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View Full Version : Well, the scheme advantages are over...


Mediator12
11-24-2009, 08:19 AM
I said in an thread earlier this year that the NFL usually loses major scheme advantages in weeks 4 and 10. For this team, it looks like week six was a killer week for DEN. Teams started to use the No huddle offense to keep mediocre players on the field and deny the defense fresh subs to bolster the situational play of the defense. The offense started to get much worse play from its OL as teams finally caught on to the pass protection and running scheme changes they have changed. Injuries have shown the lack of depth at OT and QB to execute the new scheme.

So, what we have now is a team that was playing much better than the sum of its parts in the earlier stages of the year get nullified by teams who were able to expose its mediocre players without their scheme advantages. I was wrong earlier to think 6 weeks was enough time to call this a solid team, it just took longer than I thought for teams to expose the poor players on defense. It also took longer than usual to expose the offense and their ineffectiveness up front, especially without good QB play in the second half the last few weeks.

Overall, I am very disappointed to find that the players were not able to keep up such a high level of play without their scheme advantages. However, we have seen a lot of improvement in areas that really needed improvement. Right now, this is an average NFL team all over again. Yet, it is very different from the pushover team DEN has been the last few years. The sad thing is how exposed they have been the last few weeks. I wonder how much they actually can change down the stretch to hide those weaknesses. That was supposed to be a strength of this team. They were supposed to be able to utilize multidimensional gameplans on both sides of the ball week to week.

That is what the next 6 weeks will always show. The last 6 weeks of the season always favor the players over the systems. Teams know what you are and where you struggle and will devise creative ways to influence matchups. I just pray we will get to see players who learn and get better at what they struggle to do. That is what the next 6 weeks should be about for DEN. Find the players who can and will execute when its just about outplaying the guy in front of you.

elsid13
11-24-2009, 08:41 AM
We all knew this was coming, there are to many "smart" folks in the league not to figure out what going when comes to any team. My biggest concern is that appears that McDaniels and McCoy aren't finding ways to get the playmakers into the game. It would be nice to get Scheffer involved somehow, he give us such an advantage with his ability to go vertical and force the defense to respect what he does.

Florida_Bronco
11-24-2009, 01:43 PM
Bump for a relevant thread.

vancejohnson82
11-24-2009, 02:05 PM
didnt we know this coming into the season? In all honesty, i thought we would start off with some tough losses and get better as the team bought into the schemes. This team is VASTLY undertalented on both sides of the ball, in my opinion. We were playing perfect football for a while and protecting the ball and stopping 3rd down conversions.

lately, we are getting KILLED in the turnover battle and giving up a ton of 3rd downs. As a team that doesnt have the talent to mask those warts, the losses have begun to follow suit. Look for us begin blitzing a lot more and taking chances to try and force turnovers, something we really didnt try and do against SD. I would also liek to see us get more conservative on offense (I know everyone wants us to go downfield but we arent built for it) Set us up with some nice 3rd and shorts, so we can keep opposing Ds on their heels....nothing is better than a play action on 3rd and 2 to catch them off guard

not all is lost, but it will take a LOT to make the playoffs...in my mind we need a few teams to implode (baltimore and Jacksonville hopefully)

sisterhellfyre
11-24-2009, 02:07 PM
That is what the next 6 weeks will always show. The last 6 weeks of the season always favor the players over the systems. Teams know what you are and where you struggle and will devise creative ways to influence matchups. I just pray we will get to see players who learn and get better at what they struggle to do. That is what the next 6 weeks should be about for DEN. Find the players who can and will execute when its just about outplaying the guy in front of you.

Hey, Med12 --

I think this time still has a couple wins left in them over the next six weeks, but I'll be surprised if it's much more than that. If they can finish the season at 8-8 or 9-7, I'll call it a successful year.

We had a lot of turnover last off-season; that was McD cutting the deadwood like Jamie Winborn and Nate Webster. I'm expecting to see almost as much turnover again in the coming offseason for guys like Ben Hamilton and Peyton Hillis. The next round of turnover will be replacing the one-dimensional players who (for whatever reason) are not able to grasp and make the weekly adjustments that McD and Nolan want to make.

I don't think we've yet seen the full range of the adjustments and game plans that McD can bring to the table. That's because some of the players were "just good enough" to make the team this year with what McD asked of them. With more asked of them in the next offseason, some won't be able to keep up. They won't be around much longer. Next year I'm expecting to see just about as much change from this year as this year was from last year.

ant1999e
11-24-2009, 02:19 PM
We all knew this was coming, there are to many "smart" folks in the league not to figure out what going when comes to any team. My biggest concern is that appears that McDaniels and McCoy aren't finding ways to get the playmakers into the game. It would be nice to get Scheffer involved somehow, he give us such an advantage with his ability to go vertical and force the defense to respect what he does.

We need to play Hillis more. He is our savior. He would have over 1200 yards by now.:~ohyah!:

CEH
11-24-2009, 02:20 PM
This is the same logic I tried to apply against Mike Shanahan's record the past decade and we met with resistance even name calling.

No biggie as I was confindent in my premise that teams game plan the last 4 opponents so weeks 5-16 tells more about a team than weeks 1-4

As far as this year, the team need to play a near flawless game to win.

I have a feeling even if Moreno scores and Barrett catches the on sides kick SD would have just turned it up a notch on offense and we would have lost 23-13 or 26-13 . River could throw short, intermediate and deep and he didn't even throw one screen their bread and butter.

