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azbroncfan
11-03-2009, 05:59 PM
It's pretty clear to me that it was Paul Brown, Sid Gilman and Bill Walsh. There is one poster here who honestly thinks it was LaVell Edwards and Virgil Carter because Carter did well playing in Walsh's system. Sure BYU coaches had some influence under Walsh but BYU's passing game was a lot of shotgun and was more like Texas Tech runs now.

All factors considered, the birth of the West Coast offense started with the legendary Paul Brown, from whom Walsh worked for in Cincinnati, and the offensive genius Sid Gillman. Gillman made his mark in 10 seasons with the San Diego Chargers, leading them to five championship appearances. http://football.calsci.com/WCOHistory2.html

Broncobiv
11-03-2009, 06:10 PM
I don't know, but here's what Wikipedia has to say about it!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_coast_offense

Just to save anyone who wants to look the 15 seconds it'd take to find that page themselves.

Mogulseeker
11-03-2009, 07:11 PM
I though conventional wisdom was that it was with Walsh in San Francisco.

Bronco Warrior
11-03-2009, 07:26 PM
It's pretty clear to me that it was Paul Brown, Sid Gilman and Bill Walsh. There is one poster here who honestly thinks it was LaVell Edwards and Virgil Carter because Carter did well playing in Walsh's system. Sure BYU coaches had some influence under Walsh but BYU's passing game was a lot of shotgun and was more like Texas Tech runs now.

All factors considered, the birth of the West Coast offense started with the legendary Paul Brown, from whom Walsh worked for in Cincinnati, and the offensive genius Sid Gillman. Gillman made his mark in 10 seasons with the San Diego Chargers, leading them to five championship appearances. http://football.calsci.com/WCOHistory2.html

How pathetic! Get your ass kicked on the facts so you have to get the gang to try to back you up! Nice call on the TTU thing thought since Mike Leach is a LaVell Edwards disciple. Edwards originated both the core concepts of the West Coast ('66 as BYU OC, and his QB WAS Virgil Carter..Walsh's first QB as OC in Cinci) ~ and later the Spread offense.

LaVell Edwards (born October 11, 1930 in Orem, Utah) is a former American football coach of Brigham Young University (BYU). In 1984, Edwards' BYU Cougars went 130 and won the national championship. He is considered the founder of the spread formation passing attack, and one of the most influential and innovative minds in college football history
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LaVell_Edwards

The core concepts were developed in the mid '60's at BYU and it's funny that most of the successfull "West Coast" coaches that have had success with it learned it first at BYU (Holmgren, Reid, Billick, Chow). It is interesting to note that Chow and Sarkesian both ex BYU players and coaches are the last two USC OC's (Sark is now at Washington as HC and coaching up Locker) and the current one is Jeremy Bates a Shanny pupil.

This article was written for a trojan USC page and is an interview with Chow who played for and was the BYU OC from the early days with Edwards.

As Coach Edwards indicates the BYU offense actually got its start in the mid 1960s when LaVell Edwards was offensive coordinator and Virgil Carter was his quarterback. Virgil was the first in a long string of BYU QBs to set passing records and move onto the NFL. In an amazing twist of fate Virgil Carter was drafted by the Chicago Bears but eventually wound up in Cincinnati with Bill Walsh as his offensive coordinator. Virgil could not throw a very deep ball so Walsh was forced to concentrate on what Virgil could do well - throw shorter timed routes like he had at BYU. Later on at San Francisco Walsh also recruited Mike Holmgren the QB coach at BYU from 1982-85 to join his staff on the 49ers.
Don't miss Edwards own words about the Concept of the BYU offense..it reads like a "West Coast" textbook!
http://www.trojanfootballanalysis.com/wp/wordpress/?p=178

Edwards coached prominent quarterbacks such as Gary Scheide, Gifford Nielsen, Marc Wilson, Jim McMahon, Steve Young, Robbie Bosco, Ty Detmer, Steve Sarkisian, and Brandon Doman.

Will we all believe 40 yrs from now that Miami invented the "Wild Cat" just because nobody bothers to reject the koolaid and research the truth?

PS Edit:The Spread is a variation or evolution of the "Wasatch Front Offense Ha!" that Edwards developed later on. BYU's Offenses have been universally credited as being the first "Pro Style" offense in College Football even by later revisionists!

elsid13
11-03-2009, 07:29 PM
I though conventional wisdom was that it was with Walsh in San Francisco.

Walsh was OC in Cincinnati, under Brown, when he first developed the basic ideas and plays behind the West Coast Offense. Walsh was running Gillman's system but had to heavy modify for QB, who didn't have the arm to make the deep throws. When Walsh didn't get the Cincinnati job, he took the system with him to SF, were the media started to call it the West Coast Offense.

Soul-Bronco
11-03-2009, 07:31 PM
How pathetic! Get your ass kicked on the facts so you have to get the gang to try to back you up! Nice call on the TTU thing thought since Mike Leach is a LaVell Edwards disciple. Edwards originated both the core concepts of the West Coast ('66 as BYU OC, and his QB WAS Virgil Carter..Walsh's first QB as OC in Cinci) and the Spread offense.

LaVell Edwards (born October 11, 1930 in Orem, Utah) is a former American football coach of Brigham Young University (BYU). In 1984, Edwards' BYU Cougars went 130 and won the national championship. He is considered the founder of the spread formation passing attack, and one of the most influential and innovative minds in college football history
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LaVell_Edwards

The core concepts were developed in the mid '60's at BYU and it's funny that most of the successfull "West Coast" coaches that have had success with it learned it first at BYU (Holmgren, Reid, Billick, Chow). It is interesting to note that Chow and Sarkesian both ex BYU players and coaches are the last two USC OC's (Sark is now at Washington as HC and coaching up Locker) and the current one is Jeremy Bates a Shanny pupil.

This article was written for a trojan USC page and is an interview with Chow who played for and was the BYU OC from the early days with Edwards.

As Coach Edwards indicates the BYU offense actually got its start in the mid 1960s when LaVell Edwards was offensive coordinator and Virgil Carter was his quarterback. Virgil was the first in a long string of BYU QBs to set passing records and move onto the NFL. In an amazing twist of fate Virgil Carter was drafted by the Chicago Bears but eventually wound up in Cincinnati with Bill Walsh as his offensive coordinator. Virgil could not throw a very deep ball so Walsh was forced to concentrate on what Virgil could do well - throw shorter timed routes like he had at BYU. Later on at San Francisco Walsh also recruited Mike Holmgren the QB coach at BYU from 1982-85 to join his staff on the 49ers.
Don't miss Edwards own words about the Concept of the BYU offense..it reads like a "West Coast" textbook!
http://www.trojanfootballanalysis.com/wp/wordpress/?p=178

Edwards coached prominent quarterbacks such as Gary Scheide, Gifford Nielsen, Marc Wilson, Jim McMahon, Steve Young, Robbie Bosco, Ty Detmer, Steve Sarkisian, and Brandon Doman.

