:01 PM
Cue Popps with the: "But he's got a rocket arm!" comment. ;D

Don't get him started! I've been trying that twelve step program with mixed success...:~ohyah!:

Jay does have a cannon, though. Can throw horseshoes right through concrete.

Hulamau
11-30-2009, 11:04 PM
Pretty tough not to agree with Brian, but I have a problem with the timing. His defense just got lit up yesterday something fierce. Call me crazy, but giving up 550+ yards of offense and a ton of points is not "keeping the team in the game" as far as I'm concerned.

The point is, when the offense stinks to high heaven and is turning the ball over at very inopportune backbreaking time, repeatedly, it is IMPOSSIBLE for any defense to continue playing at a high level.

This is a team game and the same goes for us. When our offense was shut down with the complacency and lost focus after the bye in the first half of the Ravens game and both Harris and McBean were injured significantly weakening both lines along with Hamilton running out of gas the limitations of our offense at this stage of its development led to wearing out or defense.

Same thing goes with a high powered offense. The defense also has to be at least average and know how to bend but not break too often and not be a total sieve in order to win deep into the post season in this league.

Regardless of Jays physical skills and big arm, he isn't the kind of QB that team needed now to take best advantage of an aging defensive skills. They needed Orton who would have been better in his third full year as a starter and second in a row, and could have helped them tighten up a lot of these games and likely win a few more.

Orton can make the big play when needed more times than not and he is a careful QB with the ball. He is smarter that Jay and a more inspiring locker room leader by example as well, hands down, and that too is what Urlacher was saying.

Circle Orange
11-30-2009, 11:07 PM
bears forums are turning on urlacher now.

The pain from his injury has gone to his head...this is the same guy that called Cutler "female genitilia" early on. Now he's supposedly great and can lead them somewhere?

He's leading, alright. Straight to 4-12, despite the fact it's mathmatically impossible.

Taco John
11-30-2009, 11:09 PM
The point is, when the offense stinks to high heaven and is turning the ball over at very inopportune backbreaking time, repeatedly, it is IMPOSSIBLE for any defense to continue playing at a high level.


Well hello argument against Jake Plummer circa 2006. Nice to see you around again.

In everything, turn, turn, turn...

Hulamau
11-30-2009, 11:18 PM
Well hello argument against Jake Plummer circa 2006. Nice to see you around again.

In everything, turn, turn, turn...

That was part of Plummer's problem no doubt, save for that 2005 season when Shanny reigned him in a bit more to play more like McD likes his QBs to play. Safe, smart, chain-moving passes mixed with runs .. open up the defense and then take some opportune shots down field.

And Plummer took us to the AFC championship game that year as well, playing smarter football and less gunslinger. The next year Jake felt blindsided and betrayed by Cutler being drafted and was mostly going through the motions before being pulled after game 11.

Hulamau
11-30-2009, 11:42 PM
in bold

Jay has had time to throw .. a hell of a lot more time than ORton did last year with an even worse line.

And its amazing what throwing red zone picks for breakfast every game after long drives will do to the confidence and moxie of an entire team.

lex
12-01-2009, 12:44 AM
Jay has had time to throw .. a hell of a lot more time than ORton did last year with an even worse line.

And its amazing what throwing red zone picks for breakfast every game after long drives will do to the confidence and moxie of an entire team.

Really? Thats interesting. I live in Chicago and am not going to say Orton had more time or less time to throw. But its amazing how people come out of the woodwork and suddenly present themselves as people who know all about the 2008 Bears.

First of all, addressing your point as though it has legitimacy, who is to say that the play design is the same with Orton vs Cutler? Its possible that Chicago calls more plays that take longer to develop due to Jay having a bigger arm. Secondly, who is to say that a lot of it isnt from Jay buying time with his mobility?

I wanted to see the Bears do well this year but Ill also take the higher draft pick (not too high for Bowlen though). Whatever. Some of you angry women are like a dog and a sock with your Cutler-rage.

Archer81
12-01-2009, 02:06 AM
How many years should the Jets and the Lions give Sanchez and Stafford?


3 years minimum. By the end of year three you get a good feel for how they play the game, and by that point they game should have slowed down for them.


:Broncos:

rastaman
12-01-2009, 06:39 AM
This is also year one of a COMPLETE offensive system/scheme change. Changes at QB, RB and OLine (due to injury and performance) all add to that.

You can't simply bring in a new system along with new players at key positions and expect things to be perfect from day one. People are REALLY getting spoiled by the defense here. Such an improvement is certainly the exception, not the rule.

I love how fans have conveniently lowered the bar of expectations for Orton and when Orton screws up and doesn't meet the already low bar of expectations for a starting QB that is surrounded by talent and weapons, the excuse card is played to protect Orton.

When Orton plays lousy its the O Lines fault, its Royals fault for not running sound routes, its Marshall's fault for not jumping high enough to catch Orton's wobbly noodle armed circus throws. Its Moreno's fault b/c he's not running the ball effectively enough to help out Orton.

When Orton plays lousy, the rallying cry of excuses from the Orton apologist is....give him time to get comfortable with and learn McD's Harvard intensive Offensive schemes.

