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Archer81
11-29-2009, 03:41 PM
Come on Beany you know thus far of all the games Moreno has played thus far, running btwn the tackles to pick up crucial 3rd and shorts......Moreno has come up short. The question is could Peyton had picked up the tough yardage in the red zone to have made a difference? I guess we will never know. In fact Peyton may just need to go to another team to prove you and McDaneils wrong.:sunshine:


Are you a fan of the Denver Broncos at all, or do you go gay for certain players and ignore the team they play for?


:Broncos:

rastaman
11-29-2009, 03:42 PM
Yeah, it's just that simple.:spit:

Yep! You either have the talent, strength and power to pickup short yardage as well as cause mismatches with your pass catching ability out of the backfield or you don't.:sunshine:

Beantown Bronco
11-29-2009, 03:43 PM
Come on Beany you know thus far of all the games Moreno has played thus far, running btwn the tackles to pick up crucial 3rd and shorts......Moreno has come up short. The question is could Peyton had picked up the tough yardage in the red zone to have made a difference? I guess we will never know. In fact Peyton may just need to go to another team to prove you and McDaneils wrong.:sunshine:

Again, proven wrong. 3rd and goal TD by Moreno just a few days ago.

How soon we forget.

rastaman
11-29-2009, 03:45 PM
Are you a fan of the Denver Broncos at all, or do you go gay for certain players and ignore the team they play for?


:Broncos:

Screw all you fan/gay inuendos.......Hillis should be out on the field and given ample opportunities to contribute to the Broncos offensively with the first team offense. It has nothing to do with the crap you just typed.;)

rastaman
11-29-2009, 03:46 PM
Again, proven wrong. 3rd and goal TD by Moreno just a few days ago.

How soon we forget.

Yep where were those 3rd and short runs during the 4 game losing streak! Just saying man. You never know what Hillis could have contributed during the 4 game losing streak when Hillis wasn't getting it done.:thumbs:

Archer81
11-29-2009, 03:55 PM
Yep where were those 3rd and short runs during the 4 game losing streak! Just saying man. You never know what Hillis could have contributed during the 4 game losing streak when Hillis wasn't getting it done.:thumbs:


If Hillis was not in...no **** he wouldnt have gotten it done. Is english your first language?


:Broncos:

Archer81
11-29-2009, 04:00 PM
Screw all you fan/gay inuendos.......Hillis should be out on the field and given ample opportunities to contribute to the Broncos offensively with the first team offense. It has nothing to do with the crap you just typed.;)


Apparently you did not know what I meant by "gay for"...you are so enamored with Cutler and Hillis that any flaw in their game or their coachability is overlooked due to your enduring dislike for McDaniels. Its an obvious sign that you dont really care about the Broncos, you just want your great white hypes in, regardless of their ability to actually make an impact on the field for the team. Moreno has more talent than Hillis, and is applying that talent on the field...if he didnt, he wouldnt be starting, or even playing.

:Broncos:

Blart
11-29-2009, 04:00 PM
Hillis is the greatest RB in the history of the NFL. Only I and my fellow white internet friends are aware of this fact.

Popps
11-29-2009, 04:05 PM
Pops its obvious Peyton does not have an offensive future here in Denver so long as McD is the coach. According to McD........Peyton is an expendable
7th round Special Team player. Question is, does Petyon feel he is much more to offer as a Running Back in this league or has he believed in the BS McD is selling that he's only an expendable Special Teams player?????

Sorry?

BS McDaniels is "selling?"

You mean, winning football games?

The only "BS" he's selling is the same "BS" Shanahan sold, which is that when given the choice, both great offensive coaches chose to plant Hillis firmly on the bench.

You can kick and scream all day and wish this weren't the case, but it is. It's not going to change.


Hillis has physical talent. So do a lot of guys. Maybe he'll eventually get some carries.

Right now, he can't even beat out Larsen for reps at FB. That's a tell-tale sign that he's got major problems.

McDaniels will start the guy who performs the best. We've seen that since day one.

As I said, the proof of the conspiracy theory lies with you, not the rest of the thinking football world.

rastaman
11-29-2009, 04:08 PM
If Hillis was not in...no **** he wouldnt have gotten it done. Is english your first language?


:Broncos:

Shhhhhhhh......calm done Oh righteous one. Unless you can prove otherwise, at the start of training camp and thru out the preseason Hillis was more involved and took more reps on special teams than he did with the first team offense! Are you denying this did not happen? McD made the choice to put Hillis on special teams b/c Josh already had his pet RB's to run his offensive schemes. Simply put Hillis was never given ample opportunities to compete for more playing time with the first team offense.

Now I'm sure McD gave the rah-rah peep talk that he's needed on special teams.....yet stay ready for any given moment for playing time with the first team offense.......but everyone knows and Hillis should as well that McD has ordained Peyton as his expendable "Do-It-For-The Team" Special Teams player.

Peyton languishing as ST players will never realize his life long dream of becoming a contributing dynamic and versitile FB/TB in the NFL on Josh McDaniels coached team.

If Peyton wants to realize NFL stardom and one day sign a financially lucurative contract to secure himself and love ones, he can't do it in Denver unless McD has a change of heart. Peyton's gonna have to show his talent and value with another NFL team in another city.

Thats the reality.

rastaman
11-29-2009, 04:15 PM
Sorry?

BS McDaniels is "selling?"

You mean, winning football games?

The only "BS" he's selling is the same "BS" Shanahan sold, which is that when given the choice, both great offensive coaches chose to plant Hillis firmly on the bench.

You can kick and scream all day and wish this weren't the case, but it is. It's not going to change.


Hillis has physical talent. So do a lot of guys. Maybe he'll eventually get some carries.

Right now, he can't even beat out Larsen for reps at FB. That's a tell-tale sign that he's got major problems.

McDaniels will start the guy who performs the best. We've seen that since day one.

As I said, the proof of the conspiracy theory lies with you, not the rest of the thinking football world.

Yeah right! During the 4 game losing streak with Moreno and Buckhalter not getting the job done, was Peyton given an opportunity to see if he could jump start the running attack? Nope he sure wasn't. You can't compete if your not given ample opportunity to do so. But somehow you think it can be done. Go Figure.

Anyway since its precieved by you and McD that Hillis has some major problems mentally and can't learn McD's Harvard 21st Century offensive schemes---lets hope should Peyton ask for his release McD respect his wishes. Hillis has way to much offensive talent than to rot away in the special teams Gulag!

Ray Finkle
11-29-2009, 04:18 PM
Yeah right! During the 4 game losing streak with Moreno and Buckhalter not getting the job done, was Peyton given an opportunity to see if he could jump start the running attack? Nope he sure wasn't. You can't compete if your not given ample opportunity to do so. But somehow you think it can be done. Go Figure.

Anyway since its precieved by you and McD that Hillis has some major problems mentally and can't learn McD's Harvard 21st Century offensive schemes---lets hope should Peyton ask for his release McD respect his wishes. Hillis has way to much offensive talent than to rot away in the special teams Gulag!

Pops, just proof you are battling with a simpleton. Rasta knows more than you...don't worry what people who have insider knowledge have said about him. Much like Young, Torain, Bell, he would have broken 2K this year...

rastaman
11-29-2009, 04:24 PM
Pops, just proof you are battling with a simpleton. Rasta knows more than you...don't worry what people who have insider knowledge have said about him. Much like Young, Torain, Bell, he would have broken 2K this year...

Oh Boy here comes Drama Queen herself with empty platitudes and sock puppet comments. Whats your secret Ray-Ray?

But hey don't get excited......we all know Hillis isn't worthy and talented enough to contribute and help out a lower 20 something Bronco offense.

Its not in Hillis's destiny to become a starter or major contributor in the McDaniel's vaunted unstoppable Offense. Its time for Hillis to move on next season and hope he can latch on to a team that will appreciate his talent and not regulate him to special teams. After all, he's not getting any younger.

Popps
11-29-2009, 04:25 PM
Pops, just proof you are battling with a simpleton. Rasta knows more than you...don't worry what people who have insider knowledge have said about him. Much like Young, Torain, Bell, he would have broken 2K this year...

Rasta was the same guy who told us Cutler would blow up in Chicago... and that McDaniels was trash and would be lucky to win 3 games.

You'd think at a certain point... when someone is just plain wrong on almost everything they post, they'd just give it up.

Popps
11-29-2009, 04:27 PM
Its not in Hillis's destiny to become a starter or major contributor in the McDaniel's vaunted unstoppable Offense. Its time for Hillis to move on next season and hope he can latch on to a team that will appreciate his talent and not regulate him to special teams. .

Yea, you seem to be very interested in underperforming players and not the team.

Why not just move on and stop the act?

You think anyone here gives a **** about Peyton Hillis or any other 4th stringer when the team is winning?

On the upside, your boy Cutler only threw 2 INTs today against 1 TD. That's a career day for him.

rastaman
11-29-2009, 04:28 PM
Rasta was the same guy who told us Cutler would blow up in Chicago... and that McDaniels was trash and would be lucky to win 3 games.

You'd think at a certain point... when someone is just plain wrong on almost everything they post, they'd just give it up.

Yep! I hear ya. Meanwhile you continue to post excuses during the 4 game losing streak while lowering the bar of expectations for Orton. Keep up the great work at "Fence Straddling" no one does it better than you. You should be getting paid.:pimp:

rastaman
11-29-2009, 04:31 PM
Yea, you seem to be very interested in underperforming players and not the team.

Why not just move on and stop the act?

You think anyone here gives a **** about Peyton Hillis or any other 4th stringer when the team is winning?

On the upside, your boy Cutler only threw 2 INTs today against 1 TD. That's a career day for him.

Hillis isn't under performing you Dork! Peyton just isn't given ample opportunities to play with the first team offense to prove just how wrong you are.

Hopefully Hillis is in another uniform next season and will recieve what he did not get in Denver......and thats a chance to contribute and compete with the first team offense.

Ray Finkle
11-29-2009, 04:35 PM
Oh Boy here comes Drama Queen herself with empty platitudes and sock puppet comments. Whats your secret Ray-Ray?

But hey don't get excited......we all know Hillis isn't worthy and talented enough to contribute and help out a lower 20 something Bronco offense.

Its not in Hillis's destiny to become a starter or major contributor in the McDaniel's vaunted unstoppable Offense. Its time for Hillis to move on next season and hope he can latch on to a team that will appreciate his talent and not regulate him to special teams. After all, he's not getting any younger.


little boy, way before you came to the Mane, there were several people that had inside ties to the team. The Mane first broke the stories of the Broncos trying to trade up to get Williams, Coyer being fired, etc. These folks were/are able to provide deep insight. Last year I spoke with this person and again early this year. I brought up Hillis and was given the response, I have replied to you countless times.

You are too ignorant to pay attention....btw I spoke with a Redskins contact and they explained why they removed him from their draftboard was because he was slow....good players like him, don't fall that far without a reason...

Good Night Sunshine.

rastaman
11-29-2009, 04:43 PM
little boy, way before you came to the Mane, there were several people that had inside ties to the team. The Mane first broke the stories of the Broncos trying to trade up to get Williams, Coyer being fired, etc. These folks were/are able to provide deep insight. Last year I spoke with this person and again early this year. I brought up Hillis and was given the response, I have replied to you countless times.

You are too ignorant to pay attention....btw I spoke with a Redskins contact and they explained why they removed him from their draftboard was because he was slow....good players like him, don't fall that far without a reason...

Good Night Sunshine.

Yeah whatever! Just allow Hillis a chance to contribute on any given Sunday and he will prove those Arm Chair Bronco Insiders WRONG!

Sure practice is important. However, you have players that have great practices and play mediocre on Sundays. Hillis isn't a practice player......but he sure has proven if given ample opportunity he sure can contribute on Sundays'.

Can you pay attention to that fact!!! Probably not.:sunshine:

houghtam
11-29-2009, 05:02 PM
3.5 games.

343 yards.

Call Tatum Bell.

Ray Finkle
11-29-2009, 05:02 PM
Yeah whatever! Just allow Hillis a chance to contribute on any given Sunday and he will prove those Arm Chair Bronco Insiders WRONG!

Sure practice is important. However, you have players that have great practices and play mediocre on Sundays. Hillis isn't a practice player......but he sure has proven if given ample opportunity he sure can contribute on Sundays'.

Can you pay attention to that fact!!! Probably not.:sunshine:

If he could produce, he would.....other than a few games last year, he has done squat....

You don't reward someone who doesn't practice hard with play time....coaching 101.

mhgaffney
11-29-2009, 05:05 PM
What a bunch of garbage

BlaK-Argentina
11-29-2009, 05:17 PM
Hopefully Hillis is in another uniform next season and will recieve what he did not get in Denver......and thats a chance to contribute and compete with the first team offense.

If that means you'll stop bitching about him when Buck and Moreno are clearly superior in the minds of the coaching staff (do you even know who Denver's RB coach is? I'm guessing he knows a bit more than you do) then I wish he leaves too.

And I like Hillis a lot.

Popps
11-29-2009, 07:16 PM
Hillis isn't under performing you Dork! Peyton just isn't given ample opportunities to play with the first team offense to prove just how wrong you are.

Oh, right... because coaches always bench the better players. He just must be "performing" up a storm, huh? Can't even beat out Larsen at FB, and is 3rd on the depth chart.

Just like with Shanahan, who did everything in his power to avoid starting him.


Again, you sold us Jay Cutler as a franchise QB, so I'm not sure why you even bother. Your track record is horrid, and that's well-known.

Bronco Yoda
11-29-2009, 07:24 PM
Put Hillis in the game!

rastaman
11-29-2009, 07:35 PM
Oh, right... because coaches always bench the better players. He just must be "performing" up a storm, huh? Can't even beat out Larsen at FB, and is 3rd on the depth chart.

Just like with Shanahan, who did everything in his power to avoid starting him.


Again, you sold us Jay Cutler as a franchise QB, so I'm not sure why you even bother. Your track record is horrid, and that's well-known.

Whats your track record like besides fence straddling with your opinions. You were wrong about the importance of Brandon Marshall and were all but ready to ship him out of town......yet w/o Bmarsh this season Denver and McD would have been 3-3 vs 6-0 and 4-7 overall. Yeah right I hear ya. With fans like you the players are definitely playing for Roman Gladiator fans. So do you give Marshal the "Thumbs-up" or "Thumbs-Down".

I'm sure for a fence straddling hack like yourself.....its a very difficult decision---you Fair Weather Player Supporter.

Broncos fans are all breathing a sigh of relief no one listened to your Dumb Azz with getting rid of Marshall or suspending him for few games.

I also noticed how you lowered the bar of expectations when Orton became a Bronco as well. You are a fraud and an opportunist and a bandwagon player fan while sucking up to the coaches, management and the owners. You are indeed a typical HACK!

Dagmar
11-29-2009, 07:48 PM
Whats your track record like besides fence straddling with your opinions. You were wrong about the importance of Brandon Marshall and were all but ready to ship him out of town......yet w/o Bmarsh this season Denver and McD would have been 3-3 vs 6-0 and 4-7 overall. Yeah right I hear ya. With fans like you the players are definitely playing for Roman Gladiator fans. So do you give Marshal the "Thumbs-up" or "Thumbs-Down".

I'm sure for a fence straddling hack like yourself.....its a very difficult decision---you Fair Weather Player Supporter.

Broncos fans are all breathing a sigh of relief no one listened to your Dumb Azz with getting rid of Marshall or suspending him for few games.

I also noticed how you lowered the bar of expectations when Orton became a Bronco as well. You are a fraud and an opportunist and a bandwagon player fan while sucking up to the coaches, management and the owners. You are indeed a typical HACK!

http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t231/mtllude/pot-kettle.gif

strafen
11-29-2009, 11:14 PM
OK, first off you do realize that almost 63% of Hillis 2008 rushing yards were gained against the 25th (ATL), 28th (CLEV), 30th (KC), and 31st (OAK) ranked run defenses? In fairness to him he did have a monster game against the NFL's 7th best run defense (NYJ)...however the bottom line is he ran against arguably a buffet of pussies when it came to stopping the run.

And I find it odd that you want people in here to give proof positive about what they say about Hillis...and yet you're in here saying that this is a bad decision by McDaniels.

What proof do you have that this is indeed a bad decision by him other than the player you like isn't playing?Doesn't matter, you also forgot to mention the monster game he had against the Dolphins.
Thanks for bringing those games against a "buffet of pussies", but you know what, he did his job. He wasn't going to play down to the competition, and when you're a great player, that's what you do, you destroy the bad teams you're supposed to.
What has Moreno done against Washington, Cleveland and the Raiders?
Thought so!

Popps
11-29-2009, 11:55 PM
Doesn't matter, you also forgot to mention the monster game he had against the Dolphins.

For the record, he was a receiver in that game, not a RB. He did almost all of his damage in the receiving game.


Thanks for bringing those games against a "buffet of pussies", but you know what, he did his job. He wasn't going to play down to the competition, and when you're a great player, that's what you do, you destroy the bad teams you're supposed to.
What has Moreno done against Washington, Cleveland and the Raiders?
Thought so!

Moreno averaged 8 and 5 yards per carry his last two games. He's our future, regardless of how Hillis is worked in.

But, again... we won't have to worry about that because Hillis can't even beat out Larsen for time at FB. So, once he does... we can have a discussion about who is better.

Right now, for the second year in a row... a brilliant offensive coach has chosen to bury Hillis on the depth chart.

Again, when you have proof of the conspiracy that Shanny and McD were both in on, let us know. Until then, you're just wasting everyone's time.

Taco John
11-30-2009, 12:19 AM
The funny thing is, last year Popps was calling Shanahan an idiot for not starting Hillis sooner.

Popps
11-30-2009, 12:30 AM
The funny thing is, last year Popps was calling Shanahan an idiot for not starting Hillis sooner.

Of course, I never used the word "idiot," but I certainly did say that he was a better option that Selvin Young or some scrub from the practice squad. ("Cooked Crack," I believe it was?)

Sure. Not sure what's so "funny" about that, Taco. Maybe I missed something.

Naturally, had we Moreno and Buckhalter on the roster last season, we wouldn't have needed to have a Peyton Hillis discussion at all.

Archer81
11-30-2009, 12:56 AM
This is the thread that never ends...it just goes on and on my friends...some people, started posting it not knowing what it was, and now it will go on forever just because it is the thread that never ends...


:Broncos:

Yes I realize the irony of posting this.

Atwater His Ass
11-30-2009, 02:57 AM
The funny thing is, last year Popps was calling Shanahan an idiot for not starting Hillis sooner.

you make my day taco.

rastaman
11-30-2009, 04:06 AM
http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t231/mtllude/pot-kettle.gif

Hey Rusty you and Pops make a dynamic duo. Thanks for having his back and he owes you one.;D

Beantown Bronco
11-30-2009, 05:51 AM
What has Moreno done against Washington, Cleveland and the Raiders?
Thought so!

A lot of good Hillis did us against the Faid last year. You know, that game that we lost when he started....

errand
11-30-2009, 05:53 AM
Wow, so alot of you clowns think Hillis should be the starter based on his performance last year.

I guess it never occurred to any of you that perhaps Hillis was just a one hit wonder?

Happens all the time in the NFL....