Will we all believe 40 yrs from now that Miami invented the "Wild Cat" just because nobody bothers to reject the koolaid and research the truth?

PS Edit:The Spread is a variation or evolution of the "Wasatch Front Offense Ha!" that Edwards developed later on. BYU's Offenses have been universally credited as being the first "Pro Style" offense in College Football even by later revisionists!

Like all the research and truth you put into the thread that lives in the butt right?

Bronco Warrior
11-03-2009, 07:41 PM
Like all the research and truth you put into the thread that lives in the butt right?

Facts are facts: and Walsh was with Gillman in SD After Cinci and Starting the Walsh offense. Guess who was a QB for Gillman and Walsh in SD?? You guessed it Virgil "BYU" Carter signed by SD in '75.

And yes I lived it first (Red Shirted for BYU in '84 etc) and the research bears it out.
I learned the "WEST COAST" passing route tree in pop warner in the early 70's. Do you think it trickled down the 1,000 miles from an obscure Ohio Oc in three years, or fifty miles from a top College coach in 8? Don't be afraid to let logic be a factor in your answer!

Soul-Bronco
11-03-2009, 07:45 PM
Facts are facts: and Walsh was with Gillman in SD After Cinci and Starting the Walsh offense. Guess who was a QB for Gillman and Walsh in SD?? You guessed it Virgil "BYU" Carter signed by SD in '75.

And yes I lived it first (Red Shirted for BYU in '84 etc) and the research bears it out.
I learned the "WEST COAST" passing route tree in pop warner in the early 70's. Do you think it tricked down the 1000 miles from an obscure Ohio Oc in three years, or fifty miles from a top College coach in 8? Don't be afraid to let logic be a factor in your answer!

still no answer to the original question. And please stop with all the self promotion you do on a daily basis . no one wants to hear the 99 . 9 percent BS that is typed by you. and that is a fact.

Like going to BYU was such a high praise. Its the 70's dude. your like the guy from napoleon dynamite. Back in high school i could of won state if coach would of took me off the pine. . . . . I can throw a football over them mountains

Bronco Warrior
11-03-2009, 07:52 PM
still no answer to the original question. And please stop with all the self promotion you do on a daily basis . no one wants to hear the 99 . 9 percent BS that is typed by you. and that is a fact.

Like going to BYU was such a high praise. Its the 70's dude. your like the guy from napoleon dynamite. Back in high school i could of won state if coach would of took me off the pine. . . . . I can throw a football over them mountains

Nothing I SAID in any other thread about my background is untrue, just blown out of purportion by others like yourself. The only point you might be able to make is that practicing against Holmgren's QBs at BYU, and attending and later working Football Camps put on by Edwards, Billick, Reid and others "Doesn't actually count as being mentored by those guys". I could conceid that to be a matter of interpretation, but when your Brother in Law's (Ryan Schmidt) Dad is the BYU DC for two decades you do get some perks including the chance to get a shot at BYU, and hang around their coaches.

PS EDIT: The only reason BYU is relevent is 1- the true origins of what became the "WCO" and 2- the quality coaching that came from EDWARDS and BYU. The BYU Coaching tree is deeper and more impressive than the great Walsh's ever though of being (HE drew from BYU because they already understood the offense), and yes I'm biased in saying that!

Soul-Bronco
11-03-2009, 07:56 PM
Nothing I SAID in any other thread about my background is untrue, just blown out of purportion by others like yourself. The only point you might be able to make is that practicing against Holmgren's QBs at BYU, and attending and later working Football Camps put on by Edwards, Billick, Reid and others "Doesn't actually count as being mentored by those guys". I could conceid that to be a matter of interpretation, but when your Brother in Law's (Ryan Schmidt) Dad is the BYU DC for two decades you do get some perks including the chance to get a shot at BYU, and hang around their coaches.

ok dude keep living in your delusions in the 70's with you cousins brothers mom's next door neighbor

Bronx33
11-03-2009, 07:57 PM
Please for the love of god don't rat**** another thread BW dude why start a post with (How pathetic! Get your ass kicked on the facts) ? did the original thread maker shoot your dog or kick your sister in the face? simply posting the correct info would have been enough.

Pony Boy
11-03-2009, 08:15 PM
The real fathers of the WCO are Sid Gillman and Don Coryell who coached the San Diego Chargers and the San Diego State Aztecs, respectively, both in the early 1960s. They were the first coaches to use the passing game to open up the run. Forget all of the formations Gillman and Coryell used, forget their sets and forget their Xs and Os. Thats where most of the confusion arises.
The WCO is a generic term describing a set of passing plays designed to facilitate the running game, and not the other way around. Put another way, its a philosophy of coaching a strategic offense that emphasizes the passing game. In the early 60's, its defining moments occurred in San Diego, California -- which is located on the west coast. Any offshoot of the WCO, a passing game that seeks ball control, is best described by the offensive coordinator or coach who developed it. Thats where the Xs and Os come into play, a prime source of confusion. So we have the Walsh offense, the Turner offense, Urban Meyers spread offense, and so on, all of them followers of Gillmans and Coryells WCO philosophy.

http://www.4malamute.com/pioneerswco.html

Xenos
11-03-2009, 08:22 PM
The true WCO was born with Gillman and Coryell. The WCO we know now is actually nothing like the original, but rather a misnomer due to the fact that Walsh's system was in the west coast. At least that's what I remember reading.

Soul-Bronco
11-03-2009, 08:24 PM
The true WCO was born with Gillman and Coryell. The WCO we know now is actually nothing like the original, but rather a misnomer due to the fact that Walsh's system was in the west coast. At least that's what I remember reading.

dont worry, BW wont respond to real facts

rovolution
11-03-2009, 08:31 PM
in Cincinatti with Paul Brown. Bill Walsh was Brown's o-coordinator with the Bengals


Ken Anderson was the first true West Coast quarterback

Bronco Warrior
11-03-2009, 08:34 PM
ok dude keep living in your delusions in the 70's with you cousins brothers mom's next door neighbor

Wake me up when you come up with anything new other than being a mindless irrelevant flamer!

Soul-Bronco
11-03-2009, 08:41 PM
Wake me up when you come up with anything new other than being a mindless irrelevant flamer!

lol are you sad now? did i make a 44 year old man cry. . . . . . . . . . napoleon i swear i can still throw a football over them mountains

lets see if you respond to the facts two people just busted you on above. Hilarious!

Rohirrim
11-03-2009, 08:41 PM
On the West Coast?

Bronco Warrior
11-03-2009, 08:48 PM
in Cincinatti with Paul Brown. Bill Walsh was Brown's o-coordinator with the Bengals


Ken Anderson was the first true West Coast quarterback

Not quite true! Carter was the starter when Walsh took over as OC and he needed a System that he could succeed in..the one that he had made his college career and name in, the BYU offense!

