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Rock Chalk
10-21-2009, 02:02 AM
THere are a few people who still have doubts about Orton.

I get it, I do. I mean, he really didn't do much in no-man's land...er I mean Chicago (except win, but whatever).

This is an honest question that I want to hear your takes on. I wont refute or bash anything you say (what others do or say is not up to me, remember that) I just want to know the mindset of my fellow Bronco fans who remain doubters.

At this point, if you are still unsure about Orton as a long-term or even semi-long term solution to the QB position in Denver, why? What doubts and reserves do you still have? What has Orton shown this season in this system that tells you he cannot be a successful QB in the NFL and with teh Broncos?

kappys
10-21-2009, 02:08 AM
THere are a few people who still have doubts about Orton.

I get it, I do. I mean, he really didn't do much in no-man's land...er I mean Chicago (except win, but whatever).

This is an honest question that I want to hear your takes on. I wont refute or bash anything you say (what others do or say is not up to me, remember that) I just want to know the mindset of my fellow Bronco fans who remain doubters.

At this point, if you are still unsure about Orton as a long-term or even semi-long term solution to the QB position in Denver, why? What doubts and reserves do you still have? What has Orton shown this season in this system that tells you he cannot be a successful QB in the NFL and with teh Broncos?

My only doubt now is that he might not take a nice long term cap friendly deal without demanding top dollar.

OBF1
10-21-2009, 04:08 AM
I love Jay Cutler and want to have his baby..... Signed BroncoMcBuff :)

Taco John
10-21-2009, 04:09 AM
I have the same confidence in Orton as I had in pre-Oakland injury Griese, and like him for all of the same reasons. That's to say, I didn't expect Griese to do the same things that the gun slinger who came before him could do with a football - I just expected him to go out, manage the game, and get the ball into the right hands, and by doing so, have the team in a position to win games once the fourth quarter rolled around.

I think that's exactly the kind of QB that Orton is, and I would be interested in hearing reasons why I'm wrong on that. Keep in mind, I'm not talking about the Griese that we all remember - the limp armed quarterback who was either being picked up off the turf or throwing an interception every other down. I'm talking about the Griese who threw both Eddie and Rod 100 catch seasons, was twice named the AFC player of the week (10/17/99 (http://www.jt-sw.com/football/boxes/index.nsf/Games/1999-06-gb-den), 9/10/01 (http://www.jt-sw.com/football/boxes/index.nsf/Games/2001-01-nyg-den)), named offensive player of the month (September 2001), and set a Broncos team record with a 102.9 passer rating while posting the 2nd-best TD-to-INT ratio (19/4) for a season in NFL history (2000 Season).

Aside from Griese, there is another Broncos quarterback that I think Orton draws similar comparisons to: 1990 Steve Deberg. Deberg was another quarterback with a lot of grit and nerve, though his game management ability didn't come until after he was an elder statesman in the game. Deberg was phenomenal in 1990, throwing for 3,444 yards, 23 TDs, and only 4 INTs that entire season for a QB rating of 96.3. There were only two games that year that the Chiefs lost where they weren't in position to win the game when the fourth quarter rolled around. It proved to be the same for them in the playoffs, and ultimately they came up short, losing 17-16 to the Miami Dolphins after Nick Lowrey missed a 52-yard field goal at the end of the game. Despite the ending, that was a great season for the Chiefs.

Finally, I'd add one other immediate comparison that comes to mind: Mark Rypien, WSU Cougar, and Superbowl ring wearing Alumni of the Washington Redskins. Rypien was a 2x Pro Bowl selection (1989, 1991), a Superbowl MVP, NFC Offensive Player of the Year (1991), and of course, a Superbowl Champion. That 1991 Redskins team is very close to how these Broncos are modeled. Gary Clark, Art Monk, Ricky Sanders, Ernest Byner and rookie runningback Ricky Ervins. (oh yeah, they also had Gerald Riggs as a third down back - can't wait until we get our third down back in production). Their offensive line was legendary, and their defense - led by HOFer Darrell Green, and lined by Charles Mann and Fred Stokes - not to mention pro-bowl linebacker Wilber Marshall. Rypien and that team rumbled for 11 wins out of the gates.

The point that I'm trying to make is that there's no doubt in my mind that we can get a lot out of Kyle Orton. I think the guy is one of the sharpest tools in the NFL shed. I love the way he goes out and conducts business. He's definitely proven he's a winner, and that means a lot.

But all that being said, the downside of all of the guys I mentioned here nags at my consciousness, and came into clear focus for me last night at pool when my buddy grinned and said, "you Broncos fans crack me up, if your defense was only half as good as it is right now everyone in Denver would hate Kyle Orton right now, and here you are trying to tell me how good he is."

Of course, the best response is the one I gave him: "we're winning now aren't we?"

But the statement did give me pause because it takes me full circle back to pre-shoulder injury Griese, the guy who built up so much good will with the Broncos fans because of his gritty, efficient, pro-bowl earning record-setting performances. All of which went up in smoke almost overnight.

That pretty much sums up both my hopes and reservations about Orton. I suspect, like with Griese, I'll have to be one of the last ones here being pulled off the Orton boat insisting that if we put enough talent around the guy, he can pull off miracles, but I'm hoping he saves me the embarassment and goes out and wins a Superbowl with this team.

fontaine
10-21-2009, 04:36 AM
At this point, if you are still unsure about Orton as a long-term or even semi-long term solution to the QB position in Denver, why? What doubts and reserves do you still have? What has Orton shown this season in this system that tells you he cannot be a successful QB in the NFL and with teh Broncos?

I really like how Orton has improved so far in the season but I think it's still too early to make a judgement on him being a long term solution.

I have two reservations:

I would like to see how he plays as defenses start adjusting to our short passing game. We already saw it with SD. Jammer and Cromartarie were pushed up the line in order to go after the WRs for the 1-5 yard passes from Orton. As a result we didn't see many passes thrown Royal/Stokley/Gaffney's way. I guess it's not really a big deal because only defense with top CBs can get away with doing this. Anything less that very good play from the CBs will result in big plays from our WRs in this type of press coverage.

Secondly, I want to see how Orton continues to handle his pre snap reads. I think the most important part of McD's system calls for the QB to make the right presnap reads and decisions. Orton is already doing this but I want him to continue doing it against the good front 7's we'll face the next three/four weeks.

So really I don't have any criticisms of the guy. I understand that in order for him to succeed we need a good OL and WRs getting open and that's cool. But I want him to do the things he's doing for an entire season because any QB can have a good two/three game stretch or longer.

Also, finally, props to Orton in settling down as a pocket passer in this offense. I counted at least 8 times in his dropbacks where he went through two to three reads, scanning the entire field.

Plus, even though on a lot of plays he had Moreno/Buck available for the dump off pass he didn't go for the easy option but tried to pass the ball further down the field.

fontaine
10-21-2009, 04:47 AM
I have the same confidence in Orton as I had in pre-Oakland injury Griese, and like him for all of the same reasons. That's to say, I didn't expect Griese to do the same things that the gun slinger who came before him could do with a football - I just expected him to go out, manage the game, and get the ball into the right hands, and by doing so, have the team in a position to win games once the fourth quarter rolled around.

I think that's exactly the kind of QB that Orton is, and I would be interested in hearing reasons why I'm wrong on that.

You are wrong.

1. Orton has a much stronger arm than Griese ever had on his best day.

2. Griese's aloof and quiet demeanor never really won over his team mates or the locker room. Orton is twice the leader Griese will ever be.

3. Orton also has better pocket presence, Griese was a statue.

4. Apart from one stretch of a handful of games in 2000, Griese never really took care of the ball. He turned the ball over by throwing ints, and was a fumbler.

5. And finally, Orton isn't a clumsy, dog tripping, clown, and won't be punched in the face by a team mate for being one either.

Ray Finkle
10-21-2009, 04:52 AM
You are wrong.

1. Orton has a much stronger arm than Griese ever had on his best day.

2. Griese's aloof and quiet demeanor never really won over his team mates or the locker room. Orton is twice the leader Griese will ever be.

3. Orton also has better pocket presence, Griese was a statue.

4. Apart from one stretch of a handful of games in 2000, Griese never really took care of the ball. He turned the ball over by throwing ints, and was a fumbler.

5. And finally, Orton isn't a clumsy, dog tripping, clown, and won't be punched in the face by a team mate for being one either.

Griese hardly threw INT's....

RMT
10-21-2009, 04:56 AM
but here are a few reasons the Broncos defense is better ...

1. fewer turnovers by the Broncos' offense
2. better special teams play
3. a more physical style of play than anything shanahan put on the field the past 3 years

cutler may be more physically gifted than orton but he was not a leader and would have cost the broncos a win or two already with his turnovers and/or negative attitude.

RMT
10-21-2009, 04:59 AM
My only doubt now is that he might not take a nice long term cap friendly deal without demanding top dollar.

kyle orton is smart enough to realize the benefit of playing under mcdaniels and will not demand an outrageous contract to stay. plus, he loves being the consummate teammate and winning games. plus, he's from the midwest ... cutler is, too, sorta but he's the antithesis of midwest folks.

cutthemdown
10-21-2009, 05:06 AM
The only qbs in the NFL I don't have questions about are the ones that won a Superbowl.

So to say I have no doubt Orton will win a Superbowl to me is a reach. Superbowls are really hard to win. Don't you all agree that Superbowls are huge? They ain't easy to win. You get 1 Superbowl ring a decade and you are elite. After 40 yrs you should have 4, but we all know it's not even that easy.

Orton seems good enough to win with other players playing really well.

Reminds me a tad of Plummer in that regard, but not in how they play. Orton has weapons though and defense playing well. If that formula continues he could win a Superbowl.

cutthemdown
10-21-2009, 05:13 AM
kyle orton is smart enough to realize the benefit of playing under mcdaniels and will not demand an outrageous contract to stay. plus, he loves being the consummate teammate and winning games. plus, he's from the midwest ... cutler is, too, sorta but he's the antithesis of midwest folks.

I agree unless Broncos insult him with a lowball offer his agent will tell him to for sure sign a long term deal, get upfront money, invest it, and be rich forever. Even a 2nd tier long term NFL QB contract is like hitting the lottery.

You would think minimum Orton walks away with a 10 million dollar bonus. Maybe not all at once but it will be a good chunk garaunteed

TailgateNut
10-21-2009, 07:35 AM
I love Jay Cutler and want to have his baby..... Signed BroncoMcBuff :)

That would be one UGLY A$$ BABY!

BIG TOO!:wiggle:

TailgateNut
10-21-2009, 07:37 AM
You are wrong.

1. Orton has a much stronger arm than Griese ever had on his best day.

2. Griese's aloof and quiet demeanor never really won over his team mates or the locker room. Orton is twice the leader Griese will ever be.

3. Orton also has better pocket presence, Griese was a statue.

4. Apart from one stretch of a handful of games in 2000, Griese never really took care of the ball. He turned the ball over by throwing ints, and was a fumbler.

5. And finally, Orton isn't a clumsy, dog tripping, clown, and won't be punched in the face by a team mate for being one either.


Awesome response.

HEAV
10-21-2009, 07:39 AM
Wins = Franchise QB

barryr
10-21-2009, 07:40 AM
People tend to forget that Orton while at Purdue was in a mostly passing attack type of offense and was the QB that followed Brees there. He didn't come from a mostly running attack, ball control offense that say Griese did while at Michigan.

gyldenlove
10-21-2009, 07:42 AM
THere are a few people who still have doubts about Orton.

