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Drek
10-26-2009, 10:53 AM
Matt Cassel spent three years under McDaniels and Brady in New England. He played multiple pre-season games in this offense, including the entire '08 pre-season with the #1's.

He didn't hit his stride until Week 10, his 8th start and 9th game behind center.

Kyle Orton has only had part of an off-season (didn't join the team until after OTAs), broke a finger on his throwing hand in the pre-season, and is now only through six starts.

Lot of potential growth left.

Pick Six
10-26-2009, 11:16 AM
Orton + the rest of the team constantly getting better as the season goes along = :lombardi:

BroncoBuff
10-26-2009, 11:19 AM
I suppose he could get better, but not much.

It's barely possible to play better than he has.

s0phr0syne
10-26-2009, 11:31 AM
I suppose he could get better, but not much.

It's barely possible to play better than he has.



Not as a diss to Orton, but I disagree with this and I have a feeling McD does too.

Orton can get way better in working his way through progressions, getting more accurate, getting stronger, better footwork, and most importantly getting a better feel for the pocket and the pass rush so that he takes fewer sacks and has fewer throwaway plays. Right now the sacks and throwaways are great because they're not turnovers, but as Orton matures in this system I expect us to have fewer zero and negative yardage plays. Of course, that's all predicated on the sustained high-level of play by the rest of the team also.

Those are just things off the top of my head, and I feel confident that the staff are at least addressing those areas and probably addressing a whole $#!t ton more.

But like the sentiment of the OP, it's great to know that Orton will hopefully only get better and that where we're at with him right now is just the tip of the iceberg. At least that's what I hope.

Drek
10-26-2009, 11:33 AM
I suppose he could get better, but not much.

It's barely possible to play better than he has.

But it is possible.

Drew Brees does it most Sundays, so does Peyton Manning. Who says Kyle Orton can't continue to advance towards that upper echelon?

Every week he's gotten better in the offense. More decisive with his reads, more accurate with his passes, more comfortable with his various targets. Consistency is a big part of where we'll see improvement. Maybe next Sunday or the one after is the first time we see him spot us an early lead, or throw for 3 or 4 TDs in a game? Lot of milestones he has yet to reach.

hades
10-26-2009, 11:34 AM
I think BroncoMcBuff was being sarcastic.

TonyR
10-26-2009, 11:35 AM
I just hope he can one day be a consistent winner like Jay Cutler. Set the bar high. That's what I say.

Bronx33
10-26-2009, 11:36 AM
I was kinda sceptical about orton he was scaring the shyt outa me with his almost picks and a complete lack of sensing pass rush pressure and moving away from it but i will admit he has steadily gotten better each game and seems to be getting a good grasp on MCDs offensive schemes, will he get better? who knows.

cutthemdown
10-26-2009, 11:39 AM
He also hasn't had his first bad game, blown play that loses game, but it's coming. Every QB does that sometimes.

I for one believe more in the system, the coaching, the overall offense then I do Orton. Don't get me wrong I love him as a Broncos, I just think our great oline, great play calling, great wr could make quite a few QBs look really good.

Most qbs don't get the time Broncos oline provides. Cutler finding out how much more important that is then he thought.

Chris
10-26-2009, 11:41 AM
He also hasn't had his first bad game, blown play that loses game, but it's coming. Every QB does that sometimes.

I for one believe more in the system, the coaching, the overall offense then I do Orton. Don't get me wrong I love him as a Broncos, I just think our great oline, great play calling, great wr could make quite a few QBs look really good.

Most qbs don't get the time Broncos oline provides. Cutler finding out how much more important that is then he thought.

If anything can be said about him it's that Orton has set the league standard for not having bad games.

BroncoBuff
10-26-2009, 11:45 AM
I think BroncoMcBuff was being sarcastic.

No, I was serious, he's been incredible. I don't have to tell you that.

And I hear what you're saying Drek and Soph, always room for improvement. But Kyle playing mistake-free, Pro-Bowl caliber football is such a huge thing for this team, I don't want to feel as though we "need more" out of him. And actually, I'd like to see us run the ball some more. I've always believed that a great defense cries out for a ball-control offense.

baja
10-26-2009, 11:45 AM
This has been a theme of mine for a while now. Orton has gotten better by leaps & bounds every week. He has proved to be both smart and calm, two attributes that in this system will give you a very high ceiling.I do believe Orton is on his way to becoming a top tier QB. Before it's all said and done I believe he will be mentioned with the Bradys & Brees' of the league. In fact I'm gonna go ahead and call it....

Kyle Orton will be MVP before he is done.

BroncoBuff
10-26-2009, 11:49 AM
Kyle Orton will be MVP before he is done.
To me this is a massively premature statement. He's not even the MVP on our team yet, give him a chance. Besides, cuts is right, at some point he he will have a bad game.

enjolras
10-26-2009, 11:52 AM
Not as a diss to Orton, but I disagree with this and I have a feeling McD does too.

Orton can get way better in working his way through progressions, getting more accurate, getting stronger, better footwork, and most importantly getting a better feel for the pocket and the pass rush so that he takes fewer sacks and has fewer throwaway plays. Right now the sacks and throwaways are great because they're not turnovers, but as Orton matures in this system I expect us to have fewer zero and negative yardage plays. Of course, that's all predicated on the sustained high-level of play by the rest of the team also.

Those are just things off the top of my head, and I feel confident that the staff are at least addressing those areas and probably addressing a whole $#!t ton more.

But like the sentiment of the OP, it's great to know that Orton will hopefully only get better and that where we're at with him right now is just the tip of the iceberg. At least that's what I hope.

:thumbs::thumbs: Yep.

Eldorado
10-26-2009, 11:56 AM
To me this is a massively premature statement. He's not even the MVP on our team yet, give him a chance. Besides, cuts is right, at some point he he will have a bad game.

http://www.codefromjames.com/wowhilarious/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/whore_mouth_cat.jpg

Rohirrim
10-26-2009, 11:57 AM
I think that one of the main skills of the "elite" QBs (Brady, Payton) is their ability to read the Ds. One of the ways they do this by spending a whole lot of time studying film. They can run through their progressions that much quicker. The thing that always amazes me about Brady is how he spreads the ball around. He has no "favorite" receiver. It's whoever is open on a particular play against a particular defense. I think Orton definitely has the skill to get to that level, especially with Josh coaching him.

baja
10-26-2009, 11:57 AM
To me this is a massively premature statement. He's not even the MVP on our team yet, give him a chance. Besides, cuts is right, at some point he he will have a bad game.

Well we all have our opinions so far this season all of mine have been right and all of yours have been wrong. Just sayin...


I would also suspect you have massively premature ejaculations but that would be better dealt with in another thread. ;D

WolfpackGuy
10-26-2009, 12:11 PM
Orton has left some plays on the field, so yeah, he can do better.

He has also exceeded my expectations of which I had none.

I would just like to see him (and the offense) start games better.

underrated29
10-26-2009, 12:18 PM
i agree my man. I was saying the same thing over at BF. For some reason i thought cassell did it in like 5-6 games. Not 10. but whatever, thats what i expect Orton to do aswell.

And you are right we are seeing it, and he is getting better each and every week.

Someone alluded to this also. He is seeing the play better and getting his reads in a lot lot faster. Before and in preseason, there were numerous plays where we could see guys wide open. And he would miss them or place the ball in not such a good way.

But as his reads get better and faster, he is also more confident of the throws and is really placing them nicely.


Sure every qb has bad games, he is not immune to that either, but one bad game does not ruin the season. If we can go 11+ wins and win a playoff game i say he could be in high contention for MVP.


Also, it appears Jmcd got the message that his stupid trap,guard pull play is not as effective and he thinks. And will be calling that play less and less, esp on short yardage. That IMO will boost the run game by a high high standard. Maybe not against the black birds as they always shut down peoples run game. But i still look for marked improvement in that aspect.


KO has made me a believer. He still struggles under pressure more than i would like. But he is climbing the mountain and the view from the top will be very pretty when he gets there.

hades
10-26-2009, 12:25 PM
Orton has left some plays on the field, so yeah, he can do better.

He has also exceeded my expectations of which I had none.

I would just like to see him (and the offense) start games better.

I miss the days when Elway would lead us to 3 or 4 first half TD's! I have faith in Orton, not flashy, but he gets the job done and the players like him.

His initials are KO for a reason! LOL

DeusExManning
10-26-2009, 12:28 PM
If Kyle Orton plays exactly at the level he is at right now, and by that I mean no interceptions and high 4th quarter efficiency, I will be supremely happy.

Pseudofool
10-26-2009, 12:34 PM
He's had just two games w/o the glove, right?

Br0nc0Buster
10-26-2009, 12:40 PM
When Kyle peaks, youre gonna feel it

He is gonna peak all over some unsuspecting team and its gonna get ugly

eddie mac
10-26-2009, 12:50 PM
No, I was serious, he's been incredible. I don't have to tell you that.

And I hear what you're saying Drek and Soph, always room for improvement. But Kyle playing mistake-free, Pro-Bowl caliber football is such a huge thing for this team, I don't want to feel as though we "need more" out of him. And actually, I'd like to see us run the ball some more. I've always believed that a great defense cries out for a ball-control offense.

I'd be surprised if we can get consistently good at running the ball this season. Moreno is only a rook, Buckhalter's first year here and the OL adjusting to the blocking schemes. They've made an excellent adjustment to the pass blocking involved in the new offense but the run-blocking will take a lot more work and possibly a different body or 2 internally, next season.

BroncoMan4ever
10-26-2009, 12:54 PM
I suppose he could get better, but not much.

It's barely possible to play better than he has.

actually he and the offense are all leaving a lot of yards and points on the field now. rhythm still hasn't fully hit yet, he is still building a rapport with his receivers and the timing on throws and routes hasn't been mastered yet.

he is playing fantastic now, but he can still get a hell of a lot better.

Drek
10-26-2009, 01:04 PM
He's had just two games w/o the glove, right?

I thought the Dallas game was the first one without it, which would be three, but still, only half the sample is representative of him without a handicap on his throwing hand.

He also hasn't had his first bad game, blown play that loses game, but it's coming. Every QB does that sometimes.

I for one believe more in the system, the coaching, the overall offense then I do Orton. Don't get me wrong I love him as a Broncos, I just think our great oline, great play calling, great wr could make quite a few QBs look really good.

Most qbs don't get the time Broncos oline provides. Cutler finding out how much more important that is then he thought.

Of course he's a recipient of some great OL play, recievers, coaching, etc.. But Kyle Orton is not the scrub he was made out to be when we first acquired him. He's more talented than Matt Cassel, by a long stretch.

People forget that heading into his senior year of college Orton was a legitimate Heisman candidate. He had some less than impressive games and Purdue as a whole fell short that year, but it doesn't change how much talent he actually has. Going into that year he was considered a far better pro prospect than Drew Brees in fact.

No, I was serious, he's been incredible. I don't have to tell you that.

And I hear what you're saying Drek and Soph, always room for improvement. But Kyle playing mistake-free, Pro-Bowl caliber football is such a huge thing for this team, I don't want to feel as though we "need more" out of him. And actually, I'd like to see us run the ball some more. I've always believed that a great defense cries out for a ball-control offense.

We don't need more out of him, but I think we can get more out of him. More yards, more big plays, more points. Orton's QB rating looks good now, sure, but we only just peaked into the top 10 in yards per game and we're tied for 17th in points per game. I know McDaniels expects top 10 in both categories, preferably top 5, and I think Orton can deliver that given the chance.

That doesn't mean we won't be a hard running, ball control team though. Just that more drives need to end in 7, especially in the first half.

Right now all the teams we're facing have been looking to shut down the running game and daring Orton to beat them. So far he has, and some good defenses haven't been as successful as I'm sure they hoped at stopping our rushers. As teams begin to respect Orton more it'll open up the run lanes better, but at that point Orton needs to keep making plays and avoiding mistakes too.

Then this offense can get real exciting.

Mediator12
10-26-2009, 02:21 PM
Kyle has not been in this system long enough, has not had enough career starts, has not been able to physically throw the ball as much as he needs this year, not seen enough tape of opponents in the AFC to really be the player he can become. He has left a LOT out on the field while still playing well past the majority of fans expectations.

Right now, DEN is still throwing new plays Orton has not executed into the gameplan every week and relying very little on staple plays to execute the offense. That is one of the main reasons they struggle at the beginning of games and drives. They are not sure how defenses will react to said plays and they struggle with execution NOT knowing and still having to read every play. In the second half and fourth quarter particularly, DEN does figure out what will work and has a ton of confidence in execution.

This is one of the differences that Orton has with some of the Elite QB's like Manning, Brady, Brees, and Warner who can start super hot right out of the gate. They have all kinds of stability in their offense and can audible to plays they KNOW will work from the beginning. The difference being they also have outstanding coaching to make those 4th quarter comebacks as well.

It will be real hard for Orton to come out on fire, in this current offense, until he gets the familiarity that those Elite QB's have. For right now though, what he is doing is extraordinary. And, he has a lot of room to grow.

Orange_Beard
10-26-2009, 02:23 PM
To me this is a massively premature statement. He's not even the MVP on our team yet, give him a chance. Besides, cuts is right, at some point he he will have a bad game.

Crazy, we are 6 games in.....

Kaylore
10-26-2009, 02:28 PM
It is comforting knowing that not only is he learning a new system, he has never played with any of the starters before and so the chemistry and potential for growth are all still there and there's a ton of room to improve. They say it takes most players three years to really master the nuances of an NFL system, so six games into this one, it's easy for most people (unless you are that blathering idiot Broncoracist07) to see that he's going to improve every game.

I think next year you will see a significant jump in production.

Rock Chalk
10-26-2009, 02:29 PM
For the life of me I cannot understand how Buff truly believes that Orton isn't going to get any better.

Beantown Bronco
10-26-2009, 02:29 PM
When Kyle peaks, youre gonna feel it

He is gonna peak all over some unsuspecting team and its gonna get ugly

That just reads all sorts of wrong.

Mogulseeker
10-26-2009, 02:34 PM
Not as a diss to Orton, but I disagree with this and I have a feeling McD does too.

Orton can get way better in working his way through progressions, getting more accurate, getting stronger, better footwork, and most importantly getting a better feel for the pocket and the pass rush so that he takes fewer sacks and has fewer throwaway plays. Right now the sacks and throwaways are great because they're not turnovers, but as Orton matures in this system I expect us to have fewer zero and negative yardage plays. Of course, that's all predicated on the sustained high-level of play by the rest of the team also.

Those are just things off the top of my head, and I feel confident that the staff are at least addressing those areas and probably addressing a whole $#!t ton more.

But like the sentiment of the OP, it's great to know that Orton will hopefully only get better and that where we're at with him right now is just the tip of the iceberg. At least that's what I hope.

Solid post. This is one thing I noticed at the Pats game - the main difference between Brady and Orton is footwork.

Orton has surprised me with his arm and accuracy, but I actually expected a better pocket presence from him. I have noticed improvements over the weeks, but there is still room for improvement in this regard.

Atwater His Ass
10-26-2009, 04:32 PM
Matt Cassel spent three years under McDaniels and Brady in New England. He played multiple pre-season games in this offense, including the entire '08 pre-season with the #1's.

He didn't hit his stride until Week 10, his 8th start and 9th game behind center.

Kyle Orton has only had part of an off-season (didn't join the team until after OTAs), broke a finger on his throwing hand in the pre-season, and is now only through six starts.

Lot of potential growth left.

huh? i mean maybe, but Orton's what, a 5 year vet? he doesn't really have a lot of room for growth. he is what he is, and imo, although he may improve a bit, this is pretty much it. Cassell was a guy who, prior to Brady going down, never played, so nobody really knew what he could do. Cassell and Orton are two very different situations.

I don't understand the Orton love and Cutler hate when just talking about the offense (step away from the drama for a minute). This offense is worse than last year. It has the same problem as last year, i.e., can move the ball between the 20s, but can't score (~9th in yards and ~17th in scoring). And they don't move the all between the 20s as good as last years offense.

People screamed bloody murder about the lack of the team last year to put points on the board, but now this year it isn't a problem? Take the blinders off.

I know people are blinded by the 6-0 start, but offense had very little to do with just about any of those wins. They do their part by not turning the ball over too much, but production wise, it's just been average.

Broncomutt
10-26-2009, 04:39 PM
huh? i mean maybe, but Orton's what, a 5 year vet? he doesn't really have a lot of room for growth. he is what he is, and imo, although he may improve a bit, this is pretty much it. Cassell was a guy who, prior to Brady going down, never played, so nobody really knew what he could do. Cassell and Orton are two very different situations.

I don't understand the Orton love and Cutler hate when just talking about the offense (step away from the drama for a minute). This offense is worse than last year. It has the same problem as last year, i.e., can move the ball between the 20s, but can't score (~9th in yards and ~17th in scoring). And they don't move the all between the 20s as good as last years offense.

People screamed bloody murder about the lack of the team last year to put points on the board, but now this year it isn't a problem? Take the blinders off.

I know people are blinded by the 6-0 start, but offense had very little to do with just about any of those wins. They do their part by not turning the ball over too much, but production wise, it's just been average.

Hey Ass...if I may call you that for short? Ass?

Learn what turnovers are and how they effect the score.

baja
10-26-2009, 04:47 PM
Hey Ass...if I may call you that for short? Ass?

Learn what turnovers are and how they effect the score.

Actually the proper way to write his name is;

Atwater, his ass.

and he did agree with this but said he gets lazy to make the comma.

cutthemdown
10-26-2009, 04:51 PM
If anything can be said about him it's that Orton has set the league standard for not having bad games.

I'm just hoping we are the sort of fans that cheer even harder the Sunday after our first loss. I worry a couple bad games and people will implode.

Orton though I said from the beginning seemed better then what media said. His TD to Int ratio always been good. Injury problems hurt him in CHicago where maybe his slow footed methodical style didn't mesh with the crappy oline.

Orton seems comfy in Denver and who knows, maybe he plays this good for yrs to come. Wouldn't that be a huge bonus for the Broncos.

cutthemdown
10-26-2009, 04:52 PM
huh? i mean maybe, but Orton's what, a 5 year vet? he doesn't really have a lot of room for growth. he is what he is, and imo, although he may improve a bit, this is pretty much it. Cassell was a guy who, prior to Brady going down, never played, so nobody really knew what he could do. Cassell and Orton are two very different situations.

I don't understand the Orton love and Cutler hate when just talking about the offense (step away from the drama for a minute). This offense is worse than last year. It has the same problem as last year, i.e., can move the ball between the 20s, but can't score (~9th in yards and ~17th in scoring). And they don't move the all between the 20s as good as last years offense.

People screamed bloody murder about the lack of the team last year to put points on the board, but now this year it isn't a problem? Take the blinders off.

I know people are blinded by the 6-0 start, but offense had very little to do with just about any of those wins. They do their part by not turning the ball over too much, but production wise, it's just been average.

Qbs like Gannon, Plunkett are 2 that come to mind that really were better there last 5 yrs in the nfl then they were there first.

Drew Brees seems to get better each yr.