The WASH game was really the backbreaker with the stupid ST TD. Simms was horrible but down by 10 instead of 3 I think Wahsington may have gone to more passing and less running

baja
11-24-2009, 02:28 PM
thanks med

colonelbeef
11-24-2009, 02:29 PM
didnt we know this coming into the season? In all honesty, i thought we would start off with some tough losses and get better as the team bought into the schemes. This team is VASTLY undertalented on both sides of the ball, in my opinion. We were playing perfect football for a while and protecting the ball and stopping 3rd down conversions.

lately, we are getting KILLED in the turnover battle and giving up a ton of 3rd downs. As a team that doesnt have the talent to mask those warts, the losses have begun to follow suit. Look for us begin blitzing a lot more and taking chances to try and force turnovers, something we really didnt try and do against SD. I would also liek to see us get more conservative on offense (I know everyone wants us to go downfield but we arent built for it) Set us up with some nice 3rd and shorts, so we can keep opposing Ds on their heels....nothing is better than a play action on 3rd and 2 to catch them off guard

not all is lost, but it will take a LOT to make the playoffs...in my mind we need a few teams to implode (baltimore and Jacksonville hopefully)


No it isn't. This team was a top 5 talented team offensively headed into the offseason, and that is without the Moreno pick. Stop making excuses.

RaiderH8r
11-24-2009, 02:33 PM
didnt we know this coming into the season? In all honesty, i thought we would start off with some tough losses and get better as the team bought into the schemes. This team is VASTLY undertalented on both sides of the ball, in my opinion. We were playing perfect football for a while and protecting the ball and stopping 3rd down conversions.

lately, we are getting KILLED in the turnover battle and giving up a ton of 3rd downs. As a team that doesnt have the talent to mask those warts, the losses have begun to follow suit. Look for us begin blitzing a lot more and taking chances to try and force turnovers, something we really didnt try and do against SD. I would also liek to see us get more conservative on offense (I know everyone wants us to go downfield but we arent built for it) Set us up with some nice 3rd and shorts, so we can keep opposing Ds on their heels....nothing is better than a play action on 3rd and 2 to catch them off guard

not all is lost, but it will take a LOT to make the playoffs...in my mind we need a few teams to implode (baltimore and Jacksonville hopefully)

What I knew coming into the season was that we had a club with a borderline retarded defense and a top flight offense and that tossing the QB in favor of an inferior replacement wasn't the answer to the team's problems. Our problems on offense begin and end with McKid. Period.

vancejohnson82
11-24-2009, 02:37 PM
No it isn't. This team was a top 5 talented team offensively headed into the offseason, and that is without the Moreno pick. Stop making excuses.

what a joke....the O-line is old and starting to fall apart due to injuries this year....we had NO RB before we drafted Moreno...

adn the problem with this team was DEFENSE...there was no quick fix for that...you really want to tell me we have top NFL talent on that side of the ball??

our best players are all on the wrong side of 30 and I doubt anyone outside of Denver could name our defensive line

nobody is making excuses here....we have overachieved to this point in the season its just that some of you refuse to see that

elsid13
11-24-2009, 02:43 PM
what a joke....the O-line is old and starting to fall apart due to injuries this year....we had NO RB before we drafted Moreno...

adn the problem with this team was DEFENSE...there was no quick fix for that...you really want to tell me we have top NFL talent on that side of the ball??

our best players are all on the wrong side of 30 and I doubt anyone outside of Denver could name our defensive line

nobody is making excuses here....we have overachieved to this point in the season its just that some of you refuse to see that

We have 3 out 5 player on the offense line that have played less then 4 years? how is that old? In particular the LT is only in his second year and only going to get better. Meanwhile there is some depth on the oline with Olson and Polumbus. We need another guard and center but that doesn't mean the offense line is done. Here are all the guys under 30 that play makers for this team-

Marshall
Williams
Royal
Scheffer
Moreno
Clady
Harris
Dumervil
Larson
Woodyard
Kuper

TonyR
11-24-2009, 02:48 PM
This team was a top 5 talented team offensively headed into the offseason...

I'm not sure this is true. I think our O-line is smallish and not physical enought and this has been a problem against the better and more physical teams for years. This year, trying to run a scheme that doesn't best hide our O-lines flaws, this problem is being fully exposed. Now mix in a QB who really needs the help of a non-existent running game and we've got big problems.

BossChief
11-24-2009, 02:51 PM
Its almost like a certain Chiefs fan said something about scheming and how opposing teams will start to get an advantage RIGHT BEFORE THE FIRST LOSS. I know, I was a troll at the time and as it turns out I was correct in wanting to bet anyone on how Orton had played his best six game stretch of any time in the season and a certain someone kept telling me how they hadnt peeked and his best football was ahead of him....

As I said then, McD will begin to make his adjustments aftera couple weeks and I think he is smart enough to stay ahead of the curve just a bit.

All I got to say is you are welcome!

Rohirrim
11-24-2009, 03:15 PM
It is players (and depth) over scheme. I always go back to that same off tackle run that Joe Gibbs had the Hogs and Riggins run. Everybody knew they were going to do it, everybody schemed against it, and they rode that play to the SB. Nobody could stop it. The Elway bootleg or the ZBS with TD and the Zimmerman-Jones line. Everybody knew it was going to come and nobody could do anything to stop it. Get the players who can execute and shove it down the oppositions' throats. Football is simple. ;D

Atwater His Ass
11-24-2009, 03:36 PM
Its almost like a certain Chiefs fan said something about scheming and how opposing teams will start to get an advantage RIGHT BEFORE THE FIRST LOSS. I know, I was a troll at the time and as it turns out I was correct in wanting to bet anyone on how Orton had played his best six game stretch of any time in the season and a certain someone kept telling me how they hadnt peeked and his best football was ahead of him....

As I said then, McD will begin to make his adjustments aftera couple weeks and I think he is smart enough to stay ahead of the curve just a bit.

All I got to say is you are welcome!

That's why, outside of a few select posters, I don't come to this board for football discussion any longer.

Med's been saying this since the pre-season. People called him out on it as the 6 game win streak was going on.

Then, miracously, now after what's happened over the last month, all these same posters are coming in here and saying they knew all along we couldn't keep up the pace, etc. It's humorous I suppose.

colonelbeef
11-24-2009, 04:03 PM
I'm not sure this is true. I think our O-line is smallish and not physical enought and this has been a problem against the better and more physical teams for years. This year, trying to run a scheme that doesn't best hide our O-lines flaws, this problem is being fully exposed. Now mix in a QB who really needs the help of a non-existent running game and we've got big problems.