Don Majkowski
Olandis Gary
Derek Anderson
Rashaan Salaam
Brian Griese

...just to name a few players who had good to great seasons only to become nothing more than marginal players at best.

Perhaps Hillis has already peaked and has reached his terminal position in the NFL.

rastaman
11-30-2009, 06:09 AM
[QUOTE=errand;2658549]Wow, so alot of you clowns think Hillis should be the starter based on his performance last year. [QUOTE]

Based on Hillis's performance last year, he should have been given ample and fair opportunities to compete with the first team offense during this years training camp and preseason games vs immediately getting thrown onto Special Teams and getting very few reps or any with the first team.

Hillis can't help it if McD foolishly believes he's a special teams player. Hillis just so happens to disagree with Ole' McD's decision.

Can't wait until next season McD puts Moreno on special teams as punishment for already coughing up 4 fumbles. And to pile on McD also doesn't allow Moreno any reps with the first team offense and limits his starts with the first team offense as well.

Then we can all listen to Pops say what an un-talented player Moreno is and how dumb Moreno is b/c he can't remember the offense and Moreno is fumbling too many KOR's and punts.....and so on.

errand
11-30-2009, 06:15 AM
Doesn't matter, you also forgot to mention the monster game he had against the Dolphins.
Thanks for bringing those games against a "buffet of pussies", but you know what, he did his job. He wasn't going to play down to the competition, and when you're a great player, that's what you do, you destroy the bad teams you're supposed to.
What has Moreno done against Washington, Cleveland and the Raiders?
Thought so!

Yes, Hillis had 7 receptions for 116 yards (47 longest) and a TD vs Dolphins....great game...against the NFL's 25th rank PASS defense

What did Moreno do vs the Browns (75 yards), Raiders (90), and Skins (97)? I dunno....maybe the same thing he did against the Giants (88), the Pats (88) Dallas (65) and San Diego (80)*?

Yet another one legged man coming intot he ass kicking contest.




* this was in game two @ Denver. He had 18 carries for 44 yards in the first SD game on road...total vs Chargers 28-124-4.4

strafen
11-30-2009, 08:06 AM
Yes, Hillis had 7 receptions for 116 yards (47 longest) and a TD vs Dolphins....great game...against the NFL's 25th rank PASS defense

What did Moreno do vs the Browns (75 yards), Raiders (90), and Skins (97)? I dunno....maybe the same thing he did against the Giants (88), the Pats (88) Dallas (65) and San Diego (80)*?

Yet another one legged man coming intot he ass kicking contest.




* this was in game two @ Denver. He had 18 carries for 44 yards in the first SD game on road...total vs Chargers 28-124-4.4Moreno, a 1st round pick yet to break 100 yards rushing?
That's not what I call getting contribution. What you think?

Let me know when Moreno breaks 100 yards. It may well be this Sunday when we play a lame KC team.
Maybe not.
11 games into the season and all he has to show for is not a single 100-yard game and only 4 TD's and 4 fumbles. Don't make me laugh!
The guy is a dud. He's not an impact player, is he?

Beantown Bronco
11-30-2009, 09:18 AM
Moreno, a 1st round pick yet to break 100 yards rushing?
That's not what I call getting contribution. What you think?

Let me know when Moreno breaks 100 yards. It may well be this Sunday when we play a lame KC team.
Maybe not.
11 games into the season and all he has to show for is not a single 100-yard game and only 4 TD's and 4 fumbles. Don't make me laugh!
The guy is a dud. He's not an impact player, is he?

Dude. We've already been over this 100 times. He's only started 5 games and has been splitting carries in all of them. The final yardage total isn't as important as his yards per carry, which is GREAT. They are obviously easing him into things because of the injury and holdout over the summer. Nothing at all wrong with that.

And two penalties that had no effect whatsoever on his runs cost him 30+ yards this past week. That would've put him around 120. Even without them, he was clearly very effective against the Giants.

Popps
11-30-2009, 09:26 AM
Again, this is really simple... Hillis can't manage to win a starting job for a second year in a row.

I think he's talented, but you know what... what I think doesn't matter.

He's a back-up. We have better players in front of him.

Unless someone wants to step up with concrete proof of the conspiracy... then we can all assume the logical reasons for Hillis being deep on the depth chart.

outdoor_miner
11-30-2009, 09:38 AM
[QUOTE=errand;2658549]Based on Hillis's performance last year, he should have been given ample and fair opportunities to compete with the first team offense during this years training camp and preseason games vs immediately getting thrown onto Special Teams and getting very few reps or any with the first team.

Hillis can't help it if McD foolishly believes he's a special teams player. Hillis just so happens to disagree with Ole' McD's decision.

Where in the world do you come up with this idea that a player can't play on Special Teams, and still get reps with the offense??? We have numerous starters sprinkled throughout the Special Teams units, as does every single team in the league.

urthermore, it was reported throughout Training Camp that Hillis was getting tons of playing time with the #1s. McDaniels even stated that he was the #1 short yardage back to start the year. His demotion occurred after the season started for reasons we all know.

Gort
11-30-2009, 11:09 AM
this thread needs a poll.

a) Hillis isn't playing because he's dumb.
b) Hillis isn't playing because he's white.
c) Hillis isn't playing because he's Shanahan's player.
d) Hillis isn't playing because McD is a McPoopyPants.
e) Hillis isn't playing because he isn't performing in practice.

f) Hillis should play because he was awesome last year.
g) Hillis should play because he's white.
h) Hillis should play because he hasn't been given a chance yet.
i) Hillis should play because he can get a first down in short yardage.

did i cover all of the prevailing viewpoints?

for the record, i agree with e), f), h), and i)

Popps
11-30-2009, 11:24 AM
[QUOTE=rastaman;2658558]

McDaniels even stated that he was the #1 short yardage back to start the year. His demotion occurred after the season started for reasons we all know.

Again, the malcontents won't like it... but the rumor I heard from what sounded to be a fairly credible source said Hillis had the problems with the playbook towards the end of camp.

For the record, I believe the only reason that person shared the information with me is because I was a huge Hillis fan. I think this poster was somewhat attempting to inject some reality into my enthusiasm, and it turns out... they were exactly right.

Again, that's just one source of hearing this information of many (including the attached scouting report)... but the info did seem to turn out to be correct.

It's unlikely McDaniels punishes a guy to a major extent because of a fumble. Rather, I'd expect him to drop the hammer on a guy who wasn't up to par mentally, or being insubordinate.



As we've covered many times... there is NO QUESTION that Hillis has the physical tools to contribute to this offense, and perhaps he eventually will. But right now, it seems fairly obvious what's going on, and it's not a conspiracy. He's just not getting it done with regards to practicing, special teams and just generally doing his job.

Gort
11-30-2009, 11:30 AM
[QUOTE=outdoor_miner;2658726]

Again, the malcontents won't like it... but the rumor I heard from what sounded to be a fairly credible source said Hillis had the problems with the playbook towards the end of camp.

For the record, I believe the only reason that person shared the information with me is because I was a huge Hillis fan. I think this poster was somewhat attempting to inject some reality into my enthusiasm, and it turns out... they were exactly right.

Again, that's just one source of hearing this information of many (including the attached scouting report)... but the info did seem to turn out to be correct.

It's unlikely McDaniels punishes a guy to a major extent because of a fumble. Rather, I'd expect him to drop the hammer on a guy who wasn't up to par mentally, or being insubordinate.



As we've covered many times... there is NO QUESTION that Hillis has the physical tools to contribute to this offense, and perhaps he eventually will. But right now, it seems fairly obvious what's going on, and it's not a conspiracy. He's just not getting it done with regards to practicing, special teams and just generally doing his job.

i don't buy the whole "hillis is too stupid" argument. it's insulting to a guy who's played football all his life. he's not a QB or WR. there's not THAT much that needs to be learned for the FB/RB position. he's had years and years to learn it. i think it's more likely that he doesn't practice hard and/or doesn't listen to coaches as much as they might like.

Bronco LB52
11-30-2009, 11:56 AM
Again, this is really simple... Hillis can't manage to win a starting job for a second year in a row.

Wrong. Hillis was the starting fullback during the first half of the 2008 season until injuries thrust him into the halfback role.

McDaniels only employs the fullback in heavy, goal-line sets, which is another reason why Hillis has had trouble finding playing time.

Bronco Yoda
11-30-2009, 01:37 PM
[QUOTE=outdoor_miner;2658726]

Again, the malcontents won't like it... but the rumor I heard from what sounded to be a fairly credible source said Hillis had the problems with the playbook towards the end of camp.

For the record, I believe the only reason that person shared the information with me is because I was a huge Hillis fan. I think this poster was somewhat attempting to inject some reality into my enthusiasm, and it turns out... they were exactly right.

Again, that's just one source of hearing this information of many (including the attached scouting report)... but the info did seem to turn out to be correct.

It's unlikely McDaniels punishes a guy to a major extent because of a fumble. Rather, I'd expect him to drop the hammer on a guy who wasn't up to par mentally, or being insubordinate.



As we've covered many times... there is NO QUESTION that Hillis has the physical tools to contribute to this offense, and perhaps he eventually will. But right now, it seems fairly obvious what's going on, and it's not a conspiracy. He's just not getting it done with regards to practicing, special teams and just generally doing his job.


I call B.S. Who is this man in black... agent X that is said to be slipping you top secret Bronco info.

You out there agent X!

Show yourself.

.... didn't think so. :spit:

Bronco Yoda
11-30-2009, 01:39 PM
Put Hillis in Coach.

I'm not saying start him but he should be in the rotation. He has the best hands of all the running backs and is the best short yardage runner.

Put him in McD!

Popps
11-30-2009, 01:49 PM
Wrong. Hillis was the starting fullback during the first half of the 2008 season until injuries thrust him into the halfback role.

McDaniels only employs the fullback in heavy, goal-line sets, which is another reason why Hillis has had trouble finding playing time.

Hillis was not a starting RB, which is the conversation we're having.


Thanks.

Bronco LB52
11-30-2009, 01:51 PM
Hillis was not a starting RB, which is the conversation we're having.


Thanks.

He wasn't drafted or brought in to be a starting running back. He's a fullback by trade, which was also the position he played in college.

Why would you knock him for not winning the RB position last year when Denver had no intentions of putting him there until the injuries forced their hand?

errand
11-30-2009, 01:59 PM
Moreno, a 1st round pick yet to break 100 yards rushing?
That's not what I call getting contribution. What you think?

Let me know when Moreno breaks 100 yards. It may well be this Sunday when we play a lame KC team.
Maybe not.
11 games into the season and all he has to show for is not a single 100-yard game and only 4 TD's and 4 fumbles. Don't make me laugh!
The guy is a dud. He's not an impact player, is he?

He's only had 20+ carries in only two games...in them he had 90 and 88 yards. No it's not 100 but then again he's been close both times he gotten 20 carries or more. He's also shared carries with Buckhalter as well.

However he's also got 265 yards on his last 47 carries...a 5.6 yards per carry average...that's also 88 yards a game on average the last 3 games. This kid is a complete back and will, barring injury, be a major contributor to our team's success.

I find amazing that when Mike replaced Jake, who had not only led us to the playoff 3 consecutive seasons and an AFC title game appearance, and was 7-4 at the time....the move was appaluded as it was time to pass the torch and let's see what the kid could do.

Now, when the future is being given the lion's share of reps at RB, it's McDaniels is an asshole holding back the next John Riggins

.

errand
11-30-2009, 02:03 PM
He wasn't drafted or brought in to be a starting running back. He's a fullback by trade, which was also the position he played in college.

Why would you knock him for not winning the RB position last year when Denver had no intentions of putting him there until the injuries forced their hand?

Shannon Sharpe wasn't a TE coming outta college...he was a WR. Mike didn't seem to be a problem playing him.

Bronco LB52
11-30-2009, 02:14 PM
Shannon Sharpe wasn't a TE coming outta college...he was a WR. Mike didn't seem to be a problem playing him.

Sharpe played sparingly during his first two seasons in the NFL (1990-91). He didn't breakout at the tight end position until 1992, his third year in the league.

Popps
11-30-2009, 02:29 PM
H
I find amazing that when Mike replaced Jake, who had not only led us to the playoff 3 consecutive seasons and an AFC title game appearance, and was 7-4 at the time....the move was appaluded as it was time to pass the torch and let's see what the kid could do.

Now, when the future is being given the lion's share of reps at RB, it's McDaniels is an a-hole holding back the next John Riggins

.


Welcome to the Orange Mane.

bronco militia
11-30-2009, 02:31 PM
He's only had 20+ carries in only two games...in them he had 90 and 88 yards. No it's not 100 but then again he's been close both times he gotten 20 carries or more. He's also shared carries with Buckhalter as well.

However he's also got 265 yards on his last 47 carries...a 5.6 yards per carry average...that's also 88 yards a game on average the last 3 games. This kid is a complete back and will, barring injury, be a major contributor to our team's success.

I find amazing that when Mike replaced Jake, who had not only led us to the playoff 3 consecutive seasons and an AFC title game appearance, and was 7-4 at the time....the move was appaluded as it was time to pass the torch and let's see what the kid could do.

Now, when the future is being given the lion's share of reps at RB, it's McDaniels is an a-hole holding back the next John Riggins

.

wow...that was a terrible comparison.

vancejohnson82
11-30-2009, 02:42 PM
Welcome to the Orange Mane.

exactly.....this place could argue the importance of toilet paper

Taco John
11-30-2009, 02:43 PM
I find amazing that when Mike replaced Jake, who had not only led us to the playoff 3 consecutive seasons and an AFC title game appearance, and was 7-4 at the time....the move was appaluded as it was time to pass the torch and let's see what the kid could do.

Now, when the future is being given the lion's share of reps at RB, it's McDaniels is an a-hole holding back the next John Riggins

.

When Mike replaced Jake, he was playing like absolute garbage, and even the most ardent Plummer supporters on the site were resigned to the fact that Jake had played his way out of a job on that Thanksgiving night.

The reason for the Hillis support right now is because Moreno has come up short in key situations - particularly third down and goal line situations. This last two weeks, however, Moreno has shown that he can be a work horse. Which is good. We need a work horse. I'm not convinced yet that he's a three down back, and can be consistently relied on in short yardage situations where he's asked to run through traffic. I'm not saying he can't turn into that kind of back. Perhaps adding 10 pounds to his frame would make him that.

Moreno is sort of a tweener. He doesn't seem to have the speed to break away for the huge gains, and he doesn't have the bulk to move the line or be reliable in traffic. What he does seem to have is above average field vision, and with it is able to break of moderate runs. It's not very exciting, but I think so long as our defense is performing and our quarterback is keeping his INT's down, it will be "ok" for us. But as soon as the other two pieces start to falter, then I think the effectiveness of Moreno really comes into question - at least for this season.

vancejohnson82
11-30-2009, 02:44 PM
When Mike replaced Jake, he was playing like absolute garbage, and even the most ardent Plummer supporters on the site were resigned to the fact that Jake had played his way out of a job on that Thanksgiving night.

The reason for the Hillis support right now is because Moreno has come up short in key situations - particularly third down and goal line situations. This last two weeks, however, Moreno has shown that he can be a work horse. Which is good. We need a work horse. I'm not convinced yet that he's a three down back, and can be consistently relied on in short yardage situations where he's asked to run through traffic. I'm not saying he can't turn into that kind of back. Perhaps adding 10 pounds to his frame would make him that.

Moreno is sort of a tweener. He doesn't seem to have the speed to break away for the huge gains, and he doesn't have the bulk to move the line or be reliable in traffic. What he does seem to have is above average field vision, and with it is able to break of moderate runs. It's not very exciting, but I think so long as our defense is performing and our quarterback is keeping his INT's down, it will be "ok" for us. But as soon as the other two pieces start to falter, then I think the effectiveness of Moreno really comes into question - at least for this season.

that got me excited because it reminded me of Terell Davis

Taco John
11-30-2009, 02:50 PM
that got me excited because it reminded me of Terell Davis

For what it's worth, I think Moreno would probably look a lot better in a ZBS/cutback rushing system. I'm not sold on the idea that he's great for a Erhardt-Perkins offense. At least not at his current playing weight. Add another 10-15 lbs. and it might be a different story - though only if the fumblitis goes away.

I think McDaniels probably recognizes this, and I think that this upcoming offseason, we're going to see a lot of stories about Moreno adding weight to his frame. I guess we'll see.

Bronco Yoda
11-30-2009, 02:57 PM
I was just about to say the same sort of thing TJ. But I'm not sure how he'll run with the added weight. He does seem at his best when given a choice to cut back in traffic picking his way using patience and taking what is given.

He's not going to dictate anything and surely not going to outrun most people but he does a nice job 'working' the blocks. I wish he had better hands though.

vancejohnson82
11-30-2009, 03:00 PM
For what it's worth, I think Moreno would probably look a lot better in a ZBS/cutback rushing system. I'm not sold on the idea that he's great for a Erhardt-Perkins offense. At least not at his current playing weight. Add another 10-15 lbs. and it might be a different story - though only if the fumblitis goes away.

I think McDaniels probably recognizes this, and I think that this upcoming offseason, we're going to see a lot of stories about Moreno adding weight to his frame. I guess we'll see.

I'm not really worried about the fumbling problem...happy it happened now and not at a more crucial part of his career....plus, with the right attention to detail and coaching anybody can get rid of that problem...Tiki Barber comes to mind

I agree about the cutback running system in order to take advantage of his vision...but he seems to be grasping the current system better too...all in all, I think the signs are good for this pick and I don't know what the hullaboo is about

Popps
11-30-2009, 03:03 PM
For what it's worth, I think Moreno would probably look a lot better in a ZBS/cutback rushing system. I'm not sold on the idea that he's great for a Erhardt-Perkins offense. At least not at his current playing weight. Add another 10-15 lbs. and it might be a different story - though only if the fumblitis goes away..

Emimitt Smith was 5'9", 215. Moreno is 5'11", 215.

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0bKT7cA4DOdtZ/340x.jpg

Yea, look how tiny and frail he looks, huh?


As for fumbles, he's lost the ball 4 times. One was absolutely not a fumble, and a fluke reaching for a score. The other was Ed Reed being shot out of a cannon. So, he's got 2 fumbles through 11 games that you could possibly pin on him not taking care of the ball properly.


Again, Taco... this is just another one of your smear campaigns that's going to wind up looking pretty funny in a year or so. (See "Gutless," etc.)

Why you've chosen to go after this kid is anyone's guess, but it'll be great to see you back-track when he's a top performer.

Dagmar
11-30-2009, 03:05 PM
This thread is pretty funny. Retitle it - "Come in here if you want a fight!"

Bronco Warrior
11-30-2009, 03:07 PM
Emimitt Smith was 5'9", 215. Moreno is 5'11", 215.

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0bKT7cA4DOdtZ/340x.jpg

Yea, look how tiny and frail he looks, huh?

.

Moreno has huge guns! Popps got it right. The only guy with bigger arms than Moreno on the team is maybe BDawk!

Bronco Warrior
11-30-2009, 03:10 PM
This thread is pretty funny. Retitle it - "Come in here if you want a fight!"

That would be most every thread on the page! so just label them "Come in if you wan a fight 1,2,3,4,5 etc"!

Popps
11-30-2009, 03:10 PM
Yea, if he could just put some muscle on... he'd be O.K..