These are the same fans who have the nerve to question or to insinuate who are true fans. Soley based on fans who question McDaniels actions/decisions or fans who hold Orton accountable when he has failed to move the offense or make the players better around him.

I'll put fourth with the arguement that one could say Orton's cerebal inconsistent play on offense to move the team, actually ends up "Killing or Destroying the Defense's effectiveness. The D is getting worn down due playing 40 min. per game to help offset an ineffective Offense led by Kyle that can't score enough points to keep pressure off the Defense.

The list of excuses for Orton are endless and ridiculous.

Meck77
12-01-2009, 06:51 AM
The list of excuses for Orton are endless and ridiculous.

We don't need any excuses for Orton. We're 7-4 with a shot a good chance to make the playoffs.

What's your excuse for Cutler?

TheElusiveKyleOrton
12-01-2009, 07:04 AM
Really? Thats interesting. I live in Chicago and am not going to say Orton had more time or less time to throw. But its amazing how people come out of the woodwork and suddenly present themselves as people who know all about the 2008 Bears.

First of all, addressing your point as though it has legitimacy, who is to say that the play design is the same with Orton vs Cutler? Its possible that Chicago calls more plays that take longer to develop due to Jay having a bigger arm. Secondly, who is to say that a lot of it isnt from Jay buying time with his mobility?

I wanted to see the Bears do well this year but Ill also take the higher draft pick (not too high for Bowlen though). Whatever. Some of you angry women are like a dog and a sock with your Cutler-rage.

If it's not working, you change it up. They haven't.

If Jay was a leader, he would go to his coaches and ask them to change it up. He isn't.

I love how when we see Cutler failing, it's because we're "angry women" with "Cutler-rage." I love seeing him fail; it has nothing to do with rage.

It's joy.

I'm sorry you can't enjoy it with us, lex. He's failing, and instead of enjoying it, you'd rather make excuses for him. And that's your business. But trying to maintain the ridiculous argument that it's his line, or his receivers, or his coaching, or whatEVER, when he's supposed to be the leader on that football team, is completely absurd.

Leaders LEAD. Cutler doesn't.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
12-01-2009, 07:05 AM
I love how fans have conveniently lowered the bar of expectations for Orton and when Orton screws up and doesn't meet the already low bar of expectations for a starting QB that is surrounded by talent and weapons, the excuse card is played to protect Orton.

When Orton plays lousy its the O Lines fault, its Royals fault for not running sound routes, its Marshall's fault for not jumping high enough to catch Orton's wobbly noodle armed circus throws. Its Moreno's fault b/c he's not running the ball effectively enough to help out Orton.

When Orton plays lousy, the rallying cry of excuses from the Orton apologist is....give him time to get comfortable with and learn McD's Harvard intensive Offensive schemes.

These are the same fans who have the nerve to question or to insinuate who are true fans. Soley based on fans who question McDaniels actions/decisions or fans who hold Orton accountable when he has failed to move the offense or make the players better around him.

I'll put fourth with the arguement that one could say Orton's cerebal inconsistent play on offense to move the team, actually ends up "Killing or Destroying the Defense's effectiveness. The D is getting worn down due playing 40 min. per game to help offset an ineffective Offense led by Kyle that can't score enough points to keep pressure off the Defense.

The list of excuses for Orton are endless and ridiculous.

Further proof that you simply don't know what you're talking about. You should probably not post for a while. Your hatred for Orton is completely transparent.

rastaman
12-01-2009, 07:07 AM
We don't need any excuses for Orton. We're 7-4 with a shot a good chance to make the playoffs.

What's your excuse for Cutler?

So you turn a blinds eye toward Orton's inconsistent performance and his inability to make the players around him better just b/c we are 7-4? I'd say we are 7-4 not b/c of Orton but despite of Orton.

You maybe sold on Orton and believe Denver can go far into the playoff with him but I beg to differ. And many fans have their doubts about Ortons ability to lead this team into the post season....they just aren't making their feelings known for fear of being attacked and labled as not being a true Bronco fan.

As far as excuses for Cutler, interceptions aside, I make the same excuses or reasonings for Cutler's performance as fans have given for Orton's performance. Fair Enough!

TheElusiveKyleOrton
12-01-2009, 07:09 AM
So you turn a blinds eye toward Orton's inconsistent performance and his inability to make the players around him better just b/c we are 7-4? I'd say we are 7-4 not b/c of Orton but despite of Orton.

You maybe sold on Orton and believe Denver can go far into the playoff with him but I beg to differ. And many fans have their doubts about Ortons ability to lead this team into the post season....they just aren't making their feelings known for fear of being attacked and labled as not being a true Bronco fan.

As far as excuses for Cutler, interceptions aside, I make the same excuses or reasonings for Cutler's performance as fans have given for Orton's performance. Fair Enough!

Or maybe they're afraid of being exposed as morons, as you've been over and over and over again.

You hate Orton. We know. But we're 7-4 with him, while the "much improved, Super Bowl-bound Bears" are 4-7.

