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TonyR
10-21-2009, 07:16 AM
Kyle high and Jay low in '09
Orton's outperforming Cutler, becoming a star in Denver under McDaniels

October 21, 2009
BY RICK TELANDER rtelander@suntimes.com

Monday morning quarterbacking is easy --about as easy as Sunday afternoon quarterbacking is hard.

But we got some stuff here, folks.

The Bears are quarterback Jay Cutler's team for the next half-decade, for instance.

On Tuesday night, Bears general manager Jerry Angelo made it official just five games into the season, getting Cutler to sign a contract extension that will keep him in Chicago through 2013 and will earn him Manning-brothers-type loot. We're talking $20million in up-front bonus money on a contract with a total value of close to $30 million.

So there's that.

But there's also this: The quarterback the Bears tossed to the Denver Broncos as a low-level substitute in their offseason trade for Cutler -- the bearded and limited Kyle Orton -- is having a better season than Cutler.

Indeed, Orton, the former Bears starter who had to watch Rex Grossman dither around in the backfield for nearly two years, is pretty much amazing the entire NFL world as he has led the seemingly downgraded Broncos to a tie for the best record in the league at 6-0.

On Monday night against the San Diego Chargers, Orton led his team to a 34-23 road victory that had people in Chicago muttering into their beers that the guy who never quite grabbed our attention while here was certainly going to melt down at the end.

He didn't.

Orton threw two second-half touchdown passes, capping his night with a five-yard pass to wideout Brandon Stokley, who rolled into the end zone and finished the Chargers with 2:55 left.

For the game, Orton went 20-for-29 for 229 yards, two touchdowns and no interceptions. His passer rating of 115.4 brought his season rating up to a stunning 101.1.

Sensational numbers
Orton has completed 64 percent of his passes for 1,465 yards, nine touchdowns and only one interception. At that rate, he'll throw for 3,907 yards, 24 touchdowns and 2 2/3 interceptions in 2009.

Is this the guy who played for the Bears?

Apparently so. Because we can see formerly lazy and reviled Bears running back Cedric Benson of the Cincinnati Bengals leading the league in carries (127) with the NFL's third-best rushing yardage (531) and the best rushing average (4.2 yards) of his career. This while Bears running back Matt Forte plummets.

Sometimes a change of scenery can change your life. And sometimes the team that had you just didn't know how to use you, stroke you or bring out your best.

And you wonder: Whose fault is that? And further: Do the Bears ruin their offensive stars?

Cutler is doing quite well for the Bears. Well, not bad. But it's his wildness in the red zone and those seven interceptions that make one pause.

Yes, Orton has been lucky and blessed -- how many times can you count on a pass being deflected to one of your receivers for an 87-yard game-winning touchdown (Orton-to-Stokley in Game 1 against the Bengals)? And how many punt and kickoff returns for touchdowns do you normally get in a game? (Against the Chargers, the Broncos' Eddie Royal ran back one of each.)

Yet the slow-footed but shrewd Orton is blossoming in the Broncos' shotgun offense -- his rating in the gun was 132.2 against the Chargers but only 48.6 in his few under-center snaps -- and that is all about coaching.

If you think back to that Bears-Broncos preseason game Aug. 30, things looked terrible for the Broncos and Orton. Broncos coach Josh McDaniels was getting roundly vilified and painted as a mean, dumb, childish clone snapped from the rib of former mentor Bill Belichick.

Timing is everything
Cutler looked great in that game, Orton awful. Orton came out for good that night with his hand bleeding and a shocked look on his face.

But what did it mean? Nothing.

McDaniels looks like a genius now (remember how eager he was to replace Cutler?), and Orton looks like the second coming of Bart Starr.

''The league is funny. It's all about timing,'' Cutler said Tuesday on the ''Waddle and Silvy Show'' on WMVP-AM (1000). ''You could be one of the best players in the league, but if you're not in the right system, you don't have the right people around you, there's a lot of different aspects that go into making or breaking a player.

''It's working for Kyle. It's working for Josh. And it's working for the Broncos. They've got a good thing going.''

Do the Bears?

There's no way they could've locked up the wrong quarterback.

Is there?

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/telander/1837007,CST-SPT-rick21.article#

barryr
10-21-2009, 07:28 AM
That's a good point. Benson has been playing much better after leaving Chicago just like Orton. Maybe Grossman needs another shot from some team.

jhns
10-21-2009, 07:35 AM
Why would they have extended the wrong QB? Orton could never even get 3000 yards there. They never won when the defense was playing bad. Cutler had one bad game and has played very good since. He is also still winning just as much as Orton was while being new to the team. I think both teams are very happy with who they have. Chicago was never going anywhere with Orton and it doesn't really matter if that is ortons fault or the coaching.

I also don't think Orton and Cutler are the ones responsible for the defenses and special teams play. Orton switched teams and now we are the ones getting return TDs. Is Orton a great special teams blocker or what? Cutler was on a team with the majority of the starting defense hurt here and now a lot of the stars of that defense are all getting hurt. Is that Cutlers fault? Our defense saw the fewest drives in the league, so it isn't Cutler putting them on the field a lot. Are his hard passes injuring everyone in practice or what? This is a team game and making arguments that it is all one player doing something is always going to sound dumb to me.

TonyR
10-21-2009, 07:38 AM
Check out the poll results here.

http://blogs.usatoday.com/gameon/2009/10/wednesday-eyeopener-1.html

tsiguy96
10-21-2009, 07:40 AM
Why would they have extended the wrong QB? Orton could never even get 3000 yards there. They never won when the defense was playing bad. Cutler had one bad game and has played very good since. He is also still winning just as much as Orton was while being new to the team. I think both teams are very happy with who they have. Chicago was never going anywhere with Orton and it doesn't really matter if that is ortons fault or the coaching.

I also don't think Orton and Cutler are the ones responsible for the defenses and special teams play. Orton switched teams and now we are the ones getting return TDs. Is Orton a great special teams blocker or what? Cutler was on a team with the majority of the starting defense hurt here and now a lot of the stars of that defense are all getting hurt. Is that Cutlers fault? Our defense saw the fewest drives in the league, so it isn't Cutler putting them on the field a lot. Are his hard passes injuring everyone in practice or what? This is a team game and making arguments that it is all one player doing something is always going to sound dumb to me.

you must really want cutlers weiner.

HEAV
10-21-2009, 07:43 AM
When are Bears fans going to learn that it's their coaching staff that needs changed? The Bears can trade and sign every al-pro in the league but the coaching staff wouldn't know what to do with them.

jhns
10-21-2009, 07:45 AM
you must really want cutlers weiner.

Why is that what is on your mind? Little girls don't need to be thinking of that kind of thing.

Irish Stout
10-21-2009, 08:56 AM
Why would they have extended the wrong QB? Orton could never even get 3000 yards there. They never won when the defense was playing bad. Cutler had one bad game and has played very good since. He is also still winning just as much as Orton was while being new to the team. I think both teams are very happy with who they have. Chicago was never going anywhere with Orton and it doesn't really matter if that is ortons fault or the coaching.

I also don't think Orton and Cutler are the ones responsible for the defenses and special teams play. Orton switched teams and now we are the ones getting return TDs. Is Orton a great special teams blocker or what? Cutler was on a team with the majority of the starting defense hurt here and now a lot of the stars of that defense are all getting hurt. Is that Cutlers fault? Our defense saw the fewest drives in the league, so it isn't Cutler putting them on the field a lot. Are his hard passes injuring everyone in practice or what? This is a team game and making arguments that it is all one player doing something is always going to sound dumb to me.


You mean the Kyle Orton who they only let start 15 games last year? The one who had no O-line and got sacked 27 times? The one who threw 18 TDs and was only 30 yards off from a 3,000 yard year?

You realize that through 6 weeks with the Bears Cutler is on basically the same pace as Orton for yards? Cutler has more TD passes, but the running game has been worse.... oh but he also has 7 Ints and 5 fumbles... hmmm.

Chicago would have been fine had they re-signed Chicago. Their record may or may not be different, but their is a valid argument that you don't get tthe 4 ints in game 1 against the packers if you still had Orton.

LRtagger
10-21-2009, 09:05 AM
oh but he also has 7 Ints and 5 fumbles... hmmm.

Chicago would have been fine had they re-signed Chicago. Their record may or may not be different, but their is a valid argument that you don't get tthe 4 ints in game 1 against the packers if you still had Orton.

Not only that but 7 Ints and 5 Fumbles from Jay this year were he still in Denver and the Broncos are 4-2 at best...probably 3-3 or 2-4.

jhns
10-21-2009, 09:05 AM
You mean the Kyle Orton who they only let start 15 games last year? The one who had no O-line and got sacked 27 times? The one who threw 18 TDs and was only 30 yards off from a 3,000 yard year?

You realize that through 6 weeks with the Bears Cutler is on basically the same pace as Orton for yards? Cutler has more TD passes, but the running game has been worse.... oh but he also has 7 Ints and 5 fumbles... hmmm.

Chicago would have been fine had they re-signed Chicago. Their record may or may not be different, but their is a valid argument that you don't get tthe 4 ints in game 1 against the packers if you still had Orton.

You do realize how easy 3000 yards is right? Even minus a game, average QBs throw that in their sleep. Those 5 fumblea are also not turnovers. In fact I know a couplke just fell to the ground under cutler as he fell on them. Yes, orton probably doesn't throw those picks. He also doesn't pick up the offense by himself and win some of those other games. Have you watched them at all this year? Do you really think Cutler can't reach 3000 yardsV why the comparison of pace then? I should be impressed that orton stopped playing good each season as the seasons progressed?

Again, Cutler is winning in Chicago just as much as Orton was. He has a worse run game, the same crappy o-line, and a far more injured and worse defense/special teams. I don't see how they signed the wrong guy.

Rohirrim
10-21-2009, 09:09 AM
I don't see why everybody is so suprised. If you watched Orton at Purdue, you would have expected this. He's a good QB, especially in the "head on his shoulders" department, which is a hell of a lot more crucial than some people give it credit.

Take a guy playing now, Clausen at ND. I wouldn't put that guy on my team for free. He's a whiner and a punk. He will be nothing but trouble in the future, IMO.

jhns
10-21-2009, 09:15 AM
Not only that but 7 Ints and 5 Fumbles from Jay this year were he still in Denver and the Broncos are 4-2 at best...probably 3-3 or 2-4.

First off, that makes no sense when my argument was that Cutler is better for Chicago than Orton and Orton is good here. Second, who says Cutler turns the ball over that much if he was here? Third, those fumbles are not turnovers.

cutthemdown
10-21-2009, 09:17 AM
It's always a possibility that if we had Cutler we would be 6-0, or still really good record, but scoring a lot more.

We will never really know what Cutler would have been like under Mcdaniels teachings. Maybe they would have clashed, maybe Cutler be going just one of those things you would never wish for, but in the long run is best for the team.

Drek
10-21-2009, 09:19 AM
Again, Cutler is winning in Chicago just as much as Orton was. He has a worse run game, the same crappy o-line, and a far more injured and worse defense/special teams. I don't see how they signed the wrong guy.

The Bears defense is currently 13th in Yards per game and 15th in points per game. Last year they where 21st in yards and 16th in points.

So how is it worse? Because it doesn't have Urlacher? Its outproducing last year's D.

The backs are the same, the OL was supposed to be improved with the addition of Pace (which I told everyone wouldn't make a damn bit of difference).

So why do you give Cutler $15M a year to give you what Orton was, with nearly the same offensive support (though Orton never had Johnny Knox) and a less productive defense than what Cutler has now?

TheElusiveKyleOrton
10-21-2009, 09:20 AM
You do realize how easy 3000 yards is right? Even minus a game, average QBs throw that in their sleep. Those 5 fumblea are also not turnovers. In fact I know a couplke just fell to the ground under cutler as he fell on them. Yes, orton probably doesn't throw those picks. He also doesn't pick up the offense by himself and win some of those other games. Have you watched them at all this year? Do you really think Cutler can't reach 3000 yardsV why the comparison of pace then? I should be impressed that orton stopped playing good each season as the seasons progressed?

Again, Cutler is winning in Chicago just as much as Orton was. He has a worse run game, the same crappy o-line, and a far more injured and worse defense/special teams. I don't see how they signed the wrong guy.

Couple problems with that statement. First, the acquisition of a "FRANCHISE QUARTERBACK" was supposed to make a SIGNIFICANT difference for that franchise. Period. He wasn't brought in to win the same amount of games. He was brought in to win MORE games. Not sure why that's so hard to see.

Second, Orton is winning MORE in Denver than Cutler was. With a similar supporting cast, that same offensive line and receivers. The difference? Why, turnovers, of course!

jhns
10-21-2009, 09:30 AM
The Bears defense is currently 13th in Yards per game and 15th in points per game. Last year they where 21st in yards and 16th in points.

So how is it worse? Because it doesn't have Urlacher? Its outproducing last year's D.

The backs are the same, the OL was supposed to be improved with the addition of Pace (which I told everyone wouldn't make a damn bit of. difference).

So why do you give Cutler $15M a year to give you what Orton was, with nearly the same offensive support (though Orton never had Johnny Knox) and a less productive defense than what Cutler has now?

First off, try proving Knox isn't a product of Cutler. He goes there and suddenly their receivers(including ones already there) can play. Orton comes here and guys like Royal fall off....

Second, who cares if something is supposed to be better. Their o-line has been junk so far. Their defense could be producing close to the same other than the fact that it was the offense that hurt them more than anything last season. They were far better if you break that down to a per drive stats. They also faced the most drives in the league. You want to know something else that is funny? Our defense saw the fewest drives in the league. You want to know another huge difference and the one I was talking about? They also got more turnovers last year and the defense/special teams both scored a ton for Chicago last year. They aren't even close to the same pace.

You want to know why you pay Cutler? They just traded their future for him and he is winning just as much in his first year their as Orton was winning in his 4th year their. This is only the start to. They could get a lot better as he learns to play with that offense. I would say I have already seen him get better. If he doesn't, they are screwed. At that point, I can be happy I am a Bronco fan.

jhns
10-21-2009, 09:34 AM
Couple problems with that statement. First, the acquisition of a "FRANCHISE QUARTERBACK" was supposed to make a SIGNIFICANT difference for that franchise. Period. He wasn't brought in to win the same amount of games. He was brought in to win MORE games. Not sure why that's so hard to see.

Second, Orton is winning MORE in Denver than Cutler was. With a similar supporting cast, that same offensive line and receivers. The difference? Why, turnovers, of course!

He is winning the same in his first few starts. Are you actually saying he can't improve? I would say you should watch their games because he already has been.

As for your other comments, that is exactly why I said I think both teams are happy....

TailgateNut
10-21-2009, 09:36 AM
^is the suckfest continuing?

Drek
10-21-2009, 09:38 AM
I don't see why everybody is so suprised. If you watched Orton at Purdue, you would have expected this. He's a good QB, especially in the "head on his shoulders" department, which is a hell of a lot more crucial than some people give it credit.

Take a guy playing now, Clausen at ND. I wouldn't put that guy on my team for free. He's a whiner and a punk. He will be nothing but trouble in the future, IMO.

Clausen has actually matured quite a bit since coming to ND.

He entered the program like he thought he was a ready made superstar and talked about winning three championships. He's been humbled quite rapidly and is now just beginning to learn what it is to lead a team. He's got a long ways to go still, but much of the arrogance and attitude has been shoved back down his throat, and he's changed a lot as a result.

His biggest problem is that he's stuck with Wiess as his HC, who is a great OC but just doesn't have the mindset of a head coach. They often put themselves in bad spots late in games as a result.

jhns
10-21-2009, 09:42 AM
You want to know why you pay Cutler? They just traded their future for him and he is winning just as much in his first year their as Orton was winning in his 4th year their. .

I can't get my edit to work but I would like to add that I know the differenve between there and their. Just not when I typed that.

SonOfLe-loLang
10-21-2009, 09:42 AM
Its simple: Orton is a better QB for Denver, Cutler is a better QB for chicago. The Denver offense is incredibly cerebral. The QB has to make many pre-snap reads, change running lanes, and always know the right place to go with the ball. This is perfect for Orton. Cutler is way too much of a gunslinger, cant read underneath coverage for ****, often locks on his receivers.