".........eventually wound up in Cincinnati with Bill Walsh as his offensive coordinator. Virgil could not throw a very deep ball so Walsh was forced to concentrate on what Virgil could do well - throw shorter timed routes like he had at BYU. Later on at San Francisco Walsh also recruited Mike Holmgren the QB coach at BYU from 1982-85 to join his staff on the 49ers."
http://www.trojanfootballanalysis.com/wp/wordpress/?p=178

Bronco Rob
11-03-2009, 08:55 PM
West Coast Offense: Air Coryell

Kosar used the term to describe the offense formalized by Sid Gillman with the AFL Chargers in the 1960s and later by Don Coryell's St. Louis Cardinals and Chargers in the 1970s and 1980s. Al Davis, an assistant under Gillman, also carried his version to the Oakland Raiders, where his successors John Rauch, John Madden, and Tom Flores continued to employ and expand upon its basic principles. This is the "West Coast Offense" as Kosar originally used the term. However, it is now commonly referred to as the "Air Coryell" timed system, and the term West Coast Offense is usually instead used to describe Bill Walsh's system.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Coast_offense


:thumbsup:

Bronco Warrior
11-03-2009, 08:59 PM
lol are you sad now? did i make a 44 year old man cry. . . . . . . . . . napoleon i swear i can still throw a football over them mountains

lets see if you respond to the facts two people just busted you on above. Hilarious!

Busted?"" With propoganda and BS? Not hardly!
FACT: BYU and EDWARDS ran the core of the WEST COAST as early as '66 with a QB named Vigil Carter!

FACT: Vigil Carter was the Starting QB for Walsh when he became the OC at Cinci!

FACT: Walsh looked for and found a system that suited his QB- Carter_ by copying the system that made him most successful..when? AT BYU!

Fact: '66 is before '69!

Fact: Holmgren, Billick, Reid, Chow, (and by extention their coaching trees) All learned the "West Coast" from Edwards and not Walsh.

Fact: Repeating a lie or misconception over and over does not make it true no matter how much one wants it to, or how many people buy into it!

None of these things can be disputed by the eevidence or the truth.

Tell me again about getting busted by "Facts"?

Bronco Warrior
11-03-2009, 09:04 PM
West Coast Offense: Air Coryell

Kosar used the term to describe the offense formalized by Sid Gillman with the AFL Chargers in the 1960s and later by Don Coryell's St. Louis Cardinals and Chargers in the 1970s and 1980s. Al Davis, an assistant under Gillman, also carried his version to the Oakland Raiders, where his successors John Rauch, John Madden, and Tom Flores continued to employ and expand upon its basic principles. This is the "West Coast Offense" as Kosar originally used the term. However, it is now commonly referred to as the "Air Coryell" timed system, and the term West Coast Offense is usually instead used to describe Bill Walsh's system.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Coast_offense


:thumbsup:

"Air Coryell" didn't actually evolve into it's own untill after Walsh and Gillman were at SD and wasn't really a force until Fouts came along. There were fundamental differences that were later refined in the mid 70's when the two styles of Coryell and Walsh blended. For the record when Walsh went to SD so did Virgil Carter. Why?

HEAV
11-03-2009, 09:08 PM
Bill Walsh in Natti was stuck with Virgil Carter a decent runner QB with a limited arm. He also had a poor por O-line and was worried that they couldn't control the ball/clock running the game.

So Bill installed a quick passing and movable pocket offense that allowed the QB to roll away from pressure and made a 5 yard pass just as good as a 5 yard run. It was about the high percentage completion pass.

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/uTnsWWfgml0&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/uTnsWWfgml0&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

It was Walsh's plan, It was his offense. Best coach ever in my my opinion.

Bronco Warrior
11-03-2009, 09:09 PM
Popular opinion and even the history books claimed for over 500 years that Columbus "discovered America". That "belief" turned out to be no more true than the "Walsh one" The truth isn't always the popular story!

anthonypacino
11-03-2009, 09:10 PM
Both coaches began coaching HS and College in the State of Ohio, Woody Hayes, Sid Gillman and Paul Brown all attended Ohio St and roomed at the same frat house. Miami of Ohio had Paul Brown, Sid Gillman, Woody Hayes, Weeb Ewbank, Earl "Red" Blaik, Ara Parseghian, Bill Arnsparger and Bo Schembelcher. I would have to say that the State of Ohio is where the spark of what we would now call the WCO was born

Bronco Warrior
11-03-2009, 09:30 PM
Bill Walsh in Natti was stuck with Virgil Carter a decent runner QB with a limited arm. He also had a poor por O-line and was worried that they couldn't control the ball/clock running the game.

So Bill installed a quick passing and movable pocket offense that allowed the QB to roll away from pressure and made a 5 yard pass just as good as a 5 yard run. It was about the high percentage completion pass.

<EMBED height=344 type=application/x-shockwave-flash width=425 src=http://www.youtube.com/v/uTnsWWfgml0&hl=en&fs=1& allowfullscreen="true" allowscriptaccess="always"></EMBED>

It was Walsh's plan, It was his offense. Best coach ever in my my opinion.

Dispute one core fact: Carter had run the offense in question years earlier in college at BYU, where he was a all-american and had taken BYU to it's first of dozens of WAC champoinships. The success under that system was the reason he was drafted from a relatively unsuccessfull program (at the time) in the first place!
Seriously does logic dictate that Walsh would pull a system magically out of his ass for his weak armed BYU QB or more likely that he would say "Hmmm...why the hell was this guy so successful in college and not so in the standard Pro Offense, and then emulate what HAD ALREADY GIVEN CARTER the ability to SUCCEED?. For the record Carter was drafted by Chicago and then when he didn't work out for them was traded two years later to Cinci..was replaced by Anderson after two years as a starter, went to the WFL Chicago FIRE (Who actually ran something close to a West Coast) then was signed by San Diego to rejoin Walsh with the Chargers, and then traded back to Chicago in 75 where he retired after the following year. What is the common thread? Vigil Carter and BYU.
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/C/CartVi00.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virgil_Carter
PS: correction Carter was traded to Cinci in 70 not 69 and 70 was the year walsh started trying to figure out what to do with him.

BossChief
11-03-2009, 09:40 PM
Warning, this is plagiarized but is from a very smart football guy at another site about the wco :




I like talking about offense smile.gif anyway, Redd that's some good info you mentioned and I've read about some of it but, still don't totally agree about some of your ideas about the WCO. I'm not saying your wrong because there is a lot of info out there and, you know more about Parcells and Giants than I do. You no doubt have been watching football longer than me also.

From my understanding and, from what I've read, the term "West Coast offense" came from a sportswriter who misunderstood Bernie Kosar in a interview. Kosar - who was a backup with the 90's Cowboys at the time - said they ran the same offense like on the west coast meaning, the old San Diego Super Chargers.

