View Full Version : Global Warming: Yet still no debate?
Smiling Assassin27
11-20-2009, 08:38 AM
Read this correspondence from global warming proponents and ask yourself just how much more of this 'science' is out there. Settled, my arse:
http://www.investigatemagazine.com/australia/latestissue.pdf
http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/index.php/heraldsun/comments/hadley_hacked#63657
Commentary between italicized emails and quotes by Ed Morrissey.
Do hacked e-mails show global-warming fraud?
Controversy has exploded onto the Internet after a major global-warming advocacy center in the UK had its e-mail system hacked and the data published on line. The director of the University of East Anglia Climate Research Unit confirmed that the e-mails are genuine — and Australian publication Investigate and the Australian Herald-Sun report that those e-mails expose a conspiracy to hide detrimental information from the public that argues against global warming (via Watt’s Up With That):
The internet is on fire this morning with confirmation computers at one of the world’s leading climate research centres were hacked, and the information released on the internet.
A 62 megabyte zip file, containing around 160 megabytes of emails, pdfs and other documents, has been confirmed as genuine by the head of the University of East Anglia’s Climate Research Unit, Dr Phil Jones.
In an exclusive interview with Investigate magazine’s TGIF Edition, Jones confirms his organization has been hacked, and the data flying all over the internet appears to have come from his organisation.
“It was a hacker. We were aware of this about three or four days ago that someone had hacked into our system and taken and copied loads of data files and emails."
One of the most damning e-mails published comes from Dr. Jones himself. In an e-mail from almost exactly ten years ago, Jones appears to discuss a method of overlaying data of temperature declines with repetitive, false data of higher temperatures:
From: Phil Jones
To: ray bradley ,mann@[snipped], mhughes@
[snipped]
Subject: Diagram for WMO Statement
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 13:31:15 +0000
Cc: k.briffa@[snipped],t.osborn@[snipped]
Dear Ray, Mike and Malcolm,
Once Tim’s got a diagram here we’ll send that either later today or first thing tomorrow. I’ve just completed Mike’s Nature trick of adding in the real temps to each series for the last 20 years (ie from 1981 onwards) amd [sic] from1961 for Keith’s to hide the decline. Mike’s series got the annual land and marine values while the other two got April-Sept for NH land N of 20N. The latter two are real for 1999, while the estimate for 1999 for NH combined is +0.44C wrt 61-90. The Global estimate for 1999 with data through Oct is +0.35C cf. 0.57 for 1998.
Thanks for the comments, Ray.
Cheers, Phil
Prof. Phil Jones
Climatic Research Unit
Jones told Investigate that he couldn’t remember the context of “hide the decline,” and that the process was a way to fill data gaps rather than mislead. But when scientists talk about “tricks” in the context of hiding data, it certainly seems suspicious.
Andrew Bolt points to a couple of other suspicious entries in the database as well for the Herald-Sun. For instance, here we have scientists discussing how to delete inconvenient data in order to emphasize other data that supports their conclusions:
From: Tom Wigley [...]
To: Phil Jones [...]
Subject: 1940s
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2009 23:25:38 -0600
Cc: Ben Santer [...]
Phil,
Here are some speculations on correcting SSTs to partly explain the 1940s warming blip. If you look at the attached plot you will see that theland also shows the 1940s blip (as I’m sure you know).
So, if we could reduce the ocean blip by, say, 0.15 degC, then this would be significant for the global mean – but we’d still have to explain the land blip. I’ve chosen 0.15 here deliberately. This still leaves an ocean blip, and i think one needs to have some form of ocean blip to explain the land blip (via either some common forcing, or ocean forcing land, or vice versa, or all of these). When you look at other blips, the land blips are 1.5 to 2 times (roughly) the ocean blips—higher sensitivity plus thermal inertia effects. My 0.15 adjustment leaves things consistent with this, so you can see where I am coming from.
Removing ENSO does not affect this.
It would be good to remove at least part of the 1940s blip, but we are still left with “why the blip”.
Let me go further. If you look at NH vs SH and the aerosol effect (qualitatively or with MAGICC) then with a reduced ocean blip we get continuous warming in the SH, and a cooling in the NH—just as one would expect with mainly NH aerosols.
