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View Full Version : Steve Spagnuolo or Josh Mcdaniels


Hartley
10-21-2009, 07:48 AM
Rams are 0-6, remember when we wanted this guy? I cant say that i have watched a single Rams game yet this season, so i cant really judge, however, they may end up winless this season.

I know its only week 7 in the NFL, but i mean did we get the better end of the stick or what? Ha.

Well then theres Rex Ryan, 3-3 Jets, ill give him some credit even though the jets are looking at a downward spiral.

How about Raheem Morris in Tampa?

I know Denver was the premier position in the offseason and we probably got first choice from the available candidates. I know its week 7, but from the looks of it we picked the right guy in Mcdaniels.

Garcia Bronco
10-21-2009, 07:50 AM
Spag will most likely be gone, and the same with Morris after two seasons. They aren't good at it right now, and who knows if they'll actually get any better. Rex Ryan's team is decent, but their offense is terrible.

Bronco Warrior
10-21-2009, 07:55 AM
Not a contest! Not only is Josh the best rookie coach this year he is the best in recent memory. The guy was cursed by being a Belicheck disciple, all the others have crashed and burned by Josh decided he was going to be his own man and It's working for him! You remember when Reagan broke the 20 yrs assassination curse? Josh is Ronald Reagan! :rofl:

bowtown
10-21-2009, 07:57 AM
Not really a fair assessment yet. Both those guys walked into a lot less talent than McDaniels.

Hartley
10-21-2009, 08:04 AM
Not really a fair assessment yet. Both those guys walked into a lot less talent than McDaniels.

I agree, however, Tampa and the Rams have yet to even win a game both losing 6 in a row. Part of me wants to put that on the coaching reguardless of the lack of talent.

Still I have not got a chance to watch any of their games though, so i cant say that they havnt been playing with more heart then their records show.

bowtown
10-21-2009, 08:07 AM
I agree, however, Tampa and the Rams have yet to even win a game both losing 6 in a row. Part of me wants to put that on the coaching reguardless of the lack of talent.

Still I have not got a chance to watch any of their games though, so i cant say that they havnt been playing with more heart then their records show.

Morris also does get a strike for hiring Jim Bates as his defensive coordinator. That's going about as well down there as it did here.

Hulamau
10-21-2009, 08:07 AM
So often a guy who is so good as a coordinator cant make it as a HC .. at least not the first time around. Josh had that special something extra all along that excited me from day one.

His handling of the whole Jay Cutler thing only confirmed that and his deep knowledge, passion and attention to detail were all big Waving Flags that he was very likely going be a good one.

I admit I dreamed of a 6-0 start a few times, and how great that would be just to shut up the critics... but never imagined it would happen. My sense was a 10-6, 11-5 record was possible with a little luck though 8-8 or even 6-10waspossible too with this schedule and all the changes.

Lot of fun seeing all the crow sandwiches being choked on around the league :-)

Looks like we found a four leaf clover after all! For many years to come thats the best part!

Cant wait to see how Kyle and the O does after a full second offseason in this system! With Kyle playing so well now he is only going to get much better with time and familiarity. I mean come on ... 6 games and NO real INTs!!

LRtagger
10-21-2009, 08:08 AM
Not really a fair assessment yet. Both those guys walked into a lot less talent than McDaniels.

Right but Josh McDaniels downgraded at our most talented position and didnt upgrade our positions of need. :hitself:

Drek
10-21-2009, 08:09 AM
Spag will most likely be gone, and the same with Morris after two seasons. They aren't good at it right now, and who knows if they'll actually get any better. Rex Ryan's team is decent, but their offense is terrible.

Spags will be in St. Louis for a while before they look to make a change, assuming new ownership doesn't change directions massively (and if Dave Checkitts buys the team they probably won't).

The Rams biggest problem right now is the talent they do have is just too young and inexperienced to be difference makers. Billy Devaney is basically applying a "under 30" rule where they won't bring in any new players who're 30 or older. They've gone full on youth movement.

Smith should at worst be a solid LT in this league. Chris Long and Adam Carriker are great fits for Spags' attacking front four. James Laurinaitis is looking like a beast. Stephen Jackson is still a very good back.

They just need another season or two for those guys to mature and to add another layer or two of drafted talent, then they can make a couple key FA signings and be a very solid team again.

MVP-06
10-21-2009, 08:15 AM
Not really a fair assessment yet. Both those guys walked into a lot less talent than McDaniels.

not sure I agree, he replaced about half of the existing "talent" with his own guys. Besides Dre Bly im not sure any of the guys he let go are playing

cutthemdown
10-21-2009, 08:19 AM
I don't like defensive head coaches. I know I know a lot of them have won but I still prefer the offensive mastermind type head coach.

bronco militia
10-21-2009, 08:21 AM
it's fair question to ask.........most us did not want McDaniels because he was coming from the Pats and an offenseive coordinator. The biggest problem with the Broncos was the defense.


honestly, I think most were pissed becasue he was a Patriot ;D

cutthemdown
10-21-2009, 08:24 AM
it's fair question to ask.........most us did not want McDaniels because he was coming from the Pats and an offenseive coordinator. The biggest problem with the Broncos was the defense.


honestly, I think most were pissed becasue he was a Patriot ;D

There were quite a few us clamoring for Mcdaniels from the start. Maybe there was some who said they didn't like him as a choice but really it didn't go sour until the Cutler thing.

SonOfLe-loLang
10-21-2009, 08:28 AM
There were quite a few us clamoring for Mcdaniels from the start. Maybe there was some who said they didn't like him as a choice but really it didn't go sour until the Cutler thing.

Yeah, i was pleased with the McD hiring from go. The man created perfected an offense for a team that was one fluke play (the tyree catch) from a 19-0 season.

bronco militia
10-21-2009, 08:28 AM
There were quite a few us clamoring for Mcdaniels from the start. Maybe there was some who said they didn't like him as a choice but really it didn't go sour until the Cutler thing.


that's a good point....I was intrigued with the hire until the ****ler fiasco

Rabb
10-21-2009, 08:34 AM
here is why I know we made the right choice

in one off season, McDaniels took last year's team that was decent to real good in areas and bad in some and broke it down regardless of who was doing what

he got the players he wanted in FA and the draft, let the players go he didn't want including one that caused a little bit of a stir and implemented some new coaches to help him

they not only changed the entire defensive scheme and a lot of the personnell but also changed the way they run their offense entirely including the run blocking schemes

throw in the special teams not giving games away, and we have a complete 3 phase team in one off season

I don't think it is even close, the other 2 guys would have stuck with the status quo more than likely on offense and possibly improved the defense but I cannot imagine to this degree

McDaniels made the ballsy moves necessary to get it done, that is such a lottery odds thing for us to luck into with getting this guy, I don't think there is a comparison

bowtown
10-21-2009, 08:45 AM
not sure I agree, he replaced about half of the existing "talent" with his own guys. Besides Dre Bly im not sure any of the guys he let go are playing

But look at who some of the real stand-outs on this team have been this year: Doom, Champ, DJ, Marshall, Royal, the entire O Line. They were all holdovers. Now McDaniels gets a lot of credit for filling in the gaps with his guys and getting them all to shine within his system, but look at that list and tell me how many guys St. Louis or TB have with similar talent. Steven Jackson, Ronde Barber, who else?

skpac1001
10-21-2009, 09:15 AM
When Shanny got fired I was lobbying for Spagnuolo over McDaniels because obviously defense is our problem and hiring McDaniels and switching to the 3-4 will just make things worse. Plus, McDaniels offensive genius was overrated based on a record setting year with a superstar cast just like Billick's offensive genius was before. Being completely wrong never felt so good.

BMarsh615
10-21-2009, 09:19 AM
I wanted Spags... I was a moron.:)

Peoples Champ
10-21-2009, 09:21 AM
Not really a fair assessment yet. Both those guys walked into a lot less talent than McDaniels.


However, McDaniels came in and cleaned shop. Those guys didnt. I mean he changed QB which is the biggest change on a team. Spags or Raheem didnt do any of that. And I forgot, 8 new starters on D.

tsiguy96
10-21-2009, 09:24 AM
seriously, give mcdaniels some credit for starting like 10 new guys on the entire team. 8 new d starters, RB, WR (sometimes gaffney in starting WR3). these other guys had the opportunity to sign players to help them win but they didnt, mcdaniels did, and hes a winner because of his smart, cost effective signings for team football players.

broncs2bowl
10-21-2009, 09:28 AM
I wanted Spags and got so pissed when we got McD hahaha. I <3 McD now

DenverBrit
10-21-2009, 09:32 AM
Would Spags have brought in Nolan, Nunnely etc?

McDaniels has already shown he's special and understand how to be a HC.

Denver's D was terrible last year and has made an amazing turn around....has Spags pulled of anything similar for the Rams??

It's a no-contest. It's McD!! He's created a McTeam!!

bowtown
10-21-2009, 09:36 AM
However, McDaniels came in and cleaned shop. Those guys didnt. I mean he changed QB which is the biggest change on a team. Spags or Raheem didnt do any of that. And I forgot, 8 new starters on D.