The Sportswriter - Dr Z I believe - for some reason equated this to being the offense ran by Bill Walsh but, from what I've read Kosar was talking about the old Coryell system. The term WCO has stuck ever since when describing Walsh's system and, Dr Z has never owned up to that mistake or misunderstanding.

My theory is, the 90's Cowboys offense was so dominating that Zimmerman assumed it had to be the system created by Walsh.

Having said that, I'm no expert and am going by only what I've read or watched on TV. My fascination with the Air Coryell system isn't because of the old Chargers (although they're cool). My facination is because of teams like the 90's Cowboys and Joe Gibbs (who was Coryell's OC in SD) old Redskin teams. My admiration for this offense only intensified when the Chiefs ran it under Vermiel and Saunders.

From what I understand they are two totally different systems.

BossChief
11-03-2009, 09:42 PM
Heres some more from the conversation about this same subject:


Again, the systems are predicated on throwing the ball. That is the common ground. I say this in reference to the pro set systems b4 the WCO -which goes back to '60's NFL football. B4 this type offense, it was what you'd call the "3 yards and a cloud of dust" offenses of pro that only threw the ball when they knew the opposing d was stacked at the line from so many runs.

A lot has been made of the Paul Brown/WCO but it really is only that b4 Brown came along, there was very little in the way of offense besides running it. Brown revolutionized the game with playcalling that was relayed into the huddle via subs. I know we've discussed this b4 and I don't want to make it sound elementary, but it really does come down to a few small adjustments Brown made plus Sid Gilman's timing routes and then Walsh's tweaks after that. Walsh began his tweaks to "run by pass, effectively" as he said.


Sid Gillman, along with Paul Brown, basically invented modern football. Bill Walsh left his stamp, but he was largely just making systematic what those two had already created.

Here's two links:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Coast_offense
http://smartfootball.blogspot.com/2009/04/sid-gillman-father-of-modern-passing.html

bowtown
11-03-2009, 09:58 PM
Winger?

Edit: On second thought, maybe Steppenwolf.

HEAV
11-03-2009, 10:03 PM
Winger?

Edit: On second thought, maybe Steppenwolf.

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;D

azbroncfan
11-03-2009, 10:48 PM
How pathetic! Get your ass kicked on the facts so you have to get the gang to try to back you up! Nice call on the TTU thing thought since Mike Leach is a LaVell Edwards disciple. Edwards originated both the core concepts of the West Coast ('66 as BYU OC, and his QB WAS Virgil Carter..Walsh's first QB as OC in Cinci) ~ and later the Spread offense.

LaVell Edwards (born October 11, 1930 in Orem, Utah) is a former American football coach of Brigham Young University (BYU). In 1984, Edwards' BYU Cougars went 130 and won the national championship. He is considered the founder of the spread formation passing attack, and one of the most influential and innovative minds in college football history
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LaVell_Edwards

The core concepts were developed in the mid '60's at BYU and it's funny that most of the successfull "West Coast" coaches that have had success with it learned it first at BYU (Holmgren, Reid, Billick, Chow). It is interesting to note that Chow and Sarkesian both ex BYU players and coaches are the last two USC OC's (Sark is now at Washington as HC and coaching up Locker) and the current one is Jeremy Bates a Shanny pupil.

This article was written for a trojan USC page and is an interview with Chow who played for and was the BYU OC from the early days with Edwards.

As Coach Edwards indicates the BYU offense actually got its start in the mid 1960s when LaVell Edwards was offensive coordinator and Virgil Carter was his quarterback. Virgil was the first in a long string of BYU QBs to set passing records and move onto the NFL. In an amazing twist of fate Virgil Carter was drafted by the Chicago Bears but eventually wound up in Cincinnati with Bill Walsh as his offensive coordinator. Virgil could not throw a very deep ball so Walsh was forced to concentrate on what Virgil could do well - throw shorter timed routes like he had at BYU. Later on at San Francisco Walsh also recruited Mike Holmgren the QB coach at BYU from 1982-85 to join his staff on the 49ers.
Don't miss Edwards own words about the Concept of the BYU offense..it reads like a "West Coast" textbook!
http://www.trojanfootballanalysis.com/wp/wordpress/?p=178

Edwards coached prominent quarterbacks such as Gary Scheide, Gifford Nielsen, Marc Wilson, Jim McMahon, Steve Young, Robbie Bosco, Ty Detmer, Steve Sarkisian, and Brandon Doman.

Will we all believe 40 yrs from now that Miami invented the "Wild Cat" just because nobody bothers to reject the koolaid and research the truth?

PS Edit:The Spread is a variation or evolution of the "Wasatch Front Offense Ha!" that Edwards developed later on. BYU's Offenses have been universally credited as being the first "Pro Style" offense in College Football even by later revisionists!

You the dumb F&^K that can only post one article that says Walsh used Virgil in his system and quit posting in the other thread when you got your a## handed to you. Any research you do points right to Brown and Gillman. BYU ran the spread out of shotgun and didn't use the slants and crossing routes that WCO Walsh made famous. You are worthless to argue with and there is a reason no one likes you. Now why don't you go cheer some old mans falling death loser.

azbroncfan
11-03-2009, 10:51 PM
PS: correction Carter was traded to Cinci in 70 not 69 and 70 was the year walsh started trying to figure out what to do with him.

So your saying Walsh invented the WCO to fit Virgil or Virgil invented it because he had week arm and played at BYU?

Bronco Warrior
11-03-2009, 10:55 PM
So your saying Walsh invented the WCO to fit Virgil or Virgil invented it because he had week arm and played at BYU?

I had the year he went to Cinci off one. See heav's video post. It confirms Carter was the Cinci QB as I said and that the Offense was designed for Carter. Love the name-calling...really adds to your arguement as week as it is! If you had payed attention I quoted many articles and factual records. Keep up!

Bronco Warrior
11-03-2009, 10:56 PM
Dispute one core fact: Carter had run the offense in question years earlier in college at BYU, where he was a all-american and had taken BYU to it's first of dozens of WAC champoinships. The success under that system was the reason he was drafted from a relatively unsuccessfull program (at the time) in the first place!
Seriously does logic dictate that Walsh would pull a system magically out of his ass for his weak armed BYU QB or more likely that he would say "Hmmm...why the hell was this guy so successful in college and not so in the standard Pro Offense, and then emulate what HAD ALREADY GIVEN CARTER the ability to SUCCEED?. For the record Carter was drafted by Chicago and then when he didn't work out for them was traded two years later to Cinci..was replaced by Anderson after two years as a starter, went to the WFL Chicago FIRE (Who actually ran something close to a West Coast) then was signed by San Diego to rejoin Walsh with the Chargers, and then traded back to Chicago in 75 where he retired after the following year. What is the common thread? Vigil Carter and BYU.
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/C/CartVi00.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virgil_Carter
PS: correction Carter was traded to Cinci in 70 not 69 and 70 was the year walsh started trying to figure out what to do with him.