The other interesting thing is (as Foukal et al. note – from MAGICC) that the 1910-40 warming cannot be solar. The Sun can get at most 10% of this with Wang et al solar, less with Foukal solar. So this may well be NADW, as Sarah and I noted in 1987 (and also Schlesinger later). A reduced SST blip in the 1940s makes the 1910-40 warming larger than the SH (which it currently is not)—but not really enough.
So … why was the SH so cold around 1910? Another SST problem? (SH/NH data also attached.)
This stuff is in a report I am writing for EPRI, so I’d appreciate any comments you (and Ben) might have.
Tom.
Hmmm. Sounds like “hid the data” once again. And here we have them privately admitting that they can’t find the global warming that they’ve been predicting:
[I]From: Kevin Trenberth
To: Michael Mann
Subject: Re: BBC U-turn on climate
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2009 08:57:37 -0600
Cc: Stephen H Schneider , Myles Allen , peter stott , “Philip D. Jones” , Benjamin Santer , Tom Wigley , Thomas R Karl , Gavin Schmidt , James Hansen , Michael Oppenheimer
Hi all
Well I have my own article on where the heck is global warming ? We are asking that here in Boulder where we have broken records the past two days for the coldest days on record. We had 4 inches of snow. The high the last 2 days was below 30F and the normal is 69F, and it smashed the previous records for these days by 10F. The low was about 18F and also a record low, well below the previous record low.
This is January weather (see the Rockies baseball playoff game was canceled on saturday and then played last night in below freezing weather).
Trenberth, K. E., 2009: An imperative for climate change planning: tracking Earth’s global energy. Current Opinion in Environmental Sustainability, 1, 19-27, doi:10.1016/j.cosust.2009.06.001. [1][PDF] (A PDF of the published version can be obtained from the author.)
***
The fact is that we can’t account for the lack of warming at the moment and it is a travesty that we can’t. The CERES data published in the August BAMS 09 supplement on 2008 shows there should be even more warming: but the data are surely wrong. Our observing system is inadequate.***
Do scientists use data to test theories, or do they use theories to test data? Scientists will claim the former, but here we have scientists who cling to the theory so tightly that they reject the data. That’s not science; it’s religious belief.
Dr. Jones has confirmed that these e-mails are genuine. Whether the work represented by these scientists is as genuine seems to be under serious question.
Update : This follows on a more mundane controversy over competence at Hadley that erupted in September:
A scientific scandal is casting a shadow over a number of recent peer-reviewed climate papers.
At least eight papers purporting to reconstruct the historical temperature record times may need to be revisited, with significant implications for contemporary climate studies, the basis of the IPCC’s assessments. A number of these involve senior climatologists at the British climate research centre CRU at the University East Anglia. In every case, peer review failed to pick up the errors.
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/09/29/yamal_scandal/print.html
A tempest in a teapot.
It's interesting that the denialosphere is more interested in those cherry-picked emails than they are in the other files. Why?
Smiling Assassin27
11-20-2009, 09:31 AM
A tempest in a teapot.
It's interesting that the denialosphere is more interested in those cherry-picked emails than they are in the other files. Why?
The same reason that people are more interested in the fabricated embryonic stem cell research that was admitted to by the world's leading reseracher. Because it matters to the credibility of the 'science' that has been presented to this point.
The reason they are cherry picked is because they openly admit and display deception with regard to the 'scientific' results they've claimed on this issue. The bigger question is why you will not deal with the emails openly and honestly when they are right here in black and white and clearly point to uncertainty, fudging of numbers, and inadequate models of observation.
The same reason that people are more interested in the fabricated embryonic stem cell research that was admitted to by the world's leading reseracher. Because it matters to the credibility of the 'science' that has been presented to this point.
There's nothing of any real significance. I mean, < 1100 emails over nearly 14 years? That's a ridiculously small selection.
The reason they are cherry picked is because they openly admit and display deception with regard to the 'scientific' results they've claimed on this issue.
Deception? Hardly. Without a fuller context, claiming 'deception' is silly.
The bigger question is why you will not deal with the emails openly and honestly when they are right here in black and white and clearly point to uncertainty, fudging of numbers, and inadequate models of observation.
We know there's uncertainty, and we know observations are inadequate. Those are not earth-shaking facts.
As for "fudging of numbers" - again, without context, it's a baseless accusation.
I realize that the denialosphere is orgasming like mad over this stuff, but once they calm down, they'll be shown to be overstating their case (massively) as they always do.
