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rugbythug
11-09-2009, 08:42 PM
How much longer. If Kern and JMFW can go for sub-par play how long till Ben Goes. Teams are picking on him. I know he was the center of the Future but He is not playing like we were used too. The OL used to be the foundation of the Team but now can not get any push in the Run game and Orton lacks real time. Not that that really helped. He starts getting antsy around one thousand two.

elsid13
11-10-2009, 02:44 AM
After watching the game, it pretty apparent that left hamstring that caused him to miss time at the beginning of the year, is still an issue. Hamilton is not bending enough to get under the DE/DT pads and isn't shuffling his feet in pass protection. With Hamilton if his techinque isn't good, then he struggles to be effective and that what we are seeing

watermock
11-10-2009, 02:56 AM
He's not the future since 2001. He's a converted center that has played on par with Nalen.

He's done.

Bronco Yoda
11-10-2009, 03:10 AM
His size plus going away from the ZBS already dictated his future to be short. But the way he's playing now could get him pulled right now.

Traveler
11-10-2009, 03:31 AM
His size plus going away from the ZBS already dictated his future to be short. But the way he's playing now could get him pulled right now.

This is the problem. Our OL is built for the ZBS. Since they are transitioning away from it, Hamilton and Wiegmann are getting steam rolled since they aren't the physical type need for McDaniels system. Losing Harris also hurts big time. I don't see Hamilton being on this team next season.

watermock
11-10-2009, 03:32 AM
Again, then why not draft a stud OG early rather than some stiff TE?

Bronco Yoda
11-10-2009, 03:39 AM
It probably wouldn't be such a problem if were were gradually transitioning like we all thought they would. We've just plain switched overnight to trap and pull blocking and thrown ZBS out the window. It's clear as day what's wrong here.

You have to play with the players you have. And the players on our O-line were built for moving and cutting.

watermock
11-10-2009, 03:40 AM
We drafted Quinn and 2 other light OL, ione was cut. One is a center.

WTF?

When you look at our draft, it's a a joke!, considering we has THREE 1's

3 #1's.

Moreno, Ayers and Smith.

AND we had 2 #3''s.

Don't forget it.

watermock
11-10-2009, 03:42 AM
It probably wouldn't be such a problem if were were gradually transitioning like we all thought they would. We've just plain switched overnight to trap and pull blocking and thrown ZBS out the window. It's clear as day what's wrong here.

You have to play with the players you have. And the players on our O-line were built for moving and cutting.


I fully expect both Turner and Dennison to leave once shanny is hired.

Bronco Yoda
11-10-2009, 03:46 AM
I agree.

barryr
11-10-2009, 05:27 AM
Olsen is not a center and is like 305-310 lbs, so he has at least 20 pounds on Hamilton, so hardly light, not that facts seem too interesting to some.

tsiguy96
11-10-2009, 05:30 AM
We drafted Quinn and 2 other light OL, ione was cut. One is a center.

WTF?

When you look at our draft, it's a a joke!, considering we has THREE 1's

3 #1's.

Moreno, Ayers and Smith.

AND we had 2 #3''s.

Don't forget it.

seriously quit being a god damn baby and harping on the quinn pick all day, who the **** cares if a pick we made isnt on the field right now, seriously. its one draft pick, we traded 2 3's for a 2 and a 4, calm the **** down and quit reverting to 3-13 preseason mock.

Cmac821
11-10-2009, 05:31 AM
I hate Ben Hamilton at the moment, he looks like he is on skates. CUT HIM!

tsiguy96
11-10-2009, 05:37 AM
fyi, kupers dad said ben hamiltons dad posts here anonymously.

chex
11-10-2009, 05:38 AM
It probably wouldn't be such a problem if were were gradually transitioning like we all thought they would. We've just plain switched overnight to trap and pull blocking and thrown ZBS out the window. It's clear as day what's wrong here.

You have to play with the players you have. And the players on our O-line were built for moving and cutting.

McDaniels is installing his own offense and schemes. He's not going to play one way one year, then another way the next. Thats not how to build a program. He's had exactly one offseason to bring his own guys in, and you can't turn over a roster entirely in one year. I'm sure many more new faces will be here opening day 2010. It takes time to build a winning program. This isn't Madden where you can trade for all great players.

fontaine
11-10-2009, 05:40 AM
It probably wouldn't be such a problem if were were gradually transitioning like we all thought they would. We've just plain switched overnight to trap and pull blocking and thrown ZBS out the window. It's clear as day what's wrong here.

