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Bronco Rob
10-31-2009, 05:18 PM
Gunslingers don't necessarily make great quarterbacks


By Marla Ridenour
Beacon Journal sports writer

POSTED: 06:02 p.m. EDT, Oct 31, 2009


BEREA: Mamas, don't let your babies grow up to be gunslingers.

But if they do, remember it takes more than a rocket arm and a childhood Punt, Pass and Kick trophy to become a franchise quarterback in the NFL.

Look no further than Derek Anderson and Jay Cutler, starting quarterbacks for the Browns and Chicago Bears, respectively, today at Soldier Field.

Anderson's throws can dislocate fingers just ask tight end Robert Royal about that but he wouldn't start for any other team in the league with his abysmal statistics.

According to Stats Inc., his 40.6 rating is the third-worst through the first seven weeks in this decade. He trails only Ryan Leaf's 34.5 for the San Diego Chargers in 2000 and Kerry Collins' 37.5 for the Tennessee Titans in 2006.

And there's more. Anderson's 32.9 completion percentage (23-of-70) in the past three games is the lowest by a quarterback with at least 70 attempts since the Oakland Raiders' Steve Beuerlein completed 31.9 percent (23-of-72) in 1988.

Asked about his numbers, Anderson said Wednesday, ''I honestly know they're garbage and I haven't looked at them since I started playing.''

Anderson is putting in the study time and staying late in Berea, impressing Browns coach Eric Mangini and offensive coordinator Brian Daboll with his work ethic.

''If he keeps his preparation up, I really believe good things are going to come,'' Daboll said Friday.

But clearly Anderson is not the Browns' quarterback of the future. Granted, he's hampered by an inexperienced receiving corps, problems on the right side of the offensive line, a rookie center, injuries at tight end and the lack of a running game. But even when Anderson had all the pieces in place in 2007, his inconsistency and penchant for throwing an interception at the worst possible time were maddening. The nicest comment Bears coach Lovie Smith could muster about Anderson last week was, ''Anderson is a good player, he can make all the throws.''

Daboll has increasingly put more and more blame on Anderson, saying Friday that the interception by the Green Bay Packers on a throw to rookie Brian Robiskie was Anderson's fault for letting the ball go too early.

Asked what Anderson needs to do better, Daboll said: ''Complete more passes. I'm being serious. There's some plays the last game that I know he feels he left out there, more so than the first couple games. We had some guys in good positions.''

When asked whether it was time to start someone else, Daboll said, ''I don't think we're at that point right now.''

That might give hope to fans of backup Brady Quinn, who won the job in training camp and was given only 10 quarters before being yanked.

Everything written about Anderson in Pro Football Weekly's 2005 Draft Preview has come to fruition.

''Struggles handling pressure and makes bad decisions,'' Nolan Nawrocki wrote. ''Has a difficult time reading coverages. Needs to improve accuracy. Looks like a different quarterback from week to week. Makes his receivers stop in stride and work for the ball. Lacks patience and has too many lapses in concentration. Throws off his back foot too much. Slow to set his feet. Not a great leader. Won't be able to adjust to the speed of the game for at least several years.''

Anderson's 14-17 record as a starter in four seasons with the Browns has proved that going 10-5 and throwing 29 touchdown passes during his Pro Bowl year in 2007 was an aberration against an easy schedule. Perhaps he'll go somewhere else and become Steve Young, but I wouldn't bet my Phil Simms' autographed mini-football helmet on it.

Cutler, meanwhile, was expected to put the Bears over the top when he arrived in an April 2 trade from the Denver Broncos. The price was steep for the disgruntled flamethrower who was the 11th overall pick in the 2006 draft. After Cutler became upset when new Broncos coach Josh McDaniels floated his name in trade talks, the Bears gave up two first-round picks (in 2009 and 2010), a third-rounder in '09 and quarterback Kyle Orton for Cutler and the Broncos' fifth-rounder.

The Bears are 3-3 with Cutler; the Broncos, 6-0 with Orton. Cutler has thrown 11 touchdowns and 10 interceptions, but he's on pace to pass for a franchise record 3,872 yards.

Asked whether Cutler has been taking too many chances, Smith said: ''The mentality you try to score every play, we're not going to change that. Interceptions happen. We've had too many. We'll continue to do things to limit the amount of interceptions, but you still have to play the game.''

Cutler's 20-23 record as a starter did not deter the Bears from extending his contract on Oct. 20, locking him up through 2013. According to the Chicago Tribune, he's now scheduled to make $50 million in the next five years, with $20 million guaranteed.

Browns defensive coordinator Rob Ryan thinks Cutler was worth it.

''The guy can throw a strawberry through a battleship, I've always said that about him,'' Ryan said Friday. ''I really think he could and I've seen the Missouri up close and I honestly think he'd find a fault in it. He's got a huge arm.

''Cutler's always been a great competitor. I like watching the kid play. He holds the ball down by his shoelaces because he thinks he's tougher than everybody. Then he'll throw it and he doesn't care where it's going. He's going to get it to his man.

''When we played him in the past in Oakland, we always had our guys tape their fingers because we're afraid to get 'em knocked off. You can be in the way of the ball, but the chances of you catching it aren't real good if you're not used to catching one out of a cannon.''

For the Broncos, Cutler was 13-1 when the defense held foes to 21 points or less. Perhaps he will succeed with a better defense. [u]But it remains to be seen whether he's a leader. It remains to be seen whether he's as good as the NFL's reigning gunslingers the Minnesota Vikings' Brett Favre (the poster boy of the genre, who won one Super Bowl with the Packers) and the Pittsburgh Steelers' Ben Roethlisberger (who has two championships). The other big-armed quarterbacks aren't running away in their divisions. The Baltimore Ravens are 3-3 with Joe Flacco; the Packers, 4-2 with Aaron Rodgers. Others with less arm strength are faring just as well, like Drew Brees with the New Orleans Saints (6-0), Peyton Manning with the Indianapolis Colts (6-0) and Tom Brady with the New England Patriots (5-2).

With neither Anderson nor Quinn appearing to be the answer, the Browns' search for a franchise quarterback might begin again in 2010, when they seem bound for a top-five pick.

They might be tempted by the University of Washington's Jake Locker if he forgoes his final year of eligibility. Locker is 6-foot-3 and 225 pounds with a big arm, but ESPN's Mel Kiper Jr. believes he's a work in progress in terms of accuracy, decision making and balance.

If Locker comes out, he's expected to be one of the top two quarterbacks selected, especially after Heisman Trophy winner Sam Bradford of Oklahoma underwent shoulder surgery. Locker also has been drafted by the Los Angeles Angels and Nawrocki said recently that baseball scouts believe Locker has a ''hall of fame arm.''

Burned by one gunslinger in Anderson, will the Browns go looking for another? Oh, Mama, that could be risky business, indeed.



http://www.ohio.com/sports/browns/68058072.html




:thumbs:

lex
10-31-2009, 05:31 PM
Gunslingers don't necessarily make great quarterbacks

"Dont necessarily"...thats hardly going out on a limb. LOL.

In other news, somethimes its a good idea to take an umbrella even when it isnt currently raining.

Popps
10-31-2009, 05:46 PM
But, he's got a "rocket arm!"

Missouribronc
10-31-2009, 05:59 PM
But, he's got a "rocket arm!"

lol...

DenverBrit
10-31-2009, 06:46 PM
But, he's got a "rocket arm!"

Yep, arm by NASA, brain by Mattel. ;D

HEAV
10-31-2009, 07:09 PM
Having a strong arm is an asset, but it's how a quarter uses that asset, it can't become the answer to everything on the football field. It can be used to keep defense of balanced and when the situation calls for it.

Playing QB is more than just throwing hard and far. Sadly many fans fall in love with the long ball fire rocket pass. Playing qaurterback is about understanding the defense, knowing your offense, moving players into spots to create matchups, blocking assignments, and leading a group of players.

Far too many times we have seen big arm force balls into really bad spots and hurt their teams. Even Elway (my childhood hero) was guilty of thinking his arm was good enough to win and would force balls.