Rohirrim
11-20-2009, 11:00 AM
It's pretty clear what kind of "debate" the Right, and their corporate masters, want to engage in; The same debate the church wanted to have with Galileo.
Read this correspondence from global warming proponents and ask yourself just how much more of this 'science' is out there.
Uh-hunh.
frerottenextelway
11-20-2009, 02:01 PM
I was a fool and downloaded everything. Here's one of the cited quotes in broader context.
From: Kevin Trenberth <trenbert@ucar.edu>
To: Michael Mann <mann@meteo.psu.edu>
Subject: Re: BBC U-turn on climate
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 08:36:36 -0600
Cc: Tom Wigley <wigley@ucar.edu>, Stephen H Schneider <shs@stanford.edu>, Myles Allen <allen@atm.ox.ac.uk>, peter stott <peter.stott@metoffice.gov.uk>, "Philip D. Jones" <p.jones@uea.ac.uk>, Benjamin Santer <santer1@llnl.gov>, Thomas R Karl <Thomas.R.Karl@noaa.gov>, Gavin Schmidt <gschmidt@giss.nasa.gov>, James Hansen <jhansen@giss.nasa.gov>, Michael Oppenheimer <omichael@Princeton.EDU>
Mike
Here are some of the issues as I see them:
Saying it is natural variability is not an explanation. What are the physical processes?
Where did the heat go? We know there is a build up of ocean heat prior to El Nino, and a
discharge (and sfc T warming) during late stages of El Nino, but is the observing system
sufficient to track it? Quite aside from the changes in the ocean, we know there are major
changes in the storm tracks and teleconnections with ENSO, and there is a LOT more rain on
land during La Nina (more drought in El Nino), so how does the albedo change overall
(changes in cloud)? At the very least the extra rain on land means a lot more heat goes
into evaporation rather than raising temperatures, and so that keeps land temps down: and
should generate cloud. But the resulting evaporative cooling means the heat goes into
atmosphere and should be radiated to space: so we should be able to track it with CERES
data. The CERES data are unfortunately wonting and so too are the cloud data. The ocean
data are also lacking although some of that may be related to the ocean current changes and
burying heat at depth where it is not picked up. If it is sequestered at depth then it
comes back to haunt us later and so we should know about it.
Kevin
Michael Mann wrote:
Kevin, that's an interesting point. As the plot from Gavin I sent shows, we can easily
account for the observed surface cooling in terms of the natural variability seen in
the CMIP3 ensemble (i.e. the observed cold dip falls well within it). So in that sense,
we can "explain" it. But this raises the interesting question, is there something going
on here w/ the energy & radiation budget which is inconsistent with the modes of
internal variability that leads to similar temporary cooling periods within the models.
I'm not sure that this has been addressed--has it?
m
On Oct 14, 2009, at 10:17 AM, Kevin Trenberth wrote:
Hi Tom
How come you do not agree with a statement that says we are no where close to knowing where
energy is going or whether clouds are changing to make the planet brighter. We are not
close to balancing the energy budget. The fact that we can not account for what is
happening in the climate system makes any consideration of geoengineering quite hopeless as
we will never be able to tell if it is successful or not! It is a travesty!
Kevin
Tom Wigley wrote:
Dear all,
At the risk of overload, here are some notes of mine on the recent
lack of warming. I look at this in two ways. The first is to look at
the difference between the observed and expected anthropogenic trend relative to the pdf
for unforced variability. The second is to remove ENSO, volcanoes and TSI variations
from the observed data.
Both methods show that what we are seeing is not unusual. The second
method leaves a significant warming over the past decade.
These sums complement Kevin's energy work.
Kevin says ... "The fact is that we can't account for the lack of warming at the moment
and it is a travesty that we can't". I do not
agree with this.
Tom.
+++++++++++++++++++++++
Kevin Trenberth wrote:
Hi all
Well I have my own article on where the heck is global warming? We are asking that here
in Boulder where we have broken records the past two days for the coldest days on
record. We had 4 inches of snow. The high the last 2 days was below 30F and the normal
is 69F, and it smashed the previous records for these days by 10F. The low was about
18F and also a record low, well below the previous record low. This is January weather
(see the Rockies baseball playoff game was canceled on saturday and then played last
night in below freezing weather).