I get it, I do. I mean, he really didn't do much in no-man's land...er I mean Chicago (except win, but whatever).

This is an honest question that I want to hear your takes on. I wont refute or bash anything you say (what others do or say is not up to me, remember that) I just want to know the mindset of my fellow Bronco fans who remain doubters.

At this point, if you are still unsure about Orton as a long-term or even semi-long term solution to the QB position in Denver, why? What doubts and reserves do you still have? What has Orton shown this season in this system that tells you he cannot be a successful QB in the NFL and with teh Broncos?

The exact same thing Plummer did. Orton looks excellent in the regular season just like Plummer had his high win %, what we need to figure out is how he performs in the playoffs. Can he win a playoff game?

There is no denying that Orton looks brilliant right now, he is thouroughly outplaying not only expectations but also a string of pro bowlers, but like Marty Schottenheimer will tell you, 14-2 means very little if its one and done in January.

jhns
10-21-2009, 07:42 AM
I am sold on Orton for the now but not as the long term answer yet. The only thing I would like to see now is how he performs over the entire season and how he handles big games(playoffs). I still think there are much better QBs and that this offense could be very special with everyone else we have if we could find a better QB. Orton has been getting better though and could be that QB. He just needs to continue to improve as he has been.

HEAV
10-21-2009, 07:55 AM
The exact same thing Plummer did. Orton looks excellent in the regular season just like Plummer had his high win %, what we need to figure out is how he performs in the playoffs. Can he win a playoff game?

There is no denying that Orton looks brilliant right now, he is thouroughly outplaying not only expectations but also a string of pro bowlers, but like Marty Schottenheimer will tell you, 14-2 means very little if its one and done in January.

http://www.fantasticfiction.co.uk/images/n28/n142962.jpg

HEAV
10-21-2009, 07:57 AM
I am sold on Orton for the now but not as the long term answer yet. The only thing I would like to see now is how he performs over the entire season and how he handles big games(playoffs). I still think there are much better QBs and that this offense could be very special with everyone else we have if we could find a better QB. Orton has been getting better though and could be that QB. He just needs to continue to improve as he has been.

http://www.istockphoto.com/file_thumbview_approve/7668637/2/istockphoto_7668637-two-boys-on-the-fence-looking-for-smth.jpg

BroncoInferno
10-21-2009, 08:11 AM
I agree unless Broncos insult him with a lowball offer his agent will tell him to for sure sign a long term deal, get upfront money, invest it, and be rich forever. Even a 2nd tier long term NFL QB contract is like hitting the lottery.

You would think minimum Orton walks away with a 10 million dollar bonus. Maybe not all at once but it will be a good chunk garaunteed

$10 million dollar bonus? Sorry, you guys are dreaming. Matt Cassel, after one year as a starter, received a 6 year $60 million deal with $28 million guaranteed. If Orton surpasses Cassel's solid 2008 numbers (which is on pace to do) and leads the team to the playoffs, rest assured that Cassel's deal will be his agents starting point for negotiations. In the NFL, if you a going to commit long-term to a starting QB, you are going to have to pay top dollar to do so. That's just how it is, like or not.

kamakazi_kal
10-21-2009, 08:18 AM
Division race: Over.

My doubts about the Broncos: Over.

The Broncos and McDaniels are proving to many people, me included, that we have no idea what to expect each and every NFL season. Anybody outside the Rocky Mountain region not named McDaniels who thought this would be a playoff team is lying worse than that balloon fool.

TheDave
10-21-2009, 08:22 AM
After my brilliant predictions this offseason... I'm taking this one game at a time.

As of right now he seems to be a good fit for this offense. After all 16 games and a playoff game or two maybe then I will venture a long term guess.

Peoples Champ
10-21-2009, 08:27 AM
but here are a few reasons the Broncos defense is better ...

1. fewer turnovers by the Broncos' offense
2. better special teams play
3. a more physical style of play than anything shanahan put on the field the past 3 years

cutler may be more physically gifted than orton but he was not a leader and would have cost the broncos a win or two already with his turnovers and/or negative attitude.

And 4. Brian Dawkins (aka leadership)

Rock Chalk
10-21-2009, 08:32 AM
Griese hardly threw INT's....

One year he had 19 TDs to 4 interceptions. Every single year he played before and after he threw at least as many interceptions as TDs.

TonyR
10-21-2009, 08:35 AM
$10 million dollar bonus? Sorry, you guys are dreaming. Matt Cassel, after one year as a starter, received a 6 year $60 million deal with $28 million guaranteed. If Orton surpasses Cassel's solid 2008 numbers (which is on pace to do) and leads the team to the playoffs, rest assured that Cassel's deal will be his agents starting point for negotiations. In the NFL, if you a going to commit long-term to a starting QB, you are going to have to pay top dollar to do so. That's just how it is, like or not.

I tend to agree while at the same time wondering how much interest there would be for Orton in the FA market. Would other teams think they could plug him in and win? How many teams would think he'd fit what they do or want to do and would be an improvement over what they have?

Bronco Warrior
10-21-2009, 08:36 AM
It's funny to hear the goofy stuff the uneducateds say about players in the game!
Orton is not anybody's long term solution. He has been playing safe and efficient, and to my suprise his mechanics have benefited from Josh's coaching but he is no where near a great QB. Having said that here are a few things that are suprising:

I don't know what it is but he does seem to be getting better. It is inexpicable to me but the guy has stepped up his game. The QB Coaching he's getting does seem to be helping his mechanics some and he seems to methodically run this new offense.

He doesn't have a great arm and compared to most not even a good arm, but he has improved in not throwing the sloppy pass. He stioll misses the longer touch passes but he has improved on..for example..the touch pass on the fade to the corner of the endzone ie to Sheffler. Earlier in the first few games he couldn't hit that to save him and Josh was ripping him for it!

He is defying all the rules...and it vexes me, confuses me! He isn't that bright, he isn't mobile at all, and his armstrength is subpar to say the least, but it is working! He just keeps going along and WINNING! You go back and watch Chicago games and even though he played OK it was always the ST or D that bailed him out, and he didn't come through in the pressure situations. Even The first couple of games we won inspite of him and dozens of sloppy passes. Can't say that anymore, and it defies logic! I don't see Orton being a long term solution..he just doesn't have the skills, but he will be our guy till we can find a guy with the most baffling skill Orton has of all...WINNING!

Drek
10-21-2009, 08:40 AM
$10 million dollar bonus? Sorry, you guys are dreaming. Matt Cassel, after one year as a starter, received a 6 year $60 million deal with $28 million guaranteed. If Orton surpasses Cassel's solid 2008 numbers (which is on pace to do) and leads the team to the playoffs, rest assured that Cassel's deal will be his agents starting point for negotiations. In the NFL, if you a going to commit long-term to a starting QB, you are going to have to pay top dollar to do so. That's just how it is, like or not.

Matt Cassel also had a franchise tag in hand, guaranteeing him $14.7M for a single season of football. That is some pretty powerful leverage right there.

If you consider that and take the 1 year/$14.7M tag out of it he signed a 5 year, $46.3M contract with $13.3M guaranteed. That is 9.26M AAV, for a player with no need to rush into an extension, since he had a huge pay day already locked up followed by another shot at FA.

Orton will likely be negotiating from an RFA tag worth less than $2M for next season. I think he'll be very easy to sign in the $8M to $9M range for AAV, 4 or 5 years in length.

TonyR
10-21-2009, 08:41 AM
I don't know what it is but he does seem to be getting better. It is inexpicable to me but the guy has stepped up his game.

I think along with getting more comfortable in the offense that the injury and glove had a lot to do with it. He has his shortcomings for sure, particularly on the longer passes (he missed on that long throw to Marshall against SD, throwing it over the wrong shoulder instead of leading him which probably would have resulted in a TD), but he has so many intangibles and doesn't make many mistakes. I'm more than pleasantly surprised thus far.

BroncoInferno
10-21-2009, 08:42 AM
I tend to agree while at the same time wondering how much interest there would be for Orton in the FA market. Would other teams think they could plug him in and win? How many teams would think he'd fit what they do or want to do and would be an improvement over what they have?

Did other teams feel that way about Cassel? Belichek says the deal of a 2nd for Cassel and Vrabel was the only offer that was made.

QBs have all the leverage in contract negotiations. This is because there are not enough quality starters for all 32 teams. Starting QBs rarely hit the open market unless there is an injury question (Brees a few seasons ago) or they're old (Favre). Teams usually have no choice but to pay top dollar to keep a QB who has been successful for them. I mean, if we don't resign Orton, what are our alternatives? Start Simms? Brandstater? Draft a guy and wait for him to (hopefully) develop? There won't be anyone of proven quality available in FA. We'll have little choice but to resign Orton and, again, you can rest assured his agents will use the Cassel deal as a starting point.

Drek
10-21-2009, 08:42 AM
It's funny to hear the goofy stuff the uneducateds say about players in the game!
Orton is not anybody's long term solution. He has been playing safe and efficient, and to my suprise his mechanics have benefited from Josh's coaching but he is no where near a great QB. Having said that here are a few things that are suprising:

I don't know what it is but he does seem to be getting better. It is inexpicable to me but the guy has stepped up his game. The QB Coaching he's getting does seem to be helping his mechanics some and he seems to methodically run this new offense.

He doesn't have a great arm and compared to most not even a good arm, but he has improved in not throwing the sloppy pass. He stioll misses the longer touch passes but he has improved on..for example..the touch pass on the fade to the corner of the endzone ie to Sheffler. Earlier in the first few games he couldn't hit that to save him and Josh was ripping him for it!

He is defying all the rules...and it vexes me, confuses me! He isn't that bright, he isn't mobile at all, and his armstrength is subpar to say the least, but it is working! He just keeps going along and WINNING! You go back and watch Chicago games and even though he played OK it was always the ST or D that bailed him out, and he didn't come through in the pressure situations. Even The first couple of games we won inspite of him and dozens of sloppy passes. Can't say that anymore, and it defies logic! I don't see Orton being a long term solution..he just doesn't have the skills, but he will be our guy till we can find a guy with the most baffling skill Orton has of all...WINNING!

****ing HILARIOUS joke post there man.

TailgateNut
10-21-2009, 08:46 AM
It's funny to hear the goofy stuff the uneducateds say about players in the game!
Orton is not anybody's long term solution. He has been playing safe and efficient, and to my suprise his mechanics have benefited from Josh's coaching but he is no where near a great QB. Having said that here are a few things that are suprising:

I don't know what it is but he does seem to be getting better. It is inexpicable to me but the guy has stepped up his game. The QB Coaching he's getting does seem to be helping his mechanics some and he seems to methodically run this new offense.

He doesn't have a great arm and compared to most not even a good arm, but he has improved in not throwing the sloppy pass. He stioll misses the longer touch passes but he has improved on..for example..the touch pass on the fade to the corner of the endzone ie to Sheffler. Earlier in the first few games he couldn't hit that to save him and Josh was ripping him for it!

He is defying all the rules...and it vexes me, confuses me! He isn't that bright, he isn't mobile at all, and his armstrength is subpar to say the least, but it is working! He just keeps going along and WINNING! You go back and watch Chicago games and even though he played OK it was always the ST or D that bailed him out, and he didn't come through in the pressure situations. Even The first couple of games we won inspite of him and dozens of sloppy passes. Can't say that anymore, and it defies logic! I don't see Orton being a long term solution..he just doesn't have the skills, but he will be our guy till we can find a guy with the most baffling skill Orton has of all...WINNING!