Elway go smarter later on and that helped his game some.

elsid13
10-26-2009, 04:55 PM
It a long season, let see what happens as defenses adopt to what Denver is trying to do and force Orton into throws he not comfortable with. There have been mistakes and a lot points have been left on the field, maybe those points will come with experience, but maybe they won't

baja
10-26-2009, 05:02 PM
It a long season, let see what happens as defenses adopt to what Denver is trying to do and force Orton into throws he not comfortable with. There have been mistakes and a lot points have been left on the field, maybe those points will come with experience, but maybe they won't

You know I hear that all the time, "a lot points have been left on the field, " can you tell me exactly where those points are, I have looked at the field carefully after the game and have never seen any points laying around. Thank You in advance.

elsid13
10-26-2009, 05:11 PM
You know I hear that all the time, "a lot points have been left on the field, " can you tell me exactly where those points are, I have looked at the field carefully after the game and have never seen any points laying around. Thank You in advance.

"We are past my bad" - McDaniels

outdoor_miner
10-26-2009, 05:18 PM
It a long season, let see what happens as defenses adopt to what Denver is trying to do and force Orton into throws he not comfortable with. There have been mistakes and a lot points have been left on the field, maybe those points will come with experience, but maybe they won't

This post reminds me so much of your negativity from the offseason (although - to be fair, the post isn't THAT negative, but I definitely get a sense that you are trying to rain on the parade).

So - here we are confronted with a question. The Broncos have been middle of the pack offensively so far this year. Will they get better? We fans can either be hopeful that they will improve, or dubious that they will implode. A lot of people see reason for optimism. We are only 6 games into a brand new offensive scheme. Orton has played better than expected. Not only that, he *looks* better than expected. He does not have a "noodle arm". He's shown good pocket awareness. He's even come through in the clutch numerous times. He played the first 4 games with a severe hand injury, and has looked great now that he's fully recovered. Furthermore - we also have a coach known for his offensive prowess. He contributed to one of the greatest offenses in NFL history. Lastly - our offense has shot itself in the foot many times in the beginning of the season with bad penalties ... something that is absolutely correctable.

So - given all of this, you see no reason for optimism that Orton and the offense can play better the remainder of the year?

Mediator12
10-26-2009, 05:47 PM
For the life of me I cannot understand how Buff truly believes that Orton isn't going to get any better.

You need to work on your people skills ;D

I would say some people already think Orton is playing well beyond his natural talent ability. These would be the same people who are enamored with hard throwing QB's, over mentally tough QB's.

How many Jamarcus Russel, Ryan Leaf, Jeff George, Kyle Boller, Tim Couch, Akili Smith, and Patrick Ramsey type QB's do we have to suffer through to learn the Best NFL QB's are more mentally tough than hard throwing?

The top QB's in the NFL today are not that hard throwing type. Manning, Brady, Brees, and Warner do not throw the hardest of the current NFL QB's. However, they can dissect defenses before the play begins because they are mentally better than the guy who can throw the ball like a laser. They put the ball in the right place, at the right time, where the defense has little chance to do anything about it. They manipulate defenses, rather than trying to force things that are not there.

Orton is potentially one of those guys. He will never be confused with an elite armed QB, but he can still make all the throws. In fact, he can already do it better than most of the hard throwers in the NFL today. I think he can be as productive right now as say a Matt Shaub.

elsid13
10-26-2009, 05:49 PM
This post reminds me so much of your negativity from the offseason (although - to be fair, the post isn't THAT negative, but I definitely get a sense that you are trying to rain on the parade).

So - here we are confronted with a question. The Broncos have been middle of the pack offensively so far this year. Will they get better? We fans can either be hopeful that they will improve, or dubious that they will implode. A lot of people see reason for optimism. We are only 6 games into a brand new offensive scheme. Orton has played better than expected. Not only that, he *looks* better than expected. He does not have a "noodle arm". He's shown good pocket awareness. He's even come through in the clutch numerous times. He played the first 4 games with a severe hand injury, and has looked great now that he's fully recovered. Furthermore - we also have a coach known for his offensive prowess. He contributed to one of the greatest offenses in NFL history. Lastly - our offense has shot itself in the foot many times in the beginning of the season with bad penalties ... something that is absolutely correctable.

So - given all of this, you see no reason for optimism that Orton and the offense can play better the remainder of the year?

I understand why people are extremely excited to praise Orton and his play, especial with discord that many felt with the way the Cutler thing turned out. But I think folks need to let the season play out and see what happens when other teams get tape on how Orton operates in this system. What make great QB is his ability to adjust and win when other teams force him out of his comfort zone. Right now, the offense line and system have given Orton breathing room to look good. Later in the season the systemic advantages go away and comes down to talent.

My assessment of Orton remains the same when he came here. He's QB that need line to keep him clean, he struggles when forced to move in the pocket, his arm is average for NFL QB, so it very important that he gets his timing down because he can not wait for WR to come uncovered. He throws a catch-able ball, but struggle with his mid and deep accuracy. McDaniels has done excellent job of his footwork, but there are times he doesn't set his feet right and ball wobbles into the ground. I also think that he checks down to much and doesn't trust his arm to make the hard throw over the middle of the field.

Right now he give the best option to win, but that doesn't mean that McDaniels will not look for better option next season.

Meck77
10-26-2009, 05:58 PM
Well why stop the "peaking" speculation at just Orton. What about another year or two of experience for Ayers, moreno, clady, royal, A Smith and even Marshall now that he appears to have his head on straight. As well as McD has done thus far as head coach even he has room for improvement coming into next season. The future sure feels pretty bright.

rastaman
10-26-2009, 06:04 PM
I suppose he could get better, but not much.

It's barely possible to play better than he has.

Thats why during the FA period Orton is going to make the most out of how successfull he was during to 09 season. He may never be in a great financial situation again. He knows he suffer a season ending injury on any play and he also knows the "Cutler" factor could come knocking on his door with sudden trade or benching from McDaniels. So why not get paid as much as he can, KO has a wife and future family to consider. PAY THE BROTHER!:sunshine:

rastaman
10-26-2009, 06:08 PM
Well why stop the "peaking" speculation at just Orton. What about another year or two of experience for Ayers, moreno, clady, royal, A Smith and even Marshall now that he appears to have his head on straight. As well as McD has done thus far as head coach even he has room for improvement coming into next season. The future sure feels pretty bright.

Yes, but with peaking! comes with the baggage of demanding and expecting more money and guaranteed signing bonuses. For the smart business minded players in the 21st Century making money/millions out weighs winning and loyalty. After all, when players are no longer peaking......they become useless to the fans and the organization and the players.

outdoor_miner
10-26-2009, 10:11 PM
I understand why people are extremely excited to praise Orton and his play, especial with discord that many felt with the way the Cutler thing turned out. But I think folks need to let the season play out and see what happens when other teams get tape on how Orton operates in this system. What make great QB is his ability to adjust and win when other teams force him out of his comfort zone. Right now, the offense line and system have given Orton breathing room to look good. Later in the season the systemic advantages go away and comes down to talent.

My assessment of Orton remains the same when he came here. He's QB that need line to keep him clean, he struggles when forced to move in the pocket, his arm is average for NFL QB, so it very important that he gets his timing down because he can not wait for WR to come uncovered. He throws a catch-able ball, but struggle with his mid and deep accuracy. McDaniels has done excellent job of his footwork, but there are times he doesn't set his feet right and ball wobbles into the ground. I also think that he checks down to much and doesn't trust his arm to make the hard throw over the middle of the field.

Right now he give the best option to win, but that doesn't mean that McDaniels will not look for better option next season.

First - good post. :)

Second - I agree somewhat about the systemic advantages going away as the season goes along. However, the good news is that McDaniels is (supposedly) a great offensive mind, so hopefully, he will continue to be able to "out scheme" defenses (like Shanahan was able to do for the most part). Furthermore - we are now in a part of a season where teams have a pretty good amount of tape on the Broncos. We just had a nice game against the Chargers, who had a bye week to prepare against the system. The last two games have given me a lot of hope. The Pats know McD's offense inside and out, and the Chargers had 2 weeks to prepare, but the offense still looked very good these last two games. I personally think the offense is ready to "explode" one of these weeks, but we'll see...

As for Orton... I'm definitely not a scout. However - the guy looks like he has the tools to be a very good quarterback. Like I said before, his arm looks good enough to me. Definitely not near the top in the league, but I don't think that's necessary. I've actually been impressed by how he's moved in the pocket the last 3 games... He's even made a few nice plays where he slid out of the pocket, and hit a receiver without setting his feet. I like how he's standing tall in the pocket. He looks confident. I just think he has the ability to be one of those guys who always makes the right decision and hits the open receiver. Honestly - he reminds me of early/mid 2000s Tom Brady. I know I'll probably be ridiculed, but that's what I've seen the last couple games. Now - I will readily admit that he needs to keep this up over the entire season. Many average quarterbacks have looked just like Elway or Montana or Manning for a game or two. The real test is doing it week in and week out. If he comes out the next couple weeks and ****s the bed, well then, he may not be consistent enough to lead this team to the Super Bowl. I just have some hope with McDaniels, who seems to be a real quarterback guru.

Lastly - I agree with you 100% that McDaniels will not hesitate to replace Orton if he thinks there is someone out there that can do a better job. It will be interesting to see.

BroncoBuff
10-26-2009, 10:15 PM
For the life of me I cannot understand how Buff truly believes that Orton isn't going to get any better.

For the life of me I cannot understand why you respond without actually reading my posts.

broncocalijohn
10-27-2009, 12:25 AM
Hey Ass...if I may call you that for short? Ass?

Learn what turnovers are and how they effect the score.

he cant. If you go back to his posts from before the preseason and around the draft, you can see his liking to attach his mouth to cutler's gonads. Orton was in a completely different system that looks to me it did not exploit his strengths. He is getting that chance with the Broncos so why not have an upside way more than what he has shown us? His TD to Int cant be much improved and I am totally fine with that, but other intangibles will still be sought out and perfected. Those that hated on him or loved Cutler too much, just cant forsee that there is a guy in town that is actually better and possibly will always be better than their Jay.

BossChief
10-27-2009, 04:01 AM
I think for anyone to expect Orton to play at a higher level than he has displayed so far is ultrahomer.

He is what he is, a game managing winner.

Broncosfreak_56
10-27-2009, 04:09 AM
I think for anyone to expect Orton to play at a higher level than he has displayed so far is ultrahomer.

He is what he is, a game managing winner.

Is that what he is, or what people perceive he is? Anyone has room for improvement.

Hulamau
10-27-2009, 04:15 AM
No, I was serious, he's been incredible. I don't have to tell you that.

And I hear what you're saying Drek and Soph, always room for improvement. But Kyle playing mistake-free, Pro-Bowl caliber football is such a huge thing for this team, I don't want to feel as though we "need more" out of him. And actually, I'd like to see us run the ball some more. I've always believed that a great defense cries out for a ball-control offense.

Its not only Orton who will improve the whole offsense and defense too for that matter. That they are playing at such a high level so early is astounding.

But Orton has the smarts that not a lot of other QBs have and that is what makes him such a good fit here. AS his WRs and RB all get more accustomed to each other so that know each others tendencies in their sleep and get the ins and outs of this intricate offense down pat its gonna be real fun to watch them dominate on both sides of the ball!

If we can keep the injuries to a minimum I expect a much improved team in all the little things that makes such a difference by the end of the year.

Let alone next year after two full off-seasons and this whole year of live bullets under their belt ... Cant wait to see that Plus the new talent Josh brings in from the Drat and FA to fill any holes that show up throughput the year. Next year should be a real blast as well! And no way will the schedule be THIS insane!

Drek
10-27-2009, 05:01 AM
Well why stop the "peaking" speculation at just Orton. What about another year or two of experience for Ayers, moreno, clady, royal, A Smith and even Marshall now that he appears to have his head on straight. As well as McD has done thus far as head coach even he has room for improvement coming into next season. The future sure feels pretty bright.

Of course, they're young and the general concensus is that we can expect them to improve with time.

Orton is actually only 26, but people act like he's a vet retread, and assume he's playing out of his skin right now, case in point:

huh? i mean maybe, but Orton's what, a 5 year vet? he doesn't really have a lot of room for growth. he is what he is, and imo, although he may improve a bit, this is pretty much it. Cassell was a guy who, prior to Brady going down, never played, so nobody really knew what he could do. Cassell and Orton are two very different situations.
Many football players, especially quarterbacks, are late bloomers. Rich Gannon, one of Orton's best comps, is an example of this.

I don't understand the Orton love and Cutler hate when just talking about the offense (step away from the drama for a minute). This offense is worse than last year. It has the same problem as last year, i.e., can move the ball between the 20s, but can't score (~9th in yards and ~17th in scoring). And they don't move the all between the 20s as good as last years offense.
1. you say with 5 years in he is what he is, well what about Cutler? He's 4 years in so is he what he is as well? If not that seems like the height of hypocrisy.

2. Our defense would probably have much better numbers if they had 3 or 4 more possessions a game, like last year's team did. This team is just now starting to click offensively though, so why not give them a whole season to see just how good they can be? It might just surprise you.

People screamed bloody murder about the lack of the team last year to put points on the board, but now this year it isn't a problem? Take the blinders off.

I know people are blinded by the 6-0 start, but offense had very little to do with just about any of those wins. They do their part by not turning the ball over too much, but production wise, it's just been average.
Not turning the ball over and putting more points on the board than the other team. That is the job of the offense. They've done it pretty well so far.

The offense did very little in those wins but we dropped 34 on our strongest division rival in their house and before that Kyle Orton won offensive player of the week for the AFC.

Some people just want to be a doubting Thomas. Orton will have bad games this season, and I'm sure you'll crow about how he's nothing more than a stop gap game manager then. You'll also probably be strangely silent when he steps up big down the stretch to lock up the playoffs for us with more 100 QB rating games.

BossChief
10-27-2009, 05:46 AM
Is that what he is, or what people perceive he is? Anyone has room for improvement.

I like Orton, Im a big ten guy and always knew he wouldnt light it up in the NFL, but that he would win games, or at least not lose them if that makes sense.

I dont know if he can get a whole lot better, I think the players around him can play much better. I KNOW that. All of them. But I dont see him being a heave it 50 yards in the air 7 or 8 times a game like the other Purdue kid, Brees. They are different QBs.

There is nothing wrong with that.

You mentioned "what people perceive him as" well that is what he is, he finds the open receiver and doesnt give the ball away. That is 95% of what it takes to win big games.

He has the talent to flourish in that enviorment.

He has a line that will allow him to go through progressions effectively for the foreseeable future and the weapons to hurt people when he finds them.

Part of me wants you guys to self explode, and part wants you guys to fullfill expectations because when we get good, I want to see some special games...not a couple 8-8 teams battling it out...

Ill never forget the monday night game awhile back when Willie Davis caught the game winner and kept it inside the pylon.

Those are the games that make it fun to be a fan.

Mediator12
10-27-2009, 06:41 AM
I think for anyone to expect Orton to play at a higher level than he has displayed so far is ultrahomer.

He is what he is, a game managing winner.

So was Tom Brady the first 2 SB's. NE won on defense and Adam Vinatieri kicks. Now, Tom Brady has surpassed the "game manager" Label. Remember, he had a 6th round arm and Skills coming out of college. 2 other QB's played in front of him at Michigan.

So, to blindly state that Orton can NOT play at a higher level than he is right now is extremely self Serving. Will he continue to get better? That is a better question. He shows all the signs that superior QB's have with preparation, extra practice, taking criticism and turning it into execution. That does not mean he will get better, but I like his chances with McDaniels system and attention to detail.

Just like I thought Cutler would regress in CHI without a top QB coach and superior offensive talent to work him through his weaknesses.

BossChief
10-27-2009, 09:05 AM
So was Tom Brady the first 2 SB's. NE won on defense and Adam Vinatieri kicks. Now, Tom Brady has surpassed the "game manager" Label. Remember, he had a 6th round arm and Skills coming out of college. 2 other QB's played in front of him at Michigan.

So, to blindly state that Orton can NOT play at a higher level than he is right now is extremely self Serving. Will he continue to get better? That is a better question. He shows all the signs that superior QB's have with preparation, extra practice, taking criticism and turning it into execution. That does not mean he will get better, but I like his chances with McDaniels system and attention to detail.

Just like I thought Cutler would regress in CHI without a top QB coach and superior offensive talent to work him through his weaknesses.

I dont want to seem like a troll because Im not one, but really, are you trying to compare Kyle Orton to Tom Brady?

Dont make the mistake of setting him up for failure by setting the bar too high for him.

People did that with Plummer the day he got to town, comparing him with Elway....it didnt even matter that his last full year as starter he took you guys to the afc championship game...he wasnt Elway so he was ran out of town for a rookie when he had a good w/l record at the time.

Same with Cutler, the poor kid couldnt get out from the pressure no matter how hard Shannahan tried to take the pressure from him.

Thinking Orton will become Brady is somewhat unrealistic IMHO.

Maybe Im wrong, but I have seen him play since his college years and he is about the same guy now as he was back then.

baja
10-27-2009, 09:08 AM
At least we are not measuring Orton to Elway

The Joker
10-27-2009, 09:27 AM
I don't think anyone is saying Orton will become Tom Brady, rather that it's entirely common for QB's to take big developmental steps even after their first 4 or 5 years in the league.

Orton has massive potential to improve, especially with McDaniels in charge.

He's playing with entirely new teammates on offense, no way he's reached his optimum level of chemistry with them. As this improves, his production should too.

I also doubt he's anywhere near 100% comfortable with the system yet, as he plays in it more he should be able to find the open man even more than he has been doing so far. The more you run a play in real games, the more familiar you'll become with how defenses will react to it, and thus will know better where to go with the ball against various coverages.

The rest of the offense are also still adjusting to the new scheme as well, as they become more familiar with it that'll only help Kyle too.

Of course it's no gaurantee that he'll improve much more above his current level, some players have ceilings that they're just not going to be able to burst through.

But from what we've seen of Orton so far there's nothing to suggest he's anywhere near his ceiling, he's improved every single week he's been out there and my guess is he'll be universally considered one of the top 10 QB's in the league within the next couple of years.

Br0nc0Buster
10-27-2009, 10:10 AM
I dont want to seem like a troll because Im not one, but really, are you trying to compare Kyle Orton to Tom Brady?

Dont make the mistake of setting him up for failure by setting the bar too high for him.

People did that with Plummer the day he got to town, comparing him with Elway....it didnt even matter that his last full year as starter he took you guys to the afc championship game...he wasnt Elway so he was ran out of town for a rookie when he had a good w/l record at the time.

Same with Cutler, the poor kid couldnt get out from the pressure no matter how hard Shannahan tried to take the pressure from him.

Thinking Orton will become Brady is somewhat unrealistic IMHO.

Maybe Im wrong, but I have seen him play since his college years and he is about the same guy now as he was back then.

He was a Heisman candidate at one point, so no "game manager" does not describe what he did in college

Didnt you also pick the Chiefs to win this past Sunday?
Perhaps you should just stick to talking about what you know, whatever that may be

TailgateNut
10-27-2009, 10:22 AM
He was a Heisman candidate at one point, so no "game manager" does not describe what he did in college

Didnt you also pick the Chiefs to win this past Sunday?
Perhaps you should just stick to talking about what you know, whatever that may be

:spit:

Inkana7
10-27-2009, 10:25 AM
At least we are not measuring Orton to Elway

Neither is Orton.

55CrushEm
10-27-2009, 10:29 AM
That just reads all sorts of wrong.

LOL I was thinking the same thing.

BroncoBuff
10-27-2009, 10:34 AM
Drek, AHA has some good points there ... the points and yardage output of this offense is almost identical to last year's offense (though 6 games is a small sample size). The difference this year is definitely the defense. And yes, we scored 34 against San Diego, but 14 of those were special teams.

