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meangene
10-29-2009, 04:13 AM
Broncos' ascent even more stunning because of "dead money" burden
By Mike Klis
The Denver Post
Posted: 10/29/2009 01:00:00 AM MDT
Updated: 10/29/2009 01:17:30 AM MDT

The Broncos had $3.6 million less to spend on salaries in 2009 because of the Travis Henry contract. Not even federal prison in Yazoo City, Miss., can shackle Travis Henry from becoming part of the NFL's feel-good story that is the 2009 Broncos.

Henry has long been removed from the Broncos' roster, but he still is a strong presence on their books. The former running back and current convicted drug dealer counts $3.6 million against the team's $128 million salary cap budget this year.

"He's on somebody else's roster right now," cornerback Champ Bailey said with a chuckle. "I learn something about the salary cap every year. I can understand it counting maybe for the following year, but this far down the road? The system is crazy."

Imagine, Josh McDaniels' first day on the job as Broncos coach and finding out 3 percent of his salary cap payroll would be allocated to a guy wearing a jumpsuit in Yazoo.

The absurdity doesn't end with Henry, who will celebrate his 31st birthday today as an inmate.

In listing the most stunning aspects about the 6-0 record the Broncos will take into their game Sunday at Baltimore, the efficient play of quarterback Kyle Orton, dramatic defensive transformation and attitude U-turn of receiver Brandon Marshall are often cited.

Nothing may be more amazing than this: The Broncos lead the NFL with $29.6 million in "dead money."

Dead money does not necessarily mean a team continues to pay cold, hard cash to players it no longer employs. The Broncos have long stopped writing enormous checks to Henry.

But oftentimes, prorated bonuses that become part of the NFL's salary cap formula serve as a reminder of costly past mistakes.

Most of the Broncos' dead money is allocated to players who essentially are dead to the NFL — 11 of the 16 most expensive players on their "dead money" payroll are no longer in the league.

And some people claim McDaniels inherited more talent than did the first-year coaches in Kansas City, Detroit, St. Louis, Cleveland and Tampa Bay?

"There's nothing you can do about those situations," McDaniels said. "You understand what you're dealing with, and you move on. We never one time thought of it as a limitation in terms of putting together the most competitive team we could possibly have."

All that dead money conversely means no team has done more with less than the Broncos. Essentially, the Broncos built their undefeated 61-man roster (including the eight-man practice squad) on $92.4 million in salary cap dollars.

Not bad, considering some teams had roughly the full $128 million salary cap at their disposal.

"Put it this way: If they were 1-5 or 0-6 instead of 6-0," said one NFL agent, "they would be using all that dead money as a valid excuse."

Teams with the next four highest amounts of dead money — Oakland, St. Louis, Detroit and Kansas City — are a combined 4-23.

The two teams with the least amount of dead money — Minnesota and Green Bay — are a combined 10-3.

So how did the Broncos become such a stirring exception?

"It tells you they have a lot of quality players on rookie contracts," former NFL general manager Charley Casserly said.

"And they picked up some veterans in the offseason for not high-dollar amounts."

Within the first five days of free agency — as the Jay Cutler saga exploded to cast an ominous cloud over the Broncos' 2009 expectations, as the New York Giants gave a $42 million contract to Chris Canty, as the Washington Redskins gave $41 million guaranteed to Albert Haynesworth — McDaniels and general manager Brian Xanders signed 12 free-agent players for a combined $36.62 million in guaranteed money.

All but two of those players — backup quarterback Chris Simms and running back J.J. Arrington, who was signed to a conditional contract based on a physical he eventually did not pass — have made a significant on-field impact this season.

Among the Broncos' initial free-agent group, Casserly said the Broncos found their greatest value in defensive backs Andre Goodman, Brian Dawkins and Renaldo Hill.

Those three players in the secondary replaced Dre Bly, Marquand Manuel and Marlon McCree.

Not only did the Broncos considerably upgrade those three positions in terms of performance, but the $7.55 million in combined cap salaries of Goodman, Dawkins and Hill is 20 percent less than Bly's $9.45 million cap figure alone.

"It's easy to sit here and say now I understood what they were doing, but I think we did understand what they were doing," Baltimore Ravens coach John Harbaugh said. "A lot of people in football did. Obviously the quarterback thing, they made a decision there and Josh knows what kind of situation he wanted to have there, and he knew exactly what he was looking for and got that done.

"And then the defensive side is what's really impressive. They went out and brought in a bunch of guys that, for whatever reason, they were available. I think they really selected carefully for the specific things they could do, and they've done such a great job of molding them together."

Mike Klis: 303-954-1055 or mklis@denverpost.com
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I'm wondering when some of these guys stop counting against the cap. We have some key guys who will become free agents of some sort (depending on the CBA). Some of these signing bonuses are real head scratchers!

meangene
10-29-2009, 04:19 AM
Here's the list:

<a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank"><img src="http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e97/crustyjd/20091029_011702_bronx5.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a><br /><br />

cutthemdown
10-29-2009, 04:47 AM
Wow thats a lot of guys not playing anymore. Honestly it makes Shanny look like a fool when it comes to being a GM. That's embarrasing for him IMO. That many players that other teams felt not even good enough to be 3rd or 4th string in the NFL is a slap in Shanny's face.

Mcdaniels really cleaned house. Thank you football gods for bestowing him upon us.

meangene
10-29-2009, 05:01 AM
Yeah, that is really where Shanny failed miserably! It also gives some perspective to what McDaniels was up against in rebuilding this roster and makes it even more impressive.