:spit:


Couldn't help myself.:wiggle:

BroncoInferno
10-21-2009, 08:46 AM
Matt Cassel also had a franchise tag in hand, guaranteeing him $14.7M for a single season of football. That is some pretty powerful leverage right there.

If you consider that and take the 1 year/$14.7M tag out of it he signed a 5 year, $46.3M contract with $13.3M guaranteed. That is 9.26M AAV, for a player with no need to rush into an extension, since he had a huge pay day already locked up followed by another shot at FA.

Orton will likely be negotiating from an RFA tag worth less than $2M for next season. I think he'll be very easy to sign in the $8M to $9M range for AAV, 4 or 5 years in length.

He has all the leverage. Period. Again, what alternatives do we have? Simms? Brandstater? Draft pick who might bust and in any case will need seasoning? You don't get bargain deals with QBs. There aren't enough quality starters in the league to say, "Well, you want too much so will just go sign someone else." Orton's new deal will look similar ro Cassel's and probably surpass it.

Bronco Warrior
10-21-2009, 08:47 AM
I think along with getting more comfortable in the offense that the injury and glove had a lot to do with it. He has his shortcomings for sure, particularly on the longer passes (he missed on that long throw to Marshall against SD, throwing it over the wrong shoulder instead of leading him which probably would have resulted in a TD), but he has so many intangibles and doesn't make many mistakes. I'm more than pleasantly surprised thus far.

Yeah Intangibles is right. Can't but a finger on it! It's like the guy is charmed! He throws balls that are like slow motion but for some reason they aren't picked off. As an 8 year HS College and Very Semi Pro indoor league DB I look at those passes and slobber all over myself but they just don't get to them.
He doesn't have that Hi of an upside but so far his downside is 6-0. Confusing as hell!

Drek
10-21-2009, 08:52 AM
He has all the leverage. Period. Again, what alternatives do we have? Simms? Brandstater? Draft pick who might bust and in any case will need seasoning? You don't get bargain deals with QBs. There aren't enough quality starters in the league to say, "Well, you want too much so will just go sign someone else." Orton's new deal will look similar ro Cassel's and probably surpass it.

Orton will be under a tag, we'll have him locked up for a second year regardless of what he wants, and it'll be a low dollar RFA tag.

Its not like Orton is going to leave a $95M total value deal on the table. That kind of deal isn't out there for him. A 5 year, $45M deal with $20M guaranteed is still stupid money and Orton leaves the organization with the financial means to keep his supporting cast.

Tom Brady has played much of his career at well below market value for the Patriots, until recently his AAV was always between $8-$10M. He's got three rings.

If Orton won't take that kind of discount then yes, McDaniels will just move on. We'll draft a QB fairly early, Orton will play 2010 for peanuts, and we'll have a groomed second year QB ready to take his place in 2011.

Rock Chalk
10-21-2009, 08:53 AM
He has all the leverage. Period. Again, what alternatives do we have? Simms? Brandstater? Draft pick who might bust and in any case will need seasoning? You don't get bargain deals with QBs. There aren't enough quality starters in the league to say, "Well, you want too much so will just go sign someone else." Orton's new deal will look similar ro Cassel's and probably surpass it.

I think both of you are wrong.

I think Drek might be reaching on the low end and you are reaching on the high end.

Cassell was overpaid and the entire league knows it. His agent isn't going to get that kind of money for Orton because of his perceived weaknesses however,if Orton takes this team to the playoffs and wins a game or two, I see no reason why he wont command an above average contract. I would not be surprised at something similar to what Cutler just extended himself on in Chicago.

TonyR
10-21-2009, 08:56 AM
He has all the leverage. Period. Again, what alternatives do we have?

You're right unless Orton also has no alternatives. As I said above, will there be much of a market for him? I may be crazy and/or naive but I don't think there will be, but of course it only takes one team willing to pay more. We're not going to get him "cheap" but hopefully it won't take anything close to Cassel money.

Cito Pelon
10-21-2009, 09:00 AM
Orton is fine with me. Dude is a solid Pro.

Tombstone RJ
10-21-2009, 09:07 AM
THere are a few people who still have doubts about Orton.

I get it, I do. I mean, he really didn't do much in no-man's land...er I mean Chicago (except win, but whatever).

This is an honest question that I want to hear your takes on. I wont refute or bash anything you say (what others do or say is not up to me, remember that) I just want to know the mindset of my fellow Bronco fans who remain doubters.

At this point, if you are still unsure about Orton as a long-term or even semi-long term solution to the QB position in Denver, why? What doubts and reserves do you still have? What has Orton shown this season in this system that tells you he cannot be a successful QB in the NFL and with teh Broncos?

Broncos are 6-0 and that's nice. But I'm gona hold Orton to the same standards as I hold all Denver QBs. He's not getting some kinda free pass just because the Broncos are suprising people.

In other words, I havn't seen enough to give him cart blanche endorsement.

BroncoInferno
10-21-2009, 09:11 AM
Orton will be under a tag, we'll have him locked up for a second year regardless of what he wants, and it'll be a low dollar RFA tag.

If we try the low-ball tag, I guarantee you that some team WILL be willing to negotiate for Orton. The reason New England used the franchise tag instead of RFA tag on Cassel is because the franchise tag requires two 1st round picks which no one is going to pay. So, it guarantees that you either get to keep the QB or get something for him in a trade. If Orton hits the FA market with no deal in place we will likely use the franchise tag also, because the RFA designation is not prohibitive enough to stop some desperate team from persuing him.

Its not like Orton is going to leave a $95M total value deal on the table. That kind of deal isn't out there for him. A 5 year, $45M deal with $20M guaranteed is still stupid money and Orton leaves the organization with the financial means to keep his supporting cast.

Yeah, that kind of deal isn't far off for the Cassel deal which was a six year deal. So, I could see something like that. I was more responding to the earlier poster who thought we could low ball him at $10 million guaranteed. Not happening. Also keep Delhomme's deal in mind, which included $20 million guaranteed. $20 million is the absolute minimum on guaranteed money, and depending on the length of the deal will likely exceed that.

Tom Brady has played much of his career at well below market value for the Patriots, until recently his AAV was always between $8-$10M. He's got three rings.

I guess it depends on what you mean when you say you want a "bargain" from Orton. Player contracts are always on an upward trend as the salary cap increases and agents look to get clients a deal that trumps previous deals. Yesterdays top level deal is todays "bargain."

If Orton won't take that kind of discount then yes, McDaniels will just move on. We'll draft a QB fairly early, Orton will play 2010 for peanuts, and we'll have a groomed second year QB ready to take his place in 2011.

You're wrong. There are too many unknowns at the QB spot to play that kind of game. Orton is not going to ask for Manning money, of course, but the Cassel deal is probably a good indicator of what he'll sign for. If McDaniels does what you suggest it will be pure hubris and probably alienate a lot of players.

BroncoInferno
10-21-2009, 09:15 AM
Cassell was overpaid and the entire league knows it.

It doesn't matter. Delhomme got ridiculous money from Carolina, too (and this after crapping the bed in the playoffs). He got #20 million guaranteed at 34 years of age. Whether you feel Cassel was overpaid or not is irrelevant. It sets a precedent for what other QB agents will look to secure for their clients. And QB is unique from any other position in that if you don't sign the quality guy you have you really have no other alternatives except to hope to get lucky with a retread or unproven bench warmer.

Sir_Robin
10-21-2009, 09:15 AM
Two different questions here.

At this point, if you are still unsure about Orton as a long-term or even semi-long term solution to the QB position in Denver, why? What doubts and reserves do you still have?

For me, the NFL exists solely to entertain. I give money (jerseys, hats, tickets, tv subscriptions) and in return I get 3 hours of entertainment each week. This value increases as I grant my loyalty to a team - I gain a psychologically vested interest. I became a fan of the Broncos in the mid-to-late eighties. I knew almost nothing about football but I certainly enjoyed the comeback antics of John Elway. That was a good time. The first Superbowl win is hard to beat in terms of entertainment.

After Elway retired each season became about hope that a qb would come along who could prove as entertaining. I think that was why many fans were happy to have Jake. He brought back some entertainment after the dink and dunk Griese years. Sadly, he didn't pan out as he could not consistently put together the drama with big wins. With the drafting of Cutler, I again felt the excitement of what might be. Big arm plays and the ability to come back from anything ala the Elway years. It remains to be seen if he will ever develop into a quarterback that consistently delivers the entertainment of Elway. He at least had the potential.

That brings me back to Orton. He has no potential to become the kind of quarterback that drew me into football as a form of entertainment. That is my gripe against him and why I do not support him as a long-term answer.

As for your second question.


What has Orton shown this season in this system that tells you he cannot be a successful QB in the NFL and with teh Broncos?

He has shown me nothing to indicate he will not be successful. I think he will continue to do well. If it were only about the wins then I would have no need to watch the games. I could just check NFL.com after the game in order to have a good time.

BroncoInferno
10-21-2009, 09:20 AM
You're right unless Orton also has no alternatives. As I said above, will there be much of a market for him? I may be crazy and/or naive but I don't think there will be, but of course it only takes one team willing to pay more. We're not going to get him "cheap" but hopefully it won't take anything close to Cassel money.

There will always be a market for a QB under 30 who is coming off a very successful season. If he ends up with 23 TDs and 4 INTs or something like that, someone who needs a QB will pay him. He will have alternatives. Plus, I already explained to you that the market for Cassel was questionable as well...Bellichek stated that the deal he took was the only one he received. Cassel got paid big money anyway. You think Delhomme at 34 and coming off a disastrous playoff performance would have been in high demand? He got big money anyway. Bottom line: proven NFL starting QBs get paid an ass of money. It won't be any different from Orton.

Drek
10-21-2009, 09:35 AM
If we try the low-ball tag, I guarantee you that some team WILL be willing to negotiate for Orton. The reason New England used the franchise tag instead of RFA tag on Cassel is because the franchise tag requires two 1st round picks which no one is going to pay. So, it guarantees that you either get to keep the QB or get something for him in a trade. If Orton hits the FA market with no deal in place we will likely use the franchise tag also, because the RFA designation is not prohibitive enough to stop some desperate team from persuing him.
1. Cassel had played four seasons, he was not RFA eligible. The only reason Orton will be is because of specific rules in the CBA for an uncapped 2010.

2. A maximum RFA tag is a 1st and 3rd. No team is going to give Orton a big money deal along with a 1st and 3rd to Denver. If someone wants to they're welcome to him.

Yeah, that kind of deal isn't far off for the Cassel deal which was a six year deal. So, I could see something like that. I was more responding to the earlier poster who thought we could low ball him at $10 million guaranteed. Not happening. Also keep Delhomme's deal in mind, which included $20 million guaranteed. $20 million is the absolute minimum on guaranteed money, and depending on the length of the deal will likely exceed that.
I never said we could low ball him with $10M guaranteed. I said what Cassel actually received, when you take out the money his tag already promised him, was $13.3M in additional guarantees. Much like how Cutler's new $30M/$20M guaranteed deal also assures him of having his 2010 and 2011 roster bonuses ($4M and $12M respectively) so Chicago has actually promised him $36M guaranteed over the next four years, or a massive $20M single payment if they cut him early (not going to happen). Its the power of previously guaranteed money. Orton doesn't have any, and an RFA tender keeps him in that same position.

And Delhomme's deal is looking like one of the biggest bad deals in all of sports, it is in no way a trend setting contract, just like Barry Zito's stupid ass contract from the San Fran Giants did not set a new minimum for any halfway decent pitcher.