Sorry to break it to you: Your boyfriend sucks.

rastaman
12-01-2009, 07:10 AM
Further proof that you simply don't know what you're talking about. You should probably not post for a while. Your hatred for Orton is completely transparent.

And the same rule should for some posters who vehemently hate Culter as well. Besides I have no hatred for Orton....I haven't wished him ill-will or failure like the hateful Cutler haters have behaved. I'm merely pointing out how Orton's limited ability as a QB and his inability to make players better, and his inability to move the offense consistenly is the truth.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
12-01-2009, 07:12 AM
And the same rule should for some posters who vehemently hate Culter as well. Besides I have no hatred for Orton....I haven't wished him ill-will or failure like the hateful Cutler haters have behaved. I'm merely pointing out how Orton's limited ability as a QB and his inability to make players better, and his inability to move the offense consistenly is the truth.

Again: I don't hate Cutler. I love to watch him fail. There's a difference.

And at least I can admit it.

rastaman
12-01-2009, 07:15 AM
Or maybe they're afraid of being exposed as morons, as you've been over and over and over again.

You hate Orton. We know. But we're 7-4 with him, while the "much improved, Super Bowl-bound Bears" are 4-7.

Sorry to break it to you: Your boyfriend sucks.

Again, I don't Orton, I just hate the excuses made for Orton by the fans. We know you and your ilk hate Cutler and are using the cover of being Bronco fans as your justification for your clinically challenged immature hatred. One could also counter and say we could be 4-7 as well and are 7-4 not b/c of Orton but b/c of our Defense and WR's play during the first 6 games. Not necessarily b/c of Orton.

Rabb
12-01-2009, 07:17 AM
it's funny how rasta-douche says that Orton doesn't make players better when his boy ass lover in Chi-town clearly doesn't either

rastaman
12-01-2009, 07:17 AM
Again: I don't hate Cutler. I love to watch him fail. There's a difference.

And at least I can admit it.

I have not wished that Orton fails. I have just stated Orton's limits, weakenesses and inconsistentcies and some how fans have turned my comments into hating Orton or wishing for his failure! Go Figure.

rastaman
12-01-2009, 07:24 AM
it's funny how rasta-douche says that Orton doesn't make players better when his boy ass lover in Chi-town clearly doesn't either

Whats funny and amazing is how knuckle-dragging fans like you can't admit to the limiting abilites of Orton in the areas of making his WR's better and more effective. For gods sake Orton has yet to prove he can hit any of his receivers in stride, let alone throw the intermediate passes or deep throws with any consistency. Yet when the argument is brought up, in your limited brain matter, you think its showing hatred towards Orton.

Sorry Chuckle Nuts.....but you're wrong and couldn't be further from the truth.

Rabb
12-01-2009, 07:24 AM
This message is hidden because rastaman is on your ignore list (http://www.orangemane.com/BB/profile.php?do=ignorelist).

ahhhhh

rastaman
12-01-2009, 07:30 AM
ahhhhh

You will be on ignore soon enough!!! Have a nice day Nim Rod.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
12-01-2009, 07:30 AM
I have not wished that Orton fails. I have just stated Orton's limits, weakenesses and inconsistentcies and some how fans have turned my comments into hating Orton or wishing for his failure! Go Figure.

Funny. You disappeared when we were 6-0, then reappeared when we'd lost two straight. To say "I told you so."

You'd rather be right than happy. Sick.

Meck77
12-01-2009, 07:30 AM
So you turn a blinds eye toward Orton's inconsistent performance and his inability to make the players around him better just b/c we are 7-4? I'd say we are 7-4 not b/c of Orton but despite of Orton.

You maybe sold on Orton and believe Denver can go far into the playoff with him but I beg to differ. And many fans have their doubts about Ortons ability to lead this team into the post season....they just aren't making their feelings known for fear of being attacked and labled as not being a true Bronco fan.

As far as excuses for Cutler, interceptions aside, I make the same excuses or reasonings for Cutler's performance as fans have given for Orton's performance. Fair Enough!

Let me make this easier for you to understand.

We are WINNING with Orton. We have a chance to make the playoffs with Orton. We never made the playoffs with Cutler.

Cutler is not winning in Chicago. Cutler is not going to the playoffs for the 4th straight time in his career.

Rasta I don't view the Broncos through fantasy football eyes like many of you. I watch the game and evaluate all three phases of the game equally.

WE are a better team with Kyle Orton as our QB and we are a much better overall team then last year.

Oh and I appreciate you are already predicting our failure in the playoffs. Should we dig up your posts from before the season even began?Ha!

rastaman
12-01-2009, 07:35 AM
Funny. You disappeared when we were 6-0, then reappeared when we'd lost two straight. To say "I told you so."

You'd rather be right than happy. Sick.

Nope I've been around the entire time. I didn't wish for the loses I based my prediction on how the team was playing thus far and at the time. Unlike you I noticed during the 6-0 run how the Def. was getting worn down due to the offense's inability to move the ball consistenly enough to allow the defense to rest every now and then. And knew sooner or later the Defense would break down in the 3rd of 4th qtrs. I never saw you make this observation! We you so drunk with jubliation of going 6-0 that you couldn't see the BIG PICTURE! Of course you were admit it.

