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View Full Version : How would you fix 3rd/4th and 1??


phillybroncosnut
10-18-2009, 10:29 AM
Besides fumbling a biut too much, the one are of concern for me is the 3rd/4th and inches plays that we have failed on in at least 6 attempts off the top of my head....
I know its pretty much all on the O-Line. If they get a push on their guy, its pretty much an easy first down. Is it as easy as that? Just coach up the O-Line a little more? What about if the O-Line fails? It doesnt mean we can't get the first down/touchdown....
Is it personel? Hillis or Jordan instead of Moreno or Buck? PA passes? Passes work from time to time but I'd like to see this team be able to pound the ball in short yardage situations. I want the other team to KNOW we are gonna slam it down their throat and we do it at will!
What do you think? Coach up the O-Line? Different personel? More creativity in play selection?

Bronco Boy
10-18-2009, 10:33 AM
We should probably leave it to the coaches to figure out.

Archer81
10-18-2009, 10:34 AM
Peyton Hillis.


:Broncos:

baja
10-18-2009, 10:34 AM
That's a good question I think Harris is the problem but that's the easy answer. Most here will say we should be running Hillis in those situations.

The Joker
10-18-2009, 10:38 AM
The interior O-Line is too small to consistently run it up the gut with success.

Neither Weigmann or Hamilton are even close to 300 lbs, which is great for pass protection and zone blocking runs, but when you wanna just pound it up there that's not the kind of linemen you want.

It'll continue to be an issue unfortunately, we need to run some tosses or PA on 3rd and short.

Doggcow
10-18-2009, 10:39 AM
Run Off the Clady

BroncoInferno
10-18-2009, 10:41 AM
Hamilton sticks out like a sore thumb in those situations. He's a solid player and a great technical player, but he can get pushed out. That coupled with Hamilton's age and it wouldn't surprise me if we took a big, nasty guard early in the next draft (possibly in the 1st depending on what our other needs are and who's available).

As far as what we can do to fix the problem...we need to vary what we do in those situations. So far, it seems we just try to pound it up the gut. We need to try some other things...pitches to the outside, play action passes. This will give the defense something to think about and perhaps loosen up the middle in those situations.

DAN_BRONCO_FAN
10-18-2009, 10:46 AM
why dont we try to run some other place besides the middle i would fake a run in the middle and either do a very short pass or a run to the end

CHANGSTER
10-18-2009, 10:47 AM
Definaley need more pitches. O line though undersized is good at sealing the edges and we have good blocking wr's. Seems like a no brainier to me. Not sure why they haven't done it thus far.

Natedog24
10-18-2009, 10:53 AM
Yeah agree with the sentiment here, need to run on the edges more in those situations. Our Oline is too small to run up the middle in short yardage situations...

Taco John
10-18-2009, 10:56 AM
Peyton Hillis

theAPAOps5
10-18-2009, 10:56 AM
Peyton Hillis.


:Broncos:

yeah they tried that he isn't doing so well. False starts and fumbles aren't the solution. I feel bad for the guy he has serious yips.

As to my solution, keep getting bigger on the oline as time progresses. Keep working on straight up line blocking. May be an issue all year though.

phillybroncosnut
10-18-2009, 10:57 AM
We should probably leave it to the coaches to figure out.

Thanks for the input... Lets close the board down... no reason to be here, this dude figured it all out.

Taco John
10-18-2009, 10:58 AM
yeah they tried that he isn't doing so well. False starts and fumbles aren't the solution. I feel bad for the guy he has serious yips.




Bah! Moreno has made way more mistakes than Hillis has this season.

BroncoInferno
10-18-2009, 10:59 AM
Peyton Hillis

He's in the doghouse. He's screwed up pretty much every opportunity they've given him thus far. I am sure he'll get others eventually, but everyone acts like Hillis is this beast because he had three good games last season. NFL history is littered with such players who never managed to duplicate that success with any consistency. Hillis could be such a player. Hopefully not, but let's not act like he's some stud because of brief success he had last season.

theAPAOps5
10-18-2009, 11:00 AM
Bah! Moreno has made way more mistakes than Hillis has this season.

go back and watch a few 4th and goals on the one and write down who has made the mistakes in that situation. Then get back to me.

If you don't want to I will tell you. it was hillis. He has had a few false starts down there.

Moreno has made more mistakes but he has 5 times more carries. Hillis has made some bad ones. Which wasn't his M.O. so again I state he has a serious case of the yips and isn't the answer right now.

2KBack
10-18-2009, 11:01 AM
Bah! Moreno has made way more mistakes than Hillis has this season.

I disagree, Moreno has had a fumbling issue recently, but that is fixable. Hillis issues are penalties and a lack of understanding of the offense. Last week was very telling when Hillis went in motion but had no idea where to go, forcing Denver to burn a timeout.

Taco John
10-18-2009, 11:01 AM
He's in the doghouse. He's screwed up pretty much every opportunity they've given him thus far. I am sure he'll get others eventually, but everyone acts like Hillis is this beast because he had three good games last season. NFL history is littered with such players who never managed to duplicate that success with any consistency. Hillis could be such a player. Hopefully not, but let's not act like he's some stud because of brief success he had last season.


Who on our roster is a better third down back than Hillis? Lamont Jordan? I'm not acting like he's anything but a resource who should be utilized better.

BroncoInferno
10-18-2009, 11:02 AM
Bah! Moreno has made way more mistakes than Hillis has this season.

