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zdoor
12-01-2010, 06:59 PM
Of course he is, the rest of the offensive talent around him sucks and are ineffective, which is why he is given the ball so much. Put Hillis on a team at least one viable option at any skill position and he isn't going to put up the numbers he is.

Just think of Knowshon Moreno had 40% of the touches for this team. I'm sure his numbers would be Pro-Bowl caliber too.

At 22% of our teams touches, he has 773 yards and 7 scores. Not too shabby. He has come on strong as of late and has made the most of his opportunities for the most part.

So people can pine Hillis all they want, but it is as clear as day that in our offensive system or any other where there is some balance he isn't going to be putting up those numbers. Not at all.

Your opinion man. I think there are a ton of coaches that would ride the Hillis horse just like Cleveland. He runs with tremendous power and is likely going to end up as arguably the best back of the 2010 season... But your entitled to your opinion...

Dr. Broncenstein
12-01-2010, 07:03 PM
Your opinion man. I think there are a ton of coaches that would ride the Hillis horse just like Cleveland. He runs with tremendous power and is likely going to end up as arguably the best back of the 2010 season... But your entitled to your opinion...

You should read Req's real opinion of Hillis before wasting any more of your time:

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=90012

Requiem
12-01-2010, 07:04 PM
Your opinion man. I think there are a ton of coaches that would ride the Hillis horse just like Cleveland. He runs with tremendous power and is likely going to end up as arguably the best back of the 2010 season... But your entitled to your opinion...

They have to ride him in Cleveland because they don't have anything else.

Most other teams around the league have balanced offenses with viable players at skill positions so there isn't going to be the large disparity of touches allocated to players.

Do you think Hillis would get 40% of the touches on the Titans? How about the Vikings? How about the Packers? How about the Jets?

No.

If I'm feeling frisky, I might look at the % of plays allocated towards running backs league wide to even broaden my argument. I expect some great workhorses, the Adrian Peterson's of the league and such to have ~ 30 give or take a few points.

I will not expect to see anyone with touch allocation as high as Hillis.

Anyone who gets 40% of their offensive looks is going to get production, period.

It really is quite simple and more than just opinion. A simple fact.

TotallyScrewed
12-01-2010, 07:04 PM
Why was it a stupid post? It is something you nor anyone else for that matter can refute.

If the Browns had any decent receivers on their roster, Hillis would not receive the amount of targets in the passing game he does, nor would he have as many touches overall. It is not a balanced offense, which equates to inflated production. It is a simple game of numbers.


Lloyd has 58 catches for 1,122 yards on 108 targets.

Gaffney has 54 catches for 665 yards on 87 targets.

Royal has 51 catches for 552 yards on 79 targets.


Peyton Hillis has 245 touches and has his production. He has also been thrown to 58 times, more than any other receiver on his team. How often is it that a running back is the most targeted receiver on the team? I can't think of many instances of that happening.

The Cleveland Browns have had 660 offensive plays. 258 of them have been directed at Hillis. That is 39% of their offense being thrown towards one guy, almost 40% -- a staggering number.

Compare that to Brandon Lloyd (since someone brought him up) and his 108 play directions out of 708 account for 15% of our play calls.

Not even remotely close in comparison. 24-25 point difference in percentage is quite huge. Though, it might have been more apt to compare touches to another running back, rather than a receiver for arguments sake -- as if you guys had one to begin with anyways.

Good luck on bouncing the ball back this way. You will need it.

You make a good point but let's look at it from the defenses standpoint. If 39% of the plays are directed to one guy...why not just STOP him?

misturanderson
12-01-2010, 07:05 PM
Want to feel like you were punched in the gut? Watch this highlight reel. Having watched all but two of the Brown's games (I watched parts of those), this is just a handful of his big plays.

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He does extremely well when he has a 6' wide hole to run through and then gets to just lower his shoulder into a guy that he outweighs by 50 or so lbs. That's not that impressive.

His jumps were pretty spectacular though. Also there were some short yardage plays where he made a lot out of a little, though it still often involves him overpowering people that he is much larger than. His best asset this year is how he continually churns his legs after first contact.

That's a great scheme for him to be in and something that he would have been having to do way behind the line of scrimmage if he were our running back this season.

That one-handed catch was pretty spectacular as well.

zdoor
12-01-2010, 07:06 PM
You could also argue just as effectively that he would have better production with a more balanced offense as he would not have to be the sole focus of every defense he faces. There are too many variables in your argument to reach only one conclusion...

TotallyScrewed
12-01-2010, 07:08 PM
He does extremely well when he has a 6' wide hole to run through and then gets to just lower his shoulder into a guy that he outweighs by 50 or so lbs. That's not that impressive.

His jumps were pretty spectacular though. Also there were some short yardage plays where he made a lot out of a little, though it still often involves him overpowering people that he is much larger than. His best asset this year is how he continually churns his legs after first contact.

That's a great scheme for him to be in and something that he would have been having to do way behind the line of scrimmage if he were our running back this season.

That one-handed catch was pretty spectacular as well.

MEh...it's a highlight reel. They had better be spectacular. What is interesting to me is that there were great plays while he was a Bronco...

Requiem
12-01-2010, 07:09 PM
You should read Req's real opinion of Hillis before wasting any more of your time:

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=90012

Oh, goodness. You learned how to use the search function. Fabulous.

Any comments on my argument regarding Hillis inflated production due to an egregious amount of targets and imbalance in Cleveland's offense?

misturanderson
12-01-2010, 07:09 PM
Your opinion man. I think there are a ton of coaches that would ride the Hillis horse just like Cleveland. He runs with tremendous power and is likely going to end up as arguably the best back of the 2010 season... But your entitled to your opinion...

You would have to be the highest paid Lawyer in the world to successfully make that argument.

Arian Foster is far and away the best running back in the league this year and Hillis is not even close.

Requiem
12-01-2010, 07:11 PM
You could also argue just as effectively that he would have better production with a more balanced offense as he would not have to be the sole focus of every defense he faces. There are too many variables in your argument to reach only one conclusion...

Uh,

My argument is under the premise that Hillis in a balanced offense would not be receiving 40% of the teams offensive looks. One player receiving 40% of the looks easily implies imbalance.

Requiem
12-01-2010, 07:12 PM
That's a great scheme for him to be in and something that he would have been having to do way behind the line of scrimmage if he were our running back this season.

I'm sure any back would love getting to tote the ball 40% each and every week and enjoy spectacular numbers!

misturanderson
12-01-2010, 07:14 PM
I'm sure any back would love getting to tote the ball 40% each and every week and enjoy spectacular numbers!

It certainly doesn't hurt when your offensive line can open up consistent 2 yard wide holes against the ravens either.

broncogary
12-01-2010, 07:16 PM
You would have to be the highest paid Lawyer in the world to successfully make that argument.

Arian Foster is far and away the best running back in the league this year and Hillis is not even close.


And I have them both on my fantasy team! :thanku:

Dr. Broncenstein
12-01-2010, 07:16 PM
Oh, goodness. You learned how to use the search function. Fabulous.

Any comments on my argument regarding Hillis inflated production due to an egregious amount of targets and imbalance in Cleveland's offense?

Naw dude, I didn't use the search function. This is the thread that caused you to eventually write a personal message essay trying to justify your homicidal feelings toward me. It's right there in my pm inbox. But if Hillis is the only outlet on a shiatty team, why don't the other teams just stop him?

go_broncos
12-01-2010, 07:17 PM
Mcd lovers still think that Hillis is not great..
We are last in rushing the ball..
As one poster said..I like the direction of the team.

zdoor
12-01-2010, 07:17 PM
You would have to be the highest paid Lawyer in the world to successfully make that argument.

Arian Foster is far and away the best running back in the league this year and Hillis is not even close.

I agree currently he is the best. Hills is #2 IMO. But, the year isn't over yet and I said you could argue... Playing the lawyer part I would say that Hillis' production is more impressive as he did it as the sole focus of every D that Cleveland faced, while Foster (who is almost singlehandedly winning my Fantasy league, but fortunately I also picked up Hillis early :P) has a good QB, a top WR and a stud TE. Just the argument I would make and why Requiems point doesn't prove anything... There are too many conclusions you can draw...

TotallyScrewed
12-01-2010, 07:18 PM
Uh,

My argument is under the premise that Hillis in a balanced offense would not be receiving 40% of the teams offensive looks. One player receiving 40% of the looks easily implies imbalance.

I think we're suggesting that his numbers aren't inflated as the defenses are likely looking to stop him foremost since he's 39% of Cleveland's offense.

You might say the same thing about Orton...just for argument's sake.

zdoor
12-01-2010, 07:19 PM
Uh,

My argument is under the premise that Hillis in a balanced offense would not be receiving 40% of the teams offensive looks. One player receiving 40% of the looks easily implies imbalance.

Your argument is his stats and performance would be less, I'm saying your point is moot because it is not the only conclusion you can draw...

go_broncos
12-01-2010, 07:19 PM
Naw dude, I didn't use the search function. This is the thread that caused you to eventually write a personal message essay trying to justify your homicidal feelings toward me. It's right there in my pm inbox. But if Hillis is the only outlet on a shiatty team, why don't the other teams just stop him?

They love Mcd so much that they think he can't make any mistakes.
Mcd downfall started with this trade.

oubronco
12-01-2010, 07:20 PM
You would have to be the highest paid Lawyer in the world to successfully make that argument.

Arian Foster is far and away the best running back in the league this year and Hillis is not even close.

And yet it's like only 200 yds difference between the two I believe

UltimateHoboW/Shotgun
12-01-2010, 07:23 PM
I'm sure any back would love getting to tote the ball 40% each and every week and enjoy spectacular numbers!

ok. you say that like he's getting 3.8 yards per. he's got 4.5 per carry. that means that the browns are looking at 3rd and 1 or 3rd and 2 and still be a running down veruses 3rd and 3 or 3rd and 2 and a passing down.

wandlc
12-01-2010, 07:23 PM
Have you guys seen the Browns schedule?

Nice try.

Denver might've won last week against the Panthers.

Have you? The Browns have played one of the toughest schedules in the NFL and have yet to get blown out. Their worst loss was to Pittsburgh 28-10 and that game was close until the very end. They have played TB, KC, Bal, Cin, Atl, Pitt, NO, NE, NYJ, Jac, & Car. Do you think the Broncos have 4 wins with that schedule? 7 teams that are in first place and one in 2nd and 9 of 11 against teams with winning records.

Requiem
12-01-2010, 07:24 PM
They love Mcd so much that they think he can't make any mistakes.
Mcd downfall started with this trade.

I've already stated that in hindsight, unloading Hillis for Quinn was a terrible decision.

That should be evident to everyone.

My issue here is those that believe he would be having that sort of success here or anywhere else for that matter, when enough ample evidence has been provided to suggest that his large numbers are likely due to an inflated number of looks compared to the rest of the backs in the NFL.

(Though, I should probably start seeing the % of touches league-wide for RB starters to further that claim.)

But hey, at least I came up with an argument instead of just crying over spilled milk.

zdoor
12-01-2010, 07:28 PM
And yet it's like only 200 yds difference between the two I believe

I cHeckled out of curiosity and wished I hadn't.... About 240 yards rushing difference. About 40 yards passing (they both have over 400) and worst of all they both have 13 TD's... I'm going to go puke now... Sickening... We need to stop talking about this... It's really depressing..

wandlc
12-01-2010, 07:28 PM
ok. you say that like he's getting 3.8 yards per. he's got 4.5 per carry. that means that the browns are looking at 3rd and 1 or 3rd and 2 and still be a running down veruses 3rd and 3 or 3rd and 2 and a passing down.

Also, he possibly will eclipse the 1000 yd mark in 12 games, of which he has only started in 10. 1000 yds in 12 games is very good for any back. He also has 414 yards receiving which is very good. Another reason he gets touches is that he is a 3 down back, something that many said he was incapable of being.

wandlc
12-01-2010, 07:31 PM
I cHeckled out of curiosity and wished I hadn't.... About 240 yards rushing difference. About 40 yards passing (they both have over 400) and worst of all they both have 13 TD's... I'm going to go puke now... Sickening... We need to stop talking about this... It's really depressing..

And Hillis has done that in essentially 2 less games.

Requiem
12-01-2010, 07:31 PM
I think we're suggesting that his numbers aren't inflated as the defenses are likely looking to stop him foremost since he's 39% of Cleveland's offense.

Interesting suggestion, but not reality.

You might say the same thing about Orton...just for argument's sake.

Of course, and I would absolutely agree. Orton is having a whale of a year because we are tossing the ball up like no other. All the yards in the world don't mean jack to me when the efficiency isn't there on third downs and we aren't putting up a lot of points.

Hell, Ashley Lelie's best season as a Bronco was "ironically" the one where he had received over 100 targets as a receiver.

In Mike Shanahan-like fashion, "Any time you have a player who gets the ball 40% of the snaps in a game, he is gonna produce."

It sucks to see Hillis lighting it up in Cleveland when the player we acquired for him is the emergency QB on Sunday's.

Hindsight, 20/20 -- shows this to be a poor trade.

Just as it was poor trade and decision by Josh to unload Smith after one season in Denver.

I am not here to defend the decisions at all. I have actually been highly critical of the value we have mortgaged in the draft and elsewhere based on McDaniels desires. It is probably the thing I like least about him.

Requiem
12-01-2010, 07:32 PM
ok. you say that like he's getting 3.8 yards per. he's got 4.5 per carry. that means that the browns are looking at 3rd and 1 or 3rd and 2 and still be a running down veruses 3rd and 3 or 3rd and 2 and a passing down.

Yep, Hillis is producing like a man on a mission, regardless of the looks or not. He is making the most out of his situation. Kudos to him on a Pro-Bowl caliber year. It is unfortunate we could not see that here.

oubronco
12-01-2010, 07:35 PM
Yep, Hillis is producing like a man on a mission, regardless of the looks or not. He is making the most out of his situation. Kudos to him on a Pro-Bowl caliber year. It is unfortunate we could not see that here.

It's unfortunate that he didn't get an adequate enough chance to do that here

TotallyScrewed
12-01-2010, 07:36 PM
Yep, Hillis is producing like a man on a mission, regardless of the looks or not. He is making the most out of his situation. Kudos to him on a Pro-Bowl caliber year. It is unfortunate we could not see that here.

I agree.

zdoor
12-01-2010, 07:37 PM
You should read Req's real opinion of Hillis before wasting any more of your time:

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=90012

That thread is good comedy in hindsight...too bad the last laugh is on us...

strafen
12-01-2010, 07:38 PM
Of course he is, the rest of the offensive talent around him sucks and are ineffective, which is why he is given the ball so much. Put Hillis on a team at least one viable option at any skill position and he isn't going to put up the numbers he is.

Just think of Knowshon Moreno had 40% of the touches for this team. I'm sure his numbers would be Pro-Bowl caliber too.

At 22% of our teams touches, he has 773 yards and 7 scores. Not too shabby. He has come on strong as of late and has made the most of his opportunities for the most part.

So people can pine Hillis all they want, but it is as clear as day that in our offensive system or any other where there is some balance he isn't going to be putting up those numbers. Not at all.Sorry man, you're way off in your assessment.

For starters, you claim: "Of course he is, the rest of the offensive talent around him sucks and are ineffective, which is why he is given the ball so much. Put Hillis on a team at least one viable option at any skill position and he isn't going to put up the numbers he is."
How do you know?

Hillis ended up in a place he may not even wanted to play for, and the guy made the best of it, not knowing their offense and what they're all about.
Hillis is a rare talent. He went into Cleveland as a back up. He has done such an incredible job, the Browns starting RB is gone.
Not only did Hillis win the starting job, the guy is the featured offensive weapon of the team!
Think about it, and you're telling us a talent like that would fail elsewhere?
Are you kidding me?
The guy demonstrated his skills here in 2008 and he's validated them in Cleveland. It's just that simple...

Then you've said: "At 22% of our teams touches, he has 773 yards and 7 scores. Not too shabby. He has come on strong as of late and has made the most of his opportunities for the most part.
"
Moreno is just not a back performing like a 12th overall pick.
He's been a disappointment. Say what you want to say about our OL. I understand that. I'm not expecting Moreno to put a lot of yardage, but at least I want to see willing his own way at some point, you know?
I don't think he does that with enough frequency.

