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View Full Version : McBath is an absolute animal


TheReverend
10-19-2009, 07:49 PM
Not playing like a rookie. Especially at such a cerebral position.

Couldn't be more impressed by a rookie safety.

Popps
10-19-2009, 07:50 PM
He's learning from the best!

hambone13
10-19-2009, 07:50 PM
Absolutely, I've been very impressed as well.

SportinOne
10-19-2009, 08:39 PM
While I wouldn't say he's been a monster, he's looked good out there. Most importantly, he hasn't gotten burnt or missed a big tackle. That's all you can ask for.

Drek
10-19-2009, 08:57 PM
Not playing like a rookie. Especially at such a cerebral position.

Couldn't be more impressed by a rookie safety.

Crazy that he's not able to see the field on anything but STs without injuries, huh?

Excellent athlete and he's disproving those scouting reports that said he wasn't a willing tackler.

STBumpkin
10-19-2009, 08:58 PM
This D has talent and coaching

tsiguy96
10-19-2009, 08:58 PM
they put barrett out on gates 2nd half right?

TheReverend
10-19-2009, 09:01 PM
Crazy that he's not able to see the field on anything but STs without injuries, huh?

Excellent athlete and he's disproving those scouting reports that said he wasn't a willing tackler.

Only on this team. He'd start anywhere else.

I gotta hand it to Hill. The guy's playing damn near PERFECT as a cover safety. I was dead wrong on that guy.

Goodman I'm still not too fond of. He's playing better than I anticipated and good football at that but lots of room for improvement still.

TheReverend
10-19-2009, 09:08 PM
they put barrett out on gates 2nd half right?

It was mixed coverage, but he played man on him a LOT in both halves.

Nailed it, btw:

Gates is still the #1 TE match up problem, and I have honestly no idea who we'll decide can execute against him. Dawkins can't imo, Haggan and Dum don't stand a chance. Maybe a special package with Barrett playing him?
I dunno. I think we win this and like the other match-ups, but I don't see the answer for Gates.

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showpost.php?p=2606153&postcount=2

theAPAOps5
10-19-2009, 09:11 PM
Dude one of my worries was B Dawk getting hurt. No more. McBath straight manned up. I loved it!

Another player quietly making plays is Robert Ayers. He is coming along as well!

TheReverend
10-19-2009, 09:13 PM
Dude one of my worries was B Dawk getting hurt. No more. McBath straight manned up. I loved it!

Another player quietly making plays is Robert Ayers. He is coming along as well!

He is.

By next year we should have THE best LB corp in the NFL by a large margin

epicSocialism4tw
10-19-2009, 09:13 PM
Crazy that he's not able to see the field on anything but STs without injuries, huh?

Excellent athlete and he's disproving those scouting reports that said he wasn't a willing tackler.

What I have noticed most about him is that he's a good tackler with his arms. He can tackle while contorted in difficult positions at odd angles to the ball carrier. He has an intuitive feel for taking angles to the ball and he can fight through the wash and get to the ball well for a guy his size.

He's also pretty bright and can track the ball while its in the air.

He's much different than Dawkins obviously, and we missed Dawkins while he was out. I think that McBath would qualify as a "ballhawk". Different from B-Dawk, but not bad.

I have been watching him on special teams, and he has stood out. The guys that stand out on special teams usually make contributions as field players.

epicSocialism4tw
10-19-2009, 09:14 PM
He is.

By next year we should have THE best LB corp in the NFL by a large margin

Partly because DJ has been outstanding this year. He's playing at an All-Pro level right now.

Andre Davis has been solid as well as a punishing run stopper.

SportinOne
10-19-2009, 09:19 PM
Dawkins being out is another story. Notice the Chargers did basically all of their scoring while he was on the sideline. McBath played well but Dawkins changes the defense.

TheReverend
10-19-2009, 09:33 PM
Dawkins being out is another story. Notice the Chargers did basically all of their scoring while he was on the sideline. McBath played well but Dawkins changes the defense.

More coincidence than anything, imo.

A. Multiple guys were out. Not just Dawk.

B. Our 2nd half adjustments have been crushing all season

C. This isn't meant to diminish what he's accomplished on this team whatsoever.

Rock Chalk
10-19-2009, 09:37 PM
I have a question.

Have any of you seen anythign like the gold we struck this offseason?

Davis, Holiday, McBean, Fields, Dawkins, McBath, Smith, Goodman, Hill, Buckhalter, Gaffney, hell even Jordan in his limited role.

Have ANY of you EVER seen anything like that? I mean we ****ing struck gold on damn near ever single acquisition this offseason.

baja
10-19-2009, 09:39 PM
The light is full on for DJ and I'm here to tell ya watch out from here on out he is a beast. what a great game he had.

TheReverend
10-19-2009, 09:44 PM
I have a question.

Have any of you seen anythign like the gold we struck this offseason?

Davis, Holiday, McBean, Fields, Dawkins, McBath, Smith, Goodman, Hill, Buckhalter, Gaffney, hell even Jordan in his limited role.

Have ANY of you EVER seen anything like that? I mean we ****ing struck gold on damn near ever single acquisition this offseason.

Guys I personally don't feel should be referred to as anything resembling gold:

McBean
Smith
Jordan

Guys I personally don't feel should be referred to as gold despite playing good football:

Goodman
Gaffney

Off-season acquisitions I loved in the off-season:

Davis
Moreno
Ayers
McBath

Ones I was dead wrong on:

Kyle Orton
Hill
Buckhalter
Fields (50%, loved the signing for depth, but not as a starter)

epicSocialism4tw
10-19-2009, 09:54 PM
Goodman has been rode hard and put up wet for 3 weeks in a row, but other than that McDaniels' batting average is probably better than Shanny's so far.

TheReverend
10-19-2009, 10:03 PM
Goodman has been rode hard and put up wet for 3 weeks in a row, but other than that McDaniels' batting average is probably better than Shanny's so far.

Eh. BS PI call. I don't hold that against him one bit.

epicSocialism4tw
10-19-2009, 10:05 PM
Eh. BS PI call. I don't hold that against him one bit.