We totally agree on the scheme change being the cause of the majority of problems, but I liken it more to having Arod on your team and asking him to bunt. If the dude is good at hitting home runs, let him hit more runs. No need to reinvent the wheel.

This team was perfectly built to run at least a partly zone blocking-style scheme. It's not like it wasn't working. If it was proven to have failed, then so be it, blow it up. ZBS was the best thing to ever happen in Denver, and I don't see the reason for killing it off, just like if a new coach comes to pittsburgh, you don't suddenly try to make them into the greatest show on turf. You use what they do to your advantage- play hard nosed defense- and go from there.

The Denver Broncos are known for running the ball exceptionally well behind a smart, agile, athletic offensive line. It works. The players are young for the most part and understand, if not thrive in it. Too many players are now looking like they are completely lost after having shown flashes of brilliance in the past few years- Hillis, Royal, Sheffler come to mind specifically.

Seems more like an ego issue to me more than anything else. Hearing about McDaniels telling the Chargers LBs that "we own you" en route to a home 32-3 shellacking leads me to believe that his ego might be getting in the way of making good, sound football decisions.

Hopefully I am wrong, and hopefully he begins to re-implement what works.

Mediator12
11-24-2009, 04:55 PM
It is players (and depth) over scheme. I always go back to that same off tackle run that Joe Gibbs had the Hogs and Riggins run. Everybody knew they were going to do it, everybody schemed against it, and they rode that play to the SB. Nobody could stop it. The Elway bootleg or the ZBS with TD and the Zimmerman-Jones line. Everybody knew it was going to come and nobody could do anything to stop it. Get the players who can execute and shove it down the oppositions' throats. Football is simple. ;D

Football is simple if you have better players across the board than the other team. However, the NFL has more talent than the bad teams are given credit. There is not a team in the NFL that is better than every other team 22 deep every play, like College used to be.

What Makes pro football so damn hard to figure is how mental the game is versus just pure athletic talent. However, from week 11 the skill level of the players is so much more important than the scheme and play selection than the first 10 games.

Very few people here realize how complex every single play of an NFL game is compared to the HS and college games many here may be familiar. The fundamentals are still the same, but that is it. The systems that NFL teams actually run are so much more complex and involve so many more decisions pre and post snap its not even funny. Even the simplest NFL schemes today are 10 times more complex than college, and the reason is they have more time to devote to it. The schemes all have minute tweaks for every situation, opponent, and player.

The whole reason for this discussion is that DEN rode that excellent advantage early and they are now in a situation where they have to do something different than what got them here. Personally, I am apalled at how the defense seems to be reverting back to its read and react tendencies. What made them fun to watch was the aggressive style and playcalling they brought versus previous years. It was almost as fun as the second half of the 2005 AFCC team defense. Right now, they need to get back to making adjustments and start anticipating what and how teams plan to attack them better. The excellent defensive gameplanning and halftime adjustments have all disappeared. That needs to be changed and quick.

Offensively, they are breaking down right at the LOS. I would not be shocked to see some more ZBS and the pass protections they used early last year down the stretch. We know those guys can do it, they need to change it up a bit and stop being so damn predictable. In short, they need someone to self scout their ass better and make some set up plays. However, they have to get better up front if they want to get better. The OL should not be the reason this team is struggling offensively. It just should not be.

TonyR
11-24-2009, 05:43 PM
Seems more like an ego issue to me more than anything else.

That's certainly possible. I also think he feels that running the ZBS isn't/wasn't going to get it done against the better, more physical teams we'd have to beat in the playoffs. That's not the scheme he ran in NE, it's not the scheme he believes in, it's not the scheme he's comfortable with. The problem is this line was built to run that scheme. It's fine to start making the transition but you probably have to use the scheme that best suits the talent as at least part of your game plan. Regardless, I think the interior of the line needs to get bigger and stronger this offseason.

gtown
11-24-2009, 06:11 PM
Personally, I am apalled at how the defense seems to be reverting back to its read and react tendencies.

Offensively, they are breaking down right at the LOS. I would not be shocked to see some more ZBS and the pass protections they used early last year down the stretch.

Where did the creative blitzing go? Are we that afraid of the big play? Our only legitimate wins this year came on well timed run and pass blitzes.

I would personally love to see more ZBS because I think we can run well. But Orton might as well be wearing concrete shoes. I miss Cutler's feet much more than his arm in this regard.

BossChief
11-24-2009, 10:49 PM
That's why, outside of a few select posters, I don't come to this board for football discussion any longer.

Med's been saying this since the pre-season. People called him out on it as the 6 game win streak was going on.

Then, miracously, now after what's happened over the last month, all these same posters are coming in here and saying they knew all along we couldn't keep up the pace, etc. It's humorous I suppose.

For the record, I wasnt even here in preseason. So put that one to rest son.

It was meant in good fun, I think Med knows that. If you couldnt pick it up, I dont know what to tell you.

I was poking fun at med because we had a discussion on this topic in a previous thread.

But since you dont know what the hell you are talking about, heres a link to the thread so you can understand why I was poking fun. There are some true jewels in that thread from both of us.

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=86135&page=2

my first post is #50, take a few minutes to read through it so you dont attack a straw man again with ignorance.

Id like to add that you get butthurt wayyyyyy to easy. Take a mydol and get back to me, playa!

_i_O_i_

ZONA
11-24-2009, 11:08 PM
I hear what you are saying about the scheme and all and I agree that is partly true but not entirely. I honestly think it has been the big mistakes that have killed this team. You don't game plan for mistakes, they just happen when you are not prepared, don't know the situation and poor execution (and the occasional awesome play by the other guys who get paid also). For example, Moreno did not need to try and extend that ball over the goal line with a crowd of people there, on only 1st down. That's knowing the situation. The melt down in Washington on the fake kick was an example of poor execution at it's finest. They even knew the fake was coming and still could not execute a play to stop it (probably somebody forgot an assignment).