Reposted for AZ

Bronco Warrior
11-03-2009, 10:58 PM
Bill Walsh in Natti was stuck with Virgil Carter a decent runner QB with a limited arm. He also had a poor por O-line and was worried that they couldn't control the ball/clock running the game. So Bill installed a quick passing and movable pocket offense that allowed the QB to roll away from pressure and made a 5 yard pass just as good as a 5 yard run. It was about the high percentage completion pass.

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It was Walsh's plan, It was his offense. Best coach ever in my my opinion.

This last part is the only incorrect part of this post.

Bronco Warrior
11-03-2009, 11:03 PM
You the dumb F&^K that can only post one article that says Walsh used Virgil in his system and quit posting in the other thread when you got your a## handed to you. Any research you do points right to Brown and Gillman. BYU ran the spread out of shotgun and didn't use the slants and crossing routes that WCO Walsh made famous. You are worthless to argue with and there is a reason no one likes you. Now why don't you go cheer some old mans falling death loser.

You would have to have had a fact or a point that was valid to hand anybody thier ass let alone mine when you are owned. I stopped posting cause it was oFf topic and you were pathitic enough to start this one when you got asswhipped in PM.

And I don't care if anybody me in here LIKES me, it's not a club or a popularity forum it's a football forum! You calling me names because you are butthurt and being a crybaby doesn't effect myself or the facts but keep it up since that's all you've got! ;)

Kaylore
11-03-2009, 11:46 PM
It's true genesis occurred In BYU legend LaVell Edwards. Any discussion on the WCO begins with this man.

Kaylore
11-03-2009, 11:48 PM
You the dumb F&^K that can only post one article that says Walsh used Virgil in his system and quit posting in the other thread when you got your a## handed to you. Any research you do points right to Brown and Gillman. BYU ran the spread out of shotgun and didn't use the slants and crossing routes that WCO Walsh made famous. You are worthless to argue with and there is a reason no one likes you. Now why don't you go cheer some old mans falling death loser.

It's true that Edwards never ran what the West Coast offense would become, but really no one would. The concepts of short passes from three wide and a back is very Edwards. I think saying "Edwards invented the WCO" is wrong, but to deny his influence on it would be wrong too.

Bronco Warrior
11-04-2009, 12:03 AM
It's true that Edwards never ran what the West Coast offense would become, but really no one would. The concepts of short passes from three wide and a back is very Edwards. I think saying "Edwards invented the WCO" is wrong, but to deny his influence on it would be wrong too.

Amen.... My Contention is that Walsh used a BYU Format to utilize a BYU QB and that was the Roots of what evolved into his West Coast. Say Walsh is a genius fror Inventing the WCO is like saying Tony Sparano (sp?) at Miami is the one who invented te Wild Cat! You could say it but it wouldn't make it true, but 40 years from know most people will believe it.

Kaylore
11-04-2009, 12:07 AM
No HEAV got it right. Football is always borrowed ideas but the guy that puts it all together gets the credit. Paul Brown and LaVell didn't invent the WCO offense, Bill Walsh did. They certainly brought concepts to the game of football and Walsh learned directly aspects he liked and applied them to his own system, but that system is his own.

azbroncfan
11-04-2009, 12:20 AM
You would have to have had a fact or a point that was valid to hand anybody thier ass let alone mine when you are owned. I stopped posting cause it was oFf topic and you were pathitic enough to start this one when you got asswhipped in PM.

And I don't care if anybody me in here LIKES me, it's not a club or a popularity forum it's a football forum! You calling me names because you are butthurt and being a crybaby doesn't effect myself or the facts but keep it up since that's all you've got! ;)

Your just a dumb F4ck that doesn't know when to quit. I grew up in the Edwards era in Utah Valley and his offense's resembled nothing to the Walsh WCO. You would have to be a moron, like you are, to say the birth of the WCO was in Provo. You can only post one freaking post about Walsh using Carter as his QB. Did anyone even agree with you?

azbroncfan
11-04-2009, 12:21 AM
No HEAV got it right. Football is always borrowed ideas but the guy that puts it all together gets the credit. Paul Brown and LaVell didn't invent the WCO offense, Bill Walsh did. They certainly brought concepts to the game of football and Walsh learned directly aspects he liked and applied them to his own system, but that system is his own.

Yeah I agreed that Edwards had some influence and similar concepts but all I was doing was pointing out DumbFU#$S post that the WCO's birthplace was BYU.

HEAV
11-04-2009, 02:06 AM
No HEAV got it right. Football is always borrowed ideas but the guy that puts it all together gets the credit. Paul Brown and LaVell didn't invent the WCO offense, Bill Walsh did. They certainly brought concepts to the game of football and Walsh learned directly aspects he liked and applied them to his own system, but that system is his own.

Yup yup.

Bill Walsh took what he learned from Paul Brown and others and refined the offense to make it more about passing to open the running game.

Where as in many offensive game plans you run to set up the pass. The main thing that made the West Coast Walsh's was him rolling the QB out of the pocket and not having the guy stand back there and get pummeled.



It's just kinda like today when people use the term "Patriot Offense". You hear it in the media "Oh the Broncos, Browns, Irish use thePatriot Offense"

It's like ok...we get it the Pats run the offense that has won Super Bowls and former coach's under Belichick are using it now. The offense was created by two former patriot coach's Ron Erhardt & Ray Perkins back in the 70's so I guess you can tie in the Patriot term to it there... It still comes out as the Belichick/Charlie Weis "Patriot" offense and not the Perkins & Erhardt Patriot offense.

But Belichick & Weis learned the Offense from Parcells who worked under both Perkins and Erhardt.

The West coast label got tied to the 49ers and Walsh and the "Patriots" offense is now tied to the current Patriots.

Remember when the Buffalo Bills ran the hurry-up shotgun and it got labeled the K-Gun under Jim Kelly? It's just a way that media & fans could identify a system. Run & Shoot will always bring to mind Warren Moon and the Oilers.

But yes Bill Walsh put together the West Coast offense.


---------

On a side note. The guys that voted Cutler.... :spit: That's classic ass:clown:

JJJ
11-04-2009, 03:46 AM
Sid Gillman. End of story.

The Joker
11-04-2009, 06:12 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7oVzHm_S0-A

CEH
11-04-2009, 07:28 AM
Sid Gillman. End of story.

Further evidence of the genius of Gillman and Francis (Shut-the-Gates-of-Mercy) Schmidt at Ohio State.


The real West Coast offense

Click here for more on this story
Posted: Friday October 29, 1999 07:19 PM
Paul Zimmerman




When you get old, you get cranky, and lots of things bug you -- things that might seem insignificant to others. I get nasty when I read (or hear), "Everyone must do their own..." Singular antecedent. EveryONE must do his or her...