If you dont hold that against him, you could hold about 5 other plays tonight plus the plethora of gaffes he has unfurled over the past 3 weeks.

TheReverend
10-19-2009, 10:07 PM
If you dont hold that against him, you could hold about 5 other plays tonight plus the plethora of gaffes he has unfurled over the past 3 weeks.

Those I do :)

He's been an above average and pretty consistent player though

epicSocialism4tw
10-19-2009, 10:11 PM
Those I do :)

He's been an above average and pretty consistent player though

He and Haggan have been the weak links on defense. Thankfully, our safeties are experienced and complementary to the other players on the field.

Dawkins and Hill have been the best two players brought into the defense. Those 2 guys + Bailey have made an outstanding secondary...best in the league.

TheReverend
10-19-2009, 10:16 PM
He and Haggan have been the weak links on defense. Thankfully, our safeties are experienced and complementary to the other players on the field.

Dawkins and Hill have been the best two players brought into the defense. Those 2 guys + Bailey have made an outstanding secondary...best in the league.

I disagree. I think Haggan has been great. Played great in spot duty last year too.

Can't understate Dawkins leadership ONE bit, but I think the best PLAYERS have been #1 Davis and #2 Hill

Bronco Warrior
10-19-2009, 10:17 PM
I love that McBath was able to come in and spell Dawkins, and that Dawkins was going ape****z on the Sideline cheering on the team. Also the guts to come back in and finish the game with a bad hammy! Goodmans coverage has been great but his tackling has been sad the last few games! :( Excellent Game! One for the ages!!

Broncosfreak_56
10-19-2009, 10:31 PM
He and Haggan have been the weak links on defense. Thankfully, our safeties are experienced and complementary to the other players on the field.

Dawkins and Hill have been the best two players brought into the defense. Those 2 guys + Bailey have made an outstanding secondary...best in the league.

I would argue Andra Davis is up there with Hill and Dawk.

Mediator12
10-19-2009, 10:35 PM
I have a question.

Have any of you seen anythign like the gold we struck this offseason?

Davis, Holiday, McBean, Fields, Dawkins, McBath, Smith, Goodman, Hill, Buckhalter, Gaffney, hell even Jordan in his limited role.

Have ANY of you EVER seen anything like that? I mean we ****ing struck gold on damn near ever single acquisition this offseason.

Yeah, its called the patriots system. This kid learned how to acquire talent as well as X's and O's in his eight years there. Oh God Forbid we call them the Denver Patriots ROFL!

TheReverend
10-19-2009, 10:37 PM
Yeah, its called the patriots system. This kid learned how to acquire talent as well as X's and O's in his eight years there. Oh God Forbid we call them the Denver Patriots ROFL!

Gotta make you wonder why Mangini, Crennel and Weiss never paid attention

Kaylore
10-19-2009, 10:40 PM
I was worried, especially when the trips right formation seemed to school him I figured "well we're screwed" but he finished very strong. Dawkins picked a good week to get a bit gimpy.

Mediator12
10-19-2009, 10:41 PM
Gotta make you wonder why Mangini, Crennel and Weiss never paid attention

Crennel was never the defensive mastermind, Weiss can not recruit from the full talent pool due to ND's strict academic standards, and well Mangini sold his soul to be a HC before he should have.

I said this before and I'll say it again, Josh McDaniels sold the system to Pat Bowlen. What is truly amazing is how fast he put it into place and acquired the talent to make it work.

TheReverend
10-19-2009, 10:44 PM
Crennel was never the defensive mastermind, Weiss can not recruit from the full talent pool due to ND's strict academic standards, and well Mangini sold his soul to be a HC before he should have.

I said this before and I'll say it again, Josh McDaniels sold the system to Pat Bowlen. What is truly amazing is how fast he put it into place and acquired the talent to make it work.

How are you feeling about Nolan and Dawkins?

He's found a PERFECT balance of playing to his strengths and completely removing his weakness while not letting it interfere with any of the other players.

Then he CHANGES the entire formula a decent amount when he went down to play up to what McBath can do.

Mind = Blown

We can't let him go.

Ever.

Hercules Rockefeller
10-19-2009, 10:45 PM
Gotta make you wonder why Mangini, Crennel and Weiss never paid attention

They were never given the same access to the personnel decision making process like McDaniels was.

baja
10-19-2009, 10:48 PM
I disagree. I think Haggan has been great. Played great in spot duty last year too.

Can't understate Dawkins leadership ONE bit, but I think the best PLAYERS have been #1 Davis and #2 Hill

Hill is the brains of the outfit a case can be made he is #1 but Doc has to be no lower than #2

BroncoMan4ever
10-19-2009, 10:55 PM
Crazy that he's not able to see the field on anything but STs without injuries, huh?

Excellent athlete and he's disproving those scouting reports that said he wasn't a willing tackler.

i think that can be attributed to Dawkins. you can't play like a bitch when a guy like Dawkins is the man you are there to learn from.

Mediator12
10-19-2009, 10:55 PM
How are you feeling about Nolan and Dawkins?

He's found a PERFECT balance of playing to his strengths and completely removing his weakness while not letting it interfere with any of the other players.

Then he CHANGES the entire formula a decent amount when he went down to play up to what McBath can do.

Mind = Blown

We can't let him go.

Ever.

I feel great about Nolan and Dawkins. However, do NOT forget that it is McDaniels who has been helping with the adjustments just as much as Nolan has when calling the plays! McDaniels has an extremely sharp mind for details and adjustments.

NE has been doing that for years. They find guys that CAN do something and then design everything around what those situational players can do in that situation. What we are seeing is the implementation of that in DEN, including all of the unbelieveable attention to detail that Belichick has demonstrated for years.

That, is what I think the previous Belichick disciples have been missing overall. They knew the system, but are not as sharp as the mentor. McDaniels is that sharp and he is very creative to boot. I loved this hire when it happened and I am really glad to see him succeed !Booya!