I agree with you now that Orton is the guy, even for the long-term. But let's at least compare apples to apples. If Slowick had fielded this defense, we'd have made the playoffs with room to spare.

BossChief
10-27-2009, 10:40 AM
He was a Heisman candidate at one point, so no "game manager" does not describe what he did in college

Didnt you also pick the Chiefs to win this past Sunday?
Perhaps you should just stick to talking about what you know, whatever that may be

I bet you knew your team would be 6-0 at this point too huh?

Welcome to the nfl any given sunday.

Im not here to having a pissing match with anyone.

I am being very fair and realistic about Orton.

But, please do set him up for unrealistic expectations as has been the case with all previous qbs after Elway.

TheReverend
10-27-2009, 10:44 AM
http://www.innocentenglish.com/funny-pics/cute-puppy-kitten-pics/kitten-frog-hat.jpg

underrated29
10-27-2009, 10:47 AM
There is no reason to think he cant and wont get better. We know what last years offense did. We have all those same pieces, but with more exp. Plus, we added a great #3 in gaffney and got knowshon.

To think with the wr set we have, the TE set we have, the Sheild of OL that we have and the Great RB we have and our offense will not get better. And/or Orton will not get better is crazy.

We have seen the offense better than this. So it is possible. THis is also EVERONES first time in the system. A whopping 6 games. (cept gaff). I dont think its fair to say anyone can not or will not get better after only having played 6 games.

This offense will get a lot lot better. Orton along with it.

BossChief
10-27-2009, 10:53 AM
I can see it already, two or three years from now half of this board will be calling for his head because he is a game manager.

12 wins and an afc championship wont be enough because of ____________________________<-----------------insert unrealistic expectation here

Br0nc0Buster
10-27-2009, 10:59 AM
I bet you knew your team would be 6-0 at this point too huh?

Welcome to the nfl any given sunday.

Im not here to having a pissing match with anyone.

I am being very fair and realistic about Orton.

But, please do set him up for unrealistic expectations as has been the case with all previous qbs after Elway.

not really, you said you watched him in college and he is the same player now that he was then, which you say is a "game manager"
If Kyle Orton was a game manager in college, then so was Drew Brees who he tied the record for most passing yards in a game with for Purdue

And Tom Brady never threw 30 TDs until 07 and only threw over 4000 yards once
He had roughly a 2 to 1 TD to Int ratio and got to where he is by playing smart football

No one is saying Kyle will be as good as Tom Brady, but he playing the same style of football that helped Brady and the Pats get 3 rings

BossChief
10-27-2009, 11:20 AM
not really, you said you watched him in college and he is the same player now that he was then, which you say is a "game manager"
If Kyle Orton was a game manager in college, then so was Drew Brees who he tied the record for most passing yards in a game with for Purdue

And Tom Brady never threw 30 TDs until 07 and only threw over 4000 yards once
He had roughly a 2 to 1 TD to Int ratio and got to where he is by playing smart football

No one is saying Kyle will be as good as Tom Brady, but he playing the same style of football that helped Brady and the Pats get 3 rings

here we go

Tom Brady won a superbowl in his first year starting, with a 5-11 team the previous year.

He didnt throw more than 30 td passes until he had Moss. You know Moss, arguably the best deep threat to ever play the game.

I guess you just have to watch the games.

If a game manager throws a few five yard passes that the receiver breaks tackles and sprints for huge gainers, he can easily have huge games.

Matt Cassel was the first player in NFL history to have back to back 400 yard games...and yet all year he only completed 2 passes that went over 21 yards in the air! How is that you may ask? Its because of rac yards.

In case you find this hard to believe or feel I am making stuff up, here is a link to see for yourself:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/splits?playerId=8644

He did it by being a "game manager" and his receivers having huge rac yards. So dont always depend on stats of big games as the deciding factor that you have a HOFer at QB after 6 games.

Fair enough?

Br0nc0Buster
10-27-2009, 11:54 AM
here we go

Tom Brady won a superbowl in his first year starting, with a 5-11 team the previous year.

He didnt throw more than 30 td passes until he had Moss. You know Moss, arguably the best deep threat to ever play the game.

I guess you just have to watch the games.

If a game manager throws a few five yard passes that the receiver breaks tackles and sprints for huge gainers, he can easily have huge games.

Matt Cassel was the first player in NFL history to have back to back 400 yard games...and yet all year he only completed 2 passes that went over 21 yards in the air! How is that you may ask? Its because of rac yards.

In case you find this hard to believe or feel I am making stuff up, here is a link to see for yourself:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/splits?playerId=8644

He did it by being a "game manager" and his receivers having huge rac yards. So dont always depend on stats of big games as the deciding factor that you have a HOFer at QB after 6 games.

Fair enough?

Im not using stats, Im saying the opposite.
That Kyle, like Tom Brady in the early 00s, isnt gonna rack up huge numbers, but he is capable of making smart plays and being an effective and efficient quarterback.

Some throw the term "game manager" around like an insult to imply because he doesnt throw 300 yards a game that he is incapable of doing it

Again not saying he can replicate Bradys success, but it is possible he can become a very solid qb playing in a successful system that enhances his stengths

BossChief
10-27-2009, 12:09 PM
Im not using stats, Im saying the opposite.
That Kyle, like Tom Brady in the early 00s, isnt gonna rack up huge numbers, but he is capable of making smart plays and being an effective and efficient quarterback.

Some throw the term "game manager" around like an insult to imply because he doesnt throw 300 yards a game that he is incapable of doing it

Again not saying he can replicate Bradys success, but it is possible he can become a very solid qb playing in a successful system that enhances his stengths

So, were on the same page now then, good.

Game manager is a good term, only foolish fans think it isnt.

Orton will always be good for between 220-300 yards and more tds than ints.

just because my username says Chiefs on it doesnt mean I am attacking Orton, I have said multiple times that I am and have been a fan of his.

He has patience and doesnt rush things, he takes what is given and makes sound decisions.

Like I said earlier in this thread, that is 95% of what it takes to win big games in the playoffs.

Rohirrim
10-27-2009, 12:24 PM
Drek, AHA has some good points there ... the points and yardage output of this offense is almost identical to last year's offense (though 6 games is a small sample size). The difference this year is definitely the defense. And yes, we scored 34 against San Diego, but 14 of those were special teams.

I agree with you now that Orton is the guy, even for the long-term. But let's at least compare apples to apples. If Slowick had fielded this defense, we'd have made the playoffs with room to spare.

Slowik "field" this defense? Hell, Slowik couldn't even explain this defense.

TheReverend
10-27-2009, 12:59 PM
I like this thread's theme, but I'm certainly not concerned with thinking about Orton peaking.

I'm concerned about him consistently playing like he has the last two weeks vs NE and SD. If he does that, we can win any and every game.

underrated29
10-27-2009, 01:04 PM
Slowik "field" this defense? Hell, Slowik couldn't even explain this defense.

Bingo!

Slowick is the biggest disgrace to football that has ever been seen. I am dead serious too.

Drek
10-27-2009, 01:06 PM
Drek, AHA has some good points there ... the points and yardage output of this offense is almost identical to last year's offense (though 6 games is a small sample size). The difference this year is definitely the defense. And yes, we scored 34 against San Diego, but 14 of those were special teams.

I agree with you now that Orton is the guy, even for the long-term. But let's at least compare apples to apples. If Slowick had fielded this defense, we'd have made the playoffs with room to spare.

AHA's points are all the same "great QBs are born, not made" bull**** that simply don't hold water.

And FYI, our offense did put up 20 points on their own the last time they stepped on the field, short two possessions. How do we know Orton wouldn't have driven down the field and put up seven each of those times if given the ball? He moved it down the field pretty easily in the second half.

We had a complete overhaul of offensive systems and have changed the entire backfield. Last year's team was basically a return of almost the entire 2007 squad. The fact that this team is on pace to put up as many points as the '08 squad is more an indictment of the '08 squad than the '09 squad.

As for the defense last year versus this year: Maybe last year's D wouldn't have looked quite so bad if they didn't have a QB who turned the ball over on average about twice a game?

Great defenses almost always show up opposite QBs who don't put them in bad positions, and almost as frequently opposite an offense that can eat clock. We've got both and suddenly our defense looks pretty good.

BossChief
10-27-2009, 01:08 PM
I like this thread's theme, but I'm certainly not concerned with thinking about Orton peaking.

I'm concerned about him consistently playing like he has the last two weeks vs NE and SD. If he does that, we can win any and every game.

and there you go! Very good post!

Mediator12
10-27-2009, 01:20 PM
So, were on the same page now then, good.

Game manager is a good term, only foolish fans think it isnt.

Orton will always be good for between 220-300 yards and more tds than ints.

just because my username says Chiefs on it doesnt mean I am attacking Orton, I have said multiple times that I am and have been a fan of his.

He has patience and doesnt rush things, he takes what is given and makes sound decisions.

Like I said earlier in this thread, that is 95% of what it takes to win big games in the playoffs.

That is what Tom Brady has been in NE for many years, a game manager. Yet, he was a game manager for a team that was elite around him. NE had a very tough defense and an efficient, not dominant offense, in their superbowl winning years. That changed in their SB loss year. Their defense was in decline and their Offense was almost unstoppable.

If you are a Big Ten fan, which I am and have seen countless Purdue games in the Tiller era since I live an hour away, then you will remember that Brady was benched twice at MICH. Once For Griese, and once for Drew Henson. Orton was a four year starter for Purdue. You will also see that Brady has certainly evolved and developed since his MICH years. Orton is just beginning to get there and like his fellow Purdue alumnus Drew Brees it took him a few years in the NFL and a team switch to get there.

As I said before, he is quite capable of getting consistent in certain areas where he lacks experience, chemistry, and instinct with this new System and personnel. The Brady comparison is to the early Brady who was nothing more than a game manager on an elite team. That Brady grew into one of the Elite QB's in the game after several years in that system and getting much better players at WR. The same thing is happening to Orton in that respect and the same Coach that helped Brady get there is now working with Orton.

Now, that being said, my personal expectations for Orton are no higher than what Mcdaniels has them. I want him to be the team leader in the huddle, not make costly mistakes, learn the system and begin to be able to audible out of poor play presnap reads, and then hit the open WR. If he can simply do that, this team will stay tremendously improved on offense. However, I can see a path that would take him to a much higher level than that. And truth be told, so should you if you had seen Brees and Brady play in college.

broncocalijohn
10-27-2009, 01:22 PM
Slowik "field" this defense? Hell, Slowik couldn't even explain this defense.

He would have stuck Dumervil on the line, Dawkins would not have been on this team and we would be running a 4-3 with guys like Boss Bailey, Winborn and Bly(who might have been ok in our current defense). Slowick is "FAIL". Someone needs to make that poster up with his mug. To me, #1 reason Shanahan needed to be fired.

BossChief
10-27-2009, 01:35 PM
That is what Tom Brady has been in NE for many years, a game manager. Yet, he was a game manager for a team that was elite around him. NE had a very tough defense and an efficient, not dominant offense, in their superbowl winning years. That changed in their SB loss year. Their defense was in decline and their Offense was almost unstoppable.

If you are a Big Ten fan, which I am and have seen countless Purdue games in the Tiller era since I live an hour away, then you will remember that Brady was benched twice at MICH. Once For Griese, and once for Drew Henson. Orton was a four year starter for Purdue. You will also see that Brady has certainly evolved and developed since his MICH years. Orton is just beginning to get there and like his fellow Purdue alumnus Drew Brees it took him a few years in the NFL and a team switch to get there.

As I said before, he is quite capable of getting consistent in certain areas where he lacks experience, chemistry, and instinct with this new System and personnel. The Brady comparison is to the early Brady who was nothing more than a game manager on an elite team. That Brady grew into one of the Elite QB's in the game after several years in that system and getting much better players at WR. The same thing is happening to Orton in that respect and the same Coach that helped Brady get there is now working with Orton.

Now, that being said, my personal expectations for Orton are no higher than what Mcdaniels has them. I want him to be the team leader in the huddle, not make costly mistakes, learn the system and begin to be able to audible out of poor play presnap reads, and then hit the open WR. If he can simply do that, this team will stay tremendously improved on offense. However, I can see a path that would take him to a much higher level than that. And truth be told, so should you if you had seen Brees and Brady play in college.
you're saying they will get better because of "X" reasons which I agree with, what you arent taking into account is defenses adjusting to playing the broncos with game tape to study off of. That is what is being missed IMHO.

They are playing teams that have no tape to watch on how the team calls plays, tendencies of its players they can key on, many other things that work against you after you get about 8-10 games on film. That is why players go through a "sophmore slump" and the actual slump starts toward the end of the previous year.

Look at Derek Anderson and the Browns before and after teams had tape to pick apart.

Dont take that statement the wrong way, Orton>Anderson, but I think you can understand what Im getting at.

If things go as I think they will, the positives cancel out the negatives and what your left with is what you have right now.

that make sense?

Mediator12
10-27-2009, 01:55 PM
you're saying they will get better because of "X" reasons which I agree with, what you arent taking into account is defenses adjusting to playing the broncos with game tape to study off of. That is what is being missed IMHO.

They are playing teams that have no tape to watch on how the team calls plays, tendencies of its players they can key on, many other things that work against you after you get about 8-10 games on film. That is why players go through a "sophmore slump" and the actual slump starts toward the end of the previous year.

Look at Derek Anderson and the Browns before and after teams had tape to pick apart.

Dont take that statement the wrong way, Orton>Anderson, but I think you can understand what Im getting at.

If things go as I think they will, the positives cancel out the negatives and what your left with is what you have right now.

that make sense?

Actually, it would make sense for most teams. However, there are 2 breaks that NFL coaches have for adjusting for game film. After 4 weeks, and after 10 weeks is what I have been told. After 10 weeks, there are no longer any schematic advantages that gamefilm can not fix. It comes down to playcalling and execution. After 4 Weeks, DEN is getting better on offense, and not hitting the first offensive wall like last years Bates led offense certainly did. We also know how poorly they performed after week 10 as well once the schematic advantages were gone.

The thing that is different about McDaniels system, is that it changes week to week based on the opponent, just like the NE system. Now, that keeps the offense from being pretty sharp right out of the gate and explains how the team has not got out to any big leads against teams IMHO. It also explains how well they make adjustments based on the unique gameplans they execute after halftime. Other teams are also adjusting to DEN's new scheme and no one has seen how they will play against them, but they know what to do once they show it!

That is what made Brady so good in NE. He could keep up with the complete gameplan switches from week to week depending on the opponent. Read the article that Orton talks about the difference in CHI and DEn in gameplanning here on the mane. In CHI, they changed 5-10 plays a week for gameplanning. In DEN, they change 30 per week and may add more at halftime to exploit what they are given.

It was a unique system that takes intelligent, capable players to execute. And, McDaniels is already using it better than any of the other Belichick Disciples have been able to replicate. So, while I see your point, it has much less relevance to this particular system than it would to say Jay Cutler in CHI.

BossChief
10-27-2009, 02:20 PM
Actually, it would make sense for most teams. However, there are 2 breaks that NFL coaches have for adjusting for game film. After 4 weeks, and after 10 weeks is what I have been told. After 10 weeks, there are no longer any schematic advantages that gamefilm can not fix. It comes down to playcalling and execution. After 4 Weeks, DEN is getting better on offense, and not hitting the first offensive wall like last years Bates led offense certainly did. We also know how poorly they performed after week 10 as well once the schematic advantages were gone.

The thing that is different about McDaniels system, is that it changes week to week based on the opponent, just like the NE system. Now, that keeps the offense from being pretty sharp right out of the gate and explains how the team has not got out to any big leads against teams IMHO. It also explains how well they make adjustments based on the unique gameplans they execute after halftime. Other teams are also adjusting to DEN's new scheme and no one has seen how they will play against them, but they know what to do once they show it!

That is what made Brady so good in NE. He could keep up with the complete gameplan switches from week to week depending on the opponent. Read the article that Orton talks about the difference in CHI and DEn in gameplanning here on the mane. In CHI, they changed 5-10 plays a week for gameplanning. In DEN, they change 30 per week and may add more at halftime to exploit what they are given.

It was a unique system that takes intelligent, capable players to execute. And, McDaniels is already using it better than any of the other Belichick Disciples have been able to replicate. So, while I see your point, it has much less relevance to this particular system than it would to say Jay Cutler in CHI.

Its not Josh Mcdaniels system.

NE has ran the perkins ernhardt system (not sure if thats spelled right) for the whole time BB has been there since day 1, Josh and Bill just changed the formation it was ran from to help maximize the available talent they had aquired. They changed from pro formation to the spread to accommodate more talented receivers than RBs, they essentially dumped a fb for a permanent slot receiver.

Remember Eric Manginis first year in NY?

"Mangenious"...till game tape was abundant and it was a different story.

Is McD better? Time will answer that not me, or anyone else here for that matter. DO I THINK he is? Yes, but time will tell the truth.

Side note: never believe what a player/coach/gm says when there is only one appropriate answer.

Mediator12
10-27-2009, 02:55 PM
Its not Josh Mcdaniels system.

NE has ran the perkins ernhardt system (not sure if thats spelled right) for the whole time BB has been there since day 1, Josh and Bill just changed the formation it was ran from to help maximize the available talent they had aquired. They changed from pro formation to the spread to accommodate more talented receivers than RBs, they essentially dumped a fb for a permanent slot receiver.

Remember Eric Manginis first year in NY?

"Mangenious"...till game tape was abundant and it was a different story.

Is McD better? Time will answer that not me, or anyone else here for that matter. DO I THINK he is? Yes, but time will tell the truth.

Side note: never believe what a player/coach/gm says when there is only one appropriate answer.

Actually, it is Josh McDaniels system. I really disagree with you here. Its loosely based off the Erhardt-Perkins offense System as a base, but its completely different in its application and rules. What you are referencing is simply the easiest way to classify his system. It is like calling Andy Reid's Sytem the West Coast Offense, when its simply the core system for its base.

NE's offense really opened up under McDaniels as the OC. They started doing things they had never done before and were able to make defenses react, rather than be able to dictate the action. They changed their reads, protections, and rules on coverage adjustments based on personnel and opponent. In short, they took every player on their offense and worked them into how maximize their strengths and exploit the opponents weaknesses every week. Entire elements of the system are left out or incorporated every week.

While people like to simplify things to the lowest common denominator, this offense requires the opposite. It requires everyone to play to and above their mental limits. It stretches opposing Defenses that struggle to operate out of their comfort zone and takes away what they do best. In short, McDaniels did to this scheme what Belichick did to the Fairbanks Bullough 3-4. He customized it to take advantage of other teams greatest weakness, their lack of adaptability from week to week game to game.

And, its pretty evident it is hard to replicate and sustain. Only 2 teams in the NFL even attempt to run it. One has struggled earlier this year, and the other is still slowly learning how to get it done week to week while still being relatively successful overall.

As for Mangini, he only had one side of the ball. The one Crennel also benefitted from Belichick's expertise. McDaniels has instituted both in DEN and also found better personnel and coaching than people thought to execute them. Nolan has already run variations of that DEF in SF snd BAL succesfully. DEN's coaching is much better than either of Mangini's staff. He lacked creds to get quality coaches to go with him both places. McDaniels has been much more fortunate in DEN.