You have to play with the players you have. And the players on our O-line were built for moving and cutting.

Pretty much. I've been saying for weeks that McDaniels only seems to revert to ZBS as a last resort when the running game clearly doesn't work. And even then it looks like he prefers to throw those short passes instead.

Orton wasn't forced into passing the ball 30+ times because we were behind, that only happened much later. Even in the first half we were exclusively passing the ball instead of running it when the game was close.

Why draft spend a high first and reach for another blocking TE when you're not going to run the ball? Just plain stupid by McDaniels here.

lex
11-10-2009, 05:47 AM
McDaniels is installing his own offense and schemes. He's not going to play one way one year, then another way the next. Thats not how to build a program. He's had exactly one offseason to bring his own guys in, and you can't turn over a roster entirely in one year. I'm sure many more new faces will be here opening day 2010. It takes time to build a winning program. This isn't Madden where you can trade for all great players.

Actually, McDaniels expressed a desire to do both zone blocking and conventional man blocking during the whole offseason. There was information that he wanted to do it in New England but didnt have the personnel for it. So, why he ignores the ZBS to this degree is puzzling.

Rabb
11-10-2009, 05:48 AM
I was telling my buddy before the game that Hamilton will cost us at least a couple plays

my fave might be the 4th down penalty

RaiderH8r
11-10-2009, 05:49 AM
For such a student of the game I would think the fact that no system had produced a high quality running game as consistantly as the Shanahan/Gibbs ZBS would grab his attention. For such a student of the game I would think he would want to put his blockers and his running back in the best positions to succeed because as a student of the game he would recognize that being one dimensional on offense is a lead pipe lock to losing. And as such a student of the game he would recognize his OL personnel is best suited for a ZB system. As a student of the game...

fontaine
11-10-2009, 05:52 AM
McDaniels is installing his own offense and schemes. He's not going to play one way one year, then another way the next. Thats not how to build a program. He's had exactly one offseason to bring his own guys in, and you can't turn over a roster entirely in one year. I'm sure many more new faces will be here opening day 2010. It takes time to build a winning program. This isn't Madden where you can trade for all great players.

Almost every team in the league plays some ZBS plays so, in short, you're pretty much wrong there.

Atlanta/Oakland went into the ZBS in one offseason and pretty much improved their running game tremendously so again, when it comes to the running game you're wrong there again.

Look everyone who knows anything about the Patriots offense knows that they would rather pass the ball short than run it. They'll run it also but it's not how their offense was built.

I like what McDaniels has done with our short passing game, I really do. But it's come at the cost of a much worse running game. It's not about the personnel, or turnover etc. It's about McDaniels calling the plays he wants to call.

He gets the credit (and rightly so) for improving Orton and parts of the D, just like he looks stupid making Orton pass the ball two times more than we run it, the past two weeks.

barryr
11-10-2009, 05:54 AM
I would like to seee Royal run more than these 5 yard patterns though. His speed means nothing if just running a short pattern right into defenders.

TonyR
11-10-2009, 05:58 AM
...calm the **** down and quit reverting to 3-13 preseason mock.

He's in his glory. He's barely posted all season and after a couple of bad losses the gibberish is flowing again.

lex
11-10-2009, 06:02 AM
After watching the game, it pretty apparent that left hamstring that caused him to miss time at the beginning of the year, is still an issue. Hamilton is not bending enough to get under the DE/DT pads and isn't shuffling his feet in pass protection. With Hamilton if his techinque isn't good, then he struggles to be effective and that what we are seeing

A lot is really not making sense right now. What you say about Hamilton being limited by injury might make sense in terms of limiting what they can do in ZBS. But, on the other hand, you also have Seth Olsen who was drafted as a ZBS guy, which they apparently are/were high on.

Your observation actually makes a lot of sense in trying to reconcile why they would be ignoring the ZBS to the degree they have but then it raises the question, why is Hamilton still in there?

fontaine
11-10-2009, 06:04 AM
And just on Hamilton, he didn't get down to 280lbs over night.

Why would any coach think he can succeed in the power blocking game instead of a ZBS where he's excelled every year in his career?

It's like asking Brian Dawkins to become a CB in man coverage.

chex
11-10-2009, 06:04 AM
Almost every team in the league plays some ZBS plays so, in short, you're pretty much wrong there.