Rock Chalk
10-19-2009, 11:04 PM
Yeah, its called the patriots system. This kid learned how to acquire talent as well as X's and O's in his eight years there. Oh God Forbid we call them the Denver Patriots ROFL!

I dont think the Patrios ever struck gold with THAT many acquisitions in one off season though Med.

Mediator12
10-19-2009, 11:16 PM
I dont think the Patrios ever struck gold with THAT many acquisitions in one off season though Med.

No, but neither have all those guys been GOLD either ;D

The thing is, McDaniels knew what they needed to make this work and went out and got it. Then, he got rid of everything that would not work. Just like MIA and Parcells did. And, just like ATL and Dmitroff did in one offseason. They totally retooled weak ass defenses and got the right amount of role/situational players. (BTW, Belichick comes from the Parcells tree and Dmitroff from the Belichick tree as well for reference). They proved a team can be rebuilt in one season and be a playoff caliber team.

What they did not have is a guy with McDaniels creativity and acumen as a Coach. Josh is truly as smart and dynamic as his mentor. His Offensive X's and O's are damn impressive, but he has had a HUGE hand in the formation of this defense as well.

alkemical
10-20-2009, 06:42 AM
I have a question.

Have any of you seen anythign like the gold we struck this offseason?

Davis, Holiday, McBean, Fields, Dawkins, McBath, Smith, Goodman, Hill, Buckhalter, Gaffney, hell even Jordan in his limited role.

Have ANY of you EVER seen anything like that? I mean we ****ing struck gold on damn near ever single acquisition this offseason.

Yes, 97 & 98.

Broncoman13
10-20-2009, 06:57 AM
Yeah, its called the patriots system. This kid learned how to acquire talent as well as X's and O's in his eight years there. Oh God Forbid we call them the Denver Patriots ROFL!

Wait, I thought you said we would be exposed about three weeks ago by the Cowboys running attack???

Steve Prefontaine
10-20-2009, 06:57 AM
So great to finally see some legitimate football discussion going on. Great thread.

Broncoman13
10-20-2009, 07:03 AM
The defensive adjustments have pretty much been on Mike Nolan. During the 9:00 the players are in the locker room at half time, Mike Nolan spends his time talking to the defense to make adjustments for the 2nd half. Josh McDaniels is with the offense during this time. Not to say he wouldn't or couldn't sit in the defensive meeting if he thought he needed to, but so far it has been Mike Nolan talking the 2nd half adjustments.

dbfan21
10-20-2009, 07:13 AM
McBath was solid last night and I have to give some major props to Bruton! He has been excellent on ST, especially punt and kick coverage. He is almost always in on the tackle.

_Oro_
10-20-2009, 07:27 AM
I have to add the usual Goodman is opposite of Champ so he's going to get burned occasionally.

Merlin
10-20-2009, 07:32 AM
Yeah, its called the patriots system.
The Patriots system has been braking for the past 2-3 seasons, especially in the draft. This has more to do with McD and Nolan (with the experience McD gained from Belicheat).

~Crash~
10-20-2009, 08:02 AM
I have a question.

Have any of you seen anythign like the gold we struck this offseason?

Davis, Holiday, McBean, Fields, Dawkins, McBath, Smith, Goodman, Hill, Buckhalter, Gaffney, hell even Jordan in his limited role.

Have ANY of you EVER seen anything like that? I mean we ****ing struck gold on damn near ever single acquisition this offseason.

1996 and 97

kingpants
10-20-2009, 08:10 AM
McBath was solid last night and I have to give some major props to Bruton! He has been excellent on ST, especially punt and kick coverage. He is almost always in on the tackle.

#30 right? He looked pretty fast as well. On Royals first return, he caught up with him as he was crossing the line. Pretty impressive speed.

Rock Chalk
10-20-2009, 08:21 AM
Guys I personally don't feel should be referred to as anything resembling gold:

McBean
Smith
Jordan

Guys I personally don't feel should be referred to as gold despite playing good football:

Goodman
Gaffney

Off-season acquisitions I loved in the off-season:

Davis
Moreno
Ayers
McBath

Ones I was dead wrong on:

Kyle Orton
Hill
Buckhalter
Fields (50%, loved the signing for depth, but not as a starter)

Rev, anything on the front 7 has been gold compared to last year.

Gold.

Did we sign a bunch of superstars? No. But do every single one of those aforementioned acquisitions play their role admirably in Denver? Ab-so-****ing-lutely.

Gold brother.

TotallyScrewed
10-20-2009, 08:24 AM
Only on this team. He'd start anywhere else.

I gotta hand it to Hill. The guy's playing damn near PERFECT as a cover safety. I was dead wrong on that guy.

Goodman I'm still not too fond of. He's playing better than I anticipated and good football at that but lots of room for improvement still.

Goodman only bugs me when he tries to lay lumber instead of making a sure tackle.

dbfan21
10-20-2009, 09:26 AM
#30 right? He looked pretty fast as well. On Royals first return, he caught up with him as he was crossing the line. Pretty impressive speed.

Yep, #30. He does have good speed and he has a nose for the ball and is a solid tackler. Good stuff!

Broncoman13
10-20-2009, 09:28 AM
Yep, #30. He does have good speed and he has a nose for the ball and is a solid tackler. Good stuff!

#30 is Bruton... SLACKERS!

McBath is 31

or were you guys talking about Bruton all along? It was Bruton that caught up with Eddie on the first return... You're confusing me, and it doesn't take much! ;)

epicSocialism4tw
10-20-2009, 04:56 PM
I disagree. I think Haggan has been great. Played great in spot duty last year too.

Can't understate Dawkins leadership ONE bit, but I think the best PLAYERS have been #1 Davis and #2 Hill

Dawkins is easily the best player the BBT brought in and its not even close.

TheReverend
10-20-2009, 04:57 PM
Dawkins is easily the best player the BBT brought in and its not even close.

I just meant on field play, not total package. If you understood that and disagree, I can still certainly understand your POV.

epicSocialism4tw
10-20-2009, 05:07 PM
I just meant on field play, not total package. If you understood that and disagree, I can still certainly understand your POV.