Again, see my post above, McDaniels had far more talent in the holdovers he kept than Morris or Spags could have ever dreamed.

I'm really not trying to take anything away from McDaniels, but I just don't see how people can objectively say that he didn't walk in to a far more talented team (at least on offense) than either of the other two. I think McDaniels has done amazing work here, but I don't think we can really make any good assessments of the other 2 until they've had a couple of years to build from the total ruins they were handed. Same goes for Haley and Pioli.

tsiguy96
10-21-2009, 09:40 AM
Again, see my post above, McDaniels had far more talent in the holdovers he kept than Morris or Spags could have ever dreamed.

I'm really not trying to take anything away from McDaniels, but I just don't see how people can objectively say that he didn't walk in to a far more talented team (at least on offense) than either of the other two. I think McDaniels has done amazing work here, but I don't think we can really make any good assessments of the other 2 until they've had a couple of years to build from the total ruins they were handed. Same goes for Haley and Pioli.

he had a more talented offense and an absolute disaster of a defense. he signed 8 new defensive starters and turned it into #1 in the league, why could those guys not go sign starters for offense and do something similar? because they arent as good of coaches and dont have the ability to do so, as well as not hiring a good support staff either? why are they not being held accountable for the actions on the field?

bowtown
10-21-2009, 09:46 AM
he had a more talented offense and an absolute disaster of a defense. he signed 8 new defensive starters and turned it into #1 in the league, why could those guys not go sign starters for offense and do something similar? because they arent as good of coaches and dont have the ability to do so, as well as not hiring a good support staff either? why are they not being held accountable for the actions on the field?

Dude, they didn't have any defense either. Those teams are totally decimated. Please show me who they have that is the same calibur of Champ, DJ, Doom, Marshall, Royal, and most importantly the ENTIRE O-Line. Our Oline plays such a large roll in the success of this team and it was already in place along with one of the the best oline coaches and the the best running back coach from day one. You are out of your mind if you think any of those other coaches had anywhere close to that luxury.

Rabb
10-21-2009, 09:50 AM
so by that logic, McDaniels isn't the clear right choice because he had better talent to work with

got it

give me a ****ing break with that, this is the NFL and they are all NFL caliber athletes...McD got a few guys that have been labeled as nothing more than cast offs also, I guess his coaching has nothing to do with them proving otherwise does it

Hercules Rockefeller
10-21-2009, 09:52 AM
So Denver had more talent than the Rams, does anyone think this team is undefeated with Spags as the HC? That's the real question.

I guessed right with what would happen, rookie offensive HC with a former HC as his defensive coordinator.

bowtown
10-21-2009, 09:55 AM
so by that logic, McDaniels isn't the clear right choice because he had better talent to work with

got it

give me a ****ing break with that, this is the NFL and they are all NFL caliber athletes...McD got a few guys that have been labeled as nothing more than cast offs also, I guess his coaching has nothing to do with them proving otherwise does it

Please show me where the hell I said our success has nothing to do with this coaching. I've been nothing but effusive in my praise of McDaniels, his coaching and the other coaches he brought in. All I'm saying is that it's WAY too early to know whether Morris, Spags or Haley are going to be successful or not, because they were handed much worse situations than McDaniels was handed here. They should and will be given more time to build their teams and prove their worth.

People are so damn defensive around here, simply implying that McDaniels didn't build this entire team from the ground up is apparently the same as saying he's the worst coach in the world.

Peoples Champ
10-21-2009, 09:56 AM
Again, see my post above, McDaniels had far more talent in the holdovers he kept than Morris or Spags could have ever dreamed.

I'm really not trying to take anything away from McDaniels, but I just don't see how people can objectively say that he didn't walk in to a far more talented team (at least on offense) than either of the other two. I think McDaniels has done amazing work here, but I don't think we can really make any good assessments of the other 2 until they've had a couple of years to build from the total ruins they were handed. Same goes for Haley and Pioli.


You are right, McDaniels had a more talented team. He still wasnt satisfied, he got rid of waste on the team, and turned a 32nd ranked D into a 1st ranked D.

The other 2 coaches had less talent, yet somehow were satisfied with it, and just tried to make due with what they had. They had a 31st ranked D, and turned it into a 32st ranked D, and they are Defensive coaches.

Your arguement that the Rams / Bucs had less talent is making it even worse for those coaches, because it makes it look like they mad no effort to get better talent.

bowtown
10-21-2009, 10:02 AM
You are right, McDaniels had a more talented team. He still wasnt satisfied, he got rid of waste on the team, and turned a 32nd ranked D into a 1st ranked D.

The other 2 coaches had less talent, yet somehow were satisfied with it, and just tried to make due with what they had. They had a 31st ranked D, and turned it into a 32st ranked D, and they are Defensive coaches.

Your arguement that the Rams / Bucs had less talent is making it even worse for those coaches, because it makes it look like they mad no effort to get better talent.

Sometimes you have to move backwards to go forwards. Not all situations are equal. They picked up some good young talent and have begun to build. They have a steeper climb. So many people around here--including me-- were warning that McDaniels might not succeed at first but would need to be given time to implement his vision and system. It's a testament to him, Nolan, and to Shanahan (gasp) that he was able to get it to work so quickly. I just happen to think that those other three should be granted the same leeway.

Rabb
10-21-2009, 10:02 AM
Please show me where the hell I said our success has nothing to do with this coaching. I've been nothing but effusive in my praise of McDaniels, his coaching and the other coaches he brought in. All I'm saying is that it's WAY too early to know whether Morris, Spags or Haley are going to be successful or not, because they were handed much worse situations than McDaniels was handed here. They should and will be given more time to build their teams and prove their worth.

People are so damn defensive around here, simply implying that McDaniels didn't build this entire team from the ground up is apparently the same as saying he's the worst coach in the world.

I am saying that I believe if you stuck either of the other two coaches in the exact same scenario here, we are not 6-0 right now...I think McD has made some gutsy and sometimes unpopular decisions which are proving to be good ones

the whole "they have less talent" thing is just not necessarily true, they have as much access to the free agent market as we did, they have room to work in the draft like we did and they could have released whoever they wanted to just like we did, they could make trades for people they really want if they wanted to

I won't make you a martyr though, keep misreading my posts if you like

Peoples Champ
10-21-2009, 10:08 AM
Sometimes you have to move backwards to go forwards. Not all situations are equal. They picked up some good young talent and have begun to build. They have a steeper climb. So many people around here--including me-- were warning that McDaniels might not succeed at first but would need to be given time to implement his vision and system. It's a testament to him, Nolan, and to Shanahan (gasp) that he was able to get it to work so quickly. I just happen to think that those other three should be granted the same leeway.


Ya , your right, I guess you can build through the draft, which takes longer then free agency. We will just wait to see if their draft picks pan out. Not everyone can find studs like Alphonso Smith and Knowshon Moreno and Ayers with immediate impact. Rams 1st pick was a OL and he is hurt, so I will give you a break on that.

mnfan
10-21-2009, 10:10 AM
To me the most impressive thing that McDaniels did was to hire Nolan. A guy with not only more experience, but more head coaching experience. A less man, and coach, would have felt threatened. He didn't and brought him in, most likely, as not only a good coordinator, but someone he could lean on as well. If Nolan is gone next year, I think it will be a significant step back for the organization.

Traveler
10-21-2009, 10:10 AM
I originally wanted Spags or Morris. Like many of us believed, the defense was so crappy, logic dictated that Bowlen should select a defensive minded coach.

Bowlen went against that logic and hired the guy who he thought could best right our sinking ship.

Great hire Mr. Bowlen!:thumbs:

bowtown
10-21-2009, 10:10 AM
I am saying that I believe if you stuck either of the other two coaches in the exact same scenario here, we are not 6-0 right now...I think McD has made some gutsy and sometimes unpopular decisions which are proving to be good ones

the whole "they have less talent" thing is just not necessarily true, they have as much access to the free agent market as we did, they have room to work in the draft like we did and they could have released whoever they wanted to just like we did, they could make trades for people they really want if they wanted to

I won't make you a martyr though, keep misreading my posts if you like

Let me try to put it this way, even if they had made the exact same moves that we made in free agency, I don't think those teams would be performing anywhere close to as well as us, and I'm not sure they would even have better records than they have now.

Now, McDaniels should get a lot of credit for that, but it doesn't change the fact that the people he chose to keep are far superior to most anyone those other three teams already had on their roster. You can only chage so much in one offseasn. We ddin't have as much to change. That's all I'm saying.

Rabb
10-21-2009, 10:21 AM
Let me try to put it this way, even if they had made the exact same moves that we made in free agency, I don't think those teams would be performing anywhere close to as well as us, and I'm not sure they would even have better records than they have now.

Now, McDaniels should get a lot of credit for that, but it doesn't change the fact that the people he chose to keep are far superior to most anyone those other three teams already had on their roster. You can only chage so much in one offseasn. We ddin't have as much to change. That's all I'm saying.

I cannot disagree with that, other than I think we did have a lot of change to make...maybe not all with personnel but attitude

I see what you are saying though for sure, and can't disagree totally...it just feels like those guys did very little to even attempt a positive change you know?