I remeber reading a SI article about the Super the week before the Broncos Vs 49ers. It was title The Puncher vs surgeon and had Elway and Montana photos under the respective title. Basically the article said Elway would punch the 49ers, but montana would slice and dice the Broncos. In my youth I thought Elway had a shot to win tha Superbowl... damn that article was correct.

It was until Fassell and Shanny that he stop being a gunner and became a quarterback. Playing the field general, using the matchups, protecting his defense and when called for to use the gun.

That's why I was so against Jay being handed the team in 06 and being allowed to be the wild child rocket throwing attitude QB. He needed to learn and grow over time. Shanny just was desperate to get him out there and over looked everything he knew needed fixed. It's sad that Shanny came in and fixed Elway's game, but then created a problem child like Jay.

No one will not deny the talent that Cutler has in his arm and legs. But it's not until he learns how to lead, how to be a quarterback and play smart, until he wins. Sadly his ego now is too big to be reeled in by Lovie and a desperate city looking for a quarterback.

When the trade went down for Cutler a Bear fan I work with told me to enjoy limp arm Orton. Now 6-0 later I tell him everyday. "I'm enjoying the franchise QB you guys gave us!" "Also can't wait for that 2010 draft selection of yours!"

I'll take a smart, average arm quarterback with heart over a young gun ego everytime.

frerottenextelway
10-31-2009, 07:18 PM
Hmm....

SB Champs (based on that year)

Big Ben - Gunslinger
Eli - Not Gunslinger
Peyton - Lean Gunslinger
Big Ben - Gunslinger
Tom Brady - Lean Gunslinger
Tom Brady - Lean Not Gunslinger
Brad Johnson - Not Gunslinger
Tom Brady - Not Gunslinger
Dillfer - Not Gunslinger
Warner - Gunslinger
Elway - Lean Gunslinger
Elway - Lean Gunslinger

Maybe, sometimes, perhaps, whatever.

broncogary
10-31-2009, 07:23 PM
Having a strong arm is an asset, but it's how a quarter uses that asset, it can't become the answer to everything on the football field. It can be used to keep defense of balanced and when the situation calls for it.

Playing QB is more than just throwing hard and far. Sadly many fans fall in love with the long ball fire rocket pass. Playing qaurterback is about understanding the defense, knowing your offense, moving players into spots to create matchups, blocking assignments, and leading a group of players.

Far too many times we have seen big arm force balls into really bad spots and hurt their teams. Even Elway (my childhood hero) was guilty of thinking his arm was good enough to win and would force balls.

I remeber reading a SI article about the Super the week before the Broncos Vs 49ers. It was title The Puncher vs surgeon and had Elway and Montana photos under the respective title. Basically the article said Elway would punch the 49ers, but montana would slice and dice the Broncos. In my youth I thought Elway had a shot to win tha Superbowl... damn that article was correct.

It was until Fassell and Shanny that he stop being a gunner and became a quarterback. Playing the field general, using the matchups, protecting his defense and when called for to use the gun.

That's why I was so against Jay being handed the team in 06 and being allowed to be the wild child rocket throwing attitude QB. He needed to learn and grow over time. Shanny just was desperate to get him out there and over looked everything he knew needed fixed. It's sad that Shanny came in and fixed Elway's game, but then created a problem child like Jay.

No one will not deny the talent that Cutler has in his arm and legs. But it's not until he learns how to lead, how to be a quarterback and play smart, until he wins. Sadly his ego now is too big to be reeled in by Lovie and a desperate city looking for a quarterback.

When the trade went down for Cutler a Bear fan I work with told me to enjoy limp arm Orton. Now 6-0 later I tell him everyday. "I'm enjoying the franchise QB you guys gave us!" "Also can't wait for that 2010 draft selection of yours!"

I'll take a smart, average arm quarterback with heart over a young gun ego everytime.

Do you mean in the abstract?

Killericon
10-31-2009, 07:32 PM
Gunslinger...Not Gunslinger...

A good quarterback is a good quarterback.

SouthCarolinaBronco
10-31-2009, 08:03 PM
Gunslinger...Not Gunslinger...

A good quarterback is a good quarterback.

Agreed. But if there is one point that Kyle Orton and Josh McDaniels have made this year, it's that throwing accurately and smartly for 5-10 yards is a pretty damn effective way to win football games.

It amazes me that football "rediscovers" this every few years. It was rediscovered when people figured out that the best QB in the 70's was Terry Bradshaw, not Roger Staubach or Fran Tarkenton. It was rediscovered when Joe Montana's West Coast Offense won four Super Bowls in the 1980's over Dan Marino, Boomer Esiason, and (ick) John Elway. It was rediscovered when Troy Aikman dominated Jim Kelly in the 1990's.

A long passing game is great if you've got it, but an accurate, possession-based short passing game is far, far more important. It's just like golf... you drive for show and you putt for dough. But it doesn't stop people from going nuts over a guy who can whack a golf ball 350 yards on the driving range.

Bronco Warrior
10-31-2009, 08:19 PM
I'll take a guy who can make all the throws over one who can't no matter how "Smart" he is. You can coach technique but you can't coach in athleticism or talent. If you watch Brandstater in College he kinda reminds me of a poor mans Jake Locker. He just might have the brains and the brawn ;).
For the record in Elways first two years and his partial rookie year he had 30 somthing TD and 52 ints much worse than Cutler and he turned out OK!

What the hell is a Lean Gunslinger? lol Elway untill Shanny came along was all gunslinger!

Bronco Warrior
10-31-2009, 08:23 PM
We could draft a combo of both...lol..Max Hall from BYU (True birthplace of the West Coast Style offense). They run the Spread now and Hall is a short game pro with the head and heart of a gunslinger. He chokes in big games though..lol..except the OU Opener ;)

bombay
10-31-2009, 08:25 PM
duh

baja
10-31-2009, 08:33 PM
We could draft a combo of both...lol..Max Hall from BYU (True birthplace of the West Coast Style offense). They run the Spread now and Hall is a short game pro with the head and heart of a gunslinger. He chokes in big games though..lol..except the OU Opener ;)

Will you be staying long?

SouthCarolinaBronco
10-31-2009, 08:35 PM
I'll take a guy who can make all the throws over one who can't no matter how "Smart" he is. You can coach technique but you can't coach in athleticism or talent.

Throwing the ball to your team, and not to the other team, isn't strictly technique. Some people lack the ability to read coverage and to pick up who is where on the field. That's primarily cognitive, and that sure as hell isn't coachable. That's like saying you could coach somebody to have better eyesight.

Ambiguous
10-31-2009, 08:39 PM
We could draft a combo of both...lol..Max Hall from BYU (True birthplace of the West Coast Style offense). They run the Spread now and Hall is a short game pro with the head and heart of a gunslinger. He chokes in big games though..lol..except the OU Opener ;)

Well that OU game, they were missing their star qb for half the game.

Bronco Warrior
10-31-2009, 08:46 PM
Well that OU game, they were missing their star qb for half the game.

But the defense still dominated with and without that "Star QB", and Hall played clutch for BYU

Bronco Warrior
10-31-2009, 08:48 PM
Gimmee Jake Locker, An Ex BYU QB for a coach and big and strong with a good head on his shoulders.

Bronco Warrior
10-31-2009, 08:49 PM
Throwing the ball to your team, and not to the other team, isn't strictly technique. Some people lack the ability to read coverage and to pick up who is where on the field. That's primarily cognitive, and that sure as hell isn't coachable. That's like saying you could coach somebody to have better eyesight.

True..again see Elways early career ;)

mhgaffney
10-31-2009, 09:05 PM
With the big contract and all that guaranteed money -- where is Cutler's incentive to improve?

All he has to do is show up --

SouthCarolinaBronco
10-31-2009, 09:12 PM
True..again see Elways early career ;)

Derek Anderson and Jay Cutler are not John Elway, and they are never going to be.