Poor little thing.


http://media.collegepublisher.com/media/paper871/stills/y5sp49j8.jpg

Bronco Warrior
11-30-2009, 03:18 PM
Yea, if he could just put some muscle on... he'd be O.K..

Poor little thing.


http://media.collegepublisher.com/media/paper871/stills/y5sp49j8.jpg

Amen! He is a skinny little runt! 5'11 and only 215 what a whimp! :bash:

Actually in all fairness to the he's too small crowd the numbers are deceptive if you never saw the guy's build! Hell I'm 6'2 and 210 and I don't look anything close to what Moreno does...lmao! Of course I'm taller and 15 of that is in my GUT!! LMAO

Taco John
11-30-2009, 03:19 PM
Emimitt Smith was 5'9", 215. Moreno is 5'11", 215.

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0bKT7cA4DOdtZ/340x.jpg

Yea, look how tiny and frail he looks, huh?


As for fumbles, he's lost the ball 4 times. One was absolutely not a fumble, and a fluke reaching for a score. The other was Ed Reed being shot out of a cannon. So, he's got 2 fumbles through 11 games that you could possibly pin on him not taking care of the ball properly.


Again, Taco... this is just another one of your smear campaigns that's going to wind up looking pretty funny in a year or so. (See "Gutless," etc.)

Why you've chosen to go after this kid is anyone's guess, but it'll be great to see you back-track when he's a top performer.

The reason I've "chosen to go after this kid" is because he's lacked consistency, and shown a tendancy to fumble in crucial situations, and because during our four game skid, he was either invisible or proved to be a liability.

If he ever becomes a top performer, I won't need to do any backtracking. Moreno has earned the criticism he's taking for this season. His production problems this season doesn't mean he can't put it together for next season (or even for the rest of this season, for that matter). If he starts upping his consistency, I won't have any crow to eat, but I will have congratulations for him for his improvement. This last week, in particular, he's shown marked improvement. But finding the endzone with more consistency, and taking care of the ball is what he'll need to show in order to earn more faith from me.

Taco John
11-30-2009, 03:21 PM
Popps makes a good point though. He does look like he's got about as much muscle on that frame as it can contain. I wonder why he's so soft at the point of attack then. Maybe adding a FB to run in front of him would make a difference.

Bronco Yoda
11-30-2009, 03:24 PM
It's 3rd and goal on the 2 yard line.

Which RB do you want to get the ball?

rastaman
11-30-2009, 03:27 PM
Now, when the future is being given the lion's share of reps at RB, it's McDaniels is an a-hole holding back the next John Riggins

.

Errand, Hillis should have been given ample opportunity to compete and contribute with the first team Offense. McD didn't really give Peyton that opportunity due to assigning him to special teams.

Hopefully Peyton gets a break within the last 5 games or playoffs (should we make the playoffs).

If not, I wouldn't be surprised if Hillis request a meeting w/ McDaniels and ask for his release and catch on with another team that believe he's more than just a special teams player.

Bronco Warrior
11-30-2009, 03:29 PM
Popps makes a good point though. He does look like he's got about as much muscle on that frame as it can contain. I wonder why he's so soft at the point of attack then. Maybe adding a FB to run in front of him would make a difference.

I think Moreno's "softness" at the POA is due to Freshman hesitation not being soft or unwilling to stuff it up in the middle. The guy has played through injury and runs hard when he finally decides to hit the hole. The Giants game he was a beast and the more ZB run plays really helped him too.

Also one of the reasons rookies don't play as much all three downs in the NFL is because the p[ass protection is tough to pick up right away..Moreno has shined in pass blocking and that should also be taken into the big picture!

Bronco Warrior
11-30-2009, 03:32 PM
It's 3rd and goal on the 2 yard line.

Which RB do you want to get the ball?

what is the blocking scheme? Hillis is a battering ram when he has the work, and was a beast for us last year on short yardage. ZBS helps theme both who have a nose for the hole. That having been said Moreno is really starting to come on strong and has gotten the reps.
Was that a convoluted enough reply?

rastaman
11-30-2009, 03:34 PM
It's 3rd and goal on the 2 yard line.

Which RB do you want to get the ball?

Peyton Hillis! Nothing against Moreno.....but Hillis is the more powerful RB on the Broncos roster.

Also, McD isn't using Moreno in a scheme that would allow the rookie to be most effective and electrifying---and that would be to run Moreno from the
I-formation and run behind a lead blocking FB.

Anyone recall the 52 yard run Moreno ripped off one or two games ago! Guess what, Moreno made his longest run in his career b/c Larson as the FB threw the lead block that opened up the hole for Moreno to exploit.

Who knows Moreno would be on his way to rookie of the year if McD allowed him to run out of the I-formation with good lead blocking FB and more zone blocking schemes.
Just saying.

rastaman
11-30-2009, 03:38 PM
I think Moreno's "softness" at the POA is due to Freshman hesitation not being soft or unwilling to stuff it up in the middle. The guy has played through injury and runs hard when he finally decides to hit the hole. The Giants game he was a beast and the more ZB run plays really helped him too.

Also one of the reasons rookies don't play as much all three downs in the NFL is because the p[ass protection is tough to pick up right away..Moreno has shined in pass blocking and that should also be taken into the big picture!

The only thing missing for Moreno is a lead blocking FB to take on the first defender in the hole and allow the rookie to exploit the seam/alley that could result with behind a FB. Larsen proved as a lead blocking FB he can open holes for Moreno to exploit.

rastaman
11-30-2009, 03:42 PM
Yea, if he could just put some muscle on... he'd be O.K..

Poor little thing.


http://media.collegepublisher.com/media/paper871/stills/y5sp49j8.jpg

He needs to run behind a lead blocking FB out of the I-formation within a zone blocking scheme. Moreno running behind Larsen as a lead blocking FB would bring back memories of TD & Griffen.

Taco John
11-30-2009, 03:45 PM
Howard Griffith.

One of my favorite Broncos of all time.

watermock
11-30-2009, 03:46 PM
http://www3.pictures.gi.zimbio.com/Denver+Broncos+Minicamp+CPX46Ji_LjPl.jpg

McD is too fond of the 3wr/2 TE set.

BTW, as stupid as Hillis is, remarkable he learned the playbook as a FB and was thrust into TB thru injury.

Shouldn't of he have looked lost and hesitant?

Or is McD's scheme that more complex?

Frankly, Childress and Peyton have more imaginative schemes.

Popps
11-30-2009, 03:46 PM
Popps makes a good point though. He does look like he's got about as much muscle on that frame as it can contain. I wonder why he's so soft at the point of attack then.


:rofl:

Do you watch the games, dude? He's not remotely soft. He was running over mother****ers last week.

Taco John
11-30-2009, 03:48 PM
:rofl:

Do you watch the games, dude? He's not remotely soft. He was running over mother****ers last week.

Last week was an improvement to what we've seen in previous weeks, there's no doubt. But like I said, the consistency hasn't been there, and during our four game skid, he was either invisible or a liability.

watermock
11-30-2009, 03:48 PM
Also, Hillis is bulked up 20 pounds over his ideal weight.

rastaman
11-30-2009, 03:51 PM
:rofl:

Do you watch the games, dude? He's not remotely soft. He was running over mother****ers last week.

Moreno isn't soft as much as ineffective he is running out of an empty backfield. You put Moreno in the last 5 games running mostly from the I-formation with a lead blocking FB (Larsen) from a stretched zone blocking scheme, and Moreno-Larsen will remind you of TD-Griffin. Bet on It!:thumbsup:

watermock
11-30-2009, 03:54 PM
:rofl:

Do you watch the games, dude? He's not remotely soft. He was running over mother****ers last week.


The Giants 7 line isn't what it was, and Moreno had his best game BY FAR last week.

e finally showed some speed. Maybe his knee is finally good whih is good news. H wasn't running all that well earlier. Yeahj yeah, put Stephen Jackson behind Holstien and Clady.

Also, I think the move to Holstien opened up the left side fo us.

In fact, it's obvious.

rastaman
11-30-2009, 03:57 PM
Howard Griffith.

One of my favorite Broncos of all time.

McD would have put Howard Griffith on special teams as well.LOL

Bronco Yoda
11-30-2009, 04:09 PM
So, who do you guys think blocks better at this time... in this system?
Hillis or Moreno?

houghtam
11-30-2009, 04:35 PM
Pass blocking?

Moreno.

Moreno was a complete back at UGA, and I think he's progressing nicely.

Seriously, I've never seen such knob-slobbering over a guy like Hillis who had one great game and two decent ones over a year ago. Get over it, he's not gonna get playing time barring injury (just like last year). He was a flash in the pan, and we'd all be better off if these play Hillis threads disappeared from the world, much like the Twilight Saga.

Dean
11-30-2009, 04:42 PM
He needs to run behind a lead blocking FB out of the I-formation within a zone blocking scheme. Moreno running behind Larsen as a lead blocking FB would bring back memories of TD & Griffen.

. . . TD and Griffen , the smurf?

Popps
11-30-2009, 04:46 PM
Pass blocking?

Moreno.

Moreno was a complete back at UGA, and I think he's progressing nicely.

Seriously, I've never seen such knob-slobbering over a guy like Hillis who had one great game and two decent ones over a year ago. Get over it, he's not gonna get playing time barring injury (just like last year). He was a flash in the pan, and we'd all be better off if these play Hillis threads disappeared from the world, much like the Twilight Saga.

You, my friend... do not understand the depth of this conspiracy.

http://www.crimsonmirrors.org/conspiracy.jpg

Bronco Yoda
11-30-2009, 04:53 PM
Is this also coming from your top secret source?

Taco John
11-30-2009, 05:08 PM
I'm not quite sure I understand the whole "conspiracy" thing.

mhgaffney
11-30-2009, 05:10 PM
Moreno now has around 688 yards rushing.

He will break 1,000 yards his rookie season -- and could surpass 1100 yards.

I expect him to come on strong in the final games.

Taco John
11-30-2009, 05:16 PM
If he does, that would be great. I rarely expect a rookie to come on stronger in December than he was in October though.

Lev Vyvanse
11-30-2009, 05:18 PM
I'm not quite sure I understand the whole "conspiracy" thing.

I think all he is saying is do you trust Shanahan or McDaniels or Turner to evaluate who is better suited to carry the ball? If you answer yes to any of those three then STFU if not I can't help you.

GreatBronco16
11-30-2009, 06:34 PM
So is Hillis the best RB to not start a game this year in the NFL?;D

watermock
11-30-2009, 06:53 PM
Of course it was expected Moreno would get the carries as the #12 pick. He should till proven a bust.

Good grief...but when a stif like Jordan does in Hillis role....

Bronco Yoda
11-30-2009, 09:59 PM
So is Hillis the best RB to not start a game this year in the NFL?;D

No, but most people aren't saying that he should be starting but rather being used in the rotation.

strafen
11-30-2009, 10:33 PM
Yea, if he could just put some muscle on... he'd be O.K..

Poor little thing.


http://media.collegepublisher.com/media/paper871/stills/y5sp49j8.jpg

He's going to be a bust!
He's going to fumble at the same clip Cutler threw interceptions here, and most of you are going to categorize his fumbles based on why they happened in order to deviate attetion to something else rather than blaming the guy himself.
Sounds familiar?

Stop whoring this guy and even comparing him to Emmitt Smith? LOL!
Are you freakin' nuts?
The guy is too slow.

strafen
11-30-2009, 10:35 PM
No, but most people aren't saying that he should be starting but rather being used in the rotation.That's correct.
Hillis needs to be given a chance to help out anemic offense.
There are a lot of things this kid can do on the field that most of our current RB's can't do half as good...

houghtam
11-30-2009, 10:56 PM
He's going to be a bust!
He's going to fumble at the same clip Cutler threw interceptions here, and most of you are going to categorize his fumbles based on why they happened in order to deviate attetion to something else rather than blaming the guy himself.
Sounds familiar?

Stop whoring this guy and even comparing him to Emmitt Smith? LOL!
Are you freakin' nuts?
The guy is too slow.

Emmitt Smith was never considered a burner. He ran a 4.7 40. Knowshon ran a 4.6.

Kaylore
11-30-2009, 11:00 PM
And Moreno fumbles the ball and can't pickup the tough short yardage to convert 3rd downs. While you have Buckhalter running on gimpy knees and allows himself to be brought down with arm tackles.

Yet somehow according to your rationale Hillis is not worthy to get any playing time even during the 4 game losing streak when both Moreno and Buckhalter were not performing well either.

Yeah I hear you.

That means in practice Hillis is doing even worse.

It's funny seeing people like you assume you know what's best for the team when you aren't even at the facility. You probably really think that Hillis is awesome and just hasn't gotten a chance. He gets a chance every day in practice and since he doesn't play ST well and he doesn't remember the plays week to week they don't dress him.

watermock
12-01-2009, 01:20 AM
He seemed to know the TB position last year despite being a FB, including his pass routes. As a rookie...

Must of been the simple offense of Shanahan, huh....

What bullshiat.

DBroncos4life
12-01-2009, 01:42 AM
exactly.....this place could argue the importance of toilet paper

I'm always a big fan of having it around when I'm taking a ****.

watermock
12-01-2009, 01:47 AM
Simms, Burger and Law must be Gold leaf TP then.

rastaman
12-01-2009, 03:53 AM
Moreno now has around 688 yards rushing.

He will break 1,000 yards his rookie season -- and could surpass 1100 yards.

I expect him to come on strong in the final games.

Moreno will only come on strong if he runs out of a zone blocking
I - formation with a lead fullback blocking for him.

Denver already has the FB's to do so with Larsen and Hillis. Too bad McD is too blind and ego drivenly stubborn to realize this.

Beantown Bronco
12-01-2009, 03:54 AM
That's correct.
Hillis needs to be given a chance to help out anemic offense.
There are a lot of things this kid can do on the field that most of our current RB's can't do half as good...

This is your brain on drugs.

fontaine
12-01-2009, 03:59 AM
Anyone criticizing Moreno needs to go back through the last 4/5 games before the Giants and count how many negative plays were due to our OL or how many times, LBers and DL were in the backfield in lock step with Moreno.

Moreno has actually done very well in turning negative plays into 2/3 yard gains where he should rightly have been tackled in the backfield. This is probably the worst our OL has been run blocking since years ago when Nalen was put on IR after rupturing his biceps and Hamilton ended up starting at C.

At times it's been down right embarressing watching Polumbus trip over himself instead of blocking out DL/LBers, before that it was Hamilton getting shifted around easily and so on.

errand
12-01-2009, 05:45 AM
He's going to be a bust!
He's going to fumble at the same clip Cutler threw interceptions here, and most of you are going to categorize his fumbles based on why they happened in order to deviate attetion to something else rather than blaming the guy himself.
Sounds familiar?

Stop whoring this guy and even comparing him to Emmitt Smith? LOL!
Are you freakin' nuts?
The guy is too slow.

They said Emmitt Smith was too slow too....He's 5'11 217 lbs and ripped, and we hear how he's not big enough. It's to laugh. Now we hear you say he's too slow....I guess next we'll hear how he's not agile either huh?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFtszXrC0R0

errand
12-01-2009, 05:48 AM
Here's another one,against a pretty good team as well....


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46Zdkm-RAYo&feature=fvw

errand
12-01-2009, 05:52 AM
And here he is making plays that Hillis can only dream about making....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WuwREZcFaEc&feature=related

errand
12-01-2009, 01:59 PM
Sharpe played sparingly during his first two seasons in the NFL (1990-91). He didn't breakout at the tight end position until 1992, his third year in the league.

Ok, so why all the fuss about Hillis not playing in his 2nd year?

As far as Sharpe goes, he use to eat ourdefense alive in practice as the opposing team's TE. Our coaches told our defense not to get too upset when he torched them because "nobody else has a TE as good as Sharpe"

The point being is sharpe showed the coaching staff he had talent, and he earned more playing time as he developed.

jhat01
12-01-2009, 02:26 PM
Moreno will only come on strong if he runs out of a zone blocking
I - formation with a lead fullback blocking for him.

Denver already has the FB's to do so with Larsen and Hillis. Too bad McD is too blind and ego drivenly stubborn to realize this.

Wow you are a real gem. I'll take his ideas as a play caller and play designer over yours every day of the week and twice on Sunday. The kid is on his way to a damn good rookie season, your love for Hillis blinds you. I liked what Hillis did last year too but you have no idea what's going on at practice or in meetings...The "blind and ego drivenly stubborn" coach does..I'll take my chances and trust that he knows a little more about the team than you do.

Irish Stout
12-01-2009, 02:36 PM
here is a link of the actual SIGMA Test Doc:

http://www.hrd-rtp.com/hrtnfl/Final/Word%20Files/Hillis%20%20%20Peyton%20-%20FB_LFTXMSxLW.doc

He gets a 1... not good.

errand
12-01-2009, 02:36 PM
That's correct.
Hillis needs to be given a chance to help out anemic offense.
There are a lot of things this kid can do on the field that most of our current RB's can't do half as good...

Really?

What exactly can he do better than most of our RB's?

Break tackles?

Perhaps he can, but we've seen Moreno and Jordan steamroll people as well.

Catch passes?

Jordan has 158 career receptions.... Buckhalter has 109...Moreno is one of the better receiving RB's to come outta college the past few seasons.

Block?

If he was the best blocker, he'd be the starting FB, or at least would get more reps wouldn't you think?

Make defenders miss?

Sorry, but if you think Hillis is more agile and has better moves than Moreno or Buckhalter, then you've been sniffing his jock too long.

Big play potential?

For all the hype you heap on him, Hillis' career longest rush is 19 yards. Moreno has almost twice that as his.

Speed?

Moreno might not have had the fastest 40 time, but he definitely plays faster than he times....

I'm thinking you can't name even one thing he does better than the current crop we have....well except ride the pine.

errand
12-01-2009, 02:38 PM
He seemed to know the TB position last year despite being a FB, including his pass routes. As a rookie...

Must of been the simple offense of Shanahan, huh....

What bullshiat.

Great...maybe the Vikings will pick him up off waivers next season.

Irish Stout
12-01-2009, 02:55 PM
I found that link, but the only "Sigma" test I could find was Hillis' and the website is gone... where can you get other of these for other players?

Kaylore
12-01-2009, 03:03 PM
Moreno will only come on strong if he runs out of a zone blocking
I - formation with a lead fullback blocking for him.

Denver already has the FB's to do so with Larsen and Hillis. Too bad McD is too blind and ego drivenly stubborn to realize this.

I love these comments from bitter Cutler whores. "McDaniels is too arrogant to start Hillis." :rofl: How is benching a guy making McDaniels' ego better? If Hillis really was the awesome player you think, then how does not playing a supposedly good player make McDaniels look better? What is he gaining from doing that? He wants to win, and that more than anything else will make his reputation look good. He knows that. He's benched other rookies and veterans in favor of guys deeper on the depth chart to improve the team. McDaniels wants to win and doesn't care who he plays if they make the team better. So How is benching Hillis an ego move?

Answer: It's not. Hillis is benched because he's not smart enough to learn the offense. Rastaman is one of the bitter Cutler widows that hates McDaniels and therefore anything associated with him. He will attack every move that he makes, and anytime McDaniels benches or shows disapproval in a certain player he immediately likes them because McDaniels doesn't.