Define "way more." He's had far more opportunities, so of course he's going to have more mistakes. But he's also made "way more" plays. And, I'd say on a percentage basis, he's made fewer mistakes than Hillis.

theAPAOps5
10-18-2009, 11:02 AM
Who on our roster is a better third down back than Hillis? Lamont Jordan? I'm not acting like he's anything but a resource who should be utilized better.

Well if you like false starts and fumbles then yes Hillis is the best choice.

BroncoInferno
10-18-2009, 11:04 AM
Who on our roster is a better third down back than Hillis? Lamont Jordan? I'm not acting like he's anything but a resource who should be utilized better.

Then he'll have to take advantage of his chances when he gets them. So far, he's screwed up when he's been given an opportunity. He's going to have to earn the trust of the coaching staff by making a play when they give him a chance. If he does so, then he'll get more opportunities. But, so far, he has not earned that trust.

Popps
10-18-2009, 11:14 AM
It feels like our short yardage plays are slow-developing. I have no idea why, but it seems like it's way too long before the RB is at the LOS.

DenverBrit
10-18-2009, 11:17 AM
One yard? It really is about one thing. Execution!

theAPAOps5
10-18-2009, 11:27 AM
Thats the thing Brit the team executes on every other facet of the gameplan except short yardage. Its kind of crazy.

I do agree with Taco that Hillis with his mind right is the best option but his head is not there right now.

snowspot66
10-18-2009, 11:29 AM
Well if you like false starts and fumbles then yes Hillis is the best choice.

One or two mistakes. No more than anybody else on the team. You act as if that's all he's capable of doing. The guy has proven he can be an effective player. Guys have bad games. He had one. Now he isn't being used in situations where he's the best option. He needs more chances. Or we can continue with our 0 for 10 or whatever our down and inches % is.

baja
10-18-2009, 11:31 AM
Dorothy no.

Did anyone see that commercial? OMG LMAO.

theAPAOps5
10-18-2009, 11:31 AM
One or two mistakes. No more than anybody else on the team. You act as if that's all he's capable of doing. The guy has proven he can be an effective player. Guys have bad games. He had one. Now he isn't being used in situations where he's the best option. He needs more chances. Or we can continue with our 0 for 10 or whatever our down and inches % is.

No its when he makes the mistakes. Its funny he is an Orange Mane Teflon player can't criticize him.

His mistakes have been boneheaded and at bad times. Its not like everyone else. I love the guy he just has the yips.

Archer81
10-18-2009, 11:33 AM
yeah they tried that he isn't doing so well. False starts and fumbles aren't the solution. I feel bad for the guy he has serious yips.

As to my solution, keep getting bigger on the oline as time progresses. Keep working on straight up line blocking. May be an issue all year though.


Hillis has one false start, and one fumble. Knowshon has 2 fumbles. But Hillis is the bigger back, and simply because it is 3rd and 1, doesnt mean with him in Denver will pound it for the first. Dude has hands, too. I hope whatever the problem is with him it works out soon. He does have too much value to just sit every game.

:Broncos:

baja
10-18-2009, 11:35 AM
Who on our roster is a better third down back than Hillis? Lamont Jordan? I'm not acting like he's anything but a resource who should be utilized better.

It's pretty clear they would like to.

theAPAOps5
10-18-2009, 11:41 AM
Hillis has one false start, and one fumble. Knowshon has 2 fumbles.
:Broncos:

Yeah the difference is Moreno has 81 carries and Hillis has 4 attempts, total. So please don't make that comparison because that is not fair to Hillis. He has not made good plays.

Don't forget that block in the back on a return play. And that he didn't know what to do in the offense on one play.

baja
10-18-2009, 11:44 AM
It feels like our short yardage plays are slow-developing. I have no idea why, but it seems like it's way too long before the RB is at the LOS.

Our boy genius is setting other teams up for later in the season. He's creating a tendency for the sole reason to be able to "surprise" another team by doing something different in a crucial late season game. How smart is that. ;D

Archer81
10-18-2009, 11:46 AM
Yeah the difference is Moreno has 81 carries and Hillis has 4 attempts, total. So please don't make that comparison because that is not fair to Hillis. He has not made good plays.

Don't forget that block in the back on a return play. And that he didn't know what to do in the offense on one play.


Whatever.

Like I said before, Hillis is too good to be sitting, and if you actually keep him in for more than 4 plays, he will do more good than bad.

Bein all racist against white people...ROFL!

:Broncos:

BroncoInferno
10-18-2009, 11:49 AM
Whatever.

Like I said before, Hillis is too good to be sitting, and if you actually keep him in for more than 4 plays, he will do more good than bad.

:Broncos:

How do you know his three good games last season weren't an aberration? Plenty of players have a brief string of good games and then never do anything of note after that. So far this season, he seems confused out there. Hopefully, he will get it together soon and contribute. I am actually more interested to see what he can do in the passing game than in the running game. But he has got to get his mind right in this offense first.

theAPAOps5
10-18-2009, 11:51 AM
Going through the play by play for the games quickly. Hillis had 2 back to back chances after getting the false start against the Raiders and was stopped. Lamont Jordan was next on 4th and goal and was stopped. So even they 2 guys you would think would be best suited aren't getting in.

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/gamecenter/playbyplay/NFL_20090927_DEN@OAK

So I think its just the changing philosophy on the line but right now I would not go to Hillis until he gets back on track on special teams and then ease him back in. McD has already stated he likes what hillis provides but he has to get past this mental block.