And lastly you emphasize: "So people can pine Hillis all they want, but it is as clear as day that in our offensive system or any other where there is some balance he isn't going to be putting up those numbers. Not at all"
Perhaps you're basing your opinion on less carries equal less yards. I can see that. I can see how his numbers would obviously decrease, in fact, that applies to any RB, does it not?
However, his YPC is not going to be affected, making him still a force. His TD's will still be up there.
The guy has over 900 yards, 11TD's leading the team
He's also second in catches with 414 yds and 2TD.

I don't know how you can overlook what this guy does and come up with those kind of statements. I really don't...

Dean
12-01-2010, 07:40 PM
I've already stated that in hindsight, unloading Hillis for Quinn was a terrible decision.

That should be evident to everyone.

My issue here is those that believe he would be having that sort of success here or anywhere else for that matter, when enough ample evidence has been provided to suggest that his large numbers are likely due to an inflated number of looks compared to the rest of the backs in the NFL.

(Though, I should probably start seeing the % of touches league-wide for RB starters to further that claim.)

But hey, at least I came up with an argument instead of just crying over spilled milk.


The bolded section is self evident. He was here last year and McD gave him a sum total of 13 carries. Needless to say Peyton's 2009 stats don't rival his 2010 stats.;D

Requiem
12-01-2010, 07:41 PM
It's unfortunate that he didn't get an adequate enough chance to do that here

I'm a firm believer that you earn your chances in the NFL.

Hillis shined some great moments in his first year under Mike after all else failed (our whole RB band placed on IR or incapable of playing) and then he too got hurt.

When Josh came to town, he had already invested a high selection in Moreno and it was evident that we were going to get the ball rolling with him. Josh McDaniels took over a team with not many backs that fit his offensive system, and decided to unload his first ever selection one of the most productive backs in college football over the past two seasons.

The selection of Moreno made sense, so the revisionists saying that his selection was not needed given Hillis presence on the team at that time are quite out of line. It is crystal clear why we selected Moreno at #12.

What isn't as clear is why Hillis didn't get touches on the team. I've read that it was because he didn't grasp the system. I've also read it was because he got into McDaniels doghouse. I don't know, I don't really care. There is nothing I can do about it now.

Personally, just my opinion, I don't think Hillis would have that sort of success here or elsewhere, for the reasons provided. At any case, that is probably irrelevant. Bottom line, he has been an absolute monster, but who wouldn't produce with 40% of the ball coming your way week-in-and-week-out?

Bad trade in hindsight. Horrendous actually.

We just have to move on.

Dr. Broncenstein
12-01-2010, 07:43 PM
Here you go Req. Neg rep and deny all you want, but they were your words not mine. If you want, I can post your sob story PM if you need a refresher.

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showpost.php?p=2999488&postcount=154

Requiem
12-01-2010, 07:51 PM
Sorry man, you're way off in your assessment.

Not at all.

How do you know?

What other teams in the NFL give 40% of their offensive plays to one player?

That is how I know. I can also tell that the Browns are talent laden from watching their team play and looking at their roster. Hillis, Peyton Hillis, (who is a great pass catcher no doubt) has more targets than their top three receiving options. That is unheard of.

He is not going to get those looks elsewhere, guaranteed.

Hillis ended up in a place he may not even wanted to play for, and the guy made the best of it, not knowing their offense and what they're all about.

Yeah, he made the most of it. What does this exactly refute?

Hillis is a rare talent. He went into Cleveland as a back up. He has done such an incredible job, the Browns starting RB is gone.

He was such a rare talent that he lasted until the seventh round in the draft. Couldn't have been that rare. I mean, if he was a once and a lifetime talent, you think he would have been thought of a lot higher by teams and talent evaluators around the league.

Think about it, and you're telling us a talent like that would fail elsewhere? Are you kidding me?

I never said he would fail elsewhere. I have stated he would not be putting up those numbers elsewhere because there is no other team in the league that funnels 40% of their offensive plays to one player. Less touches, less production. It is simple math. Do you think that a team like the Eagles with Maclin, Jackson and McCoy (viable players) on offense are going to lose touches because of Hillis there? Do you honestly believe that he would be getting the ball in such a fashion on any other team with quality players around him?

Have you even watched the Browns this year? They have no talent. There is no wonder why he gets the ball so much.

Moreno is just not a back performing as a 12th overall pick.
He's been a disappointment. Say what you want to say about our OL. I understand that. I'm not expecting Moreno to put a lot of yardage, but at least I want to see willing his own way at some point, you know?
I don't think he does that with enough frequency.

Moreno has been one of our top offensive performers and scorers on the team since he was drafted. In our offense, he isn't going to be a 1,500 yard back rusher on the ground. He is going to be a Ricky Waters type player who will get you that 1,000 on the ground and couple hundred in the passing game. I expect him to improve, and I believe he will improve. I don't think it is coincidence that he has been having his best games (last three) behind the line that was PROJECTED to be STARTING at the start of the year. No doubt, a healthier -- more consistent line has helped out Knowshon. The past three games show that.

I don't know how you can overlook what this guy does and come up with those kind of statements. I really don't...

What kind of statements?

I provided the reality of his situation and Cleveland and a good indicator as to why he is producing.

Let me ask you, if Moreno was in Cleveland and had 40% of the balls go his way, how well do you think he would be doing?

Taco John
12-01-2010, 08:07 PM
Wow, you can't possibly be that blind or stupid.

Did you even bother to read the OP? Were you aware that I was one of, if not the first to call for him to be the starter at tailback? Do you read at all?


As has been pointed out... this is why this place is becoming so useless. People either can't read, or won't read... and so you're having a debate with them about something that doesn't exist.

Then the question becomes, do they KNOW they're telling lies and just doing it because that gives them pleasure, or are they so gullible that they believe something a troll read without doing the proper research themselves?

Either way, just another example of the degradation of the Mane.

Whatever dude. It has nothing to do with the so-called "degredation of the Mane." You're the champion of this tactic and have been doing it since the Griese days.

UltimateHoboW/Shotgun
12-01-2010, 08:09 PM
Yep, Hillis is producing like a man on a mission, regardless of the looks or not. He is making the most out of his situation. Kudos to him on a Pro-Bowl caliber year. It is unfortunate we could not see that here.

First, its he not we. Second, the talent that Hillis has is pretty apparent. I have never seen a coach so a.) talent blind or b.) immature to criticism.

Popps
12-01-2010, 08:14 PM
Whatever dude. It has nothing to do with the so-called "degredation of the Mane." You're the champion of this tactic and have been doing it since the Griese days.

Nah. I can debate people on-point, Taco. I don't need to create arguments that don't exist.

Again, I never accused you of saying Griese was better than Elway, which is the equivalent of people saying I said Hillis had no talent. It's just flat out lying.

I can't see what would be fun or challenging about arguing against a false premise.

But, whatever floats people's boats.

broncolife
12-01-2010, 08:17 PM
Peyton Hillis
Rush

199 carries
4.5 avg
905 yards
11 tds

Rec
46 receptions
414 yards
2 tds

5 fumbles 4 lost

Defenders know run is coming and still cant stop it

Moreno Fantasy numbers
Rush

199 carries
3.8 avg.
760 yards
6 tds

Rec
46 receptions
481 yards
5 tds

6 fumbles 4 lost


Playing in a pass happy O while defenders not expecting run

Pony Boy
12-01-2010, 08:18 PM
Any comments on my argument regarding Hillis inflated production due to an egregious amount of targets and imbalance in Cleveland's offense?

Very simple argument "Dance with the one that brung ya" as Darrell Royal use to say.

Do you really think a QB in the red zone that knows if he gives the ball to Hillis it's 6 points is going to opt to spread it around a little to create some balance.....:rofl:

Requiem
12-01-2010, 08:18 PM
First, its he not we. Second, the talent that Hillis has is pretty apparent. I have never seen a coach so a.) talent blind or b.) immature to criticism.

31 other teams passed on him in the draft through the seventh round, so I'm guessing there are a lot of talent blind people out there by your logic.

Requiem
12-01-2010, 08:20 PM
Do you really think a QB in the red zone that knows if he gives the ball to Hillis it's 6 points is going to opt to spread it around a little to create some balance.....:rofl:

I expect a quarterback and coach to go with what they know works, which as I have pointed out, has been Hillis -- the only bright spot in their offense.

I've also pointed out that he also receives more looks in the passing game than the top three receivers on his team, which was used as more support for an unbalance offense that leads to statistical inflation in regards to touches on his behalf.

I bet Moreno would have some sexy stats with 40% of the balls going his direction, right?

UltimateHoboW/Shotgun
12-01-2010, 08:23 PM
31 other teams passed on him in the draft through the seventh round, so I'm guessing there are a lot of talent blind people out there by your logic.

And the streets are littered with #1 overall that stank. The only thing that matters is what happens on the field. And what we all saw on the field is that Hillis could play. I mean name me a player that was proformed under similar situation?

go_broncos
12-01-2010, 08:23 PM
I expect a quarterback and coach to go with what they know works, which as I have pointed out, has been Hillis -- the only bright spot in their offense.

I've also pointed out that he also receives more looks in the passing game than the top three receivers on his team, which was used as more support for an unbalance offense that leads to statistical inflation in regards to touches on his behalf.

I bet Moreno would have some sexy stats with 40% of the balls going his direction, right?

Moreno will be in IR if he touches the ball that many times.

strafen
12-01-2010, 08:25 PM
What other teams in the NFL give 40% of their offensive plays to one player?Teams that have a strong offensive weapon, will feed that person the ball all day long. It's called, using your best weapon(s) to win a game.


That is how I know. I can also tell that the Browns are talent laden from watching their team play and looking at their roster. Hillis, Peyton Hillis, (who is a great pass catcher no doubt) has more targets than their top three receiving options. That is unheard of.

He is not going to get those looks elsewhere, guaranteed. Again, it comes down to his talents and abilities. If the guy wasn't that good he would not be getting those looks, will he?



Yeah, he made the most of it. What does this exactly refute?The fact he didn't have veto vote where to go. Goes where he lands and plays his game, in other words, it wouldn't have mattered where he went


He was such a rare talent that he lasted until the seventh round in the draft. Couldn't have been that rare. I mean, if he was a once and a lifetime talent, you think he would have been thought of a lot higher by teams and talent evaluators around the league. Not sure if you're serious...
Would you consider Terrel Davis, Tom Brady, and Dan Marino rare talents?
Of course you would. They were all selected in late rounds.
So, your statement there doesn't hold water.



I never said he would fail elsewhere. I have stated he would not be putting up those numbers elsewhere because there is no other team in the league that funnels 40% of their offensive plays to one player. Less touches, less production. It is simple math. Do you think that a team like the Eagles with Maclin, Jackson and McCoy (viable players) on offense are going to lose touches because of Hillis there? Do you honestly believe that he would be getting the ball in such a fashion on any other team with quality players around him?You pick your fight.
Certaintly, a team like the Eagles may not need Hillis or anybody else for that matter. Why would they?
Yet, he would make his presence felt.
A team like the Giants, the Skins, Dallas, Indy, the Chiefs, the Raiders to just name a few, would make Hillis a featured weapon on their offense.

Have you even watched the Browns this year? They have no talent. There is no wonder why he gets the ball so much.More power to Hillis. I don't see the downside of that...


Moreno has been one of our top offensive performers and scorers on the team since he was drafted. In our offense, he isn't going to be a 1,500 yard back rusher on the ground. He is going to be a Ricky Waters type player who will get you that 1,000 on the ground and couple hundred in the passing game. I expect him to improve, and I believe he will improve. I don't think it is coincidence that he has been having his best games (last three) behind the line that was PROJECTED to be STARTING at the start of the year. No doubt, a healthier -- more consistent line has helped out Knowshon. The past three games show that.He still averages under 4 ypc at 3.8


What kind of statements?

I provided the reality of his situation and Cleveland and a good indicator as to why he is producing.

Let me ask you, if Moreno was in Cleveland and had 40% of the balls go his way, how well do you think he would be doing?He might put up numbers, but he won't be an impact player featured the way Hillis is featured right now, that's for sure...

Requiem
12-01-2010, 08:26 PM
And the streets are littered with #1 overall that stank. The only thing that matters is what happens on the field. And what we all saw on the field is that Hillis could play. I mean name me a player that was proformed under similar situation?

Yeah, I hear you.

I always thought that with Hillis ability to run and catch that he would have been a good complimentary option in a Kevin Faulk type role. I'm really sad to see that didn't happen, as are most you.

And do you mean a player who made the most of his opportunity after others around him got hurt or didn't perform?

Happens all the time.

Does this player have to be a late-round talent?

Maybe Tom Brady. Didn't he come in for Bledsoe after he got hurt?

Can't remember. That was years ago.

Pony Boy
12-01-2010, 08:27 PM
31 other teams passed on him in the draft through the seventh round, so I'm guessing there are a lot of talent blind people out there by your logic.

No 1 team had him in camp and on the roster and saw what he could do in game situations and still traded him for Brady ****ing Quinn and future picks.

misturanderson
12-01-2010, 08:28 PM
Peyton Hillis
Rush

199 carries
4.5 avg
905 yards
11 tds

Rec
46 receptions
414 yards
2 tds

5 fumbles 4 lost

Defenders know run is coming and still cant stop it

Moreno Fantasy numbers
Rush

199 carries
3.8 avg.
760 yards
6 tds

6 fumbles 4 lost

Rec
46 receptions
481 yards
5 tds

Playing in a pass happy O while defenders not execting run

That pass happy O also has been playing with both starting tackles and a right guard at less than 100%, 3 different LGs (the best of which is a rookie) and a rookie C. It's a wonder that Moreno has been able to get up to a 3.8 yard average.

He is also outperforming Hillis by a fairly wide margin (for a RB) in the passing game.

misturanderson
12-01-2010, 08:31 PM
No 1 team had him in camp and on the roster and saw what he could do in game situations and still traded him for Brady ****ing Quinn and future picks.

Fumble, not pick up short yardage runs, drop passes, get penalties and generally look like he either wasn't trying or didn't know what he was doing? That's what McDaniels saw Hillis do in games as part of his team.

Don't act like Hillis made the most of his opportunities and was still benched/traded. It would have been sweet if he had played well under McDaniels and was given an expanded role in the offense. It would be sweet if that meant that he was still here. Unfortunately he didn't and he isn't.

Taco John
12-01-2010, 08:33 PM
Karl Mecklenberg was a 13th round draft pick...

Taco John
12-01-2010, 08:35 PM
I would have like to see what a Cutler, Hillis, Marshall, Royal offense would have looked like by now with two more years of chemistry behind them.

Pony Boy
12-01-2010, 08:38 PM
Fumble, not pick up short yardage runs, drop passes, get penalties and generally look like he either wasn't trying or didn't know what he was doing? That's what McDaniels saw Hillis do in games as part of his team. Don't act like Hillis made the most of his opportunities and was still benched.

You're right that's what McDaniels saw but as you can see by this thread most Bronco fans saw what Cleveland saw in him and what all of the NFL is seeing now.

Dr. Broncenstein
12-01-2010, 08:39 PM
I like how Moreno never fumbles. It totally reinforces the "Hillis was a fumbler" argument.

TDmvp
12-01-2010, 08:40 PM
I would have like to see what a Cutler, Hillis, Marshall, Royal offense would have looked like by now with two more years of chemistry behind them.

dude .. stop it . Your going to make me get all emotional and I've been doing so well of late .... :)


I still blame myself and You Tj for the whole Shanny leaving thing and all that happened after it...

You for the thread about Pat will never fire Shanny and me for being a @ick to people all day long before Shanny's last game because I was worried we was going to lose. I think it was my bad Karma that cost us the game and then the landslide started... ;D.

broncolife
12-01-2010, 08:44 PM
He is also outperforming Hillis by a fairly wide margin (for a RB) in the passing game.