The Chicago offense is much more simplified and allows Jay to use his natural talents to succeed. Its not nearly as creative as the Broncos scheme. Its also why its not as good.

Oh, and Cutler has had two bad games. His last game was anything but impressive.

SonOfLe-loLang
10-21-2009, 09:43 AM
Clausen has actually matured quite a bit since coming to ND.

He entered the program like he thought he was a ready made superstar and talked about winning three championships. He's been humbled quite rapidly and is now just beginning to learn what it is to lead a team. He's got a long ways to go still, but much of the arrogance and attitude has been shoved back down his throat, and he's changed a lot as a result.

His biggest problem is that he's stuck with Wiess as his HC, who is a great OC but just doesn't have the mindset of a head coach. They often put themselves in bad spots late in games as a result.

Clausen throws a sweet deep ball

underrated29
10-21-2009, 09:56 AM
why does every thread have to turn into a cutler bash thread.

The guy, jhns, made a valid arguement and opinion.

But now it has ultimately turner into a you love jays balls. Go suck on his scholng some more. Jay sucks, jays sucks we got orton he rules and jay sucks.



I think by now we all know both sides to the jay sucks vs jay rules debates. Just let it go.


I think the bears were smart to extend him, and obviously the bears do too. So it is kinda weird that the article asks if they resigned the right qb? They sure as hell arent getting kyle back from us. So who else out there is better.?

Jason campbell? the vikings backup qb jackson? We made out like bandints and they got a good deal too. Questioning the extension of jay- seems stupid to me and only shows people still cant let it go.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
10-21-2009, 09:57 AM
He is winning the same in his first few starts. Are you actually saying he can't improve? I would say you should watch their games because he already has been.

As for your other comments, that is exactly why I said I think both teams are happy....

Of course he CAN improve. Everyone CAN improve. YOu could suddenly start posting stuff that doesn't suck.

But the Bears gave up a king's ransom for Cutler with the hope or understanding that he would come in and immediately make a significant difference in the W/L column. It hasn't happened. Why do you think they made the desperation move for gaines Adams?

SonOfLe-loLang
10-21-2009, 09:58 AM
why does every thread have to turn into a cutler bash thread.

The guy, jhns, made a valid arguement and opinion.

But now it has ultimately turner into a you love jays balls. Go suck on his scholng some more. Jay sucks, jays sucks we got orton he rules and jay sucks.



I think by now we all know both sides to the jay sucks vs jay rules debates. Just let it go.


I think the bears were smart to extend him, and obviously the bears do too. So it is kinda weird that the article asks if they resigned the right qb? They sure as hell arent getting kyle back from us. So who else out there is better.?

Jason campbell? the vikings backup qb jackson? We made out like bandints and they got a good deal too. Questioning the extension of jay- seems stupid to me and only shows people still cant let it go.


The reason people are getting on jhns's case is not because of this post, but his entire body of posts over the past few months. Simply put, he has trouble admitting he's wrong.

jhns
10-21-2009, 10:03 AM
Of course he CAN improve. Everyone CAN improve. YOu could suddenly start posting stuff that doesn't suck.

But the Bears gave up a king's ransom for Cutler with the hope or understanding that he would come in and immediately make a significant difference in the W/L column. It hasn't happened. Why do you think they made the desperation move for gaines Adams?

Yeah, I can see why we should be down on jay not winning 10+ games in the first 5 weeks. You have made me see the light......

Now let's use our heads and realize that is impossible and that this trade is one that affects the next 12 years, not 5 games....

TailgateNut
10-21-2009, 10:04 AM
. So who else out there is better.?

.

Rivers. Just ask him!

fdf
10-21-2009, 10:06 AM
why does every thread have to turn into a cutler bash thread.

With respect, this thread is titled "Orton Outperforms Cutler . . . " or some such. So it's not as if the thread got hijacked. I kind of enjoy the silliness on threads like this one. But if you don't like Cutler vs Orton threads, I would avoid threads with similar titles in the future :)

OTOH, I get annoyed too when threads about Dumervil's sack production end up Jay vs Kyle threads. And that happens a lot.

bpc
10-21-2009, 10:09 AM
Personally I hope that Lovie is fired and Shanahan takes over his home state Bears. That would be pretty awesome and funny at the same time.

If Lovie does bad enough to get fired, that's good for us.

Win/Win situation. Maybe the Bears and Broncos meet in the super bowl in a few years. How ironic would that be?

I hope that Orton understands his limitations, who good of a thing he has in Denver right now with the playmakers and OL, plus coaching/playcalling and decides to re-up for less than market value for a premium QB.

He's been to the other side.... he shouldn't want to go back.

RMT
10-21-2009, 10:11 AM
You do realize how easy 3000 yards is right? Even minus a game, average QBs throw that in their sleep. Those 5 fumblea are also not turnovers. In fact I know a couplke just fell to the ground under cutler as he fell on them. Yes, orton probably doesn't throw those picks. He also doesn't pick up the offense by himself and win some of those other games. Have you watched them at all this year? Do you really think Cutler can't reach 3000 yardsV why the comparison of pace then? I should be impressed that orton stopped playing good each season as the seasons progressed?

Again, Cutler is winning in Chicago just as much as Orton was. He has a worse run game, the same crappy o-line, and a far more injured and worse defense/special teams. I don't see how they signed the wrong guy.

worse defense? - WRONG, WRONG, WRONG ... the bears defense is currently ranked #13 ... last year they finished #21 and #26 in 2007.

Popcorn Sutton
10-21-2009, 10:14 AM
I really don't give a **** at this point. I give McDaniels props for seeing something in Orton that NOBODY else did. He was basically a throw in... In my mind we traded Cutler for 2 firsts and a third and we traded a 5th rounder for Orton. I'd trade a 5th for Orton in this system any day of the week. The fact that we got two firsts and a third for Cutler given his overall whiny (me first) attitude is quite simply a King's Ransom.

I don't care if Chicago is happy with the deal or not... I'm happy with it and I think an increasing number of Broncos fans agree.

BTW, I had to laugh watching Trent Dilfer on ESPN yesterday. He actually said that Kyle Orton needs to be included in the discussion as one of the top QB's in the league... Wow. It's amazing these guys get paid as well as they do.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
10-21-2009, 10:15 AM
Yeah, I can see why we should be down on jay not winning 10+ games in the first 5 weeks. You have made me see the light......

Now let's use our heads and realize that is impossible and that this trade is one that affects the next 12 years, not 5 games....

Right. Because I said that people should be down on Jay for not winning 10 games in five weeks. This is the major issue I have with your posts: not only do they not make sense, they're overly-argumentative and somewhat retarded, filled with completely absurd logic.

The red zone turnovers are very real. He's thrown twice as many as anyone else in the league in the last two years. And unless he improves in this area -- without a first or second round pick this year, it's going to be tough -- he won't be better than a .500 quarterback.

I'm not sure why you take offense to that.

Popcorn Sutton
10-21-2009, 10:17 AM
The reason people are getting on jhns's case is not because of this post, but his entire body of posts over the past few months. Simply put, he has trouble admitting he's wrong.

Bingo. :thumbsup:

Not to mention virulently rooting for McDaniels to get fired which essentially equates to rooting for the Broncos to FAIL miserably.

Popcorn Sutton
10-21-2009, 10:18 AM
Right. Because I said that people should be down on Jay for not winning 10 games in five weeks. This is the major issue I have with your posts: not only do they not make sense, they're overly-argumentative and somewhat retarded, filled with completely absurd logic.

The red zone turnovers are very real. He's thrown twice as many as anyone else in the league in the last two years. And unless he improves in this area -- without a first or second round pick this year, it's going to be tough -- he won't be better than a .500 quarterback.

I'm not sure why you take offense to that.

His red zone numbers are especially bad when compared to Orton's 30 TD to 2 INT's in the red zone.

jhns
10-21-2009, 10:21 AM
Right. Because I said that people should be down on Jay for not winning 10 games in five weeks. This is the major issue I have with your posts: not only do they not make sense, they're overly-argumentative and somewhat retarded, filled with completely absurd logic.

The red zone turnovers are very real. He's thrown twice as many as anyone else in the league in the last two years. And unless he improves in this area -- without a first or second round pick this year, it's going to be tough -- he won't be better than a .500 quarterback.

I'm not sure why you take offense to that.

Read your posts. They were going on about him not improving on wins over what Orton did. 10 wins is what he needs to do that. Again, impossible to do in 5 games.

I don't take offense to any of this. I just state my opinion and defend it as long as you want to argue about it. If I use dumb logic, it is because that is what is being used against my argument. Why would I stick to well thought out points when you guys come with stuff that is so dumb?

tsiguy96
10-21-2009, 10:21 AM
Bingo. :thumbsup:

Not to mention virulently rooting for McDaniels to get fired which essentially equates to rooting for the Broncos to FAIL miserably.

and people wonder why we keep bringing up these idiots posts from the offseason instead of just moving on. they wont admit they were wrong for declaring doom and gloom and wanting this team to fail, continue to preach wed be better with cutler, but wont explain how you get better than 6-0. try to downplay this teams wins and overemphasize their failures. who does that sound like? a rival teams fans talking about the broncos, not bronco fans themselves. makes no sense to me how people are still bitching about why a 6-0 team isnt good enough.

jhns
10-21-2009, 10:23 AM
Bingo. :thumbsup:

Not to mention virulently rooting for McDaniels to get fired which essentially equates to rooting for the Broncos to FAIL miserably.

See what I mean about being dumb? This stuff doesn't even make sense....

DenverBrit
10-21-2009, 10:27 AM
Both teams seem to have the player they were looking for.

Denver gets a QB playing at a pro-bowl level and Chicago gets a QB who has been to the pro-bowl.

Eldorado
10-21-2009, 10:28 AM
Cutler would have gone full on pouty-emo the first time McD ripped him.

Gort
10-21-2009, 10:32 AM
It's always a possibility that if we had Cutler we would be 6-0, or still really good record, but scoring a lot more.

We will never really know what Cutler would have been like under Mcdaniels teachings. Maybe they would have clashed, maybe Cutler be going just one of those things you would never wish for, but in the long run is best for the team.

maybe... maybe... this is the Minnesota-Dallas-Herschel Walker trade all over again and we are in the role of Dallas. :)

jhns
10-21-2009, 10:33 AM
and people wonder why we keep bringing up these idiots posts from the offseason instead of just moving on. they wont admit they were wrong for declaring doom and gloom and wanting this team to fail, continue to preach wed be better with cutler, but wont explain how you get better than 6-0. try to downplay this teams wins and overemphasize their failures. who does that sound like? a rival teams fans talking about the broncos, not bronco fans themselves. makes no sense to me how people are still b****ing about why a 6-0 team isnt good enough.

I have argued this entire time that both teams are happy and better off. I also said the article is wrong becuase it sounds like only the Broncos canbe happy. How is that at all like what you just said?

Oh right it isn't. You are just the local little girl on the board that does nothing but cry all day. Who gives a **** if others respect the Broncos? Do you like them and what they are doing? Why cry about other opinions so much then? You are insecure like a little girl and you cry publicly. Very sad.

tsiguy96
10-21-2009, 10:34 AM
speaking of not making sense, jhns. some highlights. allow me:

<hr style="color: rgb(255, 0, 0);" size="1"> <!-- / icon and title --> <!-- message --> See what I have been saying. Most every analyst, ex-coach, ex-player, and ex-gm that I have seen says that this team has screwed up bad. I do not get what some of you are thinking when you cry that we all need to love mcdaniels. Why would I love someone that screws up my team? Why would I support bad decisions and hope that they continue for a few more years? Only "real fans" that don't understand what they are watching would support this front office.

Here is a little piece of info you real fans are forgetting. Mcdaniels/Xanders are not the Denver Broncos and will not be around nearly as long as the team. It is why I don't understand cutler trade support. Even if mcdaniels is good he wouldn't be on this team longer than cutler is in the league. Did you ever think about the fact that future coaches actually want a good QB? I'm pretty sure mcd is the first coach I have ever seen that hates good QBs.


he hates 6-0 QBs with QB rating over 100, 9 TD and 1 hail mary INT. me too.
Originally Posted by TailgateNut http://www.orangemane.com/BB/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?p=2545177#post2545177)
:spit: How many losses "WAS" Cun tler for this team last year?
JHNS:

Not even near the number orton will be responsible for.

yea, a sold 0 losses thus far. good call though.

I can't speak for everyone but that trade makes me mad because we got straight ripped off and it has nothing to do with the player we got. We traded a top 10-15 pick for a single second round pick. If it ends up being a top 10 pick, there is no way you could convince anyone we got any kind of value.

We should have smith plus a lot of other stuff. As it stands now, we need to finish with double digit wins in order for it to be justifiable. We got completely ripped off. Smith could be the best ever and we were still ripped off in the trade because of an inexperienced front office. I still do not understand getting a full rookie front office

well jackass, in your own words, this trade is becoming completely justifiable. not yet, but soon. you, however, dont seem to care that you are always wrong about everything, and your lack of knowledge of how NFL trades work proves it.

It took a ton of injuries to derail this team last season. Without a single injury, we will not win 8 games this year. The early excuse making is pretty lame. Why give mcdaniels a free pass? What exactly has he done for denver to earn the respect of the fans?

If we can't match last years win total, we need a new front office. People claim this team was so horrible but the offense was all rookie-third year guys and both units had tons of injuries. We also had our franchises worst ever defense. There is no excuse for being a 3-4 win team. I can't believe fans are already trying to justify it.

LOL LOL LOL

dunno if im gonna continue, maybe later. you have a ton of gems on this forum.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
10-21-2009, 10:34 AM
Read your posts. They were going on about him not improving on wins over what Orton did. 10 wins is what he needs to do that. Again, impossible to do in 5 games.

I don't take offense to any of this. I just state my opinion and defend it as long as you want to argue about it. If I use dumb logic, it is because that is what is being used against my argument. Why would I stick to well thought out points when you guys come with stuff that is so dumb?

Read YOUR posts. "He's winning just as much as Orton was." He was brought in to win MORE than Orton was. They didn't give up two first rounders and a third rounder to get the same quarterback they were replacing. You don't get that because you do love Cutler, and that's fine, you know, some people like Coldplay too.

DenverBrit
10-21-2009, 10:35 AM
Cutler would have gone full on pouty-emo the first time McD ripped him.

Agreed....and the team chemistry would be very different.

Gort
10-21-2009, 10:35 AM
and people wonder why we keep bringing up these idiots posts from the offseason instead of just moving on. they wont admit they were wrong for declaring doom and gloom and wanting this team to fail, continue to preach wed be better with cutler, but wont explain how you get better than 6-0. try to downplay this teams wins and overemphasize their failures. who does that sound like? a rival teams fans talking about the broncos, not bronco fans themselves. makes no sense to me how people are still b****ing about why a 6-0 team isnt good enough.

some people would rather lose pretty than win ugly. i'll take a QB who throws for 2800 yards a year who wins over one who throws for 4500 and consistently turns the ball over in the red zone and loses.

there is no doubt that Cutler has more raw talent. but h's not the better QB. there is more to being a good QB than talent. look at Bradshaw... he's in the HOF and won a bunch of superbowls and he didn't haven't a whole lot of talent. on the flip side... there is jeff george. see what i mean?

TailgateNut
10-21-2009, 10:38 AM
Agreed....and the team chemistry would be very different.

It would be Griese-esque.

tsiguy96
10-21-2009, 10:39 AM
some people would rather lose pretty than win ugly. i'll take a QB who throws for 2800 yards a year who wins over one who throws for 4500 and consistently turns the ball over in the red zone and loses.

there is no doubt that Cutler has more raw talent. but h's not the better QB. there is more to being a good QB than talent. look at Bradshaw... he's in the HOF and won a bunch of superbowls and he didn't haven't a whole lot of talent. on the flip side... there is jeff george. see what i mean?

i agree completely, elway never threw for 4k yards did he? passing yards does not equate to wins, they were talking about it on sirius how 3 years ago, throwing for 300 yards usually meant a losing effort, in more recent times its a slightly winning effort, but not a great correlation at all.

jhns
10-21-2009, 10:40 AM
Read YOUR posts. "He's winning just as much as Orton was." He was brought in to win MORE than Orton was. They didn't give up two first rounders and a third rounder to get the same quarterback they were replacing. You don't get that because you do love Cutler, and that's fine, you know, some people like Coldplay too.