Archer81
10-18-2009, 11:54 AM
How do you know his three good games last season weren't an aberration? Plenty of players have a brief string of good games and then never do anything of note after that. So far this season, he seems confused out there. Hopefully, he will get it together soon and contribute. I am actually more interested to see what he can do in the passing game than in the running game. But he has got to get his mind right in this offense first.


RAAAAACCCCIIIISSSSTTTT...

Kidding. I think Peyton is overthinking. He should just relax and play.


:Broncos:

theAPAOps5
10-18-2009, 11:56 AM
Also to go with the false start and fumble. Hillis has gotten flagged for Holding on a punt return in the Dallas game:

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/gamecenter/playbyplay/NFL_20091004_DAL@DEN

As well as the block in the back in the same game. So thats 1 false start, one fumble, one holding, one block in the back, and one confused motion play to force a time out.

Can you tell me that he is making just as many mistakes as Moreno? I don't think you can say that.

snowspot66
10-18-2009, 11:56 AM
How do you know his three good games last season weren't an aberration? Plenty of players have a brief string of good games and then never do anything of note after that. So far this season, he seems confused out there. Hopefully, he will get it together soon and contribute. I am actually more interested to see what he can do in the passing game than in the running game. But he has got to get his mind right in this offense first.

He had problems with the offense last year. That's why he didn't start early.

He's not a huge **** up like some of you are saying. He screwed up a couple times in a new offense. He hasn't been given a chance since. Stop throwing him under the bus already. The guy needs to get more chances based on his previous history. Those three games last year? They weren't just good games. They were flat out dominant. He didn't even need blocking on some of his runs and he'd take it for 20. You'd have to be a major idiot to not at least try to get him into a few specific situations where he can get his chances.

BABronco
10-18-2009, 11:58 AM
Hillis, with 4 carries, also has as many tds (1) as Buck with 37 carries and Moreno with 81 carries....

theAPAOps5
10-18-2009, 11:58 AM
Of course he is not a huge f-up he is just making some huge f-ups right now. Thats why you don't use him right now. Once he settles down and gets back to playing football the way we all know he can then you use him. Because he sure as hell does lower the boom when his game is on.

BABronco
10-18-2009, 12:00 PM
RAAAAACCCCIIIISSSSTTTT...

Kidding. I think Peyton is overthinking. He should just relax and play.


:Broncos:

I think that is his biggest problem also. Had a football coach tell me one time "Your thinking too much! You need to start thinking". Took me awhile to realize I was out of my zone trying to learn a new scheme. I hope once Hillis calms down and learns everything he will be given a few more chances to prove why he made the 53 man roster.

theAPAOps5
10-18-2009, 12:00 PM
Hillis, with 4 carries, also has as many tds (1) as Buck with 37 carries and Moreno with 81 carries....

Yeah and as many fumbles........ :)

But that was on a kick return! ;D

BroncoInferno
10-18-2009, 12:02 PM
He had problems with the offense last year. That's why he didn't start early.

He's not a huge **** up like some of you are saying. He screwed up a couple times in a new offense. He hasn't been given a chance since. Stop throwing him under the bus already. The guy needs to get more chances based on his previous history. Those three games last year? They weren't just good games. They were flat out dominant. He didn't even need blocking on some of his runs and he'd take it for 20. You'd have to be a major idiot to not at least try to get him into a few specific situations where he can get his chances.

He was not "flat out dominant." That's what I mean, some of you think he is Earl Campbell based on an extremely small sample size. He played very well for three games, that's it.

I am not throwing him under the bus. I am just saying that he has to earn additional opportunities by making quality plays when he is called upon. So far it doesn't seem he has his head right. Hopefully that will change and he takes advantage of future opportunities.

BABronco
10-18-2009, 12:20 PM
He was not "flat out dominant." That's what I mean, some of you think he is Earl Campbell based on an extremely small sample size. He played very well for three games, that's it.


I disagree. He was pretty damn dominate last year.

vs. Miami ... 7 catches 116 yards 1 td
vs. cle ... 8 carries 24 yards. (not great) 3.0 ypc
vs. atl ... 10 carries 44 yards 2 tds 4.4ypc 3 catches 26 yards
vs. oak ... 17 carries 74 1 td 4.4 ypc 2 catches 22 yards
vs. nyj ... 22 carries 129 yards 5.9 ypc 1td
vs. kc ... 8 carries 58 yards 7.3ypc 1 catch 11 yards.

total= 68 carries 343 yards 5.0 ypc 5td (0 fumbles) 14 catches 179 yards 12.8 ypc 1 catching td.

For being a rookie fb he did phenomenal. Most of his yards and tds he fought every inch for.

I just don't get how McD can keep such a dynamic player off the field. Maybe he has the "yips" but let him work it out or something.

According to NFL.com he also has a fumble recovery this year. I can't remember where this came from.

Bronx33
10-18-2009, 12:22 PM
Peyton Hillis.


:Broncos:



this

BABronco
10-18-2009, 12:28 PM
He had problems with the offense last year. That's why he didn't start early.

He's not a huge **** up like some of you are saying. He screwed up a couple times in a new offense. He hasn't been given a chance since. Stop throwing him under the bus already. The guy needs to get more chances based on his previous history. Those three games last year? They weren't just good games. They were flat out dominant. He didn't even need blocking on some of his runs and he'd take it for 20. You'd have to be a major idiot to not at least try to get him into a few specific situations where he can get his chances.