In fantasy land yes but in the real world no.
Hillis
46 rec
Moreno
28 rec

Hillis Winner
Hillis
2 Tds
Moreno 3 Tds

Moreno Winner
Hillis
Avg 9.0
Moreno
Avg 10.8

Moreno Winner
Hillis
414 yards
Moreno
301

Hillis Winner
Hillis
47Longest reception
Moreno
45Longest reception


Hillis Winner wooohoo just kidding:)

Gutless Drunk
12-01-2010, 08:44 PM
He is also outperforming Hillis by a fairly wide margin (for a RB) in the passing game.



?

Rec Yds Avg TD
Moreno 28 301 10.8 3
Hillis 46 414 9.0 2

Requiem
12-01-2010, 08:46 PM
Give Moreno 50 looks in the passing game like Hillis and he would have better numbers. Moreno has 28 catches in 8 games with 35 targets. Solid stuff.

misturanderson
12-01-2010, 08:49 PM
In fantasy land yes but in the real world no.
Hillis
46 rec
Moreno
28 rec

Hillis Winner
Hillis
2 Tds
Moreno 3 Tds

Moreno Winner
Hillis
Avg 9.0
Moreno
Avg 10.8

Moreno Winner
Hillis
414 yards
Moreno
301

Hillis Winner
Hillis
47Longest reception
Moreno
45Longest reception


Hillis Winner wooohoo just kidding:)
You tricked me into thinking that Moreno actually had those numbers, which would have been awesome. My bad.

misturanderson
12-01-2010, 08:53 PM
You're right that's what McDaniels saw but as you can see by this thread most Bronco fans saw what Cleveland saw in him and what all of the NFL is seeing now.

Yes Cleveland saw so much out of him that they traded Quinn and requested 2 picks in addition to Hillis. They also kept him at #2 on the depth chart until he was forced in by injury.

I'm pretty sure they lucked into what he's doing this year and their dominant run-blocking line sure hasn't hurt things.

Pony Boy
12-01-2010, 08:55 PM
I like how Moreno never fumbles. It totally reinforces the "Hillis was a fumbler" argument.

I would consider these backs great and they are all considered fumblers....

Adrian Peterson 2.0 fumble percentage
Walter Payton 2.0%
Franco Harris 2.8%
Tiki Barber 1.9%
Emmit Smith 1.2%

Hillis so far in his short carreer 1.75%

Taco John
12-01-2010, 08:55 PM
dude .. stop it . Your going to make me get all emotional and I've been doing so well of late .... :)


I still blame myself and You Tj for the whole Shanny leaving thing and all that happened after it...

You for the thread about Pat will never fire Shanny and me for being a @ick to people all day long before Shanny's last game because I was worried we was going to lose. I think it was my bad Karma that cost us the game and then the landslide started... ;D.

Yeah, well it gets worse... I believe that Shanny would have drafted Moreno too. Imagine Cutler, Marshall, Royal, Hillis, Moreno, Scheffler, and of course, Clady on the same offense, and all the picks we had over the last two years reinforcing the defense. You think we'd be last in the AFC West right now?

Moreno in Shanahan's running game? Shanny's system was built for guys like Moreno.

I'm just going to listen to this song and cry myself out...

<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/jzduPKYz3uk?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/jzduPKYz3uk?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

Dr. Broncenstein
12-01-2010, 08:58 PM
I would consider these backs great and they are all considered fumblers....

Adrian Peterson 2.0 fumble percentage
Walter Payton 2.0%
Franco Harris 2.8%
Tiki Barber 1.9%
Emmit Smith 1.2%

Hillis so far in his short carreer 1.75%

I demand real markers of failed productivity -- like blown punt coverages and fumbled kick returns.

Pony Boy
12-01-2010, 09:01 PM
Yes Cleveland saw so much out of him that they traded Quinn and requested 2 picks in addition to Hillis. They also kept him at #2 on the depth chart until he was forced in by injury.

I'm pretty sure they lucked into what he's doing this year and their dominant run-blocking line sure hasn't hurt things.

You're right they traded a former 1st round pick for Hillis.

Also it's funny how a line all of a sudden becomes dominate when a great running back that knows how to hit the holes and make good decisions show up on a team.

Pony Boy
12-01-2010, 09:09 PM
I demand real markers of failed productivity -- like blown punt coverages and fumbled kick returns.

Don't forget the inability to absorb the highly complicated master scheme playbook

UltimateHoboW/Shotgun
12-01-2010, 09:11 PM
Yeah, I hear you.
I always thought that with Hillis ability to run and catch that he would have been a good complimentary option in a Kevin Faulk type role. I'm really sad to see that didn't happen, as are most you.
And do you mean a player who made the most of his opportunity after others around him got hurt or didn't perform?
Happens all the time.
Does this player have to be a late-round talent?
Maybe Tom Brady. Didn't he come in for Bledsoe after he got hurt?
Can't remember. That was years ago.
The player I was thinking about is Priest Holmes. Expect Holmes almost never saw the field for like 2-3 years with the "rat birds". Then he gets to the freaking chefs and has a HOF type career. That's what I'm talking about. We lost a Priest Holmes type player. Except we saw what he had unlike Priest Holmes.

broncolife
12-01-2010, 09:16 PM
Karl Mecklenberg was a 13th round draft pick...

Awww Karl Mecklenberg my 2nd favorite Bronco Defender right behind Atwater.

Dr. Broncenstein
12-01-2010, 09:18 PM
Awww Karl Mecklenberg my 2nd favorite Bronco Defender right behind Atwater.

The only reason Bronco "fans" liked that 13th round scrub was because of his skin color. Racist a-holes.

zdoor
12-01-2010, 09:23 PM
I would have like to see what a Cutler, Hillis, Marshall, Royal offense would have looked like by now with two more years of chemistry behind them.

Me too...

loborugger
12-01-2010, 09:23 PM
113th page bump

zdoor
12-01-2010, 09:29 PM
The player I was thinking about is Priest Holmes. Expect Holmes almost never saw the field for like 2-3 years with the "rat birds". Then he gets to the freaking chefs and has a HOF type career. That's what I'm talking about. We lost a Priest Holmes type player. Except we saw what he had unlike Priest Holmes.

That's a pretty decent comparison...

Pony Boy
12-01-2010, 09:35 PM
Karl Mecklenberg was a 13th round draft pick...

"The Snow Goose" aka "The Albino Rhino" just might be the best nicknames ever.

misturanderson
12-01-2010, 09:37 PM
You're right they traded a former 1st round pick for Hillis.

Also it's funny how a line all of a sudden becomes dominate when a great running back that knows how to hit the holes and make good decisions show up on a team.

No the line became dominant with 2 new players that were better than the old ones, as well as a highly drafted C improving from year 1 to year 2 all built around an all-pro LT.

The RB had very little to do with their improvement (not that they were bad last year anyway). He makes the most out of the holes they create because it allows him to build up a head of steam and destroy (or jump over when they try to go low) the secondary players that he outweighs by 50+ lbs.

It's a great combo, but that line deserves as much or more credit than Hillis does in the running game.

Dr. Broncenstein
12-01-2010, 09:39 PM
"The Snow Goose" aka "The Albino Rhino" just might be the best nicknames ever.

That's only because Ku Klux Karl was too obvious.

Dr. Broncenstein
12-01-2010, 09:42 PM
No the line became dominant with 2 new players that were better than the old ones, as well as a highly drafted player improving from year 1 to year 2 all built around an all-pro LT.

The RB had very little to do with it. He makes the most out of the holes they create because it allows him to build up a head of steam and destroy (or jump over when they try to go low) the secondary players that he outweighs by 50+ lbs.

It's a great combo, but that line deserves as much or more credit than Hillis does in the running game.

It's amazing how unproductive the rest of Cleveland's running backs have been this year behind that incredible blocking.

Pony Boy
12-01-2010, 09:42 PM
No the line became dominant with 2 new players that were better than the old ones, as well as a highly drafted C improving from year 2 to year 3 all built around an all-pro LT.

The RB had very little to do with it. He makes the most out of the holes they create because it allows him to build up a head of steam and destroy (or jump over when they try to go low) the secondary players that he outweighs by 50+ lbs.

It's a great combo, but that line deserves as much or more credit than Hillis does in the running game.

Ah, crap.....my wife's making me come to bed.........good stuff...:thumbsup:

misturanderson
12-01-2010, 09:45 PM
It's amazing how unproductive the rest of Cleveland's running backs have been this year behind that incredible blocking.

I wasn't aware that the browns had any offensive players outside of Hillis.

Dr. Broncenstein
12-01-2010, 09:48 PM
I wasn't aware that the browns had any offensive players outside of Hillis.

Well they are African American, so they are harder to see. Especially on a team called the "Browns."

strafen
12-01-2010, 09:57 PM
No the line became dominant with 2 new players that were better than the old ones, as well as a highly drafted C improving from year 1 to year 2 all built around an all-pro LT.

The RB had very little to do with their improvement (not that they were bad last year anyway). He makes the most out of the holes they create because it allows him to build up a head of steam and destroy (or jump over when they try to go low) the secondary players that he outweighs by 50+ lbs.

It's a great combo, but that line deserves as much or more credit than Hillis does in the running game.

Funny stuff!

zdoor
12-01-2010, 09:58 PM
Well they are African American, so they are harder to see. Especially on a team called the "Browns."

:rofl::rofl::rofl:

misturanderson
12-01-2010, 10:03 PM
Well they are African American, so they are harder to see. Especially on a team called the "Browns."

That must be my issue.

broncofan2438
12-01-2010, 10:10 PM
Who is Peyton Hillis??

go_broncos
12-02-2010, 05:46 AM
Who is Peyton Hillis??

Dumb guy who didn't understand Mcd's complex system.

Gort
12-02-2010, 06:56 AM
Wow, you can't possibly be that blind or stupid.

Did you even bother to read the OP? Were you aware that I was one of, if not the first to call for him to be the starter at tailback? Do you read at all?


As has been pointed out... this is why this place is becoming so useless. People either can't read, or won't read... and so you're having a debate with them about something that doesn't exist.

Then the question becomes, do they KNOW they're telling lies and just doing it because that gives them pleasure, or are they so gullible that they believe something a troll read without doing the proper research themselves?

Either way, just another example of the degradation of the Mane.

http://cdn3.knowyourmeme.com/i/9987/original/internet_serious_business_framed.jpg

lighten up.

you've got to know that after 2700+ posts on this thread, you've opened yourself up to just a little bit of ribbing for your position on Hillis.

who can you laugh at, if you can't even laugh at yourself?

Gort
12-02-2010, 07:00 AM
And then "JohnGalt" proves my point about 3 posts later.

He creates an imaginary argument that no one actually ever said, and argues with his own imaginary argument as if that's accomplishing something.

I've never understood why people would want to debate fictional arguments.

Maybe that's what you do when you can't discuss the real issues.

oh yes. the OM is a debate site. i forgot. humor is strictly verboten!

get a sense of humor. you put too much stock in trying to convince ANONYMOUS people on an ANONYMOUS forum that you are right and they are wrong.

if you can't see the humor in that... well, then you've probably misplaced your funnybone.

and it's not the people finding humor in everything that have ruined the OM, it's pushy people demanding that the whole world agree with them.

BroncoBuff
12-02-2010, 07:09 AM
I would have like to see what a Cutler, Hillis, Marshall, Royal offense would have looked like by now with two more years of chemistry behind them.

Definitely.

TotallyScrewed
12-02-2010, 07:44 AM
Quote:




Quote:
<table border="0" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="alt2" style="border: 1px inset;"> Hillis is a rare talent. He went into Cleveland as a back up. He has done such an incredible job, the Browns starting RB is gone. </td> </tr> </tbody></table>
He was such a rare talent that he lasted until the seventh round in the draft. Couldn't have been that rare. I mean, if he was a once and a lifetime talent, you think he would have been thought of a lot higher by teams and talent evaluators around the league.

Terrell Davis was a sixth round pick and was overlooked by everyone including Shanahan who has been called an excellent judge of runningback talent. So it happens. I'm not saying Hillis is anything like TD other than they both run (ran) hard and didn't shy away from contact.

bowtown
12-02-2010, 07:47 AM
Well the big differnce is that Bobby Turner loved one of them and hated the other.

TotallyScrewed
12-02-2010, 07:53 AM
I would have like to see what a Cutler, Hillis, Marshall, Royal offense would have looked like by now with two more years of chemistry behind them.

Add in Shanahan and I'm right there with you. Under McD. I just don't know.

TotallyScrewed
12-02-2010, 07:57 AM
Yes Cleveland saw so much out of him that they traded Quinn and requested 2 picks in addition to Hillis. They also kept him at #2 on the depth chart until he was forced in by injury.

I'm pretty sure they lucked into what he's doing this year and their dominant run-blocking line sure hasn't hurt things.

Dude...everybody....Cleveland, Seattle, New England loves their trades with Denver...errr Josh. And if by lucky you mean lucky that Josh wanted something so bad he gave everything else away, then yeah, I agree.

TotallyScrewed
12-02-2010, 08:02 AM
The only reason Bronco "fans" liked that 13th round scrub was because of his skin color. Racist a-holes.

I'm thinking you need to add "Zing" into your name...Dr. Zing Broncenstein.

bowtown
12-02-2010, 08:10 AM
Dude...everybody....Cleveland, Seattle, New England loves their trades with Denver...errr Josh. And if by lucky you mean lucky that Josh wanted something so bad he gave everything else away, then yeah, I agree.

How do Chicago, Miami and Philly feel about them?

TotallyScrewed
12-02-2010, 08:53 AM
How do Chicago, Miami and Philly feel about them?

I think Chicago and Philly are pretty happy (= winning). Miami, not so much but they didn't have QB (Henne has a rating of 81 and 11 td's vs 12 int's) and don't have a QB (Thigpen = a 64 rating in 2010) so you get what you get there. I think we'd all be pretty happy if Denver was 6-5 at this point.

bowtown
12-02-2010, 09:03 AM
I think Chicago and Philly are pretty happy (= winning). Miami, not so much but they didn't have QB (Henne has a rating of 81 and 11 td's vs 12 int's) and don't have a QB (Thigpen = a 64 rating in 2010) so you get what you get there. I think we'd all be pretty happy if Denver was 6-5 at this point.

So trades are either good or bad based on whether your team is winning? Got it. So then you misspoke when you said that Detroit and Cleveland are happy with their trades with us, right?

Popps
12-02-2010, 09:05 AM
who can you laugh at, if you can't even laugh at yourself?

Absolutely can laugh at myself. I've made some horrible predictions around here over the years, as have most. In fact, more of my posts are levels than not.

As for debating, you simply wrote something that wasn't true. Debate is part of discussion. So, people may come to a forum to discuss... agree with... or debate people, or just have a laugh.

But, when you frame your joke or debate in a complete falsehood... it doesn't really do the conversation justice.

Now, after doing so... you're taking a high road and poo-poo'ing the nature of what we do here. Believe me, no one knows this stuff is all nonsense more than I do. It's a way to pass some time and have some fun. You won't find this stuff affecting my non-cyber life. But, that doesn't change the nature of what goes on when people are engaged in discourse, here.

Popps
12-02-2010, 09:07 AM
So trades are either good or bad based on whether your team is winning? Got it. So then you misspoke when you said that Detroit and Cleveland are happy with their trades with us, right?

Cleveland fans ARE happy, just because they've finally got something to root for. Hillis is fun to watch run. Someone said 40% of their offense is going through him. Not sure if that's true, but wouldn't doubt it.

But, at the end of the day... they're still Cleveland, and I've yet to see that Mangini is any sort of genius, despite seeming to figure out how to use Hillis when Shanahan and McDaniels couldn't.

broncocalijohn
12-02-2010, 10:55 AM
This might be the greatest thread in OM history. 10 years from now this thread will still be talked about, assuming it's still not in the front page then.

Well, in 10 years, we will be talking about Hillis, the future Great White HOF running back that got away because of McD. In fact, I will say that it is McD's fault and Popps for the bad vibes. Yes, Popps will be at fault for this one.

broncocalijohn
12-02-2010, 11:01 AM
No the line became dominant with 2 new players that were better than the old ones, as well as a highly drafted C improving from year 1 to year 2 all built around an all-pro LT.