That being said, McDaniels still has a long way to go. This team is far from perfect, and so is Orton. The thing is, this is a damn competitive league. And DEN and Orton are being succesful throughout the learning curve process. Sure, the league will catch up some this year. They will certainly catch up next offseason if DEN continues to do well. The thing is, will they be able to do anything about it? NE, PIT and INDY run the same stuff over and over and are extremely succesful doing it.

Drek
10-27-2009, 02:55 PM
Its not Josh Mcdaniels system.

NE has ran the perkins ernhardt system (not sure if thats spelled right) for the whole time BB has been there since day 1, Josh and Bill just changed the formation it was ran from to help maximize the available talent they had aquired. They changed from pro formation to the spread to accommodate more talented receivers than RBs, they essentially dumped a fb for a permanent slot receiver.

Remember Eric Manginis first year in NY?

"Mangenious"...till game tape was abundant and it was a different story.

Is McD better? Time will answer that not me, or anyone else here for that matter. DO I THINK he is? Yes, but time will tell the truth.

Side note: never believe what a player/coach/gm says when there is only one appropriate answer.
Mangini never actually called plays in New England, even as the DC. McDaniels was calling the offensive plays as a QB coach. We might not have definitive proof of one being a superior football mind to the other, but its pretty clear that an elite football mind in Bill Belichick saw a world of difference in them somewhere.

Also, McDaniels' system is as heavily modified a system from its origin as any offense in the league. Holmgren deviated from the WCO of Walsh, as did Shanahan. Gruden deviated from Holmgren, and Kubiak deviates from Shanahan. But even those second generation systems are more akin to their progeny than McDaniels' system is to the immediate predecessor's offense in New England. Its more closely related to Sean Payton's offense and the connection between those two is quite a ways back up the coaching tree.

McDaniels has incorporated a lot of new ideas into offensive football. Has he reinvented the wheel? No, but that hasn't happened in decades, without a major rules change there are only so many totally unique concepts, after a while its regurgitation and repackaging. McDaniels just happens to be really good at making that look fresh and new.

fontaine
10-27-2009, 03:27 PM
All I know is that when McD was interviewed recently he said he wasn't sure if Orton missed a read all day. For me that's the bottom line for Orton. This guy can handle the offense and complex changes required and adjust week to week and he's doing it all mentally.

Look at the progression of how our offense has changed dramatically in terms of play calling and execution. We've gone from attacking Oakland in the middle to stay away from their strength at CB, to spreading the ball out wide to our WRs, to Royal another week, and then to Scheffler against the matchup with Weddle.

Most QBs in this league wouldn't be able to handle that many changes week in week out. Orton is doing it in just his 6th game as a Bronco.

So tell me? How are defenses going to adjust to the playcalling and schemes when they've changed so much? They target our WRs and we go to the power game with our TEs up the middle, if they play with any cushion then we've already shown we can throw the quick timing passes to turn into big gainers and so on.

Already Orton is moved away from the QB he was in Chicago where he was known as a check down QB. There have been numerous plays when he's totally avoided passing the ball off the RB in the flat instead going for the soft zone spots and hitting Schef, Gaffney for large gains. He's making full use of his time in the pocket by going to his 2nd or even third read. Just look at the last TD pass to Stockley where he was Orton third/fourth read? That shows progression, maturity and growing comfort in this offense.

Soon enough, like some one else said, when he gets familiar with the AFC defenses/players etc he'll regularly find the open man. It's a completely different way of attacking defenses than what we saw with Cutler who almost totally relied on his arm strength to place/force the ball into a tight area rather than out smarting defenses.

The next two things for Orton are to continue his consistency in understanding defenses, making pre snap reads, and finally getting more comfortable throwing the intermediate passes consistently. If he does this, then he's playing at the same level as Brady.

2KBack
10-27-2009, 03:45 PM
That is what Tom Brady has been in NE for many years, a game manager. Yet, he was a game manager for a team that was elite around him. NE had a very tough defense and an efficient, not dominant offense, in their superbowl winning years. That changed in their SB loss year. Their defense was in decline and their Offense was almost unstoppable.

If you are a Big Ten fan, which I am and have seen countless Purdue games in the Tiller era since I live an hour away, then you will remember that Brady was benched twice at MICH. Once For Griese, and once for Drew Henson. Orton was a four year starter for Purdue. You will also see that Brady has certainly evolved and developed since his MICH years. Orton is just beginning to get there and like his fellow Purdue alumnus Drew Brees it took him a few years in the NFL and a team switch to get there.

As I said before, he is quite capable of getting consistent in certain areas where he lacks experience, chemistry, and instinct with this new System and personnel. The Brady comparison is to the early Brady who was nothing more than a game manager on an elite team. That Brady grew into one of the Elite QB's in the game after several years in that system and getting much better players at WR. The same thing is happening to Orton in that respect and the same Coach that helped Brady get there is now working with Orton.

Now, that being said, my personal expectations for Orton are no higher than what Mcdaniels has them. I want him to be the team leader in the huddle, not make costly mistakes, learn the system and begin to be able to audible out of poor play presnap reads, and then hit the open WR. If he can simply do that, this team will stay tremendously improved on offense. However, I can see a path that would take him to a much higher level than that. And truth be told, so should you if you had seen Brees and Brady play in college.

I'm glad you are the one making these comparisons now. You've built enough capital here to avoid the thrashings I've gotten for saying similar things

KCStud
10-27-2009, 03:52 PM
Orton is an average QB who has a good coach and an excellent supporting cast

55CrushEm
10-27-2009, 04:03 PM
Orton is an average QB who has a good coach and an excellent supporting cast

Perhaps Orton is an ABOVE average QB, whose now only beginning to see his potential because he is no longer in a sh*t system in Chicago.

Atwater His Ass
10-27-2009, 04:34 PM
Perhaps Orton is an ABOVE average QB, whose now only beginning to see his potential because he is no longer in a sh*t system in Chicago.

Then why do people bag on Cutler and anyone who posts anything about him being in a bad situation there?

But it's ok to say that about Orton. lawl.

Mediator12
10-27-2009, 09:40 PM
Then why do people bag on Cutler and anyone who posts anything about him being in a bad situation there?

But it's ok to say that about Orton. lawl.

Simple, because his own dumb ass forced the trade that made it harder for him to become the QB he could have been in DEN. He walked into that situation and its going to cost him financially and career wise IMHO.

Could not happen to a better guy !Booya!

azbroncfan
10-27-2009, 09:43 PM
Orton is an average QB who has a good coach and an excellent supporting cast

Kind of like TrINT Green was. If he has TrINT production I'd be happy.

McDman
10-27-2009, 09:45 PM
He also hasn't had his first bad game, blown play that loses game, but it's coming. Every QB does that sometimes.

I for one believe more in the system, the coaching, the overall offense then I do Orton. Don't get me wrong I love him as a Broncos, I just think our great oline, great play calling, great wr could make quite a few QBs look really good.

Most qbs don't get the time Broncos oline provides. Cutler finding out how much more important that is then he thought.

Sh!t is going to hit the fan when it does come.

BossChief
10-27-2009, 09:54 PM
Orton is an average QB who has a good coach and an excellent supporting cast

100% correct sir!

BossChief
10-27-2009, 09:59 PM
Perhaps Orton is an ABOVE average QB, whose now only beginning to see his potential because he is no longer in a sh*t system in Chicago.

ask 5000 nfl fans who the top three receivers in Chicago were before Cutler got there and I bet less than 100 could do it without cheating.

ask those same 5000 fans the same question about denverr, and you have 4500 knowing the answer.

Couple that with the fact the difference in quality of offensive line is night and day and one can see why KCstud is 100% correct.

thats whats up

BossChief
10-27-2009, 10:05 PM
Kind of like TrINT Green was. If he has TrINT production I'd be happy.

funny, visit most major Chiefs board and go back to the time when Trent played and visit some approval polls, you will find that about 65% of the fan base wanted him replaced because they were sold he wouldnt win a championship because he was a game manager.

I was part of the 35% that thought he could.

LOL

Orton should be Trent Green X .90

A very consistent game manager.

time will tell if I am correct.

He should be a consistant top ten passer in the league.

Rock Chalk
10-27-2009, 10:06 PM
Orton is an average QB who has a good coach and an excellent supporting cast

Id take that over a ****ty QB with a horrible coach and an even worse supporting cast...oh wait, thats what you cheer for.

BossChief
10-27-2009, 10:06 PM
**** is going to hit the fan when it does come.

exactly

+1

BossChief
10-27-2009, 10:08 PM
Id take that over a ****ty QB with a horrible coach and an even worse supporting cast...oh wait, thats what you cheer for.

feel better about yourself now?

I think we are well aware that the Chiefs arent a good team right now.

Shannahan left alot more in the cupboard than Herm and CP did.

Rock Chalk
10-27-2009, 10:09 PM
You know who the best game manager was?

Joe Montana.

Game manager. That's all. He had about 16 pro-bowlers a year on his teams and he was capable of not ****ing it up.

Late game winning drives? Yeah, he has those....but so does Orton...hmm.

Im not concerned with what some stupid KC trolls think. Even if they claim they are "not a troll", they are trolls.

Give me my game manager who has done nothing but improve every single week in Denver over that whiny bitch Cutler who still cant stop sticking his head up his own ass.

Rock Chalk
10-27-2009, 10:09 PM
feel better about yourself now?

I think we are well aware that the Chiefs arent a good team right now.

Shannahan left alot more in the cupboard than Herm and CP did.

Id feel better if you and your fellow trolls left. Im doubtful it happens though.

SureShot
10-27-2009, 10:10 PM
**** is going to hit the fan when it does come.

I dont think so. I believe he has earned some good will by being 6-0 vs the Pats and Chargers which everyone hates. I was an Orton "hater" but the dude has earned a long very long leash with me.

McDman
10-27-2009, 10:12 PM
I dont think so. I believe he has earned some good will by being 6-0 vs the Pats and Chargers which everyone hates. I was an Orton "hater" but the dude has earned a long very long leash with me.

How long do you think it takes for BF7 to revoke his new found fondness of Orton. I say two bad games and he tries to play it like he was right at the beginning of the year.

BossChief
10-27-2009, 10:15 PM
You know who the best game manager was?

Joe Montana.

Game manager. That's all. He had about 16 pro-bowlers a year on his teams and he was capable of not ****ing it up.

Late game winning drives? Yeah, he has those....but so does Orton...hmm.

Im not concerned with what some stupid KC trolls think. Even if they claim they are "not a troll", they are trolls.

Give me my game manager who has done nothing but improve every single week in Denver over that whiny b**** Cutler who still cant stop sticking his head up his own ass.



You have officially put yourself in your own class of dumb.

I dont think I have to explain why, you did a good job of that yourself.

NUB
10-27-2009, 10:16 PM
A.J. Feeley. Brian Griese. David Garrard.

BossChief
10-27-2009, 10:18 PM
Id feel better if you and your fellow trolls left. Im doubtful it happens though.

dont like a voice of reason huh?

you got people already comparing Orton to Montana and Tom Brady after 6 games.

McDman
10-27-2009, 10:21 PM
dont like a voice of reason huh?

you got people already comparing Orton to Montana and Tom Brady after 6 games.

I'd say Orton is more of a Jesus/Superman hybrid.

Mediator12
10-27-2009, 10:22 PM
Orton is an average QB who has a good coach and an excellent supporting cast

Um right now, he is an above average QB with a great coach and an excellent supporting cast. The whole point of this thread is to comment on whether or not he can achieve more than just above average.

So, to come in here and drop a one liner like that is to understate the obvious when you could have chosen to at least have a decent conversation like Bosschief chose to do.

Thanks for the lack of effort. It's good to see you do about he same amount of preparation your team seems to do before games....

BossChief
10-27-2009, 10:23 PM
If orton has two bad games, all the wins will be forgotten and people will start calling for his head.

Plummer was 39-15 as a starter in denver and was rushed out of town when he was 7-4 as a starter for a choking first round qb that never lead his team to a winning record...even with a 7-4 head start given to him by plummer.



...oh and did I mention he lead them to the AFC championship game the year before he was ran out of town?

Bronx33
10-27-2009, 10:25 PM
If orton has two bad games, all the wins will be forgotten and people will start calling for his head.

Plummer was 39-15 as a starter in denver and was rushed out of town when he was 7-4 as a starter for a choking first round qb that never lead his team to a winning record...even with a 7-4 head start given to him by plummer.



...oh and did I mention he lead them to the AFC championship game the year before he was ran out of town?

Doubt it..

Rock Chalk
10-27-2009, 10:25 PM
dont like a voice of reason huh?

you got people already comparing Orton to Montana and Tom Brady after 6 games.

Thats because he has played like Tom Brady (young version) and Joe Montana (WC Version) in the last...well 3 games anyway.

I dont see anyone saying that he is going to equal those guys, but HOW he is playing is equal to those guys right now.

Thats reasonable.

What you are doing is shoving your head up your ass and while, hilarious on many levels, not fair, productive or accurate.

Mediator12
10-27-2009, 10:26 PM
dont like a voice of reason huh?

you got people already comparing Orton to Montana and Tom Brady after 6 games.

That is poor context, your cherry picking, and you know it!

The comparison I made to Brady is developmental. He is no better or worse than Brady was during his early SB winning years in NE when the offense was average and the defense carried them. Both of these players got the benefit of developing under one Josh McDaniels who has made his own offense based on the philosophies of the Belichick mentality of player. Its not hard to see Orton developing into a better QB than he is RIGHT NOW which is the point of this thread.....

BossChief
10-27-2009, 10:27 PM
Um right now, he is an above average QB with a great coach and an excellent supporting cast. The whole point of this thread is to comment on whether or not he can achieve more than just above average.

So, to come in here and drop a one liner like that is to understate the obvious when you could have chosen to at least have a decent conversation like Bosschief chose to do.

.

thank you, I was begining to think I might really be a troll!

Hilarious!

Mediator12
10-27-2009, 10:29 PM
thank you, I was begining to think I might really be a troll!

Hilarious!

Well, you currently are acting like a troll :strong:

However, before that you at least tried to have a legit dialogue :wave:

Rock Chalk
10-27-2009, 10:29 PM
If orton has two bad games, all the wins will be forgotten and people will start calling for his head.

Plummer was 39-15 as a starter in denver and was rushed out of town when he was 7-4 as a starter for a choking first round qb that never lead his team to a winning record...even with a 7-4 head start given to him by plummer.



...oh and did I mention he lead them to the AFC championship game the year before he was ran out of town?

Man you dont know a ****ing thing about the Broncos do you? No you do not. Let me educate you.

Plummer was run out of town because Mike Shanahan got a new toy and couldn't wait to play with it even though we were still in the playoff hunt and when he got benched he was 7-4 that year. 3 more wins wins the division that year but he decided to yank the winning QB and put in a dip**** rookie. Thus the begin of the demise of Shanahan.

Most people did not want Plummer run off. Most fans loved Plummer. He wasn't awesome or anything, but he had heart and will and after Griese he was a WELCOME sight. He wasn't run out of town by the fans, eh was run out of town by an egomaniacal HC with too much power and too much complacency.

We got rid of the pussy Cutler and we got rid of the stale old HC (whom I still dearly love, dont get me wrong, but he had to go) and now, we are 6-0 with a guy everyone assumed was **** because Chicago has poor coaching and a poor offensive gameplan.

BossChief
10-27-2009, 10:34 PM
That is poor context, your cherry picking, and you know it!

The comparison I made to Brady is developmental. He is no better or worse than Brady was during his early SB winning years in NE when the offense was average and the defense carried them. Both of these players got the benefit of developing under one Josh McDaniels who has made his own offense based on the philosophies of the Belichick mentality of player. Its not hard to see Orton developing into a better QB than he is RIGHT NOW which is the point of this thread.....

Im just saying, dont fall into the trap of setting the bar so high he wont ever reach it.

If you expect Tom Brady or Joe Montana, and get Kyle Orton, you might be a little disapointed.

You should go read some threads about Trent when he got hurt and Damn huard won a couple games...really telling.

BossChief
10-27-2009, 10:37 PM
Well, you currently are acting like a troll :strong:

However, before that you at least tried to have a legit dialogue :wave:

if not being a fan of the team and just calling it how I see it without being influenced by tru fan syndrome, I guess I am one.

baja
10-27-2009, 10:38 PM
Id feel better if you and your fellow trolls left. Im doubtful it happens though.

Dude if everyone you keep inviting to leave does leave you may end up here alone. Just sayin...

BossChief
10-27-2009, 10:39 PM
Man you dont know a ****ing thing about the Broncos do you? No you do not. Let me educate you.

Plummer was run out of town because Mike Shanahan got a new toy and couldn't wait to play with it even though we were still in the playoff hunt and when he got benched he was 7-4 that year. 3 more wins wins the division that year but he decided to yank the winning QB and put in a dip**** rookie. Thus the begin of the demise of Shanahan.

Most people did not want Plummer run off. Most fans loved Plummer. He wasn't awesome or anything, but he had heart and will and after Griese he was a WELCOME sight. He wasn't run out of town by the fans, eh was run out of town by an egomaniacal HC with too much power and too much complacency.

We got rid of the p***Y Cutler and we got rid of the stale old HC (whom I still dearly love, dont get me wrong, but he had to go) and now, we are 6-0 with a guy everyone assumed was **** because Chicago has poor coaching and a poor offensive gameplan.

this a great hindsight view.

You got all huffy puffy and regurgitated pretty much exactly what I had already said under the premise of "you dont know a damn thing about the Broncos do you?"

take a step back from the rivalry hatred and take my words as a realistic outsiders view, or get all worked up and call me a troll and use me as stress relief vent recepient, makes no difference to me.

just because a Chiefs fan comes here and suggests your not gonna win the next ten superbowls, doenst make him a troll.

A troll would come here and say:

"Orton sux, the line is garbage and the receivers should be scrapped. can I borrow a donkey jersey, I forgot to bring paper and I gotta use the john"

I have been the exact opposite of that, but think what you like.

baja
10-27-2009, 10:45 PM
Man you dont know a ****ing thing about the Broncos do you? No you do not. Let me educate you.

Plummer was run out of town because Mike Shanahan got a new toy and couldn't wait to play with it even though we were still in the playoff hunt and when he got benched he was 7-4 that year. 3 more wins wins the division that year but he decided to yank the winning QB and put in a dip**** rookie. Thus the begin of the demise of Shanahan.

Most people did not want Plummer run off. Most fans loved Plummer. He wasn't awesome or anything, but he had heart and will and after Griese he was a WELCOME sight. He wasn't run out of town by the fans, eh was run out of town by an egomaniacal HC with too much power and too much complacency.

We got rid of the p***Y Cutler and we got rid of the stale old HC (whom I still dearly love, dont get me wrong, but he had to go) and now, we are 6-0 with a guy everyone assumed was **** because Chicago has poor coaching and a poor offensive gameplan.

It's feels late and I'm tired but I got to take issue with part of your post Alec. For whatever reason Plummer was playing like crap the season he got benched and was getting worse by the game. There were many of us that thought the best move was to get Cutlet in there and maybe he would get up to speed enough to win a playoff game because it sure was looking like Plummer wasn't up to the task.

BossChief
10-27-2009, 11:02 PM
It's feels late and I'm tired but I got to take issue with part of your post Alec. For whatever reason Plummer was playing like crap the season he got benched and was getting worse by the game. There were many of us that thought the best move was to get Cutlet in there and maybe he would get up to speed enough to win a playoff game because it sure was looking like Plummer wasn't up to the task.