Archer81
12-01-2009, 03:16 PM
I love these comments from bitter Cutler whores. "McDaniels is too arrogant to start Hillis." :rofl: How is benching a guy making McDaniels' ego better? If Hillis really was the awesome player you think, then how does not playing a supposedly good player make McDaniels look better? What is he gaining from doing that? He wants to win, and that more than anything else will make his reputation look good. He knows that. He's benched other rookies and veterans in favor of guys deeper on the depth chart to improve the team. McDaniels wants to win and doesn't care who he plays if they make the team better. So How is benching Hillis an ego move?

Answer: It's not. Hillis is benched because he's not smart enough to learn the offense. Rastaman is one of the bitter Cutler widows that hates McDaniels and therefore anything associated with him. He will attack every move that he makes, and anytime McDaniels benches or shows disapproval in a certain player he immediately likes them because McDaniels doesn't.

Its my theory that Rasta is not a Bronco fan, and for some odd reason is gay for Hillis and Cutler...


:Broncos:

Bronco Yoda
12-01-2009, 03:36 PM
Why are some people getting so sensitive over the fact that others here want a Bronco player to see some playing time?

Who knows why he isn't really playing. NONE of us no the real story anyway.

vancejohnson82
12-01-2009, 03:50 PM
Why are some people getting so sensitive over the fact that others here want a Bronco player to see some playing time?

Who knows why he isn't really playing. NONE of us no the real story anyway.

because apparently the people sitting on the bench are there ONLY because McDaniels is an arrogant coach who holds vendettas against certing players for no reason

rastaman
12-01-2009, 03:53 PM
Wow you are a real gem. I'll take his ideas as a play caller and play designer over yours every day of the week and twice on Sunday. The kid is on his way to a damn good rookie season, your love for Hillis blinds you. I liked what Hillis did last year too but you have no idea what's going on at practice or in meetings...The "blind and ego drivenly stubborn" coach does..I'll take my chances and trust that he knows a little more about the team than you do.

Wow JHAT01 I had no idea you would follow McD into hell due to your loyalty and blind faith. Your small minded approach and buy is perfect coaching material that McD needs. You can never have too many loyalist.

But on a more serious note, surely you can see the benefits of Moreno running from the I-formation w/ a lead blocking FB.

Historically, running backs running in a single back-shot gun alignment have endured more injuries and seen their careers shortened due to the punishment they take. Whereas RB's who run from the I-formation with a lead blocking FB at least doesn't take nearly as much punishments which equals less propensity for injuries thus extending their careers.

But hey man if you are all for Moreno running the majority of time from a single backfield and taking unnecessary hits and punishment b/c he lacks a lead blocking FB and cutting his career short and inviting more injuries......more power TO YA!

One last point, the practice analogy or excuse as to why Hillis isn't getting playing time with the first team offense is a bit of a stretch! Not to pick on Orton but we all know how rough of time he was having picking up the new offense and he had bad practices as well. Yet Orton was slated as the starting QB despite he bad practices. I don't think McD values what Hillis brings to the table on "Any Given Sunday".

Hopefully before the season is over.....McD will relent and allow Hills to run some plays with the first team offense. Keeping Hillis on special teams is a waste of offensive talent. Just my opinion.

Bronco Yoda
12-01-2009, 04:06 PM
McD is still tinkering with the machine.

Sorry folks, but he does not have all the answers yet. And he'd be the first one to tell you this.

It's all a work in progress.

He's putting Moreno through all the paces to see what's what. He needs the experience and we need the evaluation. He's a top draft pick so he's a top priority. From a coaching standpoint it all makes perfect sense.

He trusts Jordan I guess. Whatever...

But from a fan stand point... I want to see someone who catches the ball in the flat, lowers the pads and smashes someone. I wan't our running game dictating. I want to see the chains move when really needed. That's just the way I like to see the running game. Others may like flashy or potential big plays every blue moon.

I'm a fan. I'm in the now. I'm not the coach building a team or evaluating my draft pick. I want to see some physical smash-mouth run-it-down-your-throat style..... now!

I want to see Sheff, BM & Hillis inside the redzone.

I want to see Sheff more... and thankfully we saw more last game.

I want to see Hillis wearing down the D.

I want to see Moreno in I formation to help him get some big plays.

I want naked cheerleaders!

jhat01
12-01-2009, 07:12 PM
Wow JHAT01 I had no idea you would follow McD into hell due to your loyalty and blind faith. Your small minded approach and buy is perfect coaching material that McD needs. You can never have too many loyalist.

Hopefully before the season is over.....McD will relent and allow Hills to run some plays with the first team offense. Keeping Hillis on special teams is a waste of offensive talent. Just my opinion.

See if you leave out all the McD hate stuff, the last two sentences are cool. That being said, you automatically jump and call me small minded, having "blind faith" but the fact of the matter is that I just think he knows more about the team than you do...that's all. I think the one with the ego problem is you.

houghtam
12-01-2009, 07:14 PM
i think the one with the ego problem is you.

pwnt.

Popps
12-01-2009, 07:39 PM
Why are some people getting so sensitive over the fact that others here want a Bronco player to see some playing time?

Who knows why he isn't really playing. NONE of us no the real story anyway.

I don't think anyone is upset because someone likes Hillis as a player. I think where people draw the line is when we start seeing bashing of Moreno, McDaniels, etc.

Plus, the people insisting that Hillis be inserted into a starter's role are just choosing to ignore so much data, info and circumstantial evidence that it becomes suspicious as to the motive.

On the upside, only a minute handful of people seem to be unable to connect all of these dots. So, while I love Hillis' physical talents, I'm also on board with reality. The reality is that Moreno is our future, and we're running the ball effectively when are IN games and can commit to the run.

strafen
12-01-2009, 08:01 PM
Why are some people getting so sensitive over the fact that others here want a Bronco player to see some playing time?

Who knows why he isn't really playing. NONE of us no the real story anyway.Thank you!!!
And that's what we're all after.
Hillis is yet to prove one way or another whether he's a liability or a big boost for our offense. We all can agree that he can be the latter.
That said, people were also freaking out -me included- when by similar disturbing circumstances we weren't seeing enough of Scheffler.
I remember hearing the same kind of senseless crap that Scheffler wasn't a fit for this offense, that we should trade him, or when was McDaniels going to trade Scheffler, or if Scheffler was next in the trading block.

Now, Scheffler has been getting more playing time and showing the same abilities to make plays as he did last season.
But not with Hillis. I guess Hillis was a fluke last year... :oyvey:

Getting the best players on the field is whjat this is all about.
"If" by a long stretch, what is being said of Hillis is true, then where is the coaching staff to do what they need to do in order to get a player with the talent of Hillis on the field?
He can't be that bad he's still on the team...

~Crash~
12-01-2009, 08:14 PM
Really?

What exactly can he do better than most of our RB's?

Break tackles?

Perhaps he can, but we've seen Moreno and Jordan steamroll people as well.

Catch passes?

Jordan has 158 career receptions.... Buckhalter has 109...Moreno is one of the better receiving RB's to come outta college the past few seasons.

Block?

If he was the best blocker, he'd be the starting FB, or at least would get more reps wouldn't you think?

Make defenders miss?

Sorry, but if you think Hillis is more agile and has better moves than Moreno or Buckhalter, then you've been sniffing his jock too long.

Big play potential?

For all the hype you heap on him, Hillis' career longest rush is 19 yards. Moreno has almost twice that as his.

Speed?

Moreno might not have had the fastest 40 time, but he definitely plays faster than he times....

I'm thinking you can't name even one thing he does better than the current crop we have....well except ride the pine.
Jordan:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl: you said that with a straight face right ....OMG

Popps
12-01-2009, 08:15 PM
I remember hearing the same kind of senseless crap that Scheffler wasn't a fit for this offense, that we should trade him, or when was McDaniels going to trade Scheffler, or if Scheffler was next in the trading block..

McDaniels never said Scheffler didn't fit the offense. He said exactly the opposite, in that he was excited to have that kind of weapon.

So, the analogy isn't remotely apt.

Beyond that, it's apparent that Scheffler was able to learn his assignments and execute them to a degree that earned him playing time.

In other words, McDaniels showed no bias, and put a Shanahan player on the field to help himself win.

When Hillis can execute his job properly, I'm sure he'll get more playing time, as well.

~Crash~
12-01-2009, 08:23 PM
Why are some people getting so sensitive over the fact that others here want a Bronco player to see some playing time?

Who knows why he isn't really playing. NONE of us no the real story anyway.

I agree I want the best for every bronco but there are some really crazy ass people on here saying bad things about Hills and Moreno ...

I can see nothing bad about having both on our team . I hope hills does start helping out more becase the guy is gold on 3rd down he always finds the sticks . He was money on 3rd down last year and he was money in college on 3rd down .

strafen
12-01-2009, 08:26 PM
McDaniels never said Scheffler didn't fit the offense. He said exactly the opposite, in that he was excited to have that kind of weapon.

So, the analogy isn't remotely apt.

Beyond that, it's apparent that Scheffler was able to learn his assignments and execute them to a degree that earned him playing time.

In other words, McDaniels showed no bias, and put a Shanahan player on the field to help himself win.

When Hillis can execute his job properly, I'm sure he'll get more playing time, as well.When did I say it was McDaniels who said Scheffler didn't fit our offense.
I was referring to the same clowns who are now undermining Hillis abilities to be a force on the field...

strafen
12-01-2009, 08:28 PM
Jordan:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl: you said that with a straight face right ....OMG

LMAO!!!
Yup, that's how far they go to try to make a point that is not there.
To even go as far as comparing Jordan to Hillis is when the guy lost any credibility for me to take him serious anymore... :thumbsup:

~Crash~
12-01-2009, 08:29 PM
oh and Errand save you breath on why larson is starting at FB it is because of how great he plays ST's now I am not saying he cannot block well, but I think it is more the way Larson plays ST's .

~Crash~
12-01-2009, 08:30 PM
LMAO!!!
Yup, that's how far they go to try to make a point that is not there.
To even go as far as comparing Jordan to Hillis is when the guy lost any credibility for me to take him serious anymore... :thumbsup:

if he was for real he is nuts.

Popps
12-01-2009, 08:33 PM
When did I say it was McDaniels who said Scheffler didn't fit our offense.
I was referring to the same clowns who are now undermining Hillis abilities to be a force on the field...

Clowns?

You mean, the people who are using two top offensive coaches as their measuring stick on Hillis' progress?

So, if you trust in Shanahan/McDaniels analysis of where Hillis should be in the depth chart, you're a "clown?"

But, if you're a guy on a message board that thinks you're smarter than those coaches... you're A-OK?



Tell you what, work out your problems with Shanahan and McDaniels. They're the coaches who clearly chose to make Hillis a back-up, not a starter.

Go tell them what "clowns" they are.


Or, prove the conspiracy. Take your pick.

Ray Finkle
12-01-2009, 08:54 PM
Clowns?

You mean, the people who are using two top offensive coaches as their measuring stick on Hillis' progress?

So, if you trust in Shanahan/McDaniels analysis of where Hillis should be in the depth chart, you're a "clown?"

But, if you're a guy on a message board that thinks you're smarter than those coaches... you're A-OK?



Tell you what, work out your problems with Shanahan and McDaniels. They're the coaches who clearly chose to make Hillis a back-up, not a starter.

Go tell them what "clowns" they are.


Or, prove the conspiracy. Take your pick.

well said.....I trust my sources over most of what is typed here....

houghtam
12-01-2009, 09:30 PM
When I was in grad school, they taught me a funny thing: do your research, THEN write your paper.

The running backs in question in 3rd down or goal-to-go situations:

Hillis - 10 rushes for 32 yards (3.2 yards per carry), 4 first downs (40% conversion rate), 2 TDs.

Moreno - 18 rushes for 64 yards (3.6 yards per carry), 10 first downs (56% conversion rate), 1 TD.

So much for Hillis being the more reliable third down and short yardage back.

strafen
12-01-2009, 10:09 PM
Clowns?

You mean, the people who are using two top offensive coaches as their measuring stick on Hillis' progress?

So, if you trust in Shanahan/McDaniels analysis of where Hillis should be in the depth chart, you're a "clown?"

But, if you're a guy on a message board that thinks you're smarter than those coaches... you're A-OK?



Tell you what, work out your problems with Shanahan and McDaniels. They're the coaches who clearly chose to make Hillis a back-up, not a starter.

Go tell them what "clowns" they are.


Or, prove the conspiracy. Take your pick.Hillis was never slated to be a starter by either coach.
Not that he couldn't be.
I think they have their own philosophy of who their type of RB should be.
Still, what I'm being adamant about is Hillis lack of play. Independently from whether he is or he's not starter material.
That's up for debate at another day. What we need to realize is what Hillis has brought to our offense since last year, what he can bring to our offense this year.
To have this guy rot on the sidelines is what's disturbing to me.
Why?
You guys keep coming up with reasons as to why he's not playing that nobody outside this forum has even heard of. That's the truth!

For all of us who have seen this guy play, and yes, that includes YOU, we're having a hard time buying what you're selling.

Hillis can play. Hillis is an impact player first and foremost on any day of the week.
You can't convince me that we're better off with Jordan, Moreno and even C-Buck on certain situations like goal-line, 3rd and short type of plays, or any play for that matter that Hillis wouldn't have a better chance to succeed.
I understand Moreno is our "future" back, but that's not reason to make believe that this guy is there yet.
He might be physically ripped and all, but he's still a soft player as you have certainly witnessed but refuse to acknowledge.
And when I and everybody else say "soft" is to describe his lack of toughness, he needs to be tough not only physically but mentally.

He's been one hit, and he's down type of runner.
Do you remember Hillis being like that?

strafen
12-01-2009, 10:22 PM
When I was in grad school, they taught me a funny thing: do your research, THEN write your paper.

The running backs in question in 3rd down or goal-to-go situations:

Hillis - 10 rushes for 32 yards (3.2 yards per carry), 4 first downs (40% conversion rate), 2 TDs.

Moreno - 18 rushes for 64 yards (3.6 yards per carry), 10 first downs (56% conversion rate), 1 TD.

So much for Hillis being the more reliable third down and short yardage back.Have you researched his catches conversions as well?
Not that I know it right off the top of my head, but he was certainly used in 3rd downs catching passes.

Remember, Hillis since last year had 72 rushing attempts and 6 Td's.
Moreno already has 161 rushing attempts 4 Td's and 4 fumbles. Not quite apples to apples comparison

Popps
12-01-2009, 10:36 PM
He might be physically ripped and all, but he's still a soft player as you have certainly witnessed but refuse to acknowledge.


I don't acknowledge things that aren't true.

You saying it doesn't make it so. I've watched him break tackles and run over guys all year. He doesn't have top-flight speed, and he's averaging well over 4 yards a carry. So, do the math. He's going THROUGH people. (And around them.)

Someone just destroyed your argument a couple posts back using statistics, anyway. (Then you switched subjects, of course.)

Again, I love Hillis' ability. I hope he earns more playing time. I'm sure when he can execute his job properly, he'll earn that playing time.

errand
12-02-2009, 05:59 AM
Jordan:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl: you said that with a straight face right ....OMG

I'm talking about over the course of his career bonehead....

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d809d5c0a/Pre-WK-1-LaMont-Jordan-highlights?campaign=ec0005

Jordan has been pretty much a battering ram on every team he's played for.

errand
12-02-2009, 06:13 AM
LMAO!!!
Yup, that's how far they go to try to make a point that is not there.
To even go as far as comparing Jordan to Hillis is when the guy lost any credibility for me to take him serious anymore... :thumbsup:

Really?

LaMont Jordan's career has turned out much better than Hillis' has.

He's put up the following numbers

892 attempts for 3,707 yards, a 4.2 career avg. with a longest of 61 yards and 28 TD's. He's also caught 158 passes for 1301 yards (8.2 avg.) and 3 TD's

That's 5,008 total yards

His best season was 2005 when he rushed for 1025 yards and caught 70 balls scoring 11 TD's. For his career Jordan has 9 fumbles total....losing 4 of them.

When Hillis plays 9 seasons...well hell, when Hillis plays 9 ****ing games, come talk to us then.

The MVPlaya
12-02-2009, 06:17 AM
Yeah - McDaniels is benching Hillis for conspiracy reasons... because he doesn't like Hillis. Even tho his goal is to win mother fuc.kin games, and ultimate goal is to win the SB, he will allow something dumb to happen like benching a player that should play because he hates him/conspiracy.

I wonder how some of you fuc.k-tards were raised.

The players that will give the team the best chance to win will play... what in your mind makes you think that he would do otherwise on PURPOSE?

errand
12-02-2009, 06:17 AM
oh and Errand save you breath on why larson is starting at FB it is because of how great he plays ST's now I am not saying he cannot block well, but I think it is more the way Larson plays ST's .

I think the reason he's starting FB is the same reason Hillis is not. Larsen outperforms Hillis in the coaches eyes.

The Joker
12-02-2009, 06:56 AM
His biggest problem is that he's not a particularly good lead blocker.

It's nice to have a versatile player who can do lots of things at the full back position, but the number one job a FB has to be good at is lead blocking and that's where Hillis struggles.

It's like having a WR who can break tackles and throw brilliant downfield passes on trick plays but isn't very good at actually getting open and catching the football. It's hard to put a guy like that on the field very often.

He's a good player to have for depth purposes. Can run the ball pretty decently, can catch passes, can do a bit of lead blocking. But he's not great at any one job, and McDaniels seems very role-orientated and can probably just see someone who is a better player at any given role that he needs.

Moreno is a better running back.

Larsen is a better lead blocker.

Scheffler is a better big, physical pass catching mismatch.

The only role I can see he might be best suited to is short yardage, and I think Moreno is getting better at that all the time and it's something which will ultimately be a real strength of his.

Hillis will probably go on to be a useful if unspectacular player one day, I doubt it'll be in Denver though.

strafen
12-02-2009, 09:21 AM
Someone just destroyed your argument a couple posts back using statistics, anyway. (Then you switched subjects, of course.)

.Destroyed my argument with statistics?
You only see what you want to see.
He was using stats that are not equal on both sides to really tell the story.
You can't compare Hillis 72 career rushing attempts to Morenos 161 career rushing attempts to make a case when not all things are being equal.
If I was going to prorate Hillis stats of 72 Rushing attempts, yardage and TD's scored to Morenos actual numbers, then you have to assume that Hillis would have close to 1200 yrds, 11-12 TD's with the same attempts and games played as where Moreno stands right now, no?
That would be a more fair scenario to compare their numbers, and not when one has carried the ball and played more games (started) than the other one.
Come on, you can do better than that!

rastaman
12-02-2009, 09:45 AM
When I was in grad school, they taught me a funny thing: do your research, THEN write your paper.

The running backs in question in 3rd down or goal-to-go situations:

Hillis - 10 rushes for 32 yards (3.2 yards per carry), 4 first downs (40% conversion rate), 2 TDs.

Moreno - 18 rushes for 64 yards (3.6 yards per carry), 10 first downs (56% conversion rate), 1 TD.

So much for Hillis being the more reliable third down and short yardage back.

Are those Hillis's stats from the 2008 season? If so you're comparing apples and oranges.

Moreno is getting all the starts in 2009 and Hillis hasn't been given the same opportunity's.