Again, he can't win more yet. How are you going to hold it against him that he hasn't? Again, dumb argument.

DenverBrit
10-21-2009, 10:41 AM
It would be Griese-esque.

Absolutely, but with a deeper ball. ;D

TheElusiveKyleOrton
10-21-2009, 10:44 AM
Again, he can't win more yet. How are you going to hold it against him that he hasn't? Again, dumb argument.

http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/facepalm.jpg

What part of this do you not understand? They're 3-2. They could have been 3-2 with Orton. They were supposed to be a Super Bowl contender, and it was BECAUSE of the acquisition of Cutler.

I'm not sure how you could be any dumber.

jhns
10-21-2009, 10:46 AM
well jackass, in your own words, this trade is becoming completely justifiable. not yet, but soon. you, however, dont seem to care that you are always wrong about everything, and your lack of knowledge of how NFL trades work proves it.


Wow you are a dumb ass dude. I have argued that it was a good trade for both teams through this entire thread. What are you going on about now? It doesn't make a lot of sense. Again, being that little girl I talked about. You, tailgate, and a few others got your feelings hurt and now have no ability to make sense. That is letting your emotions control you. That is being a teenage girl...

Gort
10-21-2009, 10:49 AM
http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/facepalm.jpg

What part of this do you not understand? They're 3-2. They could have been 3-2 with Orton. They were supposed to be a Super Bowl contender, and it was BECAUSE of the acquisition of Cutler.

I'm not sure how you could be any dumber.

the Vikings with Favre (who can argue is an actual franchise QB) at 6-0 aren't helping things in Chicago either. Cutler is 2 1/2 games back, after only 6 weeks.

:D

jhns
10-21-2009, 10:50 AM
http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/facepalm.jpg

What part of this do you not understand? They're 3-2. They could have been 3-2 with Orton. They were supposed to be a Super Bowl contender, and it was BECAUSE of the acquisition of Cutler.

I'm not sure how you could be any dumber.

How can they be 3-2 with Orton? Cutler carried that team in a couple of those wins and made plays Orton could only dream of making. He had game winning drives in them. Who says Orton does the same? Again, how are they out of the playoff race in 5 games? Your argument is dumb. He can't win 10+ games and be a SB contender in 5 games. I'm not sure why that is so hard for you to understand.

TailgateNut
10-21-2009, 10:51 AM
Can't resist:

jhns
10-21-2009, 10:52 AM
Let me simplify this again. How can you say he isn't going to win more than Orton after 5 games have been played? Orton didn't win 10 and Cutler has a great shot at it.....

TonyR
10-21-2009, 10:54 AM
speaking of not making sense, jhns. some highlights.

That's good stuff, thanks tsi. After reading this you have to wonder how jhns wouldn't understand some of us questioning his arguments. It would be difficult to fail any worse than he did in those posts. And yet he comes in here confidently claiming to be right again. You can't make this stuff up.

Gort
10-21-2009, 11:00 AM
Let me simplify this again. How can you say he isn't going to win more than Orton after 5 games have been played? Orton didn't win 10 and Cutler has a great shot at it.....

ok, i'll bite.

take a look at chicago's remaining schedule. there are only 3 games they "should" win. the rest of the games could easily go down as losses.

@ CIN = probable loss
CLE - probable win
AZ = possible loss
@SF = possible loss
PHI = possible loss
@ MIN = probable loss
STL = probable win
GB = probable loss
@ BAL = probable loss
MIN = probable loss
@ DET = probable win

that looks like 5-7 more losses to me. not a 10 win season for them. 9-7 at best.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
10-21-2009, 11:00 AM
How can they be 3-2 with Orton? Cutler carried that team in a couple of those wins and made plays Orton could only dream of making. He had game winning drives in them. Who says Orton does the same? Again, how are they out of the playoff race in 5 games? Your argument is dumb. He can't win 10+ games and be a SB contender in 5 games. I'm not sure why that is so hard for you to understand.

I NEVER SAID THEY NEEDED TO WIN 10 GAMES IN FIVE GAMES PLAYED. Please pull your head out of your ass and stop making up bull**** to try and prove some incomprehensible point.

Orton hasn't turned the ball over. Cutler HAS. Cutler wouldn't need to make those game winning drives if he hadn't screwed the pooch earlier in the game with interceptions.

If Cutler throws two fewer picks in Green Bay, they win going away. He couldn't do it.

Why are you so stupid? Paint chips? Live under power lines? Mom drop you on your head?

jhns
10-21-2009, 11:00 AM
That's good stuff, thanks tsi. After reading this you have to wonder how jhns wouldn't understand some of us questioning his arguments. It would be difficult to fail any worse than he did in those posts. And yet he comes in here confidently claiming to be right again. You can't make this stuff up.

When did I say I don't understand you questioning my arguments? How is this good stuff drom tsi when he is going on about something that never happened in this thread? Just because I have said some dumb things make all of these dumb ass arguments correct? I don't think so, maybe you guys do though...

CEH
10-21-2009, 11:01 AM
Chicago can't develop QBs nor from the look of Forte so far any kind of offensive system. Cutler has so much natural ability he can improve CHI offense even with Lovie and Turner there. Also Cutler wants to have more say in play calling somethingh won't get here.

Orton is taking to the teaching of McD and staff and it's apprarent we can develop QBs.

They threw out a stupid stat that Culter had 3 straight games of 100+ QB rating the first time ever for a CHI QB. Hell Orton has a 101 rating right now over 6 games.

CHI trying to buy talent because they can't develop it and the opposite looks to be true here in Denver. Too different approaches to buidling a team and I'm sure CHI fans are just happy to have a QB with raw natural talent.

Now his RZ Ints are a whole other matter and they havent' come to the realization yet that Cutler probably won't grow out of that unless he falls back into a game manger type and starts to throw the ball away more. That's all up to Jay to mature but I think he needs some tough love something Ron Turner will not provide in CHI

jhns
10-21-2009, 11:04 AM
I NEVER SAID THEY NEEDED TO WIN 10 GAMES IN FIVE GAMES PLAYED. Please pull your head out of your ass and stop making up bull**** to try and prove some incomprehensible point.

Orton hasn't turned the ball over. Cutler HAS. Cutler wouldn't need to make those game winning drives if he hadn't screwed the pooch earlier in the game with interceptions.

If Cutler throws two fewer picks in Green Bay, they win going away. He couldn't do it.

Why are you so stupid? Paint chips? Live under power lines? Mom drop you on your head?

So the only thing a QB has to do to win on any team in this league is not turn the ball over? Really? That is your argument?.....

Again, stop using the wins argument when it is impossible to say if he has or hasn't won more. He is winning right now. Orton didn't do any better than he has when he was there. We can't say if he will do better yet though. Pretty simple stuff.

Majik
10-21-2009, 11:06 AM
You want to know why you pay Cutler? They just traded their future for him and he is winning just as much in his first year their as Orton was winning in his 4th year their. This is only the start to. They could get a lot better as he learns to play with that offense. I would say I have already seen him get better. If he doesn't, they are screwed. At that point, I can be happy I am a Bronco fan.

That's fine and good if you want to go that route, but will he be able to match Orton's 11 wins as a rookie? I don't think so. Bears will finish 8-8 or 9-7 tops, they are 2 missed field goals away from being 1-4.

Meanwhile in his 1st year as broncos qb Orton is only 3 wins away from topping anything Cutler ever did here.

jhns
10-21-2009, 11:10 AM
That's fine and good if you want to go that route, but will he be able to match Orton's 11 wins as a rookie? I don't think so. Bears will finish 8-8 or 9-7 tops, they are 2 missed field goals away from being 1-4.

Meanwhile in his 1st year as broncos qb Orton is only 3 wins away from topping anything Cutler ever did here.

Then you should be real impressed if he does get 10 wins there.

Again, I have said it a thousand times in this thread now, Orton being here is a good thing. I'm not sure why that is being used as an argument against what I said....

DAN_BRONCO_FAN
10-21-2009, 11:12 AM
i really dont care any more about jay and chicago.
hes a ex bronco. we don't play Chicago, and if Chicago is happy with jay more power to them, its obvious now that jay didnt want to play here, and he got traded . now we are 6-0 so in the end it worked out for us .
so just let it go already. you made your point.
all the people who thought this year was going to be a disaster were wrong.
ok we get it already.

chex
10-21-2009, 11:13 AM
Let me simplify this again. How can you say he isn't going to win more than Orton after 5 games have been played? Orton didn't win 10 and Cutler has a great shot at it.....

I think Chicago had more in mind when they gave up all they did to get Cutler than to win one more game than Kyle Orton did.

Face it, the guy is labeled as a franchise QB for whatever reason, and you can't draw the finish line as just doing slightly better than Orton did. Not with the money he's getting and not for the package they gave up to get him. He was brought in to bring that franchise to another level, not just mildly improve over the previous QB. In other words, he's being paid to win division titles, playoff games, and Super Bowls. That's what franchise QB's do. Not, at the end of the season, compare passing yards and see who throws a prettier pass.

jhns
10-21-2009, 11:19 AM
I think Chicago had more in mind when they gave up all they did to get Cutler than to win one more game than Kyle Orton did.

Face it, the guy is labeled as a franchise QB for whatever reason, and you can't draw the finish line as just doing slightly better than Orton did. Not with the money he's getting and not for the package they gave up to get him. He was brought in to bring that franchise to another level, not just mildly improve over the previous QB. In other words, he's being paid to win division titles, playoff games, and Super Bowls. That's what franchise QB's do. Not, at the end of the season, compare passing yards and see who throws a prettier pass.

So what, they need to be on pace for 19-0 to justify this trade? You guys do realize SBs aren't won in September/October, right?

Did you all really get your feelings hurt that much that we can't discuss anything rationally now? It all has to be how horrible Cutler is, how great Orton is, and how wrong people were? We can't discuss anything using our brains anymore? It all is just going to keep going back to how butthurt you all are? Great! Maybe I will just take some stances that piss you all off again. If I can't have real discussions, why not just troll like all of you continually do?

TheElusiveKyleOrton
10-21-2009, 11:23 AM
you're pointless to discuss anything with. For one thing, you're impossible to understand with Cutler's sack in your mouth, and when you do actually make a point, it makes no sense and is based on something that nobody has said.

Ignored. Ahhhhh.

Mountain Bronco
10-21-2009, 11:25 AM
First off, that makes no sense when my argument was that Cutler is better for Chicago than Orton and Orton is good here. Second, who says Cutler turns the ball over that much if he was here? Third, those fumbles are not turnovers.

Because that is his MO. He is a risk taker thus he will always have TO.

TailgateNut
10-21-2009, 11:26 AM
you're pointless to discuss anything with. For one thing, you're impossible to understand with Cutler's sack in your mouth, and when you do actually make a point, it makes no sense and is based on something that nobody has said.

Ignored. Ahhhhh.

^this


He's the spoiled child who didn't get smacked in the mouth enough as a youngster.

Williams
10-21-2009, 11:26 AM
Check out the poll results here.

http://blogs.usatoday.com/gameon/2009/10/wednesday-eyeopener-1.html

:yayaya: Its great to be a Bronco fan.

Rigs11
10-21-2009, 11:27 AM
You do realize how easy 3000 yards is right? Even minus a game, average QBs throw that in their sleep. Those 5 fumblea are also not turnovers. In fact I know a couplke just fell to the ground under cutler as he fell on them. Yes, orton probably doesn't throw those picks. He also doesn't pick up the offense by himself and win some of those other games. Have you watched them at all this year? Do you really think Cutler can't reach 3000 yardsV why the comparison of pace then? I should be impressed that orton stopped playing good each season as the seasons progressed?

Again, Cutler is winning in Chicago just as much as Orton was. He has a worse run game, the same crappy o-line, and a far more injured and worse defense/special teams. I don't see how they signed the wrong guy.

So when Orton was in chicago the only reason he was winning was because of the defense and cutler was losing because of our defense? Now that the teams are reversed the only reason orton is still winning is because of our defense and Cutler is doing average is because of the bears defense?gotcha. Stop blowing cutler already. the guy has done absolutely nothing to warrant the franchise qb moniker.

baja
10-21-2009, 11:28 AM
Cutler would have gone full on pouty-emo the first time McD ripped him.

LOL That seems highly likely

jhns
10-21-2009, 11:29 AM
you're pointless to discuss anything with. For one thing, you're impossible to understand with Cutler's sack in your mouth, and when you do actually make a point, it makes no sense and is based on something that nobody has said.

Ignored. Ahhhhh.

Oh no, another one of the crying trolls is going to ignore me. My life is over...

Please though, everyone that is upset should put me on ignore. I can promise nothing is going to change in the way I post. I analyze and say what I really think. If that makes you upset, please just do us all a favor and put me on ignore.

TailgateNut
10-21-2009, 11:30 AM
LOL That seems highly likely

He's the Diva QB from the "Replacements". (I think that's the movie)

baja
10-21-2009, 11:30 AM
maybe... maybe... this is the Minnesota-Dallas-Herschel Walker trade all over again and we are in the role of Dallas. :)

This is what I've been saying too.

jhns
10-21-2009, 11:31 AM
So when Orton was in chicago the only reason he was winning was because of the defense and cutler was losing because of our defense? Now that the teams are reversed the only reason orton is still winning is because of our defense and Cutler is doing average is because of the bears defense?gotcha. Stop blowing cutler already. the guy has done absolutely nothing to warrant the franchise qb moniker.

Not one little bit of what you said was in my post. Get over Cutler. You aren't thinking clearly.

Garcia Bronco
10-21-2009, 11:31 AM
Cutler is a Red Zone Interception Machine. 7 over the past two seasons and th next closet QB has two. Kyle Orton has two for his whole career.

Rabb
10-21-2009, 11:31 AM
This message is hidden because jhns is on your ignore list (http://www.orangemane.com/BB/profile.php?do=ignorelist).

thank God, you really are the biggest douchebag on this board

TailgateNut
10-21-2009, 11:34 AM
thank God, you really are the biggest douchebag on this board

Give BF7 some credit, he's only two lenghts behind at the quarter turn.

Garcia Bronco
10-21-2009, 11:34 AM
He's the Diva QB from the "Replacements". (I think that's the movie)

Yep...Martel was the name.

Rabb
10-21-2009, 11:35 AM
Give BF7 some credit, he's only two lenghts behind at the quarter turn.

hahaha yes, the only thing that keeps this **** in the lead though is bf7 has at least admitted he was partially wrong kinda

TailgateNut
10-21-2009, 11:35 AM
Yep...Martel was the name.

anyone have a video. He does remind me of Cutler.
Aloof and the team can't stand his a$$.

baja
10-21-2009, 11:35 AM
Read YOUR posts. "He's winning just as much as Orton was." He was brought in to win MORE than Orton was. They didn't give up two first rounders and a third rounder to get the same quarterback they were replacing. You don't get that because you do love Cutler, and that's fine, you know, some people like Coldplay too.

What's wrong with Coldplay?

TailgateNut
10-21-2009, 11:36 AM
hahaha yes, the only thing that keeps this **** in the lead though is bf7 has at least admitted he was partially wrong kinda

:thanku:

Don't hold your breath on jhns EVER admitting a fault or flaw. His mom still tells him he's a perfect child.

Rabb
10-21-2009, 11:37 AM
What's wrong with Coldplay?

that's like saying, I am not gay...but my boyfriend is

lostknight
10-21-2009, 11:38 AM
Why would they have extended the wrong QB? Orton could never even get 3000 yards there. They never won when the defense was playing bad. Cutler had one bad game and has played very good since. He is also still winning just as much as Orton was while being new to the team. I think both teams are very happy with who they have. Chicago was never going anywhere with Orton and it doesn't really matter if that is ortons fault or the coaching.


To be fair, so far the offense on our team has yet to pull together a game that showcases them. The Defense has been carrying them so far.

chex
10-21-2009, 11:40 AM
So what, they need to be on pace for 19-0 to justify this trade?

Why not, Orton is. :sunshine:

Note, Cutler is being paid and pegged as a franchise QB because he is expected to win and win often. He HAS to crush Orton everywhere it counts to justify his hype/salary. Just being a little bit better isn't worth the price Chicago paid, nor does it make him as good as advertised. You wanna be known as a franchise QB? Then you better be up there with the Brady's and Manning's, and Brees' of the world. Cutler is clearly not, but he's not tying up our cap anymore thinking he is.