Drek
10-29-2009, 05:21 AM
I believe pretty much all of those guys where cut before the June 1st deadline that lets you split the cap hit over two seasons, and I don't recall us using the option on some players that lets you cut them early but treat their cap number as a June 1st cut.

Wouldn't surprise me at all if Xanders and McDaniels chose to swallow the cap hit this season right out of the gate and get the books clean before going forward, and so left as much as possible on the '09 budget.

Next year will probably be uncapped, but we won't want to add a ton more payroll because eventually a cap will be back in place and teams that jumped payroll hard will probably get screwed over on some kind of luxury tax. What would be interesting is if all this freed up money counts towards the 1:1 dollars lost vs. dollars spent on free agency for next year. If we have a big chunk of it come off the books and we're sitting on nearly $30M in money that can actually be spent on FAs while other playoff teams are stuck with a quarter of less of that we could have a real competitive advantage.

eddie mac
10-29-2009, 05:39 AM
I believe pretty much all of those guys where cut before the June 1st deadline that lets you split the cap hit over two seasons, and I don't recall us using the option on some players that lets you cut them early but treat their cap number as a June 1st cut.

Wouldn't surprise me at all if Xanders and McDaniels chose to swallow the cap hit this season right out of the gate and get the books clean before going forward, and so left as much as possible on the '09 budget.

Next year will probably be uncapped, but we won't want to add a ton more payroll because eventually a cap will be back in place and teams that jumped payroll hard will probably get screwed over on some kind of luxury tax. What would be interesting is if all this freed up money counts towards the 1:1 dollars lost vs. dollars spent on free agency for next year. If we have a big chunk of it come off the books and we're sitting on nearly $30M in money that can actually be spent on FAs while other playoff teams are stuck with a quarter of less of that we could have a real competitive advantage.

No split this year Drek because there's no cap to split it with in 2010.

Everything hit the cap this year including LTBE Incentives, bonuses, the works. If it's in your contract for 2009 it hit this year.

chanesaw
10-29-2009, 06:39 AM
I know some of those players needed to go, but almost of the players on that list were either cut or traded by McD. The article makes it sound like Josh had to build a roster with all of that dead money when in fact McD created a lot of that dead money.

tsiguy96
10-29-2009, 06:41 AM
I know some of those players needed to go, but almost of the players on that list were either cut or traded by McD. The article makes it sound like Josh had to build a roster with all of that dead money when in fact McD created a lot of that dead money.

youre saying youd rather see those players still on the team then create dead money...

Killericon
10-29-2009, 06:47 AM
I like how the article makes it seem McDaniels hasn't left any dead money with the "running back J.J. Arrington, who was signed to a conditional contract based on a physical he eventually did not pass" line....But there he is, on the list for $100,000(peanuts, but still)

peacepipe
10-29-2009, 06:52 AM
I don't forsee Bowlen or any other owner screwing themselves into a luxery tax, they'll put an exemption in if neccessary.

Orange_Beard
10-29-2009, 06:57 AM
I know it does not count against the cap, but I wonder what Shanny is getting paid?


BTW, I could really use some dead money.

worm
10-29-2009, 07:07 AM
I know some of those players needed to go, but almost of the players on that list were either cut or traded by McD. The article makes it sound like Josh had to build a roster with all of that dead money when in fact McD created a lot of that dead money.


Don't get in the way of some good Shanny hate coming.

It doesn't matter that Josh created a lot of the dead money space to build a team his way....or the fact that Shanny drafted a lot of guys performing well above their pay grade still on rookie deals.

Haters going to hate.

Muddled
10-29-2009, 07:25 AM
Don't get in the way of some good Shanny hate coming.

It doesn't matter that Josh created a lot of the dead money space to build a team his way....or the fact that Shanny drafted a lot of guys performing well above their pay grade still on rookie deals.

Haters going to hate.

That's just dumb, name me one of the players that were released by McD that you'd rather he kept?

Or are you talking 'bout the disastrous decision to sign an injured Arrington that has doomed us with 100.00 in dead money?

The Joker
10-29-2009, 07:26 AM
He created that dead money because all the players on there, with exception of Cutler, are absolutely ****ing useless.

barryr
10-29-2009, 07:28 AM
Too many times when Shanahan spent money on players from other teams, it didn't work out as this attests to. It helps explain what happened the last decade he was the coach.

mwill07
10-29-2009, 07:28 AM
does this bear into BMarshall not getting extended? Especially w/ the ghost of Travis Henry floating around, I can understand Bowlen being nervous about creating another potential issue...

dbfan21
10-29-2009, 07:29 AM
Wow thats a lot of guys not playing anymore. Honestly it makes Shanny look like a fool when it comes to being a GM. That's embarrasing for him IMO. That many players that other teams felt not even good enough to be 3rd or 4th string in the NFL is a slap in Shanny's face.

Mcdaniels really cleaned house. Thank you football gods for bestowing him upon us.

Rep! That graphic is downright embarrassing. What in the heck was Shanny thinking?!

eddie mac
10-29-2009, 07:30 AM
I know some of those players needed to go, but almost of the players on that list were either cut or traded by McD. The article makes it sound like Josh had to build a roster with all of that dead money when in fact McD created a lot of that dead money.

Shanahan created the majority of the dead money with his horrendous signings and contractual offers. McDaniels created the majority of the available cash by releasing their asses to the scrap heap thus freeing up the cash to sign players like Goodman, Hill, Dawkins etc etc.

chex
10-29-2009, 07:33 AM
I know some of those players needed to go, but almost of the players on that list were either cut or traded by McD. The article makes it sound like Josh had to build a roster with all of that dead money when in fact McD created a lot of that dead money.