The RB had very little to do with their improvement (not that they were bad last year anyway). He makes the most out of the holes they create because it allows him to build up a head of steam and destroy (or jump over when they try to go low) the secondary players that he outweighs by 50+ lbs.

It's a great combo, but that line deserves as much or more credit than Hillis does in the running game.

Well folks, we just found Popps second account. Holy crap! Here it is folks, its the line and not Hillis. I stand corrected, we didnt screw up this trade and lucky Browns how they traded a former 1st rounder for this piece of ****. thanks Popps, I mean misteranderson.

Taco John
12-02-2010, 11:10 AM
Cleveland fans ARE happy, just because they've finally got something to root for. Hillis is fun to watch run. Someone said 40% of their offense is going through him. Not sure if that's true, but wouldn't doubt it.

But, at the end of the day... they're still Cleveland, and I've yet to see that Mangini is any sort of genius, despite seeming to figure out how to use Hillis when Shanahan and McDaniels couldn't.


It's pretty funny to me in one post you chastize someone for spreading absurd falsehoods, and then in the VERY NEXT POST you spread the absurd falsehood that Shanahan couldn't figure out a way to use Hillis. You were pounding the table - POUNDING THE TABLE - that Shanahan has found our Runningback of the Future.

You are as bad as anyone here at spreading falsehoods, and you just got caught doing it again. Shanahan absolutely found a way to use Hillis, and if I need to, I'll dig up the archive of stuff you said yourself about it.

misturanderson
12-02-2010, 11:18 AM
Well folks, we just found Popps second account. Holy crap! Here it is folks, its the line and not Hillis. I stand corrected, we didnt screw up this trade and lucky Browns how they traded a former 1st rounder for this piece of ****. thanks Popps, I mean misteranderson.

It sure as **** is the line. Put Hillis behind our line and he wouldn't be in any more contention for the pro-bowl than Moreno is. You want to spin it any other way, be my guest, but you are absolutely wrong if you don't see why he is having such a good year (hint it's the giant holes that the line opens for him on almost every run in that hilight video of more than 3 yards). He is a great complement to that line because it plays into his strength of going all "Juggernaut" on the DBs, but without a line opening those holes he would just be average.

But then again I'm arguing with someone that already has him in the Hall of Fame, so I'll just stop now.

strafen
12-02-2010, 11:27 AM
It sure as **** is the line. Put Hillis behind our line and he wouldn't be in any more contention for the pro-bowl than Moreno is. You want to spin it any other way, be my guest, but you are absolutely wrong if you don't see why he is having such a good year (hint it's the giant holes that the line opens for him on almost every run in that hilight video of more than 3 yards). He is a great complement to that line because it plays into his strength of going all "Juggernaut" on the DBs, but without a line opening those holes he would just be average.

But then again I'm arguing with someone that already has him in the Hall of Fame, so I'll just stop now.

Hiilis is an impact player. He's not average, he's not just another player.
He's a freakin' specimen.
He'll kick ass no matther where he goes and no matter against who.
End of story...

broncocalijohn
12-02-2010, 11:27 AM
It sure as **** is the line. Put Hillis behind our line and he wouldn't be in any more contention for the pro-bowl than Moreno is. You want to spin it any other way, be my guest, but you are absolutely wrong if you don't see why he is having such a good year (hint it's the giant holes that the line opens for him on almost every run in that hilight video of more than 3 yards). He is a great complement to that line because it plays into his strength of going all "Juggernaut" on the DBs, but without a line opening those holes he would just be average.

But then again I'm arguing with someone that already has him in the Hall of Fame, so I'll just stop now.

look on you tube and see when he pounds the **** of of someone. No one said he would be a pro bowler behind our line. If you want to say it is the line and line only, you better start smacking the hell out of many HOF runnning backs currently in canton. Anytime we needed short yardage gain, Hillis would have been the best option. Proof is in the pudding except in your eyes.

loborugger
12-02-2010, 11:28 AM
I hear tell that Hillis is gonna come out tonight and run over Lebron as he returns to Cleveland for the big game tonite.

strafen
12-02-2010, 11:33 AM
It's pretty funny to me in one post you chastize someone for spreading absurd falsehoods, and then in the VERY NEXT POST you spread the absurd falsehood that Shanahan couldn't figure out a way to use Hillis. You were pounding the table - POUNDING THE TABLE - that Shanahan has found our Runningback of the Future.

You are as bad as anyone here at spreading falsehoods, and you just got caught doing it again. Shanahan absolutely found a way to use Hillis, and if I need to, I'll dig up the archive of stuff you said yourself about it.This thread epitomizes what popps is all about.
He's created this thread with the intention of passing himslef as someone that first posted some unsubstantiated revelations about a football player he thought he's hit paydirt on a story
He's talked out both ends here. He's alway hedges his posts in case he gets called on later on and say something like: "Hey, I did say Hillis is a great back I even said it here"
Or he will say that "Hillis wouldn't work out anywhere else, because he even said that here"
No matter how you confront popps, somehow he'd have it all covered, if you follow my drift..

Yup, that old Shanahan couldn't find a way to use Hillis is as pathetic as the man saying it...

Popps
12-02-2010, 11:56 AM
It's pretty funny to me in one post you chastize someone for spreading absurd falsehoods, and then in the VERY NEXT POST you spread the absurd falsehood that Shanahan couldn't figure out a way to use Hillis. .

First off, my quote about spreading falsehood revolved around posters creating imaginary arguments, not what coaches were doing.

And, Mike Shanahan DID NOT MAKE HILLIS THE STARTER OUT OF CHOICE.
He had an entire camp and plenty of practices to see the guy with the ball in his hand. He had a history of finding late round RBs and even tinkered with moving a back like Anderson from RB to FB to RB, etc. Shanahan started FIVE RBs in place of Hillis that season. It wasn't until injury forced his hand that he finally made Hillis the starter.

I mean, if you want to argue that... go ahead. Argue it with Mike Shanahan, who DID NOT make Hillis a starting RB until injury forced him to do so, and went to great lengths to start ANY OTHER RB over him.

When you can refute that with factual evidence, let us know. Hillis couldn't even keep A STARTING FB JOB under Shanahan, Taco. Why you're arguing against factual reality is hard to figure.


You are as bad as anyone here at spreading falsehoods, and you just got caught doing it again.


Incorrect. I praised Hillis' talents in the OP of this thread, and asked why he wasn't receiving more playing time under two different coaches. I provided a 3rd party account that might have given some explanation. (Is he a bad practice player?)

Nothing about this thread was "false." No one got "caught." I asked a question as to why Hillis wasn't producing for us and gave an article that had a theory. How is that getting "caught."

Again, this is a case of you creating something that wasn't said... and then making a case against it.

"Popps said the moon is made of green cheese and got caught"

No, I didn't.


Shanahan absolutely found a way to use Hillis, and if I need to, I'll dig up the archive of stuff you said yourself about it.

Sure, Shanahan used him when he was literally so desperate at RB, he was dragging guys like cooked crack and limpy Selvin Young out there. He "found a way" to use him when he had no other choice.

He never made Hillis a starter at RB until he had to.

As for you "digging up archives," feel free. You'll only reiterate the fact that I was a huge proponent of Hillis starting at RB, and that I praised his skills as early as anyone on this forum.

In fact, I called for McDaniels to at least let him share carries going into the 08 season. Of course, when you start out 6-0... the worry over individual players lessesn.

Again, I'm not sure why it would be fun to argue against something I didn't say. Wouldn't it be more challenging to actually take on what I DID say?

broncocalijohn
12-02-2010, 12:07 PM
Popps, you were a backer of Hillis but everyone knows you ditched him when it was your guy, McD, wasnt for him anymore. It was like, "If McD doesnt like him, then I no longer like him!" This is how it comes across and you can poll everyone here and they would almost unanimously agree on my post here. You turned a 180 on him. That is what has been seen here at the Mane.

Alos, stop bringing up the Shanahan last resort crap. Each running back before Hillis was producing. Even Pope had some great Yards per Average. Injuries got his turn to shine and he did.....like many that ran before him.

Popps
12-02-2010, 12:17 PM
Popps, you were a backer of Hillis but everyone knows you ditched him when it was your guy, McD, wasnt for him anymore. It was like, "If McD doesnt like him, then I no longer like him!" This is how it comes across

Uh huh. This is how it "came across." In fact, I never said that though... did I?
In fact, here are my own words from the OP...

-----
Being someone who thought he had starter written all over him, I found that tough to believe.

But, I read it in a few places... and then even received a PM from what seemed a reliable source with no reason to make anything up. I didn't discredit the info, but didn't buy into it completely, either.

Yet, two offensive masterminds chose not to make him a starter, despite what looks like good physical tools.

Again, I think Hillis has the physical tools to be productive, but this was an interesting read

----




Yea, sounds like I really "hated" the guy, huh?

So, my own words don't carry as much weight as how people misinterpreted them?


As for the Shanahan "last resort".... how can it be a "last resort" when it was in the ORIGINAL post? It was part of the original question in the first place.

Oh, and then there's the part about it being true... and pertinent to the question asked in the thread.


So, again... we can deal with facts and what was said, or we can just invent things. Either way.

bowtown
12-02-2010, 12:28 PM
It's pretty clear to me that Bobby Turner didn't like Peyton Hillis, which is why he convinced McDaniels to take what he considered "the total package" in Moreno (and who probably would be if healthy and still running in Turner's ZBS system, but that's a differnt argument). Turner is also a big practice guy and from what I've heard, Peyton does not shine in practice. I think he was in Turner's dog house all of last year.

Bronco Yoda
12-02-2010, 12:29 PM
Yep, Hillis is producing like a man on a mission, regardless of the looks or not. He is making the most out of his situation. Kudos to him on a Pro-Bowl caliber year. It is unfortunate we could not see that here.

We saw it (most of us did anyway). We were shouting it from the rooftops.

Only Coach idiot and a few of his followers didn't.

go_broncos
12-02-2010, 12:32 PM
It's pretty clear to me that Bobby Turner didn't like Peyton Hillis, which is why he convinced McDaniels to take what he considered "the total package" in Moreno (and who probably would be if healthy and still running in Turner's ZBS system, but that's a differnt argument). Turner is also a big practice guy and from what I've heard, Peyton does not shine in practice. I think he was in Turner's dog house all of last year.

Well..just blame everyone except Mcd..:rofl:

TotallyScrewed
12-02-2010, 12:35 PM
So trades are either good or bad based on whether your team is winning? Got it. So then you misspoke when you said that Detroit and Cleveland are happy with their trades with us, right?

You misquote me, for shame. I thought you asked how did these teams "feel" about their trades with Denver. I replied how I thought they might be feeling...happy with their team success.

I still think that Cleveland is overjoyed with their trade with Josh. At least I've yet to hear anything other than what I'm postulating. I'm sure they would be happier still to win more games but one man does not a team make.

I think that trades are either good or bad based on how the affect your team. In these cases, Denver mostly didn't improve and often didn't get equal talent in return.

bowtown
12-02-2010, 12:37 PM
Well..just blame everyone except Mcd..:rofl:

McD gets plenty of blame for giving Turner his RBOTF and then moving away from the system that he envisioned him in. He also gets the blame for knowing QBs better than RBs and perhaps allowing one of the NFLs best RB coaches to taint his initial judgements of Hillis. Ultimately the choice was his though, and he chose wrong.

TheReverend
12-02-2010, 12:39 PM
McD gets plenty of blame for giving Turner his RBOTF and then moving away from the system that he envisioned him in. He also gets the blame for knowing QBs better than RBs and perhaps allowing one of the NFLs best RB coaches to taint his initial judgements of Hillis. Ultimately the choice was his though, and he chose wrong.

Oh definitely.

I think after everything we've seen so far, McD certainly seems to be one who values and appreciates his subordinates' opinions.

TheReverend
12-02-2010, 12:43 PM
McD gets plenty of blame for giving Turner his RBOTF and then moving away from the system that he envisioned him in. He also gets the blame for knowing QBs better than RBs and perhaps allowing one of the NFLs best RB coaches to taint his initial judgements of Hillis. Ultimately the choice was his though, and he chose wrong.

I can picture it now:

Bobby: Hey, Josh, can I have a quick word?

Josh: Sure thing, Bobby, what do you need?

Bobby: Well, I've been looking at our RBs... and I know Hillis already has a year with me and was very successful on the field, but I was hoping we could get that fat kid that played for you after failing off the Raiders.

Josh: Lamont Jordan?

Bobby: Yeah... the black ewok.

Josh: Well, I really like Hillis, but you're boss when it comes to RBs! I'll have Brian get it done.

bowtown
12-02-2010, 12:46 PM
You misquote me, for shame. I thought you asked how did these teams "feel" about their trades with Denver. I replied how I thought they might be feeling...happy with their team success.

I still think that Cleveland is overjoyed with their trade with Josh. At least I've yet to hear anything other than what I'm postulating. I'm sure they would be happier still to win more games but one man does not a team make.

I think that trades are either good or bad based on how the affect your team. In these cases, Denver mostly didn't improve and often didn't get equal talent in return.

I didn't misquote you at all. I did ask how you thought those teams felt about their trades with Denver. Not how they "feel" in general about their season. I didn't ask you how they feel. How was I to know you were going to answer a question I didn't ask?

zdoor
12-02-2010, 12:53 PM
:thanku:I can picture it now:

Bobby: Hey, Josh, can I have a quick word?

Josh: Sure thing, Bobby, what do you need?

Bobby: Well, I've been looking at our RBs... and I know Hillis already has a year with me and was very successful on the field, but I was hoping we could get that fat kid that played for you after failing off the Raiders.

Josh: Lamont Jordan?

Bobby: Yeah... the black ewok.

Josh: Well, I really like Hillis, but you're boss when it comes to RBs! I'll have Brian get it done.

Classic....

bowtown
12-02-2010, 12:55 PM
I can picture it now:

Bobby: Hey, Josh, can I have a quick word?

Josh: Sure thing, Bobby, what do you need?

Bobby: Well, I've been looking at our RBs... and I know Hillis already has a year with me and was very successful on the field, but I was hoping we could get that fat kid that played for you after failing off the Raiders.

Josh: Lamont Jordan?

Bobby: Yeah... the black ewok.

Josh: Well, I really like Hillis, but you're boss when it comes to RBs! I'll have Brian get it done.

That's about how I see it, but I don't think Bobby liked him in 08 either. He was forced to use him. Maybe even resented him for being white.



Turns out wild baseless speculation is pretty easy!

go_broncos
12-02-2010, 12:59 PM
Mcd has ruined the team.
After he became our coach, it's like watching circus every day.
I never seen a new coach come in and trade/cut so many players.
After all the trades, we got worse players now.
Added to that, his play calling sucks.
At this point, it is better for bowlen to fire him in off season.

go_broncos
12-02-2010, 01:00 PM
That's about how I see it, but I don't think Bobby liked him in 08 either. He was forced to use him. Maybe even resented him for being white.



Turns out wild baseless speculation is pretty easy!

Whatever..Mcd is going to be fired and i will never forget the damage he has done to this franchise in short period of time.

Broncoman13
12-02-2010, 01:07 PM
Man, just imagine if McD would've caved to the pressure to play Hillis last year... may hhave converted some of those short yardage plays. I think McD learned though. At one point he didn't plan on using Tebow around the goal line. McD appears to learn from things and has shown he will make adjustments. Same with the downfield passing. If he is still coaching next year I would be surprised if we didn't have a much more dedicated running game. Seems like the biggest issue with it right now is his lack of patience with calling the run game...he abandons it too soon.

HAT
12-02-2010, 01:08 PM
Mcd has ruined the team.
After he became our coach, it's like watching circus every day.
I never seen a new coach come in and trade/cut so many players.
After all the trades, we got worse players now.
Added to that, his play calling sucks.
At this point, it is better for bowlen to fire him in off season.