Trenberth, K. E., 2009: An imperative for climate change planning: tracking Earth's
global energy. /Current Opinion in Environmental Sustainability/, *1*, 19-27,
doi:10.1016/j.cosust.2009.06.001. [PDF]
<[1]http://www.cgd.ucar.edu/cas/Trenberth/trenberth.papers/EnergyDiagnostics09final.pdf>
(A PDF of the published version can be obtained from the author.)
The fact is that we can't account for the lack of warming at the moment and it is a
travesty that we can't. The CERES data published in the August BAMS 09 supplement on
2008 shows there should be even more warming: but the data are surely wrong. Our
observing system is inadequate.
That said there is a LOT of nonsense about the PDO. People like CPC are tracking PDO on
a monthly basis but it is highly correlated with ENSO. Most of what they are seeing is
the change in ENSO not real PDO. It surely isn't decadal. The PDO is already reversing
with the switch to El Nino. The PDO index became positive in September for first time
since Sept 2007. see
[2]http://www.cpc.ncep.noaa.gov/products/GODAS/ocean_briefing_gif/global_ocean_monitorin
g_current.ppt
Kevin
Michael Mann wrote:
extremely disappointing to see something like this appear on BBC. its particularly odd,
since climate is usually Richard Black's beat at BBC (and he does a great job). from
what I can tell, this guy was formerly a weather person at the Met Office.
We may do something about this on RealClimate, but meanwhile it might be appropriate for
the Met Office to have a say about this, I might ask Richard Black what's up here?
mike
On Oct 12, 2009, at 2:32 AM, Stephen H Schneider wrote:
Hi all. Any of you want to explain decadal natural variability and signal to noise and
sampling errors to this new "IPCC Lead Author" from the BBC? As we enter an El Nino
year and as soon, as the sunspots get over their temporary--presumed--vacation worth a
few tenths of a Watt per meter squared reduced forcing, there will likely be another
dramatic upward spike like 1992-2000. I heard someone--Mike Schlesinger maybe??--was
willing to bet alot of money on it happening in next 5 years?? Meanwhile the past 10
years of global mean temperature trend stasis still saw what, 9 of the warmest in
reconstructed 1000 year record and Greenland and the sea ice of the North in big
retreat?? Some of you observational folks probably do need to straighten this out as my
student suggests below. Such "fun", Cheers, Steve
Stephen H. Schneider
Melvin and Joan Lane Professor for Interdisciplinary Environmental Studies,
Professor, Department of Biology and
Senior Fellow, Woods Institute for the Environment
Mailing address:
Yang & Yamazaki Environment & Energy Building - MC 4205
473 Via Ortega
Ph: 650 725 9978
F: 650 725 4387
Websites: climatechange.net
patientfromhell.org
----- Forwarded Message -----
From: "Narasimha D. Rao" <[3]ndrao@stanford.edu <[4]mailto:ndrao@stanford.edu>>
To: "Stephen H Schneider" <[5]shs@stanford.edu <[6]mailto:shs@stanford.edu>>
Sent: Sunday, October 11, 2009 10:25:53 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific
Subject: BBC U-turn on climate
Steve,
You may be aware of this already. Paul Hudson, BBC's reporter on climate change, on
Friday wrote that there's been no warming since 1998, and that pacific oscillations will
force cooling for the next 20-30 years. It is not outrageously biased in presentation as
are other skeptics' views.
[7]http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/8299079.stm
[8]http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/damianthompson/100013173/the-bbcs-amazing-u-turn-on
-climate-change/
BBC has significant influence on public opinion outside the US.
Do you think this merits an op-ed response in the BBC from a scientist?