There’s not one guy on that list that I would want or take back. Would you rather we keep the same **** and go 8-8 every year? I think the point you are overlooking is why the hell did we give 15 million 2009 dollars worth of contract to Bly and Boss Bailey to begin with? Is that McDaniels’ fault? I’d rather those guys be counted as dead money instead of dead weight.

Meck77
10-29-2009, 07:38 AM
I know it does not count against the cap, but I wonder what Shanny is getting paid?


BTW, I could really use some dead money.

I thought it was $7MM a year.

Shanny's stock is dropping like a rock IMO.

_Oro_
10-29-2009, 07:46 AM
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worm
10-29-2009, 07:47 AM
That's just dumb, name me one of the players that were released by McD that you'd rather he kept?


Bly is the only one that you could perhaps argue as being as good as the guy that replaced him.

Beyond that though. This team has some valuable assets playing on rookie contracts.

Josh deserves all the credit in the World for reshaping this team in his image...but he DID have an advantage in having rookie contract players being able to perform well above their pay.

If you are going to slam Shanny for this list of Dead Money..then you need to credit him also for the picks (specifically in '06) that are performing.

Denver724
10-29-2009, 07:54 AM
Here's the list:

<a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank"><img src="http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e97/crustyjd/20091029_011702_bronx5.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a><br /><br />

Amazing how many of these players are no longer playing. Shanny sucked at choosing talent. Josh is the man!

TonyR
10-29-2009, 08:02 AM
Within the first five days of free agency — as the Jay Cutler saga exploded to cast an ominous cloud over the Broncos' 2009 expectations, as the New York Giants gave a $42 million contract to Chris Canty, as the Washington Redskins gave $41 million guaranteed to Albert Haynesworth — McDaniels and general manager Brian Xanders signed 12 free-agent players for a combined $36.62 million in guaranteed money.


It's too bad McD and Xanders don't know what they're doing according to all of the offseason drama queens...

Drek
10-29-2009, 08:17 AM
No split this year Drek because there's no cap to split it with in 2010.

Everything hit the cap this year including LTBE Incentives, bonuses, the works. If it's in your contract for 2009 it hit this year.

Good to know, so we should be working with a clean slate in that regard from here on out with this new management team.

Meck77
10-29-2009, 08:32 AM
Eddie Mac. Something I've been curious about from time to time. How in the hell do you stay so in tune with the Salary cap/contracts from Ireland?

eddie mac
10-29-2009, 08:40 AM
Good to know, so we should be working with a clean slate in that regard from here on out with this new management team.

That was the whole point. Most teams that struggled last year did not clean house like we did. We've ditched every single bad contract bar maybe the likes of Jarvis Moss and Dan Graham's if you could call it that.

The Broncos are now in excellent position to extend their own if they want to and to be well under any new cap when it's agreed for 2011.

eddie mac
10-29-2009, 08:43 AM
Eddie Mac. Something I've been curious about from time to time. How in the hell do you stay so in tune with the Salary cap/contracts from Ireland?


I'm Pat's accountant. He needed dough a couple of years back so I told him to change all his $$ into Euro's and lord they're worth double now.

In all seriousness though, just finding the right sources online and good contacts with a couple of former RMN writers.

baja
10-29-2009, 08:44 AM
Eddie Mac. Something I've been curious about from time to time. How in the hell do you stay so in tune with the Salary cap/contracts from Ireland?

Dude there is this thing called Google, it's really cool and you can find stuff from anywhere, I mean it's a damn miracle.

I even found this;

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/news/2007/oct/24/snider-boys-say-light-rail-not-ol-days/


^5

meangene
10-29-2009, 08:44 AM
We do have some good players still playing under their rookie contracts which is a bargain at the moment. I'm not sure Shanny deserves credit for that since those contracts were pretty much slotted. He does deserve credit for some good draft picks in regard to those players. Freeing up the dead money will give us the resources to re-sign those players, however, as their contracts expire. I don't ever see McDaniels going after big money free agents since that does not appear to be his approach in general. I do see him paying to keep our talented players, drafting well with players that fit the system and filling in with good value free agents along the way. That is how you succeed in the long term in today's NFL.

BroncoBuff
10-29-2009, 08:54 AM
Couple easy explanations why this isn't hurting us like it is the others:

"It tells you they have a lot of quality players on rookie contracts," former NFL general manager Charley Casserly said.
Thanks to Goodman, and ...

"And they picked up some veterans in the offseason for not high-dollar amounts."
Thanks to Josh.

That's how we're kicking ass despite all the dead money, And I'm not too excited about this dead money falling off the books next year, because it's gonna go right to the '06 class and Orton. We're lucky we started signing rookies to 4-year deals.

Paladin
10-29-2009, 08:54 AM
That used to be called the "Patriots' Way". Now I think in Denver it will be called the "Josh Plan".

TonyR
10-29-2009, 08:59 AM
...I'm not too excited about this dead money falling off the books next year, because it's gonna go right to the '06 class and Orton.

That's why you should be "excited". Without the space created by this dead money falling off they'd have more difficulty signing everybody. We're in better shape than it appears at first glance and that's great news.

baja
10-29-2009, 09:03 AM
It is becoming clear Shanahan pretty much screwed the pooch in every facet of his responsibilities except a few draft choices and the scripted first 15 offensive plays. ;D

Mr. Elway
10-29-2009, 09:13 AM
If you are going to slam Shanny for this list of Dead Money..then you need to credit him also for the picks (specifically in '06) that are performing.

For sure. He got a lot better at drafting (at least offense) in his last few years. He was still god awful at drafting defense, and at free agency in general. The big money on that list is all grossly overpaid free agents.

To be successful in the NFL you have to be pretty good in all phases IMO.