Atlanta/Oakland went into the ZBS in one offseason and pretty much improved their running game tremendously so again, when it comes to the running game you're wrong there again.

Look everyone who knows anything about the Patriots offense knows that they would rather pass the ball short than run it. They'll run it also but it's not how their offense was built.

I like what McDaniels has done with our short passing game, I really do. But it's come at the cost of a much worse running game. It's not about the personnel, or turnover etc. It's about McDaniels calling the plays he wants to call.

He gets the credit (and rightly so) for improving Orton and parts of the D, just like he looks stupid making Orton pass the ball two times more than we run it, the past two weeks.

I never mentioned anything about any other teams, so you're wrong there.

I don't care what other teams run. Why do you?

McDaniels will have this line bulked up quite a bit before it's all said and done. Ultimately, his running offense will be something we aren't accustomed to seeing in Denver, and he's not going to compromise any vision he has for the short term. If he wants to run ZBS at times, so be it, but he's not going to run his offense like he's Mike Shanahan.

And I'm not sure why you even mentioned OAK in this conversation. I looked it up just to see, and they are ranked 26th in rushing offense, so I'm not sure what point you were trying to make with them.

lex
11-10-2009, 06:08 AM
And just on Hamilton, he didn't get down to 280lbs over night.

Why would any coach think he can succeed in the power blocking game instead of a ZBS where he's excelled every year in his career?

It's like asking Brian Dawkins to become a CB in man coverage.

Read El Sids post on the first page. If his hamstring injury has hampered his mobility, that takes away his effectiveness in the ZBS. The question then arises, why is he in there at all if thats the case. Allegedly, theyre high on Olsen but you have to wonder how good Olsen is if Hamilton can be this bad and still be trotted out there.

I think ultimately, the theme here is that Guard is undervalued when you consider how important that piece of real estate is. Also, if you want OL who do both, you need OL with the skill set to do both and that generally means taking one higher in the draft.

lex
11-10-2009, 06:09 AM
I never mentioned anything about any other teams, so you're wrong there.

I don't care what other teams run. Why do you?

McDaniels will have this line bulked up quite a bit before it's all said and done. Ultimately, his running offense will be something we aren't accustomed to seeing in Denver, and he's not going to compromise any vision he has for the short term. If he wants to run ZBS at times, so be it, but he's not going to run his offense like he's Mike Shanahan.

And I'm not sure why you even mentioned OAK in this conversation. I looked it up just to see, and they are ranked 26th in rushing offense, so I'm not sure what point you were trying to make with them.

Once again, McDaniels has expressed a desire to do both.

fontaine
11-10-2009, 06:18 AM
I never mentioned anything about any other teams, so you're wrong there.

I don't care what other teams run. Why do you?

McDaniels will have this line bulked up quite a bit before it's all said and done. Ultimately, his running offense will be something we aren't accustomed to seeing in Denver, and he's not going to compromise any vision he has for the short term. If he wants to run ZBS at times, so be it, but he's not going to run his offense like he's Mike Shanahan.

And I'm not sure why you even mentioned OAK in this conversation. I looked it up just to see, and they are ranked 26th in rushing offense, so I'm not sure what point you were trying to make with them.

McDaniels said he's going to run some of both, so yeah you should care because like I said almost every team in the league does a bit of both and right now they're doing it a lot better than Denver.

Is that simple enough?

chex
11-10-2009, 06:23 AM
McDaniels said he's going to run some of both, so yeah you should care because like I said almost every team in the league does a bit of both and right now they're doing it a lot better than Denver.

Is that simple enough?

No, not when you point to OAK as an example.

fontaine
11-10-2009, 06:48 AM
No, not when you point to OAK as an example.

Actually Oakland are a pretty good example because they face Defenses stacked against the run also in a similar schedule to ours.

Even with a much worse passing game Denver and Oakland are pretty much the same in rushing TDs (4), rushing First down % (19%) and rushing big plays.

Oh except Oakland do a much better job in the power running game.

All with less talent along the OL (they signed our ZBS castoffs), against defense that don't have to respect the passing offense at all.

Yeah, Denver is transitioning, it takes time, etc etc.

None of that excuses the FACTS:
1. Our running game was perennially awesome with ZBS plays.
2. We have a QB that needs as much help as we can give him.
3. We have a couple of undersized OL that aren't built for another scheme.