Narasimha
-------------------------------
PhD Candidate,
Emmett Interdisciplinary Program in Environment and Resources (E-IPER)
Stanford University
Tel: 415-812-7560
--
Michael E. Mann
Professor
Director, Earth System Science Center (ESSC)
Department of Meteorology Phone: (814) 863-4075
503 Walker Building FAX: (814) 865-3663
The Pennsylvania State University email: [9]mann@psu.edu <[10]mailto:mann@psu.edu>
University Park, PA 16802-5013
website: [11]http://www.meteo.psu.edu/~mann/Mann/index.html
<[12]http://www.meteo.psu.edu/%7Emann/Mann/index.html>
"Dire Predictions" book site:
[13]http://www.essc.psu.edu/essc_web/news/DirePredictions/index.html
--
****************
Kevin E. Trenberth e-mail: [14]trenbert@ucar.edu
Climate Analysis Section, [15]www.cgd.ucar.edu/cas/trenbert.html
NCAR
P. O. Box 3000, (303) 497 1318
Boulder, CO 80307 (303) 497 1333 (fax)
Street address: 1850 Table Mesa Drive, Boulder, CO 80305
--
****************
Kevin E. Trenberth e-mail: [16]trenbert@ucar.edu
Climate Analysis Section, [17]www.cgd.ucar.edu/cas/trenbert.html
NCAR
P. O. Box 3000, (303) 497 1318
Boulder, CO 80307 (303) 497 1333 (fax)
Street address: 1850 Table Mesa Drive, Boulder, CO 80305
--
Michael E. Mann
Professor
Director, Earth System Science Center (ESSC)
Department of Meteorology Phone: (814) 863-4075
503 Walker Building FAX: (814) 865-3663
The Pennsylvania State University email: [18]mann@psu.edu
University Park, PA 16802-5013
website: [19]http://www.meteo.psu.edu/~mann/Mann/index.html
"Dire Predictions" book site:
[20]http://www.essc.psu.edu/essc_web/news/DirePredictions/index.html
--
****************
Kevin E. Trenberth e-mail: [21]trenbert@ucar.edu
Climate Analysis Section, [22]www.cgd.ucar.edu/cas/trenbert.html
NCAR
P. O. Box 3000, (303) 497 1318
Boulder, CO 80307 (303) 497 1333 (fax)
Street address: 1850 Table Mesa Drive, Boulder, CO 80305
References
1. http://www.cgd.ucar.edu/cas/Trenberth/trenberth.papers/EnergyDiagnostics09final.pdf
2. http://www.cpc.ncep.noaa.gov/products/GODAS/ocean_briefing_gif/global_ocean_monitoring_current.ppt
3. mailto:ndrao@stanford.edu
4. mailto:ndrao@stanford.edu
5. mailto:shs@stanford.edu
6. mailto:shs@stanford.edu
7. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/8299079.stm
8. http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/damianthompson/100013173/the-bbcs-amazing-u-turn-on-climate-change/
9. mailto:mann@psu.edu
10. mailto:mann@psu.edu
11. http://www.meteo.psu.edu/~mann/Mann/index.html
12. http://www.meteo.psu.edu/%7Emann/Mann/index.html
13. http://www.essc.psu.edu/essc_web/news/DirePredictions/index.html
14. mailto:trenbert@ucar.edu
15. http://www.cgd.ucar.edu/cas/trenbert.html
16. mailto:trenbert@ucar.edu
17. http://www.cgd.ucar.edu/cas/trenbert.html
18. mailto:mann@psu.edu
19. http://www.meteo.psu.edu/%7Emann/Mann/index.html
20. http://www.essc.psu.edu/essc_web/news/DirePredictions/index.html
21. mailto:trenbert@ucar.edu
22. http://www.cgd.ucar.edu/cas/trenbert.html
frerottenextelway
11-20-2009, 02:37 PM
I've read through quite of few of the emails. The alleged "conspiracy" is quite amusing when actually looking at a true sample of them.
Bronco Bob
11-21-2009, 02:48 PM
Debating Global Warming at this point in time is like debating whether gravity exists or if the earth is round.
Every intelligent person accepts it and only the nuts with an agenda are the ones
questioning it.
TexanBob
11-21-2009, 03:52 PM
Debating Global Warming at this point in time is like debating whether gravity exists or if the earth is round.
Every intelligent person accepts it and only the nuts with an agenda are the ones
questioning it.
Spoken like a closed-minded bigot. Sorry for disproving your religion.
Your GW theory is being blown to smithereens and you can't handle it.
Where are all the Katrinas the Left promised us? Why isn't New York City underwater? Show us the drowning polar bears.
Face it! You were duped. At least you aren't alone. Every liberal loon throughout the world drank the Kool-Aid with you or just gave lip service to it because it made such an easy excuse to implement world government.
Only people who believed GW as a matter of faith could possibly still believe in it. The contradictory evidence is everywhere and even these "scientists" behind the curtain are admitting it.
frerottenextelway
11-21-2009, 04:10 PM
http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2009/11/the-cru-hack/#more-1853
cutthemdown
11-21-2009, 04:17 PM
Somewhere a very rich Al Gore is lighting a cigar.
Your GW theory is being blown to smithereens and you can't handle it.