I go absolutely wild when I hear some TV yutz remarking (and they all say it), "There's lots of ways." Huh? There is ways? Are English teachers listening to this?

But that's kid stuff compared to the way I feel about the term "West Coast Offense." I've belabored the subject many times before. But here it comes again, this time keyed by a very interesting conversation I had the other day with the current darling of the offensive coordinator set, St. Louis' Mike Martz, who has put together the NFL's most dynamic attack. We talked about the Real West Coast Offense, the one he coaches.

There are three practitioners of the Real West Coast Offense, three men whose roots go right back to the beginning -- to Sid Gillman of the San Diego Chargers in the 1960s, and before him, Francis (Shut-the-Gates-of-Mercy) Schmidt at Ohio State.

The current trio is composed of Martz, whose offense ranks second in the NFL; Washington's head coach and offensive coordinator Norv Turner , whose attack ranks first, six total yards ahead of Martz's offense; and Ernie Zampese, whose Patriots attack ranks No. 5 in the NFL in yardage. There is a very strong connection here, and it goes back to Gillman.

"I was a San Diego high school kid in those days," Martz says. "I used to love to sit in old Balboa Stadium and watch Gillman's offense at work. I mean, it was just so great to look at -- Lance Alworth and Gary Garrison, and John Hadl throwing the ball all over the place. Paul Lowe and Keith Lincoln running. It was an awesome experience."

It was a beautiful offense that had everything going for it. At times it reached unheard-of levels, such as the 610 yards the Chargers put up when they murdered Boston in the 1963 AFL Championship. Push the ball downfield, work the seams, hit the receiver on the break. Everything timed to the max, every step carefully charted, receivers and QB all working together. And a punishing ground game to back it up.

No one could coach offensive football like Gillman did in the '60s. He said the seeds of his offense were sown when he was a graduate assistant on the 1934 Ohio State staff, working under Shut-the-Gates-of-Mercy Schmidt (so named because he took delight in running up big scores).

But San Diego had another hotshot coach in those days, Don Coryell, working across town at San Diego State, building a succession of fancy records with prospects who'd either slipped through the cracks at USC and UCLA or had been rejected by them. Coryell and his staff were frequent visitors at Gillman's pre-season camp. They loved his offense. They absorbed a lot of it, although Coryell added wrinkles of his own. Two bright young assistants on Coryell's San Diego State staff were Joe Gibbs and Zampese.

Gibbs took the offense with him to the Redskins, adding innovations such as the Bunch -- three wideouts bunched together, darting off into confusing patterns -- and the two- and three-tight end alignments, when he wanted to go to maximum protection. Zampese took it with him to the L.A. Rams, where he eventually became offensive coach. Turner worked under Zampese in L.A., absorbed the Zampese-Coryell-Gillman offense and then took it with him to Dallas, where he became offensive coordinator on Jimmy Johnson's Super Bowl teams. His Cowboys attack looked a lot like Gillman's did, especially the emphasis on absolutely perfect timing between Troy Aikman and his receivers.

Once, in 1993, I talked to a backup Miami quarterback named Hugh Millen, who'd been in the Dallas camp earlier that season.

"I can't believe the things the receivers get away with here," he said, "the sloppy way they run their routes. They'd never get away with it under Norv. If he told them to run their break at seven yards, that was it, not a foot more or less, because that's where the ball was going to be. And if they wouldn't, he'd get somebody who would."

Turner took the offense with him to Washington. For two years his quarterback coach was Martz, who had worked under him -- and Zampese -- on the Rams. And that's the link that binds these three offensive coaches whose systems are having such success right now. This is the bloodline of the Real West Coast Offense.

How did the term get its name? From Bernie Kosar, when he was a backup quarterback with Dallas in '93. I was doing a piece on the Cowboys. I asked him what the offense was like.

"Oh, you know, the West Coast Offense," he said. "Turner and Zampese and Don Coryell and Sid Gillman. That thing." (Bernie obviously had a good knowledge of NFL history).

I used the quote. It was picked up by a West Coast wire reporter, except that he got it screwed up and he attached it to the San Francisco attack that Bill Walsh had used in San Francisco's Super Bowl run of the '80s. What the hell -- San Diego, L.A., San Francisco -- it's all West Coast, isn't it? And that's where it stuck.

At first Walsh was quite upset by the misnomer. "Call it the Walsh Offense, or the Cincinnati Offense," he said, "but not the West Coast Offense. That's something completely different."

Walsh's concept came about in 1970, when he was offensive coach with the Bengals. The year before he had had one of the great rookie quarterbacks in NFL history, Greg Cook, a big, strongarmed kid who could also throw with touch. In 1969 Cook averaged 18 yards per completion, a mark that never has been approached since. The attack was long-ball, obviously. Even the tight ends got downfield. Bob Trumpy, Cook's No. 1 target, averaged 22.6 yards a catch, an unheard-of number for tight ends. Trumpy's backup, Chip Myers --Walsh often used two tight ends at once -- averaged 20.6. Even rookie Bruce Coslet, the third man in the rotation, got into the act, recording 39 yards on his one catch.

Then Cook went down with a shoulder injury. His career was finished. In came Virgil Carter in 1970 -- smaller, agile, quick-thinking. Carter was able to go through his progressions quickly and throw on the go; not blessed with a big arm, but accurate. So Walsh crafted an offense to suit him, a horizontal offense with a lot of motion and underneath routes and breakoff patterns, an attack that now goes by the misnomer "West Coast Offense."

Once I asked Walsh what his system would have been like if he'd had Cook for 10 or 12 years. "Completely different," he said. "It would have been down the field."

So he was annoyed at first when his offense was misnamed, but after a while, as it kept gaining more and more notoriety, he just shrugged. What the hell?

Which brings us back to Mike Martz and the Real West Coast Offense, as practiced with much success in St.Louis and Washington and New England.

"I couldn't have had two better mentors than Ernie and Norv," Martz said the other day. "We talk all the time. Ernie's the guy who really expanded the system, who put a twist on it. He kept finding different ways to get guys the ball, off different formations. But certain basic principles still apply.

"It's such a timing-oriented system. You want to get the ball downfield, yes, but you want to get it out quickly, and the timing portion is critical. There are no shades of gray. You've got to run in and out of your breaks -- boom, like that -- and you've got to be exactly where you're supposed to be."

I congratulated him on the trade that brought in running back Marshall Faulk, who, in the last two weeks, has supplied a nice change of pace to an offense that was beginning to look one-dimensional in favor of the pass.

"That's another thing that's critical to the system," Martz says. "Power running. You've got to be able to run the ball when you go to a three-wide receiver set, and you've got to run with power. By that I mean behind zone blocking, which is a big departure from the San Francisco system. Theirs was man-blocking, with a lot of cut-blocks and misdirection. Ours is straight power. Not many people realize this, but if we hadn't have gotten Marshall we were prepared to go with another excellent zone-blocking runner, Robert Holcombe. It takes a certain type, a guy who can run with power, who's good at picking his way through. Stephen Davis is doing that in Washington now, and that's a big reason why their offense is so good. Terry Allen 's starting to come around in New England.