The fact that one player can overcome an interception problem is not evidence that other players are likely to. Anything is possible, but in the grand scheme of things, you can't point to an absolutely exceptional player as evidence that other players are going to have the same sort of turnaround.

Popps
10-31-2009, 09:30 PM
Hmm....

SB Champs (based on that year)

Big Ben - Gunslinger
Eli - Not Gunslinger
Peyton - Lean Gunslinger
Big Ben - Gunslinger
Tom Brady - Lean Gunslinger
Tom Brady - Lean Not Gunslinger
Brad Johnson - Not Gunslinger
Tom Brady - Not Gunslinger
Dillfer - Not Gunslinger
Warner - Gunslinger
Elway - Lean Gunslinger
Elway - Lean Gunslinger

Maybe, sometimes, perhaps, whatever.

Dude, that list is insanity. Tom Brady is the farthest thing from Gunslinger you're going to find. Manning? Are you kidding?

There's one gunslinger on that list, and I'm hoping you can figure out who that is.

BroncoMan4ever
10-31-2009, 10:51 PM
Hmm....

SB Champs (based on that year)

Big Ben - Gunslinger
Eli - Not Gunslinger
Peyton - Lean Gunslinger
Big Ben - Gunslinger
Tom Brady - Lean Gunslinger
Tom Brady - Lean Not Gunslinger
Brad Johnson - Not Gunslinger
Tom Brady - Not Gunslinger
Dillfer - Not Gunslinger
Warner - Gunslinger
Elway - Lean Gunslinger
Elway - Lean Gunslinger

Maybe, sometimes, perhaps, whatever.

since when is Ben a gunslinger. dude is the prototype game manager. his job is don't **** it up for the defense, get the runnin game going and make good plays at the end of games.

Kaylore
10-31-2009, 11:13 PM
Hmm....

SB Champs (based on that year)

Big Ben - Gunslinger
Eli - Not Gunslinger
Peyton - Lean Gunslinger
Big Ben - Gunslinger
Tom Brady - Lean Gunslinger
Tom Brady - Lean Not Gunslinger
Brad Johnson - Not Gunslinger
Tom Brady - Not Gunslinger
Dillfer - Not Gunslinger
Warner - Gunslinger
Elway - Lean Gunslinger
Elway - Lean Gunslinger

Maybe, sometimes, perhaps, whatever.
Big Ben a gunslinger? Peyton Manning a gunslinger? Are you freaking kidding me? Brady a Gunslinger? Talk about complete and total epic fail. Just about every guy up there is the complete opposite of a gunslinger. Throwing for a lot of yards is not a "gunslinger." Even Elway in his SB wins was no longer a gunslinger.

And what the hell is a "lean" gunslinger?

Popps
10-31-2009, 11:25 PM
Big Ben a gunslinger? Peyton Manning a gunslinger? Are you freaking kidding me? Brady a Gunslinger? Talk about complete and total epic fail. Just about every guy up there is the complete opposite of a gunslinger. Throwing for a lot of yards is not a "gunslinger." Even Elway in his SB wins was no longer a gunslinger.

And what the hell is a "lean" gunslinger?

The reason I'll never be a mod around here is... I would have just deleted that post. It's so skull-numbingly misinformed, I'd be afraid that a young football fan might read it and end up football-dumb for life.

Manning is one of the most accurate QBs to ever toss a pass in the NFL.

What's next, Troy Aikman was a gunslinger?

baja
10-31-2009, 11:35 PM
Actually Payton Manning is not as accurate as you would think, what he is is the smartest man on the field and knows where to find the open guy but a thread the needle guy he is not.

Popps
11-01-2009, 12:26 AM
Actually Payton Manning is not as accurate as you would think, what he is is the smartest man on the field and knows where to find the open guy but a thread the needle guy he is not.


He has a 12 year career completion percentage of almost 65% and a career 95 QB rating. If that's not an accurate QB, I don't know what is.

In my 30 years of watching, I've seen few guys with the ability to put the ball exactly where they want it like Manning. Now, I'd agree that if he's flustered and moved out of the pocket, he'll have some trouble. But, that's because he's absolutely NOT a gunslinger by any stretch of the imagination.

I'm not saying he's without flaw, but the guy can drop a 35 yard pass into a sprinting receiver's arms like he was standing right next to him and handing him the ball. I'm just not sure how he can be thought of as anything else but a very accurate passer.

All that said, I really can't stand him.

BroncoMan4ever
11-01-2009, 01:05 AM
The reason I'll never be a mod around here is... I would have just deleted that post. It's so skull-numbingly misinformed, I'd be afraid that a young football fan might read it and end up football-dumb for life.

Manning is one of the most accurate QBs to ever toss a pass in the NFL.

What's next, Troy Aikman was a gunslinger?

not only is Manning one of the most accurate, he is quite possibly the most intelligent football minded QB in NFL history. his brain is his biggest weapon as a QB

fdf
11-01-2009, 05:35 AM
The reason I'll never be a mod around here is... I would have just deleted that post. It's so skull-numbingly misinformed, I'd be afraid that a young football fan might read it and end up football-dumb for life.

Manning is one of the most accurate QBs to ever toss a pass in the NFL.

What's next, Troy Aikman was a gunslinger?

Brian Griese was a gunslinger.

frerottenextelway
11-01-2009, 06:47 AM
since when is Ben a gunslinger. dude is the prototype game manager. his job is don't **** it up for the defense, get the runnin game going and make good plays at the end of games.

Big Ben may be the biggest gunslinger in the league, including Favre, and has been that way since day 1. Your take is ridiculous.

frerottenextelway
11-01-2009, 06:48 AM
Big Ben a gunslinger? Peyton Manning a gunslinger? Are you freaking kidding me? Brady a Gunslinger? Talk about complete and total epic fail. Just about every guy up there is the complete opposite of a gunslinger. Throwing for a lot of yards is not a "gunslinger." Even Elway in his SB wins was no longer a gunslinger.

And what the hell is a "lean" gunslinger?

Without a doubt. If Big Ben is not a gunslinger, then there is no such thing as a gunslinger. It seems people want to slant reality to put forth a point of view.

Circle Orange
11-01-2009, 06:49 AM
Gee...you think the fact Cleveland is playing the Bears this week has anything to do with this hoo?

I can list ten qbs with "big" arms...that's not mutually exclusive or rare. But I guess in order to make a point, people have to go extreme and silly. Hit the mute button, watch your NFL package. You wouldn't be surprised at the number of "big" arms out there.

frerottenextelway
11-01-2009, 06:52 AM
Dude, that list is insanity. Tom Brady is the farthest thing from Gunslinger you're going to find. Manning? Are you kidding?

There's one gunslinger on that list, and I'm hoping you can figure out who that is.

I bet if you look at the stats, nobody threw more bombs in Brady's last two full seasons than him.

Circle Orange
11-01-2009, 06:52 AM
Btw, that gunslinger stuff is mental. It comes from guys with arms THINKING they can do anything.

And Elway still had that mentality even late, which is why he was picked off in the Bowl against the Packers. Tried to force a ball in the endzone to put the game away.

And in his final superbowl, John Madden said Shanahan was the most aggressive coach in the nfl and he had the quarterback to go with it.

Anyone who has the tape will hear it. :approve:

frerottenextelway
11-01-2009, 06:54 AM
The reason I'll never be a mod around here is... I would have just deleted that post. It's so skull-numbingly misinformed, I'd be afraid that a young football fan might read it and end up football-dumb for life.

Manning is one of the most accurate QBs to ever toss a pass in the NFL.

What's next, Troy Aikman was a gunslinger?

Since when does gunslinger mean inaccurate? That's just retarded. Brett Favre has a high completion percentage, I guess he's not a gunslinger. Nobody is a gunslinger. Except for Cutler. Only guy ever.

Kaylore
11-01-2009, 06:55 AM
Without a doubt. If Big Ben is not a gunslinger, then there is no such thing as a gunslinger. It seems people want to slant reality to put forth a point of view.

