PDA

View Full Version : Smith vs Law


broncosteven
11-16-2009, 07:39 PM
Does anyone else think Law was a liabilty in run support yesterday and didn't add anything in pass coverage?

I would rather play the young 1st round pick than a dude trying to get one more NFL paycheck before fading away.

Smith at least has his speed, Law knows where to line up but the point should have been made to Smith by now.

Maybe after the chugger game they will cut Law loose but I hope it is soon. It was sad watching Law try to get blocked a running play so he didn't have to make a tackle.

Also which Bronco DB was it that took Champ out on a deadskin big gain late in the game?

misturanderson
11-16-2009, 07:41 PM
That was DJ Williams.

HEAV
11-16-2009, 08:06 PM
I think it's more about the lack of beef in DL and missing Mcbean. Most of teh current starters are rotation players. Hopefully next season will have a stud D-lineman from the draft. Also a freeagent NT like Casey Hampton could be a huge plug in the middle.

loborugger
11-16-2009, 08:10 PM
I think it's more about the lack of beef in DL and missing Mcbean. Most of teh current starters are rotation players. Hopefully next season will have a stud D-lineman from the draft. Also a freeagent NT like Casey Hampton could be a huge plug in the middle.

Do you think the Steelers let him walk? That could be an interesting signing.

Dudeskey
11-16-2009, 08:15 PM
Seems like any time we've been in nickel the D's struggled against the run

ward63
11-16-2009, 08:16 PM
I never liked the signing from the beginning! He looks lost and that Champ and Brian have to treat him like middle school player and put him where he's suppose to be

cmhargrove
11-16-2009, 08:17 PM
Smith screwed the pooch on the fake kick.

He's playing the 'deep safety" and doesn't recognize the FB streaking wide open down the field. Marcus Thomas drops 40 yards into coverage....

Sheesh...

Anyone think we will be shopping for a new ST coach this offseason?

HEAV
11-16-2009, 08:20 PM
Do you think the Steelers let him walk? That could be an interesting signing.

Rumor is they will let him walk in 2010. He's 32 and they won't put that much $$$ in a 32 veteran with weight/condition issues. Steelers brass will just use Hoke and draft a NT to rotate to fill the Spot.

GeniusatWork
11-16-2009, 08:26 PM
This 2009 draft didn't have much impact other than Moreno

ward63
11-16-2009, 08:33 PM
Rumor is they will let him walk in 2010. He's 32 and they won't put that much $$$ in a 32 veteran with weight/condition issues. Steelers brass will just use Hoke and draft a NT to rotate to fill the Spot.

Plus I think Ziggy could put on some weight and go inside to NT

tsiguy96
11-16-2009, 08:41 PM
This 2009 draft didn't have much impact other than Moreno

i dont think patriot players do often. ayers appears to be coming around a little bit with pressures, moreno looks good and is getting better every game, smith im unsure about, quinn is questionable too, and mcbath and bruton are learning behind our secondary and backups. its really too early to tell since a lot of them are 2nd stringers at this point.

Killericon
11-16-2009, 08:42 PM
This 2009 draft didn't have much impact other than Moreno

...Yet.

GeniusatWork
11-16-2009, 08:57 PM
...Yet.

The staff is very cautious about who they play. Very cautious.

I spose they should be after starting 6-0, you don't try to fix what aint' broke.

Now at 6-3 maybe they bring in McKinley. McKinley should be returning kicks. He's one of the impressive picks. I can't think of another, but again this is a cautious staff, they don't like to play rookies until they have to. The rookies might be good, but they automatically play a vet over a rook.

baja
11-16-2009, 09:13 PM
This 2009 draft didn't have much impact other than Moreno

Ayers is starting to have an impact

DBroncos4life
11-16-2009, 09:21 PM
i dont think patriot players do often. ayers appears to be coming around a little bit with pressures, moreno looks good and is getting better every game, smith im unsure about, quinn is questionable too, and mcbath and bruton are learning behind our secondary and backups. its really too early to tell since a lot of them are 2nd stringers at this point.

The Pats are getting more out of there "nickle back" that they drafted in the second round then we are. They drafted Pat Chung SS and he has been playing quite a bit also. Sean Smith for Buffalo has as many PD's as Champ Bailey. Then there is Buffalo's Jairus Byrd who leads the NFL in INT's. The Jags got Derek Cox in the third round and he is 4th in the team in tackles and has 2 INTs along with 6 PD's.

As of now we are not getting the value out of Smith, and there was a good chunk of this board that claimed he would replace Goodman after week 6 starting next to Champ. The fact of the matter is his play has been so non existent that we had to pick up Law.

Quinn was a waste of a pick. McBath, has made no impact. Thats 3 second round picks that have really not effected anything.
I think we are looking at Moreno and Ayers as the only players in this draft that will impact the future of the team. Which I guess is fine given the short offseason our staff had to put together a draft.

GeniusatWork
11-16-2009, 09:47 PM
Ayers is starting to have an impact

Heck, I'm just casting around. It's frustraing to be on a three game losing streak.

Br0nc0Buster
11-16-2009, 09:58 PM
The Pats are getting more out of there "nickle back" that they drafted in the second round then we are. They drafted Pat Chung SS and he has been playing quite a bit also. Sean Smith for Buffalo has as many PD's as Champ Bailey. Then there is Buffalo's Jairus Byrd who leads the NFL in INT's. The Jags got Derek Cox in the third round and he is 4th in the team in tackles and has 2 INTs along with 6 PD's.

As of now we are not getting the value out of Smith, and there was a good chunk of this board that claimed he would replace Goodman after week 6 starting next to Champ. The fact of the matter is his play has been so non existent that we had to pick up Law.

Quinn was a waste of a pick. McBath, has made no impact. Thats 3 second round picks that have really not effected anything.
I think we are looking at Moreno and Ayers as the only players in this draft that will impact the future of the team. Which I guess is fine given the short offseason our staff had to put together a draft.

that just isnt true
He is doing well on special teams, but he wasnt drafted to be a starter this year, so its unfair to indict him for not surpassing Brian Dawkins or Renaldo Hill

tsiguy96
11-16-2009, 09:59 PM
The Pats are getting more out of there "nickle back" that they drafted in the second round then we are. They drafted Pat Chung SS and he has been playing quite a bit also. Sean Smith for Buffalo has as many PD's as Champ Bailey. Then there is Buffalo's Jairus Byrd who leads the NFL in INT's. The Jags got Derek Cox in the third round and he is 4th in the team in tackles and has 2 INTs along with 6 PD's.

As of now we are not getting the value out of Smith, and there was a good chunk of this board that claimed he would replace Goodman after week 6 starting next to Champ. The fact of the matter is his play has been so non existent that we had to pick up Law.

Quinn was a waste of a pick. McBath, has made no impact. Thats 3 second round picks that have really not effected anything.
I think we are looking at Moreno and Ayers as the only players in this draft that will impact the future of the team. Which I guess is fine given the short offseason our staff had to put together a draft.

you realize mcbath hasnt made an impact because hes playing behind brian dawkins right (or is it hill? regardless, hes not better than them in his first year). mckinnley is fine and showed a ton of promise, brandstater is a project, quinn i have no idea about, but no one does. smith got injured several weeks ago, whos to say it wasnt worse than we thought?

theres too many vets on this team to just expect the rookies to go unseat them in their first year.

DBroncos4life
11-16-2009, 10:08 PM
that just isnt true
He is doing well on special teams, but he wasnt drafted to be a starter this year, so its unfair to indict him for not surpassing Brian Dawkins or Renaldo Hill

Unfair or not its valid, and how well can he be doing on SP teams when we suck at SP teams? My point was TSI said that the Pats don't get production out of their rookies, which isn't true because they have a back up SS they drafted in the second round that still has found away to make it on the football field and a rookie CB that is playing the nickle position.

And TSI I'm not saying McBath won't end up being good, I have higher hopes for him then I do Smith or Quinn because of the players a head of him. My thinking is we had a smaller list of players going into the draft, whatever the reason is we did that and I think we might have missed a few players because of it. The problem is Smith was drafted to be the "nickle back" and for whatever reason injuries or whatever he is struggling while other teams that drafted CB's in the second round are playing better without costing a first rounder to get them.

DBroncos4life
11-16-2009, 10:19 PM
Really what has Kenny McKinley done to even make you say a ton of potential?

GeniusatWork
11-16-2009, 10:40 PM
Really what has Kenny McKinley done to even make you say a ton of potential?

I like his speed and hands. He's shown the potential to be potent. :wiggle:

tsiguy96
11-16-2009, 10:47 PM
Unfair or not its valid, and how well can he be doing on SP teams when we suck at SP teams? My point was TSI said that the Pats don't get production out of their rookies, which isn't true because they have a back up SS they drafted in the second round that still has found away to make it on the football field and a rookie CB that is playing the nickle position.

And TSI I'm not saying McBath won't end up being good, I have higher hopes for him then I do Smith or Quinn because of the players a head of him. My thinking is we had a smaller list of players going into the draft, whatever the reason is we did that and I think we might have missed a few players because of it. The problem is Smith was drafted to be the "nickle back" and for whatever reason injuries or whatever he is struggling while other teams that drafted CB's in the second round are playing better without costing a first rounder to get them.

smith got injured early and hasnt hit the field since, i think the correlation is there. i remember all the praise he got for his run support as well as playing earlier in the season, no reason to think hes gonna be a bust yet. he was drafted to be a future #1/#2, but considering we have two very good corners there already, no need to rush him in and bench the vets.

Popps
11-16-2009, 11:32 PM
I'd also like to see Smith getting time, but he's got to be healthy enough... and if he's still learning, we need to get him up to speed.

The things people should be taking away from yesterday's game regarding our defense are...

1. DJ Williams hurts this team on a regular basis.

2. We're not a deep/big enough defense to be on the field the entire game.

3. McBean is actually more important than we might have thought.t

4. 63 year old Brian Dawkins is still our defensive MVP out there, despite Doom's sack totals.

Taco John
11-16-2009, 11:36 PM
5. We need a Nose Tackle.

tsiguy96
11-16-2009, 11:55 PM
5. We need a Nose Tackle.

6. no one will talk me out of wanting to see tom brandstater on the field, though it wont happen.


remember reading PFT awhile ago i think it was, and they said that on many teams the 2nd or 3rd QB is sometimes the most popular QB of the fans. true if you think about it.

Popps
11-16-2009, 11:56 PM
5. We need a Nose Tackle.

Maybe, but Fields is far less a problem than Williams. (For example)

I think we also learned that every time Marcus Thomas is in the lineup, bad things seem to happen. I love the guy's potential, but he's been at this long enough where he should be productive, and he just never seems to be.

Popps
11-16-2009, 11:58 PM
ago i think it was, and they said that on many teams the 2nd or 3rd QB is sometimes the most popular QB of the fans. true if you think about it.

I mentioned that yesterday as a preface for my Brandstater argument. It's probably true... but I like Orton best of all of them. I'm just saying that Simms looked like a train-wreck. If Orton WAS going to be out a few games, it might have been time to see what we have in Brandstater.

I hope Kyle is O.K..

DBroncos4life
11-17-2009, 12:02 AM
I like his speed and hands. He's shown the potential to be potent. :wiggle:

Speed and hands? Does he even have a regular season catch?

BroncoBuff
11-17-2009, 12:08 AM
Ayers is starting to have an impact

Damn right ... he's playing on crucial downs, and definitely contributing.

Taco John
11-17-2009, 12:17 AM
Maybe, but Fields is far less a problem than Williams. (For example)


I guess if you only want to look at the bad side of Williams game. DJ Williams is our leading tackler and has forced two fumbles. He currently ranks in the top ten in the NFL in tackles. The way you talk about him, you'd think the guy just can't do anything right. He must be doing something right.

Wesley Woodyard, on the other hand - the guy that was supposed to make us forget about DJ Williams, isn't faring so well in this new system. '

I can't disagree with you that DJ looks lost out there sometimes. But he's learning a new system and for his first year in it, he's actually very productive. Of course, tackles aren't everything, but for a linebacker, it's a pretty damn important stat.

I think the best way to help DJ and our linebacking unit as a whole is to give them some nose tackle protection up front who can slow down runners and give the linebackers more time to attack instead of being caught on their heels - which is what we seem to be seeing more of as the season progresses: linebackers caught off step.

PRBronco
11-17-2009, 12:26 AM
that just isnt true
He is doing well on special teams, but he wasnt drafted to be a starter this year, so its unfair to indict him for not surpassing Brian Dawkins or Renaldo Hill

Truth, in fact he leads the team in ST tackles.

watermock
11-17-2009, 12:33 AM
This 2009 draft didn't have much impact other than Moreno

Shh! Go root for your Bears! BTW, Moreno was OUR pick.

Ayers might pan out. Smigth was a reach and the rest were basically offensive players that haved seen the field.

Rmember we had 4 firsts in 09 and 10, and 2 3rds in 09 going in as I remember.

The scound day was very disappointing. 6 of 9 picks on offense.

watermock
11-17-2009, 12:36 AM
WW and Larsen are from the 08 FA class. Not to mention Clady and Royal.

Popps
11-17-2009, 12:58 AM
I can't disagree with you that DJ looks lost out there sometimes. But he's learning a new system and for his first year in it, he's actually very productive. Of course, tackles aren't everything, but for a linebacker, it's a pretty damn important stat..

I've been hearing that he's learning since he came in the league.

Taco, he's not going to learn to have instincts. It's never, ever going to happen.

I agree, his tackle-stats are nice. When he's in the open field with a ball-carrier, there's no one else I'd rather have chasing them down.

But, you watch the Ravens and Ray Lewis tonight, and you see a guy on a totally different planet, skills-wise.

DJ is a fine athlete. He's a chaser, a runner and generally tackles soundly. His athletic skills pay off in big tackle numbers.

But, when he guesses wrong (and that's what he does)... he's WAY out of plays, Taco. He just runs towards the LOS and sort of hopes to be in on the play.

How many tackles behind the LOS has the guy made? How many big hits where you thought to yourself... THAT is a true ILB?

As I said, he's not our biggest problem... but at the moment he's lapsing, which is often.. it's a BIG problem.

It's the pitcher that strikes out guys for 4 innings with 100 mph heaters, and then gives up 3 runs in two consecutive innings. He leads your team in strike-outs, but you can't trust him.

How valuable is that?

Conversely, you've got Andra Davis... largely considered an average player regularly IN position, and rarely seeming to give up big plays or getting swallowed up by blockers. Williams has absolutely NO ability to fend off blockers.

We need a Ray Lewis, or even just an Al Wilson, man. We need a hammer in the middle with natural football instincts, not a chaser.


I'm telling you, the guy is a source of problems. I've got NO REASON to have ANY problem with him. He's a Bronco. I'm inclined to love Broncos. But, after years of watching this guy closely, I'm telling you... it's a couple of big open field tackles, and then massive mental lapses that lead to back-breaking runs and conversions.

You Tivo games, man?

Just take the challenge and fast forward through and watch this dude on a regular basis. I'm not saying he's not an adequate starter when you don't have someone else... but I'm saying he's a regular source of problems, and it's difficult to see if you're not looking closely.

watermock
11-17-2009, 01:03 AM
O' Popps was the one crying for a front 7 draft, Hillis to be used more and for the team to improve every week.

DBroncos4life
11-17-2009, 01:11 AM
I could be wrong but wasn't DJ Williams on the field during the 6-0 run and apart of the same D giving up a handful of points? I'm to believe now he is the problem on D? Hmmmm I wonder what took him so long to start failing?

watermock
11-17-2009, 01:20 AM
ell. I certainly didn't chime for probowl honors, but still, he's signed and good LB's were out there, we could of got a LB and a DT
easy. I love Shane Rodgers, Andre Davis, others. Shanahan picked poorly. e's gone.

We spent alot of draft picks on 100 player index cards, and it shows.

It's also his 5th position change and 4th DC.

Popps
11-17-2009, 01:50 AM
I could be wrong but wasn't DJ Williams on the field during the 6-0 run and apart of the same D giving up a handful of points? I'm to believe now he is the problem on D? Hmmmm I wonder what took him so long to start failing?

Again, if you want to make big, sweeping generalizations... you're not going to see what's going on.

DJ did not start "failing." DJ has ALWAYS been an inconsistent player. This has nothing to do with the team's record, or necessarily how we played last week.. though the last two games were particularly bad for him.

I'm going to write this in bold letters so perhaps you won't miss it this time.... ready?

DJ is not THE problem on defense.

Let me know if I need to type that a few more times so it sinks in.

DJ is not an elite linebacker, and he's a liability when he has mental lapses, which is somewhat regularly.

You can recognize him for what he is, or you can pretend that he's a "Pro Bowl" player.

Ray Lewis is a middle linebacker. DJ Williams is a nice runner and a good tackler. He's got ZERO middle linebacker instincts. He's not THE problem, but he contributes to problems.

But, in order to see it, you'll have to watch him... watch the games, drop any bias and simply look at what he's doing on a play-by-play basis. Not stats, not reputation, not message board popularity... just look at what he's doing on the field and ask yourself if he's an elite player.

Popps
11-17-2009, 01:52 AM
O' Popps was the one crying for a front 7 draft, Hillis to be used more and for the team to improve every week.

I know, and it was great... because 3 of our first 4 players drafted were defenders, including a 1st rounder for our front 7... and new or moved starters at every single position.

So, correct... I called for change in the front 7 and we did just that.

DBroncos4life
11-17-2009, 02:25 AM
Ray Lewis happens to be a once in a while type of player. Guys like him don't land on a team often. DJ was never drafted to be Ray Lewis, we already had our Ray Lewis type leader in the middle in Al, DJ was brought in because he made tackles and could move side line to side line like very few LBs in the NFL at the time. Still many posters rag on DJ because of the type of tackles he gets. There are ten other guys out there chasing the dude with the little brown ball and more often then not DJ is one of the first persons to get to the ball carrier. DJ might not be elite, but he is way above average and if he would have had Al with him and not been moved to SLB he would have had a much better looking career then what he has had now. Regardless, he moves around does his job well for the most part and doesn't cause any problems on or off the field. LOL man you want Ray Lewis, well every team and every fan wants Ray Lewis type players on their teams god just doesn't make super freaks fast enough, but hey we could do FAR worse then having DJ Williams on the field.

gtown
11-17-2009, 07:15 AM
remember reading PFT awhile ago i think it was, and they said that on many teams the 2nd or 3rd QB is sometimes the most popular QB of the fans. true if you think about it.

That's because some fans think they know better than the coach, who is paid to professionally coach football. How many Tom Brady-like stories have their been over the years? Very few. Most of the time the 2nd and 3rd stringer gets a chance because of an injury or some other circumstance and they promptly **** the bed. Simms case in point.

oubronco
11-17-2009, 07:26 AM
I guess if you only want to look at the bad side of Williams game. DJ Williams is our leading tackler and has forced two fumbles. He currently ranks in the top ten in the NFL in tackles. The way you talk about him, you'd think the guy just can't do anything right. He must be doing something right.

Wesley Woodyard, on the other hand - the guy that was supposed to make us forget about DJ Williams, isn't faring so well in this new system. '

I can't disagree with you that DJ looks lost out there sometimes. But he's learning a new system and for his first year in it, he's actually very productive. Of course, tackles aren't everything, but for a linebacker, it's a pretty damn important stat.

I think the best way to help DJ and our linebacking unit as a whole is to give them some nose tackle protection up front who can slow down runners and give the linebackers more time to attack instead of being caught on their heels - which is what we seem to be seeing more of as the season progresses: linebackers caught off step.

What I think would help the most is if Nolan would quit vacating the middle of the field and leave the MLB in there the defense is getting gashed up the middle and when I seen Wash TE running wide open down the middle before the fake FG I was yelling "Where's the fuggin LB?"

tsiguy96
11-17-2009, 07:29 AM
That's because some fans think they know better than the coach, who is paid to professionally coach football. How many Tom Brady-like stories have their been over the years? Very few. Most of the time the 2nd and 3rd stringer gets a chance because of an injury or some other circumstance and they promptly **** the bed. Simms case in point.

i totally agree that simms sucked big time, and theres a reason hes been on so many NFL teams. i liked what i saw of brandstater in preseason and curious fi he could replicate it on a live game.

missingnumber7
11-17-2009, 07:42 AM
Popps are you really calling out the guy that has been moved around more in his professional career than most army families? The guy that was drafted to play weak side but because Gold was brought back was moved to strong side even though he was to small and then moved to Mike and now is playing in a 3-4 for the first time in his career which for a LB is a major change. I played LB in college started at Sam as a freshman and moved to Will as a sophomore. It is a big change. Then we changed to a 3-4 look my junior year...really tough. The mass presnap confusion we are seeing is a direct relation to why we have gotten beat the last three weeks. The guys understand the game plan, the front 3 and Elvis understand how to do what they are doing, its the back 7 that are struggling with Force/Fill and Gap responsibilities. Well except for the human Wrecking/Guessingball that is Dawkins.

gtown
11-17-2009, 08:26 AM
i totally agree that simms sucked big time, and theres a reason hes been on so many NFL teams. i liked what i saw of brandstater in preseason and curious fi he could replicate it on a live game.

If McD was that confident in Brandstater, he would be No. 2 right now. Brandstater looks good against a bunch of guys that didn't even make their team. He holds the ball too long and is pretty inaccurate despite the big arm. Some of his completions during the preseason would have easily be picked or defended against first teamers.

I would rather he hold the clipboard for another year and come in as No. 2 next year, which I believe is the team's plan, especially considering that Simms has not only sucked for us, but for numerous NFL teams.

broncosteven
11-17-2009, 01:39 PM
i totally agree that simms sucked big time, and theres a reason hes been on so many NFL teams. i liked what i saw of brandstater in preseason and curious fi he could replicate it on a live game.

At this point I would almost rather have Tom B playing over Simms.

If Orton is hosed and we lose to SD I would prefer to see Tom B the rest of the way as we rebuild.