Dawkins can be credited with the Broncos' turnaround as much as anyone else.

Drek
10-20-2009, 07:27 PM
Gotta make you wonder why Mangini, Crennel and Weiss never paid attention

Crennel was always just Belichick's wingman on defense. He didn't get involved with the offense and he never actually ran the D entirely on his own (Belichick's specialty).

Weiss just doesn't have the mindset or temperament of a HC. He doesn't show enough commitment to the defense and while he calls a good game 90% of the time the other 10% most often comes in clutch situations. He also is being forced to draw from a smaller talent pool, but its still Notre Dame so he doesn't have too much of an excuse there.

Mangini was just completely not ready. He wasn't even the defensive play caller when he was the DC in NE and he was told by Belichick that he wasn't ready when he first got ready to leave.

McDaniels on the other hand started out as a defensive assistant, brought that viewpoint over when he became the QB coach, and called the offense for four years with a high degree of autonomy before leaving. He also passed on interviewing for jobs at the end of '07 and as a result Belichick gave him direct instruction on what he needed to be a great HC, something he's never done for another one of his assistants.

All that is ignoring McDaniels' sterling history prior to joining the Pats as well. He's got one hell of a coaching pedigree.

BroncoBuff
10-20-2009, 08:54 PM
Not trying to be a wet blanket, but McBath is getting few if any downs on defense ???

Bruton's out there on "big nickel," if that's what we're calling it now.

BroncoBuff
10-20-2009, 09:00 PM
I have a question.

Have any of you seen anythign like the gold we struck this offseason?

Davis, Holiday, McBean, Fields, Dawkins, McBath, Smith, Goodman, Hill, Buckhalter, Gaffney, hell even Jordan in his limited role.

Have ANY of you EVER seen anything like that? I mean we ****ing struck gold on damn near ever single acquisition this offseason.

That's one of the biggest stories, the free agent stuff anyway. It's not like these guys were in super high demand. I think it's that Nolan and Josh have excellent eyes for talent. It's as if nobody noticed how good guys like Fields, Haggan, Davis, Reid, Peterson and McBean were.


The draft part is not as impressive, not yet anyway. Knowshon and Ayers, sure ... but the rest have shown very little. It's still early, but this class has a very long way to go to achieve Goodman-like success.

TheReverend
10-20-2009, 09:06 PM
Not trying to be a wet blanket, but McBath is getting few if any downs on defense ???

Bruton's out there on "big nickel," if that's what we're calling it now.

What? Where? I haven't seen him yet.

You not mistaking him for #36 Josh Barrett who's playing the "big nickel" spot are you?

BroncoBuff
10-20-2009, 09:09 PM
What? Where? I haven't seen him yet.

You not mistaking him for #36 Josh Barrett who's playing the "big nickel" spot are you?

Both actually ... but no McBath. Not on defense, not that I've seen anyway.

TheReverend
10-20-2009, 09:37 PM
Both actually ... but no McBath. Not on defense, not that I've seen anyway.

Can anyone confirm or deny this?

I haven't seen Bruton take the field outside of ST since pre-season.

TheReverend
10-20-2009, 09:39 PM
Both actually ... but no McBath. Not on defense, not that I've seen anyway.

His 3 tackles are reflective of someone only playing ST.

BroncoBuff
10-20-2009, 09:48 PM
Well, Barrett has just 2 ... but I agree with you, Josh was out there quite a bit last night on defense.

TheReverend
10-20-2009, 09:53 PM
Well, Barrett has just 2 ... but I agree with you, Josh was out there quite a bit last night on defense.

If by "2" you mean "5", then yes, you're right.

BroncoBuff
10-20-2009, 09:56 PM
If by "2" you mean "5", then yes, you're right.

LOL ... when you're right, you're right.

bombay
10-20-2009, 09:57 PM
I have a question.

Have any of you seen anythign like the gold we struck this offseason?

Davis, Holiday, McBean, Fields, Dawkins, McBath, Smith, Goodman, Hill, Buckhalter, Gaffney, hell even Jordan in his limited role.

Have ANY of you EVER seen anything like that? I mean we ****ing struck gold on damn near ever single acquisition this offseason.


He's done his homework and drawn the correct conclusions in every other area, my inclination is to believe that this is more of the same. He has an applicable theory and understands the people he needs to implement it.

We got real lucky with this hire. Or, rather, Mr Bowlen knows precisely what he's doing.

BroncoBuff
10-20-2009, 10:06 PM
He's done his homework and drawn the correct conclusions in every other area, my inclination is to believe that this is more of the same. He has an applicable theory and understands the people he needs to implement it.
Jury is definitely out on the draft class, but the free agent class is a gold mine, you guys are right. Makes you wonder how other teams missed on guys like Andra, McBean, Fields, Peterson, Haggan, Reid, Hill, Buck, etc.. etc... there's alotta guys on this 6-0 team who were not in much demand.

Hercules Rockefeller
10-20-2009, 10:20 PM
The draft part is not as impressive, not yet anyway. Knowshon and Ayers, sure ... but the rest have shown very little. It's still early, but this class has a very long way to go to achieve Goodman-like success.

Most good teams that have actual depth, something this team hasn't had in a decade, get similar contributions from their rookies.


