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Bronx33
10-23-2009, 01:33 PM
Health Reform: House Majority Leader Steny Hoyer says it's constitutional to mandate insurance coverage. Congress, he insists, has "broad authority" to make us buy things to provide for the "general welfare."

Democrats' Alice In Wonderland interpretation of what they consider to be a "living Constitution," where words mean what they say they mean based on political considerations, gets more bizarre by the minute.

At his weekly press briefing Tuesday, Hoyer was asked, as we have asked, just where in the Constitution was Congress granted the power to force people to buy health insurance or force those who refuse to pay a penalty (or by its true description, a tax.)

Hoyer pointed to Article 1, Section 8, which gives the Congress the power to raise taxes in order to "provide for common Defence and general Welfare of the United States." Does that give Congress the authority to buy things like health insurance?

Human Events editor-at-large Terence P. Jeffrey makes the point that broccoli is good for our general welfare, but can Congress make us buy it and charge us if we don't? Losing a few pounds would help us all and reduce health care costs, but can Congress mandate health club memberships? Hoyer thinks so.

"Well, in promoting the general welfare the Constitution obviously gives broad authority to Congress, broad authority to effect that end," Hoyer said. "The end we're trying to effect is to make health care affordable, so I think clearly this is within our constitutional responsibility." Really.

We've been down this road before. In 1994, Hillary Clinton's secretive health care task force was trying to nationalize health care. "A mandate requiring all individuals to purchase health insurance would be an unprecedented form of federal action," the Congressional Budget Office concluded. "The government has never required people to buy any good or service as a condition of lawful residence in the United States."

Nor can it, according to constitutional lawyer David B. Rivkin. "Congressman Hoyer is wrong," he said. "The notion that the general welfare language is a basis for a specific legislative exercise is all silly because if that's true, because general welfare language is inherently limitless, then the federal government can do anything."

Perhaps Hoyer gets his advice from constitutional scholar Joe Biden who would surely tell him that under Article 1, Section 2 direct federal taxes on targeted individuals is unlawful. It says that "direct Taxes shall be apportioned among the several states .. . according to their numbers ... ." That's why its enactment required a constitutional amendment — the 16th


Finance Committee Chairman Max Baucus of Montana argues that this tax on the uninsured is really an "indirect" excise tax like the gasoline tax. Except that excise taxes are taxes on things that people purchase, not on the people themselves. It taxes what they do, not what they don't do.

When the Senate Finance Committee was drafting the Baucus bill, Sen. Orrin Hatch tried to make exactly this point. Hatch tried to submit an amendment asking for an expedited judicial review on this and other constitutional problems with proposed health care reform. Baucus ruled that was a matter for the Judiciary Committee and Finance couldn't touch it.

"Even if the Supreme Court has expanded the commerce power, there has been one constant," Hatch noted. "Congress was always regulating activities in which people chose to engage." He added that "rather than regulate what people have chosen to do, it would require them to do something they have not chosen to do at all."

Rivkin and Lee A. Casey, who served in the Justice Department under Presidents Reagan and George H.W. Bush, wrote in the Washington Post that in United States vs. Lopez in 1995, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that Congress can only regulate human activity that is truly commercial at its core. One does not go to a doctor to engage in commercial activity.

Hoyer sees no problem with his interpretation. So just be quiet and eat your broccoli.

Rohirrim
10-23-2009, 01:54 PM
Only in America could this scenario unravel:

Poor guy wants insurance but can't afford it.
Government steps in to help.
Goverment passes program to make insurance affordable.
Poor guy still can't afford it.
Government fines poor guy for not buying insurance.
Poor guy can't pay fine.
Government locks up poor guy.
Poor guy is now insured.

Whiskey Tango Foxtrot. ;D

BroncoBuff
10-23-2009, 02:24 PM
Everyone please stop framing your political arguments in Constitutional terms. I know it sounds good to use the Constitution as support for your views, but it's just wrong to do so (and rightly should embarrass you if you were better educated on the scope and application of it).