Just because McDaniels wants to transition out of it, doesn't make him right especially when New England isn't a team you want to model you're running game after.

Garcia Bronco
11-10-2009, 06:59 AM
Hmailton got owned all night followed closely by Casey...and Kuper had a few gafts as well. Polumbus played badly as well on the right side. It's why two guys were there to tackle our backs every time.

Lolad
11-10-2009, 07:14 AM
Our Lineman were getting knocked back behind the LOS on the trap plays. We need to run more plays to the outside. Going inside is NOT working... it hasn't happened all season.

meangene
11-10-2009, 07:21 AM
McDaniels is installing his own offense and schemes. He's not going to play one way one year, then another way the next. Thats not how to build a program. He's had exactly one offseason to bring his own guys in, and you can't turn over a roster entirely in one year. I'm sure many more new faces will be here opening day 2010. It takes time to build a winning program. This isn't Madden where you can trade for all great players.

This. Josh did a great job of rebuilding this roster. I'm sure he was hoping Hamilton and Weigman could make the transition, or at least perform adequately for a year. Remember, there was no rush to re-sign Weigman. Clearly, they are getting owned and Hamilton is a huge liability. Next week would be a good week to make a move to Hochstein at center and Olsen at guard. This is the first weak opponent we have had in weeks. Clearly, teams have figured out how to stuff this offense. Don't know what we can do about Orton's inability to throw deep other than take a few shots just to show we can. Maybe if we can develop a running game, that will be more successful.

elsid13
11-10-2009, 09:30 AM
A lot is really not making sense right now. What you say about Hamilton being limited by injury might make sense in terms of limiting what they can do in ZBS. But, on the other hand, you also have Seth Olsen who was drafted as a ZBS guy, which they apparently are/were high on.

Your observation actually makes a lot of sense in trying to reconcile why they would be ignoring the ZBS to the degree they have but then it raises the question, why is Hamilton still in there?

Because he still better then what they have on the bench. Dennison is pretty darn smart about oline, and I give him the benefit of the doubt.

And for everyone else we did run ZBS last night, but both backs are dancing vs hitting the hole. Moreno is just as much of the problem as the OL when comes to running the ball.

HEAV
11-10-2009, 09:47 AM
Yup Hamilton is done. Kaylore always mentioned to me that Hamilton has trouble against bigger DL, but this year it's any DL! Hamilton isn't big or strong enough to handle bullrush and he no longer had the quicks to make pull blocks.

He's more a dive cut blocker and that's not going to work here anymore. I'm not just baising this off the Steeler game. Last week I sat down and watch the all the games this year (fast fowarding to the offensive plays) and I noticed Hamilton was being beaten in everygame. It's just now he's getting worse! As long as he's starting the running game will suffer, and the pressure on Kyly will increase.

UberBroncoMan
11-10-2009, 09:52 AM
So anyone know why we traded Chris Meyers to the Texans again?

HEAV
11-10-2009, 10:01 AM
So anyone know why we traded Chris Meyers to the Texans again?

Chris Myers wouldn't fit either. He's around 290 and in the Hamilton clone.

Look at the starters for Ravens, Steelers and Patriots all are over 300 and still mobile to move and pull block.

Again this team is still in transition and the O-line is going to be revamped in the offseason.

55CrushEm
11-10-2009, 10:03 AM
Next week would be a good week to make a move to Hochstein at center and Olsen at guard. This is the first weak opponent we have had in weeks.

Agreed. We need to try out Olsen at LG......now.

Broncos_OTM
11-10-2009, 11:51 AM
Again, then why not draft a stud OG early rather than some stiff TE?

Because Center is a bigger need IMO. We could/can move Kuper to LG and put olsen in at RG it really depends on how well Olsen is absorbing everything. Casey also needs replaced so i would take a center before a G.

broncocalijohn
11-10-2009, 11:57 AM
Actually, McDaniels expressed a desire to do both zone blocking and conventional man blocking during the whole offseason. There was information that he wanted to do it in New England but didnt have the personnel for it. So, why he ignores the ZBS to this degree is puzzling.

I think Mock had a good arguement about drafting Quinn if he wanted to step aside on the ZOne blocking. We need interior beef, not a blocking TE to help us. Graham is already doing a good job on blocking and can catch. Maybe McDaniels wanted a two TE set? Speaking of blocking, when are our two running backs going to learn how to do it?

Old Dude
11-10-2009, 03:08 PM
Lots of good points on this thread.