BroncoBuff
10-29-2009, 09:26 AM
That's why you should be "excited". Without the space created by this dead money falling off they'd have more difficulty signing everybody. We're in better shape than it appears at first glance and that's great news.

Yes, but what I mean is we won't have that money for new guys ... it'll just convert over to Marshall, Kuper, Scheffler, Dumervil salaries. The roster will look the same.

SpringStein
10-29-2009, 09:26 AM
And why did we have to dip into the FA market so often? Could it be because we had such lousy drafts from 2000-05? I mean if we had drafted Marion Barber instead of thenamenottoberepeated, would we have had to sign Travis Henry?

Yes, they were some really bad signings, but I place the blame on poor drafting.

BroncoBuff
10-29-2009, 09:27 AM
It is becoming clear Shanahan pretty much screwed the pooch in every facet of his responsibilities except a few draft choices and the scripted first 15 offensive plays. ;D

Yeah, just a few draft choices.

HILife
10-29-2009, 09:38 AM
Eddie Mac. Something I've been curious about from time to time. How in the hell do you stay so in tune with the Salary cap/contracts from Ireland?

www.google.com

Meck77
10-29-2009, 09:44 AM
Google eh? Never heard of it. I meant "other sources" like his contacts of writers at the former RMN. You can certainly learn a lot from a reporter. I had one contact at the RMN when I was fighting eminent domain. His information was priceless to me. We still stay in contact.

SoDak Bronco
10-29-2009, 09:46 AM
Yes, but what I mean is we won't have that money for new guys ... it'll just convert over to Marshall, Kuper, Scheffler, Dumervil salaries. The roster will look the same.

I think Josh and the Broncos plan down the road will be to do exactly that. Keep the players from within the organization, and cherry pick every now and then. Steelers are a perfect example of this, they rarely go after FA's, and usually sign the players they developed from the draft/practice squad.

Mr.Meanie
10-29-2009, 09:50 AM
Yes, but what I mean is we won't have that money for new guys ... it'll just convert over to Marshall, Kuper, Scheffler, Dumervil salaries. The roster will look the same.

I think that's kind of the point...

WolfpackGuy
10-29-2009, 09:52 AM
So is all that money coming off for 2010?

lookin' glass
10-29-2009, 10:17 AM
How do the Redskins seemingly throw lots of money at players every and escape this kind of thing?

cutthemdown
10-29-2009, 10:18 AM
I give Shanny credit for Doom, Marshall, Royal, Scheff because those players when he took them most pundits didn't think they were great picks. Also found them lower in the draft.

Ryan Harris was also a great pick.

Clady though could have been drafted by Rasta himself. Every football magazine had him ranked really high.

It's not that Shanny didn't find some good talent, he did. It's just that for every good player he brought in he brought in 2 that totally stunk. I'm not talking not fit the system, I'm talking not good enough to even play for another team once Broncos done with them.

How Engleberger, Webster, Winborn, all those scrub safety's even made it to our roster is what made us soft.

eddie mac
10-29-2009, 10:22 AM
So is all that money coming off for 2010?

At present 2010 is uncapped so the only issues next season are cash and how much owner's are prepared to pay players because for the first time in years an owner will control how much is really spent as there is no team minimum salary.

eddie mac
10-29-2009, 10:24 AM
How do the Redskins seemingly throw lots of money at players every and escape this kind of thing?


They dont escape anything, they're always liable for the up front money and guarantees, that's all on Snyder though and if he's prepared to chuck it away that's his perogative.

Tombstone RJ
10-29-2009, 10:27 AM
Dude there is this thing called Google, it's really cool and you can find stuff from anywhere, I mean it's a damn miracle.

I even found this;

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/news/2007/oct/24/snider-boys-say-light-rail-not-ol-days/


^5

Why the hell should we do the research when an Irish hooligan can do it better!

eddie mac
10-29-2009, 10:28 AM
Why the hell should we do the research when an Irish hooligan can do it better!

Where did the hooligan bit come from.:thumbsup:

Popps
10-29-2009, 10:29 AM
If you are going to slam Shanny for this list of Dead Money..then you need to credit him also for the picks (specifically in '06) that are performing.

I've long been one around here who's said just that. Our drafting has been marginal, but our FA work was just horrific... and for the better part of the last 10 years.

That dead money list is a joke. Honestly, just look at those guys. Those guys are on milk cartons, at this point.

Tombstone RJ
10-29-2009, 10:32 AM
Where did the hooligan bit come from.:thumbsup:

We need at least one Irish hooligan representing the Broncos across the pond, I just figured you'd be that hooligan. :wiggle:

Kaylore
10-29-2009, 10:38 AM
Don't get in the way of some good Shanny hate coming.

It doesn't matter that Josh created a lot of the dead money space to build a team his way....or the fact that Shanny drafted a lot of guys performing well above their pay grade still on rookie deals.

Haters going to hate.

Shanahan left him garbage and he took it out and paid the bill. You're telling me that it's McDaniels' fault and you would have preferred we kept those guys here on the team? You want to see Marquand Manual instead of Brian Dawkins dancing around like an idiot? You think we should have kept overpaid Niko Koutouvides instead of Andra Davis so we could watch him get paid to ride the pine? Give me a freaking break.