What surprised me looking up his stats from last year is he didn't have a single 20 yard or more run.

cle he got a long of 10
atl 12
oak 13
nyj 19
kc 18 (2x)

Bronx33
10-18-2009, 12:32 PM
What surprised me looking up his stats from last year is he didn't have a single 20 yard or more run.

cle he got a long of 10
atl 12
oak 13
nyj 19
kc 18 (2x)


I wonder what his 3rd down conversion rate was i really wouldn't care how far hes running along as it prolongs a drive with a 1st down run what we are doing now isn't working.

BroncoInferno
10-18-2009, 12:33 PM
I disagree. He was pretty damn dominate last year.

vs. Miami ... 7 catches 116 yards 1 td
vs. cle ... 8 carries 24 yards. (not great) 3.0 ypc
vs. atl ... 10 carries 44 yards 2 tds 4.4ypc 3 catches 26 yards
vs. oak ... 17 carries 74 1 td 4.4 ypc 2 catches 22 yards
vs. nyj ... 22 carries 129 yards 5.9 ypc 1td
vs. kc ... 8 carries 58 yards 7.3ypc 1 catch 11 yards.

total= 68 carries 343 yards 5.0 ypc 5td (0 fumbles) 14 catches 179 yards 12.8 ypc 1 catching td.

For being a rookie fb he did phenomenal. Most of his yards and tds he fought every inch for.

I just don't get how McD can keep such a dynamic player off the field. Maybe he has the "yips" but let him work it out or something.

According to NFL.com he also has a fumble recovery this year. I can't remember where this came from.

That's very good production, but one 100 running game and one 100 receiving game definitely does not qualify as "dominant."

BABronco
10-18-2009, 12:40 PM
That's very good production, but one 100 running game and one 100 receiving game definitely does not qualify as "dominant."

Can you find me another fullback that has that kind of production?

BroncoInferno
10-18-2009, 12:45 PM
Can you find me another fullback that has that kind of production?

He was playing in a more traditional HB role in those games, a lot of single back sets. In other words, he was listed as a fullback but was really an HB for that stretch of games.

BABronco
10-18-2009, 12:52 PM
I wonder what his 3rd down conversion rate was i really wouldn't care how far hes running along as it prolongs a drive with a 1st down run what we are doing now isn't working.

Situation G Rush Yds Y/G Avg TD
3D, < 3 yds 6 7 26 N/A 3.7 1
3D, 3-7 yds 2 1 0 N/A 0.0 0
3D, 11+ yds2 1 4 N/A 4.0 0
3D, < 6 yds7 8 26 N/A 3.3 1
3D, 6+ yds 2 1 4 N/A 4.0 0
4D, < 3 yds 2 2 8 N/A 4.0 1
4D, < 6 yds2 2 8 N/A 4.0 1

receiving
Situation G Rec Yds Y/G Avg Lng YAC 1stD TD
3D, < 3 yds6 2 16 N/A 8.0 11 5.0 2 0
3D, 3-7 yds 2 2 13 N/A 6.5 7 4.0 1 0
3D, 11+ yds2 1 16 N/A 16.0 16 18.0 1 0
3D, < 6 yds7 3 23 N/A 7.7 11 5.7 3 0
3D, 6+ yds 2 2 22 N/A 11.0 16 9.5 1 0

So less than 6 yards 3 catches 3 first downs. More than 6 yards 2 catches 1st down. It doesn't show running first downs.

BABronco
10-18-2009, 12:54 PM
He was playing in a more traditional HB role in those games, a lot of single back sets. In other words, he was listed as a fullback but was really an HB for that stretch of games.

I'll give you that. So he was playing out of position... now find me a rookie who was playing out of position that had as much success as this kid during the course of 4-5 games.

rastaman
10-18-2009, 01:21 PM
Bah! Moreno has made way more mistakes than Hillis has this season.

Those fans who have lost confidence in Hillis will find out that he is the key to Denver resolving its problems with converting 3rd and short or inches. Something tells me McD will realize this fact as well.

theAPAOps5
10-18-2009, 01:22 PM
Those fans who have lost confidence in Hillis will find out that he is the key to Denver resolving its problems with converting 3rd and short or inches. Something tells me McD will realize this fact as well.

Yeah because you know what you are talking about! :spit: :thanku:

I think Hillis gets it on track and you are right but I think it will take a few more games and maybe some extra reps in the bye week. But right now he is far from the answer.

Taco John
10-18-2009, 01:23 PM
I can't believe that people can so easily forget what Peyton Hillis brought to the field last season. I get it though. It's hard to be critical of the decisions of a coach that is 5-0. He certainly earns the benefit of a doubt here.

The bottom line is that McDaniels doesn't trust the kid yet, or he'd be getting those opportunities.

Still, I think that Hillis is a better option than Jordon.

BroncoInferno
10-18-2009, 01:24 PM
I'll give you that. So he was playing out of position... now find me a rookie who was playing out of position that had as much success as this kid during the course of 4-5 games.

Dude, c'mon. He had a nice stretch of games as a rookie. Not dominant, but very good. NFL history is littered with such players who fade into obscurity. You act like he's Earl Campbell. He has a nice skill set and hopefully he will get his head on straight. If he does, he can definitely contribute. But you aren't going to get me to tell you he's a bonafide stud based on such a small sample size.

theAPAOps5
10-18-2009, 01:25 PM
I can't believe that people can so easily forget what Peyton Hillis brought to the field last season. I get it though. It's hard to be critical of the decisions of a coach that is 5-0. He certainly earns the benefit of a doubt here.