Peoples Champ
12-01-2009, 07:41 AM
Let me make this easier for you to understand.

We are WINNING with Orton. We have a chance to make the playoffs with Orton. We never made the playoffs with Cutler.

Cutler is not winning in Chicago. Cutler is not going to the playoffs for the 4th straight time in his career.

Rasta I don't view the Broncos through fantasy football eyes like many of you. I watch the game and evaluate all three phases of the game equally.

WE are a better team with Kyle Orton as our QB and we are a much better overall team then last year.

Oh and I appreciate you are already predicting our failure in the playoffs. Should we dig up your posts from before the season even began?Ha!


Ya, Fantasy players dont care about W-L records, they care about yards and Tds

TonyR
12-01-2009, 07:45 AM
Dan (cough) Reeves.

Not certain what you're suggesting but if you're saying Reeves would have been better off without John Elway then I'm going to have to disagree. Hopefully that's not what you're suggesting.

Beantown Bronco
12-01-2009, 07:45 AM
I love how fans have conveniently lowered the bar of expectations for Orton and when Orton screws up and doesn't meet the already low bar of expectations for a starting QB that is surrounded by talent and weapons, the excuse card is played to protect Orton.


I love how you are conveniently ignoring my post about how the rankings of the defenses we've faced so far this season (1, 2, 4, 7, 9, 10 and 14 in scoring - not yards), along with the Chris Simms fiasco, have weighed heavily in the Broncos lack of offensive explosion, much moreso than simply the guy we have behind center. I don't think we could expect a consistently top scoring unit with anyone else under center right now, aside from maybe the 2 or 3 best in the game right now. The schedule is just brutal (the #3 scoring defense is up in less than 2 weeks).

Yes, even Cutler. The same QB who couldn't score with this offense last year unless he was literally facing a defense ranked in the high 20s or worse.

Broncos_OTM
12-01-2009, 07:47 AM
Cutler deserves to be bashed if not soley because us Denver fans are only a 6.

I usually dont wish ill will on ex denver players but him. yes.

Dude i almost felt sorry for the poor fella. he had a ****ing child tantrum on a ****ing mic. a ****ing mic folks. does that go to show you how immature he is. Dude is the defintion of a cancer. i can understand you are frustrated but dont take it out on a mic. put that fire into your game.

Dude is paid millions of dollars. Man up.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
12-01-2009, 07:50 AM
Nope I've been around the entire time. I didn't wish for the loses I based my prediction on how the team was playing thus far and at the time. Unlike you I noticed during the 6-0 run how the Def. was getting worn down due to the offense's inability to move the ball consistenly enough to allow the defense to rest every now and then. And knew sooner or later the Defense would break down in the 3rd of 4th qtrs. I never saw you make this observation! We you so drunk with jubliation of going 6-0 that you couldn't see the BIG PICTURE! Of course you were admit it.

The defense rested a TON during the 6-0 start, thanks to time-consuming drives led by -- you guessed it! -- Kyle Orton.

It didn't start being a problem until the Baltimore game. So unless you've got a crystal ball, you didn't call ****.

Beantown Bronco
12-01-2009, 07:53 AM
Unlike you I noticed during the 6-0 run how the Def. was getting worn down due to the offense's inability to move the ball consistenly enough to allow the defense to rest every now and then.

Please direct us to where you supposedly noticed this during the 6-0 run. During that run, the Broncos were either equal in time of possession to the opponent or had a HUGE time of possession advantage in all but one game and they still managed to shut that team out in the 2nd half (Cowboys). They shut out the Pats in the 2nd half. They only gave up 3 2nd half points to the Chargers.

Please tell us. Where? Where did you observe this fictional wearing down of the defense?

TheElusiveKyleOrton
12-01-2009, 07:56 AM
Please direct us to where you supposedly noticed this during the 6-0 run. During that run, the Broncos were either equal in time of possession to the opponent or had a HUGE time of possession advantage in all but one game and they still managed to shut that team out in the 2nd half (Cowboys). They shut out the Pats in the 2nd half. They only gave up 3 2nd half points to the Chargers.

Please tell us. Where? Where did you observe this fictional wearing down of the defense?

In the bottom of his bong. Duh.

rastaman
12-01-2009, 08:09 AM
Let me make this easier for you to understand.

We are WINNING with Orton. We have a chance to make the playoffs with Orton. We never made the playoffs with Cutler.

We will make the playoffs due to a total team effort on offense and defense more so than with Orton. Orton has already proven he's an incubator QB and needs a robust infrastructure around him inorder to be successful.

Cutler is not winning in Chicago. Cutler is not going to the playoffs for the 4th straight time in his career.

Couldn't agree with you more when it comes to interceptions! In fact since Cutler is at fault for all this, I'm surprised he isn't winning all by himself....aren't you? Like you, I'm still waiting for Cutler to help out his O line with blocking better and opening up holes for Matt Forte'.

Why shouldn't Cutler be able to block for himself and complete passes at the same time! I'm still waiting for Cutler to step up and help out more on Defense as well. I ask that same question...why hasn't Cutler filled in for Urlacer when the D's needs that extra push.