Closest thing to "shredding the Constitution" in my adult lifetime occurred with domestic phone taps under George W. Bush, and any torture that might have occurred on American soil (which includes Guantanemo).

Please just trust me ... you can make your arguments, fine. But refrain from this silliness.

BroncoBuff
10-23-2009, 02:29 PM
"Promoting the general welfare the Constitution obviously gives broad authority to Congress, broad authority to effect that end," Hoyer said.
Massively true ... the 'general welfare' and 'commerce clauses' give Congress virtual free reign. The checks and balances include executive veto power and judicial review. And judicial review was gutted, for the substance of legislation anyway, in a footnote within the SCOTUS decision 'U.S. v Carolene Products" in the 1930s. The Carolene decision was a mistake, Congress has had far too much
latitude since then, but it is what it is. It's the law.

c_lazy_r
10-23-2009, 03:15 PM
Only in America could this scenario unravel:

Poor guy wants insurance but can't afford it.
Government steps in to help.
Goverment passes program to make insurance affordable.
Poor guy still can't afford it.
Government fines poor guy for not buying insurance.
Poor guy can't pay fine.
Government locks up poor guy.
Poor guy is now insured.

Whiskey Tango Foxtrot. ;D


Very nice!

;D

Rohirrim
10-23-2009, 03:47 PM
Massively true ... the 'general welfare' and 'commerce clauses' give Congress virtual free reign. The checks and balances include executive veto power and judicial review. And judicial review was gutted, for the substance of legislation anyway, in a footnote within the SCOTUS decision 'U.S. v Carolene Products" in the 1930s. The Carolene decision was a mistake, Congress has had far too much
latitude since then, but it is what it is. It's the law.

I understand the "decision" to give corporations personhood in Santa Clara v UP Railroad was also just a footnote.

TexanBob
10-23-2009, 04:20 PM
Wait. Wait. We heard the libs complain for eight years that Bush was shredding the Constitution. The Dems merely wipe their asses with the Constitution.

But, seriously, folks. The Democrats promised openness in Congress. They promised all legislation would be posted on the internet a full 72 hours before it can be voted on.

Now that they want something that can potentially take over 1/6th of the shrinking American economy, they have to amend two different bills and pass it as attachments to get it through the Senate, then make more changes in conference committee with only one party present and then likely try to pass it without it being posted on the internet beforehand, without it being debated openly in the House and Senate chambers and without the bill being fully written before it is put to a vote, allowing congressmen to lie about what is in/not in the legislation because it hasn't even been finished yet.

Whether you support government-run health care or not, is THIS how you think important legislation should be passed? Does it not make a mockery of the entire concept of taxation without representation?

Something that takes this many shenanigans, obfuscation and secrecy to pass ought to be objected to just for the dishonest way they have tried to get it passed - minus all the openness and transparency they promised when they were campaigning.

SPfloppy
10-23-2009, 04:31 PM
Only in America could this scenario unravel:

Poor guy wants insurance but can't afford it.
Government steps in to help.
Goverment passes program to make insurance affordable.
Poor guy still can't afford it.
Government fines poor guy for not buying insurance.
Poor guy can't pay fine.
Government locks up poor guy.
Poor guy is now insured.

Whiskey Tango Foxtrot. ;D

:thumbs: Way to go Roh, you summed that one up better than I could've

rastaman
10-23-2009, 07:05 PM
Only in America could this scenario unravel:

Poor guy wants insurance but can't afford it.
Government steps in to help.
Goverment passes program to make insurance affordable.
Poor guy still can't afford it.
Government fines poor guy for not buying insurance.
Poor guy can't pay fine.
Government locks up poor guy.
Poor guy is now insured.

Whiskey Tango Foxtrot. ;D

The watered down Public Option is only a precursor for eventual Single Payer Universal Health care for All. This way, the poorest of the poor will be covered. No big deal it just takes time.