The bottom line is that McDaniels doesn't trust the kid yet, or he'd be getting those opportunities.

Still, I think that Hillis is a better option than Jordon.

I still can't believe that you think we are just making up that he has had some serious crucial mistakes at inopportune times THIS YEAR. As that is all that matters, THIS YEAR. No wonder McD doesn't trust the kid, he hasn't earned it.

rastaman
10-18-2009, 01:29 PM
Yeah the difference is Moreno has 81 carries and Hillis has 4 attempts, total. So please don't make that comparison because that is not fair to Hillis. He has not made good plays.

Don't forget that block in the back on a return play. And that he didn't know what to do in the offense on one play.

SO WHAT! ApaOps0! Players make mistakes for god sakes. Seems as though it is you that has the "Yippity Yips" of stubbornness! Point is, had Hillis have gotten a least 40 carries by now, he would have been able to prove his value at both HB and FB. We are only advocating to give Hillis a chance especially when we need to punch the ball over the goal line! The Defense sure would appreciate any of our RB's that can covert 3rd and short just so they can get a rest!

BroncoInferno
10-18-2009, 01:29 PM
I can't believe that people can so easily forget what Peyton Hillis brought to the field last season. I get it though. It's hard to be critical of the decisions of a coach that is 5-0. He certainly earns the benefit of a doubt here.

The bottom line is that McDaniels doesn't trust the kid yet, or he'd be getting those opportunities.

Still, I think that Hillis is a better option than Jordon.

No one has forgotten anything. Unlike some of you, however, there are those of us who have a proper perspective on what he did. He had a very nice stretch of games as a rookie. But that does not mean he's some superstar. Countless players have had a brief period where their star shone brightly, only to later fade into obscurity. Hillis could be such a player. So far, like you said, he's failed to earn the trust of the staff and has several glaring f-ups when he's gotten chances. He clearly doesn't have his head in the game right now. If he takes advantage of future opportunities, the ball will come his way more. But he has got to earn it.

theAPAOps5
10-18-2009, 01:31 PM
SO WHAT! ApaOps0! Players make mistakes for god sakes. Seems as though it is you that has the "Yippity Yips" of stubbornness! Point is, had Hillis have gotten a least 40 carries by now, he would have been able to prove his value at both HB and FB. We are only advocating to give Hillis a chance especially when we need to punch the ball over the goal line! The Defense sure would appreciate any of our RB's that can covert 3rd and short just so they can get a rest!

Yes this works in Madden. No it doesn't in real football. Hillis wasn't going to get the carries he got the minute they drafted Moreno. So he had to make the most of what he did get. And he hasn't. Not writing him off just saying it isn't right with him right now.

rastaman
10-18-2009, 01:31 PM
I still can't believe that you think we are just making up that he has had some serious crucial mistakes at inopportune times THIS YEAR. As that is all that matters, THIS YEAR. No wonder McD doesn't trust the kid, he hasn't earned it.

Down the stretch for a playoff run, and AFC west title, you will find that McDaniels will trust Hillis in 3rd short, in the red zone, and on the goal line. Sorry to disappoint you.

BroncoInferno
10-18-2009, 01:32 PM
SO WHAT! ApaOps0! Players make mistakes for god sakes. Seems as though it is you that has the "Yippity Yips" of stubbornness! Point is, had Hillis have gotten a least 40 carries by now, he would have been able to prove his value at both HB and FB. We are only advocating to give Hillis a chance especially when we need to punch the ball over the goal line! The Defense sure would appreciate any of our RB's that can covert 3rd and short just so they can get a rest!

If he practices well, then he will eventually get more opportunities. If he is successful on those chances, the ball will come his way more often. But he has to earn it in practices and in games when he gets his chances. They aren't going to just feed him the ball on blind faith simply because he had a nice stretch of games for the old regime.

theAPAOps5
10-18-2009, 01:32 PM
Down the stretch for a playoff run, and AFC west title, you will find that McDaniels will trust Hillis in 3rd short, in the red zone, and on the goal line. Sorry to disappoint you.

Won't disappoint me as that means Hillis has corrected his problems. I will also be the first to say so. You however will just move on to the next bitch fest.

BroncoInferno
10-18-2009, 01:34 PM
Down the stretch for a playoff run, and AFC west title, you will find that McDaniels will trust Hillis in 3rd short, in the red zone, and on the goal line. Sorry to disappoint you.

That will be great if that happens. The more weapons we have, the better. No one will be disappointed by that. All we are saying is he ain't a Hall of Famer based on a small sample size of games where he had success for the old regime. He's going to have to prove himself to these coaches in their offense by practicing well and taking advantage of opportunities that come his way and not f-up like he has so far.

rastaman
10-18-2009, 01:34 PM
Yes this works in Madden. No it doesn't in real football. Hillis wasn't going to get the carries he got the minute they drafted Moreno. So he had to make the most of what he did get. And he hasn't. Not writing him off just saying it isn't right with him right now.

Its RBBC is what is going to get us wins in NOV-DEC. Hillis is going to be key and we want our RB's (Buckhalter & Moreno) fresh in late Dec and Jan and Hillis's presence/contribution can and will provide just that.

theAPAOps5
10-18-2009, 01:36 PM
Its RBBC is what is going to get us wins in NOV-DEC. Hillis is going to be key and we want our RB's (Buckhalter & Moreno) fresh in late Dec and Jan and Hillis's presence/contribution can and will provide just that.