Rasta I don't view the Broncos through fantasy football eyes like many of you. I watch the game and evaluate all three phases of the game equally.

Sure you do. Funny how thru your CEO type evaluation you have failed miserably to admit the limiting factors Orton brings to the table. And how the Defense has to play so much harder and stay on the field to make up for Ortons inability to move the offense which results in 3 downs and punt. And how Orton makes Royal and Marshall work harder than necessary b/c of Orton's inability to hit them in stride or getting them the ball on time.

WE are a better team with Kyle Orton as our QB and we are a much better overall team then last year.

We are a better team despite of Kyle Orton. We are better team Defensively, but we have regressed offensively. Enough Said.

Oh and I appreciate you are already predicting our failure in the playoffs. Should we dig up your posts from before the season even began?Ha!

Again, I'm making a prediction for the playoffs based on our performance against several playoff teams after week 6 has lead me to this opinion. Now can Orton prove me wrong....sure he can. But until he does, I will stand by my prediction/belief.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
12-01-2009, 08:13 AM
Again, I'm making a prediction for the playoffs based on our performance against several playoff teams after week 6 has lead me to this opinion. Now can Orton prove me wrong....sure he can. But until he does, I will stand by my prediction/belief.

So. Orton needs robust infrastructure around him. Like blocking and defense.

But Cutler does too.

So clearly, Cutler is a better quarterback.

You have de-railed.

Beantown Bronco
12-01-2009, 08:17 AM
Again, I'm making a prediction for the playoffs based on our performance against several playoff teams after week 6 has lead me to this opinion. Now can Orton prove me wrong....sure he can. But until he does, I will stand by my prediction/belief.

Once again, what are you talking about? If the season were to end today, his record would be 4-0 as a starter against teams in the playoffs.

rastaman
12-01-2009, 08:21 AM
[QUOTE=ThatOneDenverMooseGuy;2659881]So. Orton needs robust infrastructure around him. Like blocking and defense.

But Cutler does too.

So clearly, Cutler is a better quarterback.QUOTE]

As in Chicago last year, currently Orton has a robust infrastructure right now in terms of O Line and Defense.

Not making excuses for Cutler's interceptions and forcing throws, however, I do believe this years O Line and Defense is not as robust and effective as 2008.

jhns
12-01-2009, 08:28 AM
Sports fans are funny. You guys get so emotional over players that you feel wronged you. The arguments and justifications are rediculous.

The one thing I don't get is why people say Orton is good only because you think Cutler is bad. Even with the blind hate, I will never understand that. We haven't come close to the top half of the league in scoring this season. The offense, especially in early games, has been going 3 and out constantly. The o-line suddenly got worse as did all of our recievers. I do not understand the blind love fpor Orton. Just because you don't think Cutler was the answer, doesn't mean the next option has to be the answer....

rastaman
12-01-2009, 08:31 AM
Once again, what are you talking about? If the season were to end today, his record would be 4-0 as a starter against teams in the playoffs.

Sure we beat Cincy, Dallas, SD and NE back in Sep/Oct but those teams are playing a lot better in December. And like the Ravens, Steelers, and SD, these teams know how to exploite Orton's inability to move the offense, and exploite a worn down tired Denver Defense in the 2nd half b/c Orton has QB'd the offense to 3 downs and punt.

Now I could be proven wrong but this is the scenario I see taking place down the stretch and into the playoffs...should we make the playoffs.

orangeatheist
12-01-2009, 08:31 AM
Cutler deserves to be bashed if not soley because us Denver fans are only a 6..

This.

And, not least of all, because he QUIT on the Broncos! This is OUR team. This is a BRONCOS board, not a board discussing NFL quarterbacks generally. We are FANS of the Denver Broncos and Culter actively QUIT the team and wanted to be traded. He basically flipped off OUR team, feeling it wasn't "good enough" for him. So, of course we're going to find joy in his failure. That is, if you are a BRONCOS fan FIRST and a player fan SECOND.

Meck77
12-01-2009, 08:36 AM
Sports fans are funny. You guys get so emotional over players that you feel wronged you. The arguments and justifications are rediculous.

The one thing I don't get is why people say Orton is good only because you think Cutler is bad. Even with the blind hate, I will never understand that. We haven't come close to the top half of the league in scoring this season. The offense, especially in early games, has been going 3 and out constantly. The o-line suddenly got worse as did all of our recievers. I do not understand the blind love fpor Orton. Just because you don't think Cutler was the answer, doesn't mean the next option has to be the answer....

It's a blind love for the Broncos. Our only way to really judge our team is with our WINNING record. Forget all the fantasy numbers, the QB ratings, the number of INTS. The Broncos are winning despite the fact that the majority of his board said we couldn't even win 6 games the entire year.

As far as any hate towards Cutler goes I believe that is justified as well. The more he struggles the better our pick. Rooting against Cutler is rooting for the Broncos.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
12-01-2009, 08:54 AM
Sports fans are funny. You guys get so emotional over players that you feel wronged you. The arguments and justifications are rediculous.