I guess it depends on what you mean when you say you want a "bargain" from Orton. Player contracts are always on an upward trend as the salary cap increases and agents look to get clients a deal that trumps previous deals. Yesterdays top level deal is todays "bargain."
A bargain is any guy taking less than what he could probably get on the open market to stay with his current team. Orton will be all but forced to give the Broncos something of a bargain, if he wants a new deal before the end of the 2010 season when he'll truly be a free agent (or franchise tagged). That is the nature of extending a player before he actually hits the market, if you're willing to pay full market value then why not let the market set his contract for you?

The real question is if Orton, already giving that kind of bargain to the Broncos, would be amenable to giving an additional discount because he wants to stay here in Denver. Fair market for him is probably $10M AAV. Because he'll likely be an RFA this off-season that means he should be signable for a little less, about $9M AAV. If he's willing to give an additional discount to make sure he stays in Denver and that the Broncos can remain as financially competitive as possible? We're talking $8M or so. Of course the team can reward those kinds of good natured discounts by giving more guaranteed money, if they're sure he's their guy.

You're wrong. There are too many unknowns at the QB spot to play that kind of game. Orton is not going to ask for Manning money, of course, but the Cassel deal is probably a good indicator of what he'll sign for. If McDaniels does what you suggest it will be pure hubris and probably alienate a lot of players.
That same kind of thinking is why people where sure McDaniels would cave to Cutler and do what was necessary to patch that relationship up. How did that end?

It isn't hubris, its acknowledging that no player is greater than the team, that no one is replaceable. New England has let some great players walk over the last decade because the finances didn't work out well for them anymore, but the collective mindset of "give it all for the team" still remains strong as ever there.

Eldorado
10-21-2009, 09:39 AM
I'm in. Sign him.

SonOfLe-loLang
10-21-2009, 09:54 AM
Orton's levelheadedness cannot be understated. In the regular season, he's always looked calm during tense situations andhas come through with good reads and accurate throws in these situations. I think i read somewhere that, normally, on the play that scored the last touchdown, Stokely isn't even really in the progression. But Orton calmly located him and delivered a strike. His astronomical 4th quarter rating says it all.

Now will he have some poor games? I'm sure he will, he's human, John Elway had plenty. But we've already seen what he's capable of...and in some really big spots. So, Ithink the Trent Dilfer comparisons were a little premature. He's not just a caretaker, i think he can really be a difference maker.

Beantown Bronco
10-21-2009, 10:02 AM
I don't know which stat I love more:

His home record (18-2)
His overall win loss record (27-12) or
His red zone TD:INT ratio (31-2)

BroncoInferno
10-21-2009, 10:05 AM
Drek, I just realized that as a player with 5 years of service or more, Orton will not be eligible for restricted free agent status. He will be unrestricted. That means that if we don't lock him up we either have to frachise him (average of top 5 paid QBs) or transition tag him (average of top 10 paid QBs). Either way, your plan to make him play for "peanuts" in 2010 unless he signs a "bargain" deal isn't happening.

baja
10-21-2009, 10:09 AM
Orton will be under a tag, we'll have him locked up for a second year regardless of what he wants, and it'll be a low dollar RFA tag.

Its not like Orton is going to leave a $95M total value deal on the table. That kind of deal isn't out there for him. A 5 year, $45M deal with $20M guaranteed is still stupid money and Orton leaves the organization with the financial means to keep his supporting cast.

Tom Brady has played much of his career at well below market value for the Patriots, until recently his AAV was always between $8-$10M. He's got three rings.

If Orton won't take that kind of discount then yes, McDaniels will just move on. We'll draft a QB fairly early, Orton will play 2010 for peanuts, and we'll have a groomed second year QB ready to take his place in 2011.

This is exactly right. This business attitude will ensure success for the broncos every year. I love the way this organization is planning for the future. Do you think it is luck that the Patriots challenge every year? Now we have that same mind set here. It's going to be fun to be a Broncos fan for a long time. Pat Bowlen hit a grand slam home run with Josh McDaniels.

Beantown Bronco
10-21-2009, 10:12 AM
Drek, I just realized that as a player with 5 years of service or more, Orton will not be eligible for restricted free agent status. He will be unrestricted. That means that if we don't lock him up we either have to frachise him (average of top 5 paid QBs) or transition tag him (average of top 10 paid QBs). Either way, your plan to make him play for "peanuts" in 2010 unless he signs a "bargain" deal isn't happening.

Not true. He needs 6 years, not 5, to be unrestricted if 2010 remains uncapped.

http://www.cincyjungle.com/2009/1/16/725767/q-and-a-about-the-nfl-s-up

Q. What determines an unrestricted free agent in the uncapped year?

A. In capped seasons (2008 and 2009), a player whose contract has expired becomes an unrestricted free agent if he has four or more accrued seasons. In the uncapped year (2010), a player whose contract has expired becomes an unrestricted free agent only if he has six or more accrued seasons. An unrestricted free agent is free to sign with any club with no compensation owed to his old club.

BroncoInferno
10-21-2009, 10:18 AM
Not true. He needs 6 years, not 5, to be unrestricted if 2010 remains uncapped.

http://www.cincyjungle.com/2009/1/16/725767/q-and-a-about-the-nfl-s-up

Q. What determines an unrestricted free agent in the uncapped year?

A. In capped seasons (2008 and 2009), a player whose contract has expired becomes an unrestricted free agent if he has four or more accrued seasons. In the uncapped year (2010), a player whose contract has expired becomes an unrestricted free agent only if he has six or more accrued seasons. An unrestricted free agent is free to sign with any club with no compensation owed to his old club.

Is it definite that 2010 will be an uncapped year? I didn't think that settled yet.

TailgateNut
10-21-2009, 10:20 AM
I don't know which stat I love more:

His home record (18-2)
His overall win loss record (27-12) or
His red zone TD:INT ratio (31-2)

Love em all, they wont get jealous.

Beantown Bronco
10-21-2009, 10:24 AM
Is it definite that 2010 will be an uncapped year? I didn't think that settled yet.

Not settled yet, but that's how it stands if nothing changes.

If they do come to a new agreement, than all of our class of 2006 guys (Marshall, Dum, Kuper, etc) will become UFA's.....not just Orton. He'll almost be the least of our worries if that happens.

BroncoInferno
10-21-2009, 10:27 AM
It isn't hubris, its acknowledging that no player is greater than the team, that no one is replaceable. New England has let some great players walk over the last decade because the finances didn't work out well for them anymore, but the collective mindset of "give it all for the team" still remains strong as ever there.

It easy to look at McD's success with Brady, Cassel, and now Orton and conclude that he can plug anybody back there and have success. Hell, I don't doubt that McD probably could plug in Simms or maybe even Brandstater and they would put up decent-to-good numbers. But that only goes so far. Would Simms be able to lead the team in crunch time the way we've seen Orton? Would he lead us on a 98 yard drive for a tying score in the 4th against a quality opponent. That's when the QB thing threatens to become hubris. That's when the close games we've been been winning in the 4th quarter could become losses.

I compare it with Shanny's plug-and-play RB system. It became hubris the last few seasons. Sure, we still put up good yardage numbers, but how many times did we see the running game get stone walled in big games against quality defenses? How many times did we see the run game bog down in the redzone the last few seasons? I mean, Michael Pittman was our 2nd most effective RB last season and the guy is now playing in the UFL. Shanny squeezed some production out of him, more than likely anyone else would have, but that approach failed in crucial situations (again, I am talking about the last few seasons). That is sort of thing that could happen to this team if McD decides that he can just go cheap at the QB position.

baja
10-21-2009, 10:34 AM
Two different questions here.



For me, the NFL exists solely to entertain. I give money (jerseys, hats, tickets, tv subscriptions) and in return I get 3 hours of entertainment each week. This value increases as I grant my loyalty to a team - I gain a psychologically vested interest. I became a fan of the Broncos in the mid-to-late eighties. I knew almost nothing about football but I certainly enjoyed the comeback antics of John Elway. That was a good time. The first Superbowl win is hard to beat in terms of entertainment.

After Elway retired each season became about hope that a qb would come along who could prove as entertaining. I think that was why many fans were happy to have Jake. He brought back some entertainment after the dink and dunk Griese years. Sadly, he didn't pan out as he could not consistently put together the drama with big wins. With the drafting of Cutler, I again felt the excitement of what might be. Big arm plays and the ability to come back from anything ala the Elway years. It remains to be seen if he will ever develop into a quarterback that consistently delivers the entertainment of Elway. He at least had the potential.

That brings me back to Orton. He has no potential to become the kind of quarterback that drew me into football as a form of entertainment. That is my gripe against him and why I do not support him as a long-term answer.

As for your second question.




He has shown me nothing to indicate he will not be successful. I think he will continue to do well. If it were only about the wins then I would have no need to watch the games. I could just check NFL.com after the game in order to have a good time.

You issue is not with Orton but with your lack of knowledge of the game, Orton and the Broncos have plenty of reasons to watch & enjoy the games. The defense alone is worth the investment of time.

baja
10-21-2009, 10:36 AM
There will always be a market for a QB under 30 who is coming off a very successful season. If he ends up with 23 TDs and 4 INTs or something like that, someone who needs a QB will pay him. He will have alternatives. Plus, I already explained to you that the market for Cassel was questionable as well...Bellichek stated that the deal he took was the only one he received. Cassel got paid big money anyway. You think Delhomme at 34 and coming off a disastrous playoff performance would have been in high demand? He got big money anyway. Bottom line: proven NFL starting QBs get paid an ass of money. It won't be any different from Orton.

I will be surprised if he doesn't get a new contract by mid season. It would be the smart thing to do.

Drek
10-21-2009, 10:41 AM
Drek, I just realized that as a player with 5 years of service or more, Orton will not be eligible for restricted free agent status. He will be unrestricted. That means that if we don't lock him up we either have to frachise him (average of top 5 paid QBs) or transition tag him (average of top 10 paid QBs). Either way, your plan to make him play for "peanuts" in 2010 unless he signs a "bargain" deal isn't happening.

Its six years accrued years of service time, FYI, and this is Orton's 5th.

BroncoInferno
10-21-2009, 10:42 AM
Its six years accrued years of service time, FYI, and this is Orton's 5th.

In an uncapped year, yes. If a new bargaining agreement is reached, it will be 5 years.

TheReverend
10-21-2009, 10:44 AM
THere are a few people who still have doubts about Orton.

I get it, I do. I mean, he really didn't do much in no-man's land...er I mean Chicago (except win, but whatever).

This is an honest question that I want to hear your takes on. I wont refute or bash anything you say (what others do or say is not up to me, remember that) I just want to know the mindset of my fellow Bronco fans who remain doubters.

At this point, if you are still unsure about Orton as a long-term or even semi-long term solution to the QB position in Denver, why? What doubts and reserves do you still have? What has Orton shown this season in this system that tells you he cannot be a successful QB in the NFL and with teh Broncos?

Good thread.

My concerns with Kyle Orton were pre-game 5 concerns.

Weeks 1-4 it was the receivers making plays, and many times, off poorly thrown balls (YAC% was through the roof at historic levels during this stretch). I know we can point to the glove, but the glove wasn't on early in the pre-season when he was zipping 3mph fast balls three yards past the LOS every pass.

However, weeks 5-6, HE has been the one making as many plays as his receivers are doing for him.

Everyone is gonna have down weeks, and I expect it to happen to Kyle here and there... but if he can consistently show that he's more the guy that showed up in week 5 or 6, and not the passer weeks 1-4, I'm fully on board with Kyle as the QBOTF.