Thats not a fair comparison.

rastaman
12-02-2009, 09:52 AM
His biggest problem is that he's not a particularly good lead blocker.

It's nice to have a versatile player who can do lots of things at the full back position, but the number one job a FB has to be good at is lead blocking and that's where Hillis struggles.

It's like having a WR who can break tackles and throw brilliant downfield passes on trick plays but isn't very good at actually getting open and catching the football. It's hard to put a guy like that on the field very often.

He's a good player to have for depth purposes. Can run the ball pretty decently, can catch passes, can do a bit of lead blocking. But he's not great at any one job, and McDaniels seems very role-orientated and can probably just see someone who is a better player at any given role that he needs.

Moreno is a better running back.

Larsen is a better lead blocker.

Scheffler is a better big, physical pass catching mismatch.

The only role I can see he might be best suited to is short yardage, and I think Moreno is getting better at that all the time and it's something which will ultimately be a real strength of his.

Hillis will probably go on to be a useful if unspectacular player one day, I doubt it'll be in Denver though.

Agreed. Hillis in McDaniel's system does not have a future as far as getting a chance to contribute with the first team offense. Now if Hilli's is satisfied with the special teams roles McD has in stored for him, then Peyton should remain in Denver.

However, if Hillis is unhappy as a special teams player, at the end of the season he should go to McD and ask for his out-right release. Hillis if hasn't already done so needs to get his agent to put out feelers for other teams who maybe interested in his talent.

Its nothing personal....McD has his players he wants to use with the first team offense and Peyton isn't one of them. So its time for Hillis to move on for better opportunities.

strafen
12-02-2009, 10:17 AM
Agreed. Hillis in McDaniel's system does not have a future as far as getting a chance to contribute with the first team offense. Now if Hilli's is satisfied with the special teams roles McD has in stored for him, then Peyton should remain in Denver.

However, if Hillis is unhappy as a special teams player, at the end of the season he should go to McD and ask for his out-right release. Hillis if hasn't already done so needs to get his agent to put out feelers for other teams who maybe interested in his talent.

Its nothing personal....McD has his players he wants to use with the first team offense and Peyton isn't one of them. So its time for Hillis to move on for better opportunities.

Well put.
Everybody and anybody outside this forum knows Hillis could play on another team and be very productive. He will impact offenses and would force opposing defenses to make adjustment to cover for him. He's that kind of player....

TonyR
12-02-2009, 10:27 AM
Thats not a fair comparison.

It might not be completely fair but it's really the only yardstick we have. And if this comparison isn't fair you also need to throw out the TD comparison which only suggests that Hillis has had more goal line and deep red zone opportunities.

Also, many are saying Hillis is the better third down and goal line option. At the very least this comparison raises legit doubt about that.

And for the record, I'm all for Hillis getting more touches. But I trust the coaches on this.

Popps
12-02-2009, 10:35 AM
Destroyed my argument with statistics?
You only see what you want to see.
He was using stats that are not equal on both sides to really tell the story.
You can't compare Hillis 72 career rushing attempts to Morenos 161 career rushing attempts to make a case when not all things are being equal.
If I was going to prorate Hillis stats of 72 Rushing attempts, yardage and TD's scored to Morenos actual numbers, then you have to assume that Hillis would have close to 1200 yrds, 11-12 TD's with the same attempts and games played as where Moreno stands right now, no?
That would be a more fair scenario to compare their numbers, and not when one has carried the ball and played more games (started) than the other one.
Come on, you can do better than that!

No.

You were the one that made a statement about Hillis being a better short-yardage runner.

That was proven to be factually incorrect.

So, like the last time you were proven incorrect, you're changing the subject. Now you want to project forward?

You were wrong. Just admit it. There is no statistical evidence for Hillis being a better short-yardage runner.



The funny thing about all of this is... I was a HUGE Hillis guy last season when Shanahan kept trying to insert slobs like Selvin Young and Cooked Crack into our lineup. (In other words, he was the best of what we had at that time.)

But, he's likely not the best we have now, or he'd be starting. If you haven't learned that about McDaniels, you're simply not paying attention. He's benched his own guys, made his own draft picks inactive and started Shanahan guys if they're the best option.

So, once again... a logical mind looks for a logical explanation. Why does Hillis APPEAR to be a great RB, and yet two great coaches attempt to avoid using him as a starter?

A logical mind assumes that when there is enough smoke, there is probably fire... and Hillis work-ethic, coachability and mental preparedness has been questioned since he left school.



Hey, if Hillis starts getting the rock and blows up, no one will be happier than me. I'd love to have another hammer to pound teams with. The difference is, I understand that Moreno is a more complete back... and he's our future, and I also understand that our coaching staff sees these guys first hand every day. There's no conspiracy here.

When Hillis earns carries as a starting RB, he'll get those carries. Until then, he'll remain a STs guy and a back-up.

Popps
12-02-2009, 10:36 AM
Well put.
Everybody and anybody outside this forum knows Hillis could play on another team and be very productive.

Prove it.

Show me any proof of that.


Show me proof that the collective NFL world believes that Hillis is an NFL starter.

You have it ass-backwards. If anything, this forum has a tendency to highly overvalue and overrate Broncos players. There's no where in the world Hillis will get as much respect as he does on this forum.

Are you related to him?

Popps
12-02-2009, 10:37 AM
So its time for Hillis to move on for better opportunities.

Why are you so obsessed with having our players "move on" to other teams?

That seems to be your MO. You never talk about the team... you only talk about the players and how they should leave Denver.


All kidding aside, are you a fan of the team in any sense?

chex
12-02-2009, 10:53 AM
A Peyton Hillis thread with 400+ posts?

rastaman
12-02-2009, 11:07 AM
Why are you so obsessed with having our players "move on" to other teams?

That seems to be your MO. You never talk about the team... you only talk about the players and how they should leave Denver.


All kidding aside, are you a fan of the team in any sense?

All kidding aside....yes I'm a fan. I want to see Hillis show case his talents why he's still "YOUNG" and in the prime years of his career! If its not with Denver....Oh well, the Broncos had their opportunity. I don't want to see Hillis spend his prime years playing special teams. Hillis doesn't help Denver win games on special teams. Hillis will help contribute to Denver winning games if he's on the field every Sunday providing his unique talents that he brings to the table.

Having Hillis platoon on special teams is just a waste of talent. Now just b/c McD says thats where Hillis is the most useful that doesn't exactly make it so, especially if Hillis see's it differently.

Besides your NFL career is way too short and one play away from a career ending injury and you have short window of opportunity to land the lucurrative contract to set yourself up financially. Playing special teams is not the way to financial security.

As a result, it would behoove Hillis to get to a team that will allow him to show case his value, contributions, and talent with any team that will allow him ample opportunity to play with the first team offense b/c afterall thats where the big bucks are paid.

Remember Popps, nothing is etched in stone and players career in the NFL are short. And to a great degree too short to put the team over financial security. Players have got to get their money while they still provide a valuble need and during a time their most productive.

houghtam
12-02-2009, 11:17 AM
All kidding aside....yes I'm a fan. I want to see Hillis show case his talents why he's still "YOUNG" and in the prime years of his career! If its not with Denver....Oh well, the Broncos had their opportunity. I don't want to see Hillis spend his prime years playing special teams. Hillis doesn't help Denver win games on special teams. Hillis will help contribute to Denver winning games if he's on the field every Sunday providing his unique talents that he brings to the table.

Having Hillis platoon on special teams is just a waste of talent. Now just b/c McD says thats where Hillis is the most useful that doesn't exactly make it so, especially if Hillis see's it differently.

Besides your NFL career is way too short and one play away from a career ending injury and you have short window of opportunity to land the lucurrative contract to set yourself up financially. Playing special teams is not the way to financial security.

As a result, it would behoove Hillis to get to a team that will allow him to show case his value, contributions, and talent with any team that will allow him ample opportunity to play with the first team offense b/c afterall thats where the big bucks are paid.

Remember Popps, nothing is etched in stone and players career in the NFL are short. And to a great degree too short to put the team over financial security. Players have got to get their money while they still provide a valuble need and during a time their most productive.

If Hillis were that much of a talent, either the Broncos would not be sitting him;

OR

Another team would have traded for him.

He would not be languishing on the 4th string if he were really as good as some of you are making him out to be.

He's a big white RB that made a few plays last year, nothing more, nothing less.

rastaman
12-02-2009, 11:20 AM
Really?

LaMont Jordan's career has turned out much better than Hillis' has.

He's put up the following numbers

892 attempts for 3,707 yards, a 4.2 career avg. with a longest of 61 yards and 28 TD's. He's also caught 158 passes for 1301 yards (8.2 avg.) and 3 TD's

That's 5,008 total yards

His best season was 2005 when he rushed for 1025 yards and caught 70 balls scoring 11 TD's. For his career Jordan has 9 fumbles total....losing 4 of them.

When Hillis plays 9 seasons...well hell, when Hillis plays 9 ****ing games, come talk to us then.

Why bother come talking to you! It should be a mute point at the conclusion of the season anyway. Because Hillis should ask McDaniel's for his out right release from Denver for a lack of opportunity and playing time with the first team offense.

Could you blame Hillis? Peyton gave it the old college try putting team ahead of himself and yet didn't get ample opportunity to compete with playing time with the first team offense. Besides the Denver backfield is way too crowded with the players McD wants to play and Peyton is not one of players McD wants to use as RB.

Should Petyon go to McD and ask for his release to latch on with a team that can use Hillis on their first team offense; McD should respectfully grant Hillis his wish. Give the man a chance to become a star elsewhere instead of forcing a 7th round pick to languish on special teams.

rastaman
12-02-2009, 11:25 AM
If Hillis were that much of a talent, either the Broncos would not be sitting him;

OR

Another team would have traded for him.

He would not be languishing on the 4th string if he were really as good as some of you are making him out to be.

He's a big white RB that made a few plays last year, nothing more, nothing less.

Well hopefully Peyton and his agent at the end of the season will prove you wrong. There are teams in the NFL that could use Hilli's talents. Its up to his agent to shop Peyton around the league.

Besides, Peyton having been drafted in the 7th round and languishing 4th on Denver's depth chart actually makes him a bargin pickup with another team to pull a trade for who may have a different vision of what athletic tangibles Hillis could bring to their respective teams.

houghtam
12-02-2009, 11:37 AM
Well hopefully Peyton and his agent at the end of the season will prove you wrong. There are teams in the NFL that could use Hilli's talents. Its up to his agent to shop Peyton around the league.

Besides, Peyton having been drafted in the 7th round and languishing 4th on Denver's depth chart actually makes him a bargin pickup with another team to pull a trade for who may have a different vision of what athletic tangibles Hillis could bring to their respective teams.

Okay, you keep dreaming.

In the meantime, Popps' point stands until he's proven wrong.

Something's holding Peyton back from starting, and it's not McD or any other coach.

Beantown Bronco
12-02-2009, 11:40 AM
All kidding aside....yes I'm a fan. I want to see Hillis show case his talents why he's still "YOUNG" and in the prime years of his career! If its not with Denver....Oh well, the Broncos had their opportunity. I don't want to see Hillis spend his prime years playing special teams. Hillis doesn't help Denver win games on special teams. Hillis will help contribute to Denver winning games if he's on the field every Sunday providing his unique talents that he brings to the table.

Having Hillis platoon on special teams is just a waste of talent. Now just b/c McD says thats where Hillis is the most useful that doesn't exactly make it so, especially if Hillis see's it differently.

Besides your NFL career is way too short and one play away from a career ending injury and you have short window of opportunity to land the lucurrative contract to set yourself up financially. Playing special teams is not the way to financial security.

As a result, it would behoove Hillis to get to a team that will allow him to show case his value, contributions, and talent with any team that will allow him ample opportunity to play with the first team offense b/c afterall thats where the big bucks are paid.

Remember Popps, nothing is etched in stone and players career in the NFL are short. And to a great degree too short to put the team over financial security. Players have got to get their money while they still provide a valuble need and during a time their most productive.

This is one area where we differ. I want all guys wearing the Broncos jersey to play like probowlers every week. However, once they are not wearing that jersey, I only want them to play like probowlers when they are playing the Raiders, Chiefs or Chargers. They can proceed to suck balls every other week.

Don't get me wrong. If the player seems like a good person and I like them, I will wish them well in life.......but not on the football field.

jhat01
12-02-2009, 12:03 PM
If Hillis were that much of a talent, either the Broncos would not be sitting him;

OR

Another team would have traded for him.

He would not be languishing on the 4th string if he were really as good as some of you are making him out to be.

He's a big white RB that made a few plays last year, nothing more, nothing less.

Not to semi-change the subject or anything...but speaking of big white runningbacks, Toby Gerhart is a stud..It will be cool to see if his talent carries over into the NFL.

watermock
12-02-2009, 12:55 PM
The Broncos needed a franchise back and drafted for 1, of course he's going to get the carries, or McD looks the fool.

Moreno has all the tools but spped, and his MCL looks healed looking at his work last week. The insertion of Holstein made a huge diffence in run blocking on the left side too.

As far as Hillis, he proved smart enough to move from FB to TB last year, and frankly, running backs aren't drafted on intelligence anway. Look at Larry Johnson.

I would say maybe stubborn like Mongo. Anyway, we might need him in the future bacause Buck has a long history of knee problems and Jordan sucks.

It's McD's team and while I personally think his draft sucked salty balls, give he had 3 #1s, and I don't how many theatrics he call pull on the sidelines before it becomes an embarrassment, anyway:


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cutthemdown
12-02-2009, 01:17 PM
All kidding aside....yes I'm a fan. I want to see Hillis show case his talents why he's still "YOUNG" and in the prime years of his career! If its not with Denver....Oh well, the Broncos had their opportunity. I don't want to see Hillis spend his prime years playing special teams. Hillis doesn't help Denver win games on special teams. Hillis will help contribute to Denver winning games if he's on the field every Sunday providing his unique talents that he brings to the table.

Having Hillis platoon on special teams is just a waste of talent. Now just b/c McD says thats where Hillis is the most useful that doesn't exactly make it so, especially if Hillis see's it differently.

Besides your NFL career is way too short and one play away from a career ending injury and you have short window of opportunity to land the lucurrative contract to set yourself up financially. Playing special teams is not the way to financial security.

As a result, it would behoove Hillis to get to a team that will allow him to show case his value, contributions, and talent with any team that will allow him ample opportunity to play with the first team offense b/c afterall thats where the big bucks are paid.

Remember Popps, nothing is etched in stone and players career in the NFL are short. And to a great degree too short to put the team over financial security. Players have got to get their money while they still provide a valuble need and during a time their most productive.

FB don't get much action in FA to tell you the truth. If he leaves Denver I would predict he bounces around and plays for 3-4 teams before he is done. Mostly as a bkup fill in big back, blocker, and special teams guy. He is what he is.

If he made plays in practice he would be out there trust me, that's how football works, even in HS and College. The players who makes plays in practice, make them in games.

You really think Hillis kicking ass and is some stud and mcdaniels just is ignorant on how to use him?

Seriously think about that one.

cutthemdown
12-02-2009, 01:20 PM
Mock pointing out Jordan being pretty much a role player, Bucky an injury question, Hillis obviously not a coach fav is interesting.

That all points to a late round RB selection or some vet to be brought in again in the next offseason.

What about Lendale White? He could be a decent compliment to a guy like Moreno. Chances are he looks for a starting gig, but with a down yr will he get that?

houghtam
12-02-2009, 02:06 PM
Mock pointing out Jordan being pretty much a role player, Bucky an injury question, Hillis obviously not a coach fav is interesting.

That all points to a late round RB selection or some vet to be brought in again in the next offseason.

What about Lendale White? He could be a decent compliment to a guy like Moreno. Chances are he looks for a starting gig, but with a down yr will he get that?

He's a fatty with no post-collegiate game. Like JaMarcus.

What about Chester Taylor or Willie Parker? Doubtful that either Minnesota or Pittsburgh will pay these guys starter money, but neither will we. And likely that both teams will be in a better position for a SB run next year than we are, so there goes the "chance to win" angle. Guess I answered my own question about these two.

If McDaniels goes after a vet, we might have to settle for someone with an injury history trying to prove themselves: Cadillac Williams? Jerious Norwood? Leon Washington? None of those guys are as much of a threat receiving as Taylor or Parker. Hell, if NE lets him get away, who would be surprised if McD brings in Kevin Faulk?

watermock
12-02-2009, 02:31 PM
After Ty Law and Booger, Kevin Faulk would not surprise me one bit.

rastaman
12-02-2009, 02:34 PM
Okay, you keep dreaming.

In the meantime, Popps' point stands until he's proven wrong.

Something's holding Peyton back from starting, and it's not McD or any other coach.

Okay Company Shill. Here's to hoping Hillis proves both you, Pops and McDaniels wrong.

By the way how much could Denver look to gain in compensation should a team signs Hillis. Remember McD only wants players here that buys into his system. Should Hillis adamantly insist on leaving Denver for more opportunities?

If JFMC can get cut........why can't Hillis ask for his release?

Remember.....special team players are a dime a dozen. I'm sure all you Hillis doubters wouldn't mind a lowly drafted 7th round FB playing in another NFL city in 2010!!!:sunshine:

watermock
12-02-2009, 02:40 PM
There are plenty of speed backs out of college.

Someone like
Sproles or Hester would do wonders.

Frankly, our draft was piss poor, considering the picks we got for Cutler.

watermock
12-02-2009, 02:41 PM
Bobby Knox wold look good right now.

rastaman
12-02-2009, 02:42 PM
FB don't get much action in FA to tell you the truth. If he leaves Denver I would predict he bounces around and plays for 3-4 teams before he is done. Mostly as a bkup fill in big back, blocker, and special teams guy. He is what he is.

If he made plays in practice he would be out there trust me, that's how football works, even in HS and College. The players who makes plays in practice, make them in games.

You really think Hillis kicking ass and is some stud and mcdaniels just is ignorant on how to use him?

Seriously think about that one.

I'm banking Hillis just needs a fresh start with a new NFL team. I'm sure he would much rather have the opportunity to show another team his offensive wares that don't need him to play special teams.

McD will always throw the ST card at Peyton while tangling a chance/hope that he would give Hillis a shot. Point is, if I were Hillis I wouldn't trust that promise and respectfully visit with McD in the off season, tell him thanks for opportunity to play special teams but its time to move on. McD should respect Hillis's request and allow Hillis to take his chances with picking up another team.

sixtimeseight
12-02-2009, 02:42 PM
A Peyton Hillis thread with 400+ posts?

Even though he's a scrub backup RB, he's a white scrub backup RB which makes people strangely attached to him. You didn't see threads like this for other scrub backups like Ron Dayne, I wonder why.

Actually, Ron Dayne is a pretty good comparison for Hillis, although Dayne accomplished much more in his career than Hillis so far.

jhat01
12-02-2009, 02:43 PM
There are plenty of speed backs out of college.

Someone like
Sproles or Hester would do wonders.

Frankly, our draft was piss poor, considering the picks we got for Cutler.

Frankly, how can you call it piss poor? It hasn't even been a whole season...You are off base on this.

cutthemdown
12-02-2009, 02:45 PM
I'm banking Hillis just needs a fresh start with a new NFL team. I'm sure he would much rather have the opportunity to show another team his offensive wares that don't need him to play special teams.

