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DenverBound
11-24-2009, 12:10 PM
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac90/Broncoboy27/Denver%20Broncos%20PC/DarrylsPictures001-1.jpg

Discuss...

Ramathorn
11-24-2009, 12:18 PM
absolutlely a touchdown. I was screaming at the tv. (it didnt respond). I told my wife that is def a touchdown. We cant catch a break

DenverBound
11-24-2009, 12:20 PM
absolutlely a touchdown. I was screaming at the tv. (it didnt respond). I told my wife that is def a touchdown. We cant catch a break

Bear in mind that this still was taken as Moreno's arms were coming down over Hochstein's knee. We were robbed. Momentum killer.

Hercules Rockefeller
11-24-2009, 12:22 PM
Ball is clearly coming out, his right hand isn't even on the ball in that shot.

DenverBound
11-24-2009, 12:25 PM
Ball is clearly coming out, his right hand isn't even on the ball in that shot.

I know healthcare is expensive these days but vision coverage is really cheap. I think I pay less than $50 a year. You should look into it.

broncosteven
11-24-2009, 12:28 PM
I saw puffs of smoke from the grassy knoll...

Hercules Rockefeller
11-24-2009, 12:30 PM
I know healthcare is expensive these days but vision coverage is really cheap. I think I pay less than $50 a year. You should look into it.

Yawn. I was at the game, and that's the endzone where our seats are. He fumbled, ****ing deal with it.

He was not down and the ball came out before it crossed the goalline. Hate to ruin homer time for everyone, but 27 put it on the ground again.

BuckinKaeding
11-24-2009, 12:31 PM
Time to move on, just like you all were telling me after Hochuli's call last year.

JJG
11-24-2009, 12:31 PM
its hard to tell by the pic. We cant really see when the ball started coming out. I think it should have been a td, but it wouldn't matter much. We did nothing the rest of the game

Peoples Champ
11-24-2009, 12:35 PM
Time to move on, just like you all were telling me after Hochuli's call last year.


Yep,

This one was a make up call, so we are even.

DHallblows
11-24-2009, 12:37 PM
Yawn. I was at the game, and that's the endzone where our seats are. He fumbled, ****ing deal with it.

He was not down and the ball came out before it crossed the goalline. Hate to ruin homer time for everyone, but 27 put it on the ground again.

Boom^

And to answer the initial question: No, the picture is ****ty quality. The blur of brown and white is indistinguishable in it...

HEAV
11-24-2009, 12:54 PM
It was a bang/bang play. The minute the ball crossed he hit Hoch's thigh and pop went the football.

The kid was trying to make a play and it was a freak play that cuased the fumble. He'll learn not to do that on the Goal line with bodies around.

BuckinKaeding
11-24-2009, 12:58 PM
Yep,

This one was a make up call, so we are even.

I am not agreeing that it wasn't a fumble, and I'd also say that Hochuli's call was a bigger call that influenced the game.

SureShot
11-24-2009, 01:03 PM
Face it Moreno is a fumbler.

broncocalijohn
11-24-2009, 01:06 PM
Ball is clearly coming out, his right hand isn't even on the ball in that shot.

you mean the TWO hands over the ball?

Peoples Champ
11-24-2009, 01:08 PM
I am not agreeing that it wasn't a fumble, and I'd also say that Hochuli's call was a bigger call that influenced the game.


We have definately had our fair share of make up calls all last year after Hochuli, in multiple games. I wish that thing never happened. I wish we got swept against the chargers. Then we would have won a lot more games last year if the refs werent out to get us because of Hochuli.

broncocalijohn
11-24-2009, 01:12 PM
This wouldnt have mattered if 1) NFL puts two cameras on each side of the lines (4 total for the stadium) and one each over the line from the "birds eye view". Also, if every running back remembers not to try to stretch out for a TD on first or second down, this wouldnt have happened.

OBF1
11-24-2009, 01:13 PM
Lousy picture. The quality sucks at the very least. On the other hand I saw the game in 1080 and it sure looked like a TD to me.

Phantom
11-24-2009, 01:13 PM
Clearly a TD.

vancejohnson82
11-24-2009, 01:14 PM
i gotta say...you can't overrule that once the call was made

sucks, but it is what it is

~Crash~
11-24-2009, 01:17 PM
its hard to tell by the pic. We cant really see when the ball started coming out. I think it should have been a td, but it wouldn't matter much. We did nothing the rest of the game

Yes it did matter . there were missed calls and all those missed calls were the tipping point and caused the game to slide away !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

that first fumble was not a fumble it was a face mask we should of been at the 5 Yard line instead 7 points for SD . that is 10 point swing and could of been a 14 point swing .

http://msn.foxsports.com/id/10414060_18_1.jpg

~Crash~
11-24-2009, 01:18 PM
there are games that are fixed and IMO that game was fixed

Popps
11-24-2009, 01:19 PM
I'm not usually a "we get bad calls" guy, but I really did think that ball was across before he even started reaching. I think a goal-line cam would have easily showed that.