Popps
10-21-2009, 10:45 AM
At this point, if you are still unsure about Orton as a long-term or even semi-long term solution to the QB position in Denver, why? What doubts and reserves do you still have? What has Orton shown this season in this system that tells you he cannot be a successful QB in the NFL and with teh Broncos?

I love the guy, but I've been unsure if he's a long-term answer.

That said, he's certainly making a case for himself. For me it's just a larger sample size. Just like people shouldn't have written this team off before we played a game... I'll need more than 6 games to know that Orton is a long-term answer.

That doesn't mean I'm not confident in him. I definitely am, and especially as cool as he's been in these past couple of big games.

I'm very close to being on board with him as a viable long-term solution. I just want to see him develop a bit more. Plus, like Plummer... we'll need to have the right pieces in place for it all to work with him.

I was happy we landed him. Wasn't sure what to expect and he's showing us that he's capable of good things, maybe big things .

TheReverend
10-21-2009, 10:46 AM
Definitely don't see the Griese comparisons.

He reminds ME of a smarter, safer Jake Plummer with significantly less mobility athleticism.

Beantown Bronco
10-21-2009, 10:49 AM
In an uncapped year, yes. If a new bargaining agreement is reached, it will be 5 years.

That's a guess and not a fact. You can't predict what a contract is going to say before the first draft has even been written, much less signed. For all we know the new CBA could mandate 6 years, or 7 or 8.....

Popps
10-21-2009, 10:50 AM
It easy to look at McD's success with Brady, Cassel, and now Orton and conclude that he can plug anybody back there and have success. .

I'd disagree with that.

First off... Shanahan had the most success with Portis and Davis, two very talented backs. Mike Anderson and Olandis Gary were very talented runners for our particular scheme. Certainly the scheme helped these backs, but I've never agreed with the notion that you could just "plug anyone in," and they'd be great. We saw a lot of backs NOT have great success in our system, as well.

As for McD... Brady is a quality QB, obviously. Cassel appears to be, as well. Orton was a winner in Chicago and now he's winning in Denver.

I'm not saying great coaches and systems don't help QBs. They clearly do. But, put Pat Ramsey in this system and he wouldn't be able to hang. Orton has qualities about him that make him effective in this offense. (As does Brady/Cassel.)

Point being, simply because a QB is working within a system doesn't mean said QB doesn't have a high level of talent, and that he's replaceable.

Drek
10-21-2009, 10:50 AM
In an uncapped year, yes. If a new bargaining agreement is reached, it will be 5 years.

Its 3 under the current CBA actually, but that won't matter because the two sides (ownership and PA) aren't even having serious discussions on a new deal yet. The chances they get a new CBA in place for the next off-season is almost zero. They might have a framework by the Super Bowl, but it won't be in time to be in effect and they'll just have it go in place for the 2011 season.

Popps
10-21-2009, 10:53 AM
Definitely don't see the Griese comparisons.

He reminds ME of a smarter, safer Jake Plummer with significantly less mobility athleticism.


The Griese comparisons are going to be made by people that simply don't understand the game.

Brian Griese had terrible football instincts. He had absolutely no pocket presence and he routinely threw ill-advised balls because he couldn't figure out what he was looking at. He was also a questionable leader and lacked the qualities you generally see in championship caliber QBs.

The Griese comparisons come from people that can't see past arm strength. It's the same reason people call Cutler a "franchise" QB. If you ONLY look at ball-speed, sure... Cutler is a great QB. If you look at everything else, he's not ****.

Same for Griese/Orton. The similarities stop with the fact that they throw (threw) similar balls as far as speed. (I'd argue that Orton throws a better ball.) But, that's the end of the similarity. They are NOTHING like each other outside of that.

TheReverend
10-21-2009, 10:55 AM
The Griese comparisons are going to be made by people that simply don't understand the game.

Brian Griese had terrible football instincts. He had absolutely no pocket presence and he routinely threw ill-advised balls because he couldn't figure out what he was looking at. He was also a questionable leader and lacked the qualities you generally see in championship caliber QBs.

The Griese comparisons come from people that can't see past arm strength. It's the same reason people call Cutler a "franchise" QB. If you ONLY look at ball-speed, sure... Cutler is a great QB. If you look at everything else, he's not ****.

Same for Griese/Orton. The similarities stop with the fact that they throw (threw) similar balls as far as speed. (I'd argue that Orton throws a better ball.) But, that's the end of the similarity. They are NOTHING like each other outside of that.

I agree with all of this post except for two things:

- The slam against people who see him as a better Griese

- I do think Cutler is a great QB

BroncoInferno
10-21-2009, 11:05 AM
I'd disagree with that.

First off... Shanahan had the most success with Portis and Davis, two very talented backs. Mike Anderson and Olandis Gary were very talented runners for our particular scheme. Certainly the scheme helped these backs, but I've never agreed with the notion that you could just "plug anyone in," and they'd be great. We saw a lot of backs NOT have great success in our system, as well.

As for McD... Brady is a quality QB, obviously. Cassel appears to be, as well. Orton was a winner in Chicago and now he's winning in Denver.

I'm not saying great coaches and systems don't help QBs. They clearly do. But, put Pat Ramsey in this system and he wouldn't be able to hang. Orton has qualities about him that make him effective in this offense. (As does Brady/Cassel.)

Point being, simply because a QB is working within a system doesn't mean said QB doesn't have a high level of talent, and that he's replaceable.

Well, you can't be a talentless clod, certainly, but there are systems where guys with an ordinary skill set can be more successful than they otherwise would be. I disagree completely about Anderson and Gary. I don't think either were more than backups if they never landed in Denver. I mean, last season we played a guy who was selling cell phones a few weeks earlier and still finished 11th in yards. But, and this is my point, despite the decent looking numbers our running game was not very effective when we most needed it to be. I think that is what we might find if McD did what Drek wants and forces Orton to take a "bargain" deal or we move on to someone else.

I think McD has a QB friendly system in place where a lot of guys could come in and post decent-to-good numbers. But where most QBs fail is when they're asked to lead the team in crunch time. There aren't many QBs who are consistently successful at that. This is the point I was making to Drek about avoiding hubris. If you have a QB who shows an acumen for coming through with the game on the line as Orton has, you don't want to mess with that. That's when close games against quality opponents turn into Ls instead of Ws.

azbroncfan
10-21-2009, 11:25 AM
It's funny how the correlation between the TD to INT ratio equates into wins. Look at the 2005 season for example which was Jakes best year for that vs the years he threw a lot of TDs but came with a lot of picks. As long as Orton keeps the other team from catching his footballs Denver will keep winning. A couple things I see him do better than Cutler is

1. Not forcing the ball to Marshall or double coverage creating INT's and throwing it away.

2. He is better at going through his progressions and finding the third or 4th WR or RB on checkdown.

3. I think his presnap reads are better and that he throws out of shotgun better.

4. His 30 TD to 2 INT stat in the redzone for his career has to be up with the best in the game and Jay isn't even close here.

I honestly don't think this team would be 6-0 with the TO machine Jay is. Denver has won some close games and the TO's would of cost Denver probably 2 games.

Rock Chalk
10-21-2009, 11:52 AM
Is it definite that 2010 will be an uncapped year? I didn't think that settled yet.

Its not settled but its extremely unlikely that they get a deal done in time. We are like 99% sure to have an uncapped 2010 year.

Taco John
10-21-2009, 12:00 PM
the griese comparisons are going to be made by people that simply don't understand the game.


:rofl:

Rock Chalk
10-21-2009, 12:02 PM
Two different questions here.



For me, the NFL exists solely to entertain. I give money (jerseys, hats, tickets, tv subscriptions) and in return I get 3 hours of entertainment each week. This value increases as I grant my loyalty to a team - I gain a psychologically vested interest. I became a fan of the Broncos in the mid-to-late eighties. I knew almost nothing about football but I certainly enjoyed the comeback antics of John Elway. That was a good time. The first Superbowl win is hard to beat in terms of entertainment.

After Elway retired each season became about hope that a qb would come along who could prove as entertaining. I think that was why many fans were happy to have Jake. He brought back some entertainment after the dink and dunk Griese years. Sadly, he didn't pan out as he could not consistently put together the drama with big wins. With the drafting of Cutler, I again felt the excitement of what might be. Big arm plays and the ability to come back from anything ala the Elway years. It remains to be seen if he will ever develop into a quarterback that consistently delivers the entertainment of Elway. He at least had the potential.

That brings me back to Orton. He has no potential to become the kind of quarterback that drew me into football as a form of entertainment. That is my gripe against him and why I do not support him as a long-term answer.

As for your second question.




He has shown me nothing to indicate he will not be successful. I think he will continue to do well. If it were only about the wins then I would have no need to watch the games. I could just check NFL.com after the game in order to have a good time.

I get your reasoning. I disagree with the premise that the QB is the only reasons to be excited about watching Bronco's football or that a QB has to make dramatic plays to keep me interested.

I'd also disagree that Orton isn't exciting to watch. The 4th quarter, specifically in the last two games, Orton has given Bronco fans plenty of excitement. His two 90+ yard drives against New England were chalk full of football drama. His clutchness in the second half of games this year - especially after the glove has come off - is FAR more exciting to me than Cutler. For the first time SINCE ELWAY I do not get worried in the 4th quarter. I just know we are going to win. I know Orton isn't going to screw us over. That brings a level of excitement for me that is difficult to explain.

I think your issue is, you find the long ball exciting. That's a valid issue. If that's what you love about football, Orton is not ever going to please you. The long ball is exciting, I cannot argue that, but more exciting to me, and a great many other people, is a ferocious defense and a great run game. I'd rather see a score of 23-3 than 38-39. Shootouts are fun, but are never going to be a recipe for long term success.

Rohirrim
10-21-2009, 12:04 PM
I have always been a defense oriented football fan. This is like starving for years and finally getting some meat for me. What the long ball is for some people, sacks are for me. I'm loving this big time.

baja
10-21-2009, 12:11 PM
The Griese comparisons are going to be made by people that simply don't understand the game.

Brian Griese had terrible football instincts. He had absolutely no pocket presence and he routinely threw ill-advised balls because he couldn't figure out what he was looking at. He was also a questionable leader and lacked the qualities you generally see in championship caliber QBs.

The Griese comparisons come from people that can't see past arm strength. It's the same reason people call Cutler a "franchise" QB. If you ONLY look at ball-speed, sure... Cutler is a great QB. If you look at everything else, he's not ****.

Same for Griese/Orton. The similarities stop with the fact that they throw (threw) similar balls as far as speed. (I'd argue that Orton throws a better ball.) But, that's the end of the similarity. They are NOTHING like each other outside of that.

Griese is not going to make the TD throw to Tony Shef. in the SD game.

That play for me is the marker when Orton became a force and not just a manager in Denver.

Think back to pre season, if orton continues to improve imagine what he can become.


How good can he be???

Taco John
10-21-2009, 12:21 PM
I'm ok with "losing" this argument because nobody really remembers the Griese who went to the Pro Bowl for us. He made some pretty great throws way back then. But post-shoulder injury Griese made it easy to forget the guy who teammates rallied around, and who ultimately gave up his career to win a game for this team against the Raiders.

But, once the shoulder was gone, and once the offensive line and defense dried up, so was any semblance of leadership. At the end of the day, leadership means being able to do your job too, and post-shoulder injury Griese couldn't do it.