I'm slanting things? This from the guy who had two of the most careful and nonathletic quarterbacks in the game in Brady and Manning as "gunslingers." Ok dude. :yep:

frerottenextelway
11-01-2009, 06:58 AM
I'm slanting things? This from the guy who had two of the most careful and nonathletic quarterbacks in the game in Brady and Manning as "gunslingers." Ok dude. :yep:

Since when do gunslingers have to be athletic? Lol, it has to do with throwing the ball, not running it. Adrian Peterson sure is a gunslinger!!!

Hulamau
11-01-2009, 06:58 AM
I'll take a guy who can make all the throws over one who can't no matter how "Smart" he is. You can coach technique but you can't coach in athleticism or talent. If you watch Brandstater in College he kinda reminds me of a poor mans Jake Locker. He just might have the brains and the brawn ;).
For the record in Elways first two years and his partial rookie year he had 30 somthing TD and 52 ints much worse than Cutler and he turned out OK!

What the hell is a Lean Gunslinger? lol Elway until Shanny came along was all gunslinger!

Foremost one of several things you over look is that Elway was never a p***Y ... His teammates always had his back and he had theirs ....

AND he had the very good fortune to get Fassel and Shanny as QB/OC/Head coach ... plus the school of hard knocks.

Without Fassell, and particularly Shanny, Elway's legend would still be solid, maybe even Hall of Fame .... but not bordering on Divine.

Too bad Jay passed up his Golden Chance for an even better Shanny as a pure QB coach in Josh ... then he might have become something truly special? ... Who knows if he ever gets anywhere near such a lucky break on a silver platter again?!? :peace:

frerottenextelway
11-01-2009, 07:02 AM
I'm slanting things? This from the guy who had two of the most careful and nonathletic quarterbacks in the game in Brady and Manning as "gunslingers." Ok dude. :yep:

Also, Manning has the 3rd most INTs of any active QB. Careful? Facts say not really.

Circle Orange
11-01-2009, 07:06 AM
Ultimately the position is still played between the ears. You can be a gunslinger or not, but stupid quarterbacks with no instincts will fail.

Cautionary tale...there's no secret there's a reason you see the same guys in the playoffs every year. Hype aside, it's funny how guys everyone talks about are never there when it counts. Just sayin.'

Hulamau
11-01-2009, 07:09 AM
The reason I'll never be a mod around here is... I would have just deleted that post. It's so skull-numbingly misinformed, I'd be afraid that a young football fan might read it and end up football-dumb for life.

Manning is one of the most accurate QBs to ever toss a pass in the NFL.

What's next, Troy Aikman was a gunslinger?

:rofl:

Bronco X
11-01-2009, 07:09 AM
How is "gunslinger" being defined? The ability to throw the ball 50 yards down the field? An inclination to fire the ball into tiny windows where there is tight coverage?

Bronco Warrior
11-01-2009, 07:10 AM
Foremost one of several things you over look is that Elway was never a p***Y ... His teammates always had his back and he had theirs ....

AND he had the very good fortune to get Fassel and Shanny as QB/OC/Head coach ... plus the school of hard knocks.

Without Fassell, and particularly Shanny, Elway's legend would still be solid, maybe even Hall of Fame .... but not bordering on Divine.

Too bad Jay passed up his Golden Chance for an even better Shanny as a pure QB coach in Josh ... then he might have become something truly special? ... Who knows if he ever gets anywhere near such a lucky break on a silver platter again?!? :peace:

Amen! Elway definately mellowed and tempered his passion to become great! People forget that he wa a bit of a Diva himself. Wouldn't play for Baltimore and Frank Cush, Got Reeves fired...Reeves had pulled a McDaniels and tried to trade him (RUFK?) Reeves tried to trade Elway after 3 SuperBowl trips!

Hulamau
11-01-2009, 07:11 AM
Agreed. But if there is one point that Kyle Orton and Josh McDaniels have made this year, it's that throwing accurately and smartly for 5-10 yards is a pretty damn effective way to win football games.

It amazes me that football "rediscovers" this every few years. It was rediscovered when people figured out that the best QB in the 70's was Terry Bradshaw, not Roger Staubach or Fran Tarkenton. It was rediscovered when Joe Montana's West Coast Offense won four Super Bowls in the 1980's over Dan Marino, Boomer Esiason, and (ick) John Elway. It was rediscovered when Troy Aikman dominated Jim Kelly in the 1990's.

A long passing game is great if you've got it, but an accurate, possession-based short passing game is far, far more important. It's just like golf... you drive for show and you putt for dough. But it doesn't stop people from going nuts over a guy who can whack a golf ball 350 yards on the driving range.

Welcome to the Mane South Carolina, we can use all the clear thinkers with some football IQ we can find. :sunshine:

frerottenextelway
11-01-2009, 07:12 AM
I bet if you look at the stats, nobody threw more bombs in Brady's last two full seasons than him.

Well, looking at the stats Brady threw more bombs in his last full season than Cutler did in his (30 vs 27).

Bronco Warrior
11-01-2009, 07:13 AM
How is "gunslinger" being defined? The ability to throw the ball 50 yards down the field? An inclination to fire the ball into tiny windows where there is tight coverage?

Exactly what it implies! Improv, seemingly wreckless, Run and Gun! A Maverick...takes chances etc etc etc! A Cutler or Farve!

frerottenextelway
11-01-2009, 07:14 AM
How is "gunslinger" being defined? The ability to throw the ball 50 yards down the field? An inclination to fire the ball into tiny windows where there is tight coverage?

A bit of both.

Circle Orange
11-01-2009, 07:19 AM
How is "gunslinger" being defined? The ability to throw the ball 50 yards down the field? An inclination to fire the ball into tiny windows where there is tight coverage?

Here you go:

http://kissingsuzykolber.uproxx.com/2006/11/f-k-it-im-throwing-it-downfield.html

There's much more, of course. Unfortunately, it got him run out of town.

No, wait...;D

Rohirrim
11-01-2009, 07:23 AM
To me, a gunslinger is a guy like Cutler. A QB who doesn't really care what the coverage looks like and feels he can zip it into double or triple coverage, or fire it down field, any time he wants. He does not respect the defensive coverage, always feels that his skill-set is superior to any "gameplan" and expects his receivers to come up with whatever he throws out there. Generally speaking, when he throws an INT, it's somebody else's fault. When these guys are winning they are heroes. When they're not, they're bums. They are fun to watch, if you like antacids. They play an emotion-based brand of football. All guts and glory.

Then, there are the game managers. They do most of their work in the film-room. Their number one skill is not arm strength (although many have it), it's knowledge. They play the percentages. They know the numbers. They know what the defense is going to do before they do it, and if they don't know, then they go with the higher percentage play. They play football the way Jack Nicklaus played golf - even if they don't have their "A" game working (for whatever reason), they can still win with their "C" game. When they get rushed, they don't try to burn it into double and triple coverage. They throw it away and concentrate on the next play. They can still go downfield, but not on a whim. They go downfield after they have set up a few plays that get them single coverage when they want it. It's all part of the plan.

Elway started as a gunslinger. Shanahan turned him into hybrid. Personally, I would go with the game manager every time. I prefer victories and trophies. IMO, game manager QBs are a product of the modern game - mostly Bill Walsh. The Gillman style was the downfield gunslinger. The Walsh style was the game manager. I think the first, true, game manager was Joe Montana. Since then, Aikman, Payton and Brady have been built on that model. Orton is in that model. Cutler is not.

Kaylore
11-01-2009, 07:24 AM
Since when do gunslingers have to be athletic? Lol, it has to do with throwing the ball, not running it. Adrian Peterson sure is a gunslinger!!!

Are you really being this obtuse? Where did I say every athlete is a gunslinger? A gunslinger, by most people's reckoning, is someone who does the following:

1. Goes off script to make plays. This means rather than sticking to the called play they improvise to create a play. This is the number one thing that makes a QB a gunslinger. There are very few QB's in the league that do this because it pisses coaches off.