Don't ever change g b.....Ever.

bowtown
12-02-2010, 01:10 PM
Mcd has ruined the team.
After he became our coach, it's like watching circus every day.
I never seen a new coach come in and trade/cut so many players.
After all the trades, we got worse players now.
Added to that, his play calling sucks.
At this point, it is better for bowlen to fire him in off season.

http://www.motifake.com/image/demotivational-poster/small/1005/tedium-child-bored-wheels-on-the-bus-demotivational-poster-1274691741.jpg

Popps
12-02-2010, 01:12 PM
That's about how I see it, but I don't think Bobby liked him in 08 either. He was forced to use him. Maybe even resented him for being white.



Turns out wild baseless speculation is pretty easy!

:rofl:

NOW, you're learning the Orange Mane way...

Ignore real argument > create straw man > argue against straw man.

Bronco Yoda
12-02-2010, 01:20 PM
Hillis is just retarded I say. just too stupid to play in our Mensa Offense.

:poke: :giggle:

Gort
12-02-2010, 01:21 PM
:rofl:

NOW, you're learning the Orange Mane way...

Ignore real argument > create straw man > argue against straw man.

Q: why wasn't peyton hillis given a fair chance under McD?

A: peyton hillis was given a chance. he got 13 carries over 16 games (ignoring real argument). i also heard from a reputable source that Hillis is dumb and he couldn't even get on the field for Shanny and Shanny know offensive talent (creating strawman). if he's so great, how come he couldn't get on the field with Shanny? (argue against strawman).

PS... nothing personal Popps. it's just that on this thread/topic you're such an easy target. too easy in fact. ;D

broncocalijohn
12-02-2010, 01:21 PM
You're preaching that your team needs to be disciplined and intelligent, but if someone is not... do you reward them with reps because they looked good for another coach in another system last year? I'm not saying I KNOW that's the case, but if you look at things circumstantially, it's a potential explanation. The one thing I'm 100% sure is... this is not some sort of petty nonsense by McDaniels. He's ruthlessly dedicate to fielding the best players. He's not afraid to look "foolish" if he believes in something, or did everyone forget about this entire offseason? Whatever is going on with Hillis goes deeper than what he looks like "with a ball in his hand." Again, hopefully it'll work out. It's in everyone's best interest that it does. Broncos fans would all like to see him earn his reps, I'm sure.

You want to still stick by that one in bold? LOL!


So, the question is... why can't Hillis earn those carries? What has he done to put himself in a position to have limited playing time with a coach who clearly illustrates a regular willingness to start the most productive player? The other thing is, the season isn't over. We'll likely see Hillis carry the ball. We're banged up, now... so like last year, he may get his chance. That said, I'm with the coach when he says that Franco Harris couldn't have gained a yard with the kind of penetration Indy was achieving. Hillis isn't the problem. Opening up a space for a runner to run through WAS the problem.
Wow, did anyone actually watch the press conference with the Hillis questioning? Very interesting. First off, one of the questions from the reporters was (verbatim) ... "are you hearing all of the yelling we're hearing about Peyton Hills... why is he in the doghouse?"So, we can rest the notion that this is something I or anyone on this board made up. It's been heavily speculated on for quite some time... and supported by circumstantial evidence from two coaches. Now, the coach's answer was... "no, he's not in the doghouse."He also said Hillis would have an "expanded role" if Buckhalter is out this week. (Which I'd expect.)He tackled the notion of Hillis moving to halfback and stated that he wouldn't move his fullback to halfback if he had only one healthy. That said, he did give Hillis a carry in the 2nd half. So, once again... there's more than meets the eye with the Hillis situation, whether people want to accept it or not. Hopefully we'll be able to run effectively this week, no matter who is running the ball for us.
So, if he wasn’t in the doghouse, why wasn’t he playing? Popps, mr conspiracy theorist, thinks it is something else (see below).
BUT, Popps finds the answer for us. Here it is. So, if McD says something, he is right and it is all on Hillis. Popps even gives props to McD for giving Hillis one ****ing carry in the 2<SUP>nd</SUP> half of the game. Now wasn’t that sweet of our coach?<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com<img src=" /><o:p></o:p>
(11/17)[I]Hillis wonders at times too, although he takes a large share of the blame. He was Denver’s leading rusher last season and played well in the preseason. Hillis’ role has been mostly insignificant since then, and reached a low point Sunday when he was a healthy scratch.“I’m disappointed right now the coaches don’t think I’m up to my standard,” Hillis said. “I have to rethink my motives and prepare myself harder.”

No one believes you Popps. McD had a theory and you were with him on it because if McD says so, he must be correct. I mean, McD hasnt made any mistakes so how can Hillis be a mistake?

If you really think you are correct on this, let us all vote on a poll and see if Popps changed on Hillis for the sake of McDaniels. Maybe someone has a better title for the post. I guarantee you it will be 90-10% in favor of your flip flop. While we all thought McD was nuts not to play Hillis, you stuck by McD.

Bronco Yoda
12-02-2010, 01:22 PM
:poke:

Bronco Yoda
12-02-2010, 01:24 PM
We need to print this thread off and send it to Bowlen as a Christmas card with love.

Popps
12-02-2010, 01:37 PM
[B][FONT=Calibri][SIZE=3]
While we all thought McD was nuts not to play Hillis, you stuck by McD.

Again, I was the one who posed the question... "why isn't Hillis playing" in the first place.

How can "you all not believe me"... when I'm the one who asked the question, and asked it based on Hillis' skill-set?

As for McDaniels making a mistake here, I'd clearly agree with that. But, I also know that Shanahan didn't make him a starter either, and there's some circumstantial evidence that he's not a great practice player and not a great blocker. Our system doesn't run 40% of its offense through one back, so McDaniels thought getting something for him was better than wasting him.

Now, in retrospect... it looks silly because Hillis has had such a nice season. At the time, we had much bigger concerns than tailback, and there was some logic to it.

Was it a mistake? Sure... to a dergree. Do all coaches make mistakes? Of course.

Did I ever "hate" Hillis?

No.

Did I ever campaign for us to get rid of him?

No.

Was I among the first to call for him to start?

Yes.

Was this thread a simple question as to why he wasn't getting more carries?

Yes.


Are you looking to create something that doesn't exist?


Of course.

colonelbeef
12-02-2010, 01:44 PM
It's pretty clear to me that Bobby Turner didn't like Peyton Hillis, which is why he convinced McDaniels to take what he considered "the total package" in Moreno (and who probably would be if healthy and still running in Turner's ZBS system, but that's a differnt argument). Turner is also a big practice guy and from what I've heard, Peyton does not shine in practice. I think he was in Turner's dog house all of last year.

lmao, now I've heard it all from the McShambles excuse makers

"It's Bobby Turner's fault"

you guys are shameless

Requiem
12-02-2010, 01:54 PM
I don't think anybody is blaming Turner, just pointing out the idea that he wasn't a fan of Hillis.

frerottenextelway
12-02-2010, 02:03 PM
"why isn't Hillis playing" in the first place.


Have any thoughts on Rod Smith or Ed McCaffrey?

broncocalijohn
12-02-2010, 02:06 PM
Popps, we all know you were a fan of Hillis...during the Shanny years. You were still a fan when McD got here and you wanted him to get his touches. There is video of what Hillis could do when given the opportunity. Once Hillis wasnt playing, you wanted to find out why this was. This is where you turned. While most here thought he needed to see the playing field more and get those short yardage needs at the goalline or for a first down, you went on McD protection mode. That is when it changed for you. Yes, we had much bigger concerns but getting rid of him for a back up QB shouldnt be one of them. Short yardage gains was a top 3 problem and we had it addressed with a guy already on our team and then McD ****ted that away.
At least two other things wrong with your response. One is "in retrospect". He already had the solution on our roster. There is no hindsight for this. We knew he had talent, we saw he had talent and McD wanted to be too damn stubborn to put him out there when needed. Second, you say it was a mistake (in getting rid of him or not using him) but then you add "to a degree". Say what? There is no degree on this. He ****ed up plain and simple. Proof is in the pudding.

Popps
12-02-2010, 02:36 PM
Have any thoughts on Rod Smith or Ed McCaffrey?

Yes... I think McCaffrey reminds me of Eric Decker.

Popps
12-02-2010, 02:43 PM
you went on McD protection mode. That is when it changed for you. Yes, we had much bigger concerns but getting rid of him for a back up QB shouldnt be one of them. Short yardage gains was a top 3 problem and we had it addressed with a guy already on our team and then McD ****ted that away.

Wrong.

When Hillis was out there getting stuffed, or fumbling kickoffs.. or false-starting... it was clear that he wasn't in the staff's good graces.

We couldn't run the ball because we couldn't block.

We're blocking fairly well the last few weeks, and miraculously... Moreno is looking just fine. (Outrushed Hillis over a 3 week period?)

Would Hillis have been good on short-yardage last year (or early this year) with 3 guys meeting him to take the hand-off? Unlikely. Hillis is a guy who works best when he can get a head of steam going. Hence, he's done great behind Cleveland's line and did great in the ZBS.

Would he do great here now? Maybe with our better blocking. But, I have a feeling Moreno would run well in Cleveland, too.

The bottom line is this... I liked the guy, I wish he was still here...but I'm not going to pine and mope about it for the rest of time. If you want to create a false argument and put words in my mouth to help you win that false argument, have at it.

frerottenextelway
12-02-2010, 02:51 PM
Yes... I think McCaffrey reminds me of Eric Decker.

You have to wonder why Spencer Larson has more receptions than Eric Decker.

Popps
12-02-2010, 02:53 PM
You have to wonder why Spencer Larson has more receptions than Eric Decker.

He's whiter?

Taco John
12-02-2010, 04:24 PM
And, Mike Shanahan DID NOT MAKE HILLIS THE STARTER OUT OF CHOICE.


So what? Mike Shanahan found a way to use Hillis. You said Mike Shanahan and Josh McDaniels never found a way to use Hillis. This is an absurd falsehood.

You can kick and cry and scream all you want that he didn't start him at the beginning of the season. It's an empty point that goes nowhere because he eventually did start him, and Hillis immediately became the featured piece of the offense that generated more excitement in Denver than any player has managed to since Terrell Davis.

Nobody expected a 7th round fullback to come in and start at tailback and be as electric as Hillis ended up being. It doesn't mean anything at all that Hillis didn't start the season at tailback. I can't even believe that you think you've got a point here.

Taco John
12-02-2010, 04:25 PM
We couldn't run the ball because we couldn't block.


...so what we did was start guys who can't break tackles over the guy who can bulldoze defenders.

Genius!

Popps
12-02-2010, 04:30 PM
...so what we did was start guys who can't break tackles over the guy who can bulldoze defenders.

Genius!

Moreno breaks tackles, dude. If you don't see it... you're not watching the games. Hillis is more of a bruiser, but Moreno has no problem breaking tackles.

go_broncos
12-02-2010, 04:35 PM
Moreno breaks tackles, dude. If you don't see it... you're not watching the games. Hillis is more of a bruiser, but Moreno has no problem breaking tackles.

:rofl:

Popps
12-02-2010, 04:35 PM
It's an empty point that goes nowhere because he eventually did start him.

Sure... he started him when he had almost no other choice. He never made him the starter at RB, and he couldn't even hold down the FB gig.

The point is not remotely "empty" when we're talking about two different coaches... neither of which viewed him as a starting RB.

Not just two coaches, but two very good OFFENSIVE coaches.

Shanahan ended up with Hillis taking RB carries by default, and that's the bottom line.

Hence, if you're going to criticize McDaniels... great. Criticize McDaniels for the same thing.

In fact, imagine if Shanahan would have simply inserted Hillis as the starter from day 1 in 2007. He'd probably still be our coach.

He didn't.

SOMETHING about Hillis gave Shanahan and McDaniels pause. Even Mangini didn't name him a starting RB after camp, or even a starting FB.

To Hillis' credit, he earned more reps as the season goes on... but that doesn't negate the point that THREE NFL COACHES neglected to make him a starting tailback.

Now, that's no accident. There's a reason. It may have been a bad reason, but there was a reason.

go_broncos
12-02-2010, 04:41 PM
<TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=5 width="100%"><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset" class=alt2>Originally Posted by go_broncos http://www.orangemane.com/BB/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?p=2211279#post2211279)
Tatum Bell, Selvin Young, Torrain all are soft.

The only RB that plays with heart is Hillis.
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
Posted by Popps before Mcd ignored Hills.

----
Hillis just has ability the others do not.

I honestly felt like our season was over when he went down. I hoped (hope) I was wrong, but we were just a completely different team when we could run on first down.

People here didn't want to believe it. I heard that we "wouldn't miss a beat" without him. ::)

I think we ran, what... twice in the entire second half? You guys think that's playoff football?

-----------

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?p=2211279#post2211279<!-- / message -->

go_broncos
12-02-2010, 04:46 PM
Popps..you don't have your own opinion. you blindly believe whatever our coach does.
Tomorrow..if Bowlen fires Mcd.you will say Mcd sucks.

strafen
12-02-2010, 04:50 PM
Sure... he started him when he had almost no other choice. He never made him the starter at RB, and he couldn't even hold down the FB gig.

The point is not remotely "empty" when we're talking about two different coaches... neither of which viewed him as a starting RB.

Not just two coaches, but two very good OFFENSIVE coaches.

Shanahan ended up with Hillis taking RB carries by default, and that's the bottom line.

Hence, if you're going to criticize McDaniels... great. Criticize McDaniels for the same thing.

In fact, imagine if Shanahan would have simply inserted Hillis as the starter from day 1 in 2007. He'd probably still be our coach.

He didn't.

SOMETHING about Hillis gave Shanahan and McDaniels pause. Even Mangini didn't name him a starting RB after camp, or even a starting FB.

To Hillis' credit, he earned more reps as the season goes on... but that doesn't negate the point that THREE NFL COACHES neglected to make him a starting tailback.

Now, that's no accident. There's a reason. It may have been a bad reason, but there was a reason.
You're so full of it, it ain't even funny!
Now, we're up to 3 coaches that neglected him as a starting back?
Especially Mangini who gave away a 1st round QB to get Hillis even though he was neglecting him.
Dude, you're so freaking ridiculous, you should stop now.
You're really making an ass out of yourself.

Look, Shanahan drafted Hillis as a FB. Hillis at best was going to be used as a typical FB.
Why are you so dense to think that Hillis had a chance to be the starting RB?
How stupid does that make you sound like?
Shanahan had their RB's fleet. Selvin Young, M. Pittman, Torrain, etc...
Shanahan wasn't thinking, hmm?! I have a 7th rounder FB I'm going to make my starting RB.
You're wrong,
And now onto McDaniels. McDaniels picked a RB (Moreno) with our first overall pick.

Now, was McDaniels going to sit his precious pick in favor of Hillis?
Hell no. He wasn't. McDaniels was heavily hammered for that pick.
And to tell you the truth, McDaniels KNEW Hillis will outperform his precious 12th rounder.
Everybody here knew that. That's why he never gave Hillis a fair shot to contribute other than 13 freaking carries the whole season!
Moreno's performance so far proves that!

Moreno has been an average at best running back. A dime a dozen type runner as there are all over the NFL...

A rookie headcoach in McDaniels screwed this one up in a big way.
This will be historic the more Hillis plays.

strafen
12-02-2010, 04:51 PM
<TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=5 width="100%"><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset" class=alt2>Originally Posted by go_broncos http://www.orangemane.com/BB/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?p=2211279#post2211279)
Tatum Bell, Selvin Young, Torrain all are soft.

The only RB that plays with heart is Hillis.
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
Posted by Popps before Mcd ignored Hills.

----
Hillis just has ability the others do not.

I honestly felt like our season was over when he went down. I hoped (hope) I was wrong, but we were just a completely different team when we could run on first down.

People here didn't want to believe it. I heard that we "wouldn't miss a beat" without him. ::)

I think we ran, what... twice in the entire second half? You guys think that's playoff football?

-----------

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?p=2211279#post2211279<!-- / message -->That's popps right htere.
Now he's talking out of his other end.
He's versatile...

Popps
12-02-2010, 04:55 PM
Gotta love ignore. The cyber trash dump...

:thumbs:

frerottenextelway
12-02-2010, 05:23 PM
You have to question Elway. His first team traded him, his second coach wanted to trade him and his third coach was fired after two years with him.

This is a fun game, you can do it with half the stars in the league.