So yeah, I think partly it is people are learning what we do best but mistakes and also injuries do play their part.

BroncoInferno
11-24-2009, 11:16 PM
What I knew coming into the season was that we had a club with a borderline retarded defense and a top flight offense and that tossing the QB in favor of an inferior replacement wasn't the answer to the team's problems. Our problems on offense begin and end with McKid. Period.

You are thinking of some other team. The offense we had last season was not a "top flight" unit. They were 16th of scoring for the season, and 24th over the final 13 games. Also committed the second most turnovers in the league. Hardly a "top flight" group. But that myth persists in spite of the facts.

BossChief
11-24-2009, 11:24 PM
You are thinking of some other team. The offense we had last season was not a "top flight" unit. They were 16th of scoring for the season, and 24th over the final 13 games. Also committed the second most turnovers in the league. Hardly a "top flight" group. But that myth persists in spite of the facts.

Yeah..........but they were also #2 in offensive yardage. #3 passing....#12 rushing with a different back every week due to injury.

Thats a pretty top flight unit in most peoples terms.

BroncoInferno
11-24-2009, 11:31 PM
Yeah..........but they were also #2 in offensive yardage. #3 passing....#12 rushing with a different back every week due to injury.

Thats a pretty top flight unit in most peoples terms.

Scoring is what makes you a top flight unit in reality, not perception. They were only 16th in that department. And after a hot start in the first three games, they were only 24th over the final 13 games. Yardage is window dressing.

McDman
11-24-2009, 11:33 PM
Wait a second, there's nothing about Cutler, Brandstater, or firing McDaniels in this thread!

BLASPHEMY!

RaiderH8r
11-25-2009, 07:39 AM
Yeah..........but they were also #2 in offensive yardage. #3 passing....#12 rushing with a different back every week due to injury.

Thats a pretty top flight unit in most peoples terms.

Meanwhile the Wunderkind can't get his 1st round protege' to break 100 yds in a game and put up consistant numbers in the running game while last year managed to make a household name out of Peyton Hillis who now rides pine for the Wunderkind. Where is the Wunderkind's running game? He's got the stud back where's the production?

TailgateNut
11-25-2009, 07:43 AM
Yeah..........but they were also #2 in offensive yardage. #3 passing....#12 rushing with a different back every week due to injury.

Thats a pretty top flight unit in most peoples terms.

It'll get a few players a free trip to Hawaii. WOOOOOPEEE!Hilarious!

TonyR
11-25-2009, 08:01 AM
I honestly think it has been the big mistakes that have killed this team.

Mistakes and bad breaks have played their part, no doubt. When you think about it our downhill slide started on that pick 6 against the Steelers where our intended receiver got knocked out of the play by the referee. And we've had multiple plays and calls go the wrong way ever since. But for sure our overall lack of talent and depth has been the biggest reason.

colonelbeef
11-25-2009, 08:02 AM
Scoring is what makes you a top flight unit in reality, not perception. They were only 16th in that department. And after a hot start in the first three games, they were only 24th over the final 13 games. Yardage is window dressing.

And now the Broncos are 28th in scoring. McDaniels would take 16th in a heartbeat.

Last year the defense was the problem, not the offense. With a decent defense that produced a few turnovers (more possessions) here and there, a defense that was able to force a punt once in a while, that offense would have scored much more, with more possessions, on shorter fields.

But yeah, don't let logic and factual perception get in the way of your thought process there genius

400HZ
11-25-2009, 08:38 AM
McDaniels had your team in midseason form starting week one of the season. Now other teams are reaching that level both physically and schematically and nullifying the advantage that McDaniels had created.

gtown
11-25-2009, 08:48 AM
McDaniels had your team in midseason form starting week one of the season. Now other teams are reaching that level both physically and schematically and nullifying the advantage that McDaniels had created.

Not the offense. We have been terrible since day one. They are so out of sync I can't even articulate what specific things are wrong. But it runs the gamut. Orton is not synched with his receivers, the RBs are not synched with the oline's blocking schemes, the Olineman are not in sync with Orton's snap counts and are getting pushed off the POA. The offense has been putrid the whole season save for a couple of fluke plays, and everyone is at fault.

400HZ
11-25-2009, 10:21 AM
Not the offense. We have been terrible since day one. They are so out of sync I can't even articulate what specific things are wrong. But it runs the gamut. Orton is not synched with his receivers, the RBs are not synched with the oline's blocking schemes, the Olineman are not in sync with Orton's snap counts and are getting pushed off the POA. The offense has been putrid the whole season save for a couple of fluke plays, and everyone is at fault.

After the Cincinatti game, your offense was doing a great job of playing within the scheme, making efficient drives, and capitalizing on opportunities that presented themselves. If you ever expected an "explosive" offense with Kyle Orton then you were just setting yourselves up for disappointment. 27, 23, 17, 20, and 34 isn't terrible. What's happened since then is, though.

McDaniels has proven that he can coach. He needs time to develop just like young players do, and he needs to add to your talent level. Six wins with your squad isn't a colossal failure given what he was given when he took over.

cmhargrove
11-25-2009, 10:51 AM
I agree with the original post by Mediator, however,

If Ryan Harris and Orton hadn't been injured, I think we are looking at a definite 7-3 and maybe 8-2 record right now. The "stopping" and "starting" effect of rotating in the new o-linemen and QB had had a real impact on this unit. We aren't a SB team, but I still believe we should have had at least 1-2 more wins and still been in the driver's seat for the AFC West.

Also, I think we do have guys that are talented, and not just scheme players. I think we will need to stick with our running game, then hit the intermediate routes with Scheffler, Gaffney, and Royal. Marshall can beat any corner in the league in short routes + YAC. We still have the talent, and if Ryan Harris is back to his old form, I believe it will show tomorrow night vs. the Giants.

