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iforgotmypassword
11-24-2009, 04:00 PM
I've tried to ask this in the draft thread not enough feedback, to anybody with knowledge on the 3-4, what is the difference between a 3-4 DE and NT??? All i've ever known was was that it seemed like a NT was bigger better DE??? maybe the DE's need to be a little smaller with slightly more speed? and If this is the case can Feilds ever be an effective DE in our 3-4? Thanks

Popps
11-24-2009, 04:04 PM
Fields is effective, but he needs to play in rotation. Teams have been trying to keep us from rotating with success. Baker's development will help us out.

Missing McBean hurt us. Ayers was held out, so I'm still trying to figure out what he was doing wrong.

We know that DJ Williams is responsible for several long runs, and multiple misreads per game.

Peterson is nice in rotation. Davis may be our most consistent front 7 player, oddly.

Dumervil has gone AWOL the past several games.

Our blitzing schemes seemed to have gotten much more conservative.


There are a lot of things going on beyond just Fields.

But, to the question... yes, a 3-4 linemen is bigger, and usually asked to occupy space and blockers more than penetrating, though not always. It depends on the scheme and the situation.

PRBronco
11-24-2009, 04:10 PM
The difference between 3-4 DEs and NTs is mostly body types, and the skillset that comes with being built as such. A prototype 3-4 DE is a guy like Ty Warren or Richard Seymour, big enough to battle with big OTs, but strong enough to hold their ground. The prototype NT is Vince Wilfork or Casey Hampton. A bit shorter (6'-1" or 6'-2") and as heavy as possible without sacrificing conditioning. Long arms are also a big plus.

edit: Oh yeah, to answer your question, I think generally Fields would be considered too short to be a DE. He's doing fine on the Nose though.

elsid13
11-24-2009, 04:22 PM
This is good article that explains the role of NT.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1208/is_42_228/ai_n6249316/?tag=content;col1

Yes Fields can play DE, he played some in SF, but he better as NT where he can occupy the guard and center.

gyldenlove
11-24-2009, 05:21 PM
A good 3-4 DE should be no less than 6'3 and weigh no less than 295 lbs, optimal is probably 6'5 and 310 lbs with long arms. A 30 DE has to be quick to get pressure and have very good arm work since he has to be able to fight through the block and maintain gap integrity as well as putting pressure on the pocket to keep the OT occupied.

A NT can be shorter but doesn't have to be since he never has to face the tackle - tackles typically are taller and have longer arms than interior linemen. The NT has to play with great leverage so he never gets moved out of his position and has to be able to consistently control an offensive lineman in 1 on 1. The NG doesn't have to be particularly fast and isn't required to be that quick but has to explosive and very very strong - optimally he should be the strongest guy on the team.

Right now the biggest problem I see in our defense is the lack of complementary pass rush across from Dumervil as well the lack of a standout DE. Rotation is good, but we need the kind of DL player who can consistently warrant double teams or create problems in single blocking. In plain english it means you almost always see Dumervil matched up directly on the tackle which is not a good matchup, you would like to see the DE be able to take the tackle away and give Dumervil a RB or TE instead which is a matchup he will win very often.

I have noticed that in the last 3 games especially Nolan has looked like the Nolan they had in San Fran, very conservative in blitzing and playing a lot of very cautious coverage schemes. It didn't work for him in San Fran, it didn't work for Slowick here and it should be something Mcdaniels gets rid of very soon. We had success being aggressive and pursuing hard and leaving our DBs in a lot of man coverage, in the soft zone we have played lately we are getting picked apart.

iforgotmypassword
11-24-2009, 06:06 PM
good info, my info is purely for the draft i'm kind of a junkie there... thanks for the help guys

I don't beleive a complimentary pass rush is a priority right now with Ayers a rookie playing a new position, DE, NT are keys for us next year, we did do a good one year turn-around there but now we need to do a good a good two year turn-around there

gtown
11-24-2009, 06:29 PM
The teams that have done well against us have taken advantage of the lack of talent we have on the dline. We have guys that are either good at getting to the QB or playing the run, but not both.