Crushaholic
10-21-2009, 10:25 AM
Not a contest! Not only is Josh the best rookie coach this year he is the best in recent memory. The guy was cursed by being a Belicheck disciple, all the others have crashed and burned by Josh decided he was going to be his own man and It's working for him! You remember when Reagan broke the 20 yrs assassination curse? Josh is Ronald Reagan! :rofl:

Mike Tomlin may disagree with your assessment...

azbroncfan
10-21-2009, 10:41 AM
Mike Tomlin may disagree with your assessment...

Tomlin didn't do a complete scheme on both sides of the ball and coaching changes. Dick Lebeau is a big influence in Pitt and already had the top Defense there. Josh McD is the only BB disciple that BB has had much good things to say about. I think Tomlin is a good football coach but I think MCD is the best young HC I have seen in awhile. He is wise beyond his years.

lex
10-21-2009, 10:59 AM
I think Spags could have been successful in Denver, so Im not going to cast him aside and make false comparisons. But on the other hand, as opposed to "could have been successful in Denver" McDaniels actually has taken a lot of young talent and ran with it...and a bird in the band is worth more than one in the bush. Gotta give McDaniels credit.

skpac1001
10-21-2009, 11:00 AM
Tomlin didn't do a complete scheme on both sides of the ball and coaching changes. Dick Lebeau is a big influence in Pitt and already had the top Defense there. Josh McD is the only BB disciple that BB has had much good things to say about. I think Tomlin is a good football coach but I think MCD is the best young HC I have seen in awhile. He is wise beyond his years.

I agree, don't want to take anything away from Tomlin, but the Steelers won the superbowl just a few years before, and the Tomlin's superbowl winning team was basically the same team as the previous one.

lex
10-21-2009, 11:04 AM
Tomlin didn't do a complete scheme on both sides of the ball and coaching changes. Dick Lebeau is a big influence in Pitt and already had the top Defense there. Josh McD is the only BB disciple that BB has had much good things to say about. I think Tomlin is a good football coach but I think MCD is the best young HC I have seen in awhile. He is wise beyond his years.


Ill be honest. Im still not convinced we wouldnt have been better staying with the previous offensive system. I think McDaniels could have learned it and had success by virtue of being a good play caller. But having said that, I was getting really tired of Shanahan not maximizing the offensive system by relying on scrub RBs. And its also not like Shanahan was really calling plays past the first 15. So its somewhat of a wash. All in all, Ive been annoyed with the lack of balance and at least we have that now.

Mr. Elway
10-21-2009, 11:17 AM
To me it's pretty simple: Only one of the three teams in question is better than last year, plays greater than the sum of it's parts, and has found a way to defeat supposedly better teams.

McDaniels runs away with it so far, no question.

HEAV
10-21-2009, 12:09 PM
I like many on here wanted Spags and was thinking you leave the offense to Bates.

But after the hire of McDaniels I could see that thinking was flawed. Needed one person in charge of the team not two heads. Just look at Dallas for example. Wade runs the Defense and Garrett the offense. What's been their results?

Hiring Spags and keeping Bates just would have been catering to Cutler and letting the inmate run the prison and at the end of the day that's not a team.

Josh brought TEAM to Denver, from coaches to players. We are a TEAM once again.

Kaylore
10-21-2009, 12:11 PM
Not really a fair assessment yet. Both those guys walked into a lot less talent than McDaniels.

BS. Our defense was garbage across the board. McDaniels rebuilt the entire defense with castoffs from other teams. There are three starters from last year and the defense is dominant and become what we hang our hats on.

Spags was supposed to be this defensive genius and they are two spots worse than they were last year. I agree it's early, but just saying for a guy that everyone wanted and was sure to "fix" things it sure must be embarrassing to see and offensive guy put together a defense that goes from 29th to 1st and you go from 28th to 30th. It's not like McDaniels took over the Giants defense we he got here.

Peoples Champ
10-21-2009, 12:18 PM
BS. Our defense was garbage across the board. McDaniels rebuilt the entire defense with castoffs from other teams. There are three starters from last year and the defense is dominant and become what we hang our hats on.

Spags was supposed to be this defensive genius and they are two spots worse than they were last year. I agree it's early, but just saying for a guy that everyone wanted and was sure to "fix" things it sure must be embarrassing to see and offensive guy put together a defense that goes from 29th to 1st and you go from 28th to 30th. It's not like McDaniels took over the Giants defense we he got here.

I said the same thing, but he said Spags is "rebuilding slower"

TDmvp
11-25-2010, 02:06 PM
Rams are 0-6, remember when we wanted this guy? I cant say that i have watched a single Rams game yet this season, so i cant really judge, however, they may end up winless this season.

I know its only week 7 in the NFL, but i mean did we get the better end of the stick or what? Ha.

Well then theres Rex Ryan, 3-3 Jets, ill give him some credit even though the jets are looking at a downward spiral.

How about Raheem Morris in Tampa?

I know Denver was the premier position in the offseason and we probably got first choice from the available candidates. I know its week 7, but from the looks of it we picked the right guy in Mcdaniels.


http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100604231440/callofduty/images/4/48/Bump.gif
Hilarious!Hilarious!Hilarious!Hilarious!

go_broncos
11-25-2010, 02:12 PM
http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100604231440/callofduty/images/4/48/Bump.gif
Hilarious!Hilarious!Hilarious!Hilarious!

Good one..Just like Mcd, their lovers thought they won SB after 6-0 start.

NFLBRONCO
11-25-2010, 02:12 PM
it's fair question to ask.........most us did not want McDaniels because he was coming from the Pats and an offenseive coordinator. The biggest problem with the Broncos was the defense.


honestly, I think most were/are pissed becasue he was a Patriot ;D

fixed it

go_broncos
11-25-2010, 02:14 PM
I wanted Spags... I was a moron.:)

you are not..

Popps
11-25-2010, 02:17 PM
For the record.. the Rams have won 5 games this year and last year combined.

I'm sure the patient fans around this board would have been just fine with that.

Spag - 5 - 20

McD - 11-15

I'd say the jury is still out on both of these coaches.

TDmvp
11-25-2010, 02:21 PM
Still wish we would have picked anyone else over Josh.
Our D had been weak for a while and had hopes for a great D head coach to fix it.
Every coach taken that year I think was D 1st coaches or at least came from that side of the ball and what do we do take the OQ from a finesse team.

Who comes in , blows up the team and then uses most our good picks on O and not even smart O picks but crap like hb's and wr's ... glamor picks instead of smart picks.

Meanwhile all the other coaches taken that year is now set at QB with D's that are coming on while we bast in the poo that is Josh Mishandels ...

Popps
11-25-2010, 02:33 PM
Still wish we would have picked anyone else over Josh.


Yea, I think we've all sort of picked up on that after the 10,000th post you made about it.

Our D had been weak for a while and had hopes for a great D head coach to fix it.

I too wanted a defensive-minded coach. However, the last offensive-minded coach Bowlen brought in did O.K. for himself.


Who comes in , blows up the team and then uses most our good picks on O and not even smart O picks but crap like hb's and wr's ... glamor picks instead of smart picks.
.

I love how this argument completely ignores free agency, as if it just doesn't exist.

We also took what looks to be our next big impact defensive player in the first round of the draft.

Beyond that, we were extremely active in free agency, choosing to rebuild the defense via what looked to be some good options. Dawkins was a great addition.. and we made immediate upgrades in the secondary. The defense improved as a whole last season. You can check any defensive category to prove that. This year, we're playing short-handed, so it's not a surprise that we've had problems.

As for the "trash" we brought in on offense... we were due to revamp the offensive line with younger players more suited to the scheme our staff wanted to run. Moreno hasn't been a superstar, but he looks to be plenty capable of helping move this offense when the blocking is there. Tebow is a wild-card and most fans are extremely energized by that pick.

Brandon Marshall wanted to be the highest paid receiver in football and was one ****-up away from a major suspension. So, we wisely traded him for two high picks, and used one lower first rounder for his future replacement.
Are you going to be complaining about the "glamor pick" when Thomas is hauling in touchdowns for us in the future?

You're telling half-truths and omitting key data to sell your story, and bumping threads in attempt to give props to coach you wanted... who has a worse record than the one we have.


Again, I'm not saying McDaniels is or isn't the answer. I personally think he'll eventually be a great coach, but I'm not sure how long that will take.

What I do know is... you're story omits any data that helps tell the REAL story.

TDmvp
11-25-2010, 02:43 PM
Yea, I think we've all sort of picked up on that after the 10,000th post you made about it.


Considering I only have 5k in post and about never started a thread about Josh I see how you would just lump me right in with the rest of the knee jerk posters because it fits your agenda Popps...

So basically no one can have a opinion that is the least bit negative or differs from all you team Josh guys right ?


I mean hell it's basically this places MO now , someone says something you disagree with or don't like , call them Dramalama or Spider or whoever and pat yourselves on the back because you are better fans then them.

$hit I will go on the record and say I'm a better Broncos fan than 90% here because I'm a Broncos fan outa choice , not birth , not having a family that loved the Broncos and not being born there , outa choice ...