On defense, I agree we have scaled back our aggressiveness and that bothers me. I don't mind giving up a few big plays if it means we get more pressure on opposing QB's.

The last four weeks have been disheartening, but I look for that big rebound against the Giants. I think we can get 3-4 sacks on Manning, and as long as we don't cough the ball up, we should win.

TonyR
11-25-2009, 11:18 AM
...as long as we don't cough the ball up...

Speaking of which, we were a combined +7 in turnover differential during our first 6 games, and we're a -7 in our four losses.

Tom G
11-25-2009, 12:05 PM
You are thinking of some other team. The offense we had last season was not a "top flight" unit. They were 16th of scoring for the season, and 24th over the final 13 games. Also committed the second most turnovers in the league. Hardly a "top flight" group. But that myth persists in spite of the facts.

The offense was 2nd in yards, a purely offensive statistic. The TEAM was 16th in scoring, a combination of points contributed by the defense (Denver next to last), special teams (Denver next to last) and field goal efficiency (dead last). In addition, Denver was dead last in starting field position (we all know that it is harder to get points when starting deep in your own territory rather than near mid field) and "gift points" (takeaways by the defense within FG range - Denver dead last). When you normalize for those defense, ST and FG shortcomings, Denver was a top offense by both yards and offensive points.

gtown
11-25-2009, 12:17 PM
After the Cincinatti game, your offense was doing a great job of playing within the scheme, making efficient drives, and capitalizing on opportunities that presented themselves. If you ever expected an "explosive" offense with Kyle Orton then you were just setting yourselves up for disappointment. 27, 23, 17, 20, and 34 isn't terrible. What's happened since then is, though.

McDaniels has proven that he can coach. He needs time to develop just like young players do, and he needs to add to your talent level. Six wins with your squad isn't a colossal failure given what he was given when he took over.

I'll give you that the Broncos have put up some points. But the Oak and Cle games don't count. And our season high of 34 came against the chargers and featured two Eddie Royal ST touchdowns. 27 points is our greatest offensive output this year and it was against the Browns. We have great talent on the offensive side, but when every drive stutters on penalties, predictable playcalling, drops, fumbles, missed assignments, et al, you get the crappy offense we have.

TonyR
11-25-2009, 12:25 PM
The offense was 2nd in yards, a purely offensive statistic. The TEAM was 16th in scoring, a combination of points contributed by the defense (Denver next to last), special teams (Denver next to last) and field goal efficiency (dead last). In addition, Denver was dead last in starting field position (we all know that it is harder to get points when starting deep in your own territory rather than near mid field) and "gift points" (takeaways by the defense within FG range - Denver dead last). When you normalize for those defense, ST and FG shortcomings, Denver was a top offense by both yards and offensive points.

How were we in the red zone?

Tom G
11-25-2009, 12:34 PM
How were we in the red zone?

Better than McDs Patriots, 56% to 52% if memory serves me right.

Tom G
11-25-2009, 12:36 PM
Thats TDs, not FGs.

Beantown Bronco
11-25-2009, 12:37 PM
Meanwhile the Wunderkind can't get his 1st round protege' to break 100 yds in a game and put up consistant numbers in the running game while last year managed to make a household name out of Peyton Hillis who now rides pine for the Wunderkind. Where is the Wunderkind's running game? He's got the stud back where's the production?

Despite the fact that he's been sitting basically the entire 4th quarter most weeks because they've had to abandon the run, he's still on pace for significantly more yardage and TDs than any RB from last season.

vancejohnson82
11-25-2009, 01:28 PM
Despite the fact that he's been sitting basically the entire 4th quarter most weeks because they've had to abandon the run, he's still on pace for significantly more yardage and TDs than any RB from last season.

don't respond with any logic

just hate blindly

TonyR
11-25-2009, 05:24 PM
I'm not sure this is true. I think our O-line is smallish and not physical enought and this has been a problem against the better and more physical teams for years. This year, trying to run a scheme that doesn't best hide our O-lines flaws, this problem is being fully exposed. Now mix in a QB who really needs the help of a non-existent running game and we've got big problems.

Someone I shall allow to remain anonymous laughed at this post of mine via rep stating that we've been the number 1 rushing team in the league since 1995. For the record we were 8, 9, and 12 in '06, '07, and '08. Still good but we've declined from our previous run dominance and stuggled in short yardage situations and against the better, more physical defenses more recently.

colonelbeef
11-25-2009, 05:50 PM
The offense was 2nd in yards, a purely offensive statistic. The TEAM was 16th in scoring, a combination of points contributed by the defense (Denver next to last), special teams (Denver next to last) and field goal efficiency (dead last). In addition, Denver was dead last in starting field position (we all know that it is harder to get points when starting deep in your own territory rather than near mid field) and "gift points" (takeaways by the defense within FG range - Denver dead last). When you normalize for those defense, ST and FG shortcomings, Denver was a top offense by both yards and offensive points.

Worth a read for the Cutler detractors.

broncosteven
11-25-2009, 06:21 PM
Great Thread Med!

This is what I came here for. Not for being gullible in survivor and being hoodwinked by Baja.

I haven't heard this take about the difference between scheme and talent through 3rds of the season.

I was hoping this team would be built not to fade, to play harder as the season went on. The last 6 games will close the book on the team. It will be interesting to see the changes next year as another posted mentioned.

Great Thread!

Dean
11-25-2009, 06:31 PM
You are thinking of some other team. The offense we had last season was not a "top flight" unit. They were 16th of scoring for the season, and 24th over the final 13 games. Also committed the second most turnovers in the league. Hardly a "top flight" group. But that myth persists in spite of the facts.