Cutler was supposed to be stepping into a sure fire playoff team for a five game warmup where all he had to do was not lose the games and he would get a chance to write a new chapter in Broncos history.

he completely **** the bed.

Ill never forget seeing the Broncos get beat at home against the 49ers after a snow storm to clinch a playoff spot.

The way Cutler closed out that year was horrendous.

baja
10-27-2009, 11:09 PM
Cutler was supposed to be stepping into a sure fire playoff team for a five game warmup where all he had to do was not lose the games and he would get a chance to write a new chapter in Broncos history.

he completely **** the bed.

Ill never forget seeing the Broncos get beat at home against the 49ers after a snow storm to clinch a playoff spot.

The way Cutler closed out that year was horrendous.

A very average 49er team that so chance at a playoff spot. They played with twice the heart that the Broncos did that day. It should have been a red flag as to the make up of Cutler but so many of us were so in love with his arm that we refused to see the "no heart" effort.

BossChief
10-27-2009, 11:18 PM
A very average 49er team that so chance at a playoff spot. They played with twice the heart that the Broncos did that day. It should have been a red flag as to the make up of Cutler but so many of us were so in love with his arm that we refused to see the "no heart" effort.

I wonder how many times I would have been called a troll back then?

When your Qb is sitting by himself on the bench throwing a hissy fit after a bad series in a bad game, that attitude translates to the whole team, even the defense in the level of energy they play with.

Cutler was never the mentally strong leader a QB needs to be, Orton is.

baja
10-27-2009, 11:35 PM
I wonder how many times I would have been called a troll back then?

When your Qb is sitting by himself on the bench throwing a hissy fit after a bad series in a bad game, that attitude translates to the whole team, even the defense in the level of energy they play with.

Cutler was never the mentally strong leader a QB needs to be, Orton is.

Ya true that.

Why are real good posters here calling you a troll, you don't appear to be trolling at the moment

BossChief
10-27-2009, 11:57 PM
Ya true that.

Why are real good posters here calling you a troll, you don't appear to be trolling at the moment

I couldn't tell ya. Click on my name, read my posts and get back to me.

I think my posting has been exemplary.

The only time I responded unfavorably was when I was basically called out. I am not the type of guy to get smacked in the mouth and walk away.

baja
10-28-2009, 12:09 AM
I couldn't tell ya. Click on my name, read my posts and get back to me.

I think my posting has been exemplary.

The only time I responded unfavorably was when I was basically called out. I am not the type of guy to get smacked in the mouth and walk away.

Ya I read some of them. I don't disagree with those that I did read, mostly the ones pointing to plummer's numbers and value and I agree with you plummer was very good in Denver that is up until Cutler was drafted. That got into Plummer's head and worked on him and fed him up. he began to suck in greater chunks of suckyness with each passing game so the QB change did make sense.

Atwater His Ass
10-28-2009, 12:13 AM
You have officially put yourself in your own class of dumb.



He does that quite often actually.

Also, to try to act like Plummer wasn't depised by some fans is nothing but imaginary. Plummer created a HUGE divide in the fan base, not so different from what has happened with McD, Cutler, and Orton.

There were threads after threads debating the merits of Plummer. I can't believe anyone who was on this board during that time would even try to deny that or try to spin it like everyone in the universe except Mike Shanahan wanted Plummer to remain the starter.

I also love the revisionist theory / implication that people hated Cutler when he was here. People were all over his nuts all the time. It wasn't until this off-season that people started to pretend and then convince themselves that Cutler was horrible.

BossChief
10-28-2009, 12:17 AM
He does that quite often actually.

I had a feeling that was the case.

BroncoBuff
10-28-2009, 12:23 AM
I think my posting has been exemplary.
Welcome to everyone-ville.

Dumass.

BossChief
10-28-2009, 12:29 AM
Welcome to everyone-ville.

Dumass.

OMG

you spelled DUMBASS wrong, dumbass!

LOL

seems more like Dumerville (get it?)

:stupid:

:yayaya:Hilarious!:rofl:ROFL!zowie!Yikes!Nnyah!:ny ahdevil

fontaine
10-28-2009, 04:30 AM
He does that quite often actually.

Also, to try to act like Plummer wasn't depised by some fans is nothing but imaginary. Plummer created a HUGE divide in the fan base, not so different from what has happened with McD, Cutler, and Orton.

There were threads after threads debating the merits of Plummer. I can't believe anyone who was on this board during that time would even try to deny that or try to spin it like everyone in the universe except Mike Shanahan wanted Plummer to remain the starter.

No kidding. Once defenses starting playing contain pass rush to keep him in the pocket Plummer completely crapped out at the prospect of having to be, you know, a pocket passer probably because he only had half a brain that could only see half the field.

The guy was a real competitor and really well liked by the team but as a pocket QB he was a train wreck.

KCStud
10-28-2009, 01:18 PM
Id feel better if you and your fellow trolls left. Im doubtful it happens though.

Telling the truth is not trolling. Seems to me like you are a teenager by your angry subjective comments though

Mediator12
10-28-2009, 01:53 PM
Telling the truth is not trolling. Seems to me like you are a teenager by your angry subjective comments though

Ah, telling the truth is not trolling.

So, what are you doing here besides stating your opinion? How is that telling the truth? You are on a rival fan bases message board pulling your best Al Gore "truth" comment? Please Hilarious!

Rock Chalk
10-28-2009, 02:24 PM
Telling the truth is not trolling. Seems to me like you are a teenager by your angry subjective comments though

Ha, as if anything you have said anywhere on this message board at anytime has been anything remotely resembling the truth.

You give your trollish opinion, that's it.

Troll.

Im not angry either. I just dont like you.

elsid13
10-28-2009, 02:34 PM
The next couple weeks will be interesting. Orton and McDaniels are facing two aggressive defense oriented teams coming off bye weeks. If they can overcome them it should give a good indicator of what the future holds for this team.

Beantown Bronco
10-28-2009, 02:46 PM
If Orton can lead us to wins in these next few games, he can "peak" whenever and wherever he wants as far as I'm concerned.

Bronco Warrior
10-28-2009, 03:37 PM
Better technique and getting his timing down will help and still has some upside, but you can't coach in talent and athletic ability..and Orton only has so much of that! Right now he is playing above his talent level..that's good coaching and an "Average Talent QB System" *that made a bony gay scrub like Brady a star!~ Can't wait till we get a QB with some actual skills! lol!
edit: *"A system to help Average QBs thrive"

rastaman
10-28-2009, 04:04 PM
Better technique and getting his timing down will help and still has some upside, but you can't coach in talent and athletic ability..and Orton only has so much of that! Right now he is playing above his talent level..that's good coaching and an "Average Talent QB System" that made a bony gay scrub like Brady a star!~ Can't wait till we get a QB with some actual skills! lol!

Boy I thought I was the only Bronco FAN with the same sentiments. Its a small world after all.:sunshine:

Inkana7
10-28-2009, 04:11 PM
Better technique and getting his timing down will help and still has some upside, but you can't coach in talent and athletic ability..and Orton only has so much of that! Right now he is playing above his talent level..that's good coaching and an "Average Talent QB System" that made a bony gay scrub like Brady a star!~ Can't wait till we get a QB with some actual skills! lol!

Ah, I was wondering why you had suddenly become an OM hit. I now see why with statements like this.

Bronco Warrior
10-28-2009, 04:24 PM
Ah, I was wondering why you had suddenly become an OM hit. I now see why with statements like this.

I'm gonna assume That's sarcasm, but what I had to say about Orton is true. Anybody who thinks Orton has a wealth of physical talent doesn't know sports. But a system can make the quarterback, and has in the case of Orton (so far) and Brady among others!

Mediator12
10-28-2009, 04:51 PM
I'm gonna assume That's sarcasm, but what I had to say about Orton is true. Anybody who thinks Orton has a wealth of physical talent doesn't know sports. But a system can make the quarterback, and has in the case of Orton (so far) and Brady among others!

Peyton Manning lacks physical talent in spades. However, he throws the ball better than anyone in the NFL these days because arm strength is only a small part of the NFL passing game.

What you have to have is an arm strong enough to make all the throws, a mind that is better prepared than the defense, the ability to manipulate a defense pre and post snap, an effective scheme that accentuates the strengths of your WR's, a solid Playcaller, a great gameplanner, and an even better guy to make adjustments during gametime. That is what Brady had to develop in NE and it is what Orton has right now in DEN.

Its a lot more than the system. It's a lot more than the QB. Its a lot more than the coaching. Its a lot more than the playcalling. Its all of that together that makes success come on SUN.

Dukes
10-28-2009, 04:57 PM
Boy I thought I was the only Bronco FAN with the same sentiments. Its a small world after all.:sunshine:

If you have to constantly prove you're a Bronco fan here, then you're obviously not.

2KBack
10-28-2009, 04:59 PM
I'm gonna assume That's sarcasm, but what I had to say about Orton is true. Anybody who thinks Orton has a wealth of physical talent doesn't know sports. But a system can make the quarterback, and has in the case of Orton (so far) and Brady among others!

Hmmm, I would have to say it is perfectly fair to think that a professional athlete has an abundance of physical talent.

Perhaps you are right though and sports don't require physical talent in order to be played at the highest level attainable. That being the professional level, the level every athlete aspires to.

elsid13
10-28-2009, 05:10 PM
Peyton Manning lacks physical talent in spades. However, he throws the ball better than anyone in the NFL these days because arm strength is only a small part of the NFL passing game.

What you have to have is an arm strong enough to make all the throws, a mind that is better prepared than the defense, the ability to manipulate a defense pre and post snap, an effective scheme that accentuates the strengths of your WR's, a solid Playcaller, a great gameplanner, and an even better guy to make adjustments during gametime. That is what Brady had to develop in NE and it is what Orton has right now in DEN.

Its a lot more than the system. It's a lot more than the QB. Its a lot more than the coaching. Its a lot more than the playcalling. Its all of that together that makes success come on SUN.

Med,

We both know that Manning is a lot more physical gifted then you are giving him credit for. Manning has no problem throwing that deep out and his release/timing is awesome. Add in his balance/mobility in the pocket and that pretty physical gifted player. When combined that with this his preparation work you get a great player. Brady is similar physical gifted QB.

Orton on other hand is a lot more dependent on the play of other around him for success. Does he have a strong arm? No really. It alright but that deep out kinda give him problem. Does he have a quick release? It probable in the average range (3 to 4 seconds) where Manning is in the 2 to 3 second range. Does he have great mobility in the pocket - it OK but he doesn't really have the ability to move around in or out of the pocket.

Orton will get better has he get more experienced in the system but much like Craig Morton he will be dependent on the supporting cast for success.

Bronco Warrior
10-28-2009, 05:16 PM
Obviously he has some talent, even more than most that play the game on a college level, but he is in the bottom third in Footspeed, Arm strength and many other measurables(in the NFL) but not in luck or ability to execute a QB friendly system. He has done tons better than any year in his career and has improved his technique a boat load!

Wonder why Peyton keeps getting the knock for being a weak arm, that isn't even close to true even at his age. He has twice the arm-strength of Orton, and has touch on the long ball.
He has deceptively good pocket movement for a guy with cement in his shoes!

Rock Chalk
10-28-2009, 05:18 PM
Med,

We both know that Manning is a lot more physical gifted then you are giving him credit for. Manning has no problem throwing that deep out and his release/timing is awesome. Add in his balance/mobility in the pocket and that pretty physical gifted player. When combined that with this his preparation work you get a great player. Brady is similar physical gifted QB.

Orton on other hand is a lot more dependent on the play of other around him for success. Does he have a strong arm? No really. It alright but that deep out kinda give him problem. Does he have a quick release? It probable in the average range (3 to 4 seconds) where Manning is in the 2 to 3 second range. Does he have great mobility in the pocket - it OK but he doesn't really have the ability to move around in or out of the pocket.

Orton will get better has he get more experienced in the system but much like Craig Morton he will be dependent on the supporting cast for success.

I try, I really try to read your posts but your english is just so ****ing bad I can never finish it.

BroncoBuff
10-28-2009, 05:20 PM
If you have to constantly prove you're a Bronco fan here, then you're obviously not.

If you constantly accuse people here they're NOT Broncos fans, then you obviously have personal issues we can't help you with.

rastaman
10-28-2009, 05:23 PM
If you have to constantly prove you're a Bronco fan here, then you're obviously not.

You aren't a Bronco either......you just think are. You're really a Bronco Customer! Bowlen knows you're a customer as well. :thumbsup:

Dukes
10-28-2009, 05:27 PM
If you constantly accuse people here they're NOT Broncos fans, then you obviously have personal issues we can't help you with.

Na, just Rasta. He's made it perfectly clear that he's a fan of players. Not the Broncos.

Bronco Warrior
10-28-2009, 05:41 PM
Na, just Rasta. He's made it perfectly clear that he's a fan of players. Not the Broncos.

Where exactly did he show he's not a fan of the team? Because he doesn't think every player on the team is without room fo improvement?? That's not being a fan that's being a delusional homer!

Mediator12
10-28-2009, 05:42 PM
Med,

We both know that Manning is a lot more physical gifted then you are giving him credit for. Manning has no problem throwing that deep out and his release/timing is awesome. Add in his balance/mobility in the pocket and that pretty physical gifted player. When combined that with this his preparation work you get a great player. Brady is similar physical gifted QB.

Orton on other hand is a lot more dependent on the play of other around him for success. Does he have a strong arm? No really. It alright but that deep out kinda give him problem. Does he have a quick release? It probable in the average range (3 to 4 seconds) where Manning is in the 2 to 3 second range. Does he have great mobility in the pocket - it OK but he doesn't really have the ability to move around in or out of the pocket.

Orton will get better has he get more experienced in the system but much like Craig Morton he will be dependent on the supporting cast for success.

See, that is where perception comes into play. I have watched him since he was at TEN, and he does not even come close to throwing a pretty ball consistently. His accuracy, especially before this year, is about average. He does not have anything more than an average arm either. What he has is mastery of a system, a unique chemistry with his WR's, a sharp mind, the ability to adjust every playcall to the defenses presnap read, the knack to understand and read coverages better than anyone in the NFL, and the timing to get the ball right where it needs to be.

His WR's make a bunch of great catches that are not right on target, he gets people killed over the middle from lack of arm strength, and he does not throw the ball particularly well on the run. What he does though is so much better than these weaknesses. He is highly consistent with getting the ball where it needs to be versus the defense called, or checking to a play that will succeed rather than have an epic fail.

In short, athletically these guys are very similar. Payton's release may seem to be quicker, but that is also a factor of decisive decision making. It is the same thing that made Zach Thomas a Stud Mike for years, despite being slow. He diagnosed plays faster than guys with better speed and therefore got their quicker with mental agility rather than physical agility. Payton will look one way and be setting a safety up for the throw the other way. He already starts to throw before his eyes ever reach the target.

Mediator12
10-28-2009, 05:46 PM
Obviously he has some talent, even more than most that play the game on a college level, but he is in the bottom third in Footspeed, Arm strength and many other measurables(in the NFL) but not in luck or ability to execute a QB friendly system. He has done tons better than any year in his career and has improved his technique a boat load!

Wonder why Peyton keeps getting the knock for being a weak arm, that isn't even close to true even at his age. He has twice the arm-strength of Orton, and has touch on the long ball.
He has deceptively good pocket movement for a guy with cement in his shoes!

This is absolute non-sense. The fact that you are quoting "many other measurables" leaves you open to the fact that you have no idea what those are. It is further lacking when you call him lucky! Luck favors the prepared my friend ;D

As for Peyton having a strong arm, please! You have been watching too many of his commercials and not enough of him actually throwing the ball.

rastaman
10-28-2009, 05:49 PM
Na, just Rasta. He's made it perfectly clear that he's a fan of players. Not the Broncos.

Yep! Bronco Players! As well as all players around the league!LOL

rastaman
10-28-2009, 05:54 PM
I try, I really try to read your posts but your english is just so ****ing bad I can never finish it.

Ooops.....thats your elitist fan-ism coming to the surface!ROFL! I read Elsid13 post and understood it very well. So a few "s" were left off his post, however, the intent of his post/opinion was understood.

How intellectually stealthy of you.:sunshine:

Bronco Warrior
10-28-2009, 05:54 PM
[QUOTE=Mediator12;2622014]This is absolute non-sense. The fact that you are quoting "many other measurables" leaves you open to the fact that you have no idea what those are. It is further lacking when you call him lucky! Luck favors the prepared my friend ;D

QUOTE]

He doesn't have the best field vision in the game, misses alot of open receivers..never sees them.

His pocket presence is average at best. He throws away balls with no pressure, and panics more than he needs to.

He isn't a natural leader, he's kind of a toadstool on the inspiration scale. His "leadership" is coach appointed in large part and the fact that Josh believes in him and the team believes in Josh. Just go back to the "My Bad" sound bites and you'll see what I'm talking about. Compare him to audio of Big Ben R. or Peyton and then you tell me!

Que
10-28-2009, 06:06 PM
Kyle Orton will be MVP before he is done.

Things I didn't expect to see here mid season... Also unexpected, my reaction, "mmmmm, it could happen". If this continues freaking Kyle Orton is going to have name is first three kids Josh Sr, Josh Jr and Pat. Talk about a Cinderella story.

BroncoBuff
10-28-2009, 06:23 PM
I try, I really try to read your posts but your english is just so ****ing bad I can never finish it.
Oh I see, you're idea of "good" English is obviously ****ing ****

BlaK-Argentina
10-28-2009, 06:31 PM
[QUOTE=Mediator12;2622014]This is absolute non-sense. The fact that you are quoting "many other measurables" leaves you open to the fact that you have no idea what those are. It is further lacking when you call him lucky! Luck favors the prepared my friend ;D

QUOTE]



He isn't a natural leader, he's kind of a toadstool on the inspiration scale. His "leadership" is coach appointed in large part and the fact that Josh believes in him and the team believes in Josh. Just go back to the "My Bad" sound bites and you'll see what I'm talking about. Compare him to audio of Big Ben R. or Peyton and then you tell me!

So Josh coached Orton in Chicago? That's news to me. EVERYONE in Chicago will tell you how great a leader Orton is.

Mediator12
10-28-2009, 06:34 PM
[QUOTE=Mediator12;2622014]This is absolute non-sense. The fact that you are quoting "many other measurables" leaves you open to the fact that you have no idea what those are. It is further lacking when you call him lucky! Luck favors the prepared my friend ;D

QUOTE]

He doesn't have the best field vision in the game, misses alot of open receivers..never sees them.

His pocket presence is average at best. He throws away balls with no pressure, and panics more than he needs to.

He isn't a natural leader, he's kind of a toadstool on the inspiration scale. His "leadership" is coach appointed in large part and the fact that Josh believes in him and the team believes in Josh. Just go back to the "My Bad" sound bites and you'll see what I'm talking about. Compare him to audio of Big Ben R. or Peyton and then you tell me!

1. Field vision-This is the major growth point he has to work on. However, Josh said he did not miss a read versus SD... Also, this is a trait that can be made better over time with hard work.

2. Misses open WR's-Every QB does this, it all depends on their reads and their progressions. What is important, are they still effective when they miss reads. Again, this is not a physically limiting trait either and can get much better with familiarity and experience.