The one thing I don't get is why people say Orton is good only because you think Cutler is bad. Even with the blind hate, I will never understand that. We haven't come close to the top half of the league in scoring this season. The offense, especially in early games, has been going 3 and out constantly. The o-line suddenly got worse as did all of our recievers. I do not understand the blind love fpor Orton. Just because you don't think Cutler was the answer, doesn't mean the next option has to be the answer....

For what it's worth, I have yet to see anyone here say that Orton is the answer. I think a lot of us are watching Cutler implode and feel relieved that he's no longer our problem, and that we got someone who has managed to play pretty damn well in exchange for that egomaniac.

jhns
12-01-2009, 09:00 AM
It's a blind love for the Broncos. Our only way to really judge our team is with our WINNING record. Forget all the fantasy numbers, the QB ratings, the number of INTS. The Broncos are winning despite the fact that the majority of his board said we couldn't even win 6 games the entire year.

As far as any hate towards Cutler goes I believe that is justified as well. The more he struggles the better our pick. Rooting against Cutler is rooting for the Broncos.

The large majority of our wins have come from the defense. We are winning and the team is very good. That doesn't mean there is nothing to improve. The offense has not pulled its weight. Either the scheme, play calling, or Orton are not getting it done. Those are the only three things that have changed and can make our o-line/recievers look like they have dropped off from last year. Just because people didn't think we would do well doesn't mean we are perfect for outdoing expectations. People thought we wouldn't do well because they knew we were going to have this offensive dropoff and no one saw the defense becoming what it is. So again, just because Cutler isn't the answer, doesn't make Orton the answer.

I get the hate for Cutler. I just said it makes for dumb and funny observations, rationalizations, and conversations around here. Also, while Cutler and the Bears are relevant to the Broncos this season, they aren't more relevant than the Bronco players and games. Cutler is talked about far more than any player on this team(other than maybe Hillis) and probably talked about more than everyone on this team. I came here yesterday and the entire front page was about Cutler, the Bears, and Hillis. I left without reading any of it other than a single thread about the pick we get. While I talked about these things a ton in the offseason, I do not understand the extreme of the obsession when Bronco football is actually being played.

chex
12-01-2009, 09:07 AM
Sports fans are funny. You guys get so emotional over players that you feel wronged you. The arguments and justifications are rediculous.

The one thing I don't get is why people say Orton is good only because you think Cutler is bad. Even with the blind hate, I will never understand that. We haven't come close to the top half of the league in scoring this season. The offense, especially in early games, has been going 3 and out constantly. The o-line suddenly got worse as did all of our recievers. I do not understand the blind love fpor Orton. Just because you don't think Cutler was the answer, doesn't mean the next option has to be the answer....

We dont have the best young QB in the history of the universe playing for us.

Chicago does.

Denver still has a better record.

The best young QB in the history of the universe has a career record of 21-27.

Last year, the Bears, without having the best young QB in the history of the universe, scored more points than the team that did.

This year, the Bears, with the best young QB in the history of the universe, are scoring at a 4 points per game dip compared to last year.

Last year, the Bears, without having the best young QB in the history of the universe, won more games than the team that did.

This year, the Bears, with the best young QB in the history of the universe, will need to win all of their remaining games just to equal last years record.

jhns
12-01-2009, 09:11 AM
We dont have the best young QB in the history of the universe playing for us.

Chicago does.

Denver still has a better record.

The best young QB in the history of the universe has a career record of 21-27.

Last year, the Bears, without having the best young QB in the history of the universe, scored more points than the team that did.

This year, the Bears, with the best young QB in the history of the universe, are scoring at a 4 points per game dip compared to last year.

Last year, the Bears, without having the best young QB in the history of the universe, won more games than the team that did.

This year, the Bears, with the best young QB in the history of the universe, will need to win all of their remaining games just to equal last years record.

What exactly does this have to do with anything I said? You do know our scoring totals are far worse than last year, right? You know our yards and all that are also way down to, right? Anyways, what is it that you think I am arguing? Just because their scoring total is down, that means Orton is the answer here? I'm not sure I get it.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
12-01-2009, 09:13 AM
What exactly does this have to do with anything I said? You do know our scoring totals are far worse than last year, right? You know our yards and all that are also way down to, right? Anyways, what is it that you think I am arguing? Just because their scoring total is down, that means Orton is the answer here? I'm not sure I get it.

Again, the only person claiming that Orton is 'the answer' is you.

Beantown Bronco
12-01-2009, 09:19 AM
The offense has not pulled its weight. Either the scheme, play calling, or Orton are not getting it done. Those are the only three things that have changed and can make our o-line/recievers look like they have dropped off from last year.

You are forgetting a little something called "the opponents."

The Broncos to this point have faced the #1, 2, 4, 7, 9, 10 and 14th ranked defenses in the league in scoring.

Now go back and look at the defensive rankings last season of their opponents. Only 3 were ranked in the top 10 in the league and here's how the Broncos did:

Pats - 8th in pts given up, Broncos scored a whole 7 pts
Miami - 9th in league in pts given up, Broncos scored 17
TB - 10th in league in pts given up, Broncos scored 16

So, you can clearly see that last year the Broncos put up what little scoring they did against the scrubs of the league (5 games against the 8 worst defenses in the league). This year, they are facing the best defenses in the entire league and they're scoring on par with what last year's did against decent, but not outstanding units.