"The good thing about zone-block running is that you can keep pounding away. You don't have the negative yardage plays."

I asked him whether he'd ever, in his younger days, talked offensive football with Gillman or Coryell or Zampese, before he joined his staff.

"Gillman?" he said. "Oh no, I was just a kid then and he was a God. I met Coryell a few times but I was too shy to talk football with him. When I was an assistant at Arizona State (1983-91) I used to go over and watch Ernie's system with the Rams, but it was too complicated for me to grasp. I admired it, but I didn't understand it. Believe me, I was very thankful when I got a chance to work with him."

And so are the high-flying Rams, St. Louis variety.

Bronco Rob
11-04-2009, 07:42 AM
Sid Gillman, along with Paul Brown, basically invented modern football. Bill Walsh left his stamp, but he was largely just making systematic what those two had already created.

Here's two links:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Coast_offense
http://smartfootball.blogspot.com/2009/04/sid-gillman-father-of-modern-passing.html




:thumbs:

bowtown
11-04-2009, 08:51 AM
I mentored all of them.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
11-04-2009, 09:28 AM
Worst thread ever? Worst thread ever.

Bronco Rob
11-04-2009, 09:36 AM
Worst thread ever? Worst thread ever.


CORRECTION:

1.) http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=80685

2.) http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=68720





:thumbsup:

azbroncfan
11-04-2009, 09:41 AM
Worst thread ever? Worst thread ever.

You would probably rather have a suck Cutler off thread or Kyle Orton sucks thread right?

Rohirrim
11-04-2009, 09:47 AM
Further evidence of the genius of Gillman and Francis (Shut-the-Gates-of-Mercy) Schmidt at Ohio State.


.


Great read. Thanks. :thumbs:

TheElusiveKyleOrton
11-04-2009, 09:54 AM
You would probably rather have a suck Cutler off thread or Kyle Orton sucks thread right?

No, actually, I'd rather have neither. I'd also rather have threads that weren't created with the purpose to start a flame war with another person.

But hey, that's just me. I'll be sure to sign you up for the next "Suck Cutler Off" thread, dumb ****.

azbroncfan
11-04-2009, 10:02 AM
No, actually, I'd rather have neither. I'd also rather have threads that weren't created with the purpose to start a flame war with another person.

But hey, that's just me. I'll be sure to sign you up for the next "Suck Cutler Off" thread, dumb ****.

If you don't like it you don't have to open it or post in it right?

I call BS on your above. Here is about 6 Cutler threads started from you and two flame threads started by you. There is one Orton thread to but you don't like any of it I see.

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/search.php?searchid=353218

TheElusiveKyleOrton
11-04-2009, 10:26 AM
If you don't like it you don't have to open it or post in it right?

I call BS on your above. Here is about 6 Cutler threads started from you and two flame threads started by you. There is one Orton thread to but you don't like any of it I see.

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/search.php?searchid=353218

interesting.

http://img524.imageshack.us/img524/4166/stupidaz.png

try again.

By the way, I'm not entirely sure why you're attacking me. BW is obviously the problem child in your little relationship. perhaps you should take a xanax and chill out.

Bronco Warrior
11-04-2009, 01:43 PM
A key element of the "West Coast" is the terminology, the Route tree and the "*comeback routes", All of which were first used under Edwards! I learned the passing tree in 3rd grade Pee Wee football in 73-4. You think my coach got it from Cinci 1,500 miles away after only 3 year of Walsh or 50 miles away where he had played for Edwards for 4 years?

Walsh said himself that if it wasn't for Carter his offense would have been traditional down the field and power run football. Brown had never run anything close to it, and gillman and Air coryell where down the field mulitole WR sets, not short iming routes.
He also admits on every related story that he looked at what Carter had done well and why AT BYU!!!

** Seperation is achieved from the coverage by "coming back" towards the QB ie Hooks, a Square out/in that is less than 90 degrees etc. The rumor that BYU didn't use slants or crossing patterns is total BUL****. a slant is a 1 on the tree, Also Edwards developed the swing pass and the screen. Screen is a "0"

the XYZ assignment was Edwards also. XYZ in say 989 is a 1st receiver Fly or Jet, 2nd receiver- X- TE or 2nd receiver on 2 wr set left runs a deep flag, the 3rd receiver Z-is on a fly or jet. the running "holes" were assigned too. the first play I ever learned was a 32 power, 242 hold- on two, on two ready break! LMAO!!

JJJ
11-04-2009, 01:51 PM
Warning, this is plagiarized but is from a very smart football guy at another site about the wco :




I like talking about offense smile.gif anyway, Redd that's some good info you mentioned and I've read about some of it but, still don't totally agree about some of your ideas about the WCO. I'm not saying your wrong because there is a lot of info out there and, you know more about Parcells and Giants than I do. You no doubt have been watching football longer than me also.

From my understanding and, from what I've read, the term "West Coast offense" came from a sportswriter who misunderstood Bernie Kosar in a interview. Kosar - who was a backup with the 90's Cowboys at the time - said they ran the same offense like on the west coast meaning, the old San Diego Super Chargers.

The Sportswriter - Dr Z I believe - for some reason equated this to being the offense ran by Bill Walsh but, from what I've read Kosar was talking about the old Coryell system. The term WCO has stuck ever since when describing Walsh's system and, Dr Z has never owned up to that mistake or misunderstanding.

My theory is, the 90's Cowboys offense was so dominating that Zimmerman assumed it had to be the system created by Walsh.

Having said that, I'm no expert and am going by only what I've read or watched on TV. My fascination with the Air Coryell system isn't because of the old Chargers (although they're cool). My facination is because of teams like the 90's Cowboys and Joe Gibbs (who was Coryell's OC in SD) old Redskin teams. My admiration for this offense only intensified when the Chiefs ran it under Vermiel and Saunders.

From what I understand they are two totally different systems.

We invented the coolest offense on the planet but still have only one lousy AFL championship to show for it. Arrggghhh.

All those other fellers down stream have reaped the benefits. 10+ Superbowl wins with the bloody thing. Tough being a Bolt fan.