Right now Orton is riding high doing all the same kinds of things that we're seeing Orton do right now. For my part the comparison to Griese isn't a negative one, because I remember the pre-shoulder injury Griese. I remember the excitement that this fan base felt. It was exactly like what we're seeing now for Orton.

I think Orton has a better team around him than Griese ever had, and expect that Orton has it in him to win a Superbowl for us (with this team). But I think my buddy was right: if our defense was half as good as it is right now (and our offense produced exactly the same), Orton would be one of the most criticized players on the team.

I wouldn't be criticizing him, though. I'm just commenting that he would be widely criticized.

Rock Chalk
10-21-2009, 12:29 PM
Division race: Over.

My doubts about the Broncos: Over.

The Broncos and McDaniels are proving to many people, me included, that we have no idea what to expect each and every NFL season. Anybody outside the Rocky Mountain region not named McDaniels who thought this would be a playoff team is lying worse than that balloon fool.

It just occurred to me you copied this from Pete Prisco's power rankings this week.

kappys
10-21-2009, 12:31 PM
I'm ok with "losing" this argument because nobody really remembers the Griese who went to the Pro Bowl for us. He made some pretty great throws way back then. But post-shoulder injury Griese made it easy to forget the guy who teammates rallied around, and who ultimately gave up his career to win a game for this team against the Raiders.

But, once the shoulder was gone, and once the offensive line and defense dried up, so was any semblance of leadership. At the end of the day, leadership means being able to do your job too, and post-shoulder injury Griese couldn't do it.

Right now Orton is riding high doing all the same kinds of things that we're seeing Orton do right now. For my part the comparison to Griese isn't a negative one, because I remember the pre-shoulder injury Griese. I remember the excitement that this fan base felt. It was exactly like what we're seeing now for Orton.

For my part, I think Orton has a better team around him than Griese ever had, and expect that Orton has it in him to win a Superbowl for us (with this team). But I think my buddy was right: if our defense was half as good as it is right now (and our offense produced exactly the same), Orton would be one of the most criticized players on the team.

For my part, I wouldn't be criticizing him. I'm just commenting that he would be widely criticized.

You are spot on here Taco. Pre injury Griese certainly didn't have a strong arm but had enough to get the job done. His ability to make the right reads along with a talented cast around him lead to a tremendous season.

Once he separated the shoulder he could never get the same zip on the ball. The problem wasn't always his reads - but he had to float the ball there leading to either an INTor the receiver getting killed.

Rohirrim
10-21-2009, 12:34 PM
On the one hand, I respected Griese for the toughness he showed in that Chicago game, but on the other hand, he threw the INT that ended TD's career.

TailgateNut
10-21-2009, 12:34 PM
I'm ok with "losing" this argument because nobody really remembers the Griese who went to the Pro Bowl for us. He made some pretty great throws way back then. But post-shoulder injury Griese made it easy to forget the guy who teammates rallied around, and who ultimately gave up his career to win a game for this team against the Raiders.

But, once the shoulder was gone, and once the offensive line and defense dried up, so was any semblance of leadership. At the end of the day, leadership means being able to do your job too, and post-shoulder injury Griese couldn't do it.

Right now Orton is riding high doing all the same kinds of things that we're seeing Orton do right now. For my part the comparison to Griese isn't a negative one, because I remember the pre-shoulder injury Griese. I remember the excitement that this fan base felt. It was exactly like what we're seeing now for Orton.

For my part, I think Orton has a better team around him than Griese ever had, and expect that Orton has it in him to win a Superbowl for us (with this team). But I think my buddy was right: if our defense was half as good as it is right now (and our offense produced exactly the same), Orton would be one of the most criticized players on the team.

For my part, I wouldn't be criticizing him. I'm just commenting that he would be widely criticized.

Please spare me the GrieseDrool. I'd take Gus "I ram my head into walls"Frerotte any day over MR Cement Feet.

BTW: we also torched his jersey (just like BabyJay's)

gyldenlove
10-21-2009, 12:37 PM
Definitely don't see the Griese comparisons.

He reminds ME of a smarter, safer Jake Plummer with significantly less mobility athleticism.

He reminds me of a smarter slower Plummer as well, he is down to earth, he is a winner and he is a guy his teammates love. Plummer wasn't going to give Peyton Manning a run for his money but the guy knew how to win, I see a lot of the same in Orton, he is no Drew Brees but damn he is a winner.

The thing that is important to remember is that not losing is half of winning, you can throw 5 TDs, but if you also have 5 turnovers you are not going to win every game. If you have 2 TDs and no turnovers you are much more likely to succeed.

Orton has a good attitude as well, he takes well to coaching and keeps the other players in the game.

TheReverend
10-21-2009, 12:39 PM
He reminds me of a smarter slower Plummer as well, he is down to earth, he is a winner and he is a guy his teammates love. Plummer wasn't going to give Peyton Manning a run for his money but the guy knew how to win, I see a lot of the same in Orton, he is no Drew Brees but damn he is a winner.

The thing that is important to remember is that not losing is half of winning, you can throw 5 TDs, but if you also have 5 turnovers you are not going to win every game. If you have 2 TDs and no turnovers you are much more likely to succeed.

Orton has a good attitude as well, he takes well to coaching and keeps the other players in the game.

This, and with a nearly identical arm as well. Accurate in the intermediate passes most of the time and puts a lot of air under deep balls.

Taco John
10-21-2009, 12:42 PM
Don't forget the neck beard and stringy hair. ;)

Tombstone RJ
10-21-2009, 12:42 PM
If people want to make comparisons with Orton to other QBs, I'm thinking he's similar in physical ability to Eli Manning.

In fact, I'd say Eli Manning is a solid comparison in physical ability/make up and perhaps in personality too. Eli Manning doesn't make a lot of mistakes, he also doesn't have a rocket arm. He plays well under pressure for the most part but he's not gonna wow you with his arm or his legs.

Taco John
10-21-2009, 12:44 PM
Personally, I think the Plummer comparison is bunk for this reason: Orton can throw from the pocket and doesn't need to be on the move to make an accurate throw. If I was Popps, I would say something like "the Plummer comparisons are going to be made by people that simply don't understand the game." But that's such a douchey thing to say, that I'll just say that comparing Orton to a guy who couldn't throw from the pocket but was one of the more mobile QBs of our day doesn't seem like an apt comparison to me.

Taco John
10-21-2009, 12:45 PM
If people want to make comparisons with Orton to other QBs, I'm thinking he's similar in physical ability to Eli Manning.

In fact, I'd say Eli Manning is a solid comparison in physical ability/make up and perhaps in personality too. Eli Manning doesn't make a lot of mistakes, he also doesn't have a rocket arm. He plays well under pressure for the most part but he's not gonna wow you with his arm or his legs.


I agree with this comparison as well.

HEAV
10-21-2009, 12:53 PM
I don't know which stat I love more:

His home record (18-2)
His overall win loss record (27-12) or
His red zone TD:INT ratio (31-2)



His red zone TD:INT ratio (31-2)

Not to mention he hasn't taken a sack in the redzone this year. If it's not there or the heat is coming Orton get's rid of the ball and plays for the next down.

It's sad how so many people still want to find the next Elway,Marino,Peyton,Montana...hope's/pray'n the team will use a high round selection on a QB. But that will take time to develope and Orton is getting better, his arm is strong enough and his head can handle the entire playbook, blitz pickup and alignment of the offense!

People calling for a gun just don't understand this offense. It's not about the deep ball every 1.5 snaps. It's about attacking the under, middle and corners. It's about getting teh ball into the wideouts hands, using the running backs to attack flats and screens.

Orton has the perfect arm and head for this offense.

listopencil
10-21-2009, 01:06 PM
It's funny to hear the goofy stuff the uneducateds say about players in the game!
Orton is not anybody's long term solution. He has been playing safe and efficient, and to my suprise his mechanics have benefited from Josh's coaching but he is no where near a great QB. Having said that here are a few things that are suprising:

I don't know what it is but he does seem to be getting better. It is inexpicable to me but the guy has stepped up his game. The QB Coaching he's getting does seem to be helping his mechanics some and he seems to methodically run this new offense.

He doesn't have a great arm and compared to most not even a good arm, but he has improved in not throwing the sloppy pass. He stioll misses the longer touch passes but he has improved on..for example..the touch pass on the fade to the corner of the endzone ie to Sheffler. Earlier in the first few games he couldn't hit that to save him and Josh was ripping him for it!

He is defying all the rules...and it vexes me, confuses me! He isn't that bright, he isn't mobile at all, and his armstrength is subpar to say the least, but it is working! He just keeps going along and WINNING! You go back and watch Chicago games and even though he played OK it was always the ST or D that bailed him out, and he didn't come through in the pressure situations. Even The first couple of games we won inspite of him and dozens of sloppy passes. Can't say that anymore, and it defies logic! I don't see Orton being a long term solution..he just doesn't have the skills, but he will be our guy till we can find a guy with the most baffling skill Orton has of all...WINNING!

I submit to you the following points to ponder...

1) Tom Brady had problems with his mechanics when he entered the league. He was coached up and nobody but an idiot would say that he can't make every throw he needs to now. Perceived "arm strength" is more about mechanics than physical strength. Besides that-it's all about what's between the QB's ears in this system, not how "strong" the guy's arm is.

2) Our WR's as a group have not run good routes all year. Gaffney has looked the most consistent and Stokely has done all right. Marshall is coming along nicely and Royal is being mugged now that he's starting to get it. It's getting better, but it's been a work in progress. Orton can't make maximum production throws unless the WR's do their jobs too.

3) Our short yardage run game sucks ass. I mean huge amounts of ass. When we absolutely need 2 yards...or 1 yard...or 6 inches....nothing. Stuffed. That's a pretty good sign that the run game is being helped by the pass game.

Bottom line: He is that bright, his arm is "strong" enough and he's mobile enough to perform at the position. He's also a solid guy that his team mates respond to well. I think TJ hit it right on the head. He plays like pre-injury Griese. I'll go a step farther and say he has a somewhat Plummer-esque personality. I liked how Griese played before his injury. I loved Plummer's attitude. I'm pretty happy with Orton. If he's our QB for a while I'm fine with it.

TheReverend
10-21-2009, 01:08 PM
Personally, I think the Plummer comparison is bunk for this reason: Orton can throw from the pocket and doesn't need to be on the move to make an accurate throw. If I was Popps, I would say something like "the Plummer comparisons are going to be made by people that simply don't understand the game." But that's such a douchey thing to say, that I'll just say that comparing Orton to a guy who couldn't throw from the pocket but was one of the more mobile QBs of our day doesn't seem like an apt comparison to me.

Strong point that I didn't even think of.

Houshyamama
10-21-2009, 01:38 PM
I don't understand the bagging on Orton's arm. With all the talk of his inferior arm I was expecting something like Pennington but from what I've seen I can honestly say he has a pretty good arm. Not JaMarcus Russel/Jay Cutler/Brett Favre strong, but strong enough to make pretty much every throw, and ACCURATELY.

I'm sorry to say it (I don't particularly know why I'm sorry to say it but I am just a little because I hate him so much), but he reminds me of an early version of Tom Brady. To me their arms are very similar as are their styles of play when Kyle Orton now is compared to early-2000's Tom Brady.

Beantown Bronco
10-21-2009, 01:43 PM
1) Tom Brady had problems with his mechanics when he entered the league. He was coached up and nobody but an idiot would say that he can't make every throw he needs to now. Perceived "arm strength" is more about mechanics than physical strength. Besides that-it's all about what's between the QB's ears in this system, not how "strong" the guy's arm is.