But yea Popps this makes like maybe the 50th post about Josh I've made in 2 years , but sure I'm just posting 10k worth of Josh threads...

Get over yourself ....

oubronco
11-25-2010, 03:01 PM
For the record.. the Rams have won 5 games this year and last year combined.

I'm sure the patient fans around this board would have been just fine with that.

Spag - 5 - 20

McD - 11-15

I'd say the jury is still out on both of these coaches.

You are right in that regard but the difference I see is the Rams are getting better and better and I can't really say that about Denver. I know injuries have taken their toll and continuity along the O-line isn't what it should be but it just seems that they are regressing in all 3 phases and the talent isn't what they thought it would be. Now I am in the boat that McD needs more time to totally get his roster the way he needs but with the witch hunt that's happening will he get it?

Popps
11-25-2010, 03:21 PM
You are right in that regard but the difference I see is the Rams are getting better and better

I guess it's tough not to improve from winning ONE game in a season.

The Rams have won 4 games this year, mostly on the back of having a #1 draft pick at QB.
EDIT: They also get after the QB. Something we haven't been able to do with our best two PR's out.

They are 5-20 in the past two seasons.

They're better, but that wouldn't have taken much.

I know injuries have taken their toll and continuity along the O-line isn't what it should be

We're starting two rookies and our starting RT hasn't been healthy most of the season. There's no possible way we could have expected great things from this line thus far. I'm hopeful that they're improving, but it's a week by week thing.

Now I am in the boat that McD needs more time to totally get his roster the way he needs but with the witch hunt that's happening will he get it?

I think he will.

With a looming labor situation and McDaniels being under contract, it just makes no sense to pull the plug this early. Josh will either see his plan come together by late next season, or he won't. If not, then we may see a new coach... provided real improvement hasn't been seen.

So, to me.... you're looking at at least one more year of struggling and rebuilding, either way.

Hence, Bowlen is going to show patience. As a recent article pointed out, Bowlen didn't hire Josh for an immediate Superbowl. He hired him for a long-term, systemic rebuild of the franchise. That kind of rebuild calls for a lot of patience and potentially some bumps along the way.


I mean, I get it... this season sucks. But, we're probably 2 wins under where I thought we would be at this point. We've shown flashes of what we're capable of and we've got some intriguing young players and an offense with some potential to explode.

I'm no McDaniels "lover," I simply want to give this staff a full and fair shot, and if it doesn't work... we'll move on and I'll root for the next guy.

I don't want to start playing musical coaches every other year and getting stuck in a state of constant limbo and rebuilding.

TDmvp
11-25-2010, 03:41 PM
You are right in that regard but the difference I see is the Rams are getting better and better and I can't really say that about Denver. I know injuries have taken their toll and continuity along the O-line isn't what it should be but it just seems that they are regressing in all 3 phases and the talent isn't what they thought it would be. Now I am in the boat that McD needs more time to totally get his roster the way he needs but with the witch hunt that's happening will he get it?



I've also said over and over you can't fire him yet because we don't have enough of a sample of Josh to make a fair decision.

But I can make a fair decision that I would of rather had most every other coach who got a job that off season.

The Tampa job was by far the worst job available that off season with the LEAST talent and now they look better than we do...


At the start of that off season you could make the case and I say with out a doubt we was the BEST job available with the most talent and Josh turned it into a total cluster suck.

And I say he gets to about the middle of the season next year , IF we open up next year 3-6 or some crap Dude is GONE if Pat doesn't wave the white flag before then to try to get someone he likes this off season.

Still not sure if we fired him who I would want to replace him so it sorta sucks to be me , best case would be since Tebow has grown on me even tho I HATED the pick is we start Tim , he blows up and saves Josh and the fan base warms up to him.

WolfpackGuy
11-25-2010, 03:47 PM
I wasn't necessarily calling for Spags, but a defensive minded coach who would leave the offense intact was what the team needed.

I say we compare the next Broncos coach to Spags as that guy will be inheriting a mess similar to the what the Rams were at the end of 2008.

Champagne Powder
11-25-2010, 04:03 PM
I'm no McDaniels "lover,"


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TDmvp
11-25-2010, 04:03 PM
I wasn't necessarily calling for Spags, but a defensive minded coach who would leave the offense intact was what the team needed.

I say we compare the next Broncos coach to Spags as that guy will be inheriting a mess similar to the what the Rams were at the end of 2008.



Yea Wolf , as much as we disagree on some things , like me being a shanny lover hehe , I totally agree if you are going to switch coaches at the point in time we did you FIX THE D and leave the O as much intact as possible just so you can move forward as strong as you can and not have as many pieces to fill.


Now we have way more questions then answerers.

And the D looks just as bad or worse and older.

go_broncos
11-25-2010, 04:17 PM
I guess it's tough not to improve from winning ONE game in a season.

The Rams have won 4 games this year, mostly on the back of having a #1 draft pick at QB.
EDIT: They also get after the QB. Something we haven't been able to do with our best two PR's out.

They are 5-20 in the past two seasons.

They're better, but that wouldn't have taken much.



We're starting two rookies and our starting RT hasn't been healthy most of the season. There's no possible way we could have expected great things from this line thus far. I'm hopeful that they're improving, but it's a week by week thing.



I think he will.

With a looming labor situation and McDaniels being under contract, it just makes no sense to pull the plug this early. Josh will either see his plan come together by late next season, or he won't. If not, then we may see a new coach... provided real improvement hasn't been seen.

So, to me.... you're looking at at least one more year of struggling and rebuilding, either way.

Hence, Bowlen is going to show patience. As a recent article pointed out, Bowlen didn't hire Josh for an immediate Superbowl. He hired him for a long-term, systemic rebuild of the franchise. That kind of rebuild calls for a lot of patience and potentially some bumps along the way.


I mean, I get it... this season sucks. But, we're probably 2 wins under where I thought we would be at this point. We've shown flashes of what we're capable of and we've got some intriguing young players and an offense with some potential to explode.

I'm no McDaniels "lover," I simply want to give this staff a full and fair shot, and if it doesn't work... we'll move on and I'll root for the next guy.
I don't want to start playing musical coaches every other year and getting stuck in a state of constant limbo and rebuilding.
you are an idiot and don't have a opinion of yourself.
you just support the coach blindly and doesn't question him even if he do ****ty job.

Popps
11-25-2010, 05:18 PM
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Yea, you're right Mr. 190 posts. The prior 30 years of my being a fan was solely all preparation for Josh McDaniels.

I'm just giving the guy what I consider to be a fair chance. If we move on and hire another coach, you'll find me here supporting him, too... not whining and bashing the team and hoping they fail to prove some kind of point.

TDmvp
11-25-2010, 05:21 PM
Yea, you're right Mr. 190 posts. The prior 30 years of my being a fan was solely all preparation for Josh McDaniels.

I'm just giving the guy what I consider to be a fair chance. If we move on and hire another coach, you'll find me here supporting him, too... not whining and bashing the team and hoping they fail to prove some kind of point.



I haven't seen many rooting for him to fail , I think it's been more like watching him fail and whining/complaining about it...


Josh's performance so far has sorta proved their point for them.

Popps
11-25-2010, 05:31 PM
I
Josh's performance so far has sorta proved their point for them.


11-15.

Not good, but not horrible after 1.5 years for a young coach.

(Better than 5-20, eh?)

His "performance" is better than Spagnulo's to this point.

So, I'm not sure what point has been "proven."


Can you even imagine the carnage around here if we had only won 5 games since the 2008 season? It's bad enough hovering a few games below .500.


People would be calling for the head of any coach not named Mike Shanahan... likely because they never agreed with the firing. Some folks simply aren't going to move on.

TDmvp
11-25-2010, 05:33 PM
I also Don't think you (Popps) are a moron for you takes on Josh and wanting to give him a chance . I don't think we have had a large enough sample to judge him on.

I do think you play the better fan guy card and come off like a douche when you go right to the acting like anyone who doubts Josh is in some way hating on the team and wanting them to fail and that they are LESS of a fan then you and pound your own chest and don't even get the facts right ...

You said I bumped this thread give props to coach you wanted... who has a worse record than the one we have.

Find me saying I wanted Steve ... never happened.


I bumped this thread after something that was said in another thread about how out of all the coaches taken that off season we might have got the worst one...

This thread talked about every coach taken that season so I picked it...

But really stop with the people are cheering for the Broncos to fail bit , It just comes off stupid.


But we don't actually disagree by much on this whole thing really...

TheReverend
11-25-2010, 05:35 PM
100 post rule

Requiem
11-25-2010, 05:36 PM
Josh McDaniels. I like the way he dresses on the sidelines. Beavis style.

TDmvp
11-25-2010, 05:37 PM
Josh McDaniels. I like the way he dresses on the sidelines. Beavis style.




This ones for Mock ...
http://img823.imageshack.us/img823/2505/cornholio.jpg

rbackfactory80
11-25-2010, 05:38 PM
I wanted Spagnolo mainly because I am more of a defensive guy but both guys aren't that impressive. Spags inherited a worse team and seems to at least have them going in the right direction. They play competitive ball most weeks, we don't.