If last year's #2 in total yards at 395 and 23.1 points per game is "hardly a top flight group". Then what is this year's 322 yards per game and 17 points per game? How can anyone not see that we have regressed?

rugbythug
11-25-2009, 07:40 PM
Am I the only one the actually watched the games last year? We did have some great Boom Games in the begining of the season. But to then go out and say we had a top flight offense is foolhardy. Top Flight brings it every game and show some kind of consistency.

broncolife
11-25-2009, 09:57 PM
After the Cincinatti game, your offense was doing a great job of playing within the scheme, making efficient drives, and capitalizing on opportunities that presented themselves. If you ever expected an "explosive" offense with Kyle Orton then you were just setting yourselves up for disappointment. 27, 23, 17, 20, and 34 isn't terrible. What's happened since then is, though.

McDaniels has proven that he can coach. He needs time to develop just like young players do, and he needs to add to your talent level. Six wins with your squad isn't a colossal failure given what he was given when he took over.

Denvers Offensive Drives in those games

27-
Punt
D forces a fumble and give the O the ball at the 9 for an easy 7.
Field goal
Punt
Missed Field goal
D forces a fumble and O gets it at the 38. O does crap and gets a field goal.
Missed Field goal
4thQ first real td drive
Td
trying to run clock and stoped on 4th
D intercepts, Orton takes a Knee

Basically give 10 points to the D. 27-10=17

23-

Stopped on 4th and goal.
D intercepts ball and O gets it at the 23. TD
D intercepts ball and O gets it at the 34. O does crap and gets a field goal.
Field goal
Td
Fumble Oak gets ball at our 16
D forces Oak to fumble the ball back at the 6 :) which leads to a field goal.
O starts at 49 and ends up punting
O starts at 44 and ends up punting
O starts at 44 and runs clock out

Basically give 13 points to the D. 23-13=10

17-
punt
punt
punt
D forces fumble and gives the O the ball at the 9. Easy Td
punt
Fumbles ball away at own 27
D gets ball back at 6 with a int :) end up Punting
O stuffed on 4th and 1 on Dallas 30
punt
field goal
Td

Basically give 7 points to the D 17-7=10

20-
field goal
Fumble, Ne gets 3 points
punt
punt
90 yard Td drive
Halftime Hail mary int
field goal
punt
98 yard Td drive
punt
punt
OT field goal

O gave Ne 3 points, but D had no turnovers = 20

34-punt
Eddie Royal td return
field goal
Eddie Royal td return
Punt Sproles return
missed field goal
punt
TD
D Forces a fumble and O gets the ball at SD 47 field goal
punt
TD
Special team and D gave 17 points. 34-17=17



In those 5 games they averaged around 15 points per game = Offense Sucks

bpc
11-25-2009, 10:43 PM
Football is simple if you have better players across the board than the other team. However, the NFL has more talent than the bad teams are given credit. There is not a team in the NFL that is better than every other team 22 deep every play, like College used to be.

What Makes pro football so damn hard to figure is how mental the game is versus just pure athletic talent. However, from week 11 the skill level of the players is so much more important than the scheme and play selection than the first 10 games.

Very few people here realize how complex every single play of an NFL game is compared to the HS and college games many here may be familiar. The fundamentals are still the same, but that is it. The systems that NFL teams actually run are so much more complex and involve so many more decisions pre and post snap its not even funny. Even the simplest NFL schemes today are 10 times more complex than college, and the reason is they have more time to devote to it. The schemes all have minute tweaks for every situation, opponent, and player.

The whole reason for this discussion is that DEN rode that excellent advantage early and they are now in a situation where they have to do something different than what got them here. Personally, I am apalled at how the defense seems to be reverting back to its read and react tendencies. What made them fun to watch was the aggressive style and playcalling they brought versus previous years. It was almost as fun as the second half of the 2005 AFCC team defense. Right now, they need to get back to making adjustments and start anticipating what and how teams plan to attack them better. The excellent defensive gameplanning and halftime adjustments have all disappeared. That needs to be changed and quick.

Offensively, they are breaking down right at the LOS. I would not be shocked to see some more ZBS and the pass protections they used early last year down the stretch. We know those guys can do it, they need to change it up a bit and stop being so damn predictable. In short, they need someone to self scout their ass better and make some set up plays. However, they have to get better up front if they want to get better. The OL should not be the reason this team is struggling offensively. It just should not be.

The worst part about McDaniels has been the arrogance he has shown this season in the fact that he will not adapt his scheme to the players we have in place.

Hence, we fail miserably in the run game and then on offense. Orton's skill is not good enough to carry our team to victories.

While our defense has some advantages, you've pointed out the obvious weaknesses. They cannot stay on the field for 40 minutes per game, especially with how old our DB's are.

McDaniels will have to adapt his approach if we're going to win this season. Turner and Dennison are still on the staff. They could easily get this OL humming again with a ZB setup.

Popps
11-25-2009, 11:07 PM
The worst part about McDaniels has been the arrogance he has shown this season in the fact that he will not adapt his scheme to the players we have in place.
.

Incorrect.

Mike Shanahan didn't come into Denver and build a winner by "adapting to talent." You don't slap a bunch of guys together and just try to guess what will work.

McDaniels has a plan, just like Shanahan. He's built a competitive, winning team during the installation of that plan.

You don't turn over your personnel to perfection in one off-season. Hence, you're going to have some struggles until you get guys that fit your scheme. We've still got changes to make.

Arrogance? Again, Chris... it's sad that you've got no football perspective left. Mike Shanahan was one of the most stubborn, arrogant coaches in the history of the league... and he was a champion. Don't expect McDaniels to come in and start playing patty-cake with people. He's got a plan, and you can either give him a chance to implement it... or you can continue the sob-story about the "glory days" of 1 playoff win in ten seasons.

uplink
11-25-2009, 11:48 PM
Scheme battles happen on a week to week basis IMO. The scheme flexibility is limited by the player talent and so teams get to know what your guys can do and can plan for it.


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Popps
11-25-2009, 11:53 PM
Good thread, Med... like usual.

I agree for the most part, though I think there's a lot of circumstantial data you have to factor in... luck, injuries, what teams we played and when.

Pittsburgh looked very average against KC. Baltimore came out flat against Cinci. Yet, both teams played near-flawless football against us.