Having a rocket arm, or throwing pretty passes doesn't make you a franchise QB. You ain't **** in this league unless you win.

Williams
10-21-2009, 11:42 AM
Cutler is a Red Zone Interception Machine. 7 over the past two seasons and th next closet QB has two. Kyle Orton has two for his whole career.

Compared to 31 career red zone TDs. Orton is a Red Zone Touchdown Machine.

http://www.milehighreport.com/2009/10/19/1092348/ortons-redzone-numbers

jhns
10-21-2009, 11:43 AM
hahaha yes, the only thing that keeps this **** in the lead though is bf7 has at least admitted he was partially wrong kinda

I hope you really do have me on ignore becuase you are exactly what I am talking about with the butthurt crybabies. I have admitted to being wrong a lot on here. You didn't read it so it couldn't have happened though. I have said a million times, in this thread, that both teams won in the deal. To you crybabies, that is saying Cutler is God, Orton sucks, Denver is going to fail, I am never wrong, and we Orton can't throw. You see why I like your type putting me on ignore. You all act like I stole your wife and ate your children. Get a grip on life kids, this should be the last thing you are getting this upset about.

Garcia Bronco
10-21-2009, 11:45 AM
Why would they have extended the wrong QB? Orton could never even get 3000 yards there. They never won when the defense was playing bad. Cutler had one bad game and has played very good since. He is also still winning just as much as Orton was while being new to the team. I think both teams are very happy with who they have. Chicago was never going anywhere with Orton and it doesn't really matter if that is ortons fault or the coaching.

I also don't think Orton and Cutler are the ones responsible for the defenses and special teams play. Orton switched teams and now we are the ones getting return TDs. Is Orton a great special teams blocker or what? Cutler was on a team with the majority of the starting defense hurt here and now a lot of the stars of that defense are all getting hurt. Is that Cutlers fault? Our defense saw the fewest drives in the league, so it isn't Cutler putting them on the field a lot. Are his hard passes injuring everyone in practice or what? This is a team game and making arguments that it is all one player doing something is always going to sound dumb to me.


Cutler turns the ball often and consistently you can't blame that on special teams and the defense. As bad as our defense was last year Cutler hurt them by turning the ball over 7 times in redzone including his fumbles and the number should have been eight. He's not a good QB, and Orton out classes him in every statistic that matters.

Garcia Bronco
10-21-2009, 11:46 AM
Compared to 31 career red zone TDs. Orton is a Red Zone Touchdown Machine.

http://www.milehighreport.com/2009/10/19/1092348/ortons-redzone-numbers

And that was just red zone interceptions over the past 2 seasons. That doesn't include his two(should be 3) redzone fumbles lost.

Peoples Champ
10-21-2009, 11:47 AM
Why not, Orton is. :sunshine:

Note, Cutler is being paid and pegged as a franchise QB because he is expected to win and win often. He HAS to crush Orton everywhere it counts to justify his hype/salary. Just being a little bit better isn't worth the price Chicago paid, nor does it make him as good as advertised. You wanna be known as a franchise QB? Then you better be up there with the Brady's and Manning's, and Brees' of the world. Cutler is clearly not, but he's not tying up our cap anymore thinking he is.

Having a rocket arm, or throwing pretty passes doesn't make you a franchise QB. You ain't **** in this league unless you win.


I never thought about it this way. Cutler cannot just be a little better then Orton since they gave up so much for him. I like that.

Garcia Bronco
10-21-2009, 11:47 AM
Here's another reason it was great that we were able to dump him....he's got type 1 diabetes. Could he play until his 40's? Sure. Is it probable? It isn't.

DAN_BRONCO_FAN
10-21-2009, 11:48 AM
im sorry jay dump all of us for that cute lil thing in Illinois, and i know your heart is broken and your crying over that cheating lil slut jay, but its ok.
that orton fellow is lookin mighty fine these days.
so lets forget about that screaming lil b1tch jay, and give our new life partner orton some Bronco love
DENVER 6-0!!! <---enjoy it!

Garcia Bronco
10-21-2009, 11:49 AM
To be fair, so far the offense on our team has yet to pull together a game that showcases them. The Defense has been carrying them so far.

They carry each other

jhns
10-21-2009, 11:57 AM
Cutler turns the ball often and consistently you can't blame that on special teams and the defense. As bad as our defense was last year Cutler hurt them by turning the ball over 7 times in redzone including his fumbles and the number should have been eight. He's not a good QB, and Orton out classes him in every statistic that matters.

So you guys are serious that you think Chicago is 6-0 with Orton right now? There is no way it can be good for both teams?

Since we can't discuss anything anymore, I guess it is time to just troll like everyone else in the thread.

First off, how did Cutler hurt our defense? Our defense and special teams left Cutler with the 32nd ranked field position in the league. Our offense made up half the league in field position and gave the defense the 16th best. As for number of drives, our defense saw the fewest drives in the league last year and Chicago saw the most. That is 1 and 32, just to be clear. Could that be because Chicagos offense couldn't sustain any drives and continually put the defense back out there? Maybe.

So, is this going to continue because I will troll the Cutler Vs Orton argument all day.

jhns
10-21-2009, 11:58 AM
They carry each other

Now that there is a good joke.

HAT
10-21-2009, 12:01 PM
Give BF7 some credit, he's only two lenghts behind at the quarter turn.

I've got them along with rasta in a trifecta box. :pimp:

baja
10-21-2009, 12:02 PM
So you guys are serious that you think Chicago is 6-0 with Orton right now? There is no way it can be good for both teams?

Since we can't discuss anything anymore, I guess it is time to just troll like everyone else in the thread.

First off, how did Cutler hurt our defense? Our defense and special teams left Cutler with the 32nd ranked field position in the league. Our offense made up half the league in field position and gave the defense the 16th best. As for number of drives, our defense saw the fewest drives in the league last year and Chicago saw the most. That is 1 and 32, just to be clear. Could that be because Chicagos offense couldn't sustain any drives and continually put the defense back out there? Maybe.

So, is this going to continue because I will troll the Cutler Vs Orton argument all day.

The Broncos are 6 and 0 because of ownership and FO decisions and coaching. Orton is a product of our overall system.

Popcorn Sutton
10-21-2009, 12:03 PM
So you guys are serious that you think Chicago is 6-0 with Orton right now? There is no way it can be good for both teams?

Since we can't discuss anything anymore, I guess it is time to just troll like everyone else in the thread.

First off, how did Cutler hurt our defense? Our defense and special teams left Cutler with the 32nd ranked field position in the league. Our offense made up half the league in field position and gave the defense the 16th best. As for number of drives, our defense saw the fewest drives in the league last year and Chicago saw the most. That is 1 and 32, just to be clear. Could that be because Chicagos offense couldn't sustain any drives and continually put the defense back out there? Maybe.

So, is this going to continue because I will troll the Cutler Vs Orton argument all day.

Truer words have not been spoken.

TailgateNut
10-21-2009, 12:05 PM
i've got them along with rasta in a trifecta box. :pimp:

lol

DenverBrit
10-21-2009, 12:07 PM
I've got them along with rasta in a trifecta box. :pimp:

Throw Lex in there and you have a can't miss parlay!

jhns
10-21-2009, 12:07 PM
The Broncos are 6 and 0 because of ownership and FO decisions and coaching. Orton is a product of our overall system.
Oh I agree and have said so many times in this thread. All you crybabies just can't read. A lot of you are just to upset that I didn't like some moves this offseason. I have said the move was good for the Broncos a lot now. Some just carry to much e-baggage to care to actually read something.

Garcia Bronco
10-21-2009, 12:10 PM
Now that there is a good joke.

Do I really have to break it down like a fraction for you?

jhns
10-21-2009, 12:10 PM
Throw Lex in there and you have a can't miss parlay!

What is funny is everyone that just spoke on this is the same group that does nothing but troll all day. It is all about finding the next poster to attack. Discussing football isn't part of what you all do here. Amazing that you all think everyone else is the problem.

jhns
10-21-2009, 12:13 PM
Do I really have to break it down like a fraction for you?

Hey, orton can't even throw 3000 yards in a season. You will have to break down a lot of fractions to prove he is better than the guy that just threw 4550 yards and 25 TDs. Go ahead though. I want to see what a broken down fraction looks like.

DenverBrit
10-21-2009, 12:15 PM
What is funny is everyone that just spoke on this is the same group that does nothing but troll all day. It is all about finding the next poster to attack. Discussing football isn't part of what you all do here. Amazing that you all think everyone else is the problem.

No, you're the self-professed Troll!

I will troll the Cutler Vs Orton argument all day.

jhns
10-21-2009, 12:19 PM
No, you're the self-professed Troll!

Now I am. As long as you all continue to troll, I will give you what you ask for. This wasn't a cutler vs orton argument untill you trolls took over. You all then cry about the cutler vs orton argument. How dumb can you get?

Popcorn Sutton
10-21-2009, 12:20 PM
What is funny is everyone that just spoke on this is the same group that does nothing but troll all day. It is all about finding the next poster to attack. Discussing football isn't part of what you all do here. Amazing that you all think everyone else is the problem.

Who said that?

All that was said is that you, BF7 and Rasta are. Enjoy the company you keep.

jhns
10-21-2009, 12:25 PM
Who said that?

All that was said is that you, BF7 and Rasta are. Enjoy the company you keep.

Now that is a stud posting lineup there. You forgot lex though. I will let it slide since we established you cant/wont read before responding.

baja
10-21-2009, 12:28 PM
Oh I agree and have said so many times in this thread. All you crybabies just can't read. A lot of you are just to upset that I didn't like some moves this offseason. I have said the move was good for the Broncos a lot now. Some just carry to much e-baggage to care to actually read something.

Well you are long winded, inarticulate and juvenile so why should I read your every post.

BTW I'm no crybaby ;D

baja
10-21-2009, 12:29 PM
What is funny is everyone that just spoke on this is the same group that does nothing but troll all day. It is all about finding the next poster to attack. Discussing football isn't part of what you all do here. Amazing that you all think everyone else is the problem.

Ya we drew you name out of a hat.

Kaylore
10-21-2009, 12:30 PM
Which player is the "game manager" and which is the "franchise QB?"

Player 1: 124 of 194 63.9% 1,465 yards 9 TD 1 int
Player 2: 110 of 172 64.0% 1,201 yards 10 TD 7 int

jhns
10-21-2009, 12:31 PM
Well you are long winded, inarticulate and juvenile so why should I read your every post.

BTW I'm no crybaby ;D

Don't read my posts. If you don't, it would help if you didn't respond to the posts that you didn't read.

Rigs11
10-21-2009, 12:32 PM
Hey, orton can't even throw 3000 yards in a season. You will have to break down a lot of fractions to prove he is better than the guy that just threw 4550 yards and 25 TDs. Go ahead though. I want to see what a broken down fraction looks like.

((TD to Int ratio = Wins) > (passing yards))

baja
10-21-2009, 12:32 PM
Don't read my posts. If you don't, it would help if you didn't respond to the posts that you didn't read.

I promise I will never respond to a post that i didn't read. Geez

jhns
10-21-2009, 12:33 PM
Which player is the "game manager" and which is the "franchise QB?"

Player 1: 124 of 194 63.9% 1,465 yards 9 TD 1 int
Player 2: 110 of 172 64.0% 1,201 yards 10 TD 7 int

You should probably use the same sample size when trying to make a point. it really makes your argument weaker when you can't.

Gort
10-21-2009, 12:35 PM
Well you are long winded, inarticulate and juvenile so why should I read your every post.

for the same reason one watches a drunk person try to ride a bicycle. because you know EPIC FAIL is imminent, you just don't know how EPIC it will truly be.

http://failblog.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/fail-owned-bike-fail.jpg

TailgateNut
10-21-2009, 12:36 PM
Which player is the "game manager" and which is the "franchise QB?"

Player 1: 124 of 194 63.9% 1,465 yards 9 TD 1 int
Player 2: 110 of 172 64.0% 1,201 yards 10 TD 7 int

Don't confuse the children. It's not fair to toss out facts.

Garcia Bronco
10-21-2009, 12:37 PM
Hey, orton can't even throw 3000 yards in a season. You will have to break down a lot of fractions to prove he is better than the guy that just threw 4550 yards and 25 TDs. Go ahead though. I want to see what a broken down fraction looks like.

So by that logic Cutler is a better QB than John Elway. He isn't. And he's not better than Kyle Orton. The win-loss records prove it. However, this is about the defense and offense on the 2009 Broncos working together for wins instead of losses. That was my comment you quoted as a joke. This year we have two phases carrying each other to victory. It's not a one sided deal with the offense consistently over time putting a defense in bad situations and then conversely a defense consistently over time putting an offense in bad situations.

What does consistently over time really mean? A psychologist would tell you that's the definition of the word 'Behavior'.


So what is the behavior of the Broncos thus far? Smart football. By decreasing turnovers the offense has put the defense in postion to be successful everygame thus far in the 2009 season. And when the offense has failed the defense has stepped up, the converse is also true. You can look at the Cincy game and every other game besides the Raiders and Cleveland game and find this to be true.

Lastly, yards and TD's don't mean **** unless you win. Frankly, that sums up Jay Cutler. He's a barely a stat sheet with a floating .500 record. If he would just learn how to read a defense and not be so cocky with his arm...he might be a champion one day. Maybe. Orton on the other hand has lost what 7 games in his carreer as a starter? Cutler loses that many in a season. I'd bet good money that between the two, Orton will be a champion long before Cutler will be.

TailgateNut
10-21-2009, 12:37 PM
for the same reason one watches a drunk person try to ride a bicycle. because you know EPIC FAIL is imminent, you just don't know how EPIC it will truly be.

http://failblog.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/fail-owned-bike-fail.jpg


:thanku:

jhns
10-21-2009, 12:38 PM
((TD to Int ratio = Wins) > (passing yards))

It would have to be > yards + TDs.

Now why don't you prove this fact with some examples. I bet I can find a lot of guys that won with worse td/int ratios than some that lost a lot. Shoot, Brees is a top 3 qb and threw one less pick than Jay last year. If that means a QB sucks, I should stop seeing that he is such a great QB, right? We won't because it isn't true. Brees and Favre and many others that throw picks have been great in this league.

jhns
10-21-2009, 12:41 PM
So by that logic Cutler is a better QB than John Elway. He isn't. And he's not better than Kyle Orton. The win-loss records prove it. However, this is about the defense and offense on the 2009 Broncos working together for wins instead of losses. That was my comment you quoted as a joke. This year we have two phases carrying each other to victory. It's not a one sided deal with the offense consistently over time putting a defense in bad situations and then conversely a defense consistently over time putting an offense in bad situations.

What does consistently over time really mean? A psychologist would tell you that's the definition of the word 'Behavior'.


So what is the behavior of the Broncos thus far? Smart football. By decreasing turnovers the offense has put the defense in postion to be successful everygame thus far in the 2009 season. And when the offense has failed the defense has stepped up, the converse is also true. You can look at the Cincy game and every other game besides the Raiders and Cleveland game and find this to be true.

Lastly, yards and TD's don't mean **** unless you win. Frankly, that sums up Jay Cutler. He's a barely a stat sheet with a floating .500 record. If he would just learn how to read a defense and not be so cocky with his arm...he might be a champion one day. Maybe. Orton on the other hand has lost what 7 games in his carreer as a starter? Cutler loses that many in a season. I'd bet good money that between the two, Orton will be a champion long before Cutler will be.

Oh so now we are going to the argument that this is a one man sport that Orton dominates and Cutler just isn't able to cut it in.... Gotcha...

Kaylore
10-21-2009, 12:45 PM
You should probably use the same sample size when trying to make a point. it really makes your argument weaker when you can't.

Are you serious with this?

TheElusiveKyleOrton
10-21-2009, 12:45 PM
What's funny about jhns's posts is that they're all built around things that nobody said, and then when he gets put on ignore he thinks it's because "nobody can handle the incredible truth I bring!"

What a laugh.

If you pulled your head out of Cutler's ass for five minutes, you might see what's actually happening here.

Garcia Bronco
10-21-2009, 12:47 PM
Oh so now we are going to the argument that this is a one man sport that Orton dominates and Cutler just isn't able to cut it in.... Gotcha...


Hey, QB's touch the ball on just about every offensive play int he NFL.