Popps
12-02-2010, 05:26 PM
You have to question Elway. His first team traded him, his second coach wanted to trade him and his third coach was fired after two years with him.

This is a fun game, you can do it with half the stars in the league.

Elway never stepped on the field for the Colts.

Otherwise, the Hills/Elway comparison is a perfect one.

::)

(By the way, we got the joke the first two times you told it.)

Gort
12-02-2010, 05:27 PM
You have to question Elway. His first team traded him, his second coach wanted to trade him and his third coach was fired after two years with him.

This is a fun game, you can do it with half the stars in the league.

this post warrants a "bazinga" animated gif. :)

frerottenextelway
12-02-2010, 05:29 PM
Elway never stepped on the field for the Colts.

Otherwise, the Hills/Elway comparison is a perfect one.

::)

(By the way, we got the joke the first two times you told it.)

You're welcomed to address the point of it if you want.

strafen
12-02-2010, 05:58 PM
I don't think anybody is blaming Turner, just pointing out the idea that he wasn't a fan of Hillis.

And where did you hear that?
Here on the Mane? :rofl:

Popps
12-02-2010, 06:00 PM
You're welcomed to address the point of it if you want.

If there was one, I'd be happy to.

Comparing John Elway to Peyton Hillis hardly qualifies as a "point."

I hope I don't have to explain.

strafen
12-02-2010, 06:10 PM
Moreno breaks tackles, dude. If you don't see it... you're not watching the games. Hillis is more of a bruiser, but Moreno has no problem breaking tackles.

My goodness, this is just too funny. Not sure you're serious... Ha!

frerottenextelway
12-02-2010, 06:13 PM
If there was one, I'd be happy to.

Comparing John Elway to Peyton Hillis hardly qualifies as a "point."

I hope I don't have to explain.

Why did Rod Smith not get drafted, get cut by New England and not start until his third year in Denver? Does that make him less of a player in your eyes?

A criticism of Hillis would be that he fumbles too often, but criticizing him because he didn't start until he started is a joke.

And if you really wanted an "answer", its Captain Obvious level. Hillis was a 7th round rookie coming from a college where he wasn't a feature Halfback.

Dr. Broncenstein
12-02-2010, 06:41 PM
Please bear in mind that one can only use a low-round draft status against Hillis. In this example, a seventh round draft status implies a lack of talent and/or ability. Bronco greats that randomly come to my mind such as Mecklenburg, Nalen, Sharpe, Davis, and Smith... to name a few... cannot be used to exemplify the meaninglessness of draft status as it pertains to this thread. 32 teams passed on Hillis at least six times during the 2008 draft, and therefore he really had no business in this league. His success is to date is only because of dominant run blocking, which miraculously vanishes in Cleveland the instant he steps off the field. His receiving skills are an unnecessary luxury as evidenced by the flypaper hands of Maroney and Buckhalter. The guy totally blows in 1 on 1 drills against D'Qwell Jackson. Did I mention he is only popular because he fits in with a certain ethnicity?

Popps
12-02-2010, 06:43 PM
Why did Rod Smith not get drafted, get cut by New England and not start until his third year in Denver? Does that make him less of a player in your eyes?


Horrific analogy.


Rod Smith didn't have an NFL highlight reel that had fans drooling on YouTube.
He was an unknown.

Hillis PROVED he had talent. It was obvious. We all saw it.

Smith played for a tiny college.

Hillis played for a major program, and had a decorated college career along side a well-know back.


If Rod Smith would have had a great year.... and then been benched the next season, sure... I think we all would have been asking why.

But, that didn't happen... and the two circumstances couldn't be much different, which is why it's a horrible analogy.


Let me help you out, though... if you're using these bad analogies and short-falling jokes to illustrate the point that coaches can make mistakes, you're not really treading on any new ground. I think that's obvious. I also think we've all pretty much agreed we wished Hillis was still here. That's pretty obvious.

You're just another guy who wants to argue, but you're not really sure what you're arguing about.

go_broncos
12-02-2010, 06:48 PM
Popps still thinks Hillis is dumb..

DBroncos4life
12-02-2010, 06:49 PM
You want to still stick by that one in bold? LOL!



So, if he wasn’t in the doghouse, why wasn’t he playing? Popps, mr conspiracy theorist, thinks it is something else (see below).
BUT, Popps finds the answer for us. Here it is. So, if McD says something, he is right and it is all on Hillis. Popps even gives props to McD for giving Hillis one ****ing carry in the 2<SUP>nd</SUP> half of the game. Now wasn’t that sweet of our coach?<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com<img src=" /><o:p></o:p>


No one believes you Popps. McD had a theory and you were with him on it because if McD says so, he must be correct. I mean, McD hasnt made any mistakes so how can Hillis be a mistake?

If you really think you are correct on this, let us all vote on a poll and see if Popps changed on Hillis for the sake of McDaniels. Maybe someone has a better title for the post. I guarantee you it will be 90-10% in favor of your flip flop. While we all thought McD was nuts not to play Hillis, you stuck by McD.100% spot on about popps

frerottenextelway
12-02-2010, 06:53 PM
Horrific analogy.


Rod Smith didn't have an NFL highlight reel that had fans drooling on YouTube.
He was an unknown.

Hillis PROVED he had talent. It was obvious. We all saw it.

Smith played for a tiny college.

Hillis played for a major program, and had a decorated college career along side a well-know back.


If Rod Smith would have had a great year.... and then been benched the next season, sure... I think we all would have been asking why.

But, that didn't happen... and the two circumstances couldn't be much different, which is why it's a horrible analogy.


Let me help you out, though... if you're using these bad analogies and short-falling jokes to illustrate the point that coaches can make mistakes, you're not really treading on any new ground. I think that's obvious. I also think we've all pretty much agreed we wished Hillis was still here. That's pretty obvious.

You're just another guy who wants to argue, but you're not really sure what you're arguing about.

If everyone else is going the other way on a one-way street, you might want to give some thought that it's you who is going the wrong way.

Popps
12-02-2010, 06:57 PM
If everyone else is going the other way on a one-way street, you might want to give some thought that it's you who is going the wrong way.

Good advice if there was an actual point of contention.

People are angry, and I provide an easy scapegoat for them. Fine by me, obviously. I play along.

Hey, I wish Hillis was still here, too. I simply asked a question and tried to put some pieces of a puzzle together. I did nothing different than the mainstream media... who hounded McD as to why Hillis wasn't playing.

But, the people here have turned it into... "Popps hated Hillis."

As I said, if you stick to what really happened... there's really nothing to even argue about. We're all pretty much in agreement that it would have been cool for him to stay.

broncocalijohn
12-02-2010, 06:57 PM
Moreno breaks tackles, dude. If you don't see it... you're not watching the games. Hillis is more of a bruiser, but Moreno has no problem breaking tackles.

He couldnt do it last year and we gave him ample opportunities in 2009. Hillis got very few chances and when he fumbled he was put to pasture. Stubborn McDaniels did the same thing this weekend when Moreno fumbled.

Popps
12-02-2010, 06:58 PM
But, I do freely admit to giving McDaniels credit for having a reason for not playing him... same credit I gave Shanahan for doing the same, and the same credit I gave Mangini for not making him a starter at either position.

Turns out, they were all wrong.

broncocalijohn
12-02-2010, 06:59 PM
As I said, if you stick to what really happened... there's really nothing to even argue about. We're all pretty much in agreement that it would have been cool for him to stay.

What really happened was McDaniels traded him and many were pissed off except we know you werent pissed. Your reasoning is something is wrong with him because McDaniels says so and you are going with McDaniels.
That is pretty much how it goes in two sentences.

Popps
12-02-2010, 06:59 PM
He couldnt do it last year and we gave him ample opportunities in 2009. Hillis got very few chances and when he fumbled he was put to pasture. Stubborn McDaniels did the same thing this weekend when Moreno fumbled.

Agree with you 100%, here regarding Sunday. Our play-calling sucked ass.
We abandoned the run and it cost us the game, imo.

More Sundays like that... and I'll be joining the haters club with the rest of you.
That was awful.

As for last year, it was more a blocking issue than play-calling. Same for the earlier part of this year. The line looks like it's gelling, and as many of us predicted... once that happened, Moreno has run very well.

But, for the 100th time... it would be great to have both of them here.

broncogary
12-02-2010, 07:00 PM
But, I do freely admit to giving McDaniels credit for having a reason for not playing him... same credit I gave Shanahan for doing the same, and the same credit I gave Mangini for not making him a starter at either position.

Turns out, they were all wrong.

They need to watch more football. :pimp:

Popps
12-02-2010, 07:00 PM
What really happened was McDaniels traded him and many were pissed off except we know you werent pissed..

So, you were pissed that I wasn't pissed enough?

:rofl:

Didn't know I had that kind of power over you. Pretty cool!

:thumbs:

WolfpackGuy
12-02-2010, 07:00 PM
He couldnt do it last year and we gave him ample opportunities in 2009. Hillis got very few chances and when he fumbled he was put to pasture. Stubborn McDaniels did the same thing this weekend when Moreno fumbled.

Don't forget it was on a KICKOFF!

Slowness fumbles every other game.

Popps
12-02-2010, 07:01 PM
reasoning is something is wrong with him because 2 great offensive coaches declined to make him a starter at either position... so and you are going with McDaniels.
That is pretty much how it goes in two sentences.

Fixed.

Popps
12-02-2010, 07:02 PM
Gotta run, guys. It's been fun.

I'll check back in around 200 pages and see if the whining and story-telling has made Hillils come back...

frerottenextelway
12-02-2010, 07:11 PM
But, I do freely admit to giving McDaniels credit for having a reason for not playing him... same credit I gave Shanahan for doing the same, and the same credit I gave Mangini for not making him a starter at either position.

Turns out, they were all wrong.

Has a 7th round rookie blocker ever started as the feature back in NFL history? I think Hillis may be the first, but I could be forgetting someone. That's why your "comparison" is painful.

McD is the only one who missed the boat here. He also struck gold in Lloyd and did okay with a couple of others. Just call it like it is.

broncocalijohn
12-02-2010, 07:23 PM
But, I do freely admit to giving McDaniels credit for having a reason for not playing him... same credit I gave Shanahan for doing the same, and the same credit I gave Mangini for not making him a starter at either position.

Turns out, they were all wrong.

Popps how many times do we have to explain it; Once Shanahan put him on the field, he succeeded. Shanahan played him and started him every game once he became the starting RB. Shanahan had no film of Hillis except in college and most of that was at FB. McD had film and the knowledge of what Hillis could do yet pretty much ignored it. While there were fumbles made by Hillis, you dont throw out the baby with the bath water. That is what he did for our short yardage situations.

broncocalijohn
12-02-2010, 07:25 PM
So, you were pissed that I wasn't pissed enough?

:rofl:

Didn't know I had that kind of power over you. Pretty cool!

:thumbs:

I guess reading wasnt at sober level for you. We, fans of Hillis, were pissed he got traded. You didnt care and since McD did it, you were fine with it and defended his reasoning for it. Clear now?

BTW, how does Popps rationalize his love boy McD for screwing this up by bringing up Shanahan? Last time I looked, Shanahan didnt trade Hillis for a third string QB....and a draft pick.

go_broncos
12-02-2010, 07:26 PM
Popps how many times do we have to explain it; Once Shanahan put him on the field, he succeeded. Shanahan played him and started him every game once he became the starting RB. Shanahan had no film of Hillis except in college and most of that was at FB. McD had film and the knowledge of what Hillis could do yet pretty much ignored it. While there were fumbles made by Hillis, you dont throw out the baby with the bath water. That is what he did for our short yardage situations.

It's waste to argue with him..Just, see what he says once Mcd gets fired.

zdoor
12-02-2010, 07:38 PM
I don't think anybody is blaming Turner, just pointing out the idea that he wasn't a fan of Hillis.

That's a stretch... There hasn't been any real reference to Turner not liking the guy... Most of the comments were made sarcastically...

zdoor
12-02-2010, 07:45 PM
Please bear in mind that one can only use a low-round draft status against Hillis. In this example, a seventh round draft status implies a lack of talent and/or ability. Bronco greats that randomly come to my mind such as Mecklenburg, Nalen, Sharpe, Davis, and Smith... to name a few... cannot be used to exemplify the meaninglessness of draft status as it pertains to this thread. 32 teams passed on Hillis at least six times during the 2008 draft, and therefore he really had no business in this league. His success is to date is only because of dominant run blocking, which miraculously vanishes in Cleveland the instant he steps off the field. His receiving skills are an unnecessary luxury as evidenced by the flypaper hands of Maroney and Buckhalter. The guy totally blows in 1 on 1 drills against D'Qwell Jackson. Did I mention he is only popular because he fits in with a certain ethnicity?

Apparently it's impossible that he didn't start for Shanny due to the fact that he was a raw 7th rounder and hadn't played the HB position for several years... It's now factual that he would have been relegated back to backup status had Shanny stayed because, you know, Shanny wasn't impressed by his stint as a starter... And of course Turner didn't like him, you know because he's a honky...

WolfpackGuy
12-02-2010, 07:45 PM
That's a stretch... There hasn't been any real reference to Turner not liking the guy... Most of the comments were made sarcastically...

Good thing Turner left before the Broncos stole Maroney from the Pats.

I think he might've strangled that dancing queen.

zdoor
12-02-2010, 07:48 PM
Good thing Turner left before the Broncos stole Maroney from the Pats.

I think he might've strangled that dancing queen.

Yup, although he may have overlooked it because he's black...

go_broncos
12-02-2010, 07:51 PM
Good thing Turner left before the Broncos stole Maroney from the Pats.

I think he might've strangled that dancing queen.

Good thing Turner left otherwise Mcd lover's would have blamed him for picking Maroney.

Requiem
12-02-2010, 08:02 PM
31 teams passing on Hillis in the draft doesn't necessarily imply a lack of talent, but it certainly shows that most people weren't interested in selecting him for their team or didn't have faith in his abilities. Was he going to be a running back at the NFL level or was he going to be a fullback? He had some position ambiguity, just like he did at Arkansas when he got moved when McFadden and Jones showed more promise at the collegiate level. Quite frankly, (reported numerous times) a lot of people through the evaluation process seemed to have a problem with his attitude and actions regarding how he could handle that type of switch or coaching at the next level.

Look at the misfortunes that had to happen both here and in Cleveland for him to even get an opportunity to see the field.

And please, spare us the late-round comparisons to players who are All-Time Greats at their positions to Peyton. He shouldn't even be mentioned in the same breath as Karl, Terrell and Rod. Talk about draft position and irrelevancy. There are always players who get passed up that have successful NFL careers. Hillis isn't the first and isn't the last.

It will be interesting to see what he can do as his career progresses in Cleveland, but I highly doubt Hall of Fame consideration is in his future.

Inkana7
12-02-2010, 08:04 PM
Good thing Turner left otherwise Mcd lover's would have blamed him for picking Maroney.

What?

Taco John
12-02-2010, 08:12 PM
No matter how long this thread gets, McDaniels is always going to be the moron who traded Peyton Hillis and two draft picks for Brady Quinn.


Holmgren RRRRRRRRRRRAPED McDaniels.

Don Flamenco
12-02-2010, 08:26 PM
Not only that, he's the moron that didn't even play Hillis at all. And Popps and his minion of morons here was actually believeing it was a good decisicion to play Lamont Jordan over Hillis. Lamont ****ing Jordan

strafen
12-02-2010, 08:40 PM
It's waste to argue with him..Just, see what he says once Mcd gets fired.

Most likely he'll say he's been on record by saying something like...he knew that was coming, he was ready for another coach, and he really thought McD made too many mistakes, and that he wasn't much of a fan of his, he was just supporting him because he was the headcoach of our team, and that's what true fans do...

strafen
12-02-2010, 08:41 PM
Agree with you 100%, here regarding Sunday. Our play-calling sucked ass.
We abandoned the run and it cost us the game, imo.

More Sundays like that... and I'll be joining the haters club with the rest of you.
That was awful.

As for last year, it was more a blocking issue than play-calling. Same for the earlier part of this year. The line looks like it's gelling, and as many of us predicted... once that happened, Moreno has run very well.