Through 6 games:
'06
Cutler and Kuper- yet to play
Marshall- 0 catches, Catch #1 came in game 7
Scheffler had caught 2 passes for 16 yds
Elvis didn't have a tackle for the first 4 games, and then had a 2-sack and then 3-sack performance the next two games.
Hixon- 7 punt returns and 12 kick returns the entire season, 0 receptions
Eslinger- PS

'07
Harris- yet to play
Thomas- 7 tackles
Moss- 12 tackles and a sack
Crowder- 1 tackle

'08
Clady and Royal- kicking ass from the get go
Lichtensteiger- getting in as an eligible lineman in short yardage situations
Jack Williams- 2 tackles
Ryan Torain- hadn't played yet
Carlton Powell- IR
Spencer Larson- his game logs aren't on ESPN or NFL for some reason, hadn't stepped in yet though
Barrett- hadn't played yet
Hillis- 3 carries for 14 yds and 1 catch for 5 yds, game 8 is when he started getting the ball

'09
Moreno- 99 carries for 381 and 9 catches for 68 yds, 2 total TDs
Ayers- 8 tackles, anyone who watches sees the contributions he's making that don't show up in the box score
A Smith- 6 tackles and 2 passes defended, 4 PRs and 1 KR
McBath- 12 tackles, 1 pick and 1 pass defended
Quinn- no stats, plays regularly as an extra blocker
Bruton- 3 tackles on special teams
Olsen- played a little I think
McKinley- 3 kick returns
Brandstater- hasn't played
Schulueter- cut in camp

We all know your love for the Goodmans actually exceeds your love for Jay, but let's come back to reality. No player drafted by the Goodmans, save Clady and Royal, were making any impact at this point in their rookie season.

In fact, I think you can argue that at this point, the '09 draft class is having more of an impact in their respective rookie season than either the '06 and '07 drafts, and the '08 draft had shown nothing besides the two starters.

BroncoBuff
10-20-2009, 10:26 PM
No player drafted by the Goodmans, save Clady and Royal, were making any impact at this point in their rookie season.
That's why I said "jury is out."

But we've already cut one guy, which never happened to Goodman.

BroncoBuff
10-20-2009, 10:29 PM
That's some damn good research though Herc ... ya kinda spoiled it with the "reality card" though.

outdoor_miner
10-20-2009, 10:31 PM
Both actually ... but no McBath. Not on defense, not that I've seen anyway.

What? It was definitely McBath that came in for Dawkins. #31 was on the field a ton in the 2nd quarter. I have yet to see Bruton take the field on D.

KevinJames
10-20-2009, 11:05 PM
31 is McBath and that is who came in playing and he was doing a great job.

Rock Chalk
10-20-2009, 11:09 PM
Jury is definitely out on the draft class, but the free agent class is a gold mine, you guys are right. Makes you wonder how other teams missed on guys like Andra, McBean, Fields, Peterson, Haggan, Reid, Hill, Buck, etc.. etc... there's alotta guys on this 6-0 team who were not in much demand.

THe jury is only out to you.

The two first round picks are getting substantial playing time. Fonz would be if he hadn't got injured and/or JMFW hadn't started to really shine.

McBath is playing behind two savvy veteran safeties.

Quinn was brought in as an extra blocking TE and has played solid STs (that is, he doesnt **** his lanes up like Hillis).

Your idiocy and hate knows no bounds.

Drek
10-21-2009, 03:25 AM
Not trying to be a wet blanket, but McBath is getting few if any downs on defense ???

Bruton's out there on "big nickel," if that's what we're calling it now.

Played from when Dawkins went down (late 1st quarter?) until Dawkins came back (beginning of the second half).

Rookie asked to step on the field and he not only maintained all his assignments but he stepped up and dropped Tomlinson on that 2nd and short run from behind. Wrapped him up and tore him down without letting him get a good lean forward.


The draft part is not as impressive, not yet anyway. Knowshon and Ayers, sure ... but the rest have shown very little. It's still early, but this class has a very long way to go to achieve Goodman-like success.

Thats kinda the point to why we have Dawkins, Hill, Goodman, Haggans, and Reid on defense and Graham, Hamilton, and Buckhalter on offense.

Teams who ask their rookies to fill several holes in the starting lineup often find that come mid-season a few of those holes are still glaring weaknesses. The method McDaniels is applying is to sign known quantity veterans who can definitely do the jobs asked of them, draft a layer of depth behind them, and let the young players grow into the role of full time players as the veterans fade.

There is something to be said for the trial by fire approach, but that will happen soon enough. No team can avoid injuries in the NFL, we saw that in the first half on Monday night. But when a wave of injuries hit we rotated in some of that young depth and our defense stayed solid.

Its absolutely imperative that we start doing the same thing on the offensive and defensive lines, but the best value this past off-season was elsewhere. Now we should have the kind of depth in our back seven on defense and skill position players on offense that will let us focus very heavily on the trenches in next year's draft, which has a lot of good 3-4 DL talent in it.

dbfan21
10-21-2009, 05:37 AM
#30 is Bruton... SLACKERS!

McBath is 31

or were you guys talking about Bruton all along? It was Bruton that caught up with Eddie on the first return... You're confusing me, and it doesn't take much! ;)

Yea...I was throwing out some Bruton love in a McBath thread. He's been playing great and he deserved a nod.

OP:McBath was solid last night and I have to give some major props to Bruton! He has been excellent on ST, especially punt and kick coverage. He is almost always in on the tackle.

s0phr0syne
10-21-2009, 05:52 AM
After watching the 1st half again, to me it actually looked like McBath didn't play as well as you might expect. You heard his name a lot and he got in on a lot of tackles which was fine and good, but he looked out of position a bit too.

All of this is expected, and I'm not trying to knock him. But, for example, on the TD to VJax, it looked like McBath or someone else, can't remember who, both dropped into the same zone and left the opening around where VJax was uncovered for the TD. You also hear the commentary team (which is hardly reliable) say that there were a couple of different options on that play wide open.

That's only one play, and maybe he played well outside of it.

On re-watching, I was actually impressed with some of the tackles that Goodman made. They weren't authoritative by any means, but he saved some plays from going any longer, particularly on one of the Tomlinson carries to the offensive left side, and on the fake screen, naked dump to Antonio Gates. Goodman and Bailey really saved us from some of the plays going longer than they already had.

Was also impressed by Bruton's work on ST...really good long speed which I guess is expected.

errand
10-21-2009, 05:55 AM
I have a question.

Have any of you seen anythign like the gold we struck this offseason?

Davis, Holiday, McBean, Fields, Dawkins, McBath, Smith, Goodman, Hill, Buckhalter, Gaffney, hell even Jordan in his limited role.

Have ANY of you EVER seen anything like that? I mean we ****ing struck gold on damn near ever single acquisition this offseason.