So they have been running in passing down and distances and vice versa to take advantage of our rotation that cannot do both things well at the same time. The book is out on us and I am not sure what Nolan can do to fix it. He could probably get back to the aggressive defense we had earlier in the season or start mixing up our rotation to keep the opposing offense on their toes. But I am always surprised at how reluctant coaches are to change things up.

gyldenlove
11-24-2009, 06:34 PM
good info, my info is purely for the draft i'm kind of a junkie there... thanks for the help guys

I don't beleive a complimentary pass rush is a priority right now with Ayers a rookie playing a new position, DE, NT are keys for us next year, we did do a good one year turn-around there but now we need to do a good a good two year turn-around there

I would like to see us make a play for Cody, he is a monster and has all the tools to be a NG, they are rare.

At DE I like Corey Wootton and Vince Oghobaase and Corey Peters out of Kentucky. Dunlap from Florida and whats his face from Oklahoma would both be interesting in the first round if they come out, and Granger is interesting depending how his injury affects his draft prep.

Mediator12
11-24-2009, 06:44 PM
The difference is what role they play in the front. DE's have to be more agile than NT's in a 3-4. They play different gaps and have to play in space better, while NT's have to be able to handle constant Double teams and playing in the middle of things. They read different keys and they have to execute much different techniques to get their jobs done.

Overall, the difference is very significant. Even playing 4-3 NT is different than playing 3-4 NT. The 3-4 DE's are really a cross between a 3 technique DT and a strongside DE in a 4-3 skill wise. Sometimes they play like a DT and sometimes they play like a 4-3 DE.

Hope that helps. Its simple, but if you want more detail I have to have more time.

gtown
11-24-2009, 07:56 PM
Med,
what do you think is our greatest need on the dline?

broncosteven
11-24-2009, 08:40 PM
The difference is what role they play in the front. DE's have to be more agile than NT's in a 3-4. They play different gaps and have to play in space better, while NT's have to be able to handle constant Double teams and playing in the middle of things. They read different keys and they have to execute much different techniques to get their jobs done.

Overall, the difference is very significant. Even playing 4-3 NT is different than playing 3-4 NT. The 3-4 DE's are really a cross between a 3 technique DT and a strongside DE in a 4-3 skill wise. Sometimes they play like a DT and sometimes they play like a 4-3 DE.

Hope that helps. Its simple, but if you want more detail I have to have more time.

I always understood gap responsibilities to be more important for a 3-4 DL over 4-3.

Don't the 3-4 DL need to be responsible for their gap 1st then penetration 2nd allowing the LB's to blitz and or clean up in run support?

The thing about watching the Orange Crush D in the late 70's was the great pressure that the DL was able to bring when they only rushed 3.

This years Bronco DLine was able to pressure while on their win streak before McBean went down, they were also able to string out wide run plays.

Now Peterson keeps getting pinched and caught in the wash on rushes and they are not able to get any pressure with front 3 or even with Davis shooting the A gap.

~Crash~
11-24-2009, 09:45 PM
Fields is effective, but he needs to play in rotation. Teams have been trying to keep us from rotating with success. Baker's development will help us out.

Missing McBean hurt us. Ayers was held out, so I'm still trying to figure out what he was doing wrong.

We know that DJ Williams is responsible for several long runs, and multiple misreads per game.

Peterson is nice in rotation. Davis may be our most consistent front 7 player, oddly.

Dumervil has gone AWOL the past several games.

Our blitzing schemes seemed to have gotten much more conservative.


There are a lot of things going on beyond just Fields.

But, to the question... yes, a 3-4 linemen is bigger, and usually asked to occupy space and blockers more than penetrating, though not always. It depends on the scheme and the situation.

DJ Williams looked so damn good those first 6 games . Now he looks beat the hell up he is behind on plays and that is never a good sign

On a couple plays Ayer got lost that last game I guess he was being told to put his nose in the play book.

~Crash~
11-24-2009, 09:49 PM
I think the need to bring in Larson some to spell DJ for 50 % of the time .for a couple games

~Crash~
11-24-2009, 09:52 PM
Med,
what do you think is our greatest need on the dline?