Then, we lose our QB for two games, basically.

I'm not so sure our schemes have been rendered ineffective so much as our ability to execute them has been either compromised by injury, or simply running into some superior opponents.

But, sure... to an extent, a quality coaching staff can probably scheme their way through some wins earlier in the season... rather than later.

We're certainly not all the way there as far as personnel. I'm not sure how anyone could possible assume we were. (Not that YOU are saying that, but others act appalled that we're not loaded top to bottom after one off-season.)

We garbage on defense and a mediocre offense. This is simply going to take time, and new blood. Just like when Shanahan rebuilt the team.

bpc
11-26-2009, 02:34 AM
Incorrect.

Mike Shanahan didn't come into Denver and build a winner by "adapting to talent." You don't slap a bunch of guys together and just try to guess what will work.

McDaniels has a plan, just like Shanahan. He's built a competitive, winning team during the installation of that plan.

You don't turn over your personnel to perfection in one off-season. Hence, you're going to have some struggles until you get guys that fit your scheme. We've still got changes to make.

Arrogance? Again, Chris... it's sad that you've got no football perspective left. Mike Shanahan was one of the most stubborn, arrogant coaches in the history of the league... and he was a champion. Don't expect McDaniels to come in and start playing patty-cake with people. He's got a plan, and you can either give him a chance to implement it... or you can continue the sob-story about the "glory days" of 1 playoff win in ten seasons.

What would you call Anthony Miller in year 1, ran off in year 2? Mike Pritchard? Gone and gone.

The missing football perspective you speak of is the one that you inherently feel you need to protect when it comes to your demigod, Josh McDaniels.

I know, you're trying to spin this into a Mike Shanahan debate equating Josh to him... errr, wrong. Mike understood what he had going on, on offense and where he had to curt-tail things. Hell, Elway didn't get his full playbook until year 2 or 3 of his time with Mike. Both accounted this years ago.

Save the one-sided nonsense about McDaniels. He was hailed as an offensive guru and he's been anything but this year. His mis-use of our talent on offense is almost as painful to watch as Austin Powers changing directions in a golf-cart in a tight hallway.

We're 6-4 and on our way to 6-7. First team I can ever remember doing that. He needs to get his ass in gear, open his mind up a little bit and scale down his marginal offensive scheme which doesn't fit this current crop of players. Maybe then we'll get off the skids and start having some efficiency on offense. Right now we look pathetic.

SouthStndJunkie
11-26-2009, 02:40 AM
Speaking of which, we were a combined +7 in turnover differential during our first 6 games, and we're a -7 in our four losses.

Bingo....

fontaine
11-26-2009, 04:59 AM
We garbage on defense and a mediocre offense. This is simply going to take time, and new blood. Just like when Shanahan rebuilt the team.

We're not garbage on defense. The defense has just played more conservative football the past few weeks.

When the same group of guys were more aggressive and given complex blitz assignments they did their job very, very well.

CEH
11-26-2009, 07:50 AM
We're not garbage on defense. The defense has just played more conservative football the past few weeks.

When the same group of guys were more aggressive and given complex blitz assignments they did their job very, very well.

Agree. Defense is good enough to win this year

There are only 3 teams worst than us in RZ offense. Stl, Det and Clev

Last year we were better than NE in RZ offense and all I heard this offseason was how Orton was better RZ QB than Cutler.

We "upgraded" the RBs , same offense minus QB and coach and we are 22 in point and 25 in total offense.

The significant drop off falls squarely on the guy who traded the QB, calls all the plays and is HC/OC.

GeniusatWork
11-26-2009, 08:11 AM
Speaking of which, we were a combined +7 in turnover differential during our first 6 games, and we're a -7 in our four losses.

That is maybe the most important of the stats. I wouldn't know how much is related to scheme. No doubt some is related to scheme both Denver not executing their scheme as well and beiing outschemed by the other team.

loborugger
11-26-2009, 08:59 AM
I said in an thread earlier this year that the NFL usually loses major scheme advantages in weeks 4 and 10. For this team, it looks like week six was a killer week for DEN. Teams started to use the No huddle offense to keep mediocre players on the field and deny the defense fresh subs to bolster the situational play of the defense. The offense started to get much worse play from its OL as teams finally caught on to the pass protection and running scheme changes they have changed. Injuries have shown the lack of depth at OT and QB to execute the new scheme.

So, what we have now is a team that was playing much better than the sum of its parts in the earlier stages of the year get nullified by teams who were able to expose its mediocre players without their scheme advantages. I was wrong earlier to think 6 weeks was enough time to call this a solid team, it just took longer than I thought for teams to expose the poor players on defense. It also took longer than usual to expose the offense and their ineffectiveness up front, especially without good QB play in the second half the last few weeks.

Overall, I am very disappointed to find that the players were not able to keep up such a high level of play without their scheme advantages. However, we have seen a lot of improvement in areas that really needed improvement. Right now, this is an average NFL team all over again. Yet, it is very different from the pushover team DEN has been the last few years. The sad thing is how exposed they have been the last few weeks. I wonder how much they actually can change down the stretch to hide those weaknesses. That was supposed to be a strength of this team. They were supposed to be able to utilize multidimensional gameplans on both sides of the ball week to week.

That is what the next 6 weeks will always show. The last 6 weeks of the season always favor the players over the systems. Teams know what you are and where you struggle and will devise creative ways to influence matchups. I just pray we will get to see players who learn and get better at what they struggle to do. That is what the next 6 weeks should be about for DEN. Find the players who can and will execute when its just about outplaying the guy in front of you.

I like this take. I have been thinking along these lines, too.

Additionally, if this assessment is accurate, then its the reason we wont bounce back this season.

I think the Ravens and Steelers showed how to decimate our offense - blitz up the middle. Our OL cant handle it. And while B-more and Pitts specialize in blitzing up the gut, I think every team we play will try it until we burn them. And, like you said, the no huddle keeps us from rotating on 'D.'