It's a testament to how Shanahan paid for guys that sucked and paid them handsomely. Most can't even find jobs on other teams in the NFL. Saying "well McDaniels cut them so he sucks!" is ridiculous. He inherited the problem and had to clean house to make things right, which obviously he succeeded in doing.

bronco militia
10-29-2009, 10:40 AM
Amazing how many of these players are no longer playing. Shanny sucked at choosing talent. Josh is the man!

look at shanny's work in 1995 and 1996.


you have to take the good with the bad

DenverBrit
10-29-2009, 10:40 AM
After looking at that list, one wonders what the 'dead' money total has been since the Dale Carter mess. :holyguac!

lex
10-29-2009, 10:41 AM
It is becoming clear Shanahan pretty much screwed the pooch in every facet of his responsibilities except a few draft choices and the scripted first 15 offensive plays. ;D


This is generally wrong considering Shanahans teams were generally successful. But there is a lot of truth in that he did have his short comings.

One thing that I kind of gleam from this post though, is that in 2001, the Ravens started dropping a lot of payroll in spite of having won the SB. That was probably the first big instance of this, sort of, lean operations taking over in the NFL. Prior to that, you would have been more inclined to see teams keep players instead of letting guys like Sharper and Lewis walk. I recall this because it seems like this lean operations idea has kind of started being extended to coaching staffs. Teams are going with younger guys who are cheaper and avoiding figureheads. The fact that Shanahan won in spite of all his flaws just points to how tragic it was that he allowed himself to a) become a figurehead when the team needed his acumen in a more involved way and b) that he was so tolerant of intolerant yes men like Sundquist, Slowik, Burney, etc. Its a shame really.

chanesaw
10-29-2009, 10:44 AM
There’s not one guy on that list that I would want or take back. Would you rather we keep the same **** and go 8-8 every year? I think the point you are overlooking is why the hell did we give 15 million 2009 dollars worth of contract to Bly and Boss Bailey to begin with? Is that McDaniels’ fault? I’d rather those guys be counted as dead money instead of dead weight.

My point was that besides Henry and Kolbert we were going into the season with almost no dead money.

Bly is a good CB, and would have made the team. He was overpaid, but that cap hit is the remainder of his bonus, not his annual salary. The Jay trade didn't upgrade our roster either. Those two moves account for about half of the dead money. Take those moves away and there isn't an article because were are likely in the middle of the pack, which isn't bad for a team that switched schemes on both sides of the ball, with a major overhaul on the defensive scheme.

Andre didn't really replace Boss (mike and sam in the 4-3).

Olsen for Kory didn't really help us either.

What I am saying is that every year there are players that need to be replaced on every team. Most of those defensive players would have been replace anyway, and besides Boss they were small change. I give a lot of credit to Josh for signing the right guys to fit the 3-4 scheme, and besides Dawkins, they were cheap. But two guys that make up about half of that dead money were guys that would be starting this year, and are starting on the teams that they play for now. This article went on an on about Henry but it should have talked more about Bly and Cutler, since those two are where most of the money is at.

bronco militia
10-29-2009, 10:44 AM
This is generally wrong considering Shanahans teams were generally successful. But there is a lot of truth in that he did have his short comings.

One thing that I kind of gleam from this post though, is that in 2001, the Ravens started dropping a lot of payroll in spite of having won the SB. That was probably the first big instance of this, sort of, lean operations taking over in the NFL. Prior to that, you would have been more inclined to see teams keep players instead of letting guys like Sharper and Lewis walk. I recall this because it seems like this lean operations idea has kind of started being extended to coaching staffs. Teams are going with younger guys who are cheaper and avoiding figureheads. The fact that Shanahan won in spite of all his flaws just points to how tragic it was that he allowed himself to a) become a figurehead when the team needed his acumen in a more involved way and b) that he was so tolerant of intolerant yes men like Sundquist, Slowik, Burney, etc. Its a shame really.


other than not having the title of president of football operations, mcdaniels has the same power over personel as shanny did in 1995.

Tombstone RJ
10-29-2009, 10:45 AM
Shanny was terrible at bringing in Free Agents post Elway. He bombed more than he succeeded bringing FAs in. His drafts were mediocre at best sans the Goodman years of '06-'08.

Again, Shanny the GM screwed Shanny the coach most of the time.

lex
10-29-2009, 10:45 AM
other than not having the title of president of football operations, mcdaniels has the same power over personel as shanny did in 1995.

ok?

bronco militia
10-29-2009, 10:47 AM
ok?

macdaniels has the same opportunity to **** this up the same way shanny did

lex
10-29-2009, 10:48 AM
After looking at that list, one wonders what the 'dead' money total has been since the Dale Carter mess. :holyguac!

Or an even better example is Jake Plummer.

TheDave
10-29-2009, 10:48 AM
2006,2007,& 2008 Drafts plus a 100% hit rate on 2009 FA class is saving our ass. Hopefully the 2009 draft class continues along the same lines.

lex
10-29-2009, 10:50 AM
macdaniels has the same opportunity to **** this up the same way shanny did

Was McDaniels ****ing this up even being discussed? Its a fair enough point but I guess I missed seeing it interface with something that I or someone else was saying.

lex
10-29-2009, 10:52 AM
2006,2007,& 2008 Drafts plus a 100% hit rate on 2009 FA class is saving our ass. Hopefully the 2009 draft class continues along the same lines.


I think everyone can agree that the team would be better off if the 2009 draft class worked out but lets also consider that there were far more high end picks than we typically saw in previous drafts. Rarely did you see Shanahan have that many picks that high. So, in theory, this should be a good draft class based on the number of high picks that were made.

DenverBrit
10-29-2009, 10:53 AM
Or an even better example is Jake Plummer.

The total since Dale Carter would be much higher and would include Jake.

bronco militia
10-29-2009, 10:54 AM
Was McDaniels ****ing this up even being discussed? Its a fair enough point but I guess I missed seeing it interface with something that I or someone else was saying.

this prt of your post:

I recall this because it seems like this lean operations idea has kind of started being extended to coaching staffs. Teams are going with younger guys who are cheaper and avoiding figureheads.