2. Is mobile. Scrambles around. As part of the gunslinger mentality, they will move around to buy time. This requires athletic ability to run and throw accurately on the run. It is in direct connection with the first one because it means rather than sticking with their drop and firing on time, they often bail out of the pocket to move around and make a play.

3. Dangerous throws. A gunslinger takes chances and will try and squeeze the ball into tight places. They usually do not take sacks and often throw interceptions because they are overconfident and favor a low probability of success big play downfield to a high percentage safe throw like a check down.

A gunslinger is NOT someone who throws for a lot of yardage because they are in pass friendly offense or play in a dome. Peyton Manning and Drew Brees aren't gunslingers. They are cerebral QB's who work like surgeon's by perfecting their timing and rhythm. Tom Brady is one of the most careful QB's in the NFL. Being careful is the exact opposite of a gunslinger. Just because a QB can throw it downfield that doesn't mean he's a gunslinger or every QB in the league would be one. The majority of the QB's you listed throw it downfield, but only when they like the matchup. This means it is calculated. Gunslingers will often chuck it to their favorite receiver with no thought to who is covering them.

Here are examples of NFL gunslingers: Early John Elway and Steve Young, Fran Tarkenton, Daunte Culpepper, Jake Plummer, Donovan McNabb, Michael Vick, Brett Favre, Jay Cutler.

frerottenextelway
11-01-2009, 07:26 AM
Are you really being this obtuse? Where did I say every athlete is gunslinger? A gunslinger, by most people's reckoning, is someone who does the following.

1. Goes off script to make plays. This means rather than sticking to the called play they improvise to create a play. This is the number one thing that makes a QB a gunslinger. There are very few QB's in the league that do this because it pisses coaches off.

2. Is mobile. Scrambles around. As part of the gunslinger mentality, they will move around to buy time. This requires athletic ability to run and throw accurately on the run. It is in direct connection with the first one because it means rather than sticking with their drop and firing on time, they often bail out of the pocket to move around and make a play.

3. Dangerous throws. A gunslinger takes chances and will try and squeeze the ball into tight places. They usually do not take sacks and often throw interceptions because they are overconfident and favor a low probability of success big play downfield to a high percentage safe throw like a check down.

A gunslinger is NOT someone who throws for a lot of yardage because they are in pass friendly offense or play in a dome. Peyton Manning and Drew Brees aren't gunslingers. They are cerebral QB's who work a surgeon's by perfecting their timing and rhythm. Tom Brady is one of the most careful QB's in the NFL. Being careful is the exact opposite of a gunslinger. Just because a QB can throw it downfield that doesn't mean he's a gunslinger or every QB in the league would be one. The majority of the QB's you listed throw it downfield, but only when they like the matchup. This means it is calculated. Gunslingers will often chuck it to their favorite receiver with no thought to who is covering them.

Here are examples of NFL gunslingers: Early John Elway and Steve Young, Fran Tarkenton, Daunte Culpepper, Donovan McNabb, Michael Vick, Brett Favre, Jay Cutler.

You just described Big Ben. That's amusing.

Hulamau
11-01-2009, 07:28 AM
Amen! Elway definitely mellowed and tempered his tendency early on to become too risky for the sake of the team when it was all on him to carry a team with little other real talent on offense !

People forget that he was a bit of a Diva himself. Wouldn't play for Baltimore and Frank Cush, Got Reeves fired...Reeves had tried to trade Elway due to their on going tensions but Elway handled it like a man behind closed doors. The better man won and Elway stayed and eventually got Shanny, two Super Bowl trophies and undying glory forever.

Very unlike the Cutler - McDaniels split where Josh made the best of Jays petulant hissy fit over the mere whisper that a trade had been offered for consideration to Denver for a multi-pick deal plus Cassel, even though it never went anywhere and Josh never signed off on the idea nor ever presented it to Bowlen ...

(RUFK?) Reeves tried to trade Elway after 3 SuperBowl trips!

There, fixed it for ya!

azbroncfan
11-01-2009, 07:31 AM
We could draft a combo of both...lol..Max Hall from BYU (True birthplace of the West Coast Style offense).

I grew up in Happy Valley and don't remember seeing Bill Walsh coaching there?

Circle Orange
11-01-2009, 07:38 AM
There's various styles based on ability, instincts and intelligence


Craftsmen, precision, classic pocket awareness (Montana had good mobility in this group)

Montana, Manning (Peyton), Brady, Warner, Schaubb, Marino



Hybrid (pass, throw, mobility)

Brees, McNabb


Passers with some mobility
Rivers
Flacco
Anderson



Instinctive, athletic throwers
Ben, Vick

Throwers with some mobility
Cutler
V. Young
J. Russell
J. Kelly
Bradshaw
Eli Manning
Favre

Total hybrid (mobility, instinctive, thrower, passer, athletic)
Elway

I think the categories are oversimplified most of the time. But if you really look at how these guys play, their skill sets often overlap.

Bronco Warrior
11-01-2009, 07:48 AM
I grew up in Happy Valley and don't remember seeing Bill Walsh coaching there?

Fact: Bill Walsh had a QB named Virgil Carter in Cinci, and he went back to the college VC played BYU, and copied the offense that had made him so successful. Edwards was running the "Wasatch Front Offense" 15 years before Walsh. Why do you think he wanted Holmgren and Steve Young so bad ;)!

As Coach Edwards indicates the BYU offense actually got its start in the mid 1960s when LaVell Edwards was offensive coordinator and Virgil Carter was his quarterback. ('65 )Virgil was the first in a long string of BYU QBs to set passing records and move onto the NFL. In an amazing twist of fate Virgil Carter was drafted by the Chicago Bears but eventually wound up in Cincinnati with Bill Walsh as his offensive coordinator. Virgil could not throw a very deep ball so Walsh was forced to concentrate on what Virgil could do well - throw shorter timed routes like he had at BYU. Later on at San Francisco Walsh also recruited Mike Holmgren the QB coach at BYU from 1982-85 to join his staff on the 49ers.[/I]http://www.trojanfootballanalysis.com/wp/wordpress/?p=178

Edwards coaching tree is much more impressive than Walshes and even Walshes best Branch was Holmgren( All Holmgren's tree) started in BYU..also Billick Reid, Chow, Sarkesian, Mike Leach (@ TTU) among many others. Even Shanny took over Holmgrens spot in SF and learned the BYU way lol!

Saying Walsh invent the West Coast is as dumb as saying that Miami INVENTED the "WildCat". You know if the NFL vcan make a buck off it somehow or prop up a coach (Ala Bellichick) They will repeat a lie till it seems like truth!

GeniusatWork
11-01-2009, 08:01 AM
Gunslinger is a metaphor for a QB that throws a lot of interceptions, right?

I knew last year it was time for Shanahan to go when he said Cutler's interceptions on third down were as good as a punt.

frerottenextelway
11-01-2009, 08:04 AM
Gunslinger is a metaphor for a QB that throws a lot of interceptions, right?


Nah. Griese threw a lot of interceptions and was the opposite of a gunslinger. A gunslinger is an aggressive QB with a strong arm.

azbroncfan
11-01-2009, 08:14 AM
Fact: Bill Walsh had a QB named Virgil Carter in Cinci, and he went back to the college VC played BYU, and copied the offense that had made him so successful. Edwards was running the "Wasatch Front Offense" 15 years before Walsh. Why do you think he wanted Holmgren and Steve Young so bad ;)!

As Coach Edwards indicates the BYU offense actually got its start in the mid 1960s when LaVell Edwards was offensive coordinator and Virgil Carter was his quarterback. ('65 )Virgil was the first in a long string of BYU QBs to set passing records and move onto the NFL. In an amazing twist of fate Virgil Carter was drafted by the Chicago Bears but eventually wound up in Cincinnati with Bill Walsh as his offensive coordinator. Virgil could not throw a very deep ball so Walsh was forced to concentrate on what Virgil could do well - throw shorter timed routes like he had at BYU. Later on at San Francisco Walsh also recruited Mike Holmgren the QB coach at BYU from 1982-85 to join his staff on the 49ers.[/I]http://www.trojanfootballanalysis.com/wp/wordpress/?p=178

Edwards coaching tree is much more impressive than Walshes and even Walshes best Branch was Holmgren( All Holmgren's tree) started in BYU..also Billick Reid, Chow, Sarkesian, Mike Leach (@ TTU) among many others. Even Shanny took over Holmgrens spot in SF and learned the BYU way lol!