Publican Option in 2009-2010 and Single Payer-Universal Health care by 2015-2017.

JJJ
10-23-2009, 10:21 PM
The watered down Public Option is only a precursor for eventual Single Payer Universal Health care for All. This way, the poorest of the poor will be covered. No big deal it just takes time.

Publican Option in 2009-2010 and Single Payer-Universal Health care by 2015-2017.

You are fully right and this is why the public option is so bitterly opposed by the right. Once that ball gets rolling it cannot be stopped.

JJJ
10-23-2009, 10:49 PM
Everyone please stop framing your political arguments in Constitutional terms. I know it sounds good to use the Constitution as support for your views, but it's just wrong to do so (and rightly should embarrass you if you were better educated on the scope and application of it).

Closest thing to "shredding the Constitution" in my adult lifetime occurred with domestic phone taps under George W. Bush, and any torture that might have occurred on American soil (which includes Guantanemo).

Please just trust me ... you can make your arguments, fine. But refrain from this silliness.

I think the Constitution was written in simple language by the founding fathers so the people could actually understand it and discuss it. I don't think they ever had the intention that well-educated lawyers should be the only ones to discuss its application and sublties. I think this is exactly what they were trying to avoid in fact. I know the lawyers have turned it into their personal playground but it supposed to be a document for the people.

I completely reject your call for refraining from discussing it as a basis for political discourse. Let the silliness go on I say.

Garcia Bronco
10-24-2009, 05:18 AM
Massively true ... the 'general welfare' and 'commerce clauses' give Congress virtual free reign. The checks and balances include executive veto power and judicial review. And judicial review was gutted, for the substance of legislation anyway, in a footnote within the SCOTUS decision 'U.S. v Carolene Products" in the 1930s. The Carolene decision was a mistake, Congress has had far too much
latitude since then, but it is what it is. It's the law.

No it doesn't. The genral welfare clause grants no direct power and is utterly subjective.

barryr
10-24-2009, 11:23 AM
Anyone who has served in the military, like myself, has experienced socialized medicine and it's nothing to be proud about or anyone with any sanity would want. But of course that's why liberals want it.

BroncoBuff
10-24-2009, 11:39 AM
No it doesn't. The genral welfare clause grants no direct power and is utterly subjective.

In your world maybe.

I'm talking about the United States.

Seamus
10-24-2009, 11:04 PM
Everyone please stop framing your political arguments in Constitutional terms. I know it sounds good to use the Constitution as support for your views, but it's just wrong to do so (and rightly should embarrass you if you were better educated on the scope and application of it).

Closest thing to "shredding the Constitution" in my adult lifetime occurred with domestic phone taps under George W. Bush, and any torture that might have occurred on American soil (which includes Guantanemo).

Please just trust me ... you can make your arguments, fine. But refrain from this silliness.

I am surprised your head can fit into this board! Why would anybody try to use the constitution for framing political arguments? Wait, who was it written for? I didn't think it was exclusive to BroncoMcBuff. Check the Preamble again, it declares the Constitution to have been created by the "People of the United States".

Oh, so the domestic phone taps under George W. Bush continued under this current administration with expanded powers isn't an issue for you? Guantanemo and detainees there are covered under the constitution? Please explain.

Silliness on! Start with the 10th Amendment. General welfare doesn’t mean make the people dependent on a government. That creates oppression. Notice it says PROMOTE. It doesn’t say provide.

Great article: http://westernfrontamerica.com/2009/10/22/general-welfare-clause-abused-words-constitution/

BroncoBuff
10-24-2009, 11:37 PM
Sorry Seamus, that's just not how it works.

Garcia Bronco
10-26-2009, 09:37 AM
In your world maybe.

I'm talking about the United States.

Define General Welfare.

And what powers does the "general welfare clause" give the government?


If you follow your argument to conclusion...anything can be for the general welfare. Further more the 10th amendment was written and ratified after the general welfare clause was wrttien. meaning that the 10th amendment overrules it.