By the way... there are millions of dollars put into every game... we can't set up a ****ing goal line cam and just leave it running?

Anyone have a mini-DV cam they can lend the NFL? How the **** do they not have a straight cam shot down the goal line?

BroncoMan4ever
11-24-2009, 01:24 PM
Bear in mind that this still was taken as Moreno's arms were coming down over Hochstein's knee. We were robbed. Momentum killer.

if that is called correctly, we go into the half with some momentum and more than likely either take the lead or pull within 3 on the 1st drive of the 2nd half, and it becomes a completrely different game.

~Crash~
11-24-2009, 01:27 PM
http://http://msn.foxsports.com/id/10414060_18_1.jpg

BuckinKaeding
11-24-2009, 01:48 PM
http://msn.foxsports.com/id/10414060_18_1.jpg

There you go.

Ratboy
11-24-2009, 01:54 PM
It was a good call.

Moreno needs to hold on the ball more.

TonyR
11-24-2009, 01:57 PM
Yawn. I was at the game, and that's the endzone where our seats are. He fumbled, ****ing deal with it.

He was not down and the ball came out before it crossed the goalline. Hate to ruin homer time for everyone, but 27 put it on the ground again.

I don't know for sure whether or not it was a fumble but I do know for sure that just because your seats were at that end of the stadium that you don't know any better than the rest of us. In fact, this is one of those circumstances where those of us at home with the benefit of instant replay and slow motion are actually in a better position to judge such a thing.

Ratboy
11-24-2009, 01:58 PM
I'm not usually a "we get bad calls" guy, but I really did think that ball was across before he even started reaching. I think a goal-line cam would have easily showed that.

By the way... there are millions of dollars put into every game... we can't set up a ****ing goal line cam and just leave it running?

Anyone have a mini-DV cam they can lend the NFL? How the **** do they not have a straight cam shot down the goal line?

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-videos/09000d5d8130d76b/Official-Review-Week-3-bonus-coverage

SouthStndJunkie
11-24-2009, 02:01 PM
It was probably a TD....but you absolutely can't count on the zebras to bail you out on a close replay....hang on to the ball and remove all doubt.

No use bitching and moaning about it.

Los Broncos
11-24-2009, 02:02 PM
It looks like a TD but who cares at this point, we lost bring on the next game.

Pick Six
11-24-2009, 02:03 PM
As long as the ball crosses the front of the white line before the player loses control of the ball, it's a touchdown. THAT was a touchdown. We never recovered from that missed call...

Hercules Rockefeller
11-24-2009, 02:12 PM
I don't know for sure whether or not it was a fumble but I do know for sure that just because your seats were at that end of the stadium that you don't know any better than the rest of us. In fact, this is one of those circumstances where those of us at home with the benefit of instant replay and slow motion are actually in a better position to judge such a thing.

Yeah, because I never saw a replay in the stadium nor have I seen a replay since the game was over.

WolfpackGuy
11-24-2009, 02:12 PM
It was close.

Nothing in the available replays was "indisputable" to overturn the initial fumble call.

I wonder why the NFL doesn't invest in goalline, backline, and sideline cams?

That might've helped.

TonyR
11-24-2009, 02:15 PM
Yeah, because I never saw a replay in the stadium nor have I seen a replay since the game was over.

You're the one who made the insinuation that you know better because you were at the game on that end of the stadium. The fact is being there gave you no such advantage. You weren't close enough, probably didn't have nearly the right angle, and it happened too quickly. That's all I'm saying. Your post gave the distinct impression that you think you know better than the OP and anyone arguing that they think it was a TD. You don't.

Here's your exact quote:

Yawn. I was at the game, and that's the endzone where our seats are. He fumbled, ****ing deal with it.

hades
11-24-2009, 02:20 PM
There you go.

Why the hell is Chris looking at his shoes, no wonder he sucks!

MplsBronco
11-24-2009, 02:40 PM
I'm not usually a "we get bad calls" guy, but I really did think that ball was across before he even started reaching. I think a goal-line cam would have easily showed that.