Not since '96-'97 seasons when we acquired Bill Romanowski and Alfred Williams, Neil Smith, Darrien Gordon, Tyrone Braxton (1 year hiatus in Miami), Willie Green, Howard Griffith, Tony Jones, Derek Loville to name a few...

skpac1001
10-21-2009, 06:13 AM
Jury is definitely out on the draft class, but the free agent class is a gold mine, you guys are right. Makes you wonder how other teams missed on guys like Andra, McBean, Fields, Peterson, Haggan, Reid, Hill, Buck, etc.. etc... there's alotta guys on this 6-0 team who were not in much demand.

I don't know if any of those guys would have much of a impact on other teams (Dawkins excluded). I think the reason they are playing great is because the coaches take what they do well and put them in positions to succeed. I think we are going to have solid free agent pick-ups consistently because of the way the coaching staff uses players.

TheReverend
10-21-2009, 08:43 AM
We all know your love for the Goodmans actually exceeds your love for Jay, but let's come back to reality. No player drafted by the Goodmans, save Clady and Royal, were making any impact at this point in their rookie season.

In fact, I think you can argue that at this point, the '09 draft class is having more of an impact in their respective rookie season than either the '06 and '07 drafts, and the '08 draft had shown nothing besides the two starters.

Repped for a great post, and not to interfere with this point, because I agree with it, but I think Elvis come with a good chunk of sacks after game 4 his rookie year, and Crowder looked like a stud at this point his rookie season as well (I think he's playing some decent football for Tampa at the moment).

Regardless, draft class looks pretty solid thus far and your points made are all good ones.

underrated29
10-21-2009, 09:33 AM
bruton was with royal for BOTH returns. Obviously, you could see him there running up for the first one. But the second one, the punt, bruton once again comes up from the left side after finishing a block and follows him into the endzone.


Man has some wheels. I like.

skpac1001
10-21-2009, 09:47 AM
Repped for a great post, and not to interfere with this point, because I agree with it, but I think Elvis come with a good chunk of sacks after game 4 his rookie year, and Crowder looked like a stud at this point his rookie season as well (I think he's playing some decent football for Tampa at the moment).

Regardless, draft class looks pretty solid thus far and your points made are all good ones.

I still don't really understand keeping Moss over Crowder. You know you have a good coach when your complaints are as petty as this one, but it seems like Crowder has the body type and style of play that we want compared to Moss.

TheReverend
10-21-2009, 09:50 AM
I still don't really understand keeping Moss over Crowder. You know you have a good coach when your complaints are as petty as this one, but it seems like Crowder has the body type and style of play that we want compared to Moss.

Difficult to know.

Maybe Moss looked more fluid in coverage. Maybe Moss looked better against the run or rushing the passer. Maybe Moss's contract was more team friendly to keep and less of a cap hit. Maybe they felt Moss had more long term potential for depth.

underrated29
10-21-2009, 09:50 AM
I still don't really understand keeping Moss over Crowder. You know you have a good coach when your complaints are as petty as this one, but it seems like Crowder has the body type and style of play that we want compared to Moss.



couldnt agree more. Moss hasnt even been active has he?


Crowder- from when i watched him at tc and preseason, was constantly winning his battles. Applying pressure and or getting to the qb. I dont watch college football so i have no bias for players either. I just look at the players and judge by their performance. I still think it was a big mistake to let him go.

HOpefully he does well in tampa. For some reason, i heard they signed him and then cut him. But if he is playing best to him. Hope he makes us regret cutting him. (not by playing against us though)

TonyR
10-21-2009, 10:19 AM
You also hear the commentary team (which is hardly reliable) say that there were a couple of different options on that play wide open.


If you're talking about the play I think you are they were right on this point. I saw two guys wide open. This was a frequent problem in the first half.

Master___Pain
10-21-2009, 10:36 AM
I've seen it mentioned a few times, but Haggan was not a FA signing by this staff, he was here at the end of last season. Small point of clarification.

BroncoBuff
10-21-2009, 11:28 AM
THe jury is only out to you.

Your idiocy and hate knows no bounds.
You're the hate-master, so it must be true ... I must be an idiot :welcome:

Look, all I said was Josh's FA signings were genius, but "the jury's still out" on the draft class, at least compared to Goodman. And of course it's still out. We already lost one draftee before his rookie season started, which never happened to Goodman at any point. In fact, there's only four guys outta the league now for ALL THREE of Goodman's draft classes combined (Crowder, Eslinger, Torain, Powell). These are really just facts I'm stating, so try not to call me Satan, okay?

TheReverend
10-21-2009, 11:36 AM
You're the hate-master, so it must be true ... I must be an idiot :welcome:

Look, all I said was Josh's FA signings were genius, but "the jury's still out" on the draft class, at least compared to Goodman. And of course it's still out. We already lost one draftee before his rookie season started, which never happened to Goodman at any point. In fact, there's only four guys outta the league now for ALL THREE of Goodman's draft classes combined (Crowder, Eslinger, Torain, Powell). These are really just facts I'm stating, so try not to call me Satan, okay?

Crowder is playing (decently) for the Buccs and Jim Bates

The rest are out of football though (Powell semi recently released from Clevelands PS)

BroncoBuff
10-21-2009, 12:00 PM
Crowder is playing (decently) for the Buccs and Jim Bates
I didn't know that, good for him. Drek will be glad for the mojo.

I did notice on the Danta Wesley video our old friend Niko Kooootavides! How'd we let that one get away? :~ohyah!:


The rest are out of football though (Powell semi recently released from Clevelands PS)
I just don't get this ... he has the size and strength, and a gaudy - ridicuously gaudy - college record.

Six months ago I had Powell penciled in as a possible/probable starter. Anybody know where his game falls short?

TheReverend
10-21-2009, 12:05 PM
I didn't know that, good for him. Drek will be glad for the mojo.

I did notice on the Danta Wesley video our old friend Niko Kooootavides! How'd we let that one get away? :~ohyah!:



I just don't get this ... he has the size and strength, and a gaudy - ridicuously gaudy - college record.