But, for the 100th time... it would be great to have both of them here.Hedging...

UltimateHoboW/Shotgun
12-02-2010, 09:56 PM
This thread epitomizes what popps is all about.
He's created this thread with the intention of passing himslef as someone that first posted some unsubstantiated revelations about a football player he thought he's hit paydirt on a story
He's talked out both ends here. He's alway hedges his posts in case he gets called on later on and say something like: "Hey, I did say Hillis is a great back I even said it here"
Or he will say that "Hillis wouldn't work out anywhere else, because he even said that here"
No matter how you confront popps, somehow he'd have it all covered, if you follow my drift..

Yup, that old Shanahan couldn't find a way to use Hillis is as pathetic as the man saying it...

rep.

BroncoBuff
12-03-2010, 05:14 AM
And of course Turner didn't like him, you know because he's a honky...

He reminds me of John Riggins.

broncogary
12-03-2010, 05:22 AM
He reminds me of John Riggins.

Hey, Buff, check your PM's.

bowtown
12-03-2010, 06:12 AM
He reminds me of John Riggins.

I've been saying this for years. He's like the white football version of John Riggins.

Pony Boy
12-03-2010, 06:41 AM
I've been saying this for years. He's like the white football version of John Riggins.

I think John Riggins is the white version of John Riggins

BroncoBuff
12-03-2010, 08:49 AM
31 teams passing on Hillis in the draft doesn't necessarily imply a lack of talent.

Correct. He was selected by hands down the best Day 2 draft boss in the league.

And we canned him :(

BroncoBuff
12-03-2010, 08:52 AM
We canned Hillis too :(

bowtown
12-03-2010, 08:52 AM
Correct. He was selected by hands down the best Day 2 draft boss in the league.

And we canned him :(

[Raises hand] Can you show me some analysis to support that claim?

Taco John
12-03-2010, 09:11 AM
[Raises hand] Can you show me some analysis to support that claim?

He has before, actually...

BroncoBuff
12-03-2010, 09:28 AM
Off the top of my head bow, barring late developments: Of the 20 players Goodman drafted in his three years starting way back in '06?

Only one is out of the league now.

That's right, one. Greg Eslinger.

Is that enough, or you want I should research it more?

bowtown
12-03-2010, 09:42 AM
Off the top of my head bow, barring late developments: Of the 20 players Goodman drafted in his three years starting way back in '06?

Only one is out of the league now.

That's right, one. Greg Eslinger.

Is that enough, or you want I should research it more?

Well it's certainly a nice but small sample. I'd love to see it stacked up against some other people.

broncocalijohn
12-03-2010, 09:47 AM
Well it's certainly a nice but small sample. I'd love to see it stacked up against some other people.

You kidding me? He goes back 4 years with draft Day 2 picks that will be great if you can fetch 2 that stick and this goes back not one year but 4 and you think a comparison to other GMs is going to produce the same numbers? Popps isnt coming back until page 200 and you might want to take up the same offer. Really?

lostknight
12-03-2010, 10:03 AM
Well it's certainly a nice but small sample. I'd love to see it stacked up against some other people.

The average NFL career lasts around 4 years. That's a pretty outstanding population.

Homer Simpson
12-03-2010, 10:22 AM
I've been saying this for years. He's like the white football version of John Riggins.

He's not as dreamy as Tim Riggins though.

http://ninaherenorthere.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/tim-football.jpg

BroncoBuff
12-03-2010, 10:56 AM
You kidding me? He goes back 4 years with draft Day 2 picks that will be great if you can fetch 2 that stick and this goes back not one year but 4 and you think a comparison to other GMs is going to produce the same numbers? Popps isnt coming back until page 200 and you might want to take up the same offer. Really?

Exactly ... Requiem and I had a research session several months ago. The Giants I think were closest, but still, several guys were gone, especially as far back as '06 ... if you want to research, jump to '06 first.

It's telling to note: The players Jim Goodman drafted in '06 and '07 are now PAST THE AVERAGE LENGTH of an NFL career.

I'll grant you several of these guys are lunch pail types, but like I discussed with Drek one day - the most basic challenge when drafting is to identify guys who will rise to an threshold level of toughness for the NFL. Lots of draftees just can't hack the steep curve, I guess you'd say they're not tough enough.

I don't know how Goodman does it, and I don't know why he's unemployed, but I'm a believer.

broncocalijohn
12-03-2010, 11:00 AM
Getting rid of the Goodmans was horrible and one of the bright spots that happened in the late 2000s. Great research and epic failure on bowtown's part.

BroncoBuff
12-03-2010, 11:09 AM
Great example of the steep curve between College and the NFL:

1 - Nick Mangold and Greg Eslinger were in the same draft class.

2 - Mangold is probably the best center in the league now, while Eslinger is in chiropractic school, last I heard.

3 - AND YET: Eslinger (a lowly Gopher) beat out Mangold (a vaunted Buckeye) in both their junior and senior seasons for All Big 10, beat him for All America I think twice, and topped him for the Rimington Award as seniors. Eslinger ALSO won the Outland Trophy. And he's in chiropractic school now. That's your curve, and that's what Goodman does - he identifies players who will meet the NFL threshold level.


Let's all admire, shall we?

http://img600.imageshack.us/img600/3531/goodman.jpg


Counting Hillis, that's five Pro-Bowlers in three years (though Cutler deserves an asterisk).

Gutless Drunk
12-03-2010, 11:21 AM
No Broncos GM likely; Jim Goodman gets final say
By Jeff Legwold, Rocky Mountain News (Contact)
Published January 12, 2009 at 8:52 p.m.

ENGLEWOOD — With his new coach now in place, Broncos owner Pat Bowlen re-affirmed his intention Monday to keep the team's personnel department intact and not add a general manger to the top of the flow chart.

Bowlen had said when he fired Mike Shanahan that the new coach would not have final say on personnel matters, but once the new coach was hired, he might look at adding a general manager.

Asked Monday, during the introductory news conference for coach Josh McDaniels, if he now planned to hire a general manager, Bowlen said: "Right now, we've hired a head coach. I have no plans to hire anybody else."

Bowlen said he would consider adding people to the personnel department in various capacities if it was something McDaniels thought the team needed to do at some point, but as far as the final word on personnel, it now falls to Jim Goodman, the Broncos' vice president football operations/personnel.

Goodman, along with assistant general managers Brian Xanders and Jeff Goodman, will oversee the team's college scouting staff, pro personnel staff and salary cap management team.

"I'm obviously flattered and appreciate the confidence (Bowlen) puts in me," Jim Goodman said. "We're gong to try to do the best job we can to pick the players that help Josh win. And I think we've done a pretty good job of that the last three years. So we're just going to continue with that."

That was a point Jim Goodman made in each of the interviews with the seven candidates who interviewed for the job. He pledged to each the team's personnel department would make sure things work smoothly with the coaching staff to find players to fit the schemes the coaches want to play on both sides of the ball.

The Broncos have nine picks in the April draft, and their scouts are set to begin attending the college all-star games as well as on-campus workouts for this year's prospects in the coming weeks.

Asked Monday if a difference of opinions were to arise when it came time to draft a player or sign a free agent - such decisions once fell to Shanahan - McDaniels said Goodman would break the deadlock. But Goodman and McDaniels said they hoped to have as few disagreements as possible.

"Jim will make the call if there is an issue in terms of personnel," McDaniels said.

"I think we have all the talent we need in that area, and I don't intend to change that structure around (McDaniels) . . . ," Bowlen said. "We're embarking on a new course here with what I consider a great new football coach.

"I'm sure we'll have plenty of conversations about a lot of things. . . . But I like what we have in place

Dr. Broncenstein
12-03-2010, 11:32 AM
Owned.

bowtown
12-03-2010, 11:33 AM
You kidding me? He goes back 4 years with draft Day 2 picks that will be great if you can fetch 2 that stick and this goes back not one year but 4 and you think a comparison to other GMs is going to produce the same numbers? Popps isnt coming back until page 200 and you might want to take up the same offer. Really?

Wow, awfully angry about this huh? I just asked for a little further anaylsis, and yes I do think an analysis compared to other GMs might produce the same numbers, or even better. Remember the earliest of these drafts was 4 years ago, and if you take into account that the average career for a fooball player is 4 years than many of guys taken from '06 to '09 are still going to be in the league, if that's what you are using as your measuring stick. His numbers also don't take into account how few low round picks (and picks in general) Goodman had in those three years, which means more of his picks could be considered "higher percentage."

I actually did go do some digging. I picked the Green Bay Packers, because I think they are a very good draftng team, and looked at them for the same time period. I just used 2nd day picks (Rounds 3-7) because nearly all 1st and 2nd ropund picks are still in the league and because Buff said that Goodman was the Best Day 2 guy "hands down."

Here is what I came up with:

Broncos:
'06 -
3rds: 0
4ths : 3 (all still in the league)
5ths: 1 (No)
6ths: 1 (Yes)
7ths: 0

'07
3rds: 1 (Yes)
4ths: 1 (Yes)
5ths: 0
6ths: 0
7ths: 0

'08
3rds: 0
4ths: 2 (Yes)
5ths: 2 (Yes/No) -Powell is not in the NFL anymore
6ths: 1 (Yes)
7ths: 2 (Yes)

Totals:
3rds: 1 (Yes)
4ths: 6 (Yes)
5ths: 3 (Nox2/Yes)
6ths: 2 (Yes)
7ths: 2 (Yes)

That's 2 no's out of 14 picks: 86%

Green Bay:
06
3rd: 2 (Yes)
4th: 2 (No/Yes)
5th: 2 (No/Yes)
6th: 2 (Yes)
7th: 1 (Yes)

07
3rd: 2 - (Yes/Yes)
4th: 1 - (Yes)
5th: 1 - (Yes)
6th: 3 - (Yes/Yes/Yes)
7th: 2 - (Yes/Yes)

08
3rd: 1 - (Yes)
4th: 2 - (No/Yes)
5th: 1 - (Yes)
6th: 0
7th: 2 - (Yes/Yes)

Totals:
3rds: 5 (Yes)
4ths: 5 (Nox2/Yesx3)
5ths: 4 (No/Yesx2)
6ths: 5 (Yesx5)
7ths: 5 (Yesx5)

That's 3 no's out of 24 picks: 88%

So, Ted Thompson picked 10 more players, that's 10 more players that could have busted, and twice as many after round 4, yet he still has a slightly higher success rate (again this is assuming that "still in the league" is your measuring stick).

I'm not trying to knock the Goodmans, I think they had 1 excellent draft one very good draft and one below average draft. I'm just saying that a three year sample size, only four years out, is not proof that they are the best "hands down."

misturanderson
12-03-2010, 11:36 AM
No Broncos GM likely; Jim Goodman gets final say
By Jeff Legwold, Rocky Mountain News (Contact)
Published January 12, 2009 at 8:52 p.m.

ENGLEWOOD — With his new coach now in place, Broncos owner Pat Bowlen re-affirmed his intention Monday to keep the team's personnel department intact and not add a general manger to the top of the flow chart...
What a colossal **** up that whole situation turned out to be.

colonelbeef
12-03-2010, 11:41 AM
Great example of the steep curve between College and the NFL:

1 - Nick Mangold and Greg Eslinger were in the same draft class.

2 - Mangold is probably the best center in the league now, while Eslinger is in chiropractic school, last I heard.

3 - AND YET: Eslinger (a lowly Gopher) beat out Mangold (a vaunted Buckeye) in both their junior and senior seasons for All Big 10, beat him for All America I think twice, and topped him for the Rimington Award as seniors. Eslinger ALSO won the Outland Trophy. And he's in chiropractic school now. That's your curve, and that's what Goodman does - he identifies players who will meet the NFL threshold level.


Let's all admire, shall we?

http://img600.imageshack.us/img600/3531/goodman.jpg


Counting Hillis, that's five Pro-Bowlers in three years (though Cutler deserves an asterisk).

And a handful of solid pros as well.

That is an unreal series of drafts

WolfpackGuy
12-03-2010, 11:48 AM
Eslinger was also a lot cheaper than Mangold...

HAT
12-03-2010, 11:52 AM
Counting Hillis, that's five Pro-Bowlers in three years (though Cutler deserves an asterisk).

When did Hillis go to the Pro Bowl?

:poke:

BroncoBuff
12-03-2010, 12:09 PM
Don't follow your numbers 100% bow, but this is the Packers '06 draft ...

Red arrows, out of the league. Yellow, was out this year ... Panthers signed him couple weeks ago to fill injured Dan Connor's spot.



http://img716.imageshack.us/img716/9469/packu.jpg

bowtown
12-03-2010, 12:15 PM
Don't follow your numbers 100% bow, but this is the Packers '06 draft ...

Red arrows, out of the league. Yellow, was out this year ... Panthers signed him couple weeks ago to fill injured Dan Connor's spot.



http://img716.imageshack.us/img716/9469/packu.jpg

Right,

So Hodge is not out of the league. Jolly is currently suspended but will be on a team in 2011, so if you want to change one of the 6ths to a no, that's fine. The other 2 I got.

BroncoBuff
12-03-2010, 12:16 PM
When did Hillis go to the Pro Bowl?

:poke:

Okay, just checked and I did jump the gun.

He's 2nd in the league in TDs, but just 6th in the AFC in rushing.

He is within 85 yards of #3 and 115 of #2 though.

SonOfLe-loLang
12-03-2010, 12:18 PM
My boss just bought a fathead for her office door. So now I will have to stare at Hillis all....day....long.

colonelbeef
12-03-2010, 01:11 PM
Right,

So Hodge is not out of the league. Jolly is currently suspended but will be on a team in 2011, so if you want to change one of the 6ths to a no, that's fine. The other 2 I got.

There is no argument- the Broncos drafted better.

bowtown
12-03-2010, 01:25 PM
There is no argument- the Broncos drafted better.

Thanks for the insight. Just because you are too lazy to make one, doesn't mean that there is no argument to be made.

frerottenextelway
12-03-2010, 01:46 PM
The Packers drafted great, does it really matter which one might have drafted slightly better? They could win the SB this year.

Bronkota
12-03-2010, 07:42 PM
My boss just bought a fathead for her office door. So now I will have to stare at Hillis all....day....long.

<a href="http://s269.photobucket.com/albums/jj41/bronkota/?action=view&amp;current=hillis.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj41/bronkota/hillis.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>


:rofl:
There is no way in hell Hillis fits on an office door.....

broncocalijohn
12-03-2010, 07:47 PM
<a href="http://s269.photobucket.com/albums/jj41/bronkota/?action=view&amp;current=hillis.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj41/bronkota/hillis.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>


:rofl:
There is no way in hell Hillis fits on an office door.....

Yes, but Chuck Norris was hired to knock down that door. Unfortunately, When he kicked in the door, the door stayed but the whole building collapsed around him.

BroncoBuff
12-03-2010, 08:37 PM
Lelo tell your boss she botched it ... Hillis is rockin' the Lechter mask now:


http://lh5.ggpht.com/_DRqKebFHdu4/TNd3zWW4WKI/AAAAAAAAECk/FNMbRKMSyDU/s512/Hannibal%20Hillis.jpg

UltimateHoboW/Shotgun
12-03-2010, 08:45 PM
<a href="http://s269.photobucket.com/albums/jj41/bronkota/?action=view&amp;current=hillis.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj41/bronkota/hillis.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>


:rofl:
There is no way in hell Hillis fits on an office door.....

Chuck Norris roundhoused kicked the door. Norris leg exploded because the Hillis fat head was on the other side.

Taco John
12-03-2010, 09:08 PM
Every time I look at Hillis, I'm reminded of how incompetent Josh is. I can only thank God there's not a Hillis fathead anywhere in my vicinity.

strafen
12-03-2010, 10:44 PM
Every time I look at Hillis, I'm reminded of how incompetent Josh is. I can only thank God there's not a Hillis fathead anywhere in my vicinity.

I'm still in disbelief...

Bronco Yoda
12-03-2010, 10:58 PM
Great example of the steep curve between College and the NFL:

1 - Nick Mangold and Greg Eslinger were in the same draft class.