NOW do the 2009 offensive numbers REALLY look worse than last year?

chex
12-01-2009, 09:23 AM
What exactly does this have to do with anything I said? You do know our scoring totals are far worse than last year, right? You know our yards and all that are also way down to, right? Anyways, what is it that you think I am arguing? Just because their scoring total is down, that means Orton is the answer here? I'm not sure I get it.

Who said Orton was the answer? I never did.

However, you and all the others think that Jay was.

I can only imagine how much you wish that the teams' fortunes this year were reversed.

jhns
12-01-2009, 09:25 AM
Again, the only person claiming that Orton is 'the answer' is you.

I am just trying to understand what Chex is talking about. That post had nothing to do with what I said. I can only assume that is some response as to why Orton is the answer since that is what my post was about.

jhns
12-01-2009, 09:31 AM
This.

And, not least of all, because he QUIT on the Broncos! This is OUR team. This is a BRONCOS board, not a board discussing NFL quarterbacks generally. We are FANS of the Denver Broncos and Culter actively QUIT the team and wanted to be traded. He basically flipped off OUR team, feeling it wasn't "good enough" for him. So, of course we're going to find joy in his failure. That is, if you are a BRONCOS fan FIRST and a player fan SECOND.

See, this is the funny stuff I am talking about. Irrational, a few made up points, and what do you know, you are talking to a butthurt sports fan.

So, I bet you hate rooting for Marshall. It must hurt to know we wouldn't be close to this record without someone that quit on the team and demanded a trade.

Tombstone RJ
12-01-2009, 09:32 AM
Orton can be great in McD's system. People have to realize that he's in his first year in McD's Spread Offense and everyone knew that this system takes time to master, especially for the QB. One reason McD considered bringing Cassel in was because Cassel knew the system. Orton is still learning the system and this time next year, he's gonna be that much better.

I seriously doubt McD is gonna draft a QB on the first day. Orton may not be respected by a lot of posters here but I guarantee you he's gained McD's respect and the respect of the players.

jhns
12-01-2009, 09:40 AM
You are forgetting a little something called "the opponents."

The Broncos to this point have faced the #1, 2, 4, 7, 9, 10 and 14th ranked defenses in the league in scoring.

Now go back and look at the defensive rankings last season of their opponents. Only 3 were ranked in the top 10 in the league and here's how the Broncos did:

Pats - 8th in pts given up, Broncos scored a whole 7 pts
Miami - 9th in league in pts given up, Broncos scored 17
TB - 10th in league in pts given up, Broncos scored 16

So, you can clearly see that last year the Broncos put up what little scoring they did against the scrubs of the league (5 games against the 8 worst defenses in the league). This year, they are facing the best defenses in the entire league and they're scoring on par with what last year's did against decent, but not outstanding units.

NOW do the 2009 offensive numbers REALLY look worse than last year?

Maybe they are ranked that high because they are playing teams like us, that don't score....

As for what you just showed: Cutler hurt his throwing hand on the first play of the NE game. He executed exactly what Shanahan said in Tampa, and 16/17 points against the good defenses is not bad when you look at the fact our entire offense was rookie-third year guys that set a lot of Bronco records. No, this years offense isn't as good and the numbers prove it. Another interesting point is that we have more special teams/ defensive points this year than we had all of last year. Those are included in the scoring totals on NFL.com and espn.com.

chex
12-01-2009, 09:42 AM
I am just trying to understand what Chex is talking about. That post had nothing to do with what I said. I can only assume that is some response as to why Orton is the answer since that is what my post was about.

"We haven't come close to the top half of the league in scoring this season. The offense, especially in early games, has been going 3 and out constantly. The o-line suddenly got worse as did all of our recievers. I do not understand the blind love fpor Orton."


What's so hard to understand? You point out offensive shortcomings and direct the finger at Orton. My post responding to this points out how the Bears are doing worse than last year - most importantly in the standings.

Maybe it's just coincidence that Cutler goes from one team to the next, and each time his team did better without him.

jhns
12-01-2009, 09:43 AM
Orton can be great in McD's system. People have to realize that he's in his first year in McD's Spread Offense and everyone knew that this system takes time to master, especially for the QB. One reason McD considered bringing Cassel in was because Cassel knew the system. Orton is still learning the system and this time next year, he's gonna be that much better.

I seriously doubt McD is gonna draft a QB on the first day. Orton may not be respected by a lot of posters here but I guarantee you he's gained McD's respect and the respect of the players.

So Mr. denvermooseguy, you were saying?

jhns
12-01-2009, 09:45 AM
Who said Orton was the answer? I never did.

However, you and all the others think that Jay was.

I can only imagine how much you wish that the teams' fortunes this year were reversed.

Do you even try to make sense or do you just like to throw stuff out there?

TheElusiveKyleOrton
12-01-2009, 09:47 AM
So Mr. denvermooseguy, you were saying?

Control - F. Search "answer". The only person using that word in regard to Orton is you.