I don't agreee that there is any kind of trend. The Broncos being my example.

IMO the same environment of 1995 exists for Mcdaniels in 2009

worm
10-29-2009, 10:59 AM
I've long been one around here who's said just that. Our drafting has been marginal, but our FA work was just horrific... and for the better part of the last 10 years.

That dead money list is a joke. Honestly, just look at those guys. Those guys are on milk cartons, at this point.

I guess I am less shocked about our past FA work (granted it was bad..but so are a lot of teams) than I am absolutely blown away by the FA success this year. I would call every single FA pickup a success right now. That is down right unprecedented. Even for the Patriots.

ludo21
10-29-2009, 11:10 AM
Shanny also did the most with the crap he had as well, it wasnt all bad.

JCMElway
10-29-2009, 11:13 AM
Hey Eddie Mac, (Or anyone else who is in the know,)

What is our dead money situation for next year looking like? (sans players on this year's roster of course.)

rastaman
10-29-2009, 11:15 AM
I know it does not count against the cap, but I wonder what Shanny is getting paid?


BTW, I could really use some dead money.

Bowlen owed Shanny 21 million after the 08 season. Shanny earns 7 million in 09, 10, & 11, unless a team hires Shanny in 10 or 11.

baja
10-29-2009, 11:32 AM
Why the hell should we do the research when an Irish hooligan can do it better!

Eddie is the best - long live Eddie....

baja
10-29-2009, 11:41 AM
My point was that besides Henry and Kolbert we were going into the season with almost no dead money.

<b>Bly is a good CB, and would have made the team. He was overpaid, but that cap hit is the remainder of his bonus, not his annual salary. The Jay trade didn't upgrade our roster either.</b> Those two moves account for about half of the dead money. Take those moves away and there isn't an article because were are likely in the middle of the pack, which isn't bad for a team that switched schemes on both sides of the ball, with a major overhaul on the defensive scheme.

Andre didn't really replace Boss (mike and sam in the 4-3).

Olsen for Kory didn't really help us either.

What I am saying is that every year there are players that need to be replaced on every team. Most of those defensive players would have been replace anyway, and besides Boss they were small change. I give a lot of credit to Josh for signing the right guys to fit the 3-4 scheme, and besides Dawkins, they were cheap. But two guys that make up about half of that dead money were guys that would be starting this year, and are starting on the teams that they play for now. This article went on an on about Henry but it should have talked more about Bly and Cutler, since those two are where most of the money is at.

In the case of Bly if what you say were true he would be playing here. No way McD & FO would take a cap hit like that to make a lateral or slightly improved move. As for Cutler, it had to be done or McD would have failed because the team camaraderie would not have developed with Jay as QB.

baja
10-29-2009, 11:42 AM
other than not having the title of president of football operations, mcdaniels has the same power over personel as shanny did in 1995.

How do you know that ?

bronco militia
10-29-2009, 11:43 AM
How do you know that ?

the question was asked sometime this offseason.....it's around here somwhere

baja
10-29-2009, 11:46 AM
Hey Eddie Mac, (Or anyone else who is in the know,)

What is our dead money situation for next year looking like? (sans players on this year's roster of course.)

Somebody didn't read the thread... ;D

No dead money -uncaped year

azbroncfan
10-29-2009, 11:47 AM
Engelberger makes more of an impact being Dead Money than playing on this team.

cutthemdown
10-29-2009, 11:50 AM
Somebody didn't read the thread... ;D

No dead money -uncaped year

exactly they are worrying about things that are soon to be wiped totally clean. No way the carry cap info over to a new CBA. Those chargers ran up under the old rules. They will start fresh and the poor teams who don't have dead money won't complain. Why? Because they will just be happy to get some sort of revenue sharing with the big boys.

There will be a new cap, but I doubt players not on your roster will count. They will make a nice new start with fresh books.

bronco militia
10-29-2009, 11:50 AM
How do you know that ?

Where the Broncos' new organizational ladder would be like their old one is the coach would have final say on who makes the 53-man roster

this is from an article before the Goodmans were fired.


http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_11363899

baja
10-29-2009, 11:57 AM
exactly they are worrying about things that are soon to be wiped totally clean. No way the carry cap info over to a new CBA. Those chargers ran up under the old rules. They will start fresh and the poor teams who don't have dead money won't complain. Why? Because they will just be happy to get some sort of revenue sharing with the big boys.

There will be a new cap, but I doubt players not on your roster will count. They will make a nice new start with fresh books.

One aspect I don't like about this is the poorly managed teams like Snyder's Redskins are receiving absolution. Instead of sleeping in their bed they made the NFL is giving them a shiny new debt free bed.

BroncoBuff
10-29-2009, 12:02 PM
One aspect I don't like about this is the poorly managed teams like Snyder's Redskins are receiving absolution. Instead of sleeping in their bed they made the NFL is giving them a shiny new debt free bed.

Raiders benefit immensely from this too ...

baja
10-29-2009, 12:05 PM
The only real thing to help the Raiders is the transition of Al davis.

BTW there is no such thing as objective every single thing is subjective to the observer.

lex
10-29-2009, 12:23 PM
this prt of your post:

I recall this because it seems like this lean operations idea has kind of started being extended to coaching staffs. Teams are going with younger guys who are cheaper and avoiding figureheads.

I don't agreee that there is any kind of trend. The Broncos being my example.