Bronco Warrior
11-04-2009, 02:22 PM
"Air Coryell" an Gillman's system wasn't anything like the misnamed "West Coast" offense..it was just 80% passing mostly medium and Deep passes...the whole point of passing till Edwards and BYU came along. When Walsh got to SD he brought what he had stoemn fronm BYU for his QB Virgil Carter, and also V. Carter in '75.
THe misconception here is that ALL AFL teams tried to distinguish themselves from the NFL by playing a more wide open passing oriented game, but it was still conservative compared to the NFL as it stands today. Carters 360 plus PA in '71 was unherd of and 222,600 yards is what made pepole take notice first of Walsh's new (Stolen) system, Also gawdy was the 8.6 YPA, and the passing efficiency. When walsh went to SD they also wanted their own Gaffney and Jordan, a Guy who already knew the system they were putting in. Once that happened, and they had the system down they traded him back to Chicago who had drafted him..lol! Walsh was only able to have so much influence on Coryell who still loved the long ball (So do chicks) but could appreciate the ball control, and efficiency of "Walsh" system. Coryell might have been the first hybridization of the System that Edwards made. Every team uses an element of what Edwards designed and Walsh brought to the NFL. Even Billick, Reid and Holmgren who learned playing abd coaching at BYU only run a "Version" of the original. the terms, numbering system (Any Numbering system) and the backs receiving, passing tree etc goes directly back the Edwards, the genius of BYU!

To further fan the FLAMERS: Edwards also invented the "Spread" later on..that is really not that much diferent than the "WCO" but uses more shotgun and deep passses LOL

Bronco Warrior
11-04-2009, 02:39 PM
Seriously, I should define that there is a difference in the Spread option and the spread pass formation offense. Spread option is Myer, Alex Smith, Utah to Florida, and the BYU Norm Chow 4-5Receivers, 0-1 backs and lots of shotgun, also run among dozens of others now, by Edwards/BYU disciple Mike LEach at TTU...although the spread option just runs adds in the Option QB element, a running QB whisch guys like STEVE YOUNG also excelled in at BYU. Young was the driving force behind the evolution from the "Wasatch Front Offense" to the Spread, so I guess both variation and the WCO owe their origind to LaVell LMAO!

azbroncfan
11-04-2009, 05:28 PM
The "West Coast offense" is not a single offense. BYU and the 49ers actually did not share many plays in common. The general philosophy was similar, that is, to create a high percentage short to intermediate passing game that was designed to replace the run with consistent short passes. They didn't always do it the same way, though. Walsh emphasized delay routes at Stanford in the late 1970s and later, alot of crossing routes in San Francisco. Whereas BYU, with Doug Scovil, Edwards and later Chow, had a core of 10/11 passes they used year after year (BYU's "60 Series": http://bruceeien.com/offense/chow/CHOW.HTM).

Unlike the 49ers, BYU did not emphasize crossing routes much, except for the famous "Mesh" play. Rather, BYU focused on Flood routes and oblique stretches. In the late 1980s, a pair of young coaches from Iowa Wesylan University went to visit with the BYU coaches to consult with them on the passing game. They borrowed much of what BYU did and built on it by taking many of the 10-11 core BYU plays and adding "tags" to each play to make it appear to the defense that the offense had 50 different passes when it reality they only had about a dozen passes, but with about 3 tags (variations of one of the routes) for each of them. They also made one small tweak to the Mesh route (to turn it into, what is now, IMO, the best single all purpose pass play in football) added more of the shotgun, expanded the quick passing game and added a ton of screen passes. These two young coaches were Hal Mumme and Mike Leach and much of today's Air Raid offense that was made popular at Kentucky in the late 1990s and now at Texas Tech draws its roots from BYU.

Courtesy of SoCal. Now Edwards according to BW has invented the spread, spread option and WCO.

Bronco Warrior
11-04-2009, 05:42 PM
Not the spread option officially but the Spread With a guy like Steve Young does have some things in common, mostly the run option for the QB but not so much the option running of the "spread option" That was my point.

when it comes to the questionable point of the WCO running more crossing routes but has the same timing, route tree,concepts, philosophies, and QB qualities and weakness that it's designed for, and the original BYU QB that you "Designed" it for but claiming Walsh came up with it first, is like saying I stole your car and put some pinstrips ( for the slow Comparison to using alot more crossing routes) on it and claiming I bought it new off the showroom floor......oh but your driver is still at the controls! Keep telling the lie though some people believe it! ;)

Bronco Warrior
11-04-2009, 05:56 PM
Also as socal pointed out the 49ers didn't emphasize crossing routes 10 years later than the ROOTS we are arguing over. So as a defining point it FAILS!!

azbroncfan
11-04-2009, 09:38 PM
keep telling the lie though some people believe it! ;)

zzz...

McDman
11-04-2009, 10:12 PM
Busted?"" With propoganda and BS? Not hardly!
FACT: BYU and EDWARDS ran the core of the WEST COAST as early as '66 with a QB named Vigil Carter!

FACT: Vigil Carter was the Starting QB for Walsh when he became the OC at Cinci!

FACT: Walsh looked for and found a system that suited his QB- Carter_ by copying the system that made him most successful..when? AT BYU!

Fact: '66 is before '69!

Fact: Holmgren, Billick, Reid, Chow, (and by extention their coaching trees) All learned the "West Coast" from Edwards and not Walsh.

Fact: Repeating a lie or misconception over and over does not make it true no matter how much one wants it to, or how many people buy into it!

None of these things can be disputed by the eevidence or the truth.

Tell me again about getting busted by "Facts"?



Fact. Bears eat beets.

Bears. Beets. Battlestar Galactica.

uplink
11-05-2009, 06:11 AM
their may have been west coast want-to-bes but it took the strongest arm to every pick up a football in Jay Cutler to really invent it in all its glory. Its lucky Jay didn't play during the cold war as the u.s. might have had to notify the soviets before every throw that there was not a missle being launched.

broncosteven
11-05-2009, 09:21 PM
It's pretty clear to me that it was Paul Brown, Sid Gilman and Bill Walsh. There is one poster here who honestly thinks it was LaVell Edwards and Virgil Carter because Carter did well playing in Walsh's system. Sure BYU coaches had some influence under Walsh but BYU's passing game was a lot of shotgun and was more like Texas Tech runs now.

All factors considered, the birth of the West Coast offense started with the legendary Paul Brown, from whom Walsh worked for in Cincinnati, and the offensive genius Sid Gillman. Gillman made his mark in 10 seasons with the San Diego Chargers, leading them to five championship appearances. http://football.calsci.com/WCOHistory2.html

You guys know that Blanton Collier was running what Brown left over of his "WCO" system and invented the ZBS concept for Jim Brown in early 1960's.

They were the last Browns team to win a Championship in 1964. Thanks to Modell Cleveland has become the armpit of the great lakes ever since.

Circle Orange
11-05-2009, 09:25 PM
Y'all aint gonna believe this, but I think TJ once said it originated in CINCINNATI OHIO and a guy by the name of J. Elway was involved.

Not THAT one. The OTHER one...;)

azbroncfan
11-05-2009, 11:37 PM
You guys know that Blanton Collier was running what Brown left over of his "WCO" system and invented the ZBS concept for Jim Brown in early 1960's.

They were the last Browns team to win a Championship in 1964. Thanks to Modell Cleveland has become the armpit of the great lakes ever since.

No worry I'm sure that BW will be here soon enough to claim BYU invented the ZBS to.