How has it been "blown to smithereens"? Where's the peer-reviewed literature that makes a convincing argument for a different explanation for the observed changes in climate?
Blogs don't count.
Only people who believed GW as a matter of faith could possibly still believe in it. The contradictory evidence is everywhere and even these "scientists" behind the curtain are admitting it.
What "contradictory evidence"? What scientists are "admitting" it?
Show me. And then show that you understand.
atomicbloke
11-21-2009, 04:48 PM
Why do people speak as if Al Gore started the global warming debate...
Climate change research has been going on for decades in research labs and institutions around the world...
Global warming is not specific to Al Gore or to American politics... even if Al Gore is convicted for fraud tomorrow, it does not add or subtract to global warming research.... Al Gore is NOT a scientist...
The overwhelming scientific consensus around the world is that global warming is real and influenced by human beings.... there are dissenting scientific opinions, but that is the case in all fields of science.....
If you want to disprove global warming, you will have to present in-depth scientific analysis and have to yourself understand the science behind it.... global warming is a SCIENTIFIC debate NOT a POLITICAL debate....
Bronco Bob
11-21-2009, 09:30 PM
Spoken like a closed-minded bigot. Sorry for disproving your religion.
So I'm being closed minded when I don't allow that the earth might be flat
or that it is riding on the back of a giant turtle?
Your GW theory is being blown to smithereens and you can't handle it.
By who? Certainly not any legitimate scientists that know of what they speak.
Only people who believed GW as a matter of faith could possibly still believe in it. The contradictory evidence is everywhere and even these "scientists" behind the curtain are admitting it.
Only right wing dupes still deny Gloabal Warming.
Why do people speak as if Al Gore started the global warming debate...
Climate change research has been going on for decades in research labs and institutions around the world...
Global warming is not specific to Al Gore or to American politics... even if Al Gore is convicted for fraud tomorrow, it does not add or subtract to global warming research.... Al Gore is NOT a scientist...
The overwhelming scientific consensus around the world is that global warming is real and influenced by human beings.... there are dissenting scientific opinions, but that is the case in all fields of science.....
If you want to disprove global warming, you will have to present in-depth scientific analysis and have to yourself understand the science behind it.... global warming is a SCIENTIFIC debate NOT a POLITICAL debate....
Sorry the onus is first on you to prove Global Warming is not dominated by a natural cycle and the threat of the magnitude the current increases will lead to catastrophic changes that are worth the massive costs of supposed prevention, not the other way around. You are the ones that want to impose trillions in taxes and fees worldwide that will hurt the world's poorest in the name of environmentalism so you better be right.
You have already done plenty of damage with your biofuel programs so to continue to have you ravage the planet in ways that unlike global warming are quite real and easy to measure with your dubious science is not morally correct.
On these pages we have definitively shown it has been much warmer in the last 1000 years than it is now by about 2 or 3 degrees. Not a single lucid counter argument has been brought forth from our team of resident amateur scientists regarding the medieval warm period or explaining the mechanism that caused it cannot reasonably be the same mechanism for the current warming.
You may gain some street cred if you can explain this but so far none of you have any rational explainations.
We should eliminate pollution, we should stop cutting down forests, we should protect wildlife, but we should not take a completely irrational view on this warming threat nonsense.
On the list of threats to the earth and its inhabitants it is in the bottom 50 of the top 100 things to worry about. Lets get some perspective here people.
Bronco Yoda
11-21-2009, 10:39 PM
Mundus vult decipi
Mundus vult decipi
Ego congruo.
atomicbloke
11-22-2009, 12:57 AM
Sorry the onus is first on you to prove Global Warming is not dominated by a natural cycle and the threat of the magnitude the current increases will lead to catastrophic changes that are worth the massive costs of supposed prevention, not the other way around. You are the ones that want to impose trillions in taxes and fees worldwide that will hurt the world's poorest in the name of environmentalism so you better be right.
You have already done plenty of damage with your biofuel programs so to continue to have you ravage the planet in ways that unlike global warming are quite real and easy to measure with your dubious science is not morally correct.
On these pages we have definitively shown it has been much warmer in the last 1000 years than it is now by about 2 or 3 degrees. Not a single lucid counter argument has been brought forth from our team of resident amateur scientists regarding the medieval warm period or explaining the mechanism that caused it cannot reasonably be the same mechanism for the current warming.
You may gain some street cred if you can explain this but so far none of you have any rational explainations.