3. Being a Natural leader-Yeah, he's a little goofy with the neckbeard ;D However, leadership is trust and he is earning that every week. And again, that is a malleable trait, not a physical trait.

4. Pocket Presence-The guy has an eternity to throw the ball usually, and this makes him antsy when it is not there. However, he does the right thing by taking a sack or throwing it away when he has no other choice. This is another thing that he should be able to improve and again is not a physical limitation.

In short, this is exactly WHY he can get better. The list of things you just mentioned are areas that all QB's can get better when they enter a new team and system. It is not a list of things that his physical abilities would ever prevent him from accomplishing.

azbroncfan
10-28-2009, 07:22 PM
He doesn't have the best field vision in the game, misses alot of open receivers..never sees them.

His pocket presence is average at best. He throws away balls with no pressure, and panics more than he needs to.

He isn't a natural leader, he's kind of a toadstool on the inspiration scale. His "leadership" is coach appointed in large part and the fact that Josh believes in him and the team believes in Josh. Just go back to the "My Bad" sound bites and you'll see what I'm talking about. Compare him to audio of Big Ben R. or Peyton and then you tell me!

His field vision is the best from the pocket that Denver has had here in awhile. Shanny had to cut the field in half for the last two QB's that were here. Jay wasn't good at that at all.

BossChief
10-29-2009, 02:47 AM
Med,

We both know that Manning is a lot more physical gifted then you are giving him credit for. Manning has no problem throwing that deep out and his release/timing is awesome. Add in his balance/mobility in the pocket and that pretty physical gifted player. When combined that with this his preparation work you get a great player. Brady is similar physical gifted QB.

Orton on other hand is a lot more dependent on the play of other around him for success. Does he have a strong arm? No really. It alright but that deep out kinda give him problem. Does he have a quick release? It probable in the average range (3 to 4 seconds) where Manning is in the 2 to 3 second range. Does he have great mobility in the pocket - it OK but he doesn't really have the ability to move around in or out of the pocket.

Orton will get better has he get more experienced in the system but much like Craig Morton he will be dependent on the supporting cast for success.

and the voice of reason surfaces!

+1

If every Bronco fan had this mentality, they wouldnt all set themselves up for failure.

If you guys dont +rep this post your living in Tom Montana denial.

:notworthy:notworthy:notworthy:notworthy:notworthy :notworthy:notworthy

BossChief
10-29-2009, 02:52 AM
See, that is where perception comes into play. I have watched him since he was at TEN, and he does not even come close to throwing a pretty ball consistently. His accuracy, especially before this year, is about average. He does not have anything more than an average arm either. What he has is mastery of a system, a unique chemistry with his WR's, a sharp mind, the ability to adjust every playcall to the defenses presnap read, the knack to understand and read coverages better than anyone in the NFL, and the timing to get the ball right where it needs to be.

His WR's make a bunch of great catches that are not right on target, he gets people killed over the middle from lack of arm strength, and he does not throw the ball particularly well on the run. What he does though is so much better than these weaknesses. He is highly consistent with getting the ball where it needs to be versus the defense called, or checking to a play that will succeed rather than have an epic fail.

In short, athletically these guys are very similar. Payton's release may seem to be quicker, but that is also a factor of decisive decision making. It is the same thing that made Zach Thomas a Stud Mike for years, despite being slow. He diagnosed plays faster than guys with better speed and therefore got their quicker with mental agility rather than physical agility. Payton will look one way and be setting a safety up for the throw the other way. He already starts to throw before his eyes ever reach the target.

what he has is:

A great oline
Three of the better receivers in the NFL in most knowledgeable circles
A great set of running backs
A very good coaching staff to help him prepare

Im not saying he is bd one bit, Im saying all he needs to do is manage the game to insure he gets the ball in the hands of his playmakers.

BossChief
10-29-2009, 03:04 AM
Ah, telling the truth is not trolling.

So, what are you doing here besides stating your opinion? How is that telling the truth? You are on a rival fan bases message board pulling your best Al Gore "truth" comment? Please Hilarious!

I am new here but I bet my opinions are noticably different than other Chiefs fans that have visited, likely different than other team fans as well.

I hope my opinions are taken as without any bias.

Chiefs fan first
Football fan second

I feel like I have intelligent opinions about the Broncos that aren't influenced by being a fan of the team.

On my home boards, we have everything from full on trolls- to blind homers, and I learned alot about my own team from opposing teams fans because they didnt have the blinders on. Im sure this is universal across the NFL (except Oakland, of course)

I hope I am shown to be one of those guys here, over time.

I just hope people read my posts before they look at my name first, because you will lose something in my posts if you dont.

Now....all that goes out the window for the weeks we play!

THEN ITS ON LIKE DONKEY KONG GUYS!!!!

BossChief
10-29-2009, 03:09 AM
See, that is where perception comes into play. I have watched him since he was at TEN, and he does not even come close to throwing a pretty ball consistently. His accuracy, especially before this year, is about average. He does not have anything more than an average arm either. What he has is mastery of a system, a unique chemistry with his WR's, a sharp mind, the ability to adjust every playcall to the defenses presnap read, the knack to understand and read coverages better than anyone in the NFL, and the timing to get the ball right where it needs to be.

His WR's make a bunch of great catches that are not right on target, he gets people killed over the middle from lack of arm strength, and he does not throw the ball particularly well on the run. What he does though is so much better than these weaknesses. He is highly consistent with getting the ball where it needs to be versus the defense called, or checking to a play that will succeed rather than have an epic fail.

In short, athletically these guys are very similar. Payton's release may seem to be quicker, but that is also a factor of decisive decision making. It is the same thing that made Zach Thomas a Stud Mike for years, despite being slow. He diagnosed plays faster than guys with better speed and therefore got their quicker with mental agility rather than physical agility. Payton will look one way and be setting a safety up for the throw the other way. He already starts to throw before his eyes ever reach the target.
Peyton will go down as one of the most accurate qbs of all time.

He is compared to Marino in almost every way.

Just sayin...

fontaine
10-29-2009, 06:29 AM
what he has is:

A great oline
Three of the better receivers in the NFL in most knowledgeable circles
A great set of running backs
A very good coaching staff to help him prepare

Im not saying he is bd one bit, Im saying all he needs to do is manage the game to insure he gets the ball in the hands of his playmakers.

I think that's over simplifying the issue. Yes he has those things but he's working in a brand new offense to him which is key'ed on the QB being able to make the right pre snap reads correctly.

The issue isn't what kind of weapons he has, it's what's he accomplished with them. Just as an example take the 3rd down plays he's been making. Against New England on a key play, the Pats rolled their coverage towards Gaffney because they anticipated he was the target WR on that play. They were right. However, because Orton trusted his WR and had great timing on the play he was able to complete the pass to Gaff for a first down (I think) even though there was tight coverage on the guy.

That's the difference between having weapons on your offense and actually using them effectively on pressure situations like 3rd down plays.

BossChief
10-29-2009, 06:41 AM
I think that's over simplifying the issue. Yes he has those things but he's working in a brand new offense to him which is key'ed on the QB being able to make the right pre snap reads correctly.

The issue isn't what kind of weapons he has, it's what's he accomplished with them. Just as an example take the 3rd down plays he's been making. Against New England on a key play, the Pats rolled their coverage towards Gaffney because they anticipated he was the target WR on that play. They were right. However, because Orton trusted his WR and had great timing on the play he was able to complete the pass to Gaff for a first down (I think) even though there was tight coverage on the guy.

That's the difference between having weapons on your offense and actually using them effectively on pressure situations like 3rd down plays.

not trying to be argumentative, and I didnt see that play or notice it if I did, but thats not a great example.

Making presnap reads is part of the starting in the NFL at QB job.

If a defense rolls coverage to your slot guy that means a better option on the other side that is in man coverage and that is where the ball should go. You dont force the ball into coverage because you trust your arm unless you are Brett Favre and can chuck the thing at 200mph.

Mediator12
10-29-2009, 06:43 AM
Peyton will go down as one of the most accurate qbs of all time.

He is compared to Marino in almost every way.

Just sayin...

Accuracy is much more than completion %. Yes, Peyton ends up with an insane completion %, especially this year. However, he is not the most accurate thrower of the ball. This is how I know if people actually know what that means, versus just reading outcomes.

For every ball that hits a player in stride, he throws one that requires a great effort to catch. Watch Reggie Wayne's TD catches this year, and then watch the 3 INT's Peyton throws toward him. 2 of the four TD catches were one handed grabs, and all 3 INT's were terrible accuracy throws. Watch him throw balls over the middle that get there late and get Dallas Clark killed. Watch his deep balls to Garcon, half of them are no where near him.

To further make this case, watch how Brady threw the ball earlier this year. Did he hurt his arm or his knee? His arm was not the reason he was missing wide open receivers. His timing and chemsitry was completely off, especially inthe face of pressure from the Jets. It took playing in the snow versus a complete backup TEN secondary to get him back on track. Brady has been a very historically completion % passer as well, yet his accuracy has been completely terrible even in the recent games against awful competition.

Accuracy, as a measurable, is simply not completion %. However, Peyton's completion % has been so good because he throws the ball where it needs to be, when it needs to be there. His strengths overcome his average accuracy to the point where his completion % is much higher than a lot of "accurate" QB's who throw the ball to the wrong place or with the wrong timing.

BossChief
10-29-2009, 06:55 AM
Accuracy is much more than completion %. Yes, Peyton ends up with an insane completion %, especially this year. However, he is not the most accurate thrower of the ball. This is how I know if people actually know what that means, versus just reading outcomes.

For every ball that hits a player in stride, he throws one that requires a great effort to catch. Watch Reggie Wayne's TD catches this year, and then watch the 3 INT's Peyton throws toward him. 2 of the four TD catches were one handed grabs, and all 3 INT's were terrible accuracy throws. Watch him throw balls over the middle that get there late and get Dallas Clark killed. Watch his deep balls to Garcon, half of them are no where near him.

To further make this case, watch how Brady threw the ball earlier this year. Did he hurt his arm or his knee? His arm was not the reason he was missing wide open receivers. His timing and chemsitry was completely off, especially inthe face of pressure from the Jets. It took playing in the snow versus a complete backup TEN secondary to get him back on track. Brady has been a very historically completion % passer as well, yet his accuracy has been completely terrible even in the recent games against awful competition.

Accuracy, as a measurable, is simply not completion %. However, Peyton's completion % has been so good because he throws the ball where it needs to be, when it needs to be there. His strengths overcome his average accuracy to the point where his completion % is much higher than a lot of "accurate" QB's who throw the ball to the wrong place or with the wrong timing.

Are you trying to make a point that Orton is as accurate as Peyton? If you are, there is no hope in me continuing this conversation.

Orton will never be half the QB Peyton is and I basically hate the Colts.


Lets make it interesting, shall we?

I say we make a 1 month sig bet involving Ortons yardage production.

I say he doesnt have better production in any 6 game stretch to finish the season as the first six games.

interested?

If you are, let me know and we can work out the details.

azbroncfan
10-29-2009, 11:41 AM
Are you trying to make a point that Orton is as accurate as Peyton? If you are, there is no hope in me continuing this conversation.

Orton will never be half the QB Peyton is and I basically hate the Colts.


Lets make it interesting, shall we?

I say we make a 1 month sig bet involving Ortons yardage production.

I say he doesnt have better production in any 6 game stretch to finish the season as the first six games.

interested?

If you are, let me know and we can work out the details.

BossChief you will get schooled if your football knowledge is argued against Med's. I think you need to reread his posts. He isn't saying Orton is as accurate as Manning but Manning's accuracy is average but it is his mind that allows him to utilize the average accuracy. I don't think he ever said Orton's mind is very similar to Mannings.

TheReverend
10-29-2009, 11:47 AM
Accuracy is much more than completion %. Yes, Peyton ends up with an insane completion %, especially this year. However, he is not the most accurate thrower of the ball. This is how I know if people actually know what that means, versus just reading outcomes.

For every ball that hits a player in stride, he throws one that requires a great effort to catch. Watch Reggie Wayne's TD catches this year, and then watch the 3 INT's Peyton throws toward him. 2 of the four TD catches were one handed grabs, and all 3 INT's were terrible accuracy throws. Watch him throw balls over the middle that get there late and get Dallas Clark killed. Watch his deep balls to Garcon, half of them are no where near him.

To further make this case, watch how Brady threw the ball earlier this year. Did he hurt his arm or his knee? His arm was not the reason he was missing wide open receivers. His timing and chemsitry was completely off, especially inthe face of pressure from the Jets. It took playing in the snow versus a complete backup TEN secondary to get him back on track. Brady has been a very historically completion % passer as well, yet his accuracy has been completely terrible even in the recent games against awful competition.

Accuracy, as a measurable, is simply not completion %. However, Peyton's completion % has been so good because he throws the ball where it needs to be, when it needs to be there. His strengths overcome his average accuracy to the point where his completion % is much higher than a lot of "accurate" QB's who throw the ball to the wrong place or with the wrong timing.

This.

Peyton's arm is actually unbelievably NFL average, and his "legendary preparation" is over-rated, imo.

What sets him head and shoulders above every other player in the NFL is that every single play he manages to make the defense declare their coverage pre-snap.

Show cover 2, he knows he's hitting clark down the seam.

Show cover 3, he's taking X/Z slants for much bigger gain that they should be.

Show man under 2 deep, he's checking to a stretch run play.

THAT, and NOTHING to do with athleticism, is what makes him the best now and perhaps the best ever.

Rigs11
10-29-2009, 12:05 PM
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Rigs11
10-29-2009, 12:17 PM
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BossChief
10-29-2009, 12:27 PM
BossChief you will get schooled if your football knowledge is argued against Med's.

Thanks for the opinion. I like the guy, but some of the stuff he says is off base imho. Maybe Im wrong, its happened before.

I have made my offer to back my opinion to earn my stripes here and I haven't heard back. Im sure he is aware of my offer.

For the most part, I like it here. Some decent people. Evidently, alot of people appreciate my contributions as well, I have recieved a bunch of rep in my short time here. Im sure that is a rarity being a division rivals fan and all.

Please, dont get me confused with other resident Chief fans.

Popps
10-29-2009, 01:09 PM
Was watching the Dallas game again last night. Orton had some struggles early, but he really was a key part of why we won that game. The biggest play in the game was the forced fumble on Romo at their 10. The next biggest play was Orton avoiding a sack, stepping up and rocketing it to Eddie Royal for a drive-saving first down with 8 minutes to go in the game.

If anyone still has the game on Tivo, watch that play. He gets blasted. (Also roughing the QB on the play.) It was only a 12 yard (or so) completion, but was probably the single biggest example of the difference between a guy like Orton and some of the other guys people may want to lump him in with.

Winners find a way to make those little (big!) plays when they have to. It wasn't pretty, but it probably saved the game for us. (And Eddie made a great catch, too.)

Again, there's a reason that Orton has a winning record and Cutler remains a loser. Arm strength is about 30% of what makes a winning NFL QB.

Drek
10-29-2009, 01:49 PM
Thanks for the opinion. I like the guy, but some of the stuff he says is off base imho. Maybe Im wrong, its happened before.

I have made my offer to back my opinion to earn my stripes here and I haven't heard back. Im sure he is aware of my offer.

For the most part, I like it here. Some decent people. Evidently, alot of people appreciate my contributions as well, I have recieved a bunch of rep in my short time here. Im sure that is a rarity being a division rivals fan and all.

Please, dont get me confused with other resident Chief fans.

As someone who's talked football with Med for several years on this board I can outright GUARANTEE that you're wrong.

He's dead on about Peyton Manning and Tom Brady. Neither one is an all world athlete with the best of arm. They win because they consistently out think the opposition.

The three best QBs in the NFL right now (Manning, Brady, and Brees) have never been lauded for their raw arm strength. In fact, two of those three have had their arm strength and deep accuracy questioned as a reason why they can't stick in the NFL. Yet they're the guys putting up huge numbers while big armed guys like Cutler, Leftwich, etc. languish.

Med is completely right on this point. There is a major disparity between people who actually pay attention to the game itself and those who create opinions based on stat lines and media coverage. You're doing the later, Med does the former. Its not a discussion you'll come out on the right side of no matter how long you run with it.

Rock Chalk
10-29-2009, 01:51 PM
Thanks for the opinion. I like the guy, but some of the stuff he says is off base imho. Maybe Im wrong, its happened before.

I have made my offer to back my opinion to earn my stripes here and I haven't heard back. Im sure he is aware of my offer.

For the most part, I like it here. Some decent people. Evidently, alot of people appreciate my contributions as well, I have recieved a bunch of rep in my short time here. Im sure that is a rarity being a division rivals fan and all.

Please, dont get me confused with other resident Chief fans.

Trust the orangemane community when they tell you, Mediator knows his stuff.

You can pretend you are talking to an NFL Scout if that's what you feel like. I am not at liberty to divulge why this forum trusts his opinion over well, pretty much everyone else, but believe me when I say he has more credibility than you will ever have. Dont feel bad, he has more credibility than any poster here.

fontaine
10-29-2009, 01:54 PM
not trying to be argumentative, and I didnt see that play or notice it if I did, but thats not a great example.

Making presnap reads is part of the starting in the NFL at QB job.


Sure it's part of it, but that doesn't mean it happens. Look at the bottom feeders like Jamarcus Russell. The Raiders had practiced their first play on offense all week long and had prepared to execute it.

Jamarcus not only screwed that up but I think threw an int or fumbled it and botched the play entirely. That's Cable saying it, not me.

If a defense rolls coverage to your slot guy that means a better option on the other side that is in man coverage and that is where the ball should go. You dont force the ball into coverage because you trust your arm unless you are Brett Favre and can chuck the thing at 200mph.

Or you trust your timing and WR, or the other WRs are working routes that take longer to develop etc etc. We don't know those factors. What I do know is that it was the right pre snap read and Orton made it happen even when the defense was set up for it.

I see the argument your making here but the other side of the coin is just plain simple great execution.

I'm just saying the facts state your wrong, because if Orton was constantly or incorrectly forcing the ball into coverage then he wouldn't be top of the pile among QBs with least amount of turnovers.

Mediator12
10-29-2009, 02:39 PM
Are you trying to make a point that Orton is as accurate as Peyton? If you are, there is no hope in me continuing this conversation.

Orton will never be half the QB Peyton is and I basically hate the Colts.


Lets make it interesting, shall we?

I say we make a 1 month sig bet involving Ortons yardage production.

I say he doesnt have better production in any 6 game stretch to finish the season as the first six games.

interested?

If you are, let me know and we can work out the details.


No, I am not saying that Orton is as accurate as Peyton. I am saying that:

1. Accuracy is not the same as Completion %, for the reasons listed above.

2. It is a very common misperception that Peyton has a strong arm and is very NFL accurate. People see how insanely succesful his completion percentage, TD, and yardage numbers are and falsely attribute why he can do those things.

3. That any QB can improve the same traits that Peyton, Tom Brady, and Drew Brees count as strengths! Hint: its not their athleticism that gets it done, its their superior mental game that leads to such outstanding execution.

4. That this whole thread is about Kyle Orton not having peaked yet in this new system and team. We have established that everything he needs to succeed is already in DEN (Coaching, personnel, a solid Defense & ST's, and much more).

5. That Kyle Orton is the same type of player that Drew Brees and Tom Brady were coming out of College. Brees even came from the exact same school. Manning had a little more coming out than those 2 guys, but it has always been Manning's mind that set him apart from other QB's, not his arm.