The post you quoted didn't claim he was "the answer."

Is he good enough to win with for now? Yes. Do we have greater needs? Yes. Will he probably be here a few years? Yes, regardless of whether we take a flyer on an early round QB.

An awful lot of this is based on what the coaching staff has seen from Brandstater. Because we haven't seen him in any games, we have no idea. He may be outstanding. The staff may be willing to open up competition between Orton and Brandstater next season. Or the season after that. And if we can win with Orton while we develop someone like Brandstater, it doesn't make Orton "the answer."

It's not as black and white as you seem to want to believe.

chex
12-01-2009, 09:50 AM
Do you even try to make sense or do you just like to throw stuff out there?

Translation: "I'll use the ol' 'you don't make sense' line to mask my inability to respond without compromising everything I've been saying all along."

Beantown Bronco
12-01-2009, 09:51 AM
Maybe they are ranked that high because they are playing teams like us, that don't score....

C'mon now. This all balances itself out over the course of a season.

As for what you just showed: Cutler hurt his throwing hand on the first play of the NE game.

So Cutler gets a pass, but Orton doesn't for the SAME EXACT INJURY. I'm going to let you think about the irony of this statement for a little while.

He executed exactly what Shanahan said in Tampa, and 16/17 points against the good defenses is not bad when you look at the fact our entire offense was rookie-third year guys that set a lot of Bronco records. No, this years offense isn't as good and the numbers prove it.

Numbers without context are meaningless. Debate 101 would teach that.

Another interesting point is that we have more special teams/ defensive points this year than we had all of last year. Those are included in the scoring totals on NFL.com and espn.com.

Doesn't at all change the point I was making about the rankings of the defenses we've faced.

chex
12-01-2009, 09:53 AM
Control - F. Search "answer". The only person using that word in regard to Orton is you.

The post you quoted didn't claim he was "the answer."

Is he good enough to win with for now? Yes. Do we have greater needs? Yes. Will he probably be here a few years? Yes, regardless of whether we take a flyer on an early round QB.

An awful lot of this is based on what the coaching staff has seen from Brandstater. Because we haven't seen him in any games, we have no idea. He may be outstanding. The staff may be willing to open up competition between Orton and Brandstater next season. Or the season after that. And if we can win with Orton while we develop someone like Brandstater, it doesn't make Orton "the answer."

It's not as black and white as you seem to want to believe.

Come on Moose, you know deep down, Cutler is the answer.

As in, "who leads the league in interceptions?"

jhns
12-01-2009, 09:56 AM
Control - F. Search "answer". The only person using that word in regard to Orton is you.

The post you quoted didn't claim he was "the answer."

Is he good enough to win with for now? Yes. Do we have greater needs? Yes. Will he probably be here a few years? Yes, regardless of whether we take a flyer on an early round QB.

An awful lot of this is based on what the coaching staff has seen from Brandstater. Because we haven't seen him in any games, we have no idea. He may be outstanding. The staff may be willing to open up competition between Orton and Brandstater next season. Or the season after that. And if we can win with Orton while we develop someone like Brandstater, it doesn't make Orton "the answer."

It's not as black and white as you seem to want to believe.

I'm not sure how you get that from his post but maybe I am just reading to much into it. I see a lot here acting like Orton has actually been good and they defend everything Orton. He has been great at not turning the ball over but very below average everywhere else. If Cutler, Plummer, or Griese looked the same way, tons of people would get on them about it. Now I just read excuses for all the bad play. That or a long spin into it really being good play. Maybe you guys aren't saying he is the answer. You are still all giving him far more slack than any Denver QB has ever gotten and it is only because you are butthurt about Cutler. The simple fact is, our offense is not producing. What it did last year has nothing to do with anything. They aren't producing now.

BlaK-Argentina
12-01-2009, 10:04 AM
I can't believe there are still Cutler fans defending him. When you look back at all the time you spent defending that piece of **** you'll feel pretty bad. Orton may not be the greatest QB but at least he's a very likeable guy, and a winner. Easy to root for him.

**** Cutler.

jhns
12-01-2009, 10:04 AM
C'mon now. This all balances itself out over the course of a season.



So Cutler gets a pass, but Orton doesn't for the SAME EXACT INJURY. I'm going to let you think about the irony of this statement for a little while.



Numbers without context are meaningless. Debate 101 would teach that.



Doesn't at all change the point I was making about the rankings of the defenses we've faced.

So it all balances itself out huh? Why is it that you are comparing who our offense has played between the two years again?....

Who says Cutler gets a pass? Who says Orton doesn't? I simply pointed it out. Has Orton had the same injury all season? What about through his career? Maybe he is just extremely injury prone? That doesn't make the case for Orton any better.

Then why can't I put those defenses in context?

Anyways, I'm not sure why you want to argue this. My original statement was that just because last years offense wasn't good enough, doesn't mean this years is. Just because Cutler wasn't good enough, doesn't mean Orton is. I'm not arguing that we should have kept Cutler. I am just saying I don't think Orton is the answer. I referenced last years offense to say the line and recievers have proven they are better than this offense is making them look.