We should eliminate pollution, we should stop cutting down forests, we should protect wildlife, but we should not take a completely irrational view on this warming threat nonsense.
On the list of threats to the earth and its inhabitants it is in the bottom 50 of the top 100 things to worry about. Lets get some perspective here people.
No. Not any longer.
Global Warming is established science. Has been so for many years.
That is the overwhelming scientific opinion. From scientists who have been working on this for decades. It is all laid out in peer-reviewed literature.
So the onus is now on you to disprove it. And cherry picking a few blogs is not going to do it. Show us that the overwhelming peer-reviewed literature points against global warming. It does not exist. A few opinions do, but there are dissenting opinions in every field of science.
You might win this back and forth personal argument with me due to better internet debate skills, but that has no bearing on the science of global warming. You can cry hoax hoax hoax for all your care, but it has no effect on the science.
Global warming is real whether you like it or not. Your's and my personal opinions will not change that.
Period.
No. Not any longer.
Global Warming is established science. Has been so for many years.
That is the overwhelming scientific opinion. From scientists who have been working on this for decades. It is all laid out in peer-reviewed literature.
So the onus is now on you to disprove it. And cherry picking a few blogs is not going to do it. Show us that the overwhelming peer-reviewed literature points against global warming. It does not exist. A few opinions do, but there are dissenting opinions in every field of science.
You might win this back and forth personal argument with me due to better internet debate skills, but that has no bearing on the science of global warming. You can cry hoax hoax hoax for all your care, but it has no effect on the science.
Global warming is real whether you like it or not. Your's and my personal opinions will not change that.
Period.
OK. Lets talk in 50 years about it. I am pretty sure we will be around to discuss it and the internet will be much faster.
Sorry the onus is first on you to prove Global Warming is not dominated by a natural cycle and the threat of the magnitude the current increases will lead to catastrophic changes that are worth the massive costs of supposed prevention, not the other way around.
Start off with the IPCC AR4.
When you're done with that, and have understood it, then we can start.
TexanBob
11-22-2009, 05:39 PM
The flaw is obvious. Just as with scientists who believe in creationism/intelligent design, anyone who disavows the Church of Global Warming is ex-communicated, shunned and kicked out.
So it's easy to say "all the scientists agree" because anyone who disagrees is made a pariah and cast into the peer-reviewed abyss.
"All the scientists" once agreed that the earth was flat and was the center of the universe. And those who argued against them were put in prison.
But the obvious evidence is that this has been one of the coldest years in recent memories with almost no hurricane activity - the exact opposite of what "all the scientists" forecasted.
I'd rather believe my eyes and ears than all the peer-reviewed circle jerk you guys what to spew.
The point of the e-mails is that the priests of global warming are conspiring to fudge the numbers in order to fit their predetermined conclusions rather than telling people the truth. This is just one more drip in a leaky faucet revealing the fraud of the Global Warming hoaxers.
atomicbloke
11-22-2009, 06:39 PM
The flaw is obvious. Just as with scientists who believe in creationism/intelligent design, anyone who disavows the Church of Global Warming is ex-communicated, shunned and kicked out.
So it's easy to say "all the scientists agree" because anyone who disagrees is made a pariah and cast into the peer-reviewed abyss.
"All the scientists" once agreed that the earth was flat and was the center of the universe. And those who argued against them were put in prison.
But the obvious evidence is that this has been one of the coldest years in recent memories with almost no hurricane activity - the exact opposite of what "all the scientists" forecasted.
I'd rather believe my eyes and ears than all the peer-reviewed circle jerk you guys what to spew.
The point of the e-mails is that the priests of global warming are conspiring to fudge the numbers in order to fit their predetermined conclusions rather than telling people the truth. This is just one more drip in a leaky faucet revealing the fraud of the Global Warming hoaxers.
I can't make out if this post is real or a joke...
If it is real, you have got to be kidding...
NO SCIENTIST believes in creationism.... none of the creationism proponents are scientists and there is no peer-reviewed literature on creationism...
Dissenting opinions in science are allowed in every field.... so your claiming that all scientists are forced to believe in GW or evolution are the looniest thing ever....
If you thing evolution is a hoax, there is really no hope to have an intelligent discussion with you.... if you don't believe in evolution, you obviously don't believe in the millions of vaccines and anti-biotics used by people around the world, you obviously don't believe in the several different types of food we eat everyday.... you obviously don't believe in carbon-dating... I can go on and on...