By the way... there are millions of dollars put into every game... we can't set up a ****ing goal line cam and just leave it running?

Anyone have a mini-DV cam they can lend the NFL? How the **** do they not have a straight cam shot down the goal line?

I said this in the game day thread. How in this day and age do they not have a fixed camera on the the goalline or fixed cameras along each sideline? I just don't understand it. The officiating in the NFL is atrocious and replay is worthless.

Taco John
11-24-2009, 02:46 PM
It looked to me that he didn't have control of the ball as he was coming across the line. And the cock-eyed angle that the camera was at pretty well made it impossible for the refs to overturn that one.

The solution is not giving a two down back who is a known fumbler the ball in traffic in crucial situations. Tatum Moreno is great in situations where he has space and can build up a stride, but in between the tackles in short yardage - he's just not proving that he's that kind of back.

Hercules Rockefeller
11-24-2009, 02:46 PM
You're the one who made the insinuation that you know better because you were at the game on that end of the stadium. The fact is being there gave you no such advantage. You weren't close enough, probably didn't have nearly the right angle, and it happened too quickly. That's all I'm saying. Your post gave the distinct impression that you think you know better than the OP and anyone arguing that they think it was a TD. You don't.

Here's your exact quote:

Yawn. I was at the game, and that's the endzone where our seats are. He fumbled, ****ing deal with it.

Good to know you assumed so much when you actually know dick about my seats.

My seats are a little inside the goalline on the side of the field where the play was, and that gave me a clear view of Moreno's body as he tried to go into the endzone.

So in fact, I did have a great view of the play. Thought it was a fumble then, and none of the replays I saw changed that opinion.

MplsBronco
11-24-2009, 02:51 PM
It looked to me that he didn't have control of the ball as he was coming across the line. And the cock-eyed angle that the camera was at pretty well made it impossible for the refs to overturn that one.

The solution is not giving a two down back who is a known fumbler the ball in traffic in crucial situations. Tatum Moreno is great in situations where he has space and can build up a stride, but in between the tackles in short yardage - he's just not proving that he's that kind of back.

Gotta agree with you. Not a Hillis fanatic but the dude should be getting the goalline work. I don't think McD is using personnel to it's fullest.

jhns
11-24-2009, 02:52 PM
I thought it was a TD there isn't much we can do about it now. You can't use this stuff as an excuse. There are multiple no-calls and multiple bad calls in every game. The team has to find a way to overcome them if they want to be the best.

MplsBronco
11-24-2009, 02:54 PM
there are games that are fixed and IMO that game was fixed

You could tell early we weren't getting any calls that game. The next possession there was another facemask when Simms got sacked. 9 penalties to 1. Hard to buy that.

TonyR
11-24-2009, 02:57 PM
I thought it was a TD there isn't much we can do about it now. You can't use this stuff as an excuse. There are multiple no-calls and multiple bad calls in every game. The team has to find a way to overcome them if they want to be the best.

Agree 100%, although it sure seems like we've been on the wrong end too often the last few weeks. The Campbell fumble against the Skins and the Simms facemask this week, to name just a couple. There was also a no call on Berger getting hit, a no call on Royal's jersey getting grabbed, a questionable call on a sideline catch by Gaffney, the Merriman hit on Orton, etc. all in the last few weeks when we needed all the help we could get!

Rohirrim
11-24-2009, 02:59 PM
It looked to me that he didn't have control of the ball as he was coming across the line. And the cock-eyed angle that the camera was at pretty well made it impossible for the refs to overturn that one.

The solution is not giving a two down back who is a known fumbler the ball in traffic in crucial situations. Tatum Moreno is great in situations where he has space and can build up a stride, but in between the tackles in short yardage - he's just not proving that he's that kind of back.

I can't believe how tough you're being on this guy. Lot's of rookies come into the league with this issue. They have to beef up their hand and forearm strength and learn how to overcome college habits. Hell, TD had 5 each his first two years. He'll get over it. Calling the kid "Tatum" is really over-doing it.

FireFly
11-24-2009, 03:06 PM
Whatever the call on the field was, that was what was going to hold up.

If the call on the field was TD they wouldn't have overturned that either.

I think it was a TD, but even I had doubt watching certain angles,

Bronx33
11-24-2009, 03:06 PM
Time to move on, just like you all were telling me after Hochuli's call last year.


You cried about the Hochuli call for months so lay off sunshine.

Tombstone RJ
11-24-2009, 03:16 PM
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac90/Broncoboy27/Denver%20Broncos%20PC/DarrylsPictures001-1.jpg

Discuss...