IMO the same environment of 1995 exists for Mcdaniels in 2009

Ah. I guess I didnt make the connection because I dont see Shanahan and McDaniels being the same although, like I said, you make a fair point in saying that Josh has been given enough authority do make a lot of the same mistakes Shanahan made. To me, my point ties into the current trend of Tomlin, McDaniels, Morris, Kiffin, etc. Even Tomlin openly acknowledges that they are seen as cheaper alternatives. I think the concept of value is being more closely scrutinized if the coach is going to be more of a figurehead.

Man-Goblin
10-29-2009, 12:27 PM
Raiders benefit immensely from this too ...

Considering Al Davis didn't accept the muligan on the Javon Walker deal when he had the chance, do you really think he will cut bait with all of his guys he brought in?

They're great players. Get over it.

bronco militia
10-29-2009, 12:32 PM
Ah. I guess I didnt make the connection because I dont see Shanahan and McDaniels being the same although, like I said, you make a fair point in saying that Josh has been given enough authority do make a lot of the same mistakes Shanahan made. To me, my point ties into the current trend of Tomlin, McDaniels, Morris, Kiffin, etc. Even Tomlin openly acknowledges that they are seen as cheaper alternatives. I think the concept of value is being more closely scrutinized if the coach is going to be more of a figurehead.


I think each team has their own formula rather than following the latest trend....this offseason is going to be crazy with the non capped year and all of the succesful free agent coaches on the market. We'll see if the current trends continue.

eddie mac
10-29-2009, 12:33 PM
Hey Eddie Mac, (Or anyone else who is in the know,)

What is our dead money situation for next year looking like? (sans players on this year's roster of course.)

JCM, as previously posted in reply to Drek, because the NFL anticipated that 2010 would be uncapped, any players released in 2009, all outstanding bonuses etc hit the cap this year as did all unearned incentives to date.

Thus there is no dead money for 2010 if a player is released now or in that season unless a CBA is reached which at this point is very doubtful.

eddie mac
10-29-2009, 12:42 PM
http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?p=2406039#post2406039

I'll be updating this again sometime before Christmas but I wasn't that far off with the dead money estimate.

Dead Money for 2009

Dre Bly $9.45m
Jay Cutler $4.5m
Travis Henry $3.6m
Boss Bailey $3.44m
JJ Arrington $1.8m
Lorne Sam $13k
Garrett Hartley $13k
Alvin McKinley $625k
Keary Colbert $1.66m
Niko Koutouvides $1.33m
John Engelberger $500k
Nate Jackson $212k
Marquand Manuel $166k
Mike Leach $75k

Total $27.38m


I actually stopped updating it because it was taken off the sticky list. So hopefully when I re-do the numbers it can be kept on because there's a lot more detail that just cap room, it gives a decent breakdown of what Bowlen is spending especially what he has set against the books for next year at this point in time.

BTW The dead cap room figure Klis posted doesn't include Kern's salary which will be included now as well because any player on the roster for week 1 who gets cut during the season, their cap becomes dead as well.

TheDave
10-29-2009, 12:47 PM
Could someone explain to me how JJ Arington recieved anything when his deal was pending passing a physical?

WABronco
10-29-2009, 12:49 PM
That's just embarrassing.

bronco militia
10-29-2009, 12:51 PM
Could someone explain to me how JJ Arington recieved anything when his deal was pending passing a physical?

the broncos agreed to only pay a portion of his signing bonus pending the physical results.

IMO they ****ed that one up

TheDave
10-29-2009, 12:53 PM
the broncos agreed to only pay a portion of his signing bonus pending the physical results.

IMO they ****ed that one up

Wow... $1.8 mil for absolutely nothing.

Good work if you can get it.

bronco militia
10-29-2009, 12:54 PM
Wow... $1.8 mil for absolutely nothing.

Good work if you can get it.

it's bad enough the broncos agreed to a contract even though JJ Arington showed up on crutches

BroncoBuff
10-29-2009, 01:00 PM
BTW there is no such thing as objective every single thing is subjective to the observer.

Cross-thread contamination!!

http://www.arachnoid.com/ChildrenOfNarcissus/images/sutherland_invasion_1978.jpg

SIEZE HIM!

tsiguy96
10-29-2009, 01:07 PM
it's bad enough the broncos agreed to a contract even though JJ Arington showed up on crutches

they paid him 100k, its not a big deal.

bpc
10-29-2009, 01:08 PM
It's too bad McD and Xanders don't know what they're doing according to all of the offseason drama queens...


So how did the Broncos become such a stirring exception?

"It tells you they have a lot of quality players on rookie contracts," former NFL general manager Charley Casserly said.

"And they picked up some veterans in the offseason for not high-dollar amounts."

It's fair to say that Shanny made some questionable signings but he also is a majority of the reason that Denver has franchise talents at WR, OL, LB, and CB.

You take the good with the bad. Like I said, no excuse but Shanahan was in the middle of a rebuilding process with Jay, Clady, Marshall, Royal, Kuper, Harris, Doom, DJ, Champ among others.

bronco militia
10-29-2009, 01:10 PM
they paid him 100k, its not a big deal.

relatively speaking, yes....

but I wouldn't want to have to explain that one to Mr. B

TheDave
10-29-2009, 01:13 PM
relatively speaking, yes....

but I wouldn't want to have to explain that one to Mr. B

If they only paid him 100K then why does he count $1.8mil against the cap?

Mogulseeker
10-29-2009, 01:14 PM
Isn't the cap penalty payout all this year?

Meaning all this dead money is gone next year...

We also have Shanny's 7mil a year.... that's bad business.

This is a good thing. We should be able to resign all our stars going FA once that dead money frees up.

HEAV
10-29-2009, 01:25 PM
Shanahan left him garbage and he took it out and paid the bill. You're telling me that it's McDaniels' fault and you would have preferred we kept those guys here on the team? You want to see Marquand Manual instead of Brian Dawkins dancing around like an idiot? You think we should have kept overpaid Niko Koutouvides instead of Andra Davis so we could watch him get paid to ride the pine? Give me a freaking break.