Certainly didn't hurt that he put on about 30 pounds of muscle his first year with the Pats. Someone should post that combine pic of him again. It's pretty comical.

broncocalijohn
10-21-2009, 01:48 PM
I love Jay Cutler and want to have his baby.....if Simms wont knock me up first! Signed BroncoMcBuff :)

Finished it for ya!

Drek
10-21-2009, 02:06 PM
The best comp for how Orton is playing right now, a comparison I've made before and a lot of people on here probably don't like hearing, is Rich Gannon circa 2000-2002. High completion percentage passing. Since Orton lost the glove he's faced Dallas, New England, and San Diego. Three pretty good defenses. Wait until he gets to play a cupcake D (in like two months). He might not miss a completion.

Taco John
10-21-2009, 02:09 PM
I don't understand the bagging on Orton's arm. With all the talk of his inferior arm I was expecting something like Pennington but from what I've seen I can honestly say he has a pretty good arm. Not JaMarcus Russel/Jay Cutler/Brett Favre strong, but strong enough to make pretty much every throw, and ACCURATELY.

I'm sorry to say it (I don't particularly know why I'm sorry to say it but I am just a little because I hate him so much), but he reminds me of an early version of Tom Brady. To me their arms are very similar as are their styles of play when Kyle Orton now is compared to early-2000's Tom Brady.


When people complain about Orton's arm, I think what they're talking about is the amount of air that Orton puts under his deep ball. I personally think that it's a minor concern given that this offense doesn't rely on the deep ball to win games -- or at least it hasn't needed to yet.

baja
10-21-2009, 02:10 PM
His red zone TD:INT ratio (31-2)

Not to mention he hasn't taken a sack in the redzone this year. If it's not there or the heat is coming Orton get's rid of the ball and plays for the next down.

It's sad how so many people still want to find the next Elway,Marino,Peyton,Montana...hope's/pray'n the team will use a high round selection on a QB. But that will take time to develope and Orton is getting better, his arm is strong enough and his head can handle the entire playbook, blitz pickup and alignment of the offense!

People calling for a gun just don't understand this offense. It's not about the deep ball every 1.5 snaps. It's about attacking the under, middle and corners. It's about getting teh ball into the wideouts hands, using the running backs to attack flats and screens.

Orton has the perfect arm and head for this offense.

This

...and also it's about playing smart, this is a smart team on both sides of the ball they are making good decisions in live time. That's why we are owning the 4th quarter, well that and conditioning.

Rock Chalk
10-21-2009, 02:51 PM
It doesn't matter. Delhomme got ridiculous money from Carolina, too (and this after crapping the bed in the playoffs). He got #20 million guaranteed at 34 years of age. Whether you feel Cassel was overpaid or not is irrelevant. It sets a precedent for what other QB agents will look to secure for their clients. And QB is unique from any other position in that if you don't sign the quality guy you have you really have no other alternatives except to hope to get lucky with a retread or unproven bench warmer.

No, it doesnt.

The only times money precedents are set is when legit superstars land huge deals.

Roddy White set a precedent for example, for WRs of similar skill level (what Brandon Marshall was after).

Delhomme did not set a precedent with his deal, and neither will Cassell. Teams intrinsically know when other teams overpaid and agents know it too. Orton's agent will not go after a deal like Cassell's deal UNLESS he manages to take us to and win the Superbowl and becomes Superbowl MVP because he was so freakin awesome. IN which case he most certainly earned it.

baja
10-21-2009, 02:57 PM
No, it doesnt.

The only times money precedents are set is when legit superstars land huge deals.

Roddy White set a precedent for example, for WRs of similar skill level (what Brandon Marshall was after).

Delhomme did not set a precedent with his deal, and neither will Cassell. Teams intrinsically know when other teams overpaid and agents know it too. Orton's agent will not go after a deal like Cassell's deal <b>UNLESS he manages to take us to and win the Superbowl and becomes Superbowl MVP because he was so freakin awesome. IN which case he most certainly earned it.

I'm guessing McD is planning on that contingency (Really good season by Orton) that's why I think you will see Orton signed soon unless Orton's side thinks they will be able to get a better deal by waiting. I hope we compromise and make a deal.

Broncos4tw
10-21-2009, 04:13 PM
I dunno what it is about him. I expect us to do worse because of him, but we don't. I expect his numbers to be lower than they are each week. He is VERY not-flashy. He is dare I say... a very boring QB. He is also incredibly effective.

He probably scrambles eggs better than he scambles on the field.

His passes have more zip sans glove, but they are still hardly lasers. He hasn't shown much touch (although that pass to Shef was sweet).

So.. I am not completely sold, because I worry if he can carry this team on his shoulders if he needs do. If we lose a lineman, can he avoid getting sacked? If he is forced to throw into tough coverage.. can he? But so far, he just gets the job done.. which I think most weeks, is all we need. Playoffs may be another story.

epicSocialism4tw
10-21-2009, 04:26 PM
THere are a few people who still have doubts about Orton.

I get it, I do. I mean, he really didn't do much in no-man's land...er I mean Chicago (except win, but whatever).

This is an honest question that I want to hear your takes on. I wont refute or bash anything you say (what others do or say is not up to me, remember that) I just want to know the mindset of my fellow Bronco fans who remain doubters.

At this point, if you are still unsure about Orton as a long-term or even semi-long term solution to the QB position in Denver, why? What doubts and reserves do you still have? What has Orton shown this season in this system that tells you he cannot be a successful QB in the NFL and with teh Broncos?

Well, we havent seen the NFL's adjustment to Orton yet. This league is one of brainless copycats. If a defensive coordinator or two can force Orton into turning the ball over or taking sacks, then Orton could be exposed.

However, this system is new and Orton is adapting to it (as well as the new teammates) as well. He should be better this time next year, and better would mean having a QB rating in the top 5.

I dont think that Orton can throw the deep ball, and I think that that makes things more difficult for the run game. However, if he keeps hitting the outs, the slants, and the hooks then he will be able to continue to make a difference here.

The offense has yet to really establish a rhythm. When they get to that point, I would expect to see Cutler perform better at the beginning of games as well as the end.

DeusExManning
10-21-2009, 04:40 PM
Taco, I have always respected your opinion but Orton is nothing Like Griese or Deberg, that is completely ridiculous. Biggest reason? Third down conversions, Griese could not convert a 3rd and 5 EVER. Steve Deberg threw a lot of interceptions and fumbled the ball.

OABB
10-21-2009, 04:42 PM
The best comp for how Orton is playing right now, a comparison I've made before and a lot of people on here probably don't like hearing, is Rich Gannon circa 2000-2002. High completion percentage passing. Since Orton lost the glove he's faced Dallas, New England, and San Diego. Three pretty good defenses. Wait until he gets to play a cupcake D (in like two months). He might not miss a completion.

this. and no i don't like hearing it. I still hate gannon. At least Orton thorws the ball more than 3 yards from time to time.

epicSocialism4tw
10-21-2009, 04:42 PM
Personally, I think the Plummer comparison is bunk for this reason: Orton can throw from the pocket and doesn't need to be on the move to make an accurate throw. If I was Popps, I would say something like "the Plummer comparisons are going to be made by people that simply don't understand the game." But that's such a douchey thing to say, that I'll just say that comparing Orton to a guy who couldn't throw from the pocket but was one of the more mobile QBs of our day doesn't seem like an apt comparison to me.

The Plummer comparison is one of leadership, competitiveness, and toughness. Plummer was too stubborn to learn, but that stubbornness also imbedded in him a refusal to lose. I think that people see that wild fire in Orton as well. Thats about where the comparisons end.

I dont see any similarities between Orton and Manning other than the fact that they prefer to be pocket passers. Manning delivers the ball well in more places on the field.

Bronx33
10-21-2009, 04:54 PM
I was on orton early on mostly on his dangerous passes into coverage and his complete lack of sensing defensive pressure allowing himself time to escape and making a little more time to find a receiver. But i will say hes been addressing these issues and looks alot more comfortable at QB vs the first two games where he was really late at getting out of a shrinking pocket and getting sacked and throwing to a double covered receiver vs simply throwing it away.

baja
10-21-2009, 05:01 PM
The best comp for how Orton is playing right now, a comparison I've made before and a lot of people on here probably don't like hearing, is Rich Gannon circa 2000-2002. High completion percentage passing. Since Orton lost the glove he's faced Dallas, New England, and San Diego. Three pretty good defenses. Wait until he gets to play a cupcake D (in like two months). He might not miss a completion.

True Derk and I agree with the Eli Manning comparison another poster made as well.

I think all of Bronco nation breathed a collective sigh of relief when Marty benched Gannon for our famous playoff game with KC.

Taco John
10-21-2009, 05:11 PM
Taco, I have always respected your opinion but Orton is nothing Like Griese or Deberg, that is completely ridiculous. Biggest reason? Third down conversions, Griese could not convert a 3rd and 5 EVER. Steve Deberg threw a lot of interceptions and fumbled the ball.

With regards to point #1:
In 2000, the year Griese went to the pro bowl for us, he threw 60 for 90 on third downs (66.7 percent), and threw 7 touchdowns on third downs for a 109.6 third down QB rating.

To contrast that, Orton, who will probably go to the pro bowl if he keeps this pace, has thrown 36 for 58 (62.1 percent), and thrown an impressive 4 TDs on third downs for a 104.5 third down QB rating.


With regards to point #2:
Steve Deberg currently holds the record for fewest interceptions thrown in a 16 game season: 4. He threw 23 TDs that year. Alec (er, Rock Chalk) projected Orton's numbers for the season, and they virtually project to this.

Taco John
10-21-2009, 05:11 PM
I think all of Bronco nation breathed a collective sigh of relief when Marty benched Gannon for our famous playoff game with KC.

I know I did. Gannon had a way of giving us fits.

Popps
10-21-2009, 05:15 PM
When people complain about Orton's arm, I think what they're talking about is the amount of air that Orton puts under his deep ball. I personally think that it's a minor concern given that this offense doesn't rely on the deep ball to win games -- or at least it hasn't needed to yet.

All the deep ball needs to be able to do is keep defenses honest, and get the ball to your play-makers when they have mismatches.

Certainly, it's great if you're blessed with a P. Manning who can sling 45 yard darts into a bread-basket, but 99% of teams out there just aren't going to have that luxury.

Pittsburgh and NE didn't win their SBs throwing bombs. (Though the addition of Moss made it more regular, of course.) They won them with defense and a very tough, efficient passing game headed by QBs who made the big throws at crucial moments. By big throws, I'm talking about Orton hitting Eddie Royal at the end of the Dallas game for the first down. Not a highlight reel pass/catch, but the type of gigantic, game-shifting completion that separates NFL quarterbacks.

Rivers looks like **** throwing a football. He's also 10X the QB Cutler will ever be. The guy makes big throws at big times and takes care of the football. (At least thus far in his career.)

baja
10-21-2009, 05:22 PM
With regards to point #1:
In 2000, the year Griese went to the pro bowl for us, he threw 60 for 90 on third downs (66.7 percent), and threw 7 touchdowns on third downs for a 109.6 third down QB rating.

To contrast that, Orton, who will probably go to the pro bowl if he keeps this pace, has thrown 36 for 58 (62.1 percent), and thrown an impressive 4 TDs on third downs for a 104.5 third down QB rating.


With regards to point #2:
Steve Deberg currently holds the record for fewest interceptions thrown in a 16 game season: 4. He threw 23 TDs that year. Alec (er, Rock Chalk) projected Orton's numbers for the season, and they virtually project to this.