Requiem
11-25-2010, 05:39 PM
Absolutely. Somewhere Mock is drinkin' beers and shootin' turkeys right this very instant. He even has Pharaoh Cat Gods by his side, even bigger and better than Beezer and the Free Range Kitties.

Popps
11-25-2010, 05:39 PM
I also Don't think you (Popps) are a moron for you takes on Josh and wanting to give him a chance . I don't think we have had a large enough sample to judge him on.
.

Agree. We probably will by the end of next season, provided we can stay fairly healthy.


I do think you play the better fan guy card and come off like a douche when you go right to the acting like anyone who doubts Josh is in some way hating on the team .

I haven't remotely said that people who doubt him aren't good fans. In fact, I've got my doubts about the guy... like any coach.

In fact, I've gone on record and named SPECIFIC posters who aren't fans of McDaniels that I think are still quality posters.

So, you're just working with a false premise.

My issue is with those who seem to revel in our failure, or only show up after losses. I mean, a troll is a troll.

Requiem
11-25-2010, 05:41 PM
Yeah, TDMVP.He is talking about the go_broncos, strafens and sctt_grds of the world. The Holy Anti-Broncos Triumvirate!

TDmvp
11-25-2010, 05:45 PM
Agree. We probably will by the end of next season, provided we can stay fairly healthy.



I haven't remotely said that people who doubt him aren't good fans.

In fact, I've gone on record and named SPECIFIC posters who aren't fans of McDaniels that I think are still quality posters.

So, you're just working with a false premise.

My issue is with those who seem to revel in our failure, or only show up after losses. I mean, a troll is a troll.


Haven't seen it , But I won't say you haven't ... and you don't need to dig it up and quote it , I actually believe you.


I just don't know If I buy everyone I have seen being destroyed by a lot of people here as a actual "Troll" ... I mean what do you expect people to do who our watching THEIR team in their eyes going down the drain do make happy post ? ...

Everything is a opinion tho ...

TDmvp
11-25-2010, 05:46 PM
Yeah, TDMVP.He is talking about the go_broncos, strafens and sctt_grds of the world. The Holy Anti-Broncos Triumvirate!

Hilarious! O ... Yea those guys suck @$$ Hilarious!Hilarious!Hilarious!

(just kidding go_broncos, strafens and sctt_grds)

go_broncos
11-25-2010, 06:50 PM
Yeah, TDMVP.He is talking about the go_broncos, strafens and sctt_grds of the world. The Holy Anti-Broncos Triumvirate!

**** you..

Requiem
11-25-2010, 07:04 PM
No thanks, if I wanted to get screwed by trailer trash, I'd slice my weenie open up with a bottle of Pasbt Blue Ribbon, not fall into your seductions.

go_broncos
11-25-2010, 07:10 PM
No thanks, if I wanted to get screwed by trailer trash, I'd slice my weenie open up with a bottle of Pasbt Blue Ribbon, not fall into your seductions.

Mcd and their lovers are thrash..Keep dreaming he is the answer..

Requiem
11-25-2010, 07:15 PM
Mcd and their lovers are thrash..Keep dreaming he is the answer..

I never said he was the answer, I just hope he can be.

I am pro-choice, but I am not willing to abort him one and a half years into his time as being coach.

There are a lot of things to be critical of him about, but I also believe there have been a lot of circumstances beyond his control that have led to the detriment of the team this year.

Popps
11-25-2010, 07:40 PM
I never said he was the answer, I just hope he can be.

I am pro-choice, but I am not willing to abort him one and a half years into his time as being coach.


I'm not sure why this is so hard for people to understand.

It's like... you're supposed to have utter hatred for the guy.... otherwise, you're a "lover."

How about just being a rational fan and letting things run their course a bit before completely panicking.

Requiem
11-25-2010, 07:45 PM
Because most people don't have the brains God allowed a goose. It is a lot easier to throw the blame in one area (in all aspects of live) rather than delving into issues critically and analyzing them holistically.

strafen
11-25-2010, 07:53 PM
I never said he was the answer, I just hope he can be.

I am pro-choice, but I am not willing to abort him one and a half years into his time as being coach.

There are a lot of things to be critical of him about, but I also believe there have been a lot of circumstances beyond his control that have led to the detriment of the team this year.Like what?

I think the correct statement is that, what has led to the detriment of the team this year, is directly connected to the moves McDaniels' made in players, draft, coaches, and FA related.

I doubt the lots of "ghostly" circumstances beyond his control you've mentioned, would even come close to being a differential in the matter

Requiem
11-25-2010, 07:56 PM
Yeah, you are probably right. Injuries to key players on our team haven't had a negative impact on our track to success at all.

That post was almost as non-sensical as your revisionist draft diatribe from a few nights ago. Kudos.

Taco John
11-25-2010, 08:09 PM
I'm not sure why this is so hard for people to understand.

It's like... you're supposed to have utter hatred for the guy.... otherwise, you're a "lover."

How about just being a rational fan and letting things run their course a bit before completely panicking.

There's nothing rational about wanting to keep Josh as a coach. Nothing at all. If we were sitting at .500 over the last 20 games, then there would be some rationalization. But our defense is giving up more points per game now than it has in the history of our franchise, and this after Josh said he was going to make this a priority. We've lost more games in the last 20 than the Tom Cable Oakland Raiders.

When the house is burning down around you, the rational thing to do is panic and find an exit, not sit on the couch and hope that things work out.

strafen
11-25-2010, 08:10 PM
Yeah, you are probably right. Injuries to key players on our team haven't had a negative impact on our track to success at all.

That post was almost as non-sensical as your revisionist draft diatribe from a few nights ago. Kudos.Injuries are part of the game you've gotta coach thru.
Indy has what I believe was 10 starters iinjured, and out of the line-up.
Other teams like the Pats, Chiefs, Raiders, Titans or any NFL team for that matter have key injuries everywhere. I think you could come up with something stronger than that, that convincingly supports your argument.

Look. We can't stop the run, stop the pass, stop teams from scoring high, and can't score ourselves on offense in proportion to the yards we gain.

We lack intensity, toughness, fire, inspiration and tenacity.
Those are important intangibles that could swing the odds on your favor, and are related to the job of the headcoach.

It's always been my opinion that a team adopts the identity of their headcoach...

Requiem
11-25-2010, 08:15 PM
Well, opinions are like assholios. We all got 'em, and some stink more than others!

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strafen
11-25-2010, 08:18 PM
Well, opinions are like assholios. We all got 'em, and some stink more than others!Nice. I was expecting better than that...

Requiem
11-25-2010, 08:27 PM
Nice. I was expecting better than that...

You didn't say anything worthy of responding to. I've seen your debating skills around here. They come with logical fallacies, poor spelling and if someone confronts you with a hard question (like I did in paragraph after paragraph) you get the Hell out of Dodge.

I have no doubts that our team would be much better with last years NFL leading pass rusher on the team, a healthy Ayers and a healthier secondary. We are attempting to get after the opposing teams with a journeyman free agent and average players on the outside. Hell, Haggan has been switching around all year. Our defense has been terrible, and perhaps Josh deserves some blame there, but I am not going to pin it all on him.

The intangibles you mention are also related to the players. We are still seeking an identity there. Honestly, do you think 1 and a 1/2 years is a long enough amount of time to get an identity set in place? I hardly believe so.

I don't expect to hit .500 this season, but the possibility still exists. If we get there, I would say things would be all right. If we tank the rest of the way out, it is extremely concerning.

HAT
11-25-2010, 08:37 PM
There's nothing rational about wanting to keep Josh as a coach. Nothing at all. If we were sitting at .500 over the last 20 games, then there would be some rationalization. .

And if they are sitting around .500 at the end of the season, what, you will suddenly change your stance? (Again?)

Can someone please explain to me why a certain record, over a certain amount of games, across an off-season, matters one bit?

If they win 5 or 6 games total than fine, all of this talk becomes legitimate. But the "last 20" games argument really is grasping at straws. If Denver wins 5 of 6 to close the season, starts 2011 6-0 but finishes 8-8 (ala 2009).....Not one person would give one **** that they had won 11 out of 12 at one point. So why all the worry about 5-15?

I've been asking this question all week but despite countless users quoting this 'stat', nobody has answered it.

strafen
11-25-2010, 08:46 PM
You didn't say anything worthy of responding to. I've seen your debating skills around here. They come with logical fallacies, poor spelling and if someone confronts you with a hard question (like I did in paragraph after paragraph) you get the Hell out of Dodge.

I have no doubts that our team would be much better with last years NFL leading pass rusher on the team, a healthy Ayers and a healthier secondary. We are attempting to get after the opposing teams with a journeyman free agent and average players on the outside. Hell, Haggan has been switching around all year. Our defense has been terrible, and perhaps Josh deserves some blame there, but I am not going to pin it all on him.

The intangibles you mention are also related to the players. We are still seeking an identity there. Honestly, do you think 1 and a 1/2 years is a long enough amount of time to get an identity set in place? I hardly believe so.