It's a testament to how Shanahan paid for guys that sucked and paid them handsomely. Most can't even find jobs on other teams in the NFL. Saying "well McDaniels cut them so he sucks!" is ridiculous. He inherited the problem and had to clean house to make things right, which obviously he succeeded in doing.

Got to love how the Shanny-boys spin.

It's over. We have a TEAM now!

HEAV
10-29-2009, 01:28 PM
This is a good thing. We should be able to resign all our stars going FA once that dead money frees up.

Just in time for the 2011 lockout!:thumbsup:

Traveler
10-29-2009, 01:33 PM
One aspect I don't like about this is the poorly managed teams like Snyder's Redskins are receiving absolution. Instead of sleeping in their bed they made the NFL is giving them a shiny new debt free bed.

Call it the NFL Owners Bailout.:wiggle::thanku:

bronco militia
10-29-2009, 01:34 PM
If they only paid him 100K then why does he count $1.8mil against the cap?

I don't think he does


http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e97/crustyjd/20091029_011702_bronx5.jpg

TheDave
10-29-2009, 01:37 PM
I don't think he does


http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e97/crustyjd/20091029_011702_bronx5.jpg

My bad, I just went off of Eddie Mc's post...

uplink
10-29-2009, 01:41 PM
After the SB wins Shanny started bringing in players with talent who where not team players or who had issues, many times signing them to big contracts. It hurt the locker room. I wonder if he learned that lesson.
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bronco militia
10-29-2009, 01:43 PM
After the SB wins Shanny started bringing in players with talent who where not team players or who had issues, many times signing them to big contracts. It hurt the locker room. I wonder if he learned that lesson.
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shanny has always believed in giving players a 2nd chance

fontaine
10-29-2009, 01:44 PM
So Shanahan gets all the blame for the dead money contracts even though he wasn't GM and didn't negotiate those contracts?

But no credit for the talent he did leave on this team with the five horsemen of the apocalypse (OL), WRs, TEs, Champ, DJ, Peterson, Thomas etc etc?

Right got it. Let me just switch off my brain for a minute:

Err, you suck Shanny.

bronco militia
10-29-2009, 01:46 PM
So Shanahan gets all the blame for the dead money contracts.

But none of the credit that goes with the talent he did leave on this team with the five horsemen of the apocalypse (OL), WRs, TEs, Champ, DJ, Peterson, Thomas etc etc?

Right got it. Err, you suck Shanny.

it's always, black or white, left or right, and right or wrong at the Mane :thanku:

HEAV
10-29-2009, 01:48 PM
So Shanahan gets all the blame for the dead money contracts even though he wasn't GM and didn't negotiate those contracts?


Umm he was the defacto GM/CEO/Head of operations...

BroncoMan4ever
10-29-2009, 01:50 PM
I thought it was $7MM a year.

Shanny's stock is dropping like a rock IMO.

that is precisely why he will be coaching next season. if he waits any longer and with the league beginning to veer towards youth at the HC position, he may not have great opportunities being thrown at him.

gunns
10-29-2009, 01:50 PM
Shanny was terrible at bringing in Free Agents post Elway. He bombed more than he succeeded bringing FAs in. His drafts were mediocre at best sans the Goodman years of '06-'08.

Again, Shanny the GM screwed Shanny the coach most of the time.

That is so true. When Shanahan came on I so admired his free agent acquistions. Some were big names, like Neil Smith, but most were just blue collar players that other teams didn't even notice were gone, but they sure did the job for us.....Howard Griffith, Keith Traylor, Romo, Alfred Williams, Eddie Mac, Mark Schlereth, etc. After Elway he realized he'd have to show he could do it without him and it was almost as if he panicked.

I would have never guessed it would take the few players McD brought in to right this ship. It's amazing.

bronco militia
10-29-2009, 01:50 PM
http://extras.mnginteractive.com/live/media/site36/2009/1029/20091029_011508_bronx4_300.jpg

Dukes
10-29-2009, 01:51 PM
So Shanahan gets all the blame for the dead money contracts even though he wasn't GM and didn't negotiate those contracts?

But no credit for the talent he did leave on this team with the five horsemen of the apocalypse (OL), WRs, TEs, Champ, DJ, Peterson, Thomas etc etc?

Right got it. Let me just switch off my brain for a minute:

Err, you suck Shanny.

Oh please, the only person who could override Shanny was Bowlen.

bronco militia
10-29-2009, 01:54 PM
Oh please, the only person who could override Shanny was Bowlen.

same goes for McDaniels

see my previous posts on this thread

Bronco Boy
10-29-2009, 01:57 PM
http://extras.mnginteractive.com/live/media/site36/2009/1029/20091029_011508_bronx4_300.jpg

Another reason why it sucks to be Tennessee!

bronco militia
10-29-2009, 02:02 PM
Another reason why it sucks to be Tennessee!

LOL...they are the other exception

wolf754life
10-29-2009, 03:46 PM
this thread is sooo awesome...............

no more bustohan! life is good

eddie mac
10-29-2009, 04:29 PM
Could someone explain to me how JJ Arington recieved anything when his deal was pending passing a physical?

Dave, that's my bad, those were my estimates at the time because even the Post didn't know when he was cut what money was guaranteed if any. Obviously they know now.

Mogulseeker
10-29-2009, 04:54 PM
Doesn't the dead money issues mean that teams have nowhere to go but up?

Scary, when you think about the 6-0 Broncos, and sad when you think about the 0-6 Titans...