Six months ago I had Powell penciled in as a possible/probable starter. Anybody know where his game falls short?

Too small for 3-4 NT. No viable pass rush skills to play end (why Cleveland cut him). And due to injury no real game film to showcase his strengths.

An ideal situation would be for him to stick to a 4-3 defense like the Colts that implements a strong, purely running stuffing DT at the zero, but they addressed their youth need at that position by drafting Fili Moala.

Rock Chalk
10-21-2009, 01:35 PM
You're the hate-master, so it must be true ... I must be an idiot :welcome:

Look, all I said was Josh's FA signings were genius, but "the jury's still out" on the draft class, at least compared to Goodman. And of course it's still out. We already lost one draftee before his rookie season started, which never happened to Goodman at any point. In fact, there's only four guys outta the league now for ALL THREE of Goodman's draft classes combined (Crowder, Eslinger, Torain, Powell). These are really just facts I'm stating, so try not to call me Satan, okay?

The jury is still out only to you.

Considering Herc already completely ****ing owned you on this topic in this thread, why you keep opening your yap is a miracle.

BroncoBuff
10-21-2009, 02:38 PM
The jury is still out only to you.

Considering Herc already completely ****ing owned you on this topic in this thread, why you keep opening your yap is a miracle.
Were six weeks in, genius. Jury's still out, practically by definition.

But I understand how simple minds want to make long-term, self-serving conclusions after just six games. Good luck with that.

BroncoBuff
10-22-2009, 09:34 PM
Considering Herc already completely ****ing owned you on this topic in this thread, why you keep opening your yap is a miracle.

Guess that ownership kinda changed hands now, eh? :~ohyah!:

Actually, it's possible this 2009 draft calss will compare wuith those. NOt likely, but possible. The mistake Herc made was limiting his research to just the first six games the previous draftees played, their longer term records provide much better data.

BroncoBuff
10-22-2009, 09:35 PM
Crowder is playing (decently) for the Buccs and Jim Bates
The rest are out of football though (Powell semi recently released from Clevelands PS)
Not for nothing, but Carlton Powell is on the Browns practice squad right now, and Tim Crowder has FOURTEEN tackles this season for Tampa Bay.

So then, in Goodman's three drafts, '06, '07 and '08 ... only Ryan Torain and Greg Eslinger are out of the league. That's an astonishing record, especially compared to the league-wide drafted players 06 thru 08 who are still employed, which I'm gussing is less than 50%.

Kinda makes you wonder how anybody could argue the point with me, but IO guess everybody has their own opinions. But Alec is probably right, I am an idiot for praising those draft classes.

Rock Chalk
10-22-2009, 09:35 PM
Were six weeks in, genius. Jury's still out, practically by definition.

But I understand how simple minds want to make long-term, self-serving conclusions after just six games. Good luck with that.

You said the Jury is still out and that Goodman's drafts were clearly superior to Xanders when Herc PROVED that Xanders first draft has produced more contributors from the start than ALL of Goodman's drafts combined did (6 games into their respective careers).

Id say thats a glowing ****ing start and you are still an idiot.

BroncoBuff
10-22-2009, 09:35 PM
Considering Herc already completely ****ing owned you on this topic in this thread, why you keep opening your yap is a miracle.

Guess that ownership kinda changed hands now, eh? :~ohyah!:

Actually, it's possible this 2009 draft calss will compare wuith those. Not likely, but possible. The mistake Herc made was limiting his research to just the first six games the previous draftees played, when their longer term records provide much better data.

Rock Chalk
10-22-2009, 09:40 PM
Guess that ownership kinda changed hands now, eh? :~ohyah!:

Actually, it's possible this 2009 draft calss will compare wuith those. Not likely, but possible. The mistake Herc made was limiting his research to just the first six games the previous draftees played, when their longer term records provide much better data.

He limited it to six you incredible ****ing moron because thats all the current crop has played.

Holy **** are you retarded or what?

theAPAOps5
10-22-2009, 09:44 PM
He limited it to six you incredible ****ing moron because thats all the current crop has played.

Holy **** are you retarded or what?

Thats a rhetorical question right? :)

BroncoBuff
10-22-2009, 09:45 PM
You said the Jury is still out and that Goodman's drafts were clearly superior to Xanders

I never said that. I can't say - nor would I say - nor did I say - that Goodman's drafts were superior. Why? Because I said "the jury's still out," remember? :approve:


I'd say thats a glowing ****ing start and you are still an idiot.
We're going much deeper here than just a "start." Yes Herc compared just the first 6 games, but there is so much more data on the other guys, so why limit yourself to three-year old information?

Look: Only TWO GUYS are outta the league from the TWENTY Goodman/Shanny drafted starting 3 1/2 years ago! The league-wide average for 06, 07 and 08 combined is almost certainly below 50%. So that's amazing, I'm surprised you disagree.

baja
10-22-2009, 11:02 PM
bruton was with royal for BOTH returns. Obviously, you could see him there running up for the first one. But the second one, the punt, bruton once again comes up from the left side after finishing a block and follows him into the endzone.


Man has some wheels. I like.

Ain't that the truth.

UberBroncoMan
10-22-2009, 11:22 PM
bruton was with royal for BOTH returns. Obviously, you could see him there running up for the first one. But the second one, the punt, bruton once again comes up from the left side after finishing a block and follows him into the endzone.


Man has some wheels. I like.

He's basically a Barrett clone, but mentally more intelligent.

Barrett has a year under his belt though and has been working hard so it's good to see him do well. He seems to be making a living as a TE cover specialist... which makes sense given his height, speed, and athleticism.

Hercules Rockefeller
10-23-2009, 06:08 AM
Guess that ownership kinda changed hands now, eh? :~ohyah!:

Actually, it's possible this 2009 draft calss will compare wuith those. NOt likely, but possible. The mistake Herc made was limiting his research to just the first six games the previous draftees played, their longer term records provide much better data.