I don't expect to hit .500 this season, but the possibility still exists. If we get there, I would say things would be all right. If we tank the rest of the way out, it is extremely concerning.I know of your superiority as an internet poster champ. Congrats on that.
Insults aside...
The bottom line is that there's no improvement to talk of.
Excuses about injuries are part of the game, just like penalties are. You deal with them, and you coach thru them.
You cannot ignore all of the mistakes Mcdaniels has made and believe that injuries have really seem to be the culprit here.

PS: I consider myself a good speller. If you ever see a misspelled word, most likely was the result of a fat-fingered action, and NOT because I can't spell.
Thanks for the observation... ;)

Want to read about logical fallacies...
http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=95293

Popps
11-25-2010, 09:09 PM
If they win 5 or 6 games total than fine, all of this talk becomes legitimate. But the "last 20" games argument really is grasping at straws.

Yea, people love creating time-frames that suit their arguments... as long as you don't talk about the details of that time frame. (Like missing our two best pass rushers, missing our starting RB for most of it, developing two rookie O-linemen and missing our starting RT, and on and on.)

So, yea... we can omit information as it suits our arguments. You know that.

WolfpackGuy
11-25-2010, 09:14 PM
And if they are sitting around .500 at the end of the season, what, you will suddenly change your stance? (Again?)

Can someone please explain to me why a certain record, over a certain amount of games, across an off-season, matters one bit?

If they win 5 or 6 games total than fine, all of this talk becomes legitimate. But the "last 20" games argument really is grasping at straws. If Denver wins 5 of 6 to close the season, starts 2011 6-0 but finishes 8-8 (ala 2009).....Not one person would give one **** that they had won 11 out of 12 at one point. So why all the worry about 5-15?

I've been asking this question all week but despite countless users quoting this 'stat', nobody has answered it.

Ain't happening.

Possibly 2 more wins depending on San Diego's playoff situation in Week 17 in which case it could bump up to 3 if they're resting.

HAT
11-25-2010, 09:22 PM
Ain't happening.

Possibly 2 more wins depending on San Diego's playoff situation in Week 17 in which case it could bump up to 3 if they're resting.

Whether it happens or not isn't the point.....I would just like someone to explain to me why any record (good or bad) across an off season matter.

3-7 sucks, be as pissed as you want to be about it but 2009 was 2009, 2010 is 2010 and 2011 will be 2011.

Be pissed at 11-15 too if you want. But there is no such thing as 5-15.

WolfpackGuy
11-25-2010, 09:29 PM
Whether it happens or not isn't the point.....I would just like someone to explain to me why any record (good or bad) across an off season matter.

3-7 sucks, be as pissed as you want to be about it but 2009 was 2009, 2010 is 2010 and 2011 will be 2011.

Be pissed at 11-15 too if you want. But there is no such thing as 5-15.

It's basically the same team as far as the roster goes, so there is some correlation.

TDmvp
11-25-2010, 09:33 PM
Be pissed at 11-15 too if you want. But there is no such thing as 5-15.

Well it exists in this context ... No Broncos team in my life time has ever has a span of games as bad as 5-15.



Worst 20 game span for the Broncos since the early 70's.

HAT
11-25-2010, 10:05 PM
Well it exists in this context ... No Broncos team in my life time has ever has a span of games as bad as 5-15.
Worst 20 game span for the Broncos since the early 70's.

But why does that matter to you? Flip it around....Would you be all stoked about a 16-0 record if it happened like this: 8 losses, 8 wins, off-season, 8 wins, 8 losses? Of course not.

The losses suck, the inconsistency sucks, the way they've lost some of them sucks but at the end of the day....McD inherited a .500 team, and produced a .500 team in year 1 and nobody knows how year 2 will end up.

We all want progress and so far all we have seen is status quo.

The 20 game span is completely arbitrary. If you want to compare where Denver is under McD strictly on wins and losses than at least look at the full picture.....

Broncos under McD in his first 26 games: 11-15

Broncos under Shanny in his last 26 games: 12-14

Status Quo.

PS: Nice avy ^5

Miss I.
11-25-2010, 10:14 PM
There's nothing rational about wanting to keep Josh as a coach. Nothing at all. If we were sitting at .500 over the last 20 games, then there would be some rationalization. But our defense is giving up more points per game now than it has in the history of our franchise, and this after Josh said he was going to make this a priority. We've lost more games in the last 20 than the Tom Cable Oakland Raiders.

When the house is burning down around you, the rational thing to do is panic and find an exit, not sit on the couch and hope that things work out.

No offense TJ, but you do realize that panic is counterproductive to rational action? If you panic in a fire, you will be unable to find an exit and more than likely inflict more damage rather than improve the situation. When people panic, you get riots. When people panic, you get people trampling other people on their way to exit a burning building, shark infested waters etc. So in no way is PANIC a good rational choice for any situation, neither this football situation or an actual fire.

And by the way, while I love my Broncos, there is no correlation whatsoever in trying to survive a life ending, home destroying fire and surving a bad season of football.

As for this situation with our team, rational thought is not to cut and run midseason. The soonest Josh McDaniels should see the door is at the end of the season. Though to be honest I would not necessarily think this is the best course of action at this time. But if Bowlen wants to make a really well thought out plan to deal with this streak of spotty football that's occured under Josh the last 1.5 seasons, he needs to do a full analysis of all the problems currently afflicting the team and rationally determine actual cause and find the best corrective action that deals with both the short term issues and longer term systemic issues. And finally suspense dates on meeting the corrective measures should be established with follow up to see if actions were successful or not and take action again as necessary. One other note, this corrective action panel of people or whatever should be made up of people with actual insight into team building and be as neutral a panel as possible. Emotion should not be playing into a decision this critical.

houghtam
11-26-2010, 01:35 AM
Yea, people love creating time-frames that suit their arguments... as long as you don't talk about the details of that time frame. (Like missing our two best pass rushers, missing our starting RB for most of it, developing two rookie O-linemen and missing our starting RT, and on and on.)

So, yea... we can omit information as it suits our arguments. You know that.

Yeah, here's a time frame for ya. The 1998-99 Super Bowl Champion Broncos were 4-6 over a 10 game span stretching over two seasons. Terrible team, I tells ya. IT'S ALL SHANADUMMY'S FAULT!!!11!1one1!!1!

TheElusiveKyleOrton
11-26-2010, 06:26 AM
But why does that matter to you? Flip it around....Would you be all stoked about a 16-0 record if it happened like this: 8 losses, 8 wins, off-season, 8 wins, 8 losses? Of course not.

The losses suck, the inconsistency sucks, the way they've lost some of them sucks but at the end of the day....McD inherited a .500 team, and produced a .500 team in year 1 and nobody knows how year 2 will end up.

We all want progress and so far all we have seen is status quo.

The 20 game span is completely arbitrary. If you want to compare where Denver is under McD strictly on wins and losses than at least look at the full picture.....

Broncos under McD in his first 26 games: 11-15

Broncos under Shanny in his last 26 games: 12-14

Status Quo.

PS: Nice avy ^5

Perfectly stated.

jhns
11-26-2010, 06:34 AM
Yeah, you are probably right. Injuries to key players on our team haven't had a negative impact on our track to success at all.

That post was almost as non-sensical as your revisionist draft diatribe from a few nights ago. Kudos.

We had more injuries in 08, on the team everyone says had no talent. That team won 8 games...

Great excuse though. We have had a lot of those since McDaniels took over.

jhns
11-26-2010, 06:40 AM
But why does that matter to you? Flip it around....Would you be all stoked about a 16-0 record if it happened like this: 8 losses, 8 wins, off-season, 8 wins, 8 losses? Of course not.


Ummm, I can guarantee everyone would be sucking McD off if he had a 16 game winning stretch. Of course it would go away when we went 8-8 again. Just like some heat would be taken off of Josh if he won a lot more this season.

As of now, he has **** records no matter how you lay them out. The only good time he has had here were his first 6 games. He finished 8-8 with the healthiest roster in the league. We see how his team handles adversity. They go from average to ****.

go_broncos
11-26-2010, 06:47 AM
I never thought people can be this dumb..They still think Mcd is the answer.
I don't like his play calling. Moreno was running well in first half.What did he do..Just throw the ball to WR's..
He will never have success with his scheme.
To protect himself..he hired assistants that don't know ****.

I don't see any positive..He got player's that keep making mental mistakes.
Once other team is up..we seem to be quit.We are soft and there is nothing positive about this team.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
11-26-2010, 07:00 AM
I never thought people can be this dumb..

Your idiocy, wrapped up in a single sentence.

zdoor
11-26-2010, 07:06 AM
Yeah, you are probably right. Injuries to key players on our team haven't had a negative impact on our track to success at all.

That post was almost as non-sensical as your revisionist draft diatribe from a few nights ago. Kudos.

Well it's not like our team at full strength wouldn't have been a better match for that SD team we faced last week, that was, you know, untouched by the injury bug... OH Wait....

Broncos_OTM
11-26-2010, 08:34 AM
Yea, I think we've all sort of picked up on that after the 10,000th post you made about it.


I too wanted a defensive-minded coach. However, the last offensive-minded coach Bowlen brought in did O.K. for himself.



I love how this argument completely ignores free agency, as if it just doesn't exist.

We also took what looks to be our next big impact defensive player in the first round of the draft.