2 - Mangold is probably the best center in the league now, while Eslinger is in chiropractic school, last I heard.

3 - AND YET: Eslinger (a lowly Gopher) beat out Mangold (a vaunted Buckeye) in both their junior and senior seasons for All Big 10, beat him for All America I think twice, and topped him for the Rimington Award as seniors. Eslinger ALSO won the Outland Trophy. And he's in chiropractic school now. That's your curve, and that's what Goodman does - he identifies players who will meet the NFL threshold level.


Let's all admire, shall we?

http://img600.imageshack.us/img600/3531/goodman.jpg


Counting Hillis, that's five Pro-Bowlers in three years (though Cutler deserves an asterisk).

Good stuff!

Bronco Yoda
12-03-2010, 11:08 PM
<a href="http://s269.photobucket.com/albums/jj41/bronkota/?action=view&amp;current=hillis.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj41/bronkota/hillis.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>


:rofl:
There is no way in hell Hillis fits on an office door.....

Is it true that there's a 'too stupid to stick on wall' disclaimer on the hillis fathead? :poke:

Someone should plaster Josh's office with a dozen of these.;D

broncocalijohn
12-03-2010, 11:32 PM
Is it true that there's a 'too stupid to stick on wall' disclaimer on the hillis fathead? :poke:

Someone should plaster Josh's office with a dozen of these.;D

and one in his wife's walk in closet.

TomServo
12-04-2010, 12:08 AM
jebus h christ. using round picked in the draft and depth chart to justify the hillis trade? rod smith wasnt even drafted, the coach that picked him up and put him on the practice squad was wade phillips. wade phillips, first time coach, recognized talent, unlike our rookie coach.
the reason the hillis trade was and is is a big deal is because so many bronco fans knew he was a monster. the reason all our former players are mentioned on mnf or snf when they play and are mentioned as McD trades is because the announcers and all the other commentators know how insane it was to trade away all that talent. crybabys, malcontents or not.
this isnt like cedric benson who underperformed and drank his way out of chicago.
this isnt a OM phenomenon, how many times has this trade been mentioned? by how many tv guys and sportswriters?
the only coach in the entire league that would take moreno over hillis is...McD.
popps started this thread w/ the browns didnt know yet what us bronco fans knew and now he and other hillis detractors get to be reminded how wrong they were, even if they Still deny it.

TomServo
12-04-2010, 01:49 AM
You and Taco forget that Hillis was benched earlier in the year last year for a few games and If I recall correctly it was directly related to game-readiness or the lack thereof.
and john elway was benched once Too. Elway must have sucked and never shown the starting roll ever Too.

go_broncos
12-04-2010, 05:53 AM
Mcd thought Lamont Jordon is better than Hillis..
How dumb a person can be?
Moreno had one 100 yards rushing till now and some fans are happy with him. At the same time, they think Hillis is not that great.
Added to that, they keep posting that Mcd haters are not knowledgable.
To me, the justice will be done only when Mcd gets fired..
He will never get a job as an NFL coach.
We should never hire Bellicheck/Shanny assistants as coaches..They all suck.

errand
12-04-2010, 05:55 AM
Every time I look at Hillis, I'm reminded of how incompetent Josh is. I can only thank God there's not a Hillis fathead anywhere in my vicinity.

I'm sure if there were a Hillis fathead near you, you'd be on your knees slobbering all over it....

I'll demonstrate your absurdity by being absurd myself.....


So how incompetent was Mike Shanahan? After all he let Tory James go, he got rid of Deltha O'Neal, both made the pro bowl with other teams....he even traded away our best RB in the post TD era for Champ Bailey to make up for it.

He let Reggie Heyward and Bertrand Berry go, they had almost 10 sacks apiece with their former teams in the first year A.D. (after Denver)....

He traded Rueben Droughns who led the Browns in rushing two consecutive seasons....

He traded Tatum Bell and then signed him from a Cherry Creek Mall Verizon kiosk to replace the guy you're man crushing on now...oh, and minute for minute, his numbers were just as good if not better than Hillis ever put up in a Broncos uniform

He let go the QB that in your expert opinion was "when given protection, the NFL's most efficient QB- BAR NONE"....replacing him with the guy, who in your expert opinion was the "road block" to the Broncos success


The point being is every coach has let other players go who have success elsewhere....maybe it's the scheme, maybe it's the coaching, maybe it's the change of scenery, or perhaps it's when the player realizes this might be his last chance to play pro football that the light finally comes on....

Peyton Hillis is having an exceptional year...perhaps even a pro bowl year. Big ****ing deal....for whatever reason he was the square peg trying to fit into the round hole while in denver...you act like he's akin to the Red Sox getting rid of Babe Ruth.

BTW, history says that most former Broncos while enjoying initial success in their post Broncos career, usually fizzle out after a year....

errand
12-04-2010, 06:03 AM
and john elway was benched once Too. Elway must have sucked and never shown the starting roll ever Too.

At the time Elway was benched , he deserved to be benched

Elway was clearly in over his head in the first half of the '83 season...Steve DeBerg had to come off the bench several times to save the day, and then Reeves decided that it was best to sit his talented but overmatched rookie. Only after a few weeks of watching and learning did he start playing like the wunderkind everyone hoped he would be.....

again, hillis is having a good year...i'm happy for him, and you closet Browns fans too. But regardless of what he's doing now, he wasn't in the Broncos plans for this year. But to classify it as a mistake is ridiculous. Lots of teams let go of players who have success or play better elsewhere....it happens, you guys act like the Browns are 7-4 instead of 4-7.

Dr. Broncenstein
12-04-2010, 06:12 AM
Keep f--king that chicken, errand. The "light comes on" every time the guy gets the ball in his hands out of the backfield. But keep on hoping that his production is an aberration. The guy most likely to "fizzle out in a year" is the manchurian manchild.

go_broncos
12-04-2010, 06:17 AM
At the time Elway was benched , he deserved to be benched

Elway was clearly in over his head in the first half of the '83 season...Steve DeBerg had to come off the bench several times to save the day, and then Reeves decided that it was best to sit his talented but overmatched rookie. Only after a few weeks of watching and learning did he start playing like the wunderkind everyone hoped he would be.....

again, hillis is having a good year...i'm happy for him, and you closet Browns fans too. But regardless of what he's doing now, he wasn't in the Broncos plans for this year. But to classify it as a mistake is ridiculous. Lots of teams let go of players who have success or play better elsewhere....it happens, you guys act like the Browns are 7-4 instead of 4-7.

Josh made so many mistakes in his 2 years..Hillis is one example..
He thought Lamont is better than Hillis..He Picked A.smith in first round.
He traded picks for Maroney..Don't compare him with Shanny.
Shanny atleast won 2 SB's before doing dumb things.
What did Josh won as a coach??
He sucks as a coach..He hired all ****ty assistant coaches.
Abandons the running game..Keep passing the ball irrespective of the situation. He talks about smart players and the team commits mental mistakes at crucial team.
Everything is wrong about this team..It's amazing that some fans still support him.
Well, there are 5 games left..Hopefully, you will realize by the season end that he is a terrible coach.

Dr. Broncenstein
12-04-2010, 06:24 AM
I would like to offer a friendly wager on the following:

Hillis, the 7th round scrub fullback from podunk Arkansas who is only successful because of his line and his white skin

VS

McDaniels the boy genius head coach from the Patriot toughersmarter pedigree.

I will bet that Hillis has a longer career in he NFL than McD has as an NFL head coach for any team.

errand
12-04-2010, 06:25 AM
jebus h christ. using round picked in the draft and depth chart to justify the hillis trade? rod smith wasnt even drafted, the coach that picked him up and put him on the practice squad was wade phillips. wade phillips, first time coach, recognized talent, unlike our rookie coach.
the reason the hillis trade was and is is a big deal is because so many bronco fans knew he was a monster. the reason all our former players are mentioned on mnf or snf when they play and are mentioned as McD trades is because the announcers and all the other commentators know how insane it was to trade away all that talent. crybabys, malcontents or not.
this isnt like cedric benson who underperformed and drank his way out of chicago.
this isnt a OM phenomenon, how many times has this trade been mentioned? by how many tv guys and sportswriters?
the only coach in the entire league that would take moreno over hillis is...McD.
popps started this thread w/ the browns didnt know yet what us bronco fans knew and now he and other hillis detractors get to be reminded how wrong they were, even if they Still deny it.

So McDaniels can't spot talent?

He saw a franchise type RB and drafted him...he subsequently led all rookie rushers with 947 yards and 7 TD's while splitting carries....it's not Moreno's fault he rarely gets 20 carries a game because he's playing against two defenses.

He saw a Bears Qb that was languishing in pergatory and has turned him into a franchise record setting QB.

He took castoffs like Brandon Lloyd and Jabbar Gaffney and has them playing at a high level too. Both have set career highs for receptions and yards

He turned Dumervil into an OLB and was rewarded with 17.5 sacks.

He traded up to draft Alphonso Smith and while he got rid of him...he now has 5 INT's in Detroit. sure it looks like a mistake, but at the time Smith wasn't playing well in Denver. but Josh still saw that the kid could in fact play in the NFL.

He also saw the wasted **** that Mike drafted and got rid of it....he saw the cancerous types of players like Cutler and Marshall and got rid of them...and the parts they were replaced with ARE OUT PERFORMING them week in and week out

This team has a decent nucleus of high character players who can win in this league....It's not gonna happen overnight no matter who is coaching them. We need younger faster playmakers, specifically on the defensive side of the ball.

bowtown
12-04-2010, 06:25 AM
I would like to offer a friendly wager on the following:

Hillis, the 7th round scrub fullback from podunk Arkansas who is only successful because of his line and his white skin

VS

McDaniels the boy genius head coach from the Patriot toughersmarter pedigree.

I will bet that Hillis has a longer career in he NFL than McD has as an NFL head coach for any team.

I'm bored and hate this thread. You're on.

errand
12-04-2010, 06:28 AM
I would like to offer a friendly wager on the following:

Hillis, the 7th round scrub fullback from podunk Arkansas who is only successful because of his line and his white skin

VS

McDaniels the boy genius head coach from the Patriot toughersmarter pedigree.

I will bet that Hillis has a longer career in he NFL than McD has as an NFL head coach for any team.

another example of a so-called "fan" wishing ex-broncos more success than current Broncos...amazing...simply amazing.

CEH
12-04-2010, 06:32 AM
Keep f--king that chicken, errand. The "light comes on" every time the guy gets the ball in his hands out of the backfield. But keep on hoping that his production is an aberration. The guy most likely to "fizzle out in a year" is the manchurian manchild.

Every week goes by and Hillis dominates another opponent while the aruments against dwindle down to he didn't start as a rookie or the Browns are 4-7 so big f**king deal. Problem is it's most likely the same ppl shouting from the rooftops in the Orton threads that it's a team game and Kyle is just another piece and can't do it all himself

Hillis will fizzle due to his phyical running style but not for a couple years after he rams another CB into the ground on his way to his 3rd TD of the game. His style is so refeshing and for a weak soft finense team like Denver it sure would be nice to see some physicality somewhere

I can't wait for the next Moreno thread to pop up when he hits that magical 75 yards and 1 TD rushing mark he's bound to get once in the last 5 games

Dr. Broncenstein
12-04-2010, 06:37 AM
I'm bored and hate this thread. You're on.

200 dollars to the charity of your choice? Has to be an actual charity -- bowtown's urban achievers doesn't count.

bowtown
12-04-2010, 06:39 AM
200 dollars to the charity of your choice? Has to be an actual charity -- bowtown's urban achievers doesn't count.

LOL. It's a deal.

Dr. Broncenstein
12-04-2010, 06:41 AM
another example of a so-called "fan" wishing ex-broncos more success than current Broncos...amazing...simply amazing.

I honestly wish McD would succeed, because it means the Broncos would be winning. Win some games and prove me wrong. I'll be the happiest guy who was wrong.

errand
12-04-2010, 06:41 AM
Keep f--king that chicken, errand. The "light comes on" every time the guy gets the ball in his hands out of the backfield. But keep on hoping that his production is an aberration. The guy most likely to "fizzle out in a year" is the manchurian manchild.

So why did Mike fail to see this uberman wearing #22?

i mean if McDaniels is such an idiot, fine...he's got an excuse for not seeing that he had the next John Riggins on his roster...afterall, according to you he's retarded.... but what's mike's excuse? Or are you saying he's a moron too?

As for whether or not he'll play longer than josh is our head coach...i can only say a head coach is given less patience. i do know that Josh Mcdaniels first head coaching job lasted longer than mike shanahan's ever did.

Al davis let mike go after 20 games and an 8-12 record. BTW...mike's winning pct as a head coach in his first 36 games was .444 (16-20) and he had a couple of hall of famers on his rosters. Josh is 11-16 (.407)

Dr. Broncenstein
12-04-2010, 06:42 AM
LOL. It's a deal.

Like donkeykong, it is on.

bowtown
12-04-2010, 06:42 AM
Just want to clarify. We are talking about Josh's combined years as a head coach on any and all teams, vs. The white football version of John Riggins' combined years as a running back on any and all teams.

Which means, so far, you have the lead at 3 years vs. 2, correct?

errand
12-04-2010, 06:43 AM
I honestly wish McD would succeed, because it means the Broncos would be winning. Win some games and prove me wrong. I'll be the happiest guy who was wrong.

I for the life of me cannot understand a fan wishing that a former player/coach would have more success than a current player/coach...but you are what you are.

Dr. Broncenstein
12-04-2010, 06:45 AM
So why did Mike fail to see this uberman wearing #22?

i mean if McDaniels is such an idiot, fine...he's got an excuse for not seeing that he had the next John Riggins on his roster...afterall, according to you he's retarded.... but what's mike's excuse? Or are you saying he's a moron too?

As for whether or not he'll play longer than josh is our head coach...i can only say a head coach is given less patience. i do know that Josh Mcdaniels first head coaching job lasted longer than mike shanahan's ever did.

Al davis let mike go after 20 games and an 8-12 record. BTW...mike's winning pct as a head coach in his first 36 games was .444 (16-20) and he had a couple of hall of famers on his rosters. Josh is 11-16 (.407)

You honestly think Hillis wasn't going to be a big focal point of Mike's offense in the future?

You also think that there is less patience for NFL head coaches than 7th round scrub fullbacks?

Seriously?

Dr. Broncenstein
12-04-2010, 06:47 AM
I for the life of me cannot understand a fan wishing that a former player/coach would have more success than a current player/coach...but you are what you are.

I don't wish the above. I'm stating what I think will happen. I know because I didn't say "I wish." I said, "I'll bet."

Dr. Broncenstein
12-04-2010, 06:47 AM
Just want to clarify. We are talking about Josh's combined years as a head coach on any and all teams, vs. The white football version of John Riggins' combined years as a running back on any and all teams.

Which means, so far, you have the lead at 3 years vs. 2, correct?

Correct.

go_broncos
12-04-2010, 06:55 AM
I for the life of me cannot understand a fan wishing that a former player/coach would have more success than a current player/coach...but you are what you are.

I never understand why some fans support the current coach that keeps ruining the team.

errand
12-04-2010, 06:58 AM
You honestly think Hillis wasn't going to be a big focal point of Mike's offense in the future?

You also think that there is less patience for NFL head coaches than 7th round scrub fullbacks?

Seriously?

OK, you explain how a 7th round "scrub" was going to be the focal point of mike's offense?

you forget that mike had this kid and it took 6 RB's getting hurt before he even sniffed the field. He was used out of neccessity when they didn't have anyone else.

that year hillis led us in rushing we had every RB avg 4 or more yards per carry...didn't matter who they were. Hell tatum bell averaged 5.7 yards per carry and 2 TD in less than a third of carries, and had in his stint as our starter had 921 yards rushing while splitting carries...what makes you think that he, not Hillis wouldn't have been the focus of mike's offense?

Dr. Broncenstein
12-04-2010, 06:59 AM
I never understand why some fans support the current coach that keeps ruining the team.

I honestly wish I'm wrong about McD. I wish McD nothing but success as the head coach of the Broncos. I wish. I double dog wish. I'll eat my hat when he turns it around.