I didn't think you would have an honest reply to my post you quoted. You gave up calling the offense and defense helping each other as a joke. Now you want to talk specfically about Orton and Cutler.

Sorry, while Cutler may have a better arm, and that it's, he's not a better QB upstairs than Orton.

He doesn't take care of the ball like Orton. Cutler has a league lead redzone turnover problem

And finally Cutler as a QB wins half to less than half of his games. You could probably count on one hand the number of weeks he's been above .500 in his 4 year NFL career.

jhns
10-21-2009, 12:51 PM
What's funny about jhns's posts is that they're all built around things that nobody said, and then when he gets put on ignore he thinks it's because "nobody can handle the incredible truth I bring!"

What a laugh.

If you pulled your head out of Cutler's ass for five minutes, you might see what's actually happening here.

What are you guys even going on about? What did I say, before saying I am just going to troll now, that has you all so upset? What is so wrong with saying both teams got who they want and are better off for it? How is that saying anything that you guys claim I am saying?

I don't care if you disagree, just disagree with what I am saying. Crying because of some stuff I said months ago, which has nothing to do with what I am saying, will make me glad you put me on ignore. I don't speak the truth, I speak what I think. You aren't missing much if you put me on ignore but eventually all you trolls putting me on ignore will help make the forum better for me.

TheReverend
10-21-2009, 12:52 PM
Which player is the "game manager" and which is the "franchise QB?"

Player 1: 124 of 194 63.9% 1,465 yards 9 TD 1 int
Player 2: 110 of 172 64.0% 1,201 yards 10 TD 7 int

Interesting so I went a bit deeper:

Orton

55.15% YAC

244 ypg

1.5 TD pg

7.6 ypa

INT on .5% of passes

Sacked on 4.4% of drop backs

41.8% conversion on 3rd down



Cutler

49% YAC

240.2 ypg

2 TD pg

7 ypa

INT on 4.07% of passes

Sacked on 5.5% of drop backs

38.8% conversion on 3rd down



---------------------------------



Honestly, both players are playing pretty well. Orton's YAC % through the first 4 weeks was alarming, but stellar play in week 5 and 6 are eliminating that concern.



Advantage:



http://www.pyromaniac.com/teams/images/denver-broncos/kyle-orton-stoned-medium.jpg

DenverBrit
10-21-2009, 12:52 PM
Are you serious with this?

I think he means you forgot Jay's five fumbles. ;D

Popps
10-21-2009, 12:53 PM
I don't see why everybody is so suprised. If you watched Orton at Purdue, you would have expected this. He's a good QB, especially in the "head on his shoulders" department, which is a hell of a lot more crucial than some people give it credit.
.

Listen to Rohirrim, folks.

Older, wiser.

jhns
10-21-2009, 12:56 PM
Are you serious with this?

Kinda, yes. Different sample sizes will show you different stuff. What if cutler throws 4 tds and no int next week? he will also have more yards and a good chance at a better comp percentage. Then again, he could fail and make it look better for Orton. You still aren't using the same number of games. Just showing it that way makes Cutler look far less productive than he has been.

Anyways, you weren't part of it so I will say I don't even believe half of what I'm saying now. People won't discuss stuff so I am just going to go on about how great Jay is. That at least makes the responses fun to read.

Kaylore
10-21-2009, 01:00 PM
Kinda, yes. Different sample sizes will show you different stuff. What if cutler throws 4 tds and no int next week? he will also have more yards and a good chance at a better comp percentage. Then again, he could fail and make it look better for Orton. You still aren't using the same number of games. Just showing it that way makes Cutler look far less productive than he has been.
It's one freaking game. And Orton actually checks to a run play unlike Cutler. I'm not even arguing Cutler sucks, I'm just pointing out that at the very least you have to admit their stats are comparable, and that severely skews the trade in our favor.

Anyways, you weren't part of it so I will say I don't even believe half of what I'm saying now. People won't discuss stuff so I am just going to go on about how great Jay is. That at least makes the responses fun to read.

Well at least you're honest. Carry on.

Popcorn Sutton
10-21-2009, 01:03 PM
:notworthy :notworthy

It was a sad day. It was the day I found out I was right about everything we have done. We looked like crap in every phase of the game. I know you think the team is great for winning but just wait. I actually understand what I see and this team is not winning very many games this season.

Chicago will win a lot more than this team with the player you all can't get over while saying it is impossible to win with him.

I do my part for the truce. I tell everyone what they should think so we can all be on the same page. The less intelligent people don't seem to listen.


Don't be mad that I speak the truth. Who cares if Cutler wants to be here? Since when was this about him being happy? You guys are to much into emotions here. F Cutler and McDaniels. The entire team can be a bunch of upset two year olds for all I care. Cutler did nothing to hurt the team. Far less than Marshall. Don't kid yourselves. This isn't the last of McDaniels and players haveing problems with each other.

That's classic right there LOL. Who cares about team chemistry?

I'm not real sure what people expect. Do you really think this team is going to be good when being run by someone so childish? I don't know how you can say jay would kill this team because he acts like a baby but then support a front office that acts the same way.

You don't give away your QB and start Orton and then expext to win. That is pretty dumb.

Well you have me convinced now. Orton sucks.

If that is really the excuse the only thing I can say is it shows orton has no idea what he is doing. You have to be able to feel the pocket and manipulate it as a QB. We have gone from one of the best in the league at this to what now looks to be one of the worst in the league. Great!

I will never understand this offseason.


We aren't winning with a system QB any time soon. You need a good defense, special teams, and run game for that. We aren't getting an established QB because nobody in this league is as dumb as mcdaniels. So that leaves us with drafting a QB. Say we get one that works out next offseason, we still will have some years of development. Otherwise we get to wait about that same time for our defense to turn into one of the best. This is assuming they can scout and develope talent.

I am still waiting to wake up and realize I have just been having a horrible nightmare.

I say the easiest way to cure all of these complaints is for everyone to hate mcdaniels. It would make the conversations on the forums go a lot better.
Do your part and make the forums a better place!

We gave away our QB for a crappy QB in a league that the QB is easily the most influential position. It isn't like we are close to being able to win with a system QB. You need a defense, special teams, and run game for that.

You see, some of us can use our brains and see that this front office is clueless. Some of us don't appreciate the front office trying to convince us we can't win with an immature QB when the front office acts just as immature. That is especially true when you look at the teams that won us our SBs. Pleanty of immaturity on them.

Don't worry. It will get much more positive as soon as mcd runs out of supporters and is run out of town.

You may think I have no clue what I am talking about but all I can say is try bringing my posts up in a year, we will see who knows what. You don't have to see them play games when they try this hard to be bad. This team does not stand a chance with this teams horrible decision making.

Another gem... LOL

There are so many more. I really do enjoy going back and seeing how jhns, broncofan7 and rasta have made complete asses of themselves.

chex
10-21-2009, 01:06 PM
It's one freaking game. And Orton actually checks to a run play unlike Cutler. I'm not even arguing Cutler sucks, I'm just pointing out that at the very least you have to admit their stats are comparable, and that severely skews the trade in our favor.




W/L record:
Orton - 6-0
Cutler - 3-2

Passing yards:
Orton - 1,465
Cutler - 1,201

Passer rating:
Orton - 100.1
Cutler - 86.9

Comp %:
Orton - 63.9
Cutler - 64.0

TD/Int
Orton - 9/1
Cutler - 10/7

Yards per game:
Orton - 244.2
Cutler - 240.2

Yards per attempt:
Orton - 7.6
Cutler - 7.0

BroncoBuff
10-21-2009, 01:06 PM
I don't know why we're even discussing this ... Orton has vastly outplayed Cutler thus far. The depth of statistical analysis some of you are delving into in an "effort" to prove that point is unnecessary.

There's no comparison, so why compare?

jhns
10-21-2009, 01:09 PM
:notworthy :notworthy








That's classic right there LOL. Who cares about team chemistry?












Another gem... LOL

There are so many more. I really do enjoy going back and seeing how jhns, broncofan7 and rasta have made complete asses of themselves.

In my defense, you have to read those in context to what was said. I say dumb things back to people that say dumb things to me. That usually consists of taking some arguments to the extreme.

Again though, you are only showing that you are all here trolling because you are all just butthurt about my opinions this offseason. I didn't say anything close to that stuff here when all of you trolls started popping up. It is fun to go back and read old posts and even throw them in peoples face every now and then. What exactly does that have to do with the fact that you are the ones trolling?

broncosteven
10-21-2009, 01:10 PM
It took until last Sunday night for me to set up shop in the Cutler is a bust camp.

The dude is Jeff George 2.0. Maybe he will get it but I don't think he will. I was glad he was gone after the PS started, just to cut ties and move on as a team but I still thought Cutler was a talented QB.

I was wrong. I hope the bears go down in flames and I will pay Telluride the $10 I owe him once I find him, there is no way da bears catch us.

BTW I have always said Orton was a solid QB and would be good for us as we rebuild.

Popcorn Sutton
10-21-2009, 01:12 PM
In my defense, you have to read those in context to what was said. I say dumb things back to people that say dumb things to me. That usually consists of taking some arguments to the extreme.

Again though, you are only showing that you are all here trolling because you are all just butthurt about my opinions this offseason. I didn't say anything close to that stuff here when all of you trolls started popping up. It is fun to go back and read old posts and even throw them in peoples face every now and then. What exactly does that have to do with the fact that you are the ones trolling?

True.

tsiguy96
10-21-2009, 01:13 PM
In my defense, you have to read those in context to what was said. I say dumb things back to people that say dumb things to me. That usually consists of taking some arguments to the extreme.

Again though, you are only showing that you are all here trolling because you are all just butthurt about my opinions this offseason. I didn't say anything close to that stuff here when all of you trolls started popping up. It is fun to go back and read old posts and even throw them in peoples face every now and then. What exactly does that have to do with the fact that you are the ones trolling?

what context do we need to see to know that you predicted absolute failure by everyone including mcd, and were absolutely wrong? all the bull**** you talked all summer has NO defense at all and you just wont admit you were wrong.

chex
10-21-2009, 01:14 PM
I don't know why we're even discussing this ... Orton has vastly outplayed Cutler thus far. The depth of statistical analysis some of you are delving into in an "effort" to prove that point is unnecessary.

There's no comparison, so why compare?

I agree, stats are for losers. I just posted that up there as a response. Wins are what count, thatís it. Iím just sealing off all exits in case the conversation goes past w/l and into a place where an argument of convenience could possibly be made.

Kaylore
10-21-2009, 01:15 PM
In my defense, you have to read those in context to what was said. I say dumb things back to people that say dumb things to me.

Well maybe that's not the best thing to do.

Popcorn Sutton
10-21-2009, 01:17 PM
Well maybe that's not the best thing to do.

:~ohyah!:

jhns
10-21-2009, 01:17 PM
what context do we need to see to know that you predicted absolute failure by everyone including mcd, and were absolutely wrong? all the bull**** you talked all summer has NO defense at all and you just wont admit you were wrong.

I have admitted to being wrong multiple times here. Everything I originally said in this thread is saying I was wrong from what brew quoted.

So again, what does any of this have to do with discussing stuff now? This makes it ok to troll? I can find dumb things said by every one of you. Does that mean we should all cry and troll from now on?

You constantly cry about everything. Get over it and grow up. I didn't think we made good moves this offseason. Why is that so offensive to you kids?

jhns
10-21-2009, 01:19 PM
Well maybe that's not the best thing to do.

Why not? Look at all the fun quotes I produce.

tsiguy96
10-21-2009, 01:22 PM
I have admitted to being wrong multiple times here. Everything I originally said in this thread is saying I was wrong from what brew quoted.

So again, what does any of this have to do with discussing stuff now? This makes it ok to troll? I can find dumb things said by every one of you. Does that mean we should all cry and troll from now on?

You constantly cry about everything. Get over it and grow up. I didn't think we made good moves this offseason. Why is that so offensive to you kids?

no, but it means you should begin to give credit to what we have on the field, who happen to be 6-0, instead of constantly whining about how much better wed be with cutler.

DenverBrit
10-21-2009, 01:22 PM
http://lauriekendrick.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/rodney_king.jpg http://www.blogcdn.com/www.joystiq.com/media/2007/09/catfighting.jpg

Popcorn Sutton
10-21-2009, 01:24 PM
Why not? Look at all the fun quotes I produce.

I still think you are a douche but that was kind of funny.

TonyR
10-21-2009, 01:25 PM
Shoot, Brees is a top 3 qb and threw one less pick than Jay last year.

jhns, what was NO's record last year? It would have been better if Brees turned the ball over less, no?

jhns
10-21-2009, 01:25 PM
no, but it means you should begin to give credit to what we have on the field, who happen to be 6-0, instead of constantly whining about how much better wed be with cutler.

What? I never even hinted that I think we would be better with Cutler when you trolls popped up. I have given much credit to this team. You don't see this stuff, and make up the other parts in your head because you are the little girl I keep saying you are.

LRtagger
10-21-2009, 01:27 PM
So the only thing a QB has to do to win on any team in this league is not turn the ball over?


Chicago's 3 wins - 1 INT

Chicago's 2 losses - 6 INTs

I bet if you went through the entire league and compared INT numbers in wins to INT numbers in losses the difference would be staggering.

It most certainly isn't the ONLY thing a QB has to do...but it is most certainly the MOST IMPORTANT.

Miss I.
10-21-2009, 01:27 PM
okay, this is a bit random, I found this video as I was looking for a phillip rivers crying video, but it made me think of the debate of Orton vs Cutler in the contest of Rivers vs Brees. Seems to me there is room for all these guys to succeed depending on playing to their strengths and minimizing their weaknesses and the interplay with their team. But the point is, Brees was seen as shorter and less talented than Phillip and SD took the cowards way out of the controversy by using his injury to justify his trade to NO. It worked out for both teams really, though my personal belief is Brees is clearly the better Quarterback, regarless of his size and atypical QB appearance.

<object width="560" height="340"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/g8QbaSgjq1I&hl=en&fs=1&color1=0xe1600f&color2=0xfebd01"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/g8QbaSgjq1I&hl=en&fs=1&color1=0xe1600f&color2=0xfebd01" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="560" height="340"></embed></object>

I dont know about you, but I would prefer the underestimated game leader in Drew Brees to the overly pouty Phillip Rivers (and one could have argued back then that Phlillip like Jay was the younger and one with more potential then the shorter, older Brees). I love Drew Brees by the way, admittedly more so now that he's not a Charger.

jhns
10-21-2009, 01:29 PM
jhns, what was NO's record last year? It would have been better if Brees turned the ball over less, no?

Do you think Brees is a good QB? How about Favre?

A better question would be how many games would they win if they had any defense at all. Yes turnovers kill. They aren't everything though. I can't study stats right now but I may break down all the playoff QBs from the past decade to swe how horrible turnovers really are. Maybe I will even prove myself wrong.

TonyR
10-21-2009, 01:33 PM
Do you think Brees is a good QB?

Yes, of course. And he's turning the ball over much less this year, and the Saints are winning more. Of course the defense is instrumental in this, but it's a safe bet that the defensive numbers wouldn't be as good if the O was turning the ball over more frequently.

TheReverend
10-21-2009, 01:34 PM
Yes, of course. And he's turning the ball over much less this year, and the Saints are winning more. Of course the defense is instrumental in this, but it's a saft bet that the defensive numbers wouldn't be as good if the O was turning the ball over more frequently.

And the O would be forcing more and turning it over more if the defensive weren't performing at this higher level. Symbiotic game. :thumbs:

BroncoBuff
10-21-2009, 01:35 PM
Kinda, yes. Different sample sizes will show you different stuff. You still aren't using the same number of games. Just showing it that way makes Cutler look far less productive than he has been..
You're right, I hadn't noticed that ... sad. The Jay-hate really is obsessive here, twisting stats to feed that obsession is not right ... :nono:

I agree with you, Jay is an excellent quarterback. I don't like the "franchise quarterback" tag because there's no definition of that term. But how about this definition: When numerous teams vie to throw 1st round picks and their own starter at you for your starter, then that guy is a franchise quarterback. By definition ;D

jhns
10-21-2009, 01:36 PM
You're right, I hadn't noticed that ... sad. The Jay-hate really is obsessive here, twisting stats to feed that obsession is not right ... :nono:

I agree. Really, I'm just responding because I realized I have 40 posts in this thread and want to set my record at 50. I'm pretty sure this is overtaking my old record of 10 posts in a single thread. Who cares though right? I'm not reaching 50 with posts people actually want to read though. That would make it pretty hard.