Saying Walsh invent the West Coast is as dumb as saying that Miami INVENTED the "WildCat". You know if the NFL vcan make a buck off it somehow or prop up a coach (Ala Bellichick) They will repeat a lie till it seems like truth!



Walsh learned it under Paul Brown. There were a ton of BYU coaches that went to the 49ers but to say the birthplace of it was Provo is a joke. West Coast offense doesn't really use shotgun like BYU ran rather three step drops with 2 RB's in the back field. BYU system was more of what we run now in Denver. West Coast offense is more of a strategy versus a system. Ken Anderson was the first QB to run the system. Actually Bill Parcells was the one who invented the west coast offense since he is the one who coined the phrase. You need to google west coast offense origins before you claim BYU was the birthplace of it.

cutthemdown
11-01-2009, 08:18 AM
97-98 Elway was anything but a gunslinger. He was a game manager who threw ball maybe 20 times a game. Elway didn't often have 300 yrd games in those yrs.

LRtagger
11-01-2009, 08:33 AM
The epitome of a gunslinger is a QB who is high risk - high reward. He can win games for you with his arm, but can also lose them just as easily.

It's not someone who throws the ball downfield (ala Tom Brady). Tom Brady throws the ball downfield because he had Randy Moss to catch it, not because he would rather try to fit it into double coverage and not check down underneath. Brady didn't throw the ball downfield nearly as much as he has since the team acquired Moss. If the criteria for being a gunslinger was spreading the field with the occassional deep ball, then Rivers would be the biggest gunslinger in the league. He's not. River's throws the ball downfield when his guy is open and he is incredibly accurate downfield (which is amazing considering he throws like a girl).

QBs that fit the gunslinger mold are the ones who approach the game with reckless abandon. Someone who would rather chuck the ball around the field and rely on armstrength instead of making smart decisions and taking what is given.

Ben, Brady, Manning, Rivers, Brees, Ryan, Orton etc do not fit this mold. They make smart decisions, do not typically lose games for their team. They generally take what the defense gives them, and will on occassion take shots downfield when they get single coverage or are trying to soften up the defense.

Gunslingers will dazzle one week with tons of yards and late game heroics...and then the next week will make you pull your hair out by throwing an INT that loses the game. Their stats will suggest that they are incredibly inconsistant, yet you will see them on Sportscenter's top 10 plays every week for an incredible throw that the fit into coverage and thus they are labelled a top tier QB because they are capable of making plays that most others can not make.

Favre, Cutler, Romo, perhaps even McNabb fit this mold. They will attempt to put the team on their back, even when it's not neccessary. They rely on their arm and take too many chances with the ball. They don't throw the ball downfield based on coverage or in an attempt to manipulate the defense. They throw the ball downfield because they feel they can fit the ball into double coverage with a safety over the top. They single-handedly can lose a game for the entire team just as easily as they can win it.

frerottenextelway
11-01-2009, 08:34 AM
97-98 Elway was anything but a gunslinger. He was a game manager who threw ball maybe 20 times a game. Elway didn't often have 300 yrd games in those yrs.

Denver
1989
474 passing attempts
554 rushing attempts

1997
513 passing attempts
520 rushing attempts

Hmmmm....

Also, if a team is rush heavy or pass heavy doesn't have to do with if the QB is a gunslinger or not.

GeniusatWork
11-01-2009, 08:36 AM
Actually Payton Manning is not as accurate as you would think, what he is is the smartest man on the field and knows where to find the open guy but a thread the needle guy he is not.

People have told me Peyton and Dan Marino are the best pure passing QB's ever. Some older people have told me Unitas was also. I've heard a lot of names even Craig Morton and the Dallas QB Meredith as pure passers that were winners. There is a few more. I heard Stabler was like that, just a passer. I heard Lamonica was like that. And Dawson for KC. The people in my family talk a lot about the old-timers that were winners and just stood there in the pocket and picked teams apart and won.

frerottenextelway
11-01-2009, 08:39 AM
The epitome of a gunslinger is a QB who is high risk - high reward. He can win games for you with his arm, but can also lose them just as easily.

It's not someone who throws the ball downfield (ala Tom Brady). Tom Brady throws the ball downfield because he had Randy Moss to catch it, not because he would rather try to fit it into double coverage and not check down underneath. Brady didn't throw the ball downfield nearly as much as he has since the team acquired Moss. If the criteria for being a gunslinger was spreading the field with the occassional deep ball, then Rivers would be the biggest gunslinger in the league. He's not. River's throws the ball downfield when his guy is open and he is incredibly accurate downfield (which is amazing considering he throws like a girl).

QBs that fit the gunslinger mold are the ones who approach the game with reckless abandon. Someone who would rather chuck the ball around the field and rely on armstrength instead of making smart decisions and taking what is given.

Ben, Brady, Manning, Rivers, Brees, Ryan, Orton etc do not fit this mold. They make smart decisions, do not typically lose games for their team. They generally take what the defense gives them, and will on occassion take shots downfield when they get single coverage or are trying to soften up the defense.

Gunslingers will dazzle one week with tons of yards and late game heroics...and then the next week will make you pull your hair out by throwing an INT that loses the game. Their stats will suggest that they are incredibly inconsistant, yet you will see them on Sportscenter's top 10 plays every week for an incredible throw that the fit into coverage and thus they are labelled a top tier QB because they are capable of making plays that most others can not make.

Favre, Cutler, Romo, perhaps even McNabb fit this mold. They will attempt to put the team on their back, even when it's not neccessary. They rely on their arm and take too many chances with the ball. They don't throw the ball downfield based on coverage or in an attempt to manipulate the defense. They throw the ball downfield because they feel they can fit the ball into double coverage with a safety over the top. They single-handedly can lose a game for the entire team just as easily as they can win it.

Does anyone watch the Steelers? Ben improvises and tries to make an off-script play downfield on like nearly every pass attempt. Moreso than any QB I've ever seen, including Favre, Cutler, and even a young Elway. And every Steeler fan (and even their coach) will tell you this flat out.

Bronco Warrior
11-01-2009, 08:46 AM
Walsh learned it under Paul Brown. There were a ton of BYU coaches that went to the 49ers but to say the birthplace of it was Provo is a joke. West Coast offense doesn't really use shotgun like BYU ran rather three step drops with 2 RB's in the back field. BYU system was more of what we run now in Denver. West Coast offense is more of a strategy versus a system. Ken Anderson was the first QB to run the system. Actually Bill Parcells was the one who invented the west coast offense since he is the one who coined the phrase. You need to google west coast offense origins before you claim BYU was the birthplace of it.

Walsh didn't learn **** from Brown about a system that was never played by a Brown tean before Carter and Walh. Seriously read for once! Key line here:Virgil could not throw a very deep ball so Walsh was forced to concentrate on what Virgil could do well - throw shorter timed routes like he had at BYU. When was that? He won the WAC Championship for Edwards in '65 using the "Wasatch Front" Walsh didn't "Invent" the WC till the mid 70's. Fact are facts and repeating a lie doesn't change the truth!

I decided to throw the football, not just the normal 10 or 15 times a game but 35 to 45 times per game on any down from our own end zone to the opponents end zone. The only success we had ever had at BYU was when Virgil Carter was our quarterback (in the mid 1960s) and we threw the ball.