Yes you have a great point. Its why McD brought in so many backs he knows that there is RB attrition. I also think he knows what Hillis is capable of. But
Hillis has to fulfill his end of the bargain when he gets his chance and he hasn't been consistent.

BroncoInferno
10-18-2009, 01:36 PM
Its RBBC is what is going to get us wins in NOV-DEC. Hillis is going to be key and we want our RB's (Buckhalter & Moreno) fresh in late Dec and Jan and Hillis's presence/contribution can and will provide just that.

If Hillis earns more opportunities, then you're right. And everyone will be happy. But it won't happen just because you wish it would.

rastaman
10-18-2009, 01:40 PM
That will be great if that happens. The more weapons we have, the better. No one will be disappointed by that. All we are saying is he ain't a Hall of Famer based on a small sample size of games where he had success for the old regime. He's going to have to prove himself to these coaches in their offense by practicing well and taking advantage of opportunities that come his way and not f-up like he has so far.

Fair enough. What I'm advocating is not that Hillis is a HOFer, Hillis can simply contibute to a struggling offense inregards to 3rd and inches/short, in the red zone due to his pass catching ability and toughness running off tackle, and the power he brings to the table in goal line situations.

Hillis can't prove himself to the coaches if he can't get his hands on the ball. Hillis is a waste of talent if he's regulated to Special Teams. Let Hillis get the reps in practice with the first team offense and in Nov and Dec we will all be glad he became apart of the Offense.

baja
10-18-2009, 01:41 PM
If he practices well, then he will eventually get more opportunities. If he is successful on those chances, the ball will come his way more often. But he has to earn it in practices and in games when he gets his chances. They aren't going to just feed him the ball on blind faith simply because he had a nice stretch of games for the old regime.

This!

Why is it even debated?

theAPAOps5
10-18-2009, 01:43 PM
This!

Why is it even debated?

Its not people are just thinking that valid criticism is not warranted in regards to Hillis.

Point is, if fixes things he gets his chance. If he blows them he goes back to the bench. Its pretty simple really!

rastaman
10-18-2009, 01:46 PM
If Hillis earns more opportunities, then you're right. And everyone will be happy. But it won't happen just because you wish it would.

Let Hillis earn it during practice! Its obvious during training camp and the pre-season Hillis was getting the majority of his reps on special teams and not with the first team offense. Did Hillis complain! Nope....he's soldier and team first player. The man ain't special team material even though he was drafted in the 7th round which has special teams written all over it. But he has proven what he can do on offense. Hell, the Peyton and Jordan can be used in a JUMBO type package on 3rd and short or on goal line situations.

Plain and simple, Hillis needs to start getting practice reps with the first team during the remainder of October and eased into the game.

slyinky
10-18-2009, 01:49 PM
That's very good production, but one 100 running game and one 100 receiving game definitely does not qualify as "dominant."
He was the featured back over his last 3 games last year. In those 3 games he ran for 261 yds on 47 carries and a 5.6 yards per carry avg. Considering the fact that he tore his hammy on the first drive of the second quarter against KC, those yards basically came over the course of 9 quarters. Or 29 yards a quarter, which averages out to 116 a game (over 16 games that's 1856 yards). Yeah, it was only three games but still pretty dominate and he was getting better each game.

BroncoInferno
10-18-2009, 01:49 PM
Fair enough. What I'm advocating is not that Hillis is a HOFer, Hillis can simply contibute to a struggling offense inregards to 3rd and inches/short, in the red zone due to his pass catching ability and toughness running off tackle, and the power he brings to the table in goal line situations.

Hillis can't prove himself to the coaches if he can't get his hands on the ball. Hillis is a waste of talent if he's regulated to Special Teams. Let Hillis get the reps in practice with the first team offense and in Nov and Dec we will all be glad he became apart of the Offense.

The bolded is earned by practicing well. Obviously, none of us are at practice, but it seems safe to conclude that he is not doing enough there to entice the coaches to put the ball in his hands more during games. I guarantee you that if he starts making plays in practice, he will start seeing more balls on gameday. He definitely has a good skill set. As I said earlier, I'm particularly interested in seeing what he can bring to the passing attack. He was an excellent receiver in college and flashed that ability in one game last season when he had 7 catches for 116 yards. The Pats offense under McD went to the RBs often in the pass game, but we have not seen a ton of that so far in Denver. With Moreno and Buckhalter getting most of the carries, I don't see many available for Hillis, but if he gets his head on straight he has the ability to become a big factor in the passing game. But, again, he's going to have to make plays in practice to earn confidence and then make plays in the game when he gets opportunities. I assure you that McD knows that Hillis has an impressive skill set; he even commented on that in the preseason. He's not getting touches for a reason, and I seriously doubt it's because McD doesn't recognize his talent.

outdoor_miner
10-18-2009, 01:53 PM
Let Hillis earn it during practice! Its obvious during training camp and the pre-season Hillis was getting the majority of his reps on special teams and not with the first team offense. Did Hillis complain! Nope....he's soldier and team first player. The man ain't special team material even though he was drafted in the 7th round which has special teams written all over it. But he has proven what he can do on offense. Hell, the Peyton and Jordan can be used in a JUMBO type package on 3rd and short or on goal line situations.

Plain and simple, Hillis needs to start getting practice reps with the first team during the remainder of October and eased into the game.