Rohirrim
10-21-2009, 01:37 PM
You're right, I hadn't noticed that ... sad. The Jay-hate really is obsessive here, twisting stats to feed that obsession is not right ... :nono:

I agree with you, Jay is an excellent quarterback. I don't like the "franchise quarterback" tag because there's no definition of that term. But how about this definition: When numerous teams vie to throw 1st round picks and their own starter at you for your starter, then that guy is a franchise quarterback. By definition ;D

Naw, that's not it. Try this one (that would fit Elway's career): He is a player who can throw a mediocre team on his back and carry them to the SB. :thumbsup:

HEAV
10-21-2009, 01:45 PM
Which player is the "game manager" and which is the "franchise QB?"

Player 1: 124 of 194 63.9% 1,465 yards 9 TD 1 int
Player 2: 110 of 172 64.0% 1,201 yards 10 TD 7 int

So going off those numbers divide Orton by 6 games and Cutler by 5 games (bears) had a bye.

Then multiply those averages by 16 games..

Hmmm.....

Orton could have 24 TD's 3904 yards and 3 Int's

Cutler Coud have 32 TD's 3904 yards and 22 Int's

So do a possible 8 TD's outwieght 19 Int's?

Also where are those Int's? Redzone? Inside teams own 20....

Orton is a franchise QB to a team.

Cutler is a franchise QB to a fan base that hasn't had one in decades.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
10-21-2009, 02:04 PM
Naw, that's not it. Try this one (that would fit Elway's career): He is a player who can throw a mediocre team on his back and carry them to the SB. :thumbsup:

Put it in the truck, Jim!

That's the definition right there. Done. Debate over.

TonyR
10-21-2009, 02:06 PM
And the O would be forcing more and turning it over more if the defensive weren't performing at this higher level. Symbiotic game.

To an extent. But turnovers lead directly to losing. You turn the ball over 3 or more times you're almost always going to lose. Bad defense does not lead directly to more turnovers. Yes, in the long run you'll have more turnovers if you have a bad defense because in theory you'll be forced to take more chances. But it's bad decisions and bad execution that leads directly to turnovers, not the bad defense.

TonyR
10-21-2009, 02:07 PM
That's the definition right there. Done. Debate over.

Agree 100%. Buff's defintion is exactly where some people are missing the point on this issue. Just because a lot of teams see potential in a player does not in any way make that player a "franchise player".

jhns
10-21-2009, 02:11 PM
Agree 100%. Buff's defintion is exactly where some people are missing the point on this issue. Just because a lot of team's see potential in a player does not in any way make that player a "franchise player".

If you go by what teams and the media call a franchise player then it does. Franchise players don't even have to be good. The team is just screwed if they aren't. Everyone in the league or media that I hear use that term is talking about a player the franchise believes in and wants to build around. Their actual skill has never had much to do with who is called a franchise QB.

TonyR
10-21-2009, 02:18 PM
If you go by what teams and the media call a franchise player then it does. Franchise players don't even have to be good.

You're making the distinction between a nominal franchise player and an actual franchise player.

BroncoBuff
10-21-2009, 03:08 PM
Just because a lot of team's see potential in a player does not in any way make that player a "franchise player".
Dude, there is no definition of "franchise quarterback." Can't you see that? Arguing it's definition merely to massage your Jay-hate is pretty weak.

And, for the umpteenth time, please listen: This site, this little Orange island of delusion, is the only place on planet Earth where Jay is not a franchise quarterback. On some level you must understand that. If not, try to get out of the house more ... If you can't do that, just watch ESPN and NFLN, they'll help you.

OABB
10-21-2009, 04:00 PM
Dude, there is no definition of "franchise quarterback." Can't you see that? Arguing it's definition merely to massage your Jay-hate is pretty weak.

And, for the umpteenth time, please listen: This site, this little Orange island of delusion, is the only place on planet Earth where Jay is not a franchise quarterback. On some level you must understand that. If not, try to get out of the house more ... If you can't do that, just watch ESPN and NFLN, they'll help you.

here and anywhere else where people watch, and understand the gaem of football.

At this point he is not...

he may be, can be, and probably will be if he gets his head out of his ass, but as of right now, he is not.

A franchise QB should at least be .500 and not be a cause to a loss.

the bears one loss this year- mr. franchise had 4 pics.


edit;he had anoth rz pic this past week in his second loss

TonyR
10-21-2009, 04:26 PM
And you're an idiot.

These recent posts are problematic on so many levels I don't even know where to begin.

First, you are the king of hypocrites and this post seals it. You go on and on about how we should be civil and not attack people and here you are attacking me. So congrats on cementing your status as a hypocrite.

Second, what I said was 100% correct. There is a distinction between a nominal "franchise player" and a real "franchise player". Most people here are smart enough to know which is which and which one matters. You, apparently, are not.

Third, you're all over people for "hating" on Jay Cutler while yourself making a fool of yourself running around defending him at every turn. You're telling "us" to get over it while it's very clear who isn't over it.

Fourth, there are multiple people on multiple threads telling you what an idiot or you are, even today, and yet you choose to call me out about it. Very few people agree with you on this topic and yet somehow I'm the idiot. Most posters here are "hating" on your boy. Why am I the bad guy here?

Fifth, you telling me to get out and get a life is rich. Didn't you once do a thread discussing how you had no life? Or was that all in jest?

Buff, stop taking this stuff so personally. Some of us love the team more than Jay Cutler. Some of us don't feel the need to constantly defend a player who's no longer on the team. And you yourself said just today that Orton has outperformed your boyfriend. Usually you're a rational poster with some good things to say but lately you've been all over the place and a bit incoherent on some things. I think this is a topic you should stay away from because you clearly can't speak intelligently on it. The wound is too fresh with you.

BroncoBuff
10-21-2009, 05:19 PM
there are multiple people on multiple threads telling you what an idiot or you are, Very few people agree with you on this topic.

Maybe "very few" people agree here, but 99% of people elsewhere agree with me.

What part of two #1 picks don't you understand?

That's my point!

OABB
10-21-2009, 05:19 PM
Maybe "very few" people agree here, that's the problem.

99% of people elsewhere agree with me.

What part of two #1 picks don't you understand?

That's my point!

99% agreed with watermock just 6 weeks ago too....just because people agree doesn't make them right.

BroncoBuff
10-21-2009, 05:29 PM
What I said was 100% correct. There is a distinction between a nominal "franchise player" and a real "franchise player". Most people here are smart enough to know which is which and which one matters. You, apparently, are not.
You didn't even read my post I guess, so pay attention now: THERE IS NO DEFINITION FOR THAT TERM, we're just arguing in circles. Rohirrim offered his definition, I offered mine. We're both too smart to pretend were "100% correct" on a topic for which there is no correct answer.

Trust me, if the term 'smart' applied to you, you would agree with what I've said here. And don't call out my intelligence, don't tell me I'm "not smart enough" ... sorry I called you an idiot, but I got 152 reasons why you're a child next to me.


You telling me to get out and get a life is rich. Didn't you once do a thread discussing how you had no life?
Well, I made a tongue-in-cheek thread about a "mid-life crisis." So you're close (at least for you), because the word "life" was in it.


Buff, stop taking this stuff so personally. Some of us love the team more than Jay Cutler. Some of us don't feel the need to constantly defend a player who's no longer on the team. And you yourself said just today that Orton has outperformed your boyfriend.Orton has definitely outperformed my boyfriend ... he's outperformed all but 2 or 3 quarterbacks in the league.

I'll grant you it appears I'm mostly defending Jay, and I do still like Jay, but there is another element to all this: I'm also being a devil's advocate for reality. As I've said about a zillion times, only on this website, only on the little orange island of delusion, is Jay not an excellent quarterback. I hate this "pack vs. reality" mentality here that apparently believes if we get enough people together who think Jay sucks - or that the sun rises in the west - then it must be true. It's NOT true. If you think Jay sucks, you're just wrong. Jay is an excellent quarterback. A top10/15 quarterback. You can disagree with that ranking, that's fine of course. But don't pretend it's a factual point with which we all must agree.

And don't pretend you'll find much if any agreement away from this site for such an idea. The near-unanimous opinion of coaches, GMs, players and professionals is that Jay = Kyle plus two 1st-rounders.


I feel kinda dirty having to explain all this. Yet again. Let's just enjoy this incredible ride, and stop the delusional Jay-bashing ... it makes us look dumb.

theAPAOps5
10-21-2009, 05:42 PM
These recent posts are problematic on so many levels I don't even know where to begin.

First, you are the king of hypocrites and this post seals it. You go on and on about how we should be civil and not attack people and here you are attacking me. So congrats on cementing your status as a hypocrite.

Second, what I said was 100% correct. There is a distinction between a nominal "franchise player" and a real "franchise player". Most people here are smart enough to know which is which and which one matters. You, apparently, are not.

Third, you're all over people for "hating" on Jay Cutler while yourself making a fool of yourself running around defending him at every turn. You're telling "us" to get over it while it's very clear who isn't over it.

Fourth, there are multiple people on multiple threads telling you what an idiot or you are, even today, and yet you choose to call me out about it. Very few people agree with you on this topic and yet somehow I'm the idiot. Most posters here are "hating" on your boy. Why am I the bad guy here?

Fifth, you telling me to get out and get a life is rich. Didn't you once do a thread discussing how you had no life? Or was that all in jest?

Buff, stop taking this stuff so personally. Some of us love the team more than Jay Cutler. Some of us don't feel the need to constantly defend a player who's no longer on the team. And you yourself said just today that Orton has outperformed your boyfriend. Usually you're a rational poster with some good things to say but lately you've been all over the place and a bit incoherent on some things. I think this is a topic you should stay away from because you clearly can't speak intelligently on it. The wound is too fresh with you.

Nice job!

TonyR
10-21-2009, 06:20 PM
Trust me, if the term 'smart' applied to you...
...but I got 152 reasons why you're a child next to me.
So you're close (at least for you)


Three more personal attacks. Well played.


Orton has definitely outperformed my boyfriend ... he's outperformed all but 2 or 3 quarterbacks in the league.

He's actually the 8th rated QB, but okay.


I hate this "pack vs. reality" mentality here that apparently believes if we get enough people together who think Jay sucks ... then it must be true. It's NOT true. If you think Jay sucks, you're just wrong. Jay is an excellent quarterback. A top10/15 quarterback. You can disagree with that ranking, that's fine of course. But don't pretend it's a factual point with which we all must agree.


I don't know that I've ever said Jay "sucks". I'm well aware that he's a good player. I think most of us dislike him and don't mind expressing it. I don't know why this bothers you so much.

And one final point: you flamed me for agreeing with a post, so by calling me an idiot for doing so you're also calling the poster I agreed with an idiot. Again, well played.

BroncoBuff
10-21-2009, 06:23 PM
Three more personal attacks. Well played.

And one final point: you flamed me for agreeing with a post, so by calling me an idiot for doing so you're also calling the poster I agreed with an idiot. Again, well played.

Yeah sorry, I don't like personal attacks.

And whadd'ya mean flamed?

colonelbeef
10-21-2009, 06:57 PM
When are Bears fans going to learn that it's their coaching staff that needs changed? The Bears can trade and sign every al-pro in the league but the coaching staff wouldn't know what to do with them.

yep.

Lovie needs to go, he has maxed out with that team. They need someone who knows how to coach an offense. Their OL, and the left side in particular, is atrocious

BroncoBuff
10-21-2009, 08:21 PM
Everyone in the league or media that I hear use that term is talking about a player the franchise believes in and wants to build around. Their actual skill has never had much to do with who is called a franchise QB.

That's right ... it's not a precise definition, but that's the standard usage :thumbs:

Eldorado
10-21-2009, 08:27 PM
Maybe "very few" people agree here, but 99% of people elsewhere agree with me.

What part of two #1 picks don't you understand?

That's my point!

I know dude. We raped them.

TonyR
10-21-2009, 08:34 PM
Maybe "very few" people agree here, but 99% of people elsewhere agree with me.


99% is probably just a little off. And by "a little" I mean a lot. Did you happen to see this poll (linked below)? Not scientific, but more so than your silly statistic...

http://blogs.usatoday.com/gameon/2009/10/wednesday-eyeopener-1.html

azbroncfan
10-21-2009, 08:35 PM
Here's another reason it was great that we were able to dump him....he's got type 1 diabetes. Could he play until his 40's? Sure. Is it probable? It isn't.

Yep and if he didn't pass through 15 coors lights the night before the game he probably could play to 40 but the booze and diabetes will doom this guy.

azbroncfan
10-21-2009, 08:38 PM
You should probably use the same sample size when trying to make a point. it really makes your argument weaker when you can't.

What would that be comparing win/loss record because isn't that is all that matters anyways. If we threw Elways stats up here and compared them to these two we would puke but I doubt anyone here would take Orton/Cutler over him.

Circle Orange
10-21-2009, 08:42 PM
[QUOTE=Miss I.;2611588]It worked out for both teams really, though my personal belief is Brees is clearly the better Quarterback, regarless of his size and atypical QB appearance.

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Ah, that must be a reference to Drew's unusual facial birthmark. But, not to worry...it's better than Phillips "milk of magnesia" moon face and bubble cheeks. dude's face is like, two feet wide.

Oh, and Cutler? Overrated.

(see source files on Jamarcus Russell, Kyle Boller, Michael Vick, and Vince Young for "cannon arms with mobility" going nowhere in a hurry.)

BroncoBuff
10-21-2009, 08:44 PM
99% is probably just a little off. And by "a little" I mean a lot. Did you happen to see this poll (linked below)? Not scientific, but more so than your silly statistic...

http://blogs.usatoday.com/gameon/2009/10/wednesday-eyeopener-1.html
That's interesting ... 1400 votes in a national poll. Results are partly because we're winning, but nobody can deny who's been the better quarterback this year. We might be winning with defense, but Orton has still outplayed Jay. Never said otherwise.

The only way this ends well for everyone is if Shanahan goes to Chicago, and then a Super Bowl down the line ... don't laugh, in 1991 nobody would've ever guessed Elway+Shanahan vs. Reeves in the Super Bowl ...

azbroncfan
10-21-2009, 08:48 PM
It would have to be > yards + TDs.

Now why don't you prove this fact with some examples. I bet I can find a lot of guys that won with worse td/int ratios than some that lost a lot. Shoot, Brees is a top 3 qb and threw one less pick than Jay last year. If that means a QB sucks, I should stop seeing that he is such a great QB, right? We won't because it isn't true. Brees and Favre and many others that throw picks have been great in this league.

Why don't you compare Brees, Favre and you fluff job boy's redzone decision making? Jay is the king between the 20's and is a guy that at least looks good losing. What is Jay's record in Playoff clinching games to since you love your stats?

BroncoBuff
10-21-2009, 08:49 PM
It worked out for both teams really, though my personal belief is Brees is clearly the better Quarterback, regarless of his size and atypical QB appearance.

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I'd rather have Brees, but only because Rivers is such a hick rube.

Talent-wise, Brees has just a slight edge.

Bronco Yoda
10-21-2009, 08:53 PM
Ok, should I feel dirty for pointing to this...
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/227222-what-is-a-franchise-quarterback-exactly

BroncoBuff
10-21-2009, 09:26 PM
Ok, should I feel dirty for pointing to this...
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/227222-what-is-a-franchise-quarterback-exactly

Their definition (I don't agree, but): "The player must match certain criteria to be considered a franchise quarterback: consistency, talent, leadership/maturity, and football intelligence."

Jay's very good in two categories, but his leadership/maturity is low right now. He's young, but he's not that young, he needs to grow up. His football intelligence is pretty good, but it breaks down in the red zone.

Still, that's an incomplete definition. Mike Vick was definitely a franchise quarterback, and yet he falls short in several of those categories. In fact, the Mike Vick example is exactly why MY definition of franchise quarterback is better: "The quarterback a team pays big money, and builds its team around."

Br0nc0Buster
10-21-2009, 10:22 PM
Their definition (I don't agree, but): "The player must match certain criteria to be considered a franchise quarterback: consistency, talent, leadership/maturity, and football intelligence."