The BYU pass offense is based on a timing system. We design the quarterback drops, route depths, and protection schemes so that the quarterback can throw the ball in a specific timed sequence. If the defense and coverage will not allow us to execute our rhythm or timing, then we convert our attack with route adjustments. We want to throw the ball upfield by attacking the vertical seams created by coverage and the horizontal seams created by using our running backs in a flare-flood control concept. By doing this we can still be a ball control offense and take advantage of what the defense is giving us.
( the definition of "West Coast") LOL

We have five basic tenents in our passing game. First, we must protect the quarterback. Second, we want to play ball control football, primarily with the forward pass. Third, it is important to incorporate an effective running game with the passing attack. Fourth, we will take what the defense gives us. Fifth, we as coaches must constantly KISS the offense (Keep It Simple Stupid). LaVell Edwards, The Football Coaching Bible

LRtagger
11-01-2009, 08:57 AM
Does anyone watch the Steelers? Ben improvises and tries to make an off-script play downfield on like nearly every pass attempt. Moreso than any QB I've ever seen, including Favre, Cutler, and even a young Elway. And every Steeler fan (and even their coach) will tell you this flat out.

Yea, because his offensive line sucks ass. He doesn't stand in the pocket and throw the ball into double coverage because he thinks he has a rocket arm.

He does a good job at improvising and his receivers do a good job at breaking off their routes to get open when a play doesn't develop. That doesn't necessarily constitute a "gunslinger". He doesn't take UNNECESSARY risks. He goes off-script when he is forced to because he has one of the worst pass-blocking lines in the league.

frerottenextelway
11-01-2009, 08:58 AM
This is an awesome quote from last week:

http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/sports/steelers/s_649453.html

Roethlisberger didn't take the bait when asked to compare his game with Favre's. "I'm not going to compare myself to Brett because he is a legend, and I'm just trying to get to his level,'' Roethlisberger said. What part of Favre's game did Roethlisberger emulate? "Just kind of the gunslinger, doing the unothorodox stuff sometimes."

So Ben actually used the word "gunslinger" to describe himself. Lol. Of course that is obvious to those that watch Steeler games regularly.

frerottenextelway
11-01-2009, 09:02 AM
“I’m not a pocket-passer, I can make throws in the pocket. I’m not a running quarterback but I can make plays with my legs. I honestly think that I’m just a crazy gunslinger back there, I guess!”

- Ben

Lol

GeniusatWork
11-01-2009, 09:05 AM
Big Ben may be the biggest gunslinger in the league, including Favre, and has been that way since day 1. Your take is ridiculous.

Gus Frerrotte was a gunslinger type. i remember him. Throw it anywhere. Roth is not like that.

frerottenextelway
11-01-2009, 09:07 AM
Yea, because his offensive line sucks ass. He doesn't stand in the pocket and throw the ball into double coverage because he thinks he has a rocket arm.

He does a good job at improvising and his receivers do a good job at breaking off their routes to get open when a play doesn't develop. That doesn't necessarily constitute a "gunslinger". He doesn't take UNNECESSARY risks. He goes off-script when he is forced to because he has one of the worst pass-blocking lines in the league.

He looks to improvise and make big plays, and is encouraged by his coach to do so, because he is unbelievably talented. He also takes plenty of "UNNECESSARY risks" as that comes with the territory. He is the hallmark of a gunslinger, and really good at what he does.

LRtagger
11-01-2009, 09:16 AM
It's media fluff. How often did he compare himself to Favre or call himself a "gunslinger" in the 4 years prior not ever playing head to head against him?

Cutler gets compared to Favre every week. Ben gets compared to Favre one week out of 70+. If he happened to be playing Montana that week, they would have done a fluff piece comparing the two. Or Marino, or Elway, or Aikman, or...

He is one of the top young QBs in the league playing against a legend that he admired growing up. It happens all the time in every sport.

Ben won his two SBs averaging 203 yards throwing per game in those two years....not exactly Favre-esque.

GeniusatWork
11-01-2009, 09:20 AM
Since when does gunslinger mean inaccurate? That's just retarded. Brett Favre has a high completion percentage, I guess he's not a gunslinger. Nobody is a gunslinger. Except for Cutler. Only guy ever.

A QB can be a gunslinger type but he has to be smart and not throw interceptions.

It's like in baseball where you don't make the first or third out in an inning trying to stretch a double into a triple. It's a basic rule.

In football a QB should wait his time to force throws just like in baseball you don't try to stretch doubles into triples except at certain times.

Brett Favre I've seen that QB lose playoff games by trying to "stretch doubles into triples" instead of getting the first down.

frerottenextelway
11-01-2009, 09:20 AM
It's media fluff. How often did he compare himself to Favre or call himself a "gunslinger" in the 4 years prior not ever playing head to head against him?

Cutler gets compared to Favre every week. Ben gets compared to Favre one week out of 70+. If he happened to be playing Montana that week, they would have done a fluff piece comparing the two. Or Marino, or Elway, or Aikman, or...

He is one of the top young QBs in the league playing against a legend that he admired growing up. It happens all the time in every sport.

Ben won his two SBs averaging 203 yards throwing per game in those two years....not exactly Favre-esque.

How often is he compared to Favre? I don't know.

I do know that he chose #7 because he grew up idolizing Elway and modeled his game on that, and has been compared to him all the way back to his high school days.

frerottenextelway
11-01-2009, 09:22 AM
A QB can be a gunslinger type but he has to be smart and not throw interceptions.

It's like in baseball where you don't make the first or third out in an inning trying to stretch a double into a triple. It's a basic rule.

In football a QB should wait his time to force throws just like in baseball you don't try to stretch doubles into triples except at certain times.

Brett Favre I've seen that QB lose playoff games by trying to "stretch doubles into triples" instead of getting the first down.

Well, yeah. :thumbsup:

The term "gunslinger" by itself doesn't mean the QB is good or bad, it's just a style of play.

frerottenextelway
11-01-2009, 09:28 AM
It's media fluff. How often did he compare himself to Favre or call himself a "gunslinger" in the 4 years prior not ever playing head to head against him?

Cutler gets compared to Favre every week. Ben gets compared to Favre one week out of 70+. If he happened to be playing Montana that week, they would have done a fluff piece comparing the two. Or Marino, or Elway, or Aikman, or...

He is one of the top young QBs in the league playing against a legend that he admired growing up. It happens all the time in every sport.

Ben won his two SBs averaging 203 yards throwing per game in those two years....not exactly Favre-esque.

Also, the second gunslinger quote from him wasn't from the game against Favre.

GeniusatWork
11-01-2009, 09:39 AM
The epitome of a gunslinger is a QB who is high risk - high reward. He can win games for you with his arm, but can also lose them just as easily.

It's not someone who throws the ball downfield (ala Tom Brady). Tom Brady throws the ball downfield because he had Randy Moss to catch it, not because he would rather try to fit it into double coverage and not check down underneath. Brady didn't throw the ball downfield nearly as much as he has since the team acquired Moss. If the criteria for being a gunslinger was spreading the field with the occassional deep ball, then Rivers would be the biggest gunslinger in the league. He's not. River's throws the ball downfield when his guy is open and he is incredibly accurate downfield (which is amazing considering he throws like a girl).

QBs that fit the gunslinger mold are the ones who approach the game with reckless abandon. Someone who would rather chuck the ball around the field and rely on armstrength instead of making smart decisions and taking what is given.

Ben, Brady, Manning, Rivers, Brees, Ryan, Orton etc do not fit this mold. They make smart decisions, do not typically lose games for their team. They generally take what the defense gives them, and will on occassion take shots downfield when they get single coverage or are trying to soften up the defense.

Gunslingers will dazzle one week with tons of yards and late game heroics...and then the next week will make you pull your hair out by throwing an INT that loses the game. Their stats will suggest that they are incredibly inconsistant, yet you will see them on Sportscenter's top 10 plays every week for an incredible throw that the fit into coverage and thus they are labelled a top tier QB because they are capable of making plays that most others can not make.

Favre, Cutler, Romo, perhaps even McNabb fit this mold. They will attempt to put the team on their back, even when it's not neccessary. They rely on their arm and take too many chances with the ball. They don't throw the ball downfield based on coverage or in an attempt to manipulate the defense. They throw the ball downfield because they feel they can fit the ball into double coverage with a safety over the top. They single-handedly can lose a game for the entire team just as easily as they can win it.