We need a NT and A MLB and a FS IMO . Why oh why did we not take Rey Maualuga instead of shrimp

~Crash~
11-24-2009, 09:54 PM
DJ should be traded for 3rd round draft pick .

Popps
11-24-2009, 10:35 PM
DJ should be traded for 3rd round draft pick .

I'd just like to see him coming out of the game more often on running downs... but then, you have to have someone to replace him.

I really don't know how well Larsen/Woodyard diagnose the run.

DJ's problem is figuring out where he's going, and dealing with blockers along the way.

His strength is chasing down ball-carriers in the open field, and he's solid in pass coverage.

But, when he blows a running play... he takes himself completely out of it. He can't get around blockers.

He's an issue. He's not THE issue, or the BIGGEST issue, but he's a problem against the run.

Florida_Bronco
11-24-2009, 10:37 PM
I'd just like to see him coming out of the game more often on running downs... but then, you have to have someone to replace him.

I really don't know how well Larsen/Woodyard diagnose the run.

DJ's problem is figuring out where he's going, and dealing with blockers along the way.

His strength is chasing down ball-carriers in the open field, and he's solid in pass coverage.

But, when he blows a running play... he takes himself completely out of it. He can't get around blockers.

He's an issue. He's not THE issue, or the BIGGEST issue, but he's a problem against the run.

I understand you don't like DJ, but I'm just not seeing what you're seeing. ???

Popps
11-24-2009, 10:52 PM
I understand you don't like DJ, but I'm just not seeing what you're seeing. ???

Wrong. It's not that I "don't like him," it's that I think he has flaws in his game.
I like SOME of what he does. I love seeing him chase down ball-carriers to the sidelines. But, to play inside... you need to be able to do a lot more than that.

You just have to key in on him, particularly during running plays.

Two years ago, I was trying to figure out why our running game was so bad.
Obviously, we had problems on the line. But, in going back and watching Tivo over and over and just looking at the defense, it began to be obvious to me that DJ was having problems fending off blockers, and even figuring out where he's supposed to be.

Then, last year... the problem almost got worse. He's particularly bad when playing inside. You just have to watch him on running plays.... especially when they go bad. Just key in on him. You absolutely can't miss it. He guesses wrong on a regular basis, and if there's traffic.. he's SURE to get caught up in it.

He takes himself out of plays on a regular basis.

But, when he's not doing that... he's racking up tackles.... be it in the passing game or when he guesses correctly.

Again, you have to have someone better to put out there, and I'm quite sure McDaniels would if he could. But, we likely just don't.

Lolad
11-24-2009, 10:53 PM
Our problem is our DLineman not keeping our backers clean. The Guards and FB's are getting to the 2nd level and blocking our LB's. It's just that simple... We don't have the talent up front to stop teams from doing it either.

BroncoMan4ever
11-24-2009, 11:06 PM
Fields has been good for us, but we need a number 2 to rotate with him. Baker seemed awesome in preseason, but is never active.

ZONA
11-24-2009, 11:17 PM
I'd just like to see him coming out of the game more often on running downs... but then, you have to have someone to replace him.

I really don't know how well Larsen/Woodyard diagnose the run.

DJ's problem is figuring out where he's going, and dealing with blockers along the way.

His strength is chasing down ball-carriers in the open field, and he's solid in pass coverage.

But, when he blows a running play... he takes himself completely out of it. He can't get around blockers.

He's an issue. He's not THE issue, or the BIGGEST issue, but he's a problem against the run.

This is why I would run blitz more with DJ. Don't make him think too much, just tell him to go to the QB and he's athletic enough to get in there. But I still think with better DL getting the blockers off him will really help. But yeah, DJ is no Ray Lewis that's for sure.

LongDongJohnson
11-25-2009, 01:31 AM
Wrong. It's not that I "don't like him," it's that I think he has flaws in his game.
I like SOME of what he does. I love seeing him chase down ball-carriers to the sidelines. But, to play inside... you need to be able to do a lot more than that.