McD will always throw the ST card at Peyton while tangling a chance/hope that he would give Hillis a shot. Point is, if I were Hillis I wouldn't trust that promise and respectfully visit with McD in the off season, tell him thanks for opportunity to play special teams but its time to move on. McD should respect Hillis's request and allow Hillis to take his chances with picking up another team.

Then why didn't Hillis get drafted higher. What has happened since that will make those same teams now feel he should be a FA target, or trade target?

cutthemdown
12-02-2009, 02:48 PM
Also Rasta you can't let every player on special teams go because you want to give them a chance to start somewhere. It's called depth.

What make's Hillis anymore special then other guys on practice squad, on special teams, being bkups? Why the crusade for him and not other players not getting a chance to start.

Or is it you with your infinite scouting abilities have analyzed the Broncos and you have discovered Hillis is the one talent not being properly utilized?

watermock
12-02-2009, 02:50 PM
Even though he's a scrub backup RB, he's a white scrub backup RB which makes people strangely attached to him. You didn't see threads like this for other scrub backups like Ron Dayne, I wonder why.

Actually, Ron Dayne is a pretty good comparison for Hillis, although Dayne accomplished much more in his career than Hillis so far.

Comparing Dayne to Hillis is just stupid.

Dayne was drafted in the first round, didn't have a clue on blocking, talk about dumb, and had zero recieving skills.

rastaman
12-02-2009, 02:50 PM
This is one area where we differ. I want all guys wearing the Broncos jersey to play like probowlers every week. However, once they are not wearing that jersey, I only want them to play like probowlers when they are playing the Raiders, Chiefs or Chargers. They can proceed to suck balls every other week.

Don't get me wrong. If the player seems like a good person and I like them, I will wish them well in life.......but not on the football field.

I know we agree to disagree....thats cool. On the other hand, Peyton is such a player of great character and professionalism. He's just had the misfortune of getting caught up in the numbers game at the RB position and he's the odd man out. McD is going with the RB's he believes in and right now Hillis isn't high on McD's list of keeper RB's.

It would be selfish of McD not to honor and respect Hillis request to leave for better opportunities elsewhere in NFL due to his standup act character

Bronco Yoda
12-02-2009, 02:55 PM
Even though he's a scrub backup RB, he's a white scrub backup RB which makes people strangely attached to him. You didn't see threads like this for other scrub backups like Ron Dayne, I wonder why.

Actually, Ron Dayne is a pretty good comparison for Hillis, although Dayne accomplished much more in his career than Hillis so far.

The only person making a big deal out of the guys skin color is you. Interesting....

rastaman
12-02-2009, 02:56 PM
Also Rasta you can't let every player on special teams go because you want to give them a chance to start somewhere. It's called depth.

What make's Hillis anymore special then other guys on practice squad, on special teams, being bkups? Why the crusade for him and not other players not getting a chance to start.

Or is it you with your infinite scouting abilities have analyzed the Broncos and you have discovered Hillis is the one talent not being properly utilized?

Special team depth is at a premium. You can find ST personnel from the draft and the waiver wire. If Hillis decides he's wasting his career away as a special teams player and yet realizes he doesn't have future as one of MD's RBBC; why can't Hillis ask for his release to seek opportunities with teams that don't see him as a special teams player. There are teams out there that would be willing to allow him to compete at RB. Why risk a career ending injury playing special teams?

azbroncfan
12-02-2009, 05:26 PM
Special team depth is at a premium. You can find ST personnel from the draft and the waiver wire. If Hillis decides he's wasting his career away as a special teams player and yet realizes he doesn't have future as one of MD's RBBC; why can't Hillis ask for his release to seek opportunities with teams that don't see him as a special teams player. There are teams out there that would be willing to allow him to compete at RB. Why risk a career ending injury playing special teams?

You should become his agent.

sixtimeseight
12-02-2009, 05:33 PM
The only person making a big deal out of the guys skin color is you. Interesting....

Shut the **** up.

DomCasual
12-02-2009, 05:35 PM
Shut the **** up.

Dude, does your mom like you? I've yet to find a single person on here who does. Maybe it's, you know, you - not every single person with whom you interact?

Just food for thought.

watermock
12-02-2009, 05:37 PM
He white so he MUST be stupid....

houghtam
12-02-2009, 06:26 PM
I don't think anyone's making the assertion that white = stupid. I don't think anyone's even implying that he can't be any good because he's white.

I do, however, think there might be something to the idea that, since he's a white player at a position with so little white representation, it's that much harder for some Broncos fans to let him go. I think it adds to the image of a "tough-nosed, blue collar" player that reminds them of the good old days of Larry Czonka (of Czonk-a-strator fame) and John Riggins.

I'm sure no one would be willing to admit this even if it were true, but I have just as hard a time wrapping my mind around how some people are clinging to a player who didn't really do much in the grand scheme of things last year, as I do figuring out how anyone could believe some mass-conspiracy is taking place to bury said player on the depth chart.

strafen
12-02-2009, 06:59 PM
Okay, you keep dreaming.

In the meantime, Popps' point stands until he's proven wrong.

Something's holding Peyton back from starting, and it's not McD or any other coach.

Popps points were at one point the same as my very own points that he's refuting right now.
More on that in a sec...
The other thing about Hillis having a hard time digesting the new system derived from a rumor Popps heard.
Ever since Popps heard that rumor, he has been adamant in wanting to spread that rumor as if it was the Gospel.
He's trying to pass that rumor as fact for quite sometime now, and in EVERY single chance he gets.

Don't believe me Popps was saying what he's now been refuting?
Don't believe the rumors about Hillis was something he's tried to make stick?

Read below his own comments about those issues and you make the call:

Agree...

Like I posted earlier, one of my complaints with McD thus far is that we seem to be under-utilizing Hills as a ball-carrier. In the Seattle game, we DID have him in as a runner in the 2nd series.

Obviously, Moreno is going to likely be the guy when he returns, but I just think that Josh, like Shanny is making it all to complicated with Hillis. Yes, he's an athlete. Yes, he can do lots of things... but none of them as well as just pounding the rock on 1st and 2nd down, imo.

We'll see what happens. The cream tends to rise to the top in these situations, and if Shanny and Josh didn't make him the starter... there may be things we're not seeing, as fans.

Still love the guy and was stoked to see him score/salute the fans.
Not quite was he's been saying lately, is it?

More...

I've been saying this since the start of camp. I'm not sure Hillis has to be "the starter," but McDaniels is going to realize that he has no choice but to give Hillis more carries. If you look at how we started the game, Hillis was blocking, running routes, etc. In other words, we were being cute with him. Shanahan tried the same thing for a while until he realized that you just hand this guy the ball and let him run.

McDaniels will realize this, and Hillis will be splitting carries with someone, I'd suspect. I don't know that he'll be named a starter, but he very well may be the most effective back on our roster, until Moreno knows the system and is healthy. Even then, those two may be a nice compliment.


I understand that the inclination is to move Hillis all over the place because he's athletic. But, he's an extremely effective 1st down running back. There's no need to outsmart ourselves with this guy. Give him the ****ing rock 15 times a game, minimum. Hmm!

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Watch the highlight reel above at 1:00 and check those few runs. It's runs like those that separate him from bruiser-types people want to compare him to. This isn't Mike Alstott, folks. Hillis has legitimate starting RB vision and moves. He's big, so he's not going to look like Barry Sanders when he runs, but this isn't a plodding back. He's got excellent body-control and awareness. He uses his blockers (even if he has to knock them over) and doesn't force things when they're not there.
Again, I think it's all just great that he can catch, block, kick, cook, paint and any other skills he may have. But, I want to see this guy lining up for at least 1/3rd of our carries. After watching him last year, there is absolutely no acceptable excuse for not giving this guy 10-15 carries a game, or more.

If Moreno is what I think he is... he and Hillis could be a brutally effective combo, much like Johnson/White in Tenn. Pepper in Buckhalter on third downs and for change of pace, and we'll run the ball down team's throats.

Not sure what Popps is or if he has forgotten what he has said here. I'm sure he will come up with an ingenious way to explain those comments away.

Now, on how the rumors started... (Read below):
Again, there has been one very unsubstantiated rumor that said Hillis was struggling with the system. I have no idea what truth there could be to that. However, I did read one scouting report on Hillis coming out of school that said he was a guy who might try to get by on physical talent alone... and might not take properly to coaching.

Again, that's just one rumor and one scouting report. Doesn't mean it's true. But, at a certain point... I guess you have to wonder. Shanahan did everything he could to keep from starting Hillis, and now McDaniels seems to be following suit.

In situations like these, I just assume there must be something we aren't seeing. Hillis looks like a much better starting option to me than Buckhalter or Jordan. The fact that he's third string behind them despite already being on the roster is just a bit odd.

Maybe it's no big deal, and he'll get his fair share of reps. But, you have to wonder why a couple of smart offensive coaches have avoided making him a primary back.Very unsubstantiated rumor, huh?

More:
My biggest complaint with McD thus far is that he's just not giving this guy the rock, more. Honestly, Buckhalter is what he is. I like him. But to me, Hillis represents a real problem for opposing defenses as a RB.

But, Shanahan didn't make him a starter until he had to, and McD apparently doesn't want to, either. Those are two very smart football men. They must have their reasons.

I will say this, I've heard ONE rumor that he was having trouble with the new system. Just a rumor. But, if that were the case, wouldn't just running the ball be easier than using him at 13 different positions like McD wants to?

We'll see what happens over time. I still think he should be our LeDale White, only a more versatile, refined version.Again still a rumor that to this day he wants to keep passing as a fact

And finally, another contradicting post.
Hillis was drafted for what coaches saw in him in College. Which I'm sure was great play-making abilities.
Now Mr. Popps is saying that despite the same great play-making abilities of Hillis last year, is what McDaniels -an offensive genius- is basing his decision not to play Hillis in the same way Shanny decided not to make him a starter. What is it?

~Crash~
12-02-2009, 07:00 PM
If Hillis were that much of a talent, either the Broncos would not be sitting him;

OR

Another team would have traded for him.

He would not be languishing on the 4th string if he were really as good as some of you are making him out to be.

He's a big white RB that made a few plays last year, nothing more, nothing less.

just last year hmmm that sure is strange statment but nice try ask LSU fANS ABOUT HILLS

Taco John
12-02-2009, 07:33 PM
I do, however, think there might be something to the idea that, since he's a white player at a position with so little white representation, it's that much harder for some Broncos fans to let him go.



I think this is one of the dumbest premises that I've seen on this forum since I first started it in the year 2000. People like Hillis, not because he looked like a rare talent when he had the ball in his hands, but because he's a white guy.

I can't help but lose respect for people who brainlessly paint other people with this type of racism.

Taco John
12-02-2009, 07:36 PM
That last post by dragster was pretty great. Fun to see Popps blowing whichever way the wind is blowing. I can't wait to see how he does the fun house mirror act on his own stuff.

This place is great.

watermock
12-02-2009, 07:51 PM
Wasn't this the guy that thought 4-12 would be a good rebuilding year?

AND Hillis should be our TB?

Spitting out kids like Travis Henry doesn't make more than...

theAPAOps5
12-02-2009, 08:00 PM
And finally, another contradicting post.
Hillis was drafted for what coaches saw in him in College. Which I'm sure was great play-making abilities.
Now Mr. Popps is saying that despite the same great play-making abilities of Hillis last year, is what McDaniels -an offensive genius- is basing his decision not to play Hillis in the same way Shanny decided not to make him a starter. What is it?

I see your point and its a very valid and well stated one. Hillis is one of those guys you WANT to root for. Its why the Mane has focused in on him and why not he is a lunch pail guy who plays football the right way.

Problem is Hillis kind of shot himself in the foot with mental errors and wasted opportunities. You earn your place on the team and in the rotation in camp. While Hillis didn't ruin his chances he also didn't create them during camp.

Then the first few weeks of the season he made some big mistakes. When you can only carry 53 men on the roster and only dress 47 for a game you have to carry the players who you think will win you a game. Hillis had errors on Special Teams and in the offense its reasonable for the team to not play him.

However, McD obviously sees something in him because he has kept him on the roster and has praised him publicly. So count me as one who isn't faulting McD for keeping Hillis on the sidelines because McD has FAR exceeded my expectations but I also appreciate that McD recognizes that if Hillis can put it all together he could really add another dimension to the team.

Its very rare that you have a player who you absolutely want to succeed. Hillis is one of those.

listopencil
12-02-2009, 08:09 PM
I don't remember if I posted in this thread and I'm not digging through 430+ posts to find out.

Hillis was an absolute stud late last year. A play maker when we desperately need one. He drove the offense with his running skills. The kid was just incredible. Going into this last off season there was a rumor that he wasn't going to be kept, I remember responding that if McD got rid of Hillis then he was a ****ing moron, or something like that.

This year he looks lost. I don't know what his problem is. It's easy to say that it's McD's fault for changing the system. That may be true. It's easy to say that Hillis might lack the mental ability to grasp what is asked of him, since we know that he practiced several positions. That may be true. It's also easy to say that Orton's "weak arm" has let the D cheat up and clog the running lanes. That also may be true.

What I know is true, what I have seen with my own eyes, is that Hillis has the potential to be very, very good. Right now the Broncos are not getting that out of him. It would benefit our team if they can find a way to do it. He proved that last year-and the people who claim that he didn't are, in my mind, either stupid or foolish.

Oh yeah, before I forget, love him because he's white? Horse****. Mindless horse****. Ignorant racism.

strafen
12-02-2009, 08:36 PM
I see your point and its a very valid and well stated one. Hillis is one of those guys you WANT to root for. Its why the Mane has focused in on him and why not he is a lunch pail guy who plays football the right way.

Problem is Hillis kind of shot himself in the foot with mental errors and wasted opportunities. You earn your place on the team and in the rotation in camp. While Hillis didn't ruin his chances he also didn't create them during camp.

Then the first few weeks of the season he made some big mistakes. When you can only carry 53 men on the roster and only dress 47 for a game you have to carry the players who you think will win you a game. Hillis had errors on Special Teams and in the offense its reasonable for the team to not play him.

However, McD obviously sees something in him because he has kept him on the roster and has praised him publicly. So count me as one who isn't faulting McD for keeping Hillis on the sidelines because McD has FAR exceeded my expectations but I also appreciate that McD recognizes that if Hillis can put it all together he could really add another dimension to the team.

Its very rare that you have a player who you absolutely want to succeed. Hillis is one of those.This is where I see your theory, and your point of view as well as other's as having way too many holes...
For starters, Hillis is versatile enough and humble enough to do what coaches ask him to do, even if it is sitting on the bench and not b**** about it.
Yet, the guy has been put in a position to do -like I've said- things he's asked to do that may not be in his best interest.
4 carries this season doesn't in my mind qualify as "opportunities", especially when those 4 carries have been spread out in a span of 6 games!

Special teams may or may not be one of his greatest attributes, yet we're degrading the guy for mental errors in that department.
Mental errors can be corrected. We all here have witnessed Mcdaniels getting on Orton's case during a game for making mental errors, yet you don't see Orton sitting on the bench.
Bottom line is, mental errors are coachable, physical tendencies to fumble the ball can be corrected to a certain degree, but not eliminated.

The whole thing reeks double-standard no matter how you slice it.
Hillis has only carried the ball 4 times, and scored 1 touchdown, but we're focusing on mental errors in just 4 carries to make a definite assessment that there's got to be something wrong with the guy?
In the meantime the people who have now been handled the running game duties to; Moreno, Buckhalter and Jordan have a combined 7 fumbles and 5 TD's

Take a moment to click on the video of Hillis highlights last year. The video link 4-5 posts above...

watermock
12-02-2009, 09:05 PM
This is the same idiot that said 4 wins was fine, Hillis should be our primary back and we should draft front 7 on the first day.

Then he said screw BM.

In a perverse sort of way,

Cutler is gone, and no deal is inplace for 2010.

No matter to Mr.Moron.

"just win the mother****ing game

BigPlayShay
12-02-2009, 10:13 PM
The whole thing reeks double-standard no matter how you slice it.
Hillis has only carried the ball 4 times, and scored 1 touchdown, but we're focusing on mental errors in just 4 carries to make a definite assessment that there's got to be something wrong with the guy?

You, nor no one else on this board has any idea how many mental mistakes Hillis could be making on Special Teams, and more importantly in practice and meeting rooms. So, if you want to blame McDaniels for his lack of playing time, you may as well throw Bobby T and Mike Priefer on the blame train as well.

Taco John
12-02-2009, 10:17 PM
You, nor no one else on this board has any idea how many mental mistakes Hillis could be making on Special Teams...

You're right about that, but what I do know is what Hillis looks like when he's running THROUGH a 250 lb. linebacker with the ball in his hands.

Killericon
12-02-2009, 10:19 PM
I've said it before and I'll say it again; It's Mike Bell alll over again. When he's cut, people on here will inexplicably celebrate, he'll bounce around for a while then find huge success someplace else.

Popps
12-02-2009, 10:23 PM
Again still a rumor that to this day he wants to keep passing as a fact

And finally, another contradicting post.
.

Again, for anyone with a grade school or above reading/comprehension level, this isn't contradictory at all.

I love Hillis' talents. He was certainly the best back we had LAST season.

His talent is not the discussion we're having.

The discussion we're having is that two great offensive coaches see him as a back-up or role-player, not a starter. Follow this up with MULTIPLE rumors INCLUDING THE ATTACHED SCOUTING REPORT written BEFORE HE WAS DRAFTED that speculate he has work-ethic and/or coachability problems... and you may be able to do some simple math and assume that there are issues we're not seeing.

As I've said repeatedly, you're claiming there is a conspiracy.

Prove it.

If there's a conspiracy, prove it. Because if he was the best option, he'd be starting.

He's not.

So, the onus is on you... not the rest of the logical-thinking world.

BigPlayShay
12-02-2009, 10:24 PM
You're right about that, but what I do know is what Hillis looks like when he's running THROUGH a 250 lb. linebacker with the ball in his hands.

Me too. Man, I would love to see him get more carries, but I just can't subscribe to all the conspiracy theories on this board that Hillis is not playing more because McD is stubborn. There is is a reason that Hillis is not seeing the field. I wish I knew the reasons why, and I am sure most fans do too, but I am going to trust the coach that has blown my expectations for this team out of the water.

BigPlayShay
12-02-2009, 10:26 PM
I've said it before and I'll say it again; It's Mike Bell alll over again. When he's cut, people on here will inexplicably celebrate, he'll bounce around for a while then find huge success someplace else.

I think maybe he'll have more of a Reuben Droughns type career.

strafen
12-02-2009, 10:26 PM
You, nor no one else on this board has any idea how many mental mistakes Hillis could be making on Special Teams, and more importantly in practice and meeting rooms. So, if you want to blame McDaniels for his lack of playing time, you may as well throw Bobby T and Mike Priefer on the blame train as well.I'm yet to blame anybody that I can recall. I don't know where you're getting that from.

That being said. If I have to put the blame on somebody would be that IF the allegations being thrown around here were true, then the whole coaching staff is to blame.
You don't have a talent like Hillis and let him on an island to figure out his own demons.
Again, I'm going with the assumption that all of these speculations and rumors have any credibility.
Otherwise, my question still remains...why is Hillis not playing?
Do you know the answer?
That's all I want to figure out...