Jay's very good in two categories, but his leadership/maturity is low right now. He's young, but he's not that young, he needs to grow up. His football intelligence is pretty good, but it breaks down in the red zone.

Still, that's an incomplete definition. Mike Vick was definitely a franchise quarterback, and yet he falls short in several of those categories. In fact, the Mike Vick example is exactly why MY definition of franchise quarterback is better: "The quarterback a team pays big money, and builds its team around."

Yeah and Mike Vick sucked
But then again you were the one crying about Orton playing over Chris Simms

Perhaps you arent as knowledgeable about what constitutes a good quarterback as you think you are?

baja
10-21-2009, 10:26 PM
Their definition (I don't agree, but): "The player must match certain criteria to be considered a franchise quarterback: consistency, talent, leadership/maturity, and football intelligence."

Jay's very good in two categories, but his leadership/maturity is low right now. He's young, but he's not that young, he needs to grow up. His football intelligence is pretty good, but it breaks down in the red zone.

Still, that's an incomplete definition. Mike Vick was definitely a franchise quarterback, and yet he falls short in several of those categories. In fact, the Mike Vick example is exactly why MY definition of franchise quarterback is better: "The quarterback a team pays big money, and builds its team around."

Serious question Buff. Would you like it if today we had Cutler and the chance to built a team around him?

baja
10-21-2009, 10:27 PM
Yeah and Mike Vick sucked
But then again you were the one crying about Orton playing over Chris Simms

Perhaps you arent as knowledgeable about what constitutes a good quarterback as you think you are?

Now there's a "Gottcha"

bombay
10-21-2009, 10:30 PM
That's interesting ... 1400 votes in a national poll. Results are partly because we're winning, but nobody can deny who's been the better quarterback this year. We might be winning with defense, but Orton has still outplayed Jay. Never said otherwise.

The only way this ends well for everyone is if Shanahan goes to Chicago, and then a Super Bowl down the line ... don't laugh, in 1991 nobody would've ever guessed Elway+Shanahan vs. Reeves in the Super Bowl ...

It's ending well for everyone who matters right now.

What Mike Shanahan does is of no consequence to Broncos fans unless it eases the financial burden on Mr Bowlen.

Although I think he's an ok guy and hope that his career is enhanced in Dallas.

maher_tyler
10-21-2009, 10:32 PM
[QUOTE=jhns;2611094]First off, try proving Knox isn't a product of Cutler. He goes there and suddenly their receivers(including ones already there) can play. Orton comes here and guys like Royal fall off....

Ahhhh...McD has stated that there isn't one go to guy..if he's open, he'll get the ball. Royal hasn't fallen off!! In this offense the ball gets spread around so its less predicable. Where have you been the past 6 weeks plus?!?!

wandlc
10-21-2009, 10:44 PM
Couple problems with that statement. First, the acquisition of a "FRANCHISE QUARTERBACK" was supposed to make a SIGNIFICANT difference for that franchise. Period. He wasn't brought in to win the same amount of games. He was brought in to win MORE games. Not sure why that's so hard to see.

Second, Orton is winning MORE in Denver than Cutler was. With a similar supporting cast, that same offensive line and receivers. The difference? Why, turnovers, of course!

Do you even know or watch football, the difference is Defense, period. This so called high scoring offense is scoring fewer points per game than last year and the defense is allowing 11 pts per game this year vs 28 pts per game last year. So it is the QB who is winning games. Good logic.

TheReverend
10-21-2009, 10:45 PM
Serious question Buff. Would you like it if today we had Cutler and the chance to built a team around him?

Been very impressed with Kyle's last two games, but, yes, I still would (serious)

bombay
10-21-2009, 10:46 PM
It's beginning to appear that coaches who spend more than a season or two out of the league are becoming instantly obsolete. Is there really a market for Cowher now? Shottenheimer? If Shanahan doesn't take a relevent (Dallas, Washington) job pretty quickly does he remain desirable? Billick? Holmgren? After Shanahan's remarks to Sandy Clough about his skepticism over cutler's off the field and clubhouse behavior, he'll never put himself in a situation to be coaching him again. It's beginning to look more and more like a young man's game, and these vets need to get back in quickly or give it up.

TheReverend
10-21-2009, 10:48 PM
It's beginning to appear that coaches who spend more than a season or two out of the league are becoming instantly obsolete. Is there really a market for Cowher now? Shottenheimer? If Shanahan doesn't take a relevent (Dallas, Washington) job pretty quickly does he remain desirable? Billick? Holmgren? After Shanahan's remarks to Sandy Clough about his skepticism over cutler's off the field and clubhouse behavior, he'll never put himself in a situation to be coaching him again. It's beginning to look more and more like a young man's game, and these vets need to get back in quickly or give it up.

Rings, and the hunt for them, never lose their allure (recent reference: Parcells, Gibbs)

Spider
10-21-2009, 10:51 PM
Do you even know or watch football, the difference is Defense, period. This so called high scoring offense is scoring fewer points per game than last year and the defense is allowing 11 pts per game this year vs 28 pts per game last year. So it is the QB who is winning games. Good logic.

the QB is the general ,I love defense and 3 yards could of dust offense ,but the qb has to take care of business on his end , by that I mean making good decisions , reading the D making an audible out of a play that wont work .... reading the blitz etc .......

baja
10-21-2009, 11:07 PM
It's beginning to appear that coaches who spend more than a season or two out of the league are becoming instantly obsolete. Is there really a market for Cowher now? Shottenheimer? If Shanahan doesn't take a relevent (Dallas, Washington) job pretty quickly does he remain desirable? Billick? Holmgren?<b> After Shanahan's remarks to Sandy Clough about his skepticism over cutler's off the field and clubhouse behavior,</b> he'll never put himself in a situation to be coaching him again. It's beginning to look more and more like a young man's game, and these vets need to get back in quickly or give it up.

What story? You got a link?

hambone13
10-21-2009, 11:58 PM
http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/facepalm.jpg

What part of this do you not understand? They're 3-2. They could have been 3-2 with Orton. They were supposed to be a Super Bowl contender, and it was BECAUSE of the acquisition of Cutler.

I'm not sure how you could be any dumber.

No reasonably educated football fan ever said they were going to be a Superbowl Contender this year with their O-Line and receiver corps. What everyone's said, is, "Chicago hasn't had a talented QB since....uh, Sid Luftman-sharlzberg"

Miss I.
10-22-2009, 12:06 AM
I'd rather have Brees, but only because Rivers is such a hick rube.

Talent-wise, Brees has just a slight edge.

As a QB, I think Brees has a huge edge over Phillip. Talent wise maybe Phillip does, I dont know, but he irritates me with his immaturity actually. And the thing I find fascinating about Brees (and Kurt Warner actually) is that he has been successful with 2 different franchises. I like the idea of when Brees job in San Diego was challenged he stepped up and fought for it and finally got traded or whatever because of an injury, not because he gave up on the job. He's dogged and he seems to be a decent guy off field. He managed to lead the Chargers without being a douchebag. And now he, along with the help of a good coach and good supporting players on both sides of the ball, is taking a franchise not exactly overrun with success and helping them become so. Personally, I think Phillip just inherited a lot of stuff from San Diego that was already built before he got there. Doesnt make him any less talented, just not my taste in QB.

Having said that, given the choice between Cutler and Rivers who do you choose? When he was my QB, definitely Jay (it's a loyalty thing), but now, I am not so sure.

If it comes down to Orton or Cutler, I think I choose Orton, only because I feel he's fitting our system well right now and I don't really feel like messing with a forumula that's working. I like Jay's talents, but I don't like Jay for pretty much the same reasons I don't like Phillip.

BroncoMan4ever
10-22-2009, 12:07 AM
I also don't think Orton and Cutler are the ones responsible for the defenses and special teams play

so you don't think Cutler giving the opposition short fields with his 20 turnovers didn't hurt the defense and make it harder to limit opponents scoring?

i think Orton simply not turning the ball over is a major help to the defense, and upgraded us as a team

BroncoMan4ever
10-22-2009, 12:13 AM
No reasonably educated football fan ever said they were going to be a Superbowl Contender this year with their O-Line and receiver corps. What everyone's said, is, "Chicago hasn't had a talented QB since....uh, Sid Luftman-sharlzberg"

everyone had the attitude of, they were winning despite Orton and were a strong team in the NFC because of the defense. so many said that a great QB made the receivers better and not great receivers making the QB better.

people basically made it out to be that the moment Cutler landed in Chicago that that team became the team to beat in the NFC. 3-2 is not what Chicago traded 2-1st round picks, a 3rd and Orton for.

tsiguy96
10-22-2009, 12:19 AM
everyone had the attitude of, they were winning despite Orton and were a strong team in the NFC because of the defense. so many said that a great QB made the receivers better and not great receivers making the QB better.

people basically made it out to be that the moment Cutler landed in Chicago that that team became the team to beat in the NFC. 3-2 is not what Chicago traded 2-1st round picks, a 3rd and Orton for.

its crazy the phenomenon that happens, orton gets zero credit for winning games, its always everyone else around him, but cutler gets ALL the credit for winning and all the excuses for why he lost, never his fault...

BroncoBuff
10-22-2009, 12:25 AM
Yeah and Mike Vick sucked
But then again you were the one crying about Orton playing over Chris Simms
I stand by that ... in context. Kyle was pretty bad in preseason, you must remember that. Even after the opener in Cincy, there were several threads wanting to bench him. Plus I happen to like Chris Simms, but all that Simms stuff went out the back door after the Cleveland game.


Perhaps you arent as knowledgeable about what constitutes a good quarterback as you think you are?
How very hostile of you, thank you very little ;D

Actually, no, I never said I was knowledgable about that, in fact I've always said I am NOT an expert, but that I "trust the experts."


Serious question Buff. Would you like it if today we had Cutler and the chance to built a team around him?
Of course not ... it would be foolish to propose such a thing right now. Kyle Orton is playing at a Pro Bowl level, and the team is clicking like no Broncos team since 1998.

The thing about Orton is that this doesn't seem like an anomaly, it doesn't seem like a fluke. This is who he is. You're no gripping on every snap ... you get the distinct impression this low-mistake efficiency will continue unabated. He seems comfortable as a system quarterback in a way Jay could never be. Never.

I still like Jay, a lot, but he would not have been right for this team.



But seriously baja, don't you have Hurricane Rick to prepare for? Surely my appalling loyalty to Jay cannot be as important as that ???

BroncoMan4ever
10-22-2009, 12:33 AM
its crazy the phenomenon that happens, orton gets zero credit for winning games, its always everyone else around him, but cutler gets ALL the credit for winning and all the excuses for why he lost, never his fault...

the guy can't even get credit when it is due here in Denver. fans should have been swinging from his nuts after the NE game with the awesome 2 late 90 yard drives for TDs that got us to overtime and then another good drive in OT for the win yet very few seemed to care. all a lot of people continued to say was the defense was great(which it is not taking anything away from it) and disregard Orton.

and then a week later Cutler has a couple long drives for Chicago that yielded 1 TD and 1 INT and more Broncos fans were giving him love for that performance in a loss saying it was mistakes and penalties that destroyed him, while Orton won because the defense was awesome

it is such bull****.

Br0nc0Buster
10-22-2009, 07:14 AM
I stand by that ... in context. Kyle was pretty bad in preseason, you must remember that. Even after the opener in Cincy, there were several threads wanting to bench him. Plus I happen to like Chris Simms, but all that Simms stuff went out the back door after the Cleveland game.



How very hostile of you, thank you very little ;D

Actually, no, I never said I was knowledgable about that, in fact I've always said I am NOT an expert, but that I "trust the experts."



Of course not ... it would be foolish to propose such a thing right now. Kyle Orton is playing at a Pro Bowl level, and the team is clicking like no Broncos team since 1998.

The thing about Orton is that this doesn't seem like an anomaly, it doesn't seem like a fluke. This is who he is. You're no gripping on every snap ... you get the distinct impression this low-mistake efficiency will continue unabated. He seems comfortable as a system quarterback in a way Jay could never be. Never.

I still like Jay, a lot, but he would not have been right for this team.



But seriously baja, don't you have Hurricane Rick to prepare for? Surely my appalling loyalty to Jay cannot be as important as that ???

Kyle had played before though
And he had played well in chicago
It was a new system, his first games, it is OK to not be Tom Brady right off the bat
Again I tried to tell you how meaningless preseason was

Ok now to Cutler
When you say "experts", are these the same experts who all agreed Reggie Bush was the next Barry Sanders?
Or that Vince Young was worth a top 5 draft pick?
Or the same experts who said this team would be lucky to win 5 games this year?

Cutler was overhyped because of his arm and his ability to make big plays.
When all you see is his sportscenter highlights throwing lasers and running around you would think he was actually elite if you didnt actually watch the game and see his interceptions into triple coverage, etc..

Did these experts see every snap of Cutlers career in Denver like most Denver fans?

I am not sure which "experts" you are referring to, but pretty much all of the media looks like a giant bag of fail after trashing the Broncos all offseason
Not exactly why their opinions should be held to such high regard

Again you let your own biases affect your ability to objectively judge Orton and Simms, you are doing the same thing with Jay

TailgateNut
10-22-2009, 07:21 AM
I stand by that ... in context. Kyle was pretty bad in preseason, you must remember that. Even after the opener in Cincy, there were several threads wanting to bench him. ???


Even with his pre-season performance many of us said that it was an adjustment period and that McD wasn't showing the rest of the teams what was "hiding in the closet". I think aside from being intelligent, great game
game mgr, and able to exploit the opponents strenghts and weaknesses, he's also coniving/ sneaky as hell:wiggle: (IMO).

barryr
10-22-2009, 07:34 AM
One gets the feeling even if Orton were to win a Super Bowl or 2, the Cutler fans would still believe he's not a very good QB and praise their wonderboy Cutler because he can throw the ball harder.

jhns
10-22-2009, 07:50 AM
[QUOTE=jhns;2611094]First off, try proving Knox isn't a product of Cutler. He goes there and suddenly their receivers(including ones already there) can play. Orton comes here and guys like Royal fall off....

Ahhhh...McD has stated that there isn't one go to guy..if he's open, he'll get the ball. Royal hasn't fallen off!! In this offense the ball gets spread around so its less predicable. Where have you been the past 6 weeks plus?!?!

How has royal not fallen off? Because we spread the ball around? Have you looked at Marshall and all the other receivers? They are still getting catches. Royal has had one good game receiving. That is a major decline no matter what your excuse. I don't know his stats off the top of my head but I would bet he is on pace for half of what he had last year. If he is open that little, he fell off.

jhns
10-22-2009, 07:55 AM
What would that be comparing win/loss record because isn't that is all that matters anyways. If we threw Elways stats up here and compared them to these two we would puke but I doubt anyone here would take Orton/Cutler over him.

Yes, let's just compare wins and losses. While you are at it, try figuring out a way to convince the world that this is a one man sport. One guy that is good can beat entire teams by himself. That also paints a perfect picture of Orton, right? I see him carrying this team on his back. The defense hasn't done much, the special teams make him go 99 yards every play and he has to receive his own passes because our recievers don't even care to take the field. Honestly, him playing defense by himself isn't the most impressive part, that has to go to him blocking for himself. Riiiiiiiight. Come back when you want to talk reality.

jhns
10-22-2009, 07:59 AM
Why don't you compare Brees, Favre and you fluff job boy's redzone decision making? Jay is the king between the 20's and is a guy that at least looks good losing. What is Jay's record in Playoff clinching games to since you love your stats?

You know we scored more last year than this one, right? Just a little info that helps prove we could only move between the 20s. I guess that is still better than not being able to move it right?

Again though, your only argument is that this a sport of individuals. I bet you hate the message of team that this team is supposed to be about.

TailgateNut
10-22-2009, 08:00 AM
I see the resident "genius" is at it again.

I think I need to remove Yavoon, Codeman, Wags and BarryRamey from my Iggy list. They don't deserve to be locked "in the same room" with this clown.

jhns
10-22-2009, 08:04 AM
I see the resident "genius" is at it again.

I think I need to remove Yavoon, Codeman, Wags and BarryRamey from my Iggy list. They don't deserve to be locked "in the same room" with this clown.