His head and shoulders are across the goal line so even if he is losing control of the ball in this pick, he clearly crossed the goal line with possession of the ball.

This is the most definitive pic I've seen of the play.

jhns
11-24-2009, 03:19 PM
Agree 100%, although it sure seems like we've been on the wrong end too often the last few weeks. The Campbell fumble against the Skins and the Simms facemask this week, to name just a couple. There was also a no call on Berger getting hit, a no call on Royal's jersey getting grabbed, a questionable call on a sideline catch by Gaffney, the Merriman hit on Orton, etc. all in the last few weeks when we needed all the help we could get!

There does seem to be a lot going against us recently.

SonOfLe-loLang
11-24-2009, 03:28 PM
Hochstein's knee knocked it out. Hochsteins knee was on the goalline. I dont understand how this is even an issue. I get why the refs didnt overturn it, they didnt have the clearest angle, had they called it a TD it would have stood.

But he def crossed the goal line.

On the subject of technology, its inexcusable that they dont have some kind of sensor on the ball that informs a ref when it crosses the goal line. It makes too much sense.

_Oro_
11-24-2009, 03:40 PM
People are letting their hate of Moreno disrupt their judgment on this one. The rule is
the ball has to cross the plane with possession. You don't need possession for one millisecond after it crosses. Moreno is extending the ball with two hands as Hochstein knees it out. The ball doesn't come loose until Hochstein's knee hits it. Hochstein's knee hits the ball after it already has crossed the plane. Therefore he must have had possession while crossing the plane. The only argument is whether he had possession before Hochstein's knee hit, and it looks like he clearly did.

Now, some people are claiming he should have just kept possession the whole time,
yes that's the ideal TD, but because of the NFL rule almost everyone extends the ball every time their close to the endzone. Why hate on Moreno for extending near the goal line? Seriously every NFL player does it because all you have to do is cross the plane. Personally I think the NFL should change the rule but then you won't have the flashy TDs of guys diving across the goal line half out of bands with ONE hand extended.

Conclusion, the whole thing is BS. That's a TD.

Side note, Merriman went low and Orton and that call would have been huge.

Beej
11-24-2009, 03:58 PM
On the subject of technology, its inexcusable that they dont have some kind of sensor on the ball that informs a ref when it crosses the goal line. It makes too much sense.

They did it with hockey pucks.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FoxTrax

DBroncos4life
11-24-2009, 04:05 PM
Hochstein's knee knocked it out. Hochsteins knee was on the goalline. I dont understand how this is even an issue. I get why the refs didnt overturn it, they didnt have the clearest angle, had they called it a TD it would have stood.

But he def crossed the goal line.

On the subject of technology, its inexcusable that they dont have some kind of sensor on the ball that informs a ref when it crosses the goal line. It makes too much sense.

See that sounds like a great idea but is it going to let the ref know when the ball has left the runners hands? The sensor would have went off because the ball crossed the line but that doesn't mean one way or another that Moreno had the ball still in his hands.

Jekyll15Hyde
11-24-2009, 04:14 PM
its hard to tell by the pic. We cant really see when the ball started coming out. I think it should have been a td, but it wouldn't matter much. We did nothing the rest of the game

It was pretty clear from the replay that as he extended it BEYOND his head, it hit Hochstein and he lost it. So if his head is in the endzone, it is a TD.

We have waaaaayyyy too good of technology not to be able to know this. Hell, if the camera was at the 5yd line, how hard is a little geometry?? It wouldnt be exact but you would know the result less a margin for error (math based). If the result is within the margin for error, you cant use the interpolated value. If not, use it! In this case, this seemed quite obvious.

STBumpkin
11-24-2009, 04:22 PM
This wouldnt have mattered if 1) NFL puts two cameras on each side of the lines (4 total for the stadium) and one each over the line from the "birds eye view". Also, if every running back remembers not to try to stretch out for a TD on first or second down, this wouldnt have happened.

This

Bronx33
11-24-2009, 04:26 PM
Just curious if that were tom brady punching in the ball ( how it would have been called):P

Tombstone RJ
11-24-2009, 04:50 PM
Hell, why doesn't the NFL do this:

Put sensors underneath the ground at the threshold of the goal line. Then put a some kind of transmitter in the ball that activates the sensors when the ball crosses the threshold.

Next, do as broncocalijohn suggest and put 5 cameras (one on each side line pylon for each goal, and one cameral directly above goal line) to establish possession.

I'm for systematically eliminating all refs. Seriously, I can hardly wait until we have robotic refs and active sensor boundaries that eliminate the turd fest that is the NFL officiating crews.