Popps
12-02-2009, 10:30 PM
You don't have a talent like Hillis and let him on an island to figure out his own demons.
Again, I'm going with the assumption that all of these speculations and rumors have any credibility.
Otherwise, my question still remains...why is Hillis not playing?
Do you know the answer?
That's all I want to figure out...

Again, you do the simple math...

-Extensive speculation that he's got problems picking up the system and dealing with coaches
-Two great coaches made him a back-up

Even more so, the fact that he IS apparently so talented and still sitting tells you something. He's either...

A. Not as talented as we think.

or

B. A guy who has major problems doing his job on a day to day basis.


That's it. It's simple football math. As someone else said, if you've played the game... you know how these things go. You've seen these kinds of players.

It's not rocket science. He's not performing as well as the guys around him.

strafen
12-02-2009, 10:41 PM
Again, for anyone with a grade school or above reading/comprehension level, this isn't contradictory at all.

I love Hillis' talents. He was certainly the best back we had LAST season.

His talent is not the discussion we're having.

The discussion we're having is that two great offensive coaches see him as a back-up or role-player, not a starter. Follow this up with MULTIPLE rumors INCLUDING THE ATTACHED SCOUTING REPORT written BEFORE HE WAS DRAFTED that speculate he has work-ethic and/or coachability problems... and you may be able to do some simple math and assume that there are issues we're not seeing.

As I've said repeatedly, you're claiming there is a conspiracy.

Prove it.

If there's a conspiracy, prove it. Because if he was the best option, he'd be starting.

He's not.

So, the onus is on you... not the rest of the logical-thinking world.What conspiracy are you talking about?
All I've asked so far is why is the guy not playing.
You have provided in more than one occasion that the rumors you've heard/read are the reason, and you have clamped onto that idea like a pitbull on a Poodles neck
So what conspiracy am I alleging here?
The fact is McDaniels wants Moreno-Cbuck-Jordan to be his men lose, win, or draw.
You can call it conspiracy? If so, then that's your prove right there, I call it reality, even if the rest of the logical-thinking world thinks otherwise ;)

In my eyes, he's the best option. He's been proven, he may not be the first option on every play, but he's damned the best option in a lot of situations we've had that we could have used him for sure.
In fact, Jordan should not be taking any snaps in front of Hillis.
As you stated in your previous posts, Hillis and Moreno offered the best 1-2 punch not necessarily in that order.
Why are you now back-pedaling?

sixtimeseight
12-02-2009, 10:48 PM
Dude, does your mom like you? I've yet to find a single person on here who does. Maybe it's, you know, you - not every single person with whom you interact?

Just food for thought.

ummm... who the **** are you?

azbroncfan
12-02-2009, 10:49 PM
http://www.orangemane.com/BB/misc.php?do=whoposted&t=87093

There should be enough of these to figure out why Peyton isn't playing.

strafen
12-02-2009, 10:52 PM
Again, you do the simple math...

-Extensive speculation that he's got problems picking up the system and dealing with coaches
-Two great coaches made him a back-up

Even more so, the fact that he IS apparently so talented and still sitting tells you something. He's either...

A. Not as talented as we think.

or

B. A guy who has major problems doing his job on a day to day basis.


That's it. It's simple football math. As someone else said, if you've played the game... you know how these things go. You've seen these kinds of players.

It's not rocket science. He's not performing as well as the guys around him.What round was he drafted in?
What makes you think a later round FB should be a starter?
If we had drafted him to be a RB even in the 6-7th round, then I can see by his own effort that he would be a starter ala Clinton Portis, but Shanahan drafted his RB he envisioned as his potential starter, and not a FB out of college.
We happened to discover what Hillis could do on a Sunday by default, not for what he did in practice, nor for what he did in TC or pre-season either, didn't we?

A. Not as talented as we think.
Not as talented as we think, or not as talented as we've seen?
I tend to believe what I see more than what I think...

B. A guy who has major problems doing his job on a day to day basis.
Does day-to-day basis include Sundays?
That's all it matters, that's all he cares to be accountable for; his plays on Sundays.
The guy has had 4 carries in 6 games. Are you kiddin' me?

strafen
12-02-2009, 11:01 PM
http://www.orangemane.com/BB/misc.php?do=whoposted&t=87093

There should be enough of these to figure out why Peyton isn't playing.

That's funny man.
I didn't realized I've posted that many times on this single thread.
Still it's a valid argument, and as long as cool heads prevail, it will fun to see once the truth comes out who was closer to the truth.
I still think the answer to all of this dilemma lies on the performance of Hillis if given enough carries to make his case. Until then, we'd keep debating... :thumbsup:

Popps
12-02-2009, 11:11 PM
What round was he drafted in?
What makes you think a later round FB should be a starter?


You're claiming he's a starter at this point, not me. I like him, but Moreno is our future. So, as long as we've got two productive backs, I'm not sweating it.


Does day-to-day basis include Sundays?
That's all it matters, that's all he cares to be accountable for; his plays on Sundays.The guy has had 4 carries in 6 games. Are you kiddin' me?

Again, you'll have to take it up with Josh McDaniels and Mike Shanahan who didn't give him reps as a starting tailbacks until absolutely necessary.

There's a reason. I'm not saying I know what it is, but it's not coincidence, at this point. McD knows an offensive talent when he sees one. So does Shanahan. McD sees him at practice every day.

I'll give you a hint... he's not sitting on the bench because he's out-performing other guys in practice.

SoCalBronco
12-03-2009, 12:09 AM
Again, for anyone with a grade school or above reading/comprehension level, this isn't contradictory at all.

I love Hillis' talents. He was certainly the best back we had LAST season.

His talent is not the discussion we're having.

The discussion we're having is that two great offensive coaches see him as a back-up or role-player, not a starter. Follow this up with MULTIPLE rumors INCLUDING THE ATTACHED SCOUTING REPORT written BEFORE HE WAS DRAFTED that speculate he has work-ethic and/or coachability problems... and you may be able to do some simple math and assume that there are issues we're not seeing.

As I've said repeatedly, you're claiming there is a conspiracy.

Prove it.

If there's a conspiracy, prove it. Because if he was the best option, he'd be starting.

He's not.

So, the onus is on you... not the rest of the logical-thinking world.

Popps, there's some other things here. It's not that everyone thinks its a conspiracy that Hillis isn't starting. You've noted that "if he were hte best option, he'd be starting". Fair enough. But the idea isn't that Hillis should be starting at HB. It's that he should be out there at least some of the time at HB and probably almost all of the time at FB. It is very strange that he not getting ANY time, anywhere. There are a host of possible explanations:

A. He's not that good: A very weak explanation. We have all seen first hand that he can play. Not only can he run over people, he is also a weapon out of the backfield. As far back as training camp, McD himself affirmed that he had the best hands on the team (as a reciever). Nor can it be claimed that he was a one (or two) game wonder. We saw his skills in live action for many weeks last year. He simply didn't forget how to play football or lose his skills. This explanation holds no water (and I'm not saying you believe that...you've noted a number of times how well he played). The argument that he didn't start in college is also a non-starter. Given that he was playing in the same backfield as Darren McFadden and Felix Jones, it is testament to Hillis's talent that he got any time at all, much less all the rushing attempts he did get and all the passes he had thrown his way (I believe he was the leading reciever on the team his final season). You've also postulated that because Shanny did not start him until he needed to, it somehow goes to show that we didn't think he was all that. Shanny has a long history of starting some back finally in Week X that turns out to be the best back that season. That's what happened with TD, with Gary, with Sarge, etc.

B. He has comprehension problems in terms of grasping assignments: This is also unlikely. I think we can take it as an article of faith that Mike Shanahan's offense was also very complex and for Hillis to master both the HB and FB positions should prove that he can handle the responsibilities in an NFL backfield. Keep in mind that I'm not saying that this proves he is a system fit for McDaniels scheme...that's another question altogether. The basic question here is simply functional intelligence and he's proven that he can hack tough NFL schemes.

C. He's uncoachable and/or doesn't get along with people. The evidence is rather scant, here. The main point here is that scouting report you referenced. But its also been noted in several circles (I think lex pointed this out) that he was badmouthed by Houston Nutt arguably unfairly and that's probably where the scouts got their info from. Hillis himself said right after the draft that he would have never fell to the 7th round unless Nutt had went out of his way to trash him. The question isn't whether one person felt he was bad, its whether this feeling was shared by others. It seems that Hillis is well liked in the team's lockerroom from various past comments in the papers. I don't recall anything ever being mentioned last year about work ethic issues or anything of the sort. It's almost as if we have this single person...Houston Nutt on one side and everyone else on the other side.

None of these are well reasoned. So what is it? For starters, he's fumbled a good deal this season which is a no-no for Josh (understandably). But I grant you that this alone doesn't explain everything, because other players have fumbled and seen the field again in subsequent games. I don't believe any of the above three explanations hold water, but it could be that he's just not a good system fit. Again, this doesn't mean he can't understand it...he can....its just that he doesn't fit the certain schemes being run. That might be because they prefer having a 3rd WR on the field as opposed to a 2nd back, or it could be for other reasons. It just seems to me that that would be a better explanation than any of the above 3. What's the solution? Well...he's obviously got skills. If we're not going to use him for whatever reason it is (or reasons), it would be only rational to trade him to get some value out of it. That kind of bothers me in the sense that I enjoy seeing him play and I KNOW he's a baller that is a weapon for us....but if he doesn't fit somehow and he doesn't get time, we've got to get a return on the asset, right?

Taco John
12-03-2009, 12:28 AM
Again, for anyone with a grade school or above reading/comprehension level, this isn't contradictory at all.

I love Hillis' talents. He was certainly the best back we had LAST season.

His talent is not the discussion we're having.

The discussion we're having is that two great offensive coaches see him as a back-up or role-player, not a starter. Follow this up with MULTIPLE rumors INCLUDING THE ATTACHED SCOUTING REPORT written BEFORE HE WAS DRAFTED that speculate he has work-ethic and/or coachability problems... and you may be able to do some simple math and assume that there are issues we're not seeing.

As I've said repeatedly, you're claiming there is a conspiracy.

Prove it.

If there's a conspiracy, prove it. Because if he was the best option, he'd be starting.

He's not.

So, the onus is on you... not the rest of the logical-thinking world.


It's fourth and one on the goal line, and the next play determines whether we advance to the playoffs, or stay home for another season. Moreno and Buckhalter are out with injuries.

Do you:

A. Give the ball to Lamont Jordan.

B. Give the ball to Peyton Hillis.


I'm curious what this so-called "logical-thinking" world would do.

Call me crazy, but I think this scenario is a 10 out of 10 time no-brainer.

Taco John
12-03-2009, 12:29 AM
Also, what's with this goofy conspiracy talk? I don't get how this boils down to a conspiracy. You use the word "conspiracy" in such a way that it doesn't appear that you know what the word means.

Taco John
12-03-2009, 12:33 AM
Also, I have to say that it's pretty disingenuous to say Shanahan didn't use Hillis as a tailback until absolutely necessary. He was drafted to be a full back, not a tail back. Nobody, and I mean NOBODY expected Hillis to EVER get playing time as a tail back until we had a dozen or so injuries and he was pressed into service and brought a spark to this team that had EVERY LAST FAN ON THIS FORUM frothing at the mouth for more.

But, what do I expect from the boards funhouse mirror but to generate a bunch of discussion with warped takes and twisted history.

I love this place.

Taco John
12-03-2009, 12:35 AM
But seriously though - and I'm out for the night - Hillis or Jordan on 4th and the season?

Whose hands are you putting the ball into Mr. Logic?

Popps
12-03-2009, 12:37 AM
Also, what's with this goofy conspiracy talk? I don't get how this boils down to a conspiracy. You use the word "conspiracy" in such a way that it doesn't appear that you know what the word means.

Sure, Taco. I'll help you to understand...

The implication is that Josh McDaniels and Mike Shanahan chose to bench the most talented RB on the roster for a reason we're not being given.

Of course, there are many obvious conclusions a logical, rational person could draw from all of this. But, a few posters seem bent on indicating something more sinister.

The rest of us have simply asked for proof. If McDaniels is purposely hurting his team, and knowingly benching the more talented RB... we're just asking for information to support that. Because we've certainly got plenty of circumstantial evidence to support that this is just a routine football decision.

There's been talk of Hillis being benched because he was a "Shanahan guy."
That talk has been adequately eliminated with a few simple bits of factual evidence.

So, again... Hillis has had 4 carries all season. If he's the most talented back on the roster, why can't he win a job? The implication has been that this is something deeper than simple football reasoning.

So, if that's the case.. simple... prove it.

Taco John
12-03-2009, 12:39 AM
So the conspiracy is between Mike Shanahan and Josh McDaniels?

That's a really wierd take.

So answer the question... Jordan or Hillis on fourth and the season. Which one are you giving the ball to?

Taco John
12-03-2009, 12:41 AM
Wait! I want to see how warped this fun house mirror gets...

Do I believe that Mike Shanahan and Josh McDaniels are secret partners in a CONSPIRACY if I would choose Hillis 10 out of 10 times over Jordan!?

That would be cool! Are there badges and a secret handshake?

Popps
12-03-2009, 12:43 AM
Also, I have to say that it's pretty disingenuous to say Shanahan didn't use Hillis as a tailback until absolutely necessary. He was drafted to be a full back, not a tail back. Nobody, and I mean NOBODY expected Hillis to EVER get playing time as a tail back .

Hillis ran for 2600 yards in high school, and 1000 yards and 23 TDs in college.


Taco, you can rest assured that Mike Shanahan (the guy who found Terrell Davis, Clinton Portis and made stars of Mike Anderson and Olandis Gary) and Bobby Turner knew full-well what they were getting when they drafted Hillis.

His reputation in college was not remotely that of a pure fullback, rather as a versatile player who average something like 80 all-purpose yards per game, despite being surrounded by NFL caliber RBs.


So, let's not pretend that Shanahan/Turner just blindly picked this guy thinking he was a throwback, blockhead FB. They knew what they were drafting.

Yet, they chose to promote Cooked Crack to the roster from the practice squad before finally making the right choice and having Hillis run the ball full-time.

Popps
12-03-2009, 12:45 AM
So the conspiracy is between Mike Shanahan and Josh McDaniels?

That's a really wierd take.

So answer the question... Jordan or Hillis on fourth and the season. Which one are you giving the ball to?

Wow, you're having trouble tonight, huh? Or, it's the deliberately obtuse Taco routine.


I'm not the one claiming the conspiracy, Taco.

I think there are simple football reasons for what's happening. I've played the game. I've seen this. I've seen talented players who couldn't make it into a starting line-up for one reason or another. You see it in every sport, at every level.

So, once again... and pay attention.. I AM NOT THE ONE claiming this is a conspiracy.

I think this is all very simple.

Taco John
12-03-2009, 12:51 AM
Hillis ran for 2600 yards in high school, and 1000 yards and 23 TDs in college.


Taco, you can rest assured that Mike Shanahan (the guy who found Terrell Davis, Clinton Portis and made stars of Mike Anderson and Olandis Gary) and Bobby Turner knew full-well what they were getting when they drafted Hillis.

His reputation in college was not remotely that of a pure fullback, rather as a versatile player who average something like 80 all-purpose yards per game, despite being surrounded by NFL caliber RBs.


So, let's not pretend that Shanahan/Turner just blindly picked this guy thinking he was a throwback, blockhead FB. They knew what they were drafting.

Yet, they chose to promote Cooked Crack to the roster from the practice squad before finally making the right choice and having Hillis run the ball full-time.


I hardly think that Shanahan and Turner drafted Hillis in the seventh round to be a tail back based on what he did in HIGH SCHOOL! Hilarious!

I think it's *MUCH* more likely that Shanahan saw Hillis as a throwback to Howard Griffith, and was trying to achieve the same thing with him, and - you know - logically used him as a tailback when he was the last man standing.

And Boyd never saw the field over Hillis, so I'm not sure how your reference to him pertains other than to use the association to implicate Hillis. But it's an empty implication because Boyd didn't see a single carry. He just got promoted off the practice squad because of all the injuries we faced, and that promotion didn't come until week 15 AFTER Hillis got injured - so it's actually pretty embarassing that you're using Cory Boyd to make any point at all.

Taco John
12-03-2009, 12:54 AM
Wow, you're having trouble tonight, huh? Or, it's the deliberately obtuse Taco routine.


I'm not the one claiming the conspiracy, Taco.

I think there are simple football reasons for what's happening. I've played the game. I've seen this. I've seen talented players who couldn't make it into a starting line-up for one reason or another. You see it in every sport, at every level.

So, once again... and pay attention.. I AM NOT THE ONE claiming this is a conspiracy.

I think this is all very simple.


So who are the folks here who are claiming that Shanahan and McDaniels are in a CONSPIRACY? You're the only one I keep seeing using the "conspiracy" so you must know. Is there a quote you can reference? Or, more likely, you're doing the fun house mirror act like you just did with Boyd and are getting carried away with the rhetoric?

Popps
12-03-2009, 12:56 AM
I hardly think that Shanahan and Turner drafted Hillis in the seventh round to be a tail back based on what he did in HIGH SCHOOL!

Oh, of course not. I'll read my post again, but I'm fairly sure I didn't say that.

Let me double-check and get back to you.

However, I am 100% positive that scouting of college players goes back to high school and prep play. (Pre-college rankings, etc.) I mean, that's football 101 stuff. I wouldn't expect you to be on board.


I think it's *MUCH* more likely that Shanahan saw Hillis as a throwback to Howard Griffith, and was trying to achieve the same thing with him, and - you know - logically used him as a tailback when he was the last man standing.

Uh huh.

So, two of the best running back scouts in pro football couldn't look at Hillis' ample amount of college carries and see that he could run the ball?

Shanny found TD in the 6th, but had NO idea Hillis could run the ball, huh?

I
And Boyd never saw the field over Hillis, so I'm not sure how your reference to him pertains other than to use the association to implicate Hillis. But it's an empty implication because Boyd didn't see a single carry. He just got promoted off the practice squad because of all the injuries we faced, and that promotion didn't come until week 15 AFTER Hillis got injured - so it's actually pretty embarassing that you're using Cory Boyd to make any point at all.

Of course, the cooked crack reference is somewhat tongue-in-cheek, but Shanahan DID use every possible option until finally starting Hillis, a choice you yourself credited me with calling for before he actually did it last season.


Again, I love Hillis. No problem with the guy. I just see things for what they are. If he was able to perform as a starting RB... he'd be one.

Taco John
12-03-2009, 12:57 AM
But I noticed that you still haven't answered my question...

It's fourth and 1 on the goal line and the entire season is at stake. A touchdown wins the game. Coming up short means going home. Buckhalter and Moreno are injured.

Whose hands are you going to put the ball in?

A. Jordan

or

B. Hillis


I can tell you who I would pick 10 out of 10 times.

Popps
12-03-2009, 12:59 AM
So who are the folks here who are claiming that Shanahan and McDaniels are in a CONSPIRACY? You're the only one I keep seeing using the "conspiracy" so you must know. Is there a quote you can reference? Or, more likely, you're doing the fun house mirror act like you just did with Boyd and are getting carried away with the rhetoric?

Those who claim that either....