What in the hell are you talking about? How do you know Hillis isn't practicing with the offense? How do you know how he is doing in practice? And you keep going on and on about him practicing with the Special Teams. You do realize that players can practice on both Special Teams and Offense, right? Eddie Royal returns kickoffs and punts, but I'm sure he gets plenty of practice reps on offense. I imagine many of the offensive linemen do both. Mario Haggan starts on defense and plays special teams. They are not mutually exclusive.

baja
10-18-2009, 02:02 PM
Let Hillis earn it during practice! Its obvious during training camp and the pre-season Hillis was getting the majority of his reps on special teams and not with the first team offense. Did Hillis complain! Nope....he's soldier and team first player. The man ain't special team material even though he was drafted in the 7th round which has special teams written all over it. But he has proven what he can do on offense. Hell, the Peyton and Jordan can be used in a JUMBO type package on 3rd and short or on goal line situations.

Plain and simple, Hillis needs to start getting practice reps with the first team during the remainder of October and eased into the game.

A worst he will be a second half (season) force with fresh legs.

rastaman
10-18-2009, 02:04 PM
The bolded is earned by practicing well. Obviously, none of us are at practice, but it seems safe to conclude that he is not doing enough there to entice the coaches to put the ball in his hands more during games. I guarantee you that if he starts making plays in practice, he will start seeing more balls on gameday. He definitely has a good skill set. As I said earlier, I'm particularly interested in seeing what he can bring to the passing attack. He was an excellent receiver in college and flashed that ability in one game last season when he had 7 catches for 116 yards. The Pats offense under McD went to the RBs often in the pass game, but we have not seen a ton of that so far in Denver. With Moreno and Buckhalter getting most of the carries, I don't see many available for Hillis, but if he gets his head on straight he has the ability to become a big factor in the passing game. But, again, he's going to have to make plays in practice to earn confidence and then make plays in the game when he gets opportunities. I assure you that McD knows that Hillis has an impressive skill set; he even commented on that in the preseason. He's not getting touches for a reason, and I seriously doubt it's because McD doesn't recognize his talent.

Thus far, Moreno and Buckhalter haven't proven that they are the answer when it comes to 3rd short and they have been given ample opportunity. I say give those 3rd and short/goal line opportunities to Hillis as well. Nothing wrong with allowing Buckhalter and Moreno to play and run the ball in other situations. No one is talking about taking playing time away from either Moreno nor Buckhalter. But Hillis has proven to be a "Beast" in short yardage either in 3rd down or on the goal line. He's simply the stronger runner.

BroncoInferno
10-18-2009, 02:06 PM
Thus far, Moreno and Buckhalter haven't proven that they are the answer when it comes to 3rd short and they have been given ample opportunity. I say give those 3rd and short/goal line opportunities to Hillis as well. Nothing wrong with allowing Buckhalter and Moreno to play and run the ball in other situations. No one is talking about taking playing time away from either Moreno nor Buckhalter. But Hillis has proven to be a "Beast" in short yardage either in 3rd down or on the goal line. He's simply the stronger runner.

He obviously has not proven that to the satisfaction of the coaching staff. Do you seriously not believe he is getting chances in practice during short yardage drills?

outdoor_miner
10-18-2009, 02:10 PM
He obviously has not proven that to the satisfaction of the coaching staff. Do you seriously not believe he is getting chances in practice during short yardage drills?

Peyton Hillis was the first string short yardage back throughout preseason and at the beginning of this year. He lost that job after Oakland, after making several mistakes in the first 3 games (and also failing to convert several opportunities). Now - I agree with everyone that nobody else has looked better. I hope Hillis gets another chance. But this notion that he has been unfairly treated is crap. He lost the job. I hope he earns it back.

rastaman
10-18-2009, 02:12 PM
Yeah because you know what you are talking about! :spit: :thanku:

I think Hillis gets it on track and you are right but I think it will take a few more games and maybe some extra reps in the bye week. But right now he is far from the answer.

Well I guess we Agree-To-Disagree. Hillis is the answer on 3rd and short or in goal line situations. All Orton is required to do is hand the ball off to Hillis on 3rd and short or on the goal line and let the chips fall where they may.

Its a nice luxury to have however to be 5-0, inconsistent in converting 3rd and short and still have Hillis as the ACE in the hole to use when it becomes crucial convert 3rd and short as the season goes on. McD must have a big smile on his face right now. He's thinking, Denver is 5-0 and he hasn't released his Secret weapon..."Shock-N-Awe Peyton Hillis"! :sunshine:

outdoor_miner
10-18-2009, 02:12 PM
Thus far, Moreno and Buckhalter haven't proven that they are the answer when it comes to 3rd short and they have been given ample opportunity. I say give those 3rd and short/goal line opportunities to Hillis as well. Nothing wrong with allowing Buckhalter and Moreno to play and run the ball in other situations. No one is talking about taking playing time away from either Moreno nor Buckhalter. But Hillis has proven to be a "Beast" in short yardage either in 3rd down or on the goal line. He's simply the stronger runner.

I agree with everything except your last part. Peyton has proven to be anything but a "Beast" so far this year. Maybe when Spencer Larsen comes back, things will change? I hope so.

theAPAOps5
10-18-2009, 02:12 PM
Well I just created a new stat. I call it the marriage stat. Its how many times you have a negative play for every touch/game action.

The first game Hillis was a stud. His doghouse ratio was perfect. He had 5 positives out of 6 actions. But we will eliminate the 6th action as that was an incomplete pass and I don't think it was a drop so its not on hillis.