Beyond that, we were extremely active in free agency, choosing to rebuild the defense via what looked to be some good options. Dawkins was a great addition.. and we made immediate upgrades in the secondary. The defense improved as a whole last season. You can check any defensive category to prove that. This year, we're playing short-handed, so it's not a surprise that we've had problems.

As for the "trash" we brought in on offense... we were due to revamp the offensive line with younger players more suited to the scheme our staff wanted to run. Moreno hasn't been a superstar, but he looks to be plenty capable of helping move this offense when the blocking is there. Tebow is a wild-card and most fans are extremely energized by that pick.

Brandon Marshall wanted to be the highest paid receiver in football and was one ****-up away from a major suspension. So, we wisely traded him for two high picks, and used one lower first rounder for his future replacement.
Are you going to be complaining about the "glamor pick" when Thomas is hauling in touchdowns for us in the future?

You're telling half-truths and omitting key data to sell your story, and bumping threads in attempt to give props to coach you wanted... who has a worse record than the one we have.


Again, I'm not saying McDaniels is or isn't the answer. I personally think he'll eventually be a great coach, but I'm not sure how long that will take.

What I do know is... you're story omits any data that helps tell the REAL story.

DT has yet to make a differance on this team and i dont think he is going to do so in the future.He has shaky hands at best. This is going to be another one of those we could have had Ed Reed discussions

misturanderson
11-26-2010, 09:37 AM
DT has yet to make a differance on this team and i dont think he is going to do so in the future.He has shaky hands at best. This is going to be another one of those we could have had Ed Reed discussions
Considering who he has to out-compete and the fact that he has been injured, I would say that he has contributed decent amount. Look at Marshall's first year here if you want to see a rookie WR that didn't contribute much. Demaryius has contributed as much as Marshall did in 4 fewer games so far and with much better players above him.

I also don't see where you're getting this "shaky hands" talk, he's had at least as many really tough grabs as he has had drops. I remember maybe 1 that he could have caught and didn't that wouldn't have been an impressive catch had he made it.

If you're comparing him to Dez Bryant, don't bother because as much as that moron is talented and just now starting to help out his team, he is a constant distraction and this is just his first year. That guy is going to be a distraction on the level of TO, or Randy Moss when all is said and done. Demaryius is a model citizen so far and if his history is any indication it will stay that way.

Popps
11-26-2010, 09:42 AM
Considering who he has to out-compete and the fact that he has been injured, I would say that he has contributed decent amount. Look at Marshall's first year here if you want to see a rookie WR that didn't contribute much.

I also don't see where you're getting this "shaky hands" talk, he's had at least as many really tough grabs as he has had drops. I remember maybe 1 that he could have caught and didn't that wouldn't have been an impressive catch had he made it.

If you're comparing him to Dez Bryant, don't bother because as much as that moron is talented and just now starting to help out his team, he is a constant distraction and this is just his first year. Demaryius is a model citizen so far and if his history is any indication it will stay that way.

DT is all about staying on the field. The guy gets bumped up a lot. I hope this is just a bad phase for him, and not a true trend. I love the skill-set he's displaying out there. Until the total-team crap-job in San Diego, he's played well this year for a rookie.

Hope he can stay healthy.

misturanderson
11-26-2010, 09:44 AM
DT is all about staying on the field. The guy gets bumped up a lot. I hope this is just a bad phase for him, and not a true trend. I love the skill-set he's displaying out there. Until the total-team crap-job in San Diego, he's played well this year for a rookie.

Hope he can stay healthy.

I think it's all the more impressive what he's done considering that probably half of the passes he's had thrown his way have been WR screens that are 100% on him to turn into more than no gain.

Broncos_OTM
11-26-2010, 10:32 AM
I think as much power as MCD has had it is hard not to hold him accountable. Offensively speaking there are teams out there that dont have to run and they are succesful. Their are teams out there that have alot of injuries again succesful. As much as i like Kyle Orton he is not a franchise QB. He would be alot better with a stout defense and a complimentry run game. He is a decent QB i just dont think he has "IT". Defrensively again he has to be held accountable to some degreee. We do not have alot of starpower on D and what was once starpower is mediocre veterans. I think alot of our problems on D is that we are out schemed.

What it comes down to for me is. I wanted to give this guy two years. He has most of his pieces in place. And rather then getting stronger from year to year it looks as though we are on our way to becomeing the Browns, Lions and we had better finnish strong for me to not cry out for his head.

When we had shanny in town we won alot of games due to scheme. It doesnt seem this coaching staff can do the same thing.

Jason in LA
11-26-2010, 10:33 AM
This thread is a trip. I loved the 6-0 start, and I loved that I appeared to be wrong. But some folks were acting like McD was on his way to coaching greatness. How things have changed.

I was in favor of hiring Raheem Morris. After a year and a half, instead of six games, that looks like it would have been a much better choice. McD is simply not working out with the Broncos, and the bulk of the decisions have just been horrible.

But it is not as simple as dumping the guy after two years. The question is how long do the Broncos give him to turn this around? Is it a third year? Well, I wouldn't be upset to see him get fired at the end of this year, because the Broncos have never been this bad during my life time. But on the flip side, is this guy destined to be a loser? Or will he one day be a top notch head coach? So how long do the Broncos give him? I'd say one more year, but if he is fired after this year, don't let the door hit you on the way out.

I'm really getting the feeling that the Broncos are just a team that McD is getting his feet wet with, and then he's going to go somewhere else and be a good head coach when he's learned to get his head out his ass. That's an unsettling feeling. That the Broncos may just be a launching pad for McD, and some other team is going to cash in with a more mature McD, while the Broncos have to start over.

Yeah, should have hired Morris.

misturanderson
11-26-2010, 11:06 AM
This thread is a trip. I loved the 6-0 start, and I loved that I appeared to be wrong. But some folks were acting like McD was on his way to coaching greatness. How things have changed.

I was in favor of hiring Raheem Morris. After a year and a half, instead of six games, that looks like it would have been a much better choice. McD is simply not working out with the Broncos, and the bulk of the decisions have just been horrible.

But it is not as simple as dumping the guy after two years. The question is how long do the Broncos give him to turn this around? Is it a third year? Well, I wouldn't be upset to see him get fired at the end of this year, because the Broncos have never been this bad during my life time. But on the flip side, is this guy destined to be a loser? Or will he one day be a top notch head coach? So how long do the Broncos give him? I'd say one more year, but if he is fired after this year, don't let the door hit you on the way out.

I'm really getting the feeling that the Broncos are just a team that McD is getting his feet wet with, and then he's going to go somewhere else and be a good head coach when he's learned to get his head out his ass. That's an unsettling feeling. That the Broncos may just be a launching pad for McD, and some other team is going to cash in with a more mature McD, while the Broncos have to start over.

Yeah, should have hired Morris.

I think that if nothing else, this needs to be a learning experience for Bowlen. He needs to realize that having a coach with total control of personnel is not the way to run a franchise in today's NFL. It leads to too much favoritism with coaches and players, too much time spent worrying about things other than coaching and it makes for too much turnover when a coach needs to be replaced.

I absolutely believe that Josh's vision for the team is the right one, I also don't think that his player moves have been as bad as many on here claim. His coaching hires leave a lot to be desired and his staff has way too little experience for a first time HC. I would like to see him get one more year to correct some of his mistakes and to see what he can do with a healthier team (hopefully), but if he doesn't improve next year I will want him gone.

Broncos_OTM
11-26-2010, 11:20 AM
Considering who he has to out-compete and the fact that he has been injured, I would say that he has contributed decent amount. Look at Marshall's first year here if you want to see a rookie WR that didn't contribute much. Demaryius has contributed as much as Marshall did in 4 fewer games so far and with much better players above him.

I also don't see where you're getting this "shaky hands" talk, he's had at least as many really tough grabs as he has had drops. I remember maybe 1 that he could have caught and didn't that wouldn't have been an impressive catch had he made it.

If you're comparing him to Dez Bryant, don't bother because as much as that moron is talented and just now starting to help out his team, he is a constant distraction and this is just his first year. That guy is going to be a distraction on the level of TO, or Randy Moss when all is said and done. Demaryius is a model citizen so far and if his history is any indication it will stay that way.
I can see why he is not a starter yet. I realize what offense he came out of college.Ill give him his due he is still learning. and has made a few nice snags...However it is MY opinion there has been atleast 5-6 times this year where he should have cought the ball. Yes he has made some nice catches but he is not consistant enough for me...

Football outsiders has him catching 59 percent of his ball thrown his way..

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/wr

I am still looking for actual dropped pass numbers

misturanderson
11-26-2010, 11:23 AM
I think as much power as MCD has had it is hard not to hold him accountable. Offensively speaking there are teams out there that dont have to run and they are succesful. Their are teams out there that have alot of injuries again succesful. As much as i like Kyle Orton he is not a franchise QB.

That's really the Crux of it. If you have an absolutely elite QB, a Manning, Rivers, Brady, Brees or Rogers, you can win more games than we have with subpar talent elsewhere because those guys can will their team to victory. They still need a better supporting cast (see OL and defense) than Kyle has had this year to get to a superbowl, but those guys can at least stay competitive in situations that Orton cannot.