Aww, poor guy is crying again. Aren't you supposed to be a grown ass man? I almost feel sorry for some of you that are this soft and emotional. I bet you guys got picked on a lot.

jhns
10-22-2009, 08:07 AM
This is post 48 in this thread from me. I vote we just rename it "The jhns Experience". Two more posts and I can reach that 50 goal I set earlier.

TonyR
10-22-2009, 08:07 AM
It's beginning to appear that coaches who spend more than a season or two out of the league are becoming instantly obsolete. Is there really a market for Cowher now? Shottenheimer? If Shanahan doesn't take a relevent (Dallas, Washington) job pretty quickly does he remain desirable? Billick? Holmgren?
...It's beginning to look more and more like a young man's game, and these vets need to get back in quickly or give it up.

I mostly agree. The only exception that comes to mind for me is Vermeil when he came back and won with the Rams "Greatest Show on Turf". And I think there will be a market for some of the guys you mention, but that interest will most likely come from the younger, billionaire owners like Snyder who run their teams like it's fantasy football. Bowlen was clearly able to think outside the box and have some vision when he hired guys like Shanahan and, even more so, McDaniels, instead of going for a retread.

I think the odds are against Shanahan every being a highly successful head coach again.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
10-22-2009, 08:12 AM
This is post 48 in this thread from me. I vote we just rename it "The jhns Experience". Two more posts and I can reach that 50 goal I set earlier.

Couldn't we just call it "a ****ing migraine"? What's astounding is that in 48 posts, you haven't gotten any smarter.

TailgateNut
10-22-2009, 08:17 AM
Couldn't we just call it "a ****ing migraine"? What's astounding is that in 48 posts, you haven't gotten any smarter.


Some folks are just plain ignorant. jhns is an attention whore who can't grasp the fact that 95%+ of those who interact(ed) with him, realize he's an arrogant fool.

If everyone were to ignore him, he would still be here talking to himself in an effort to bloat his ego.

jhns
10-22-2009, 08:18 AM
Couldn't we just call it "a ****ing migraine"? What's astounding is that in 48 posts, you haven't gotten any smarter.

Close enough. Why would I get smarter posting? In order for that to happen, I would need to debate with smart people that could educate me. Those people are not on this forum. I only see a bunch of women that can't get over people having different opinions. My original argument in this thread was how both teams made out good. The only thing you guys see from that is "Orton sucks we f'd up". I'm not sure how that happens but it proves it is going to be impossible to have intelligent conversations here. That means none of us arew getting smarter.

jhns
10-22-2009, 08:24 AM
Some folks are just plain ignorant. jhns is an attention whore who can't grasp the fact that 95%+ of those who interact(ed) with him, realize he's an arrogant fool.

If everyone were to ignore him, he would still be here talking to himself in an effort to bloat his ego.

See this is something that shows you guys have a lack of real social interaction. You have egos on a message board? That is pretty sad. Not that I needed to hear that. You cry about my posts in every thread and then talk about ignoring me. That doesn't make much sense at all. You then respond to me by PM like we are buddies or something. I really don't understand.

I had it wrong earlier. That one post was 47, not 48. Oh well, 50 won't be hard now anyways.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
10-22-2009, 08:39 AM
Close enough. Why would I get smarter posting? In order for that to happen, I would need to debate with smart people that could educate me. Those people are not on this forum. I only see a bunch of women that can't get over people having different opinions. My original argument in this thread was how both teams made out good. The only thing you guys see from that is "Orton sucks we f'd up". I'm not sure how that happens but it proves it is going to be impossible to have intelligent conversations here. That means none of us arew getting smarter.

You said Cutler could improve. I thought maybe you'd grow a brain at some point.

I was wrong.

jhns
10-22-2009, 08:43 AM
You said Cutler could improve. I thought maybe you'd grow a brain at some point.

I was wrong.

Yeah well I just hit 50 posts in "The jhns Experience". I guess that makes me better than all of you.

Spider
10-22-2009, 08:49 AM
Close enough. Why would I get smarter posting? In order for that to happen, I would need to debate with smart people that could educate me. Those people are not on this forum. I only see a bunch of women that can't get over people having different opinions. My original argument in this thread was how both teams made out good. The only thing you guys see from that is "Orton sucks we f'd up". I'm not sure how that happens but it proves it is going to be impossible to have intelligent conversations here. That means none of us arew getting smarter.

no both teams did not make out good ..............we got the better end of it ..... I dont know , but someone here could find out ,when was the last time Orton lost a game ?
( Not Preseason) ....... I can tell you when Cutler has

jhns
10-22-2009, 08:52 AM
no both teams did not make out good ..............we got the better end of it ..... I dont know , but someone here could find out ,when was the last time Orton lost a game ?
( Not Preseason) ....... I can tell you when Cutler has

Cool story bro....

Peoples Champ
10-22-2009, 08:52 AM
Everyone keeps saying Cutler needs weapons, but he had weapons last year in Denver, and what was our offense ranked in Scoring? 20 something?

Chicago needs to give Cutler weapons, but they gave us all their good draft picks. I think they should have thought about that before they made the trade.

Spider
10-22-2009, 08:56 AM
Cool story bro....

couldnt answer ? neither could I ......but I think Orton went on a 5 game winning streak last year before he got injured .......

jhns
10-22-2009, 08:58 AM
Everyone keeps saying Cutler needs weapons, but he had weapons last year in Denver, and what was our offense ranked in Scoring? 20 something?

Chicago needs to give Cutler weapons, but they gave us all their good draft picks. I think they should have thought about that before they made the trade.

No, they need to figure out the o-line before getting weapons. Oh, and our offense was 11th in offensive scoring. Our team was 16th. You know what we are now? Like 20th and we already have more special teams/defensive scores that we had all of last year (actually, I think its the same, 2). Oh yeah, our offense was also all rookie-third year guys with many injuries. I know, experience means nothing. There is no way that offense could grow and become real good. That first season of all those young guys didn't show any promise at all. No wonder we had to get rid of everyone and start over. Wait a minute, don't we only have two new starters? Weird...

jhns
10-22-2009, 08:59 AM
couldnt answer ? neither could I ......but I think Orton went on a 5 game winning streak last year before he got injured .......

Yeah, that whole one man team argument again. It is a good one, ill give you that....

Tombstone RJ
10-22-2009, 08:59 AM
This thread sucks. I feel cheap and used for just reading a few of these posts... must be that magic jhns experience...

oubronco
10-22-2009, 09:01 AM
Couple problems with that statement. First, the acquisition of a "FRANCHISE QUARTERBACK" was supposed to make a SIGNIFICANT difference for that franchise. Period. He wasn't brought in to win the same amount of games. He was brought in to win MORE games. Not sure why that's so hard to see.

Second, Orton is winning MORE in Denver than Cutler was. With a similar supporting cast, that same offensive line and receivers. The difference? Why, turnovers, of course!

as soon as they get him more weapons i'm sure they will win more

either Manning's or Brady wouldn't be putting up great numbers there

TheElusiveKyleOrton
10-22-2009, 09:03 AM
Yeah well I just hit 50 posts in "The jhns Experience". I guess that makes me better than all of you.

Couple of points:
1. Sticking feathers up your butt does not make you a chicken. Telling yourself and us that you're better than us doesn't make it so.
2. Yelling louder (or more frequently) than anyone else doesn't make you right. it just makes you louder.
3. You're still a moron.

Motion to change this thread title to "JHNS' self-gratification jamboree".

jhns
10-22-2009, 09:03 AM
This thread sucks. I feel cheap and used for just reading a few of these posts... must be that magic jhns experience...

That is a good tag for The jhns Experience. "Will leave you feeling like a cheap hooker".

jhns
10-22-2009, 09:06 AM
as soon as they get him more weapons i'm sure they will win more

either Manning's or Brady wouldn't be putting up great numbers there

You do not know how much I just laughed when you said the only difference in this team is offensive turnovers. Is that serious? You guys say you want intelligent conversation? Sure you do.

jhns
10-22-2009, 09:10 AM
Couple of points:
1. Sticking feathers up your butt does not make you a chicken. Telling yourself and us that you're better than us doesn't make it so.
2. Yelling louder (or more frequently) than anyone else doesn't make you right. it just makes you louder.
3. You're still a moron.

Motion to change this thread title to "JHNS' self-gratification jamboree".

I think it does make me better than you. What am I trying to be right about though? I wasn't aware that I was making any real points. I even made my intentions clear a long time ago in this thread. What is funny is you still get played like a puppet after I tell you I am just f'n with all you trolls. You are still in here taking it seriously...

BroncoBuff
10-22-2009, 09:13 AM
I think it does make me better than you. What am I trying to be right about though? I wasn't aware that I was making any real points. I even made my intentions clear a long time ago in this thread. What is funny is you still get played like a puppet after I tell you I am just f'n with all you trolls. You are still in here taking it seriously...
Some of us still like Cutler, a few of us anyway ... but this is a Broncos site after all, so it shouldn't surprise us that sentiment against him is so high, especially seeing that he asked to be traded.

It's probably not too clever of us to defend Jay around here ... ::)

jhns
10-22-2009, 09:26 AM
Some of us still like Cutler, a few of us anyway ... but this is a Broncos site after all, so it shouldn't surprise us that sentiment against him is so high, especially seeing that he asked to be traded.

It's probably not too clever of us to defend Jay around here ... ::)

I wasn't even defending jay though. I just made a case that both teams are happy with what they have. I tried actually discussing football. I then am told that I am saying we are better with jay and blah blah blah. People here can't discuss reality because they still can't get over Cutler. They are a bunch of butthurt babies.

I expect people to hate him but if you are going to troll all of my posts because you hate him, don't get so upset about me doing it right back. Not that this is directed at you Buff. Just trying to cry myself to sleep.

Tombstone RJ
10-22-2009, 09:27 AM
That is a good tag for The jhns Experience. "Will leave you feeling like a cheap hooker".

Touche

baja
10-22-2009, 09:27 AM
Some of us still like Cutler, a few of us anyway ... but this is a Broncos site after all, so it shouldn't surprise us that sentiment against him is so high, especially seeing that he asked to be traded.

It's probably not too clever of us to defend Jay around here ... ::)

Nice company you find yourself in Buff.

Peoples Champ
10-22-2009, 09:29 AM
No, they need to figure out the o-line before getting weapons. Oh, and our offense was 11th in offensive scoring. Our team was 16th. You know what we are now? Like 20th and we already have more special teams/defensive scores that we had all of last year (actually, I think its the same, 2). Oh yeah, our offense was also all rookie-third year guys with many injuries. I know, experience means nothing. There is no way that offense could grow and become real good. That first season of all those young guys didn't show any promise at all. No wonder we had to get rid of everyone and start over. Wait a minute, don't we only have two new starters? Weird...

Ya they should draft OL. You are correct. Wait, with what draft picks. Man I would not like to be a bears fan right now.

TheReverend
10-22-2009, 09:30 AM
its crazy the phenomenon that happens, orton gets zero credit for winning games, its always everyone else around him, but cutler gets ALL the credit for winning and all the excuses for why he lost, never his fault...

Because it's silly. Win/loss should never be a quarterback stat. Does how they play weigh pretty heavily in that result? Sure. But how they play is also indicative of how everyone played around them

For an example, is this guy a winning quarterback?

Win-loss
35-63


?


That's our very own "He just wins games" Jake Plummer who flipped that ratio in a 360 to 40-19 here in Denver.

In regards to the actual post, I think Kyle has been one of, if not, THE most instrumental players in our toughest two wins (NE and SD), but, yes Cinci and Dallas I do have to say it was the receivers making the plays and not him (a 60% YAC at that point agrees).

Rock Chalk
10-22-2009, 09:31 AM
as soon as they get him more weapons i'm sure they will win more

either Manning's or Brady wouldn't be putting up great numbers there

Of course he should win more with more weapons.

By the time they get them for him though, the defense will be garbage so, Cutler is back to square one.

If he doesn't win as many games as Orton did in Chicago, with the same supporting cast in Chicago as Orton did, what does that tell you about Cutler?

HEAV
10-22-2009, 09:34 AM
Nice company you find yourself in Buff.


Starting to see the real colors of a few posters on this site.

jhns
10-22-2009, 09:37 AM
Ya they should draft OL. You are correct. Wait, with what draft picks. Man I would not like to be a bears fan right now.

Why is this a question for me? I could care less if they ever figure it out. Just because they can't build an offense doesn't mean they are mad they traded for Cutler. I'm pretty sure that is why they want Cutler and like him. They hope his natural skills will allow him to overcome the other problems on the team. Even if you don't think he can now, this trade was made for the next 10 years. Cutler is still young.

jhns
10-22-2009, 09:39 AM
Of course he should win more with more weapons.

By the time they get them for him though, the defense will be garbage so, Cutler is back to square one.

If he doesn't win as many games as Orton did in Chicago, with the same supporting cast in Chicago as Orton did, what does that tell you about Cutler?

How does he have the same cast? Half the starting defense is already injured. Is that Cutlers fault? Is his stronger than Elway arm just injuring all of them in practice or what? I don't see them winning less games anyways though.

BroncoBuff
10-22-2009, 09:41 AM
Nice company you find yourself in Buff.
What, are we only supposed to agree with "the popular kids"? This isn't a playground baja, it's not about personalities. To think that is a real weakness, sorry but it is.

Besides, as I've said dozens of times, only on this site does anti-Jay sentiment rise to such foolishness.

TheReverend
10-22-2009, 09:42 AM
Of course he should win more with more weapons.

By the time they get them for him though, the defense will be garbage so, Cutler is back to square one.

If he doesn't win as many games as Orton did in Chicago, with the same supporting cast in Chicago as Orton did, what does that tell you about Cutler?

Now THIS is a valid comparison, imo.

There are always variables like strength of schedule and how tough that division got overnight this off-season and that their long-standing defensive MVP went out for the year in week 1, but really it's close enough to be a good measure imo.

Rohirrim
10-22-2009, 09:43 AM
Nice company you find yourself in Buff.

Buff lays another "Ewwwww." ROFL!

Rock Chalk
10-22-2009, 09:44 AM
To be fair Rev, Orton had a better defense last year than Cutler is working with this year. With Urlacher out that defense has taken a hit.

But its not the defense that has lost their two games. Its Cutler's red zone turnovers. Despite them, they have been in the games, but those red zone turnovers cost his team points.

BroncoInferno
10-22-2009, 09:45 AM
Orton is NFL's highest rated QB in the 4th quarter at a ridiculous 142.1 (perfect rating is 158.3). Joe Flacco is well behind in a second at 116.8. Cutler is 7th in the league at 109.5.

TailgateNut
10-22-2009, 09:47 AM
To be fair Rev, Orton had a better defense last year than Cutler is working with this year. With Urlacher out that defense has taken a hit.

But its not the defense that has lost their two games. Its Cutler's red zone turnovers. Despite them, they have been in the games, but those red zone turnovers cost his team points.

The problem seems to be that "cousin it" wants to credit Cutler for the wins and his team for the losses (just like jay does) whereas on the other side it's credit the team for the wins and (oh snap, there aren't any losses to blame on Orton);D.

TheReverend
10-22-2009, 09:48 AM
To be fair Rev, Orton had a better defense last year than Cutler is working with this year. With Urlacher out that defense has taken a hit.

But its not the defense that has lost their two games. Its Cutler's red zone turnovers. Despite them, they have been in the games, but those red zone turnovers cost his team points.

Hey, like I said, I agree that this is a viable comparison.

baja
10-22-2009, 09:51 AM
What, are we only supposed to agree with "the popular kids"? This isn't a playground baja, it's not about personalities. To think that is a real weakness, sorry but it is.

Besides, as I've said dozens of times, only on this site does anti-Jay sentiment rise to such foolishness.

What you see as anti - Jay is more a case of calling it like it is (From most of us) hell even the more realistic Bears fans are saying the same things the bulk of us are saying that you have labeled Jay-haters. You are the one with the blind man crush for most of the rest of us the fog has cleared. Dude your arguing partner is broncofan 7 & Jfeeble, that should tell you something.

TailgateNut
10-22-2009, 09:55 AM
Dude your arguing partner is broncofan 7 & Jfeeble, that should tell you something.

BB has a higher IQ than the other two combined and squared.

oubronco
10-22-2009, 09:59 AM
You do not know how much I just laughed when you said the only difference in this team is offensive turnovers. Is that serious? You guys say you want intelligent conversation? Sure you do.

Dude I have no idea what the **** you are talking about