You just have to key in on him, particularly during running plays.

Two years ago, I was trying to figure out why our running game was so bad.
Obviously, we had problems on the line. But, in going back and watching Tivo over and over and just looking at the defense, it began to be obvious to me that DJ was having problems fending off blockers, and even figuring out where he's supposed to be.

Then, last year... the problem almost got worse. He's particularly bad when playing inside. You just have to watch him on running plays.... especially when they go bad. Just key in on him. You absolutely can't miss it. He guesses wrong on a regular basis, and if there's traffic.. he's SURE to get caught up in it.

He takes himself out of plays on a regular basis.

But, when he's not doing that... he's racking up tackles.... be it in the passing game or when he guesses correctly.

Again, you have to have someone better to put out there, and I'm quite sure McDaniels would if he could. But, we likely just don't.
Wrong.

DBroncos4life
11-25-2009, 03:08 AM
You can watch the highlights of the long runs that the Chargers had against us. The LT run you can see DJ react and exploded threw the hole to get blown up by the full back. Still you can clearly see he knew what was going on. LT for 21. The Hester run was right up the middle and both Davis and DJ filled the gaps at the snap. The run looked to be on Davis side but its really hard to tell. Still McBath looked to be lost on that play. Hester for 15. On the Tolbert run DJ went towards LT. Davis got lost behind his man and a blocker and let the FB run down the field. Tolbert for 32. On the Tolbert TD run they went to Davis's side yet again. DJ covered the pitch man. On the LT TD run it did look like DJ was on that side and he was around LT after he scored so I guess it was his fault. I know its not tivo but you can watch the highlights right here.

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2009112210/2009/REG11/chargers@broncos/recap#tab:analyze/analyze-channels:cat-post-playbyplay

fontaine
11-25-2009, 03:13 AM
Dumervil is just doing what he does in the last half of the season. The guy just wears down in the 2nd half of the season.

I'm really disapointed with Ayers though. Even when we were winning the guy showed very little hustle, didn't chase down plays and gang tackle. His fist step was slow, and he showed very limited pass rush moves.

DBroncos4life
11-25-2009, 03:26 AM
On the R.Mendenhall run it looks like Woodward got out of position. DJ was on the line. The DE got up field, DJ then got blocked by a TE and a pulling guard. Woodward looked lost. On the second long run both DJ and Ayers could have played that much better. DJ being the vet the blame should be on him. The two Cartwright long runs DJ was being blocked down field by the O-line. Its always helpful to LBs in a 3-4 if they don't have guards blocking them down field. I know you will always hear Ray Lewis say the same thing.

Caveat Lector
11-25-2009, 04:59 AM
Fields has been good for us, but we need a number 2 to rotate with him. Baker seemed awesome in preseason, but is never active.

That's because he was going against C/G combos that didn't make team rosters. If he was up to it he'd be active, McD obviously thinks he isn't.

broncosteven
11-25-2009, 04:48 PM
Dumervil is just doing what he does in the last half of the season. The guy just wears down in the 2nd half of the season.

I'm really disapointed with Ayers though. Even when we were winning the guy showed very little hustle, didn't chase down plays and gang tackle. His fist step was slow, and he showed very limited pass rush moves.

I think that Ayers is the LB to bag on if your going to pick apart a Bronco LB.

DJ is playing at a whole other level than Ayers, It may not be an elite level but it is higher than Ayers.

FireFly
11-25-2009, 05:06 PM
I'm really worried about all of our LBers quite frankly I agree that Doom is wearing down, DJ has never been much of a thinker out there and Ayers... well he hasn't shown very much!

Geeze, Moss was out there!

PRBronco
11-25-2009, 05:15 PM
I'm really worried about all of our LBers quite frankly I agree that Doom is wearing down, DJ has never been much of a thinker out there and Ayers... well he hasn't shown very much!

Geeze, Moss was out there!

Hey that reminds me, Jarvis still has a job! After that epic embarrassing jump offsides and then fall down I thought he'd be gone for sure.