This one fits the mold for a "gunslinger"

GeniusatWork
11-01-2009, 09:46 AM
- Ben

Lol

Just for grins, the only reason Pitt won that game is because of two Defense scores for TD's.

LRtagger
11-01-2009, 09:51 AM
How often is he compared to Favre? I don't know.

I do know that he chose #7 because he grew up idolizing Elway and modeled his game on that, and has been compared to him all the way back to his high school days.

Hundreds of young basketball players (including LeBron) wear #23 and grew up idolizing Jordan....doesn't mean that Lebron plays the game like Jordan. Quite the opposite, actually.

R8R H8R
11-01-2009, 09:55 AM
97-98 Elway was anything but a gunslinger. He was a game manager who threw ball maybe 20 times a game. Elway didn't often have 300 yrd games in those yrs.

Many people forget that Elway threw the ball only 12 times in SB32.

LRtagger
11-01-2009, 09:58 AM
Well, yeah. :thumbsup:

The term "gunslinger" by itself doesn't mean the QB is good or bad, it's just a style of play.

Thats the entire point of this thread, to which you rebutted by labelling nearly every QB to win the super bowl in the past decade as a "gunslinger"...seemingly trying to illustrate that gunslingers win SBs. :kiddingme

frerottenextelway
11-01-2009, 10:01 AM
Hundreds of young basketball players (including LeBron) wear #23 and grew up idolizing Jordan....doesn't mean that Lebron plays the game like Jordan. Quite the opposite, actually.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rls=com.microsoft%3A*%3AIE-SearchBox&rlz=1I7RNWO&q=roethlisberger+elway&aq=f&oq=&aqi=

frerottenextelway
11-01-2009, 10:06 AM
Thats the entire point of this thread, to which you rebutted by labelling nearly every QB to win the super bowl in the past decade as a "gunslinger"...seemingly trying to illustrate that gunslingers win SBs. :kiddingme

Lol, I labelled 3 of the past 12 as gunslingers, 4 not gunslingers, and 5 somewhere in between.

azbroncfan
11-01-2009, 09:31 PM
Walsh didn't learn **** from Brown about a system that was never played by a Brown tean before Carter and Walh. Seriously read for once!
Ok take your own advice. No wonder why noone here likes you. Instert your foot just like you were for cheering death on an old man.
All factors considered, the birth of the West Coast offense started with the legendary Paul Brown, from whom Walsh worked for in Cincinnati, and the offensive genius Sid Gillman. Gillman made his mark in 10 seasons with the San Diego Chargers, leading them to five championship appearances. http://football.calsci.com/WCOHistory2.html




Key line here:Virgil could not throw a very deep ball so Walsh was forced to concentrate on what Virgil could do well - throw shorter timed routes like he had at BYU. When was that? He won the WAC Championship for Edwards in '65 using the "Wasatch Front" Walsh didn't "Invent" the WC till the mid 70's. Fact are facts and repeating a lie doesn't change the truth!

Tell me where the Lies are A$$HOLE? You make crap up.

All factors considered, the birth of the West Coast offense started with the legendary Paul Brown, from whom Walsh worked for in Cincinnati, and the offensive genius Sid Gillman. Gillman made his mark in 10 seasons with the San Diego Chargers, leading them to five championship appearances. http://football.calsci.com/WCOHistory2.html

I decided to throw the football, not just the normal 10 or 15 times a game but 35 to 45 times per game on any down from our own end zone to the opponents end zone. The only success we had ever had at BYU was when Virgil Carter was our quarterback (in the mid 1960s) and we threw the ball.

The BYU pass offense is based on a timing system. We design the quarterback drops, route depths, and protection schemes so that the quarterback can throw the ball in a specific timed sequence. If the defense and coverage will not allow us to execute our rhythm or timing, then we convert our attack with route adjustments. We want to throw the ball upfield by attacking the vertical seams created by coverage and the horizontal seams created by using our running backs in a flare-flood control concept. By doing this we can still be a ball control offense and take advantage of what the defense is giving us.
( the definition of "West Coast") LOL

We have five basic tenents in our passing game. First, we must protect the quarterback. Second, we want to play ball control football, primarily with the forward pass. Third, it is important to incorporate an effective running game with the passing attack. Fourth, we will take what the defense gives us. Fifth, we as coaches must constantly KISS the offense (Keep It Simple Stupid). LaVell Edwards, The Football Coaching Bible
Walsh coached under Brown from 68-75. LaVell wasn't head coach until 72. Say what you want but the west coast offense you keep talking about was Walsh's system who was never under Edwards. BYU ran a similar system and that is why Walsh recruited them but Walsh didn't run out of shotgun like BYU did most of the time. Again BYU had an influence on it but to say it is the BIRTHPLACE like you did is a joke.





http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Coast_Offense

SoCalBronco
11-01-2009, 09:50 PM
The "West Coast offense" is not a single offense. BYU and the 49ers actually did not share many plays in common. The general philosophy was similar, that is, to create a high percentage short to intermediate passing game that was designed to replace the run with consistent short passes. They didn't always do it the same way, though. Walsh emphasized delay routes at Stanford in the late 1970s and later, alot of crossing routes in San Francisco. Whereas BYU, with Doug Scovil, Edwards and later Chow, had a core of 10/11 passes they used year after year (BYU's "60 Series": http://bruceeien.com/offense/chow/CHOW.HTM).

Unlike the 49ers, BYU did not emphasize crossing routes much, except for the famous "Mesh" play. Rather, BYU focused on Flood routes and oblique stretches. In the late 1980s, a pair of young coaches from Iowa Wesylan University went to visit with the BYU coaches to consult with them on the passing game. They borrowed much of what BYU did and built on it by taking many of the 10-11 core BYU plays and adding "tags" to each play to make it appear to the defense that the offense had 50 different passes when it reality they only had about a dozen passes, but with about 3 tags (variations of one of the routes) for each of them. They also made one small tweak to the Mesh route (to turn it into, what is now, IMO, the best single all purpose pass play in football) added more of the shotgun, expanded the quick passing game and added a ton of screen passes. These two young coaches were Hal Mumme and Mike Leach and much of today's Air Raid offense that was made popular at Kentucky in the late 1990s and now at Texas Tech draws its roots from BYU.

azbroncfan
11-01-2009, 09:59 PM
The "West Coast offense" is not a single offense. BYU and the 49ers actually did not share many plays in common. The general philosophy was similar, that is, to create a high percentage short to intermediate passing game that was designed to replace the run with consistent short passes. They didn't always do it the same way, though. Walsh emphasized delay routes at Stanford in the late 1970s and later, alot of crossing routes in San Francisco. Whereas BYU, with Doug Scovil, Edwards and later Chow, had a core of 10/11 passes they used year after year (BYU's "60 Series": http://bruceeien.com/offense/chow/CHOW.HTM).

Unlike the 49ers, BYU did not emphasize crossing routes much, except for the famous "Mesh" play. Rather, BYU focused on Flood routes and oblique stretches. In the late 1980s, a pair of young coaches from Iowa Wesylan University went to visit with the BYU coaches to consult with them on the passing game. They borrowed much of what BYU did and built on it by taking many of the 10-11 core BYU plays and adding "tags" to each play to make it appear to the defense that the offense had 50 different passes when it reality they only had about a dozen passes, but with about 3 tags (variations of one of the routes) for each of them. They also made one small tweak to the Mesh route (to turn it into, what is now, IMO, the best single all purpose pass play in football) added more of the shotgun, expanded the quick passing game and added a ton of screen passes. These two young coaches were Hal Mumme and Mike Leach and much of today's Air Raid offense that was made popular at Kentucky in the late 1990s and now at Texas Tech draws its roots from BYU.

Exactly and anyone who watched BYU in under Edwards wouldn't make a statement that the real birthplace of the WC Offense was BYU. BYU ran a lot of shotgun, Walsh and Montana hardly ever did if they even ever did. Guy calls me out saying I'm lying?