Bronx33
11-24-2009, 04:55 PM
I never understood why we have oldmen with poor eyesight running around with the fastest guys on the planet calling penalties and making calls.

Tombstone RJ
11-24-2009, 04:59 PM
I bet it would cost less to implement said sensors and camaras into every NFL stadium than to pay one ref's salary for one year... but that is just a guess.

GreatBronco16
11-24-2009, 05:38 PM
It was close.

Nothing in the available replays was "indisputable" to overturn the initial fumble call.

I wonder why the NFL doesn't invest in goalline, backline, and sideline cams?

That might've helped.

Actually I think they only do it on prime time games. The Bears game Sunday night and the Monday night game had two shots where the camera was looking straight down the goal line. I'm yet to see a camera shot like that on the early games.

Taco John
11-24-2009, 05:48 PM
I can't believe how tough you're being on this guy. Lot's of rookies come into the league with this issue. They have to beef up their hand and forearm strength and learn how to overcome college habits. Hell, TD had 5 each his first two years. He'll get over it. Calling the kid "Tatum" is really over-doing it.


Lots of rookies come into the league with fumblitis. Not many of them keep getting goal line and third down carries when they continue to come up short or cough up the ball.

The book on the guy isn't written yet, but right now the pages are being filled with excuses and empty promises, and that's why I'm being tough on him. He's not living up to expectations. The chief reason our offense isn't working right now is that we're not getting enough out of our running game. Meanwhile people are pounding on the quarterback position, expecting Orton to do all the heavy lifting. And to his credit, he does it. But if we want to win in the end stretch of this season, we need to get more from our runners - and I don't see it coming from Moreno. He continues to disappoint.

I'll be happy as anyone when and if he turns it around. But right now we're gotten a pathetic four touchdown season from our runningbacks, which is better only than the Rams, Bills, Browns and Chiefs. Oakland has more rushing touchdowns than we do. HORRIBLE! So when you say that you can't believe how tough I am on the guy - I look at the terrible scoring production we're getting out of our VAUNTED DENVER RUNNING GAME and wonder when people are going to see fit to question what's going on there.

FOUR TOUCHDOWNS!? Are you kidding me? It shocks me how much criticism I take for pointing out the problems we're having there.

SJ Bronco
11-24-2009, 05:50 PM
I'm sorry, and I'll get hell for this, but I think this was already after the ball was loose. The fuzzy picture makes it look like he's holding it, but he's not. He had two hands on it when he fumbled, this is the ball flying loose.

alchemize
11-24-2009, 07:27 PM
Clearly a touchdown. 32-10 woo broncos!

DenverBound
11-24-2009, 07:57 PM
I'm sorry, and I'll get hell for this, but I think this was already after the ball was loose. The fuzzy picture makes it look like he's holding it, but he's not. He had two hands on it when he fumbled, this is the ball flying loose.

Negative. This still was taken BEFORE the ball hit Hochstein's knee. He had full possession of the ball before the contact was made.

SJ Bronco
11-24-2009, 08:10 PM
Negative. This still was taken BEFORE the ball hit Hochstein's knee. He had full possession of the ball before the contact was made.

A gif would work better, that pic is just too blurry and out of context, as Obama found pictures can be...

http://blog.taragana.com/e/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/obama-looking-at-girl.jpg

colonelbeef
11-24-2009, 08:11 PM
doesn't matter. The fact that the team seemed to give up after that play is indicative of a greater problem that would have surfaced anyway

DenverBound
11-24-2009, 08:36 PM
A gif would work better, that pic is just too blurry and out of context, as Obama found pictures can be...

http://blog.taragana.com/e/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/obama-looking-at-girl.jpg

I don't see anything wrong with that picture. Just a man admiring one of God's creations.

I don't know how to create .gifs. Sorry. I assure you though... This still was taken before contact was made and Knowshon clearly had possession of the ball before the contact was made. I am also sure that anyone with a decent amount of mathematical knowledge could break this down in regards to his bodies position relative to where the goal line is.

The call was blown, IMO. Could have been a MAJOR momentum factor going into and coming out of the half. I believe this is the play that just deflated the morale of the team. I know, there isn't much we can do about it now but it just sucks that games in the NFL are still decided by bull**** calls like this.

Oh and Hercules Rockefeller, Go **** yourself. I can guarantee that you did not have a better view of the play being at the game. It is a known fact that the view from home, especially on instant replays, is far better than anywhere in the stands. But hey, keep on hating. What ever works for you. Douche bag.