A. Hillis is being benched because he's a "Shanahan guy."

or

B. Hillis is clearly more talented than our starting RB, and McDaniels and Shanahan just don't (didn't) understand.


You have to be a fool or wear a tin-foil hat to believe either.

The guy has problems of some sort.

Popps
12-03-2009, 01:01 AM
But I noticed that you still haven't answered my question...

It's fourth and 1 on the goal line and the entire season is at stake. A touchdown wins the game. Coming up short means going home. Buckhalter and Moreno are injured.

Whose hands are you going to put the ball in?

A. Jordan

or

B. Hillis


I can tell you who I would pick 10 out of 10 times.



Well, I'm not sure why Jordan has come up so much in conversation.

How many carries has he had? My cooked crack reference was at least partially a joke. Are you honestly implying that Jordan has been an intricate part of our offense?

Oh, and I'm 100% fine with Moreno or Hillis getting goal-line carries. In fact, I'd love to see Hillis getting more short-yardage carries.

Again, you're falling into the same nonsense the other goofball fell into. This isn't an argument of "do I think Hillis is talented."

The conversation (and thread) revolved around why he's not on the field, which is clearly based on reasoning that goes beyond his physical talent, whether people choose to believe that or not.

cutthemdown
12-03-2009, 01:03 AM
But I noticed that you still haven't answered my question...

It's fourth and 1 on the goal line and the entire season is at stake. A touchdown wins the game. Coming up short means going home. Buckhalter and Moreno are injured.

Whose hands are you going to put the ball in?

A. Jordan

or

B. Hillis


I can tell you who I would pick 10 out of 10 times.


I tried explaining this before, here it goes again. Jordan has only like 3-4 fumbles his whole career. He really just doesn't fumble. I think his role on the team was a guy who would be a bkup and not fumble if the depth got so bad he had to play a lot.

Hillis we have seen is not that good holding onto to the ball. He has what 2-3 fumbles already. Thats a career for Jordan.

Taco John
12-03-2009, 01:05 AM
Oh
So, two of the best running back scouts in pro football couldn't look at Hillis' ample amount of college carries and see that he could run the ball?

Of course they saw he could run the ball. Howard Griffith got some of the most productive carries this franchise has ever seen (not to mention receptions). But Shanahan wasn't going to use him if TD went down. He had other tail backs for that. I think it's nuts to believe that Shanahan and Turner drafted a 250 lb. full back expecting him to come in and play tail back.

But let me get this straight though... you're saying Shanahan and Turner KEPT Hillis, our best back on the field last year, from running the ball until they absolutely had to, despite the fact that they knew he was some High School All Star? Sounds an awful lot like a CONSPIRACY to me! (*queue the dramatic music*)

Silly stuff...

I'm sure I'm really stupid and all, and I'm about to find out about it in your next post. Looking forward to it.

cutthemdown
12-03-2009, 01:06 AM
Moreno should get the goal line carries so he learns how to score in the NFL. There are a lot of tricks to learn and it takes awhile. Knowing when to lower head an go, knowing when to make a move, or dive over the top. Some of that comes with experience, some will come from better blocking, but it will come I have faith.

No way this coaching staff isn't going to improve players. Mcdaniels assembled a great staff and kept some of the previous coaches that had done well. I think all our rookies from this yr will be better players next yr. OLB/DE and Corner are tough positions. IMO Ayers and Smith could both make huge leaps in the offseason. They worked hard and have contributed here and there. RB's usually catch of faster and that has been true in this case. Moreno has shown some flashes but also rookie mistakes. I do think though he could be a 300 carry back for Broncos for like 4-5 yrs at least.

Popps
12-03-2009, 01:07 AM
I tried explaining this before, here it goes again. Jordan has only like 3-4 fumbles his whole career. He really just doesn't fumble. I think his role on the team was a guy who would be a bkup and not fumble if the depth got so bad he had to play a lot.

Hillis we have seen is not that good holding onto to the ball. He has what 2-3 fumbles already. Thats a career for Jordan.

I think Hillis only had 1 fumble. Then again, that was on 4 carries. (Odd, because the same crowd seems to be trashing Moreno for 4 fumbles, one which wasn't.)

Yea, if you're a guy who's (allegedly) not cutting it in practice... and then you come into a game and drop a ball on 4 carries, and miss some special teams assignments, a guy like McDaniels might not take kindly to that.

Taco John
12-03-2009, 01:08 AM
Well, I'm not sure why Jordan has come up so much in conversation.

How many carries has he had? My cooked crack reference was at least partially a joke. Are you honestly implying that Jordan has been an intricate part of our offense?

Oh, and I'm 100% fine with Moreno or Hillis getting goal-line carries. In fact, I'd love to see Hillis getting more short-yardage carries.

Again, you're falling into the same nonsense the other goofball fell into. This isn't an argument of "do I think Hillis is talented."

The conversation (and thread) revolved around why he's not on the field, which is clearly based on reasoning that goes beyond his physical talent, whether people choose to believe that or not.


Wow!

So you're just flat not going to answer the question!

Wow!

The reason I brought Jordan up was because he's had 20 carries. God I wish Hillis had even been given that kind of opportunity.

But wow. I can't believe you won't even answer the question without equivocating. You should at least take cutthemdown's angle and say Jordan. Might save some face that way.

cutthemdown
12-03-2009, 01:08 AM
Almost all the players in NFL were HS all stars and college studs. So that argument sort of rings hollow with me. DJ Williams one of the best HS running backs in so calif history but we aren't going to play him at RB either.

Popps
12-03-2009, 01:09 AM
I'm sure I'm really stupid and all, and I'm about to find out about it in your next post. Looking forward to it.

Jury is out on that.

But, for the 100th time, I don't think it's a conspiracy at all. As I said, I've seen this type of thing first-hand.


What was your highest level of football, Taco? Just curious?

Popps
12-03-2009, 01:14 AM
Almost all the players in NFL were HS all stars and college studs. So that argument sort of rings hollow with me. DJ Williams one of the best HS running backs in so calif history but we aren't going to play him at RB either.

But, when DJ came out... and entered college, those recruiters knew he was a high school RB. So, that information followed him into his pro career.

There's not a stone left unturned with these guys, and if Mike Shanahan drafts a fullback, you can damned well rest assured he knows if the guy can carry the ball.

Taco John
12-03-2009, 01:15 AM
Jury is out on that.

But, for the 100th time, I don't think it's a conspiracy at all. As I said, I've seen this first-hand.


What was your highest level of football, Taco? Just curious?

I played High School ball, worked the booth for the U of Idaho college program, and audited a college class my senior year on offense.

I didn't play college ball or anything, but football (particularly Denver Broncos football) has always been a passion for me (if the creation of this site is any indication). Oh, I also had a radio program my buddy and I did on the NFL game for a couple of seasons at the local college station. God that was a lot of fun. We'd announce what bar we were headed to after the show, and it never failed that we'd get a few beers bought for us as we talked ball.

No fair. Now I'm getting nostalgic!

Taco John
12-03-2009, 01:17 AM
But, when DJ came out... and entered college, those recruiters knew he was a high school RB. So, that information followed him into his pro career.

There's not a stone left unturned with these guys, and if Mike Shanahan drafts a fullback, you can damned well rest assured he knows if the guy can carry the ball.

Come on, dude. Shanahan was as suprised at the success Hillis had running as a tailback as the rest of us. Nobody expected a 250 pound guy to be able to hit a cutback lane like Hillis was doing in a live game situation.

The guy is a freak of nature.

Popps
12-03-2009, 01:18 AM
I played High School ball, worked the booth for the U of Idaho college program, and audited a college class my senior year on offense.

I didn't play college ball or anything, but football (particularly Denver Broncos football) has always been a passion for me (if the creation of this site is any indication). Oh, I also had a radio program my buddy and I did on the NFL game for a couple of seasons at the local college station. God that was a lot of fun. We'd announce what bar we were headed to after the show, and it never failed that we'd get a few beers bought for us as we talked ball.

No fair. Now I'm getting nostalgic!


High school is enough.

If you played, you're telling me you never saw a case of a guy who was more talented than his results on the field, or never even saw the field enough due to external circumstances?

I sure did. I only played a few years of varsity ball, and I can think of several examples of talented guys who struggled to stay in the starting line-up because they were ****-ups.

Not saying Hillis is a ****-up, but you get the point.

Taco John
12-03-2009, 01:25 AM
High school is enough.

If you played, you're telling me you never saw a case of a guy who was more talented than his results on the field, or never even saw the field enough due to external circumstances?

I sure did. I only played a few years of varsity ball, and I can think of several examples of talented guys who struggled to stay in the starting line-up because they were ****-ups.

Not saying Hillis is a ****-up, but you get the point.


I've seen it the other way around too. I've seen the guy who sucks at practice, but dominates when the game is live. Whatever the reason that Josh can't find to dress Hillis, it's my opinion that it's not good enough - especially when we we're on a four game skid and couldn't muster a running game to give our defense or our wounded quarterback cover.

I don't know why Josh can't find a way to get Hillis on the field. I just know that he should figure it out because Hillis is far, far too talented to leave in street clothes on the sidelines. I understand that you're not going to be the least bit critical of Josh, and good for you. But I can't help myself when I see a talent like Hillis going to absolute waste when I know what he's capable of.

I like Josh, but this whole Hillis ordeal makes me question his judgement when Lamont Jordan is being given more opportunities than the beast who almost single handedly carried this team to the post-season on his back last year. It's hard for me to remember the last time I saw a player make that kind of single-handed impact.

I personally think Josh should be embarassed that he can't find a way to get this guy on the field. But maybe I'm just being stupid. I can live with that.

Taco John
12-03-2009, 01:28 AM
For what it's worth, I can name about two dozen things that I thought Shanahan was wrong on over the years (and said so at the time). There are some doozies in there to be sure.

Taco John
12-03-2009, 01:33 AM
So seriously though...

Fourth and one, and you're keeping Hillis on the sidelines, and putting in Lamont Jordan?

I mean, I know that this has to be your answer, because answering Hillis would undermine the entire argument you've constructed. Obviously you can't answer Hillis.

But I know deep down, you want to. And I'm satisfied.

watermock
12-03-2009, 02:02 AM
god what an idiot.

watermock
12-03-2009, 02:08 AM
/COOKED CRACK NEVER TOUCHED THE BALL IN 08,

a PHONE SALESMAN DID.

Cutler played 87 deep all game.

Du=mbass,

watermock
12-03-2009, 02:22 AM
I don't know what Popps is defending.

He should be ****ting his pants.

Like a true wimp, he has nothing to defend.

It's all gravy, right Poops?

rastaman
12-03-2009, 03:30 AM
You should become his agent.

You should be on McDaniels coaching staff.

rastaman
12-03-2009, 04:04 AM
I tried explaining this before, here it goes again. Jordan has only like 3-4 fumbles his whole career. He really just doesn't fumble. I think his role on the team was a guy who would be a bkup and not fumble if the depth got so bad he had to play a lot.

Hillis we have seen is not that good holding onto to the ball. He has what 2-3 fumbles already. Thats a career for Jordan.

Wait a second here, are you saying Hillis has that many fumbles in 2009? And were these fumbles all with the first team offense as a RB or did these fumbles occur on special teams?

I think in he end if Hillis is satisfied with his role on special teams and likes how McDaniel's is using him then all is fine.

However, if Hillis does not like being used as a jack of all trades utility/special teams and believes he should a featured role with the first team offense, then at the end of the season Hillis should go to McD and ask for his out right release.

Hillis would be foolish to go into the 2010 believing McD would give him ample opportunity to play on Sundays and have a featured role with the first team offense. Why put up with the mind games McD is hard-wired to throw at you.
By the way how much trade value could McD demand for Hillis at this stage. With Hillis not getting ample opportunity to show case his talents on Sunday his trade value is zilich so why not give Hillis his relase if he ask for it.

Its not like Hillis is gettng any younger and risk career ending injury playing special teams any way. Why not risk injury playing with the first team offense with an NFL team that would allow Peyton to fairly compete and give him opportunities to contribute with the first team offense.

Simply put.....McD's system does not fit the tangibles Peyton Hillis brings to the table and its time to move on.

fontaine
12-03-2009, 05:28 AM
But I noticed that you still haven't answered my question...

It's fourth and 1 on the goal line and the entire season is at stake. A touchdown wins the game. Coming up short means going home. Buckhalter and Moreno are injured.

Whose hands are you going to put the ball in?

A. Jordan

or

B. Hillis


I can tell you who I would pick 10 out of 10 times.

In a ZBS I would pick Hillis 10 out of 10 times.

In the system we run now? I'm not so sure, it would have to depend on what play we were running.

barryr
12-03-2009, 05:56 AM
Maybe Hills doesn't know the plays and what he's supposed to do from play to play, which would obviously limit his usefulness. Hillis seems the type the less he has to think, the better he plays.

strafen
12-03-2009, 08:11 AM
You're claiming he's a starter at this point, not me. I like him, but Moreno is our future. So, as long as we've got two productive backs, I'm not sweating it.



Again, you'll have to take it up with Josh McDaniels and Mike Shanahan who didn't give him reps as a starting tailbacks until absolutely necessary.

There's a reason. I'm not saying I know what it is, but it's not coincidence, at this point. McD knows an offensive talent when he sees one. So does Shanahan. McD sees him at practice every day.

I'll give you a hint... he's not sitting on the bench because he's out-performing other guys in practice.Would I like to see Hillis start this season?
In hidsight yes. Not last year. I was just answering your question as to why Shanny didn't make him a starter last year. I responded to you clearly that he was drafted as a FB in the 7th round.
Even those things you claim -which in my opinion are the really conspiracies as you claim- are not good enough, are not valid enough to justify Hillis not playing.
Moreno, CBuck and Jordan are getting more reps. Do all of that make Hillis a lesser player than them?
Is Hillis now a bum?
That's a coaching decision. He's got his men. That simple. Hillis is not one of them.
McDaniels will live or die with the choices he's made.
McDaniels has had high-praise for Hillis if I recall correctly.
I'm a 100% McDaniels supporter, not a hater

You keep bringing your unsubstantiated rumors as your weapon of choice to speculate Hillis is now retarted, that he can't grasp this offense.
Quite honestly, the WC offense is perhaps harder to grasp than McDaniels offense

Again, if those rumors were to be true, and you have a guy who doesn't get it, if McDaniels is not seeing a talent there when he sees it, as you claim, then using your MO...you got two choices.

A- Coach him & play him
B- Trade/release him

It seems to me McDaniels doesn't screw around when it comes down to players performance, does he?
He got rid of two promising young players (Kern & Jack Williams) at the drop of a hat for having performance issues that you didn't even see it coming, and replaced them with two guys (Ty Law & Mitch Berger) who are clearly past their prime, who have no value for us next year, and who would most likely put us in a situation to find replacement for them soon after this season, no?

Popps
12-03-2009, 09:09 AM
So seriously though...

Fourth and one, and you're keeping Hillis on the sidelines, and putting in Lamont Jordan?

I mean, I know that this has to be your answer, because answering Hillis would undermine the entire argument you've constructed. Obviously you can't answer Hillis.

But I know deep down, you want to. And I'm satisfied.

Taco,

Again... you just can't be this stupid.


What do you think my "argument" is?


I was calling for Hillis to see touches long before you were last season.


My argument isn't that he's not physically talented. HE IS.




How many more ways can I say that before you keep re-typing the same thing to me?

Popps
12-03-2009, 09:12 AM
Maybe Hills doesn't know the plays and what he's supposed to do from play to play, which would obviously limit his usefulness. Hillis seems the type the less he has to think, the better he plays.

This is exactly what an unbiased scouting report said when he came out of college.

It's also what at least one seemingly credible source of information told me.
(Who had no reason to lie, and was actually filling me in because I'm a Hillis FAN, not a detractor.)

You could also look at circumstantial evidence and draw this conclusion.


Doesn't mean that's the case... but it's the obvious answer to the question.

~Crash~
12-03-2009, 09:14 AM
I see your point and its a very valid and well stated one. Hillis is one of those guys you WANT to root for. Its why the Mane has focused in on him and why not he is a lunch pail guy who plays football the right way.

Problem is Hillis kind of shot himself in the foot with mental errors and wasted opportunities. You earn your place on the team and in the rotation in camp. While Hillis didn't ruin his chances he also didn't create them during camp.

Then the first few weeks of the season he made some big mistakes. When you can only carry 53 men on the roster and only dress 47 for a game you have to carry the players who you think will win you a game. Hillis had errors on Special Teams and in the offense its reasonable for the team to not play him.

However, McD obviously sees something in him because he has kept him on the roster and has praised him publicly. So count me as one who isn't faulting McD for keeping Hillis on the sidelines because McD has FAR exceeded my expectations but I also appreciate that McD recognizes that if Hillis can put it all together he could really add another dimension to the team.

Its very rare that you have a player who you absolutely want to succeed. Hillis is one of those.

that was postive and I bet you feel good .:curtsey:

Popps
12-03-2009, 09:47 AM
By the way, as a side-note...

I actually think Hilis will overcome these issues. Maybe wishful thinking, but I think he's got enough talent that we'll stick with him and he'll eventually see more time. He's a versatile player, and that's typically something McD values.

We'll see. Hoping for the best.

houghtam
12-03-2009, 12:01 PM
I think this is one of the dumbest premises that I've seen on this forum since I first started it in the year 2000. People like Hillis, not because he looked like a rare talent when he had the ball in his hands, but because he's a white guy.

I can't help but lose respect for people who brainlessly paint other people with this type of racism.

Seeing as how I'm dying to earn your respect, do you care to offer a different opinion on why we have a 20 page thread about a guy with 50 career carries?

A rare talent? I saw a decent player last year that deserved an extended look over a longer period of time. But I would never have pegged him as a "rare talent".

But then again, I have no problem seeing him sit on the bench.

Taco John
12-03-2009, 12:07 PM
Seeing as how I'm dying to earn your respect, do you care to offer a different opinion on why we have a 20 page thread about a guy with 50 career carries?


Yeah, it's quite simple. It was based on what the guy did with those 50 carries combined with what our running game was showing during a four game skid. Duh.

Beantown Bronco
12-03-2009, 12:09 PM
Seeing as how I'm dying to earn your respect, do you care to offer a different opinion on why we have a 20 page thread about a guy with 50 career carries?

10 pages of

(1) Mock finding every and any excuse to bag on this year's draft after just a few months of rookie action to base it off of
and
(2) rasta pining for Hillis to get traded to some other team, so he can have a second team to root for (Bears being the first)

certainly helps.

Taco John
12-03-2009, 12:12 PM
This is exactly what an unbiased scouting report said when he came out of college.

It's also what at least one seemingly credible source of information told me.
(Who had no reason to lie, and was actually filling me in because I'm a Hillis FAN, not a detractor.)

You could also look at circumstantial evidence and draw this conclusion.


Doesn't mean that's the case... but it's the obvious answer to the question.


The interesting thing about that unbiased scouting report that you're referencing... I can't find a single reference to either the company, or a similar scouting report from that same company anywhere else on the internet. It's difficult to believe that somebody would just "make it up." But I can't determine the legitimacy of their report to compare against what they've said about anyone else - say perhaps Cutler.

It's difficult to put too much stock in that scouting report when I can't even find the company that is listed on the report anywhere on the Internet. It's like they don't exist. It's really wierd.