That is what I have been patiently explaining for several pages. And thank you for doing what very few Broncos fans have been doing recently. Talking real football.

As for that bet, no thank you. Its not a very good bet. Orton may well exceed his yardage in another 6 game tilt, but DEN also might run the ball a lot more down the stretch since they take what the defnse gives them and they have been passing quite well recently. I have no idea how they will approach the rest of the teams on their schedule. They also have not had many fourth quarter leads to protect by running the ball. That is just not a good bet to accurately measure his success in the second half of the season.

If I think I can find one that would measure that, I'll give you a counter-offer. Until then, thanks for trying to post football related material ;D

BossChief
10-29-2009, 02:50 PM
I don't think he ever said Orton's mind is very similar to Mannings.

Like I said I like the guy, he sees the nuances of the game, not just the casual fan. Its just some of the things he said I dont agree with, that is what descusion boards are for...to discuss.

These are some things I didnt agree with.

He is no better or worse than Brady was during his early SB winning years in NE when the offense was average and the defense carried them.


What you have to have is an arm strong enough to make all the throws, a mind that is better prepared than the defense, the ability to manipulate a defense pre and post snap, an effective scheme that accentuates the strengths of your WR's, a solid Playcaller, a great gameplanner, and an even better guy to make adjustments during gametime. That is what Brady had to develop in NE and it is what Orton has right now in DEN.

On PM
See, that is where perception comes into play. I have watched him since he was at TEN, and he does not even come close to throwing a pretty ball consistently. His accuracy, especially before this year, is about average. He does not have anything more than an average arm either.

That is taking a couple instances out of alot of well thought out and well researched points.

I wish we had a broncos fan on the place I usually post at (coalition) that is knowledgeable like him. We used to have a resident intelligent bronco fan, but he had a baby and has been gone this year, I hope everything is going ok with him. broncostud....he may post here matter of fact.

BossChief
10-29-2009, 03:14 PM
broncostud can tell you that I flat out told everyone that Shannahan would be replaced whe the season was at a little over the halfway point and that Cutler should follow him after a couple more weeks, but that I doubted they would remove Cutler because of his perceived success when it didn't matter and him being their golden boy first round next elway untouchable kid.

+1 for the boy wonder on having the vision to get the value out of him when he did and to get as much as they did and a starter for it was brilliant maneuvering.

azbroncfan
10-29-2009, 04:15 PM
but it has always been Manning's mind that set him apart from other QB's, not his arm.
;D

Exactly because if it would of been just pure physical abilities Leaf would of been the #1 pick overall hands down.

BossChief
10-29-2009, 04:22 PM
No, I am not saying that Orton is as accurate as Peyton. I am saying that:

1. Accuracy is not the same as Completion %, for the reasons listed above.

2. It is a very common misperception that Peyton has a strong arm and is very NFL accurate. People see how insanely succesful his completion percentage, TD, and yardage numbers are and falsely attribute why he can do those things.

3. That any QB can improve the same traits that Peyton, Tom Brady, and Drew Brees count as strengths! Hint: its not their athleticism that gets it done, its their superior mental game that leads to such outstanding execution.

4. That this whole thread is about Kyle Orton not having peaked yet in this new system and team. We have established that everything he needs to succeed is already in DEN (Coaching, personnel, a solid Defense & ST's, and much more).

5. That Kyle Orton is the same type of player that Drew Brees and Tom Brady were coming out of College. Brees even came from the exact same school. Manning had a little more coming out than those 2 guys, but it has always been Manning's mind that set him apart from other QB's, not his arm.

That is what I have been patiently explaining for several pages. And thank you for doing what very few Broncos fans have been doing recently. Talking real football.

As for that bet, no thank you. Its not a very good bet. Orton may well exceed his yardage in another 6 game tilt, but DEN also might run the ball a lot more down the stretch since they take what the defnse gives them and they have been passing quite well recently. I have no idea how they will approach the rest of the teams on their schedule. They also have not had many fourth quarter leads to protect by running the ball. That is just not a good bet to accurately measure his success in the second half of the season.

If I think I can find one that would measure that, I'll give you a counter-offer. Until then, thanks for trying to post football related material ;D

good deal.

Id like to add that I look forward to many conversations with you in the future.

peace

errand
10-29-2009, 05:05 PM
He also hasn't had his first bad game, blown play that loses game, but it's coming. Every QB does that sometimes.

.

...and you think the board is filled with "Told you so" threads now?

i recall blasting Brian Griese for being a poor leader who also threw untimely INT's that cost us big time, and the day after he had a decent game, there was a "Take that errand" thread started by the usual suspects.LOL

errand
10-29-2009, 05:09 PM
http://www.codefromjames.com/wowhilarious/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/whore_mouth_cat.jpg

man...i just shot Pepsi outta my nose and all over my keyboard...LOLLOLLOL

errand
10-29-2009, 05:17 PM
huh? i mean maybe, but Orton's what, a 5 year vet? he doesn't really have a lot of room for growth. he is what he is, and imo, although he may improve a bit, this is pretty much it. Cassell was a guy who, prior to Brady going down, never played, so nobody really knew what he could do. Cassell and Orton are two very different situations.

I don't understand the Orton love and Cutler hate when just talking about the offense (step away from the drama for a minute). This offense is worse than last year. It has the same problem as last year, i.e., can move the ball between the 20s, but can't score (~9th in yards and ~17th in scoring). And they don't move the all between the 20s as good as last years offense.

People screamed bloody murder about the lack of the team last year to put points on the board, but now this year it isn't a problem? Take the blinders off.

I know people are blinded by the 6-0 start, but offense had very little to do with just about any of those wins. They do their part by not turning the ball over too much, but production wise, it's just been average.

Jay Cutler had 7 turnovers in the red zone last season alone.....Kyle has had two in almost 5 years of playing.

Now I have no clue where to look it up, but maybe someone can tell us how many points our opponents scored off of those red zone turnovers Jay had last year? What kind of point swing/momentum swing would that have been?.....not to mention it'd be pretty demoralizing to your team as well.

errand
10-29-2009, 05:22 PM
Orton though I said from the beginning seemed better then what media said. His TD to Int ratio always been good. .



Actually Orton's overall TD to INT ratio was 1:1 in Chicago (27 TD's to 25 INT's)...however his TD to INT ratio in the redzone was like 11:1 (22 TD's vs 2 INT's)

azbroncfan
10-29-2009, 06:18 PM
(step away from the drama for a minute). This offense is worse than last year. It has the same problem as last year, i.e., can move the ball between the 20s, but can't score (~9th in yards and ~17th in scoring). And they don't move the all between the 20s as good as last years offense.

People screamed bloody murder about the lack of the team last year to put points on the board, but now this year it isn't a problem? Take the blinders off.

I know people are blinded by the 6-0 start, but offense had very little to do with just about any of those wins. They do their part by not turning the ball over too much, but production wise, it's just been average.

This statements aren't true and not much thought was put into it. So far they are averaging the same amount of pts as last year. Last year the team started out averaging 37 ppg over the first three then teams figured them out and bam 19 ppg for the last 13. This year started off in a new, complex system and a QB that was lucky he was even playing with an open dislocation. Everyweek the offense has improved as players get more comfortable with the new system. They aren't as predictable as the find Marshall and chuck it at him regardless that was here last year.

BossChief
10-29-2009, 06:49 PM
...and you think the board is filled with "Told you so" threads now?

i recall blasting Brian Griese for being a poor leader who also threw untimely INT's that cost us big time, and the day after he had a decent game, there was a "Take that errand" thread started by the usual suspects.LOL

Orton is a very consistent qb that knows how to protect the ball and not give it away foolishly, you guys may lose a few games, but it wont be because of the QB pooping the bed. IMO anyway

Bronco Rob
10-30-2009, 09:36 AM
Telling the truth is not trolling. Seems to me like you are a teenager by your angry subjective comments though


Truth: Matt Sand Castle 63 Million Dollars 1-5


truth hurts


:thumbs:

BossChief
11-03-2009, 03:04 PM
i like orton, im a big ten guy and always knew he wouldnt light it up in the nfl, but that he would win games, or at least not lose them if that makes sense.

I dont know if he can get a whole lot better, i think the players around him can play much better. I know that. All of them. But i dont see him being a heave it 50 yards in the air 7 or 8 times a game like the other purdue kid, brees. They are different qbs.

There is nothing wrong with that.

You mentioned "what people perceive him as" well that is what he is, he finds the open receiver and doesnt give the ball away. That is 95% of what it takes to win big games.

He has the talent to flourish in that enviorment.

He has a line that will allow him to go through progressions effectively for the foreseeable future and the weapons to hurt people when he finds them.

Part of me wants you guys to self explode, and part wants you guys to fullfill expectations because when we get good, i want to see some special games...not a couple 8-8 teams battling it out...

Ill never forget the monday night game awhile back when willie davis caught the game winner and kept it inside the pylon.

Those are the games that make it fun to be a fan.

correct

BossChief
11-03-2009, 03:05 PM
I dont want to seem like a troll because Im not one, but really, are you trying to compare Kyle Orton to Tom Brady?

Dont make the mistake of setting him up for failure by setting the bar too high for him.

People did that with Plummer the day he got to town, comparing him with Elway....it didnt even matter that his last full year as starter he took you guys to the afc championship game...he wasnt Elway so he was ran out of town for a rookie when he had a good w/l record at the time.

Same with Cutler, the poor kid couldnt get out from the pressure no matter how hard Shannahan tried to take the pressure from him.

Thinking Orton will become Brady is somewhat unrealistic IMHO.

Maybe Im wrong, but I have seen him play since his college years and he is about the same guy now as he was back then.

LOL good one

BossChief
11-03-2009, 03:06 PM
I can see it already, two or three years from now half of this board will be calling for his head because he is a game manager.

12 wins and an afc championship wont be enough because of ____________________________<-----------------insert unrealistic expectation here

for some it only took one game

BossChief
11-03-2009, 03:08 PM
you're saying they will get better because of "X" reasons which I agree with, what you arent taking into account is defenses adjusting to playing the broncos with game tape to study off of. That is what is being missed IMHO.

They are playing teams that have no tape to watch on how the team calls plays, tendencies of its players they can key on, many other things that work against you after you get about 8-10 games on film. That is why players go through a "sophmore slump" and the actual slump starts toward the end of the previous year.

Look at Derek Anderson and the Browns before and after teams had tape to pick apart.

Dont take that statement the wrong way, Orton>Anderson, but I think you can understand what Im getting at.

If things go as I think they will, the positives cancel out the negatives and what your left with is what you have right now.

that make sense?

More of my trollin I guess....

Dagmar
11-03-2009, 03:09 PM
man...i just shot Pepsi outta my nose and all over my keyboard...LOLLOLLOL

Dude, SoCaL has Benned people for less!

BossChief
11-03-2009, 03:10 PM
dont like a voice of reason huh?

you got people already comparing Orton to Montana and Tom Brady after 6 games.

I sure was a jerk here too

BossChief
11-03-2009, 03:11 PM
If orton has two bad games, all the wins will be forgotten and people will start calling for his head.

Plummer was 39-15 as a starter in denver and was rushed out of town when he was 7-4 as a starter for a choking first round qb that never lead his team to a winning record...even with a 7-4 head start given to him by plummer.



...oh and did I mention he lead them to the AFC championship game the year before he was ran out of town?

theres another gem

BossChief
11-03-2009, 03:12 PM
Im just saying, dont fall into the trap of setting the bar so high he wont ever reach it.

If you expect Tom Brady or Joe Montana, and get Kyle Orton, you might be a little disapointed.

You should go read some threads about Trent when he got hurt and Damn huard won a couple games...really telling.

some didnt see this the first time around huh

Dagmar
11-03-2009, 03:15 PM
Dude, SoCaL has Benned people for less!

Typing skills... so poor!

BossChief
11-03-2009, 03:17 PM
Are you trying to make a point that Orton is as accurate as Peyton? If you are, there is no hope in me continuing this conversation.

Orton will never be half the QB Peyton is and I basically hate the Colts.


Lets make it interesting, shall we?

I say we make a 1 month sig bet involving Ortons yardage production.

I say he doesnt have better production in any 6 game stretch to finish the season as the first six games.

interested?

If you are, let me know and we can work out the details.

still looking for takers on this at the time very very bold statement....

BossChief
11-03-2009, 03:23 PM
Trying to make a point here that everyone thinks I am trolling here but will prove that isnt the case, I am just being realistic!

Have a good day!

Popps
11-03-2009, 03:47 PM
Trying to make a point here that everyone thinks I am trolling here but will prove that isnt the case, I am just being realistic!

Have a good day!

Wow, you mean... you took the easiest part of our schedule and you're willing to make a bet against someone who'll take the hardest part?

Brave guy, you are.

rastaman
11-03-2009, 03:52 PM
Truth: Matt Sand Castle 63 Million Dollars 1-5


truth hurts


:thumbs:

Truth: Kyle Orton and his 995K salary would have been 1-5 if he was KC Qb this season as well.

Matt Cassel, sure is wishing his mentor could have pulled off the trade to get him into Denver. Imagine Cassel behind center in Denver this year.....McD could possible have confidence in him to allow him to throw the ball deep.

Bronco Warrior
11-03-2009, 04:24 PM
Orton "Peaked" Sunday if Peaking means "Poop your pants".

Rigs11
11-03-2009, 04:27 PM
Didn't Orton get named AFC offensive player of the week 3 weeks ago?For gasp...leading a 92 yard drive?Bench his ass!Ha!

Bronx33
11-03-2009, 04:35 PM
Orton "Peaked" Sunday if Peaking means "Poop your pants".



The whole team pooped it's pants.

BossChief
11-03-2009, 04:53 PM
Wow, you mean... you took the easiest part of our schedule and you're willing to make a bet against someone who'll take the hardest part?

Brave guy, you are.

go back and read the comments throughout this thread they are VERY telling.

BossChief
11-03-2009, 05:02 PM
Truth: Kyle Orton and his 995K salary would have been 1-5 if he was KC Qb this season as well.

Matt Cassel, sure is wishing his mentor could have pulled off the trade to get him into Denver. Imagine Cassel behind center in Denver this year.....McD could possible have confidence in him to allow him to throw the ball deep.

he would be 2-4 IMHO

we dominated the Raiders in every single stat except Cassel threw two picks that there was no way Orton throws

Im not talking about the bottom feeder that is my favorite team, were talking about Orton.

You are right though, Cassel would surely be doing better in Denver than in KC and I'm sure he has wished from time to time he had been traded to Denver.

Id like to add that if denver started with our opening schedule, no way in hell they start 6-0. Real talk.

Popps
11-03-2009, 05:03 PM
go back and read the comments throughout this thread they are VERY telling.

Telling of what.

Enlighten me.

BossChief
11-03-2009, 05:12 PM
Telling of what.

Enlighten me.

Ill let you judge that for yourself.

My opinion though: the whole fan base has unrealistic expectations of what Orton is and what he can become...and that some are always waiting to get rid of the qb no matter how good he is because he will never be as good as Elway.

You guys jettisoned a qb in his prime after leading his team to the afc championship game because he wasnt Elway and the rookie was definatly gonna be, when that didnt work and they tore everything down and have a fabulous start to the following season at 6-0 and lose ONE GAME, there are multiple threads with hundreds and hundreds of posts debating the future of Orton because he cant throw a deep ball (something Elway did very well).

It will only get worse after the loss to Pittsburg.

In this thread before the Baltimore game, look at who Orton was being compared to: Tom Brady, Joe Montana, Peyton Manning...I mean come on.

There, I said it!

It is realistic from the outside in.

fire away!

Bronx33
11-03-2009, 05:17 PM
Ill let you judge that for yourself.

My opinion though: the whole fan base has unrealistic expectations of what Orton is and what he can become...and that some are always waiting to get rid of the qb no matter how good he is because he will never be as good as Elway.

You guys jettisoned a qb in his prime after leading his team to the afc championship game because he wasnt Elway and the rookie was definatly gonna be, when that didnt work and they tore everything down and have a fabulous start to the following season at 6-0 and lose ONE GAME, there are multiple threads with hundreds and hundreds of posts debating the future of Orton because he cant throw a deep ball (something Elway did very well).

It will only get worse after the loss to Pittsburg.

In this thread before the Baltimore game, look at who Orton was being compared to: Tom Brady, Joe Montana, Peyton Manning...I mean come on.

There, I said it!

It is realistic from the outside in.

fire away!


Generalize much?

bronco militia
11-03-2009, 05:32 PM
http://pic100.picturetrail.com/VOL637/2498345/22431097/377256448.jpg

surprise buttseks!

BossChief
11-03-2009, 05:37 PM
Generalize much?

Tellin' me you were the one fan that wanted to keep Plummer?

BossChief
11-03-2009, 05:39 PM
http://pic100.picturetrail.com/VOL637/2498345/22431097/377256448.jpg

surprise buttseks!

LOL

the look on his face is priceless!

Bronco Warrior
11-03-2009, 05:41 PM
http://pic100.picturetrail.com/VOL637/2498345/22431097/377256448.jpg

surprise buttseks!

Damn! That is funny! I wonder if Orton told McDaniels after.. "My Bad!"?

Wonder if Orton peaked during that suprise! He does kinda have that orgasm face! LMAO!!

Bronx33
11-03-2009, 05:43 PM
Tellin' me you were the one fan that wanted to keep Plummer?

huh?

You said: the whole fan base has unrealistic expectations of what Orton is and what he can become.

and then i said: generalize much

you are asserting that the entire broncos fan base thinks orton is better than he really is iam simply saying you are wrong in your assumption.:thumbsup:


ohhh and for the record i wasn't a big plummer fan.

BossChief
11-03-2009, 05:58 PM
huh?

You said: the whole fan base has unrealistic expectations of what Orton is and what he can become.

and then i said: generalize much

you are asserting that the entire broncos fan base thinks orton is better than he really is iam simply saying you are wrong in your assumption.:thumbsup:


ohhh and for the record i wasn't a big plummer fan.

I apologize if I offended you. I wont generalize as much, instead I will choose my words a little more carefully as there are obviously some fans that do get it and they shouldnt be grouped together with the fans that dont.

I think you could have won a championship with Plummer and can win one with Orton, thats basically what Im saying.

I know how this board has been to Chiefs fans (Bob) and I wanted to make sure to bump a thread I nailed the points to the wall in when the homerism was running wild. Turnaround is fair play and Bob has eaten a big bag of **** on here and I thought I would make sure the representation of the Chiefs nation isnt misconstrued.

Im sure if I was wrong, my posts would be bumped and I would be getting clowned but I am not Bob.


:strong: = my predictions


:drown: = Bobs predictions

Mediator12
11-03-2009, 06:38 PM
I apologize if I offended you. I wont generalize as much, instead I will choose my words a little more carefully as there are obviously some fans that do get it and they shouldnt be grouped together with the fans that dont.

I think you could have won a championship with Plummer and can win one with Orton, thats basically what Im saying.

I know how this board has been to Chiefs fans (Bob) and I wanted to make sure to bump a thread I nailed the points to the wall in when the homerism was running wild. Turnaround is fair play and Bob has eaten a big bag of **** on here and I thought I would make sure the representation of the Chiefs nation isnt misconstrued.

Im sure if I was wrong, my posts would be bumped and I would be getting clowned but I am not Bob.