Your right TJ, Griese had that one great year and as you also point than he got his shoulder and nerve destroyed in that Oakland game and was never the same but wouldn't you compare Griese that one season to Gannon too.

I think you can favorably compare Orton to Griese (pro bowl year) and Eli Manning and Gannon.

Taco John
10-21-2009, 05:24 PM
I don't see the Gannon comparison because of Gannon's mobility. He didn't like to pass in the pocket either, but as he aged, he got better and better at it.

I think Gannon compares more favorably to a driven Plummer than to Orton.

baja
10-21-2009, 05:30 PM
I don't see the Gannon comparison because of Gannon's mobility. He didn't like to pass in the pocket either, but as he aged, he got better and better at it.

I think Gannon compares more favorably to a driven Plummer than to Orton.

You're right about the mobility but when he played in Oakland (what a stupid move that was for KC) if I remember right he did most of his damage from the pocket in Gruden's system.

Taco John
10-21-2009, 05:38 PM
You're right about the mobility but when he played in Oakland (what a stupid move that was for KC) if I remember right he did most of his damage from the pocket in Gruden's system.

I think the comparison that you're making is more system related than quarterbacking styles - but that's just my take.

BroncoBuff
10-21-2009, 06:00 PM
The best comp for how Orton is playing right now, a comparison I've made before and a lot of people on here probably don't like hearing, is Rich Gannon circa 2000-2002.
Gannon 2000-2002 ... why not? That makes sense ... Gannon was always good with KC, but he went through the roof in Callahan's system.

Why can't that be the template for Orton? Proper coaching/system makes him a top 10 quarterback.

baja
10-21-2009, 06:18 PM
I think the comparison that you're making is more system related than quarterbacking styles - but that's just my take.

I don't get your takes sometimes TJ Hell Chicago Orton didn't even look like Orton in Denver.

The way Gannon played the game during his time in oakland was very similar to the way Orton plays today with similar skill set. Of course is is going to be system related also.

Drek
10-21-2009, 08:39 PM
I don't see the Gannon comparison because of Gannon's mobility. He didn't like to pass in the pocket either, but as he aged, he got better and better at it.

I think Gannon compares more favorably to a driven Plummer than to Orton.

That is why I said 2000-2002 Gannon, when he'd lost some of that mobility but not the overall game, and turned into a quick, precise distributor of the football.

Griese, even at his peak, lived more on his accuracy throwing the ball than finding the right read time and time again. Orton, like Gannon during his peak with the Raiders, just has a way of sensing that open man and getting the ball to them when the defense is least ready for it.

But then Griese is a good comparison for a very small window in a lot of ways as well. Gannon's skill set is what Shanahan was looking for out of Griese, and had largely coached out of him for a brief stretch before he blew his shoulder apart.

Drek
10-21-2009, 08:43 PM
Gannon 2000-2002 ... why not? That makes sense ... Gannon was always good with KC, but he went through the roof in Callahan's system.

Why can't that be the template for Orton? Proper coaching/system makes him a top 10 quarterback.

Gruden's system actually, the Bucs defense even joked about how Callahan didn't even change the audibles from when Gruden ran the team the season before.

Its why John Gruden is the only coach to ever get two teams to the Super Bowl in the same year. :D

As for Orton, Buff that is what I've been telling you all off-season. Orton's skills fit McDaniels offense, which has been proven to be an elite offense in the NFL when ran optimally. Drew Brees isn't a top 5 QB if he had to run some variation on the WCO, but in Sean Payton's spread he's elite. Its all about fits. Orton is a fit here, in this system. He might not be an ideal fit but then he very well might. Give him time and we could be very surprised with what he is capable of doing.

mhgaffney
10-21-2009, 08:50 PM
I liked Plummer -- but as we saw -- in the key game in 2005 he got flustered and choked.

Orton looks as though he can take the team all the way. But you never know until it happens. That's the rest of the season is for...

BroncoBuff
10-21-2009, 09:00 PM
Gruden's system actually, the Bucs defense even joked about how Callahan didn't even change the audibles from when Gruden ran the team the season before.
That was Gruden's offense? I always thought it was Callahan's.

Glad the Cornhuskers didn't know about that ...


As for Orton, Buff that is what I've been telling you all off-season. Orton's skills fit McDaniels offense, which has been proven to be an elite offense in the NFL when ran optimally. Drew Brees isn't a top 5 QB if he had to run some variation on the WCO, but in Sean Payton's spread he's elite. Its all about fits. Orton is a fit here, in this system. He might not be an ideal fit but then he very well might. Give him time and we could be very surprised with what he is capable of doing.You did say that, in fact I think you broke down why Orton was better for Josh than Jason Campbell, even before the trade. Actually, almost every specific thing you've said in the offseason has been correct, like Nolan making Dumervil a star, which you said I think the day Nolan was hired, right up through sticking by Orton through a dismal preseason.

Maybe I should start listening to you more :~ohyah!:

TheReverend
10-21-2009, 09:13 PM
That was Gruden's offense? I always thought it was Callahan's.

Glad the Cornhuskers didn't know about that ...

In some special (probably their America's Team?), they even mention that Lynch was calling out the Raiders plays at the LOS.

BroncoBuff
10-21-2009, 09:14 PM
In some special (probably their America's Team?), they even mention that Lynch was calling out the Raiders plays at the LOS.
I remember that ... stupid Al Davis.

What might have happened had he and Gruden patched things up?

Drek
10-21-2009, 09:19 PM
In some special (probably their America's Team?), they even mention that Lynch was calling out the Raiders plays at the LOS.

Yep. Great example of how ****ed up the Raiders are.

Sad thing is it still goes on there. Their defense is so vanilla that people in the secondary have complained about WRs lining up opposite them and telling them what their coverage is. They where rather vocal about it after the beating we threw for them at home a few weeks back.

What a beautiful mess that team is, surprise win over the igles or not.

Rock Chalk
10-21-2009, 09:30 PM
With regards to point #1:
In 2000, the year Griese went to the pro bowl for us, he threw 60 for 90 on third downs (66.7 percent), and threw 7 touchdowns on third downs for a 109.6 third down QB rating.

To contrast that, Orton, who will probably go to the pro bowl if he keeps this pace, has thrown 36 for 58 (62.1 percent), and thrown an impressive 4 TDs on third downs for a 104.5 third down QB rating.


With regards to point #2:
Steve Deberg currently holds the record for fewest interceptions thrown in a 16 game season: 4. He threw 23 TDs that year. Alec (er, Rock Chalk) projected Orton's numbers for the season, and they virtually project to this.
24 and 2.3 is what Orton is on pace for BUT, I expect it to be closer to 30 TDs. I can only hope he remains on pace for 2.3 picks :).

I expect the TD number to go up because the gloved Orton skewed the stats. The ungloved Orton has been much better and has thrown 2 TDs in both games without the glove. It was obvious that with the glove AND the splint he really struggled.

Now I hope his picks dont go up but Im sure he's bound to have a bad game at some point this season where he does throw an interception or two. It happens to even the best QBs. However, if he continues the current level of play with throwing no real interceptions (because we all know his one pick isnt a real pick even though it counts in the stats), 24/1 will be fine by me. That would be the single greatest season by a QB ever as far as TD/INT ratio by a very large margin.

Taco John
10-21-2009, 09:32 PM
Hell Chicago Orton didn't even look like Orton in Denver.



Actually, I think he did. I watched a lot of Chicago games last year because of Matt Forte (my number one pick in my keeper league), which is a big reason I wasn't one of the ones panicking when we traded for him. He, of course, looks much better in this system which is suits his skill set (it's essentially the same system he played in at Purdue), but I think it's a stretch to say there is a night and day difference between the two years. I think the real difference is the offensive line and receivers.

BroncoBuff
10-21-2009, 09:43 PM
Hard to reconcile what I think about Al Davis ... I want to keep hating him, but the Showtime "Full Color Football: History of the AFL" series really brought home what a critical force he was in the 60s.

As commissioner of the AFL, he first started, and then prodded up the bidding wars. Without him, no way no merger, never. And in fact, Al was really ticked off that Lamar Hunt met secretly with Schramm and Rozelle to finalize the merger. Al thought they had the NFL "right where they wanted them."

Anybody miss that 5-part series on Showtime, you gotta sign up for Netflix opr something just to see it. Pretty amazing.

hambone13
10-21-2009, 10:26 PM
Certainly didn't hurt that he put on about 30 pounds of muscle his first year with the Pats. Someone should post that combine pic of him again. It's pretty comical.

This highlights my largest concern with Orton, potential for injury. He needs to get in the gym. I think he's one blind sack away from a broken, ripped or torn....whatever.

bdv
10-21-2009, 10:57 PM
What doubts and reserves do you still have? Arm strength, and accuracy at times. I don't know if it's his arm strength or that the timing just isn't perfect yet, but the defenders are able to deflect too many of his passes. He gets good protection with some damn good receivers, so I think his accuracy could be a higher. However, with the glove off and time to get to know his team and the system, these issues seem to be improving. What has Orton shown this season in this system that tells you he cannot be a successful QB in the NFL and with teh Broncos? Nothing! Orton is very good!!! He's a winner. With minimal injuries, I see nothing stopping us from the Super Bowl!

Now, what's the word on the extra pics we got from the trade? Anyone hear or read how they're coming along?

fontaine
10-22-2009, 04:47 AM
I'm ok with "losing" this argument because nobody really remembers the Griese who went to the Pro Bowl for us. He made some pretty great throws way back then. But post-shoulder injury Griese made it easy to forget the guy who teammates rallied around, and who ultimately gave up his career to win a game for this team against the Raiders.


1. Yes, I do remember. Griese played great for a handful of games. Kudos to him for that but he never repeated it again.

2. I call BS on that last sentence. Yes, Griese showed great toughness in that win against the Raiders with his torn shoulder, but it WAS NOT a career ending thing. Brees got his shoulder and rotator cuff crippled by Lynch and ended his season. Funny thing though, Brees with similar arm strength to Griese came back from that injury and became one of the best in the game. Greise went to a journeymen backup QB who did squat.

But, once the shoulder was gone, and once the offensive line and defense dried up, so was any semblance of leadership. At the end of the day, leadership means being able to do your job too, and post-shoulder injury Griese couldn't do it.

Wrong again. Immediately after the shoulder was gone Frerrote, OF ALL QBs, stepped in and slung the ball around for 300 yard games and it was Frerrote that finished the season and helped us into the playoffs. It was under Frerrote that we made the run to finish with a wild card spot NOT Griese. That offense was awesome with Eddie/Rod in their prime and a superb OL from the SB years. So I guess Frerrote had enough leadership and Griese didn't according to your post above.

Right now Orton is riding high doing all the same kinds of things that we're seeing Orton do right now. For my part the comparison to Griese isn't a negative one, because I remember the pre-shoulder injury Griese. I remember the excitement that this fan base felt. It was exactly like what we're seeing now for Orton.

No wrong again. Orton is distributing the ball more than Griese every did. Orton is winning more often than Griese did and he's doing it in a different offensive system with a lesser rushing game.

I think Orton has a better team around him than Griese ever had, and expect that Orton has it in him to win a Superbowl for us (with this team). But I think my buddy was right: if our defense was half as good as it is right now (and our offense produced exactly the same), Orton would be one of the most criticized players on the team.

I wouldn't be criticizing him, though. I'm just commenting that he would be widely criticized.

I don't care about hypotheticals.