So he was 5 for 5 mostly on special teams. Looking like the Hillis of last year.

Game 2 was still good except he fumbled the opening kick. But he was 2 out of 3 for positives including a touchdown.

Then the floor fell out. Game 3 he had only 1 positive play out of 3 actions. Which was a 1 yard gain. He had negatives in runs for 0 yards on goal and 1 and a penalty for false start.

Then against Dallas he was 0 for 2 with 2 bad penalties on special teams.

He hasn't had action sense. And that folks is why you call it the marriage stat! :)

Bronco Warrior
10-18-2009, 02:21 PM
Toss sweep or even a QB Sneak will mix it up so we aren't so predictable. End of the Panties game we converted 2 3rd and shorts with Screens to Royal. Orton is NO Thread on a sneak..we should try it..it would shock the world! lol!

Speaking of the Panties..... Does Phil Simms have a standing appointment to call Patriots games so he can give Brady and Bellichick a whole game reach-around?

misturanderson
10-18-2009, 02:24 PM
Well I just created a new stat. I call it the marriage stat. Its how many times you have a negative play for every touch/game action.

The first game Hillis was a stud. His doghouse ratio was perfect. He had 5 positives out of 6 actions. But we will eliminate the 6th action as that was an incomplete pass and I don't think it was a drop so its not on hillis.

So he was 5 for 5 mostly on special teams. Looking like the Hillis of last year.

Game 2 was still good except he fumbled the opening kick. But he was 2 out of 3 for positives including a touchdown.

Then the floor fell out. Game 3 he had only 1 positive play out of 3 actions. Which was a 1 yard gain. He had negatives in runs for 0 yards on goal and 1 and a penalty for false start.

Then against Dallas he was 0 for 2 with 2 bad penalties on special teams.

He hasn't had action sense. And that folks is why you call it the marriage stat! :)

Actually the incomplete pass in the first game was a ball that hit him in the hands and would have been a drive extending first down if he'd caught it. It would have been a relatively tough catch, but it still hit him in the hands.

rastaman
10-18-2009, 02:25 PM
He obviously has not proven that to the satisfaction of the coaching staff. Do you seriously not believe he is getting chances in practice during short yardage drills?

Yes I honestly do believe Hillis received more reps on special teams than he has with the first team offense. I could be wrong sure. But the one or two errors Hillis did make on offense during the regular season was b/c he lack of reps.

Remember, Hillis made must of his penalties-turnovers on special teams. He hasn't had ample carries in the regular season to prove whehter he would have made errors or turnovers in short yardage situation. Plus, Hillis has been a little dinged up after the Oakland Raiders game and I understand he's back at full speed. McD is a sly fox and knows what Hillis brings to the table in short yardage/goal line/red zone. In fact McD has probably called Hillis aside and given him a vote of confidence and told him not to get down himself b/c he's going to be needed and play key role in getting to the SB this year.

Beastmaster Hillis is key to giving the Defense some much need rest by converting 3rd and short, epecially in the 3rd and 4th qtrs. Don't forget Denver must keep the Defense fresh as well. We can't expect the Defense to hold up all season if they find themselves out on the field b/c we can't convert 3rd and short.

Ray_Lewis'_Victim
10-18-2009, 02:27 PM
How about we just give it to Orton and tell him to throw it left handed? Worked well in preseason.

BroncoInferno
10-18-2009, 02:29 PM
Yes I honestly do believe Hillis received more reps on special teams than he has with the first team offense. I could be wrong sure. But the one or two errors Hillis did make on offense during the regular season was b/c he lack of reps.

Remember, Hillis made must of his penalties-turnovers on special teams. He hasn't had ample carries in the regular season to prove whehter he would have made errors or turnovers in short yardage situation. Plus, Hillis has been a little dinged up after the Oakland Raiders game and I understand he's back at full speed. McD is a sly fox and knows what Hillis brings to the table in short yardage/goal line/red zone. In fact McD has probably called Hillis aside and given him a vote of confidence and told him not to get down himself b/c he's going to be needed and play key role in getting to the SB this year.

Beastmaster Hillis is key to giving the Defense some much need rest by converting 3rd and short, epecially in the 3rd and 4th qtrs. Don't forget Denver must keep the Defense fresh as well. We can't expect the Defense to hold up all season if they find themselves out on the field b/c we can't convert 3rd and short.

A lot of speculation in this post. As was pointed out, there are several starters playing special teams, so the notion that because he is on ST means he isn't getting reps on offense is suspect at best. That said, we all agree that Hillis has a nice skill set and we all want to see him succeed. I won't be surprised at all if he does--and I hope he does--but he will have to earn it.

lex
10-18-2009, 02:40 PM
Id stop trapping. Ive noticed them doing that. Id give it to Moreno and let him find a little space or jump over the pile but letting guards pull has too much going on. Id also line Hillis up at fullback and have him go in motion and throw it to him sometimes or use the him as a passing threat to call other plays.

BroncoInferno
10-18-2009, 02:44 PM
Id stop trapping. Ive noticed them doing that. Id give it to Moreno and let him find a little space or jump over the pile but letting guards pull has too much going on.

Good observation. Trap plays take time to develop; in short yardage situations where the D will be geared to stop the run it's better to run plays that aren't slow developing.

rastaman
10-18-2009, 02:57 PM
How about we just give it to Orton and tell him to throw it left handed? Worked well in preseason.

Why not have McDaniel's come in at QB and run the "Veer" Option like he did in H.S.! :P