:strong: = my predictions


:drown: = Bobs predictions

Actually, Plummer crapped his pants in the playoffs for 3 years. He never played any where near as well as he did in the regular season, that was why most of the fans turned against him. He could play when the pressure was not on and with leads, but he was never the comeback player he was supposedly in ARI for DEN.

As for Orton, stop over reaching the conclusion that people actually think Orton should be compared to any of those players right now. The whole point of that thread was to see if Orton could develop into a player like Brady over time. You have extrapulated that the WHOLE fan base now compares him to those players like they are right now. Nothing could be further than the truth, but you do not mind continuing the concept. In fact, you are the one who keeps bringing up the word expectations when it should read "could develop into a player like ..."

If someone has expectations that he will actually become that player, so be it, that's their opinion. However, IMHO, I think he has a chance to become as good as Brady is today if he continues to develop like he has this season. In no way do I expect him to become that player. It would be great if he did, but he has already proven many people wrong here on how he would fit this system. He has played as well over the last 7 games as he ever has in his career. His skillset IS getting better, yet people want to try and pile on after DEN's first loss like Kyle was the reason instead of the team not executing worth a darn. Fine, most fans are simply unable to analyze anything without their emotion and bias destroying their objectivity.

Speaking of which, the problem I have with your analysis to this point, is you are anchoring on your point that Orton is and always will be average. Nothing you have mentioned in any of your posts would concede the possibility that he might just be better than that some day. That kind of closed viewpoint makes anything you say seem extremely outcome oriented and very unaware of the process that leads to the outcome. And, since you have already determined without a shadow of a doubt the outcome that Orton is average, then why continue discussing it with you?

Popps
11-03-2009, 07:20 PM
I know how this board has been to Chiefs fans (Bob) and I wanted to make sure to bump a thread I nailed the points to the wall in when the homerism was running wild. Turnaround is fair play and Bob has eaten a big bag of **** on here and I thought I would make sure the representation of the Chiefs nation isnt misconstrued.

Chiefs nation?

Hilarious!

A few thousand mullets in the boonies rooting for a crap team?


Who cares what you hicks think. Go **** yourself. Better yet, go **** Bob. It's as close as he's going to get.

Soul-Bronco
11-03-2009, 07:23 PM
Damn! That is funny! I wonder if Orton told McDaniels after.. "My Bad!"?

Wonder if Orton peaked during that suprise! He does kinda have that orgasm face! LMAO!!

of course you would know what a guys face looks like when they orgasm, i bet you have gotten alot of close up views of other men peaking

BossChief
11-03-2009, 08:00 PM
Actually, Plummer crapped his pants in the playoffs for 3 years. He never played any where near as well as he did in the regular season, that was why most of the fans turned against him. He could play when the pressure was not on and with leads, but he was never the comeback player he was supposedly in ARI for DEN.

As for Orton, stop over reaching the conclusion that people actually think Orton should be compared to any of those players right now. The whole point of that thread was to see if Orton could develop into a player like Brady over time. You have extrapulated that the WHOLE fan base now compares him to those players like they are right now. Nothing could be further than the truth, but you do not mind continuing the concept. In fact, you are the one who keeps bringing up the word expectations when it should read "could develop into a player like ..."

If someone has expectations that he will actually become that player, so be it, that's their opinion. However, IMHO, I think he has a chance to become as good as Brady is today if he continues to develop like he has this season. In no way do I expect him to become that player. It would be great if he did, but he has already proven many people wrong here on how he would fit this system. He has played as well over the last 7 games as he ever has in his career. His skillset IS getting better, yet people want to try and pile on after DEN's first loss like Kyle was the reason instead of the team not executing worth a darn. Fine, most fans are simply unable to analyze anything without their emotion and bias destroying their objectivity.

Speaking of which, the problem I have with your analysis to this point, is you are anchoring on your point that Orton is and always will be average. Nothing you have mentioned in any of your posts would concede the possibility that he might just be better than that some day. That kind of closed viewpoint makes anything you say seem extremely outcome oriented and very unaware of the process that leads to the outcome. And, since you have already determined without a shadow of a doubt the outcome that Orton is average, then why continue discussing it with you?

I think you missed one of my points, I think he will get better. BUT, to be fair and realistic, so will defenses at taking away what he likes to do, so his improvement might get cancelled out production-wise because opposing defenses recognizing his tenancies and such. With a good coach like McD, he should be able to stay with the curve but I would be surprised if he gets much in front of it.

I don't think he will ever be a guy that throws 5 tds in 1 quarter as Brady did, or put the team on his back and win a championship as he did in the early 2000s. I don't see him ever leading an offense like Drew does. I just don't, and I may very well be wrong. It wouldn't be the first time. I make fairly bold statements and sometimes they backfire. I have thick skin or I wouldn't be here.

I understand why your opinion holds weight, you have a good football iq and don't overreact as alot of guys do and that shows me you're level headed and likely don't make irrational decisions because of emotions.

Its ok to disagree and still hold a conversation. If it wasn't I wouldn't even come here because it would be boring.

BossChief
11-03-2009, 08:07 PM
Chiefs nation?

Hilarious!

A few thousand mullets in the boonies rooting for a crap team?


Who cares what you hicks think. Go **** yourself. Better yet, go **** Bob. It's as close as he's going to get.

...you do know what studies show about people that make homosexual jokes right?

they love the cock

steeledude
11-03-2009, 08:34 PM
Tellin' me you were the one fan that wanted to keep Plummer?

I wanted to keep Plummer. So what? He played great until the AFC Championship Game and I still don't think that was his fault. The pressure on him because of the o-line was insurmountable. And the defense didn't stop a thing. Plummer gave it his all as he always did.

Plummer led Denver to beat the Tom Brady Patriots in the post season--something that hadn't been done before (of course Champ was necessary in that), but Plummer consistently won in Denver.

BossChief
11-03-2009, 09:36 PM
I wanted to keep Plummer. So what? He played great until the AFC Championship Game and I still don't think that was his fault. The pressure on him because of the o-line was insurmountable. And the defense didn't stop a thing. Plummer gave it his all as he always did.

Plummer led Denver to beat the Tom Brady Patriots in the post season--something that hadn't been done before (of course Champ was necessary in that), but Plummer consistently won in Denver.

thanks for help making my point!

Go back and re-read this topic and you will see that.

carry on....thanks

Bronco Warrior
11-03-2009, 09:44 PM
of course you would know what a guys face looks like when they orgasm, i bet you have gotten alot of close up views of other men peaking

Speaking of man crushes, are you still following me?
It is a joke refering to "Peaking" and Buttseks. Oh yeah and sorry if you are so ugly and the chicks you get with aren't hot enough to have ever seen yourself on video tape, or ever seen a porn! Must be sad to be you!

Personally your obsession is kinda creeping me out!

steeledude
11-03-2009, 10:11 PM
thanks for help making my point!

Go back and re-read this topic and you will see that.

carry on....thanks

I mean I know what you're saying. I guess I'm bitter because people hated Plummer so much. Now I see the same thing with Cutler. Now they're jumping on Orton's jock and are gonna turn on him too. Though I don't like Orton at all. I like my QBs gunslingin' it all over the field.

Soul-Bronco
11-03-2009, 10:13 PM
Speaking of man crushes, are you still following me?
It is a joke refering to "Peaking" and Buttseks. Oh yeah and sorry if you are so ugly and the chicks you get with aren't hot enough to have ever seen yourself on video tape, or ever seen a porn! Must be sad to be you!

Personally your obsession is kinda creeping me out!

lol obsession, no its just that i cant stand the stupidity that you post on this board.
and btw im a 23 year old masters of occupational therapy student going to Florida International University in the heart of miami. imagine an all you can eat buffet of all diffrent types of exotic chics. i have banged hotter chicks than your 44 year old single ass wacks off to late at night.

hard to believe for someone living in utah where the cows look better than the women. but yeah lets hear some more about your days being an apprentice at the great BYU

Bronco Warrior
11-03-2009, 10:43 PM
lol obsession, no its just that i cant stand the stupidity that you post on this board.
and btw im a 23 year old masters of occupational therapy student going to Florida International University in the heart of miami. imagine an all you can eat buffet of all diffrent types of exotic chics. i have banged hotter chicks than your 44 year old single ass wacks off to late at night.

hard to believe for someone living in utah where the cows look better than the women. but yeah lets hear some more about your days being an apprentice at the great BYU

Young and dumb and hasn't done ****t, that explains alot! It's funny BYU is consistantly in the top 5 on Playboys hottest Co-Eds and florida has never cracked the top ten..lol! I've been to miami 4 times twice for broncos games and twice to leave port on Norwiegen Cruise lines, stayed at the Omni! Ugliest people I have ever seen. Guess all the hot people don't go there. And your coach Meyer got his rep here at Utah University, guess that must chap your ass! Let me know when you have down something relevent in life besides play Madden in your mom's basement and whack off to "Girls Gone Wild Videos"

EDIt: Damn misread and gave you way more cred than you deserved. Thought for a minute you went to a real school! You know like Florida U!

Bronco Warrior
11-03-2009, 10:46 PM
FIU~ isn't their mascot the Fighting PudPullers?

Popps
11-03-2009, 10:47 PM
...you do know what studies show about people that make homosexual jokes right?

they love the cock

Dude, again... why would you ever think anyone would give a **** what you and 10 hicks in ****sville think of our team?

Seriously, when was the last time KC was even relevant to pro sports, much less the NFL.

Bob at least provides unintentional comedic value. You're just painfully useless and dull.

Soul-Bronco
11-03-2009, 10:51 PM
Young and dumb and hasn't done ****t, that explains alot! It's funny BYU is consistantly in the top 5 on Playboys hottest Co-Eds and florida has never cracked the top ten..lol! I've been to miami 4 times twice for broncos games and twice to leave port on Norwiegen Cruise lines, stayed at the Omni! Ugliest people I have ever seen. Guess all the hot people don't go there. And your coach Meyer got his rep here at Utah University, guess that must chap your ass! Let me know when you have down something relevent in life besides play Madden in your mom's basement and whack off to "Girls Gone Wild Videos"

kind of sounds like a mirror image of your life ey? and L O freakin L you seriously have NEVER been to miami if you really just said that. That really showed me how much of a liar you are. you too pathethic to keep talking too. Miami has hotter chicks in the super market than the state of utah. PERIOD. lol playboys hottest co-eds sluts looking for money with fake ta ta's. Its all natural down here bro, unless you count all the chicks from columbia with plastic already done to them. But its ok keep dreaming about the 70's chicks from BYU

meyer LOL thats gainsville buddy. all about THE U here, meyer can kiss my ass

its ok, i get it your the guy that was kinda cool back in the 70's then you got old and are now alone. really dude its ok

Boobs McGee
11-03-2009, 10:57 PM
Young and dumb and hasn't done ****t, that explains alot! It's funny BYU is consistantly in the top 5 on Playboys hottest Co-Eds and florida has never cracked the top ten..lol! I've been to miami 4 times twice for broncos games and twice to leave port on Norwiegen Cruise lines, stayed at the Omni! Ugliest people I have ever seen. Guess all the hot people don't go there. And your coach Meyer got his rep here at Utah University, guess that must chap your ass! Let me know when you have down something relevent in life besides play Madden in your mom's basement and whack off to "Girls Gone Wild Videos"

EDIt: Damn misread and gave you way more cred than you deserved. Thought for a minute you went to a real school! You know like Florida U!

are you talking about their top ten PARTY schools?

Soul-Bronco
11-03-2009, 11:01 PM
TOP 5 COED SCHOOLS

5. Ole miss
4. UF
3. FSU
2.USC
1. ASU

2 of the top three are from florida, most of the students are from the SOUTH FLORIDA area.

no byu anywhere in sight, maybe in the 70's LOL

Man you look like more of an idiot everytime you post

http://www.popcrunch.com/hottest-student-bodies-the-50-best-colleges-ranked-by-looks-1-10/

Bronco Warrior
11-03-2009, 11:10 PM
are you talking about their top ten PARTY schools?

No Hottest Co-ed schools...BYU a party school? lol! their code of conduct would make Mother Theresa seem feel like a wild woman!

As usual Soul Bronco uses his own sources, and only the ones that sorta support his case. Yes Florida might have more slutty drunken hoes but that isn't what I said.

Soul-Bronco
11-03-2009, 11:12 PM
No Hottest Co-ed schools...BYU a party school? lol! their code of conduct would make Mother Theresa seem feel like a wild woman!

As usual Soul Bronco uses his own sources, and only the ones that sorta support his case. Yes Florida might have more slutty drunken hoes but that isn't what I said.

where is your source then? show me evidence of BYU being so great with women

Bronco Warrior
11-03-2009, 11:12 PM
Ive been to Florida, have you been to Utah Soul? Didn't think so. I have a basis for comparison, you do not! But hey say something clever like you would never be caugth dead is a loser state like Utah!

Soul-Bronco
11-03-2009, 11:13 PM
No Hottest Co-ed schools...BYU a party school? lol! their code of conduct would make Mother Theresa seem feel like a wild woman!

As usual Soul Bronco uses his own sources, and only the ones that sorta support his case. Yes Florida might have more slutty drunken hoes but that isn't what I said.

oh so you mean play boy co eds, chicks that show there tits for money? oh ok much better

Bronco Warrior
11-03-2009, 11:16 PM
where is your source then? show me evidence of BYU being so great with women

right off the top A friend of mine.....
showhype.com/story/miss_coed_shannon_noel/

Soul-Bronco
11-03-2009, 11:16 PM
Ive been to Florida, have you been to Utah Soul? Didn't think so. I have a basis for comparison, you do not! But hey say something clever like you would never be caugth dead is a loser state like Utah!

your right i have never been!
do i wanna go ??? NO
who would want to go to Utah??
hot chicks no
fun no
cow tipping yes?

Boobs McGee
11-03-2009, 11:19 PM
No Hottest Co-ed schools...BYU a party school? lol! their code of conduct would make Mother Theresa seem feel like a wild woman!

As usual Soul Bronco uses his own sources, and only the ones that sorta support his case. Yes Florida might have more slutty drunken hoes but that isn't what I said.

LOL dude you're so full of it. i WENT to a mormon school, BYU Idaho (formerly RICKS).

I know alllll about their code of conduct, but you're obviously mistaken somehow, because the only time byu's ever been mentioned in a playboy "coed list" is when they're being made fun of. They can't wear revealing clothing, remember? Kind of defeats the purpose of being included in a nude art magazine's top 5.

Yes, they have hot coeds.

No, they aren't on any mythical playboy list. The lists they have for colleges aren't even really THEIRS. They just report them.

Get a ****ing clue. There are usually three florida schools on almost EVERY top ten list regarding the hotness of college coeds.

you fail.

Soul-Bronco
11-03-2009, 11:20 PM
right off the top A friend of mine.....
showhype.com/story/miss_coed_shannon_noel/

Hilarious!Hilarious!Hilarious!

still no proof of BYU CONSISTENTLY being in the top 5 like you claim. lol dude your to funny

go to face book and search florida international univeristy, i guarentee you that just the in the profile pictures you will find a crap load of chics way hotter than your so called friend who is 24 years old. i highly doubt an old washed up crusty 44 year old knows her

Bronco Warrior
11-03-2009, 11:20 PM
www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvNb2bEdotw

Bronco Warrior
11-03-2009, 11:23 PM
Bronconia. When did you go to Ricks?

Boobs McGee
11-03-2009, 11:24 PM
www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvNb2bEdotw

please, keep failing.

No BYU girls in that clip. Yes, arizona ALSO has more hot girls on lists than BYU does. great point

Soul-Bronco
11-03-2009, 11:25 PM
watch it and weap dude, i dont even have to post the millions of videos that come up if you type in hot chicks and miami

<object width="560" height="340"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/L4WI36sOlQ8&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/L4WI36sOlQ8&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="560" height="340"></embed></object>


like i said, a buffet of all diffrent types of chics. I myself like the chics making out at 2 59

Boobs McGee
11-03-2009, 11:25 PM
bronconia. When did you go to ricks?

99-2000.

Bronco Warrior
11-03-2009, 11:29 PM
your right i have never been!
do i wanna go ??? NO
who would want to go to Utah??
hot chicks no
fun no
cow tipping yes?

Hot Chicks YES!
Best outdoor Rec Winter and Summer YES!
Most achololics per capita YES lol!

For the record Cow tipping was rampant untill it was outlawed just before the 2002 Olympics! :ROFL:

For the record Shannon "Miss Coed" has been on my TV show half a dozen times..does that make us friends?

Bronco Warrior
11-03-2009, 11:31 PM
99-2000.

It was still Ricks then right? My Sister and Brother in Law went there. Bro in LAw Ryan Schmidt is in the Ricks Sports HOF..lol...and his Dad was the HC of the football team in 80-81. Girl Friends Daughter goes there now. :thumbsup:

Boobs McGee
11-03-2009, 11:32 PM
Hot Chicks YES!
Best outdoor Rec Winter and Summer YES!
Most achololics per capita YES lol!

For the record Cow tipping was rampant untill it was outlawed just before the 2002 Olympics! :ROFL:

For the record Shannon "Miss Coed" has been on my TV show half a dozen times..does that make us friends?

I don't even know what to say at this point. You're reaching notoriety for all the wrong reasons.

Stick to what you know dood.

Mullets, jean shorts, and 52 year old groupies.

edit: seriously man, after all the stuff I've read of yours in the last few weeks, I don't believe anything that comes out of your mouth. So good luck on the mane. As far as RICKS goes, great school. don't know anyone you allegedly know there. They asked me not to come back haha.

Bronco Warrior
11-03-2009, 11:36 PM
I don't even know what to say at this point. You're reaching notoriety for all the wrong reasons.

Stick to what you know dood.

Mullets, jean shorts, and 52 year old groupies.

Never had a mullet or Jean shorts, or 54 year old groupies but hey keep coming with the irrelevent false statements if they make you feel better. Actually was having a respect ful conversation with you about your school.

Bronco Warrior
11-03-2009, 11:37 PM
edit: seriously man, after all the stuff I've read of yours in the last few weeks, I don't believe anything that comes out of your mouth. So good luck on the mane. As far as RICKS goes, great school. don't know anyone you allegedly know there. They asked me not to come back haha.

Frankly I'm not suprised..you were at Baby BYU!

Soul-Bronco
11-03-2009, 11:40 PM
Young and dumb and hasn't done ****t, that explains alot! It's funny BYU is consistantly in the top 5 on Playboys hottest Co-Eds and florida has never cracked the top ten..lol! I've been to miami 4 times twice for broncos games and twice to leave port on Norwiegen Cruise lines, stayed at the Omni! Ugliest people I have ever seen. Guess all the hot people don't go there. And your coach Meyer got his rep here at Utah University, guess that must chap your ass! Let me know when you have down something relevent in life besides play Madden in your mom's basement and whack off to "Girls Gone Wild Videos"

EDIt: Damn misread and gave you way more cred than you deserved. Thought for a minute you went to a real school! You know like Florida U!

<object width="560" height="340"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/lhvZBSzx2hY&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/lhvZBSzx2hY&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="560" height="340"></embed></object>
one more before getting some sleep

Bronco Warrior
11-03-2009, 11:48 PM
Jaimee Bergman 45th Anniversery Playboy playmate. Ex BYU Coed! AKA "B J Cummings on 'Son of the Beach" and the hot blonde in the Porshe at the start of "Gone in Sixty Seconds". I'm tired that's all I got..lol!