Actually it wasn't a mistake. You're proclaiming to everyone how great those drafts are, specifically '06 and '08. Well guess what? Those super-duper drafts that you love so much hadn't produced much of anything through the same span of 6 games. Now you're turning around and claiming after 6 games with this draft class that it's unlikely that this class will be on par with the '06 and '08 drafts. The range of games I picked was the right one.

BroncoBuff
10-23-2009, 11:39 AM
Actually it wasn't a mistake. You're proclaiming to everyone how great those drafts are, specifically '06 and '08. Well guess what? Those super-duper drafts that you love so much hadn't produced much of anything through the same span of 6 games. Now you're turning around and claiming after 6 games with this draft class that it's unlikely that this class will be on par with the '06 and '08 drafts. The range of games I picked was the right one.

Fair enough, same sample data ... but come on Herc, 18 out of 20 still in the league? From drafts starting 3 1/2 years ago? That's 90% ... our '09 class is also at 90% after just six months ... and the league-wide average drafts '06 thru '08 is probably between 33% and 50%.

YEEES, the '09 class might equal that, but we just have to wait and see.

Inkana7
10-23-2009, 02:21 PM
Fair enough, same sample data ... but come on Herc, 18 out of 20 still in the league? From drafts starting 3 1/2 years ago? That's 90% ... our '09 class is also at 90% after just six months ... and the league-wide average drafts '06 thru '08 is probably between 33% and 50%.

YEEES, the '09 class might equal that, but we just have to wait and see.

There's a difference between being in the league and being any good.

BroncoBuff
10-23-2009, 02:35 PM
There's a difference between being in the league and being any good.

That's absolutely right, but I think most of them are pretty good.

Don't wanna elaborate though, I've already taken enough incoming fire in this thread :(

Master___Pain
10-23-2009, 02:43 PM
That's absolutely right, but I think most of them are pretty good.

Don't wanna elaborate though, I've already taken enough incoming fire in this thread :(

Tends to happen when you are wrong

Tyler Hansen ring a bell?

BroncoBuff
10-23-2009, 02:46 PM
Tends to happen when you are wrong

Tyler Hansen ring a bell?
Okay, if I'm so wrong, tell me why and how the jury's IN on this draft class?


And you must be kidding about Hansen. He just beat the crap out of the #15 Kansas Gayhawks.

His scrambling was a thing of beauty, some of the best college scrambiling I have ever seen. Ever.

Master___Pain
10-23-2009, 03:01 PM
Okay, if I'm so wrong, tell me why and how the jury's IN on this draft class?


And you must be kidding about Hansen. He just beat the crap out of the #15 Kansas Gayhawks.

His scrambling was a thing of beauty, some of the best college scrambiling I have ever seen. Ever.

I just like seeing you squirm. Herc has said everything I would have in this thread, no need to be redundant.

RE: Hansen. You had you panties all twisted about this no-name 2 star QB out of San Diego that the Buffs signed. I tried, repeatedly to tell you the kid was a baller but you wouldn't listen to me. I was just pointing out and reminding you how wrong you were on that.

BroncoBuff
10-23-2009, 08:35 PM
RE: Hansen. You had you panties all twisted about this no-name 2 star QB out of San Diego that the Buffs signed. I tried, repeatedly to tell you the kid was a baller but you wouldn't listen to me. I was just pointing out and reminding you how wrong you were on that.
Ohhhh, way back then.

Dude ... time marches on.



I was in a Landry Jones withdrawal phase.

BroncoBuff
10-23-2009, 08:44 PM
I just like seeing you squirm. Herc has said everything I would have in this thread, no need to be redundant.
Actually, if you think about it, Herc and I were in agreement. He said (paraphrasing), "we can only compare the first six games." That's like saying, "the jury is out," which is all I ever said.

Listen guys ... the jury is out on the '09 draft class, and that's a fact. If you can't see that, I can't help you.

And 18 out of 20 draftees from the '06, '07, and '08 drafts are still in the league? That's astonishing, and that too is a fact.

In fact, I'll bet anyone brave enough to continue arguing with me that this 90% is #1 of all 32 teams in the NFL over that span.

Any takers?

Didn't think so.

Game.

Set.

Match.

:welcome:

gyldenlove
10-23-2009, 09:05 PM
Difficult to know.

Maybe Moss looked more fluid in coverage. Maybe Moss looked better against the run or rushing the passer. Maybe Moss's contract was more team friendly to keep and less of a cap hit. Maybe they felt Moss had more long term potential for depth.

This one I think is all about potential.

Crowder is a guy who will look dominant against 2nd teamers but gets swallowed up by 1st teamers, and that is how he has looked for 7 years.

With Moss you have the potential that with propper coaching and a hard working attitude he could be more. When you have the kind of depth we have right now you can afford to keep a player deep on the depth chart because he might turn out to be great some day.

Moss is getting his last chance, I think after he came back from his vacation, hiatus, leave of absence whatever you call it, he has shown that he wants to take this one last shot at making it big, and I think that is something Mcdaniels values, the will and the passion to be good.

I don't think there is any doubt that quick emergence of Ayers has kept Moss hidden away on the game time inactive list and the utter dominance of Dumervil means he is not going to see the field a whole lot. If you look at how the Patriots have handled their young players they have often stashed them away for a while until they were ready to contribute instead of teaching them by letting them sink or swim.

Right now, the unsung hero of this defense is Andra Davis, he plays very hard at the line and is a major reason why the run defense is doing so well. He also creates a LOT of room for DJ to do his thing, he is playing very smart, very disciplined football. Only 5 players have more tackles for losses this year than Andra Davis.

BroncoBuff
10-23-2009, 09:12 PM
Moss is getting his last chance, I think after he came back from his vacation, hiatus, leave of absence whatever you call it, he has shown that he wants to take this one last shot at making it big, and I think that is something Mcdaniels values, the will and the passion to be good.
That's another situation where Josh should be given credit for using a light touch in GM duties ... he handled that pretty well. Doesn't seem like there's many coaches that would give a player that much leash - he left training camp for what, four days?



Only 5 players have more tackles for losses this year than Andra Davis.
I'll bet one is Elvis.