Florida_Bronco
11-25-2009, 05:31 PM
Hey that reminds me, Jarvis still has a job! After that epic embarrassing jump offsides and then fall down I thought he'd be gone for sure.

I don't think pro football teams are in the business of cutting 1st round picks just for jumping offsides.

oubronco
11-25-2009, 06:01 PM
I don't think pro football teams are in the business of cutting 1st round picks just for jumping offsides.

with Moss maybe they should he hasn't done jack since they drafted him

azbroncfan
11-25-2009, 09:05 PM
I don't think pro football teams are in the business of cutting 1st round picks just for jumping offsides.

Jarvis's draft position means nothing anymore. He is what he is a guy who is a bust and barely on this roster. You just can't help not defending him. He hasn't made it past 3rd string and probably won't even be on roster next year.

Florida_Bronco
11-25-2009, 09:49 PM
with Moss maybe they should he hasn't done jack since they drafted him

Jarvis's draft position means nothing anymore. He is what he is a guy who is a bust and barely on this roster. You just can't help not defending him. He hasn't made it past 3rd string and probably won't even be on roster next year.

McD and Nolan aren't increasing his playing time just for the hell of it. You ever think that maybe he's shown enough in practice and his limited time earlier in the year to justify that move?

Lolad
11-25-2009, 10:12 PM
McD and Nolan aren't increasing his playing time just for the hell of it. You ever think that maybe he's shown enough in practice and his limited time earlier in the year to justify that move?

I think the only reason he's seeing the field is to tell Ayers he needs to get his head in the defense.

Florida_Bronco
11-25-2009, 10:58 PM
I think the only reason he's seeing the field is to tell Ayers he needs to get his head in the defense.

I don't buy that. Ayers has been solid all season and McD and Nolan aren't going to put someone in there over him just to send a message.

broncosteven
11-27-2009, 04:14 PM
Wrong. It's not that I "don't like him," it's that I think he has flaws in his game.
I like SOME of what he does. I love seeing him chase down ball-carriers to the sidelines. But, to play inside... you need to be able to do a lot more than that.

You just have to key in on him, particularly during running plays.

Two years ago, I was trying to figure out why our running game was so bad.
Obviously, we had problems on the line. But, in going back and watching Tivo over and over and just looking at the defense, it began to be obvious to me that DJ was having problems fending off blockers, and even figuring out where he's supposed to be.

Then, last year... the problem almost got worse. He's particularly bad when playing inside. You just have to watch him on running plays.... especially when they go bad. Just key in on him. You absolutely can't miss it. He guesses wrong on a regular basis, and if there's traffic.. he's SURE to get caught up in it.

He takes himself out of plays on a regular basis.

But, when he's not doing that... he's racking up tackles.... be it in the passing game or when he guesses correctly.

Again, you have to have someone better to put out there, and I'm quite sure McDaniels would if he could. But, we likely just don't.

I thought DJ played an excellent game yesterday.

THoughts?

Natedogg
11-27-2009, 04:29 PM
I thought DJ played an excellent game yesterday.

THoughts?

Saw him playing deep deep coverage several times. Pretty good scheme, at least yesterday.

watermock
11-27-2009, 04:39 PM
You can watch the highlights of the long runs that the Chargers had against us. The LT run you can see DJ react and exploded threw the hole to get blown up by the full back. Still you can clearly see he knew what was going on. LT for 21. The Hester run was right up the middle and both Davis and DJ filled the gaps at the snap. The run looked to be on Davis side but its really hard to tell. Still McBath looked to be lost on that play. Hester for 15. On the Tolbert run DJ went towards LT. Davis got lost behind his man and a blocker and let the FB run down the field. Tolbert for 32. On the Tolbert TD run they went to Davis's side yet again. DJ covered the pitch man. On the LT TD run it did look like DJ was on that side and he was around LT after he scored so I guess it was his fault. I know its not tivo but you can watch the highlights right here.

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2009112210/2009/REG11/chargers@broncos/recap#tab:analyze/analyze-channels:cat-post-playbyplay


wow.