And did you just say with a straight face that it was the scientists who believed that the earth was flat? Unless you equate the orthodox church to being a group of scientists, you must either be joking or inebriated...
It is ironical that you equate global warming science to flat earth when it is just the opposite...
IF you were alive during Galileo's time, no doubt you would have wanted him imprisoned too...
I sincerely hope your post was a joke....
atomicbloke
11-22-2009, 06:44 PM
The flaw is obvious. Just as with scientists who believe in creationism/intelligent design, anyone who disavows the Church of Global Warming is ex-communicated, shunned and kicked out.
So it's easy to say "all the scientists agree" because anyone who disagrees is made a pariah and cast into the peer-reviewed abyss.
"All the scientists" once agreed that the earth was flat and was the center of the universe. And those who argued against them were put in prison.
But the obvious evidence is that this has been one of the coldest years in recent memories with almost no hurricane activity - the exact opposite of what "all the scientists" forecasted.
I'd rather believe my eyes and ears than all the peer-reviewed circle jerk you guys what to spew.
The point of the e-mails is that the priests of global warming are conspiring to fudge the numbers in order to fit their predetermined conclusions rather than telling people the truth. This is just one more drip in a leaky faucet revealing the fraud of the Global Warming hoaxers.
If you believed your eyes and ears then shouldn't the earth really be flat and be the center of the universe...
What in effect you are saying is that you have no real scientific understanding of the science of global warming, and you choose to ignore the findings of overwhelming majority of the scientific community who have worked on this for decades, simply because it "doesn't" feel right....
And scientists aren't shunned for disagreeing with global warming, since every field os science allows dissenting opinions...
By your logic, every field of science would be a hoax...
Ok dude, I give up... you are obviously the stud and supremely more intelligent.... rejoice in your understanding.... my only comfort is that people like you eventually die off and go the way of the flat earthers....
I'd rather believe my eyes and ears than all the peer-reviewed circle jerk you guys what to spew.
You're blind and deaf, then.
The point of the e-mails is that the priests of global warming [...]
You don't know enough of the science to judge.
Go back to ****ing your sister.
barryr
11-23-2009, 05:51 AM
The idiot man is causing global warming continue to be shown what liars they are. Heck, North America was an ice sheet long ago, but what made all that ice melt? Cars? Factories? The earth has been doing its thing since the beginning and to think man is causing all it's changes are no brighter than the fools with their 9/11 conspiracies. Mars' cap are melting, yet it's man's fault.
The sun is giving off more heat than it ever has, yet apparently that is man's fault and has nothing to do with any changes on earth. Yeah, makes a ton of sense. The dopes continue to be duped by the "scientists" with agendas.
[...]The dopes continue to be duped by the fossil fuel industry.
(Fixed it for ya, dope.)
Arkie
11-23-2009, 10:16 AM
Whos' in favor of Obama signing the treaty at Copenhagen that will hand over US sovereignty to the UN?
http://en.cop15.dk/
DBruleU
11-23-2009, 11:14 AM
(Fixed it for ya, dope.)
So are you friends with Trenberth who's doing all the backtracking/damage control today in the Daily Camera? Or maybe you are Trenberth?
Fact is, a lot has been revealed from within the climate change community. Luckily for you most Americans are stupid enough to continue to believe the "science" you shove down our throats.
L.A. BRONCOS FAN
11-23-2009, 11:18 AM
Luckily for you most Americans are stupid enough to continue to believe the "science" you shove down our throats.
ROFL!
I'll bet you find yourself using the above expression just about every time you turn around.
Damn inconvenient science! Ha!
So are you friends with Trenberth who's doing all the backtracking/damage control today in the Daily Camera? Or maybe you are Trenberth?
Nope, neither.
Fact is, a lot has been revealed from within the climate change community. Luckily for you most Americans are stupid enough to continue to believe the "science" you shove down our throats.
There's shoving going on, fer sure - from the fossil fuel industry right up your ass.
bronco militia
11-23-2009, 12:40 PM
nice work, hippies!
bwhaha
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NaptownChief
11-24-2009, 08:58 AM
This religion is dying a very painful death...the funny part is that the ones with egg all over their faces will be the last ones to see it...but I suppose that is the way it should be cause it's not easy to see anything when you are trying to wipe egg out of your eyes. :welcome: :welcome: