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View Full Version : Why do people focus on Orton when our running game is so weak?


Taco John
11-09-2009, 08:58 PM
I don't understand why there is all this focus on Orton when our running game is so pathetic. We put 27 yards up against the Steelers - we needed at least 70. The running game looked so bad tonight that McDaniels absolutely gave up on them.

It's true, Orton didn't look all world out there. He's a Griese clone, and he's only going to be as good as the weakest link on our team. He can't throw on the run for crap, and his deep ball comes with a pot of gold at the end of it. But still: HE'S GETTING ZERO RUNNING SUPPORT.

Why is it so taboo to criticize the running game?

frerottenextelway
11-09-2009, 09:00 PM
Not many teams can run on Pitt. If they do, it's usually because they opened it up by passing and are running late in the game. We certainly weren't going to be able to run on them.

SoDak Bronco
11-09-2009, 09:00 PM
Both are bad...Orton is avg, can't create outside the pocket and throw accurately, and the running game isn't anywhere to be found. A lot of this is due to the safeties and linebackers not worried about Orton going over the top...So when people complain about orton, it has to do with the play calling and his ability to keep the defense honest.

Atwater His Ass
11-09-2009, 09:01 PM
It's not taboo. C'mon Taco.

We haven't been able to stretch a defense or run the ball effectively pretty much all season.

Moreno, Buckhalter and the OL have the ability to do so. The difference lies in the fact that Orton is not and will never be a game changing QB.

I think that was very evident with how Big Ben was able to rally his team, espcially after that drive they put together after the fumble return.

The reason people focus on Orton is because he just flat out doesn't have the talent to lead this team. The RB's and OL on this team have the ability, but I think it's more of Ortons faults by not being able to stretch the D deep that hurts the running game and not the other way around.

kamakazi_kal
11-09-2009, 09:02 PM
I think it's a lack of any threat of a pass going over 7 yds allowing the D to sit on routs bump at the line and defend a 3 step dump off.

If you can't keep the safites out of the box you will not be good at running the ball.

Also as stated in another thread. You are now power running with a line built for zone blocking.

tsiguy96
11-09-2009, 09:02 PM
he gave up because it wasnt working on them, at all. yea it sucks we had to put the game in ortons hands to have a shot at winning, but our oline is (supposedly) built for pass protection, with hamilton, weigmann and polumbus sucking, it doesnt matter either way. theres a LOT of flaws on this offense.

bloodsunday
11-09-2009, 09:03 PM
I don't understand why there is all this focus on Orton when our running game is so pathetic. We put 27 yards up against the Steelers - we needed at least 70. The running game looked so bad tonight that McDaniels absolutely gave up on them.

It's true, Orton didn't look all world out there. He's a Griese clone, and he's only going to be as good as the weakest link on our team. He can't throw on the run for crap, and his deep ball comes with a pot of gold at the end of it. But still: HE'S GETTING ZERO RUNNING SUPPORT.

Why is it so taboo to criticize the running game?

Great thread.

And even more pathetic, we didn't even really seem to try. I'm a little disappointed in the early returns on Moreno. He needs to be more decisive and hold onto the ball.

atomicbloke
11-09-2009, 09:04 PM
I don't understand why there is all this focus on Orton when our running game is so pathetic. We put 27 yards up against the Steelers - we needed at least 70. The running game looked so bad tonight that McDaniels absolutely gave up on them.

It's true, Orton didn't look all world out there. He's a Griese clone, and he's only going to be as good as the weakest link on our team. He can't throw on the run for crap, and his deep ball comes with a pot of gold at the end of it. But still: HE'S GETTING ZERO RUNNING SUPPORT.

Why is it so taboo to criticize the running game?

Is it taboo to call Moreno a bust yet?

Has he shown ANYTHING at all so far? ANYTHING to suggest he can be viable RB in the future? RBs take the least time to transition to the pros.... no use denying the obvious.... we wasted our high 1st...

SonOfLe-loLang
11-09-2009, 09:04 PM
I dont think its taboo, i think its just natural for the public to criticize the QB. Its just one of those things we accept as normal, but really is kinda stupid.

Atwater His Ass
11-09-2009, 09:05 PM
Great thread.

And even more pathetic, we didn't even really seem to try. I'm a little disappointed in the early returns on Moreno. He needs to be more decisive and hold onto the ball.

I think Moreno will be fine. He obvisously has the ability but hasn't adjusted to the speed of the pro game yet.

Not everyone can be TD right out of the gate.

Biggest issue moving forward on this team is the play of the QB. It's not good enough and is holding this team back.

rugbythug
11-09-2009, 09:06 PM
Orton Gets Nervous. If you make him move he plays absolutely terrible. The Run Game sucks the interior is terrible. Haynesworth is going to use hamilton to clean the orton out of the grass sunday.

Taco John
11-09-2009, 09:06 PM
It's not taboo. C'mon Taco.

Man, I get nothing but crap every time I mention it. Moreno is not a third down back. He's just not.

Maybe he will be someday, but right now, he's just not. He reminds me of Stephen Alexander. He looks like a lazy runner who doesn't have that "fall forward" instinct that picks up extra yards after contact.

He could end up with an impressive career, but right now, he's not giving us what we need.

Rohirrim
11-09-2009, 09:07 PM
I don't know what the "taboo" comment refers to. Right now, this is a hybrid team - neither fish nor fowl. When we play the top, physical defenses, the flaws come out. This first season is a gimme. Let's make the best of it and hopefully make the playoffs. Patience.

Gort
11-09-2009, 09:08 PM
moreno. 5 carries for 3 yards. that's 5 wasted plays right there. and we only had 54 plays tonight on offense. rookie needs to ride the bench for awhile. he's not good.

bpc
11-09-2009, 09:08 PM
Both are at fault. Ultimately we're gonna find that we have issues that need to be fixed at both positions. I know some of you won't agree with me, and I hope I'm wrong but Knowshon Moreno is not the solution to our running game. He may be a capable component but he won't be a guy that dominates games for us. He just doesn't have it. He's neither a speed nor a power back. Until he decides what he wants to be, he'll be a average back in the NFL. Personally, he needs to hit the gym, get stronger and turn into a solid 4 ypc back who can catch out of the backfield. He needs to do some squats and start hitting the hole with authority. Right now he looks like a power back who's all finesse.

Buckhalter is a nice story, hard worker, but he's had 2 or 3 ACL surgeries and he doesn't show power hitting the hole either.

I'm sure there are some issues with the OL, Hamilton in particular but we need more playmakers with the ball in their hand. Who gets the ball the most? QB's and HB's and we're average at best at those two positions.

Taco John
11-09-2009, 09:09 PM
Is it taboo to call Moreno a bust yet?

Has he shown ANYTHING at all so far? ANYTHING to suggest he can be viable RB in the future? RBs take the least time to transition to the pros.... no use denying the obvious.... we wasted our high 1st...


Someone said that he's leading the rookies in rushing so far this season. I haven't been able to confirm that yet, but if that's the case, I think it says more about how poor the rookie rushing class is than how great Moreno is.

I want to believe in the guy, but I get a pit in my stomach every time I see him in there on third down.

Rohirrim
11-09-2009, 09:10 PM
I just want to throw out there that we did play the #1 rushing defense in the league tonight.

cabronco
11-09-2009, 09:10 PM
I don't understand why there is all this focus on Orton when our running game is so pathetic. We put 27 yards up against the Steelers - we needed at least 70. The running game looked so bad tonight that McDaniels absolutely gave up on them.

It's true, Orton didn't look all world out there. He's a Griese clone, and he's only going to be as good as the weakest link on our team. He can't throw on the run for crap, and his deep ball comes with a pot of gold at the end of it. But still: HE'S GETTING ZERO RUNNING SUPPORT.

Why is it so taboo to criticize the running game?

I've been saying this all season long. The running game is far from where it needs to be. I've been a Bronco fan for too long not to realize how important the run game is. Heck , right now we cant even pick up a 1st down on 3rd and 1. We're like 0 for 15 right now. I sure miss the ZBS and gaining positive yards and break aways.

strafen
11-09-2009, 09:10 PM
I don't understand why there is all this focus on Orton when our running game is so pathetic. We put 27 yards up against the Steelers - we needed at least 70. The running game looked so bad tonight that McDaniels absolutely gave up on them.

It's true, Orton didn't look all world out there. He's a Griese clone, and he's only going to be as good as the weakest link on our team. He can't throw on the run for crap, and his deep ball comes with a pot of gold at the end of it. But still: HE'S GETTING ZERO RUNNING SUPPORT.

Why is it so taboo to criticize the running game?When they bring 8 in the box to stop Orton's dink and dunk and 4-yard passes, guess what?
They're also stopping the run.
The line is crowded to stop Orton's BS, and by doing so, they're also right there to stop the run.
Is a no-win situation for us.
When we show we can throw the ball deep, the line won't be as crowded and thus, we will be able to run the ball, until then, they're going to play us tight.
They're daring us to beat them with the dink and dunk, they're going to be covering 20 yards zone around the line, and they will kill our running game and passing game in one shot...

broncocalijohn
11-09-2009, 09:10 PM
we should also discuss the poor blocking our running backs have done.

bloodsunday
11-09-2009, 09:10 PM
Is it taboo to call Moreno a bust yet?

Has he shown ANYTHING at all so far? ANYTHING to suggest he can be viable RB in the future? RBs take the least time to transition to the pros.... no use denying the obvious.... we wasted our high 1st...

I think this is over the top. Sure we hoped for more at this point, but he'll get it figured out.

bpc
11-09-2009, 09:11 PM
Man, I get nothing but crap every time I mention it. Moreno is not a third down back. He's just not.

Maybe he will be someday, but right now, he's just not. He reminds me of Stephen Alexander. He looks like a lazy runner who doesn't have that "fall forward" instinct that picks up extra yards after contact.

He could end up with an impressive career, but right now, he's not giving us what we need.

There is a big difference between Shaun Alexander and Knowshon Moreno. Alexander had a swagger within a short yardage situation. Knowshon thinks he's still running in college. He needs to change his approach RUNNING the football. It won't work at this level.

rastaman
11-09-2009, 09:11 PM
Is it taboo to call Moreno a bust yet?

Has he shown ANYTHING at all so far? ANYTHING to suggest he can be viable RB in the future? RBs take the least time to transition to the pros.... no use denying the obvious.... we wasted our high 1st...

Moreno is far from a bust. I just think Moreno would be much more effective running from the I-formation and having a lead FB in front of him. His running style is perfect for the zone blocking scheme with a lead FB taking out the first tackler.

Also, Orton is over thinking out there. He needs to go thru his progressions/reads and just make the dam throw. His WR's are open, Kyle just isn't pullling the trigger.

I'm telling everyone who will listen......the defense is getting warned down b/c the Offense can't move the ball and sustain drives to give the Defense a rest! It worked out okay the first 5 or 6 games. However, we can see the wheels are about to come off the defense.

mwill07
11-09-2009, 09:11 PM
I think it's a lack of any threat of a pass going over 7 yds allowing the D to sit on routs bump at the line and defend a 3 step dump off.

If you can't keep the safites out of the box you will not be good at running the ball.

Also as stated in another thread. You are now power running with a line built for zone blocking.

I was told we can't throw deep because we have no running game, allowing the safeties to sit deep and causing Orton to check down.

Are the safeties in the box or not? I'm leaning towards no.

Abqbronco
11-09-2009, 09:12 PM
Man, I get nothing but crap every time I mention it. Moreno is not a third down back. He's just not.

Maybe he will be someday, but right now, he's just not. He reminds me of Stephen Alexander. He looks like a lazy runner who doesn't have that "fall forward" instinct that picks up extra yards after contact.

He could end up with an impressive career, but right now, he's not giving us what we need.

He reminds me of Mike Bell when Mike played for Denver. I like him and see potential but he runs without patience. He slams into the back of his blockers and, as Gruden pointed out, doesn't block the blitzer well. That chop block attempt was pathetic.

jbiel
11-09-2009, 09:12 PM
It's not taboo. C'mon Taco.

We haven't been able to stretch a defense or run the ball effectively pretty much all season.

Moreno, Buckhalter and the OL have the ability to do so. The difference lies in the fact that Orton is not and will never be a game changing QB.

I think that was very evident with how Big Ben was able to rally his team, espcially after that drive they put together after the fumble return.

The reason people focus on Orton is because he just flat out doesn't have the talent to lead this team. The RB's and OL on this team have the ability, but I think it's more of Ortons faults by not being able to stretch the D deep that hurts the running game and not the other way around.

run the ball all season? know your football, i bet after week 6 we were in the top 10 in rushing. its not ortons fault, our oline has went to ****. quit saying how we could break a big pass play, it would open up the run game. how about if we could break a run, it would open up the pass. all we have right now is the pass, and we still move the ball. eventually when teams know we cant run it they play the pass. its not rocket science. see our 3rd and ones all year long, our running game sucks, and its because our oline cant push the pile. its turned into having to pass on 3rd and one.

Gort
11-09-2009, 09:12 PM
You are now power running with a line built for zone blocking.

McD should have made the transition over 2-3 years instead of overnight. the offensive personnel on this team are mostly tailored to Shanny's offensive ideas. McD has installed the NE offense. these are mostly the wrong players for that system. this is probably why McD has a tight leash on Orton. it's not just that he doesn't trust Orton. he probably doesn't trust most of the offense with the full NE playbook yet.

Rohirrim
11-09-2009, 09:14 PM
McD should have made the transition over 2-3 years instead of overnight. the offensive personnel on this team are mostly tailored to Shanny's offensive ideas. McD has installed the NE offense. these are mostly the wrong players for that system. this is probably why McD has a tight leash on Orton. it's not just that he doesn't trust Orton. he probably doesn't trust most of the offense with the full NE playbook yet.

I'm guessing Shanahan didn't leave his playbooks behind. So, I'm guessing McD had to rely on what he's got.

watermock
11-09-2009, 09:15 PM
Is it taboo to call Moreno a bust yet?

Has he shown ANYTHING at all so far? ANYTHING to suggest he can be viable RB in the future? RBs take the least time to transition to the pros.... no use denying the obvious.... we wasted our high 1st...

He's a good all around back, but so was Sammy Winder, that's who he reminds me of.

bpc
11-09-2009, 09:15 PM
He reminds me of Mike Bell when Mike played for Denver. I like him and see potential but he runs without patience. He slams into the back of his blockers and, as Gruden pointed out, doesn't block the blitzer well. That chop block attempt was pathetic.

Mike had way more football awareness vs. Knowshon. Mike could read blocks and had a 2nd gear. I haven't seen anything from Knowshon showing me he's more than a 200 lb finesse HB with 4.6 speed. Nothing.

I hope he proves me wrong but I don't think he's the solution in the backfield. I think we're gonna have to find a co-starter to pair with him outside of Buckhalter.

kamakazi_kal
11-09-2009, 09:15 PM
run the ball all season? know your football, i bet after week 6 we were in the top 10 in rushing. its not ortons fault, our oline has went to ****. quit saying how we could break a big pass play, it would open up the run game. how about if we could break a run, it would open up the pass. all we have right now is the pass, and we still move the ball. eventually when teams know we cant run it they play the pass. its not rocket science. see our 3rd and ones all year long, our running game sucks, and its because our oline cant push the pile. its turned into having to pass on 3rd and one.

Rocke Science? we pass all the freaking time ....... really short passes, yes .... but, passes still.

Atwater His Ass
11-09-2009, 09:15 PM
Man, I get nothing but crap every time I mention it. Moreno is not a third down back. He's just not.

Maybe he will be someday, but right now, he's just not. He reminds me of Stephen Alexander. He looks like a lazy runner who doesn't have that "fall forward" instinct that picks up extra yards after contact.

He could end up with an impressive career, but right now, he's not giving us what we need.

Spending a few years in Seattle, I never thought of this comparison. But thinking aobut it, it seems fair, at least to this point.

But let's not forget the MVP season Alexander put together for Seattle.

I still think Moreno has the talent, but much like qb's with the Elway comparison in Denver, there is a TD comparision for RB's to perform NOW.

I didn't like the Moreno pick and I'm on record for that. But I do think he can be a quality NFL RB. But if Orton can only throw 1-10 yards down the field, how can that possibly open up any running lanes against a defense that doesn't have to defend against the break out play?

kamakazi_kal
11-09-2009, 09:17 PM
Mike had way more football awareness vs. Knowshon. Mike could read blocks and had a 2nd gear. I haven't seen anything from Knowshon showing me he's more than a 200 lb finesse HB with 4.6 speed. Nothing.

I hope he proves me wrong but I don't think he's the solution in the backfield. I think we're gonna have to find a co-starter to pair with him outside of Buckhalter.

What the hell happend to Hillis ..... you want to power run use a power back.

Rohirrim
11-09-2009, 09:18 PM
I don't remember the Oline opening up a single hole on Pittsburgh tonight. There was nowhere to go. World champion Ds are like that sometimes.

strafen
11-09-2009, 09:18 PM
It's also amazing how people has forgotten and bashed Peyton Hillis.Hillis is far better than any of the RB we have right now, yet people are criticizing him for fumbling on ST?
Give me a freaking break. Moreno has put the ball down more than Hillis, but that's not the real point, the point is, Moreno has had very little contribution so far.
He has not been the impact player Hillis is.
Get Hillis in there, and he will make things happen!

jbiel
11-09-2009, 09:19 PM
Rocke Science? we pass all the freaking time ....... really short passes, yes .... but, passes still.

would you rather pass for 3 yds or run for 0. for this game, our running plays were a wast of downs. maybe you didnt see that.

not to mention when most teams pass all the time, it makes the defense play the pass. so the steelers d played the pass, and we still couldnt run? nice call....

ColoradoDarin
11-09-2009, 09:20 PM
1 yard rushing in the 2nd half. ONE.

Atwater His Ass
11-09-2009, 09:20 PM
run the ball all season? know your football, i bet after week 6 we were in the top 10 in rushing. its not ortons fault, our oline has went to ****. quit saying how we could break a big pass play, it would open up the run game. how about if we could break a run, it would open up the pass. all we have right now is the pass, and we still move the ball. eventually when teams know we cant run it they play the pass. its not rocket science. see our 3rd and ones all year long, our running game sucks, and its because our oline cant push the pile. its turned into having to pass on 3rd and one.

ahahahahahahahaahahahaha

remind me, what's the O's rank in scoring points?

i'm waiting.

Atwater His Ass
11-09-2009, 09:21 PM
It's also amazing how people has forgotten and bashed Peyton Hillis.Hillis is far better than any of the RB we have right now, yet people are criticizing him for fumbling on ST?
Give me a freaking break. Moreno has put the ball down more than Hillis, but that's not the real point, the point is, Moreno has had very little contribution so far.
He has not been the impact player Hillis is.
Get Hillis in there, and he will make things happen!

omg where to begin?

you actually 100% belive that PEYTON HILLIS is the BEST RB on this roster?

i'm sorry, i just want to make sure that is your position.

rastaman
11-09-2009, 09:22 PM
What the hell happend to Hillis ..... you want to power run use a power back.

Haven't you heard.....we are not to meantion Hillis! He's no good and fumbles to much!

The only way Denvers running attack gets untracked will be to use our Jumbo power backs as in Hillis and Jordan and run from an I-formation.

The single back running alignment of Buchalter or Moreno running the ball ain't going to to work for the remainder of our games.

kamakazi_kal
11-09-2009, 09:23 PM
would you rather pass for 3 yds or run for 0. for this game, our running plays were a wast of downs. maybe you didnt see that.

not to mention when most teams pass all the time, it makes the defense play the pass. so the steelers d played the pass, and we still couldnt run? nice call....

When none go over 3 yds ..... that's a 3 and out.

Thanks though.

Broncos4tw
11-09-2009, 09:23 PM
It seemed to me that they were playing to stop the run. Put the pressure on Orton. Make him win the game for us. A defense if stout, can shut down your running game.

The difference is this. If a team pressures your run, and forces you to pass, you then pass successfully to open the running game back up. We never did that. They never had to change their gameplan. Mostly because we throw almost all our passes from 5 to 8 yards. We NEVER stretch the field.. ever. Our passing game is laughably predictable.

kamakazi_kal
11-09-2009, 09:24 PM
Haven't you heard.....we are not to meantion Hillis! He's no good and fumbles to much!

The only way Denvers running attack gets untracked will be to use our Jumbo power backs as in Hillis and Jordan and run from an I-formation.

The single back running alignment of Buchalter or Moreno running the ball ain't going to to work for the remainder of our games.

Why can't we mention him? I missed that one.
Does "the player" want a contract or something?

rastaman
11-09-2009, 09:24 PM
omg where to begin?

you actually 100% belive that PEYTON HILLIS is the BEST RB on this roster?

i'm sorry, i just want to make sure that is your position.

We have got to try something! I'd like to see more Lamont Jordon and Peyton Hillis in an I-formation running alignment as well.

The single backfield isn't getting done.

Bob's your Information Minister
11-09-2009, 09:24 PM
Everything is going to be exposed before long.

Orton, the running game, your defense.....

Sliiiiiiiiiiiiiide.

Steve Sewell
11-09-2009, 09:25 PM
Great thread.

And even more pathetic, we didn't even really seem to try. I'm a little disappointed in the early returns on Moreno. He needs to be more decisive and hold onto the ball.

Moreno isn't getting any holes.

Hamilton was at LG, and Polumbus was at RT. It's stupid how badly those guys get overpowered by even average players.

Hamilton is a solid zone blocking guard. Polumbus is just bad, period.

You put Hochstein in Hamilton's place and get Harris back in, and the running game will be humming.

kamakazi_kal
11-09-2009, 09:26 PM
.............OI, Now fats%it is here. At least we still have a chance on sundays.

rastaman
11-09-2009, 09:27 PM
Why can't we mention him? I missed that one.
Does "the player" want a contract or something?

When some of us brought up why Hillis wasn't getting any touches 4 or 5 weeks ago we got crucified for asking b/c many fans felt Hillis was dogging it out there. Hillis has to much talent not to be in there. He's 250 lbs and runs the ball with power and he's has great hands and is a receiving threat coming out of the back field.

Steve Sewell
11-09-2009, 09:29 PM
Everything is going to be exposed before long.

Orton, the running game, your defense.....

Sliiiiiiiiiiiiiide.

Are you still a virgin?

mhgaffney
11-09-2009, 09:29 PM
Well, Taco, the scrum is over Orton because he is now exposed for what he is -- a pretender.

We saw the difference tonight between a winner -- Rothlesberger and a pretender -- Orton. We sacked Roth twice, forced two turnovers - one for a big defensive TD -- kicked him in the teeth -- and what did he do? He just kept coming. He marched right back down the field.

Orton can't stand pressure. He gets thrown out of his game way too easily. It is the way he is -- and he will never be any better than he is right now.

Sure Moreno made a mistake or two -- missed a big block -- but that was only one play. I think our failure to run has more to do with McDaniels. Yes, with McDaniels.

All those years he was in NE -- did they EVER have a running game? No way. This tracks back to McDaniels IMO.

It isn't just Pittsburg, either. We did not run well last week, either.

It gets ugly from now on.

kamakazi_kal
11-09-2009, 09:29 PM
4 weeks ago we had won 2 in a row not lost 2 in a row.

Popps
11-09-2009, 09:31 PM
Someone said that he's leading the rookies in rushing so far this season. I haven't been able to confirm that yet, but if that's the case, I think it says more about how poor the rookie rushing class is than how great Moreno is.

I want to believe in the guy, but I get a pit in my stomach every time I see him in there on third down.

It was me, and he was.

Though, I agree that the running game has to improve... and I agree that this rookie class isn't all-world. (Yet.)


I'm just not so sure these problems can be pinned on Moreno. When there's a hole, he runs well. Buckhalter looks better right now because he's a more explosive back through the hole. But, Moreno is the kind of runner that can wear defenses down if we can get him a hole to run through.

Broncos4tw
11-09-2009, 09:34 PM
I don't think it "gets ugly" now. Not every team has the defense to stop our running game. We'll run over teams like Washington, KC, etc. With our team, we'll probably easily get into the playoffs. But once there, I do think we will be done probably after the first game. And this will repeat every season. Because Orton is what he is, and you can't get blood from a turnip.

Imo, we do as well as we can, and we get a franchise QB as soon as one becomes available. Maybe trade our asses off next year to do this. That's the real missing piece of this puzzle.

kamakazi_kal
11-09-2009, 09:34 PM
It was me, and he was.

Though, I agree that the running game has to improve... and I agree that this rookie class isn't all-world. (Yet.)


I'm just not so sure these problems can be pinned on Moreno. When there's a hole, he runs well. Buckhalter looks better right now because he's a more explosive back through the hole. But, Moreno is the kind of runner that can wear defenses down if we can get him a hole to run through.

Why they don't try the I beats me. You can still have Marshall, Royal and Sheff on the field that way and help out the line a little.

atomicbloke
11-09-2009, 09:34 PM
It was me, and he was.

Though, I agree that the running game has to improve... and I agree that this rookie class isn't all-world. (Yet.)


I'm just not so sure these problems can be pinned on Moreno. When there's a hole, he runs well. Buckhalter looks better right now because he's a more explosive back through the hole. But, Moreno is the kind of runner that can wear defenses down if we can get him a hole to run through.

The rookie class at RB was terrible this year.

Moreno was a bad pick and is a terrible return on investment for a high pick.... he is only a 2-down back...

jbiel
11-09-2009, 09:35 PM
When none go over 3 yds ..... that's a 3 and out.

Thanks though.

really???, could you check for me and see what are % of passes went for less than 3 yds compared to our runs??

we have a good team, our offense moves the ball, our defense is very good. our special teams is lacking. for those that have played football, field position is a very critical part that never gets talked about. when we have a punter kicking it 20-30 yds every time, that is a killer.

there is no way you can put this on orton, please note orton doesnt call the plays and he hasnt had time to throw over 15 yds. after week 3 or 4 we were tops in the league in plays over 20 yds. the difference: protection and a running game. right now both are obsolete.

strafen
11-09-2009, 09:36 PM
omg where to begin?

you actually 100% belive that PEYTON HILLIS is the BEST RB on this roster?

i'm sorry, i just want to make sure that is your position.Oh please, enlighten me here, pal. Tell me who is then?

mhgaffney
11-09-2009, 09:37 PM
Atom,

You are full of BS. The problem is not Moreno. I think the failed running game must be laid at McDaniels' door.

In all those years at NE -- did the Pats EVER run the FB? No. They won on the arm of Brady.

bpc
11-09-2009, 09:38 PM
Moreno is a average back (right now at least) taking advantage of a pass 1st offense and the defenses that attempt to stop it. He hasn't played all world. The blocking could be better but great backs also make their own holes and plays.

What I see right now with Moreno is a very average player. He isn't explosive. He is solid at running, catching and blocking but he isn't spectacular at any of those. Jack of all, master of none.

He's a 200lb finesse back who runs a 4.6 and upright. It's a recipe for disaster in the NFL.

Personally I think we're gonna have to look at drafting another player to pair up with him in the future because I doubt he's ever more than a 3.9 ypc, 1000 yd back.

I hope I'm wrong but i've not seen one thing that makes me think he's all that special.

Atwater His Ass
11-09-2009, 09:38 PM
Oh please, enlighten me here, pal. Tell me who is then?

ill get to that.

your next post is YES or NO.

PEYTON HILLIS is the best RB on this team. YES or NO.

bpc
11-09-2009, 09:39 PM
I don't think it "gets ugly" now. Not every team has the defense to stop our running game. We'll run over teams like Washington, KC, etc. With our team, we'll probably easily get into the playoffs. But once there, I do think we will be done probably after the first game. And this will repeat every season. Because Orton is what he is, and you can't get blood from a turnip.

Imo, we do as well as we can, and we get a franchise QB as soon as one becomes available. Maybe trade our asses off next year to do this. That's the real missing piece of this puzzle.

The good news is the draft looks deep at QB. We should consider one between rounds 1-3.

Taco John
11-09-2009, 09:40 PM
omg where to begin?

you actually 100% belive that PEYTON HILLIS is the BEST RB on this roster?

i'm sorry, i just want to make sure that is your position.


Given what we saw from Hillis last season, and given what we've seen from Moreno this season, I personally believe that Hilis is the best RB on this roster at this point.

I wish he'd get a shot at more carries. What do we have to lose?

SoCalBronco
11-09-2009, 09:41 PM
They just need to mix in some inside and outside zone as a way to smoothen the transition on the line. Obviously, they will need to retool C and LG in the offseason so as to have some better system fits for the specific runs that Josh prefers. In the meantime, they've got to work with Hamilton and Weigmann and emphasize what those guys do well.....really what the whole OL does well, although the bookends as well as Kuper can hack it in any scheme. Going back to what Dennison can teach and what these guys can execute in the short term seems like a good idea. That will help out the run game. Giving Hillis some carries will also help, esp in short yardage.

There's no quick fix at QB, however. They're still doing a great job of squeezing every bit of production out of him. They can get him to play above his head...sometimes way above his head, but they just cant mask his problems against really good defenses. No one can. We've got some weaker teams coming up and I suspect they'll be able to fashion a great game plan for him and emphasize the plays he can do well, while minimizing the risk as usual. They just need Kyle to do well against the weaker to middle teams and rack up some more 23-10 wins that way. They WILL need to upgrade in that area, though. There's no question.

bpc
11-09-2009, 09:41 PM
ill get to that.

your next post is YES or NO.

PEYTON HILLIS is the best RB on this team. YES or NO.

Peyton Hillis is probably a more explosive, powerful back who blocks better and has better hands vs. Knowshon. The difference is Knowshon was drafted by McD and Hillis was drafted by Shanny.

Atwater His Ass
11-09-2009, 09:41 PM
Given what we saw from Hillis last season, and given what we've seen from Moreno this season, I personally believe that Hilis is the best RB on this roster at this point.

I wish he'd get a shot at more carries. What do we have to lose?

you honestly believe this? really?

i thought you were above the kool-aid around here on guys like hillis

Broncos4tw
11-09-2009, 09:42 PM
The good news is the draft looks deep at QB. We should consider one between rounds 1-3.

Yea, I agree, a solid year for QB prospects. I say keep Orton.. he IS a solid backup, imo. I'd rather have him than most. I just honestly don't think we'll win a SB with him as the QB, unless our defense becomes even more dominant than it is now.

But we'll not win any game scoring 3 offensive points, that's just terrible.

kamakazi_kal
11-09-2009, 09:44 PM
really???, could you check for me and see what are % of passes went for less than 3 yds compared to our runs??

we have a good team, our offense moves the ball, our defense is very good. our special teams is lacking. for those that have played football, field position is a very critical part that never gets talked about. when we have a punter kicking it 20-30 yds every time, that is a killer.

there is no way you can put this on orton, please note orton doesnt call the plays and he hasnt had time to throw over 15 yds. after week 3 or 4 we were tops in the league in plays over 20 yds. the difference: protection and a running game. right now both are obsolete.

Tops in the league in RAC yards .... you can't depend on that every single week. Our offense moves the ball yes.... everyone blamed cutler for that same issue last year ...... it's the scoring dude.....we just haven't been doing that in the last few games.

Atwater His Ass
11-09-2009, 09:44 PM
Peyton Hillis is probably a more explosive, powerful back who blocks better and has better hands vs. Knowshon. The difference is Knowshon was drafted by McD and Hillis was drafted by Shanny.

omg this is gold.

Popps
11-09-2009, 09:46 PM
The rookie class at RB was terrible this year.

Moreno was a bad pick and is a terrible return on investment for a high pick.... he is only a 2-down back...

For one, we're not "investing" that much at the #12 spot.

Second, he's played a half of a season. Maybe we can give him just a wee-bit longer before making definitive judgments?

Crazy, I know.

Taco John
11-09-2009, 09:46 PM
you honestly believe this? really?

i thought you were above the kool-aid around here on guys like hillis


It has nothing to do with Kool-aid. I've seen all three of our guys running, and without a doubt, Peyton Hillis has done more in a Broncos uniform than any other runner on our roster. If this isn't true, then show me where it's not true, but don't give me this knee-jerk kool-aid stuff. I'm talking about production, not about hopes.

Taco John
11-09-2009, 09:48 PM
Of all the runningbacks on our roster, Peyton Hillis has given Denver the most production.

kamakazi_kal
11-09-2009, 09:48 PM
Coming off the Bye we have looked very predictable on O. If we lose to washington don't you think we would have to shake it up a bit .... QB or RB?

Popps
11-09-2009, 09:48 PM
Peyton Hillis is probably a more explosive, powerful back who blocks better and has better hands vs. Knowshon. The difference is Knowshon was drafted by McD and Hillis was drafted by Shanny.

:spit:

Yea, McDaniels is definitely a guy that's going to start his own guys just to spite his own team.

He'd definitely choose a less talented player.

I mean, it's not like he's starting any of Shanahan's players.

Oh, wait...

Steve Sewell
11-09-2009, 09:49 PM
The rookie class at RB was terrible this year.

Moreno was a bad pick and is a terrible return on investment for a high pick.... he is only a 2-down back...

2 of our starters on O-line are Ben Hamilton and Tyler Polumbus. Moreno had nowhere to go.

Is Moreno making rookie mistakes in the blocking and fumbling department? Hell yes.

However Moreno, athletically, is the real deal. And from what I've seen/heard he's a great teammate.

Hopefully our o-line can get healthy (Harris) and we can prevent our LG from getting overpowered every play (replace Hamilton) and you can see what the kid is actually capable of.

Atwater His Ass
11-09-2009, 09:50 PM
It has nothing to do with Kool-aid. I've seen all three of our guys running, and without a doubt, Peyton Hillis has done more in a Broncos uniform than any other runner on our roster. If this isn't true, then show me where it's not true, but don't give me this knee-jerk kool-aid stuff. I'm talking about production, not about hopes.

Buckhalter at a minimum is better than Hillis (the guy that can't even get activated for every game) based on production alone.

Moreno has the talent, hence why he was thought of as the best RB in the draft this year. Hillis was so thought of he went in the 7th round.

Hillis is nothing but a homer's hope that he will be the answer at RB. If the guy was half as good as people around here think, he'd be starting every week or at least getting consistent carries at RB.

So what's the reason the guy can't see the field since his talent is so immense?

Get real. The guy at this point doesn't have what it takes to even see the field, let alone excel once he gets there.

Bronco Yoda
11-09-2009, 09:55 PM
Given what we saw from Hillis last season, and given what we've seen from Moreno this season, I personally believe that Hilis is the best RB on this roster at this point.

I wish he'd get a shot at more carries. What do we have to lose?

Is this the same TJ that argued with me that Hillis wasn't even a real RB ?

jbiel
11-09-2009, 09:55 PM
Tops in the league in RAC yards .... you can't depend on that every single week. Our offense moves the ball yes.... everyone blamed cutler for that same issue last year ...... it's the scoring dude.....we just haven't been doing that in the last few games.

well, i'll give you that on the RAC yards but the only one i can really think of is marshall breaking some tackles against dallas, and of course the stokley play. we played one of the best defenses tonight and moved the ball, the big plays were lacking which doesnt always have to come from a bomb. we were close with a few plays, marshall and royal had one man to beat a few times. i'm just saying this is not on orton by no means. special teams and field position killed us. defense played pretty good, but i wasnt sure how pit got so many run yards on obvious run downs. hopefully we didnt get exposed there.

Taco John
11-09-2009, 09:58 PM
Buckhalter at a minimum is better than Hillis (the guy that can't even get activated for every game) based on production alone.

I like Buckhalter, and since game one of this season, I have been saying that Buckhalter should be getting the bulk of our carries. And the response to that has been: Buckhalter would last three games if he got the bulk of our carries.

In 8 games and 64 carries, Buckhalter has netted us 1 single TD. Which by the way, is the same amount that Peyton Hillis has gained for us this year on 4 carries.

Last year, Peyton Hillis had a stretch where he scored at least a touchdown a game (it was something like 5 games)

I'm not talking about fan boy stuff here. I'm talking about production on the field. Hillis, a 7th rounder, has more production than any runningback on our roster right now. The guy has a knack for moving the chains and finding the endzone.

We have nothing to lose by giving him a shot.

Taco John
11-09-2009, 10:00 PM
Is this the same TJ that argued with me that Hillis wasn't even a real RB ?

I never once made that argument. I did make the argument that I wanted Hillis to be part of a one-two punch, and be utilized like Alstott. But I never said he wasn't a real RB.

strafen
11-09-2009, 10:00 PM
ill get to that.

your next post is YES or NO.

PEYTON HILLIS is the best RB on this team. YES or NO.I'm asking the question here, bud.
Just answer my question.
Who is the better RB in the team?
What RB right now has had a noticeable impact this season?
What data are you using to refute my post?

Excuse me for a minute while I show you some numbers...(as of last week)
Moreno is our leading rusher with 420 yards and 2 TD
C-Buck is next with 329 yards and 1 TD

They're on pace to score 6 TD between the two. And not even be close to crack 1000 yards individually...
Hillis can also catch the ball out of the backfield.
Hillis is by far a whole lot more of an offensive weapon than Moreno and Cbuck put together...

bpc
11-09-2009, 10:01 PM
omg this is gold.

OK, i'll explain.

Peyton probably runs a 4.4/4.5. Knowshon timed at a 4.6. Hillis is 6'1" 250, Knowshon is 5'11", 215.

Hillis has the best hands on a HB/FB that i've ever seen outside of Marshall Faulk. No joke. He's got great hands.

He plays fullback and has done so at a high level since college at run heavy Arkansas where he blocked for McFadden and Felix Jones.

Finally, PEYTON Hillis hits the hole with authority and when there is no hole, he makes one. When it's 3rd and 1, he picks up 1st downs.

<object width="560" height="340"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/cSjDe0WDuCg&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/cSjDe0WDuCg&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="560" height="340"></embed></object>

When Knowshon runs on 3rd and 1, he gets tackled in the backfield by a defensive linemen who's being blocked.

This offense needs a hammer who can set a tempo. Our backs now aren't doing it.

Atwater His Ass
11-09-2009, 10:03 PM
Hillis got a gimmie 1 yard TD early in the season. Then he fumbled his way out of the short yardage posistion and eventually off the team active game day roster. that is a fact.

like i already said in this thread, the lack of prodcution of the RB's has A LOT to do with the lack of ability of orton to make a defense respect the running game by stretching the defense.

hillis wont' do **** in this offense. he should be more concerned with being able to put on pads on Sunday at this point.

Taco John
11-09-2009, 10:03 PM
Thanks for that Hillis video. That's the kind of support that Kyle needs from his running backs.

Taco John
11-09-2009, 10:05 PM
Hillis got a gimmie 1 yard TD early in the season. Then he fumbled his way out of the short yardage posistion and eventually off the team active game day roster. that is a fact.

like i already said in this thread, the lack of prodcution of the RB's has A LOT to do with the lack of ability of orton to make a defense respect the running game by stretching the defense.

hillis wont' do **** in this offense. he should be more concerned with being able to put on pads on Sunday at this point.


Your argument is emotional and not based on production.

Popps
11-09-2009, 10:06 PM
I've been a big Hillis fan, but I have no idea how he'd run in this offense. There's also been a lot of speculation (and some proof on the field) that he's not picking things up like he should be.

Ultimately, Moreno is a guy we HAVE to develop. We're not winning any SBs this year, so develop him this year.

strafen
11-09-2009, 10:06 PM
Hillis got a gimmie 1 yard TD early in the season. Then he fumbled his way out of the short yardage posistion and eventually off the team active game day roster. that is a fact.

like i already said in this thread, the lack of prodcution of the RB's has A LOT to do with the lack of ability of orton to make a defense respect the running game by stretching the defense.

hillis wont' do **** in this offense. he should be more concerned with being able to put on pads on Sunday at this point.Ok, how many times has Moreno fumbled the ball?
Did you remember or even saw Hillis playing last season?
What do you know about football to mention almost like a fact that Hillis won't **** on this offense?
Explain, bud...I'm all ears...

jbiel
11-09-2009, 10:07 PM
I like Buckhalter, and since game one of this season, I have been saying that Buckhalter should be getting the bulk of our carries. And the response to that has been: Buckhalter would last three games if he got the bulk of our carries.

In 8 games and 64 carries, Buckhalter has netted us 1 single TD. Which by the way, is the same amount that Peyton Hillis has gained for us this year on 4 carries.

Last year, Peyton Hillis had a stretch where he scored at least a touchdown a game (it was something like 5 games)

I'm not talking about fan boy stuff here. I'm talking about production on the field. Hillis, a 7th rounder, has more production than any runningback on our roster right now. The guy has a knack for moving the chains and finding the endzone.

We have nothing to lose by giving him a shot.

good post. the only problem is with our blocking i'm not sure hillis could do any better. for now i would love to see hillis as our back with buckhalter the 3rd down back. moreno will be good in time, but he's learning and buckhalter is ahead of him. not to mention hillis is a good pass catching rb.

kamakazi_kal
11-09-2009, 10:08 PM
I'm asking the question here, bud.
Just answer my question.
Who is the better RB in the team?
What RB right now has had a noticeable impact this season?
What data are you using to refute my post?

Excuse me for a minute while I show you some numbers...(as of last week)
Moreno is our leading rusher with 420 yards and 2 TD
C-Buck is next with 329 yards and 1 TD

They're on pace to score 6 TD between the two. And not even be close to crack 1000 yards individually...
Hillis can also catch the ball out of the backfield.
Hillis is by far a whole lot more of an offensive weapon than Moreno and Cbuck put together...


You can't really say Hillis is better right now ...... He has yet to recieve a fair chance and using Shanny O as a baseline won't work. Hillis may not fair well at single back sets ...... I'd like to see him try though.

Taco John
11-09-2009, 10:08 PM
I've been a big Hillis fan, but I have no idea how he'd run in this offense. There's also been a lot of speculation (and some proof on the field) that he's not picking things up like he should be.

Ultimately, Moreno is a guy we HAVE to develop. We're not winning any SBs this year, so develop him this year.


Some times the best way to develop a guy is to bench him and give another guy a shot.

Bronco Yoda
11-09-2009, 10:09 PM
I never once made that argument. I did make the argument that I wanted Hillis to be part of a one-two punch, and be utilized like Alstott. But I never said he wasn't a real RB.

You said he was a FB. Wasn't starting RB material.

kamakazi_kal
11-09-2009, 10:09 PM
good post. the only problem is with our blocking i'm not sure hillis could do any better. for now i would love to see hillis as our back with buckhalter the 3rd down back. moreno will be good in time, but he's learning and buckhalter is ahead of him. not to mention hillis is a good pass catching rb.

Moreno's pass blocking is just plain bad man..... Hillis would help their for sure.

Taco John
11-09-2009, 10:10 PM
Also, if we have problems blocking, Hillis is a 250 lb guy who can blow open holes.

Steve Sewell
11-09-2009, 10:11 PM
re: Hillis, I'm going to have to agree with the posters that say he needs to get some touches.

His hands, for a FB, are ridiculously good, and he obviously has a lot of athletic ability. However, I think I've read quite a few stories about him being in Forest Gump land when it comes to intelligence, which is probably why he's not getting a lot of play.

Taco John
11-09-2009, 10:11 PM
You said he was a FB. Wasn't starting RB material.

I'm still not wild about him as a full time HB. I'd rather see him in a two back role where he's playing a hybrid FB/HB. I think his ability as a blocker is just as valuable as his ability to carry the ball.

Killericon
11-09-2009, 10:12 PM
I don't understand why there is all this focus on Orton.

Really? You don't? I think you do...

It's because people were already picking out Cutler's spot on the ring of fame, and he got traded, and replaced by Orton.

bpc
11-09-2009, 10:15 PM
Thanks for that Hillis video. That's the kind of support that Kyle needs from his running backs.

Even better one...

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I haven't seen Moreno show me anything even remotely close to this impressive in any phase of the game. Just being honest about it.

kamakazi_kal
11-09-2009, 10:16 PM
re: Hillis, I'm going to have to agree with the posters that say he needs to get some touches.

His hands, for a FB, are ridiculously good, and he obviously has a lot of athletic ability. However, I think I've read quite a few stories about him being in Forest Gump land when it comes to intelligence, which is probably why he's not getting a lot of play.

Dude Forrest was stupid but that boy could run. If he was running the same plays as cbuck and moreno my guess is he would average 1yd more per run. just falling foward if nothing else.

I guess I'm just thinking dude may attack the line and defenders not just try to slip by......... you want to power run .... use a power runner.

Bronco Yoda
11-09-2009, 10:16 PM
I'm still not wild about him as a full time HB. I'd rather see him in a two back role where he's playing a hybrid FB/HB. I think his ability as a blocker is just as valuable as his ability to carry the ball.

Well, we can both agree on the two back set. Let's splash some good old fashioned ZBS with that (the line is still built for it afterall).

You think McD will listen to us? You do the note and I'll buy the flowers...

OBF1
11-09-2009, 10:20 PM
Both are bad...Orton is avg, can't create outside the pocket and throw accurately, and the running game isn't anywhere to be found. A lot of this is due to the safeties and linebackers not worried about Orton going over the top...So when people complain about orton, it has to do with the play calling and his ability to keep the defense honest.

I am going to agree with Taco and call BS on those of you that say,"It is our crappy QB's fault"

Perfect example. Adrian Peterson, 2 years he faced 8 in the box with a POOR qb in Tavaris Jackson, YET AP was able to set the single game rushing record in his 1st pro season and lead the league in rushing in year 2.... The more I see Moreno run the ball, the less I like what I see in him. I hope he proves me wrong.

Taco John
11-09-2009, 10:22 PM
Those Hillis videos are making me restless...

Bronco Yoda
11-09-2009, 10:23 PM
Did we even get a running 1st down tonight? I don't think so. I'll have to double check.

kamakazi_kal
11-09-2009, 10:25 PM
I am going to agree with Taco and call BS on those of you that say,"It is our crappy QB's fault"

Perfect example. Adrian Peterson, 2 years he faced 8 in the box with a POOR qb in Tavaris Jackson, YET AP was able to set the single game rushing record in his 1st pro season and lead the league in rushing in year 2.... The more I see Moreno run the ball, the less I like what I see in him. I hope he proves me wrong.

ha ha dude. If we had an AP Orton would be all world.

I don't think it's all Orton but he isn't helping. Don't count me though I have never really been impressed with the guy. He's looked like training camp Orton since the bye.

Atwater His Ass
11-09-2009, 10:26 PM
Your argument is emotional and not based on production.

buckhalter out performs hillis.

moreno has a skill set hillis only can dream about.

all 3 need production from the rest of the offense to be effective.

not sure how more clear cut i can make it for you hoss, other than buckhalter and moreno get to wear pads on sunday's and hillis is a coin flip either way.

kamakazi_kal
11-09-2009, 10:26 PM
I think we had 1 .... yard .... rushing in the second half. You have to try really hard to make that happen me thinks.

strafen
11-09-2009, 10:27 PM
You can't really say Hillis is better right now ...... He has yet to recieve a fair chance and using Shanny O as a baseline won't work. Hillis may not fair well at single back sets ...... I'd like to see him try though.

We don't know. I don't know, and you don't know, but I'm willing to bet that if given a fair chance to play enough, that he won't be any worse at all than Moreno or Cbuck.
I'm willing th bet he would add more spark to our offense.

The bottom line is...Hillis is not a player to have on the bench.
He needs to be on the field. Whether he is or he's not a single back set runner, it's on the coaching staff to figure out how to use him.
He's a great FB that can do it all, and he has shown he can run the ball as a RB quite as well...

kamakazi_kal
11-09-2009, 10:29 PM
buckhalter out performs hillis.

moreno has a skill set hillis only can dream about.

all 3 need production from the rest of the offense to be effective.

not sure how more clear cut i can make it for you hoss, other than buckhalter and moreno get to wear pads on sunday's and hillis is a coin flip either way.

Don't know about all that Hills can catch the ball really well and if you think Morenos pass blocking is better I'm going to assume you had to many pregame beers.

Oh, and since Hillis hasn't been playing how can you really judge correctly?

Taco John
11-09-2009, 10:29 PM
buckhalter out performs hillis.

moreno has a skill set hillis only can dream about.

all 3 need production from the rest of the offense to be effective.

not sure how more clear cut i can make it for you hoss, other than buckhalter and moreno get to wear pads on sunday's and hillis is a coin flip either way.


Thos are all nice things to say, but it's not like you're backing up your statements up with numbers. It's just an emotional argument.

Atwater His Ass
11-09-2009, 10:30 PM
We don't know. I don't know, and you don't know, but I'm willing to bet that if given a fair chance to play enough, that he won't be any worse at all than Moreno or Cbuck.
I'm willing th bet he would add more spark to our offense.

The bottom line is...Hillis is not a player to have on the bench.
He needs to be on the field. Whether he is or he's not a single back set runner, it's on the coaching staff to figure out how to use him.
He's a great FB that can do it all, and he has shown he can run the ball as a RB quite as well...

you guys keep saying that. but guess what? the guy that conducts practice and makes player evaluations (his name is McDaniels) DISAGREES with you 100% and doesn't think Hillis should even dress in pads half the time let alone be the go to RB.

Get a clue. Hillis the Great is a production of the omane machine, based on homeristic views and desires for this team to be great.

bpc
11-09-2009, 10:33 PM
Shonn Greene in the 3rd round this past April is going to make Knowshon look REAL silly in a few seasons. REAL SILLY.

strafen
11-09-2009, 10:33 PM
buckhalter out performs hillis.

moreno has a skill set hillis only can dream about.

all 3 need production from the rest of the offense to be effective.

not sure how more clear cut i can make it for you hoss, other than buckhalter and moreno get to wear pads on sunday's and hillis is a coin flip either way.You've already lost credibility as far as I'm concerned, but figure I give you a chance before I put you on my ignore list so I don't become too dumb reading your rationale here.
Explain to me with facts and figures how is Cbuck and Moreno better than Hillis?
I haven't seen anything in Moreno (2TD's) that can convince me that he's not a bust.
I have not seen anything in Cbuck (1TD) that has had any impact in any game this season, have you?
Neither one has been the type of impact player a defense will prepare for.
They're both there to represent a running game that doesn't exist, that they can't move forward, that they can't get going.
Nuff, said!

Atwater His Ass
11-09-2009, 10:34 PM
Shonn Greene in the 3rd round this past April is going to make Knowshon look REAL silly in a few seasons. REAL SILLY.

bookmarked.

kamakazi_kal
11-09-2009, 10:34 PM
you guys keep saying that. but guess what? the guy that conducts practice and makes player evaluations (his name is McDaniels) DISAGREES with you 100% and doesn't think Hillis should even dress in pads half the time let alone be the go to RB.

Get a clue. Hillis the Great is a production of the omane machine, based on homeristic views and desires for this team to be great.

Well Mcd's system has no use for a FB. You can't disagree that something should be tried different.

Atwater His Ass
11-09-2009, 10:36 PM
You've already lost credibility as far as I'm concerned, but figure I give you a chance before I put you on my ignore list so I don't become too dumb reading your rationale here.
Explain to me with facts and figures how is Cbuck and Moreno better than Hillis?
I haven't seen anything in Moreno (2TD's) that can convince me that he's not a bust.
I have not seen anything in Cbuck (1TD) that has had any impact in any game this season, have you?
Neither one has been the type of impact player a defense will prepare for.
They're both there to represent a running game that doesn't exist, that they can't move forward, that they can't get going.
Nuff, said!

Put me on ignore, you're a lost cause.

And when you're doing so, rationalze to yourself how a guy that isn't allowed to put the pads on for game day is better than a consensus (guys that know more than you) first round pick and a guy that has out produced him in REAL GAMES this season.

Enjoy the omane hype machine as your main vechile to player evaluations.

strafen
11-09-2009, 10:37 PM
Get a clue. Hillis the Great is a production of the omane machine, based on homeristic views and desires for this team to be great.I think I'm becoming stupid by your posts...

I think Cbuck and Moreno are a production of Atwater His Ass, based on homeristic views and desires for these bums to be great

Atwater His Ass
11-09-2009, 10:37 PM
Well Mcd's system has no use for a FB. You can't disagree that something should be tried different.

The argument is that Hillis should be the starting RB.

FB has nothing to do with the current discussion. Try to keep up please.

kamakazi_kal
11-09-2009, 10:41 PM
The argument is that Hillis should be the starting RB.

FB has nothing to do with the current discussion. Try to keep up please.

Ok .... your right ..... lets stick with the 6 points a game thing.

Atwater His Ass
11-09-2009, 10:44 PM
Ok .... your right ..... lets stick with the 6 points a game thing.

not sure what you're getting at here. im already on record with my displeasure of the offense from week 1.

i'm not advocating hillis to be the starter.

it appears in some round about fantasy land that you think that if hillis was starting we'd score more?

lol in any case.

kamakazi_kal
11-09-2009, 10:46 PM
not sure what you're getting at here. im already on record with my displeasure of the offense from week 1.

i'm not advocating hillis to be the starter.

it appears in some round about fantasy land that you think that if hillis was starting we'd score more?

lol in any case.

I simply said maybe he would fair better a pass protection and could at 250 at least fall foward for more then 1 yard in a half. Never said starter or fulltime but maybe in obvious passing downs ...... or just something other then what we have seen the last 2 weeks.

strafen
11-09-2009, 10:48 PM
The argument is that Hillis should be the starting RB.

FB has nothing to do with the current discussion. Try to keep up please.I'll bet Hillis will be better as our starting RB.
I do however concede your point as to why Hillis hasn't seen much action.
It's speculative at this point to take a guess.
One thing I'm sure of, it is NOT because of his skills have diminished or that he's a far worse a player than he was last year.
It's up to McD to swallow his ego and play Shanny's boy and not the scrubs he is intended to die with this season...

kamakazi_kal
11-09-2009, 10:57 PM
The argument is that Hillis should be the starting RB.

FB has nothing to do with the current discussion. Try to keep up please.

Oi, dude talk about trying to keep up ..... you didn't read any of my other like 8 posts in this thread ..... did you?

Atwater His Ass
11-09-2009, 11:00 PM
I'll bet Hillis will be better as our starting RB.
I do however concede your point as to why Hillis hasn't seen much action.
It's speculative at this point to take a guess.
One thing I'm sure of, it is NOT because of his skills have diminished or that he's a far worse a player than he was last year.
It's up to McD to swallow his ego and play Shanny's boy and not the scrubs he is intended to die with this season...

so your argument is that it's a shanny vs. mcd guy.

that hillis has all the talent in the world, but mcd won't play him and in effect fix all of our offensive problems because of his own ego? really?

c'mon man.

the reason hillis doesn't see the field is because he can't perform. maybe next season he gets one more shot to develop and maybe he turns out ok.

but to say that mcd is keeping him from the field because he's a shanny guy is just blantantly retarded.

if he had the talent level you think he does, he'd be able to play his way onto the field. period.

Oi, dude talk about trying to keep up ..... you didn't read any of my other like 8 posts in this thread ..... did you?

seriously are you drunk?

kamakazi_kal
11-09-2009, 11:09 PM
so your argument is that it's a shanny vs. mcd guy.

that hillis has all the talent in the world, but mcd won't play him and in effect fix all of our offensive problems because of his own ego? really?

c'mon man.

the reason hillis doesn't see the field is because he can't perform. maybe next season he gets one more shot to develop and maybe he turns out ok.

but to say that mcd is keeping him from the field because he's a shanny guy is just blantantly retarded.

if he had the talent level you think he does, he'd be able to play his way onto the field. period.



seriously are you drunk?

Ahhhhhh <sigh> forget it man, your right I'm wrong ..... moving on.

Atwater His Ass
11-09-2009, 11:12 PM
glad we cleared that up.

pleased to be deleting your omane account now.

kamakazi_kal
11-09-2009, 11:16 PM
glad we cleared that up.

pleased to be deleting your omane account now.

No, I won't be closing my account. You just kind of want to meltdown or something.

I'm just not into it.

Atwater His Ass
11-09-2009, 11:18 PM
No, I won't be closing my account. You just kind of want to meltdown or something.

I'm just not into it.

cool.

nice to see you're still posting here, you know, with all that composure and all.

keep fighting the good fight! :rofl:

Don Flamenco
11-10-2009, 12:46 AM
Some times the best way to develop a guy is to bench him and give another guy a shot.

Why don't we develop Hillis. It's only his second year

bpc
11-10-2009, 12:49 AM
Because we drafted Knowshon 12th overall and despite his shortcomings as a ballcarrier, we're gonna make him bleed until he gets that 1000 yds to justify the pick.

Popps
11-10-2009, 12:57 AM
Because we drafted Knowshon 12th overall and despite his shortcomings as a ballcarrier, we're gonna make him bleed until he gets that 1000 yds to justify the pick.

Again, Chris... you're not applying logic to any of your arguments.


McDaniels started Buckhalter tonight. He's distributed the carries. If he was trying to "justify" any picks, why wouldn't Moreno be getting them ALL?

I know you want this thing to fail, Chris... but you're going to have to at least try to fabricate your false claims using SOME basis in truth.

Clady, Marshall, Wiegmann, Willliams, Bailey, Dumervil, Peterson, Royal, etc...etc...etc...

All of these Shanahan guys starting. I wonder why McDaniels hasn't benched them to "justify" some of his other acquisitions?

Hmmm....

BossChief
11-10-2009, 01:12 AM
its Elway syndrome

that was easy

bpc
11-10-2009, 01:27 AM
Again, Chris... you're not applying logic to any of your arguments.


McDaniels started Buckhalter tonight. He's distributed the carries. If he was trying to "justify" any picks, why wouldn't Moreno be getting them ALL?

I know you want this thing to fail, Chris... but you're going to have to at least try to fabricate your false claims using SOME basis in truth.

Clady, Marshall, Wiegmann, Willliams, Bailey, Dumervil, Peterson, Royal, etc...etc...etc...

All of these Shanahan guys starting. I wonder why McDaniels hasn't benched them to "justify" some of his other acquisitions?

Hmmm....

Moreno is almost doubling Buckhalters carries on the year. Injuries factor in there but I don't think it would have been that different anyways had Buck not gotten hurt.

YYYYYAWN. Painting people with opposing opinions to be the enemy again? Come on now bud, you know I don't work like that. I'm orange and blue through and through. I'm happy at 6-2 outside of our offense which has been borderline horrendous. The fact is if your team is to have super bowl aspirations, you have to find a stud QB. We clearly don't have that right now. When Pittsburgh needed a play, Ben went clutch on us. Heck, Flacco did the same the week before. When we need a play we have.... Orton and Berger following up with a shank. Recipe for disaster.

You can't have below average players starting at QB. That position holds the ball what, 70, 80 times a game? Orton is lumped into the same POS pile Plummer, Griese, Kanell and the others are in.

Best thing we can do is attempt to upgrade the "INFRASTRUCTURE" as you like to say. Major upgrades needed at QB right now if Orton is the best we can throw out there. He could get us to the playoffs... but he'll never bring us a championship. Just like Jake never would have.

Hulamau
11-10-2009, 01:36 AM
Is it taboo to call Moreno a bust yet?

Has he shown ANYTHING at all so far? ANYTHING to suggest he can be viable RB in the future? RBs take the least time to transition to the pros.... no use denying the obvious.... we wasted our high 1st...

A classic Numbskull analysis by AtomicBloke ... don't you have a nuclear test to be busy with at Bikini atoll or something??

I think we should trade Moreno for a bag of popcorn while we can get it .. don't you AB!!?

fontaine
11-10-2009, 02:45 AM
I've been talking about the running game being a weak spot for a while now, and people here have been saying for a while that our running IS WEAK on third and short.

That being said Orton did have an awful game. He was 2 of 9 on third downs fumbled the ball once, and coughed up 3 ints including a pick 6.

And it wasn't as if we were behind or there was a ton of pressure on him. The defense stoned Pittsburgh time and time again until the 4th quarter when the ints/fumbles on the last three drives destroyed our chances.

I'm not criticizing Orton for not making plays. I understand he's not that kind of QB, and McDaniels should have done a better job in prepping the running game especially when it's clear we're having much more success with ZB running plays.

I AM criticizing Orton for making douchebag mistakes that resulted in a pick 6, fumble, and another int that killed our chances when the defense kept it close and he fully deserves that.

The biggest thing Orton has going for him is that he doesn't make mistakes when there's no play to be made. Take that away and he's nothing.

If we wanted a mistake prone, dink and dunk QB then we should have stuck with Plummer.

But, I still have faith in Orton and I think this game was more of an aberration.

watermock
11-10-2009, 02:46 AM
Because we drafted Knowshon 12th overall and despite his shortcomings as a ballcarrier, we're gonna make him bleed until he gets that 1000 yds to justify the pick.


Maybe because Moreno has shown nothing but the ability to run blind, fuimble and look slow, and McBeavis is commited to his first round pick.

Ever consider that?

BTW, I'm the first to question his speed.

He's another Sammy Winder.

watermock
11-10-2009, 02:49 AM
I've been talking about the running game being a weak spot for a while now, and people here have been saying for a while that our running IS WEAK on third and short.

That being said Orton did have an awful game. He was 2 of 9 on third downs fumbled the ball once, and coughed up 3 ints including a pick 6.

And it wasn't as if we were behind or there was a ton of pressure on him. The defense stoned Pittsburgh time and time again until the 4th quarter when the ints/fumbles on the last three drives destroyed our chances.

I'm not criticizing Orton for not making plays. I understand he's not that kind of QB, and McDaniels should have done a better job in prepping the running game especially when it's clear we're having much more success with ZB running plays.

I AM criticizing Orton for making douchebag mistakes that resulted in a pick 6, fumble, and another int that killed our chances when the defense kept if close and he fully deserves that.

+1

It looked like we implementeed the power blocking scheme and it failed.

The Moops
11-10-2009, 03:54 AM
You still have to keep trying to run the ball no matter if you're behind. 27 total rushing yards tells me the Broncos didn't try to run too much.

Orton was clearly having a bad day, but still passed on almost every down. The Steelers, or any good team, will gladly play against a one-dimensional team.

WolfpackGuy
11-10-2009, 04:09 AM
Orton doesn't scare anybody deep, so defenses are beginning to crowd the line and sell out against the run. That + "The Coach" stubbornly calling NE style running plays = disaster.

What's the count up to now of Denver RB's getting hit in the backfield?

watermock
11-10-2009, 04:31 AM
Orton doesn't scare anybody deep, so defenses are beginning to crowd the line and sell out against the run. That + "The Coach" stubbornly calling NE style running plays = disaster.

What's the count up to now of Denver RB's getting hit in the backfield?

I saw zero %./

lex
11-10-2009, 05:07 AM
No vertical passing threat is hurting the running game as is a combination of Hamilton needing to be replaced and insisting on calling running plays that dont suit the personnel.

TonyR
11-10-2009, 06:37 AM
I'm all for Hillis getting some touches but these ideas that he's better than Buckhalter and Moreno and not playing because he's a "Shanahan guy", and that he somehow would have done better last night, are silly. There was nowhere to run last night.

SoDak Bronco
11-10-2009, 06:47 AM
No vertical passing threat is hurting the running game as is a combination of Hamilton needing to be replaced and insisting on calling running plays that dont suit the personnel.

Ding Ding Ding...we have a winner...This is all.

denvernut1
11-10-2009, 04:20 PM
yeah blame mcd put hillis as a fullback or rb at short yds.. **** we cant even get 3 n 1 thats patheic ... n his stupid 5 yd passes .. y do we have brandon noyal for .... its makes me sick.........................

Rohirrim
11-10-2009, 05:12 PM
I think Moreno has possibilities. How many NFL games has he played in? Maybe in another two years he'll be really good?

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Popps
11-10-2009, 06:11 PM
It's a work in progress, folks. I'm more encouraged that the defense came together so quickly. The offense is complex, and even a great QB like Elway needed time to excel in a new system. Orton has average physical skills, so he's going to need time... protection and a running game to succeed.

But, you people ready to throw the coach and Moreno under the bus because we lost to a couple of the best teams (defenses) in football might want to remember how well your off-season predictions went. (3-13, the club set back 50 years, etc.)

Sounds to me like a lot of people overreacted to a 6-0 start, and they're overreacting to a 0-2 run against two great teams.

gyldenlove
11-10-2009, 07:14 PM
The problem is that most of our passes (the vast majority) go to the short middle of the field, so people jam up that area which also just happens to be the area where the run game is supposed to go. So the defense just packs 8 or 9 guys in between the line of scrimmage and 10 yards back and we have to run into that with 6 or 7 blockers, we are getting outnumbered on every single run.

lex
11-10-2009, 07:38 PM
It's a work in progress, folks. I'm more encouraged that the defense came together so quickly. The offense is complex, and even a great QB like Elway needed time to excel in a new system. Orton has average physical skills, so he's going to need time... protection and a running game to succeed.

But, you people ready to throw the coach and Moreno under the bus because we lost to a couple of the best teams (defenses) in football might want to remember how well your off-season predictions went. (3-13, the club set back 50 years, etc.)

Sounds to me like a lot of people overreacted to a 6-0 start, and they're overreacting to a 0-2 run against two great teams.

3-13 was one of your offseason predictions as well but, like now, couched in excuse making.

Its interesting that you mention the defense because even still, more talent is probably on the offensive side of the ball, yet its unit thats not getting it done now. Nolan has made it work with less.

Popps
11-10-2009, 09:54 PM
3-13 was one of your offseason predictions as well .

Of course it wasn't. I simply said my expectations were realistic, but that I was on board with the future.

Poor guy. Now you're just down to lying, trying to cover for your offseason of embarrassing yourself.

Then again, you're still embarrassing yourself.

Anything for attention, I guess.

Hey, at least you haven't been banned this week for gay porn or attacking someone's family. I guess you're making progress.

Popps
11-10-2009, 09:56 PM
3 more talent is probably on the offensive side of the ball, yet its unit thats not getting it done now. Nolan has made it work with less.

Wait... I thought Orton was trash, our line was trash and Moreno was trash?

Wow, you Jay-Gay Chicago trolls are going to have to start getting your **** together before you post.

lex
11-10-2009, 10:11 PM
Of course it wasn't. I simply said my expectations were realistic, but that I was on board with the future.

Poor guy. Now you're just down to lying, trying to cover for your offseason of embarrassing yourself.

Then again, you're still embarrassing yourself.

Anything for attention, I guess.

Hey, at least you haven't been banned this week for gay porn or attacking someone's family. I guess you're making progress.

I made no predictions and certainly none that covered every scenario (http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showpost.php?p=2451199&postcount=29). Talk about embarassing. I even provided proof to you previously when you asked for it. Apparently you have conveniently forgotten that or you are lying. Again, talk about embarrassing.

lex
11-10-2009, 10:11 PM
Wait... I thought Orton was trash, our line was trash and Moreno was trash?

Wow, you Jay-Gay Chicago trolls are going to have to start getting your **** together before you post.

You need to better tailor your responses.

Bronco Yoda
11-10-2009, 10:14 PM
It's a work in progress so I'm holding pat. But a work towards WHAT.... I'm still trying to figure out.

Popps
11-10-2009, 10:33 PM
I made no predictions and certainly none that covered every scenario (http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showpost.php?p=2451199&postcount=29). Talk about embarassing. I even provided proof to you previously when you asked for it. Apparently you have conveniently forgotten that or you are lying. Again, talk about embarrassing.

Wow, Lex... not only did the link you posted NOT include a 3-13 "prediction," but it once again confirmed my position that record would not be as important as seeing our structure come together this year, which it has.

I said we won 7 last year, and we'd win a couple more, or a couple less. But, that a win total wasn't the issue this season... progress was.

Poor guy. This just hasn't worked out for you, huh. You wanted us to fail. We didn't. Now you're just resorting to lying and embarrassing yourself.

Nothing new. Poor little attention whore.

Better luck next time!

strafen
11-10-2009, 10:34 PM
Cincinnati made the Ravens D look sad. Anyone catch how they did it?
Here's a hint - stretching the field by throwing downfield opened up the running game
We've got to keep defenses from crowding the line on us. It's not that hard to figure out why our running game can't get going people!

Taco John
11-10-2009, 10:39 PM
It's a work in progress so I'm holding pat. But a work towards WHAT.... I'm still trying to figure out.


As far as I can tell, Knowshon Moreno gets us about the same thing that Mike Anderson got us (not first year, 15 TD Mike Anderson, but second year, 4 TD Mike Anderson). It certainly isn't great, but it's not necessarily bad - Mike Anderson had two stellar seasons for us. But what we're seeing out of Knowshon is not the kind of thing that we have come to expect from highly touted first round pick runners. If this were Shanahan's system, Moreno would have been considered a bust by now (fair or not).

But I think that you bring up a good point about this being a work in progress. We're definitely moving in a different direction as far as the running back position goes. This is no longer going to be a cut back style running game. It's more of a straight forward, run at the defense style of running game. I'm not yet convinced that Moreno is that type of back. I made the comparison to Stephen Alexander last night. That's the kind of guy I see Moreno more as, and IMO, that kind of guy needs a lead blocker. But the Erhardt-Perkins offensive system doesn't typically employ a lead blocker, so I'm curious to see how McDaniels addresses this situation.

hambone13
11-10-2009, 10:43 PM
It's not taboo. C'mon Taco.

We haven't been able to stretch a defense or run the ball effectively pretty much all season.

Moreno, Buckhalter and the OL have the ability to do so. The difference lies in the fact that Orton is not and will never be a game changing QB.

I think that was very evident with how Big Ben was able to rally his team, espcially after that drive they put together after the fumble return.

The reason people focus on Orton is because he just flat out doesn't have the talent to lead this team. The RB's and OL on this team have the ability, but I think it's more of Ortons faults by not being able to stretch the D deep that hurts the running game and not the other way around.

I've read hundreds of your posts but this is spot on. Previous to this, In my eyes you were the enemy but this is true. Thanks.

hambone13
11-10-2009, 10:47 PM
Orton Gets Nervous. If you make him move he plays absolutely terrible. The Run Game sucks the interior is terrible. Haynesworth is going to use hamilton to clean the orton out of the grass sunday.

This. Orton sucks on the run. Frankly, it looks like he's going to be on the run a lot more now....when he's runnin' he's suck'n.

cutthemdown
11-10-2009, 10:49 PM
Obviously because Cutler gone Orton here. The focus on the QB to get ball moving.

hambone13
11-10-2009, 10:50 PM
Man, I get nothing but crap every time I mention it. Moreno is not a third down back. He's just not.

Maybe he will be someday, but right now, he's just not. He reminds me of Stephen Alexander. He looks like a lazy runner who doesn't have that "fall forward" instinct that picks up extra yards after contact.

He could end up with an impressive career, but right now, he's not giving us what we need.

IMHO Moreno runs a lot harder than Alexander, lazy bitch that he is. On the other hand I think Moreno runs as hard as any back in the league. Our O-Line is trying to transition into a pocket...that's not Bronco's running style. The two can NOT go hand in hand.

hambone13
11-10-2009, 10:51 PM
ZBS baby...use Turner. That's all I have to say.

Blueflame
11-11-2009, 12:07 AM
Why do opposing defenses load up to stop the run when playing the Raiders? It's because they do not respect the passing game. JaMarcus Russell is too inconsistent and they have inexperienced/sucky WRs. So... the offense is already one-dimensional. Stopping the run/challenging JaMarcus to beat them through the air (he hasn't established the idea that he is capable of doing this) is a wise defensive strategy.

Same concept goes for Orton, especially with Harris injured. They know we aren't likely to go long... so crowding the LOS is a no-brainer. Teams will keep doing it until we can find a way to make them pay dearly for it.

Popps
11-11-2009, 12:13 AM
IMHO Moreno runs a lot harder than Alexander, lazy b**** that he is. On the other hand I think Moreno runs as hard as any back in the league. Our O-Line is trying to transition into a pocket...that's not Bronco's running style. The two can NOT go hand in hand.

Yea, Moreno runs hard. That's not the problem. His only problem is that he's a rookie, and he needs to take better care of the ball.

His other problem is that he's not as quick to the hole as Buckhalter. So, you've got to actually be able to hold blocks and open up a lane for a guy like this. If you do, he'll plow over people and around people. If not, he'll be met in the backfield, as he often seems to be.

atomicbloke
11-11-2009, 01:44 AM
OK, i'll explain.

Peyton probably runs a 4.4/4.5. Knowshon timed at a 4.6. Hillis is 6'1" 250, Knowshon is 5'11", 215.

Hillis has the best hands on a HB/FB that i've ever seen outside of Marshall Faulk. No joke. He's got great hands.

He plays fullback and has done so at a high level since college at run heavy Arkansas where he blocked for McFadden and Felix Jones.

Finally, PEYTON Hillis hits the hole with authority and when there is no hole, he makes one. When it's 3rd and 1, he picks up 1st downs.

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When Knowshon runs on 3rd and 1, he gets tackled in the backfield by a defensive linemen who's being blocked.

This offense needs a hammer who can set a tempo. Our backs now aren't doing it.

Wow... that video made me nostalgic about the good old days when we had a scary offense.... if Hillis hadn't gotten injured on a freak play versus the KC, I think we would have gone deep in the playoffs.....

Hillis was a beast to bring down.... he consistently got 4-5 yards on 1st down, which made defending against Hillis and Cutler a nightmare... remember the Jets game?

I do feel the Hillis injury was the real turning point for the Denver Broncos.....

fontaine
11-11-2009, 02:43 AM
ZBS baby...use Turner. That's all I have to say.

That's what I want also.

Sometimes you've got to admit you don't have the players to run a type of scheme and the interior of our OL can't run block right now.

We could keep stubbornly sticking to the same 2/3 yards and a cloud of dust or go back to a ZB oriented approach which would in the least cut down on the mistakes made in the interior and actually incorporate guys like Kuper/Clady a lot better.

Almost all of our big runs early this season from Buckhalter came on ZB plays. Go back to that please McD.

Punisher
11-11-2009, 05:04 AM
Safetys are playing closer in the box because Orton can't throw down the filed, if we had a QB that can spread the filed we can open up the running game.

fontaine
11-11-2009, 07:36 AM
Safetys are playing closer in the box because Orton can't throw down the filed, if we had a QB that can spread the filed we can open up the running game.

Well that's true, but at this point you have to ask yourself this question:

What's more likely to happen?

1. Orton to blossom into a QB that can fire the ball 25-30 yards down the field?

or

2. We go back to running ZBS plays that can be designed so that guys like Hamilton/Weigman go downfield as blockers to take out those extra defenders?

Defenses stacking against the run isn't anything new for Denver.

We countered it for years when we used Hamilton/Nalen's mobility to get to the LBers and block them out.

Now all the OL get blocked up along the LOS because the interior isn't strong enough to power block with 320+ pound DTs.

Just to give you an example, against Baltimore Lewis was patrolling the middle with total freedom to attack the RBs and shut down the short passing lanes.

A couple of years ago when we actually beat Baltimore, Lepsis and Nalen took turns in the running game to beat the crap out of him because the run plays were designed to put that mobile OL out in front of the RB.

Ray Lewis spent the next day complaining openly to the media that the DL isn't doing it's job.

lex
11-11-2009, 07:50 AM
Wow, Lex... not only did the link you posted NOT include a 3-13 "prediction," but it once again confirmed my position that record would not be as important as seeing our structure come together this year, which it has.

Youre actually drawing the line between 4-12 and 3-13? LOL. Is there really a difference? Come on, now!

I said we won 7 last year, and we'd win a couple more, or a couple less. But, that a win total wasn't the issue this season... progress was.

Winning most certainly is and was the issue. Youre fooling yourself. Maybe you were willing to give Josh a pass no matter what but youre fooling yourself if you dont think winning was integral to his acceptance. Everyone knows youd be willing to move to Guyana and kill your kids if he asked you to. The fact that you try to get out infront of stuff is amusing.

Poor guy. This just hasn't worked out for you, huh. You wanted us to fail. We didn't. Now you're just resorting to lying and embarrassing yourself.

Actually, several times I said he had better win and win fast. I also said who do you want our next coach to be because I knew it tweaked guys like you who were trying to apologize in advance for 4-12.

Nothing new. Poor little attention whore.

Attention whore? Really? Not at all. When Denver lost, Shanahan received criticism. Same with McDaniels. Its no different whats fair is fair. Josh has also received praise, but again, whats fair is fair. I realize this hurts your feelings but its how it is.

Better luck next time!

Better luck with what? Throwing it in your face that you said a lot of different things? Better luck saying, praise and criticism cuts both ways? Ha.


In bold.

oubronco
11-11-2009, 07:52 AM
Cincinnati made the Ravens D look sad. Anyone catch how they did it?
Here's a hint - stretching the field by throwing downfield opened up the running game
We've got to keep defenses from crowding the line on us. It's not that hard to figure out why our running game can't get going people!

you'll never get that point across around here

lex
11-11-2009, 07:55 AM
you'll never get that point across around here

He has a valid point but you also need time for that and since Orton doesnt deal with pressure that well, practically a pristine pocket. It also doesnt hurt that Carson Palmer has an excellent passer rating on passes thrown downfield.

WolfpackGuy
11-11-2009, 07:56 AM
Deep pass? What's that?

oubronco
11-11-2009, 08:03 AM
OK, i'll explain.

Peyton probably runs a 4.4/4.5. Knowshon timed at a 4.6. Hillis is 6'1" 250, Knowshon is 5'11", 215.

Hillis has the best hands on a HB/FB that i've ever seen outside of Marshall Faulk. No joke. He's got great hands.

He plays fullback and has done so at a high level since college at run heavy Arkansas where he blocked for McFadden and Felix Jones.

Finally, PEYTON Hillis hits the hole with authority and when there is no hole, he makes one. When it's 3rd and 1, he picks up 1st downs.

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When Knowshon runs on 3rd and 1, he gets tackled in the backfield by a defensive linemen who's being blocked.

This offense needs a hammer who can set a tempo. Our backs now aren't doing it.

After watching this video it just boggles the mind that McD can't see how Hillis would be the best option on short yardage the guy is just a BEAST

TonyR
11-11-2009, 08:10 AM
I even provided proof to you...

Where in the provided link does he predict 3 wins? I don't see any predictions in that post, just a comment that 4-5 wins and/or 8-9 wins are both possible. So you need to come up with a different spin because your current one is complete garbage.

TonyR
11-11-2009, 08:16 AM
...I think we would have gone deep in the playoffs.....


Come on, that team wasn't winning a playoff game. Just a reminder that we got killed at home by the Raiders with Hillis in the lineup.

As I've said before, I would like to see Hillis get some touches. But he's not the miracle cure for what ails this offense.

strafen
11-11-2009, 08:16 AM
He has a valid point but you also need time for that and since Orton doesnt deal with pressure that well, practically a pristine pocket. It also doesnt hurt that Carson Palmer has an excellent passer rating on passes thrown downfield.And that's exactly my point. Orton is having a negative effect on the whole offense.
It's because of him that we're at the bottom part of the rankings in scoring TD's both rushing and passing.

lex
11-11-2009, 08:19 AM
Where in the provided link does he predict 3 wins? I don't see any predictions in that post, just a comment that 4-5 wins and/or 8-9 wins are both possible. So you need to come up with a different spin because your current one is complete garbage.

LOL

Whats going on with Bill Simmons?

TonyR
11-11-2009, 08:23 AM
Whats going on with Bill Simmons?

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/15/books/bestseller/besthardnonfiction.html?_r=1&ref=bestseller

lex
11-11-2009, 08:26 AM
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/15/books/bestseller/besthardnonfiction.html?_r=1&ref=bestseller



Awesome. Before long, youll be citing the book verbatim.

BTW, in case you couldnt tell, that was a rhetorical question. LOL

TonyR
11-11-2009, 08:31 AM
Awesome.

Hey lex, are me and the ESPN baseball analysts still clueless for saying the Yankees were better than the Phillies? Or did the Phillies win in your alternate reality?

And please tell us again how Popps predicted the Broncos would go 3-13.

lex
11-11-2009, 08:45 AM
hey lex, are me and the espn baseball analysts still clueless for saying the yankees were better than the phillies? Or did the phillies win in your alternate reality?

and please tell us again how popps predicted the broncos would go 3-13.



rif

Lolad
11-11-2009, 09:17 AM
After watching this video it just boggles the mind that McD can't see how Hillis would be the best option on short yardage the guy is just a BEAST

What that video shows me is the trap block isn't working as effective as cut blocking on the backside of the ball. On our trap plays the lineman is getting blown up in the backfield into the ball carrier.

elsid13
11-11-2009, 09:29 AM
I wonder if Torain is healed yet.

NFLBRONCO
11-11-2009, 12:30 PM
Both are crap but, when a QB only throws 15 yds and in. Your asking a small interior line not named Nalen and Stinky two HOF guys block all those guys around LOS to open holes. I'd never confuse NE system as a juggernot running the football anyways.