The injury non-excuse also doesn't take into account that while other teams have injuries, they also have depth that is multiple orders of magnitude higher than what we have. McDaniels inherited a team with no depth, none whatsoever. When you lose your bookend starters in the front 7 on defense AND both of your offensive tackles are hobbled/out due to injuries, you aren't going to have a good year unless you have incredible depth. The chargers and colts have been relatively healthy in the trenches specifically the OL, and their pass rushers, we have not. If our only injuries were to the defensive backfield, receivers and running backs, our team would look much better this year. I guarantee you.

I would be willing to bet that the colts would be having a year much closer to ours if Freeney was on IR and Mathis were out multiple games to go along with Charlie Johnson playing at 70-80% all year and Pollack and Diem both missing time and playing hurt.

They are also both significantly more talented teams than the Broncos and have been for 5+ years. That is why they have succeeded where we have failed.

I'm not saying that McDaniels isn't partly to blame, but you are not comparing even remotely similar situations to what he inherited or to which positions have been getting injured. The lack of perspective on this board is just ridiculous.

misturanderson
11-26-2010, 11:44 AM
I can see why he is not a starter yet. I realize what offense he came out of college.Ill give him his due he is still learning. and has made a few nice snags...However it is MY opinion there has been atleast 5-6 times this year where he should have cought the ball. Yes he has made some nice catches but he is not consistant enough for me...

Football outsiders has him catching 59 percent of his ball thrown his way..

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/wr

I am still looking for actual dropped pass numbers
59% catch rate isn't bad, it's about on par with many of the league's best WRs. It's better than Lloyd's 55% and I wouldn't say that Lloyd is dropping a lot of passes.

The guy is also a rookie. I just don't see any reason to complain about his season so far.

Broncos_OTM
11-26-2010, 11:47 AM
That's really the Crux of it. If you have an absolutely elite QB, a Manning, Rivers, Brady, Brees or Rogers, you can win more games than we have with subpar talent elsewhere because those guys can will their team to victory. They still need a better supporting cast (see OL and defense) than Kyle has had this year to get to a superbowl, but those guys can at least stay competitive in situations that Orton cannot..

Aggreed no doubt


The injury non-excuse also doesn't take into account that while other teams have injuries, they also have depth that is multiple orders of magnitude higher than what we have. McDaniels inherited a team with no depth, none whatsoever. When you lose your bookend starters in the front 7 on defense AND both of your offensive tackles are hobbled/out due to injuries, you aren't going to have a good year unless you have incredible depth. The chargers and colts have been relatively healthy in the trenches specifically the OL, and their pass rushers, we have not. If our only injuries were to the defensive backfield, receivers and running backs, our team would look much better this year.
..

He got rid of most of the players on this team it has been a total house cleaning. He has had two years to get the players in here he wanted. I think that is time sufficient to find players and depth needed to run start the change. The injury bug has killed us on Defense with out pressure i think it single handedly the biggest fail this year. However with good coaching you can take no bodies and succed. Jerome Harrison. cut how many times before he found his fit in pitts.

..[/QUOTE]



I would be willing to bet that the colts would be having a year much closer to ours if Freeney was on IR and Mathis were out multiple games to go along with Charlie Johnson playing at 70-80% all year and Pollack and Diem both missing time and playing hurt.

They are also both significantly more talented teams than the Broncos and have been for 5+ years. That is why they have succeeded where we have failed.

I'm not saying that McDaniels isn't partly to blame, but you are not comparing even remotely similar situations to what he inherited or to which positions have been getting injured. The lack of perspective on this board is just ridiculous.[/QUOTE]


Dude indy was working on there like seventh string wideouts. They are missing there number one and two RBs there defense is pretty attricious outside of all that and they are still winning. The colts are knwon for there passing game and theya re still getting it done.... hows that for perspective.

Broncos_OTM
11-26-2010, 11:51 AM
59% catch rate isn't bad, it's about on par with many of the league's best WRs. It's better than Lloyd's 55% and I wouldn't say that Lloyd is dropping a lot of passes.

The guy is also a rookie. I just don't see any reason to complain about his season so far.

Most if nto all Lloyds catches are deep throws. Looks at his YPC. Of course his drop rate or catch rate is going to be a little less especially with a qb like orton.

However DT has had most of his cahcnes coming in as a POSSESION reiever ... i think you would be better off compareing his numbers to more of the recievers in the leauge that are Possesion guys.

perspective huh... wheres yours at.

misturanderson
11-26-2010, 11:58 AM
Dude indy was working on there like seventh string wideouts. They are missing there number one and two RBs there defense is pretty attricious outside of all that and they are still winning. The colts are knwon for there passing game and theya re still getting it done.... hows that for perspective.

They are known for their passing game because of Peyton Manning. It doesn't matter who he's throwing to as long as he gets protection and they don't drop all of his passes. Injuries have taken a toll on their offense to some extent, but the most important pieces (OL and QB) are still in place.

Their defense isn't playing badly due to injuries because the injuries, once again, are not happening to the parts of the defense that make the difference in critical situations. They still have an entirely healthy compliment of pass rushers and their DTs haven't been injured. They have had some injuries to the LBs and Safety, but they have had time to build depth at those positions.

And to pretend that injuries haven't taken a toll on the colts is ridiculous. This is the same team that only lost 2 games last year because they chose to rest their starters. This year they have already doubled their loss total from last year and are sitting at 2nd place in their division.

misturanderson
11-26-2010, 11:59 AM
Most if nto all Lloyds catches are deep throws. Looks at his YPC. Of course his drop rate or catch rate is going to be a little less especially with a qb like orton.

However DT has had most of his cahcnes coming in as a POSSESION reiever ... i think you would be better off compareing his numbers to more of the recievers in the leauge that are Possesion guys.

perspective huh... wheres yours at.

Find me some drop numbers and we can talk about it. I'm still not convinced that Thomas is struggling with his catching.

If you want to make the point that we should have picked up Dan Williams or Ziggy Hood with that pick instead of Thomas, I'm all ears, but Thomas isn't performing badly for a rookie WR.

WolfpackGuy
11-26-2010, 12:06 PM
Find me some drop numbers and we can talk about it. I'm still not convinced that Thomas is struggling with his catching.

If you want to make the point that we should have picked up Dan Williams or Ziggy Hood with that pick instead of Thomas, I'm all ears, but Thomas isn't performing badly for a rookie WR.

I think Thomas will be okay as well, but I'd like to see them go downfield more with him though.

I'm not really enamored with that screen play they run so often with him.

The Tebow pick was what they should've used on Williams.

misturanderson
11-26-2010, 12:12 PM
I think Thomas will be okay as well, but I'd like to see them go downfield more with him though.

I'm not really enamored with that screen play they run so often with him.

The Tebow pick was what they should've used on Williams.

I just hope that Tebow turns out to be worthy of that pick. I can see why it was made, but I also see a team that could have used a ton of other players that were available there more than they could use Tebow if he doesn't turn out to be Steve Young 2.0.

Broncos_OTM
11-26-2010, 12:23 PM
Find me some drop numbers and we can talk about it. I'm still not convinced that Thomas is struggling with his catching.

If you want to make the point that we should have picked up Dan Williams or Ziggy Hood with that pick instead of Thomas, I'm all ears, but Thomas isn't performing badly for a rookie WR.

I am unable to find Dropped pass numbers if i find em ill bring em up. I dissaggree with you and only time will tell. Ill be glad to go down saying that i see more Ashley Lelie then i do see a Brandon Marshall. Who ironically enough is top three in dropped passes in the nfl this year.

From everything i have read and heard Dan Williams has been actually pretty solid and looks to be a qaulity pick. However it is his rookie season and i have liked they have worked him in and not rushed him. I think he will be a qaulity NT for years to come. Ziggy hood is in his second year....

Most of us broncos fans realize that getting old vets along the line is not the answer to the problems along the trenches. So yes i am most definetly of the mind that we should have drafted more Youth aloong the line to go along with the ageing dinasours we have there currently

I still think it was a mistake cutting Chris Baker.

Broncos_OTM
11-26-2010, 12:28 PM
I just hope that Tebow turns out to be worthy of that pick. I can see why it was made, but I also see a team that could have used a ton of other players that were available there more than they could use Tebow if he doesn't turn out to be Steve Young 2.0.Tebow was a luxury pick. I really like Tebow and think he is a class act and i am glad he is a denver bronco. But you have Kyle Orton who is a decent QB. We knew what we had in him. Also we had Brady Quin who was yet another highly valued QB. Who i thought with the right QB coach might make something out of him. I think that is some great compeition. about the only thing that tebow as a qb i dont like is he is a left handed passer and if he is the QBOTF. We are going to have a dilema becuase the blind side will be switched. and i hope that clady is able to play on the right side. other wise it makes clady useless as well.

Champagne Powder
11-29-2010, 12:05 PM
for the record.. The rams have won 5 games this year and last year combined.

I'm sure the patient fans around this board would have been just fine with that.

Spag - 5 - 20

mcd - 11-15

i'd say the jury is still out on both of these coaches.


Spag is sitting pretty now in first place and looking at a home playoff game.