As much as anything, this team needs more talent.

Florida_Bronco
11-26-2009, 09:22 AM
What would you call Anthony Miller in year 1, ran off in year 2? Mike Pritchard? Gone and gone. Excellent football decisions, just like booting Cutler's ass out of town was. Anthony Miller wasn't the most popular guy in the locker room and after we ran him out of town he had one mediocre year in Dallas before he was done. Pritchard was basically a bust in Denver and no one lost any sleep over losing him.

Save the one-sided nonsense about McDaniels. He was hailed as an offensive guru and he's been anything but this year. His mis-use of our talent on offense is almost as painful to watch as Austin Powers changing directions in a golf-cart in a tight hallway. You're just pissed because he's bringing his own style to Denver rather than continuing with the Shanahan-esque WCO.

We're 6-4 and on our way to 6-7. First team I can ever remember doing that. He needs to get his ass in gear, open his mind up a little bit and scale down his marginal offensive scheme which doesn't fit this current crop of players. Maybe then we'll get off the skids and start having some efficiency on offense. Right now we look pathetic. ****. That

I don't want McDaniels dumbing down his offense so a bunch of Shanahan holdovers can have a job. Throw the offense at them and those who get it will get it, and those who don't will get replaced in the offseason.

If that means we miss the playoffs this year, so be it. You tolerated it the last 3 years with Shanny, so you can ****ing live with it for McDaniel's first year.

TonyR
11-26-2009, 09:48 AM
That is maybe the most important of the stats.

I think turnover differential is number one and the deterioration of our run defense is number two.

The Chargers have a poor rush offense and killed us. Today we face a top 10 rush offense. If we don't improve we get beat decisively today.

TonyR
11-26-2009, 09:53 AM
You're just pissed because he's bringing his own style to Denver rather than continuing with the Shanahan-esque WCO.


Yep, McD is trying to install his style of offense, a style that has been considerably more successful in recent years than Shanahan's. Unfortunately our current talent, particularly the O-line, is more suited to run Shanahan's system. This creates a problem for McD: run a system he doesn't believe in and that he's not comfortable with or force his system? He'd probably be smart to run both to the extent possible.

oubronco
11-26-2009, 10:02 AM
Agree. Defense is good enough to win this year

There are only 3 teams worst than us in RZ offense. Stl, Det and Clev

Last year we were better than NE in RZ offense and all I heard this offseason was how Orton was better RZ QB than Cutler.

We "upgraded" the RBs , same offense minus QB and coach and we are 22 in point and 25 in total offense.

The significant drop off falls squarely on the guy who traded the QB, calls all the plays and is HC/OC.

But....but.....but.....he's a offensive mastermind a genius his scheme is the best ever.......................PLEASE

bpc
11-26-2009, 11:24 AM
Excellent football decisions, just like booting Cutler's ass out of town was. Anthony Miller wasn't the most popular guy in the locker room and after we ran him out of town he had one mediocre year in Dallas before he was done. Pritchard was basically a bust in Denver and no one lost any sleep over losing him.
You're just pissed because he's bringing his own style to Denver rather than continuing with the Shanahan-esque WCO.

****. That

I don't want McDaniels dumbing down his offense so a bunch of Shanahan holdovers can have a job. Throw the offense at them and those who get it will get it, and those who don't will get replaced in the offseason.

If that means we miss the playoffs this year, so be it. You tolerated it the last 3 years with Shanny, so you can ****ing live with it for McDaniel's first year.

I'm not questioning the moves that Shanny made cutting guys like Miller and Pritchard. What part did you miss there? It was right to move towards a different style player which fit in his offense, more possession WR's, who could run, catch, and block vs. speed guys like Miller and Pritchard. What i'm saying and what you're failing to comprehend is that he still kept them around for a season because he knew there would transition period for guys like Rod and Ed McCaffrey, who had never been front line guys that started ballgames.

Mike Shanahan adapted and Josh McDaniels has not, hence why his units in his first year had potential and why McD's look like anus. It's also why we'll probably end up missing the playoffs unless the defense can work out 40 minutes of dominant play again per game. With the age we have at DB, and the lack of dominant 3-4 players in the front 7, it's highly unlikely.

Some of you Shanahan haters crack me up. You were "SO ABUSED" during Shanny's final few years here.

Newsflash for ya, 22-25 teams in the NFL WISH they had won as much as we did, under Mike Shanahan.

We'll learn soon enough. This post is typical of how spoiled Bronco fans have been. I hope McD wins but if not, this should be sobering for many which will be good. It will give many perspective on how lucky we just were over the past 15 years.

bpc
11-26-2009, 11:29 AM
Yep, McD is trying to install his style of offense, a style that has been considerably more successful in recent years than Shanahan's. Unfortunately our current talent, particularly the O-line, is more suited to run Shanahan's system. This creates a problem for McD: run a system he doesn't believe in and that he's not comfortable with or force his system? He'd probably be smart to run both to the extent possible.

A system he had humming with Brady, Randy Moss, and Wes Welker at the helm, and a established iso blocking offensive line. The skill position players are among the best in the league at what they do. Brady throwing deep and having a strong arm, Moss breaking deep coverages and Welker eating up the underneath coverage and getting 1st downs.

Hey, what do we have here? NOT THAT. We have capable WR's, although not at that level, but no QB who can consistently get them the ball.

McD doesn't need to destroy his system, he needs to adapt a few pieces, like with the running game to get the most out of this season. I have no problem with his passing game. Orton's noodle arm will only take us so far which is why we have so many slants, bubble screens and misdirection pass plays. Still, this was a top notch ZBS offensive line last year even with 7 backups playing at HB. They found a way to get production. Moreno is more talented than a guy like Tatum Bell so it seems pretty obvious to me that we should adapt the two pieces and get something servicable from a abominable rushing attack.

Just my thoughts. It would be the smart decision but with our coach's AND fans arrogance at jamming a square block into a circular hole, it seems to have missed a few brains along the way.

Good grief.