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TheDave
10-16-2009, 08:54 AM
http://www.profootballweekly.com/2009/10/15/strange-chemistry-bubbling-in-denver

Strange chemistry bubbling in Denver
Posted Oct. 15, 2009 @ 12:53 p.m.
By Tom Danyluk

Cedric Hardman was an end rusher, a 49er sacker, who took his jollies from busting up the quarterback. And he loved jawing about them. Joe Theismann was a whiner; and Dan Fouts — you could flatten his nose to his face and he'd still beat you; and the one he pitied most was Archie Manning, who spent every Sunday in the shark tank, fighting off the fins and the teeth and counting his stitches.

And as I watched the Denver Broncos play New England last Sunday I thought about something else Hardman said — about a so-so passer who helped the Baltimore Ravens win a championship years ago, pretty much by not screwing things up.

"The common denominator of all great teams, no matter what the sport," Hardman said, "is chemistry. A glaring example of that occurred when Brian Billick had the nerve to think his system was so great that he didn't need to invite his own quarterback, Trent Dilfer, back the year after winning the Super Bowl.

"I don't know what's wrong with these damn people, messing with Dilfer. The boy had won the last 15 or 18 games he'd started, and Billick wouldn't even invite him back the next season. They talked about what Dilfer couldn't do, but they didn't talk about what he could do — and that was win, dammit! That's the bottom line.

"Rule No. 1: Don't mess with chemistry!"

And in Denver a Dilfer-ish quarterback named Kyle Orton gunned down the Pats with a pair of late 90-plus-yard drives, and a shocking Broncos defense wiped Tom Brady off the second-half scoreboard, and when it was over you couldn't help but sense something special was brewing out there — chemistry.

You can feel it with these Broncos. The tumblers are clicking. They're somehow getting the tips and the breaks and the bounces, and they're stacking them up in the win column.

How did they get here, and so quickly? When you eyed their late-summer roster it was pure hodgepodge, a shish-kabob team … trade here, free agent there, rookies over here … then all the tension with the new head coach. 5-11, maybe 6-10 was the coming forecast.

Instead, a mysterious alchemy went to work. What gives?

"I guess we're lucky. The altitude — who knows?" said DRE Vonnie Holiday (three tackles and forced a Brady fumble), a Miami reject. "It was amazing going into [the Pats] game, listening to the prognosticators saying we're the underdogs once again in our house after beating Dallas last week. … We feel like we've got a good team here. We're doing some good things. The guys in the locker room believe; the coaches believe; guys believe in each other and are fighting."

Orton believes he finally has the right coaching to drill into his strengths — that's Josh McDaniels and a new offensive coordinator, Mike McCoy.

"This is a great offense I can thrive in," says Orton, "that is really suited well for me. You've got to think, you've got to handle the operation correctly and then you've got to be accurate.

"Mike is a good mix with Josh because Josh is certainly intense and sometimes can be in your face a little bit. … I like that, but Mike is a very calming factor. He's played and he knows the position."

Orton was a low-level bomber at Purdue (522 yds. vs Indiana … 385 at Notre Dame), winging it around in the frenzy of the Joe Tiller scheme. It stirred enough attention to earn him a mid-round draft slot.

But Orton's had to scale things back to survive in the pros. Nothing fancy. The arm strength — just OK. He won't force things over the middle, and he won't cut you up deep.

But he won't turn it over either (one interception this season), and that's been the glue in holding the Broncos together thus far. It's also called self-preservation.

"The way I evaluate a quarterback," says McDaniels, "is wins, production, taking care of the football, helping your team do what it needs to do."

Chemistry — you won't hear McDaniels throw the word around much. His mantra is preparation — and picking the right guests for the party.

Former Cowboys coach Jimmy Johnson, who won back-to-back titles in Dallas, echoes the mindset.

"Everybody talks about chemistry of a football team and experience and leadership," says Johnson. "Well, what wins in this league is talent. And what wins in this league is individuals that don't make mistakes."

So you grab some good players and you coach the hell out of them and sometimes it still won't come together, e.g., San Diego, Dallas, the Coughlin Giants … with Shockey and Strahan and Tiki. Flop clubs.

Maybe there really is a third leg to all of this, the relationship biz?

"Oh, I believe very much in team chemistry … or espirit de corps … or karma … whatever you want to call it," says Dick Vermeil, former head coach of the Eagles, Rams and Chiefs. "I tried to cultivate that when I was coaching. You want your players to look out for one another, to care for each other, not letting the other guy down. It mainly happens on teams that are enjoying success, but I've seen losing ones develop it as a way to get through adversity. Everyone pulling together. The collective goal.

"Another way to say it is 'psychological momentum.' One year with the Chiefs we won nine straight. We won games we had no business winning. It was incredible. We'd just find ways to do it. Our players just expected to win."

Vermeil says sometimes it only takes a shot of new blood to make a difference on a club.

"In Denver you've had coaching changes, new coordinators," says Vermeil. "So right away a new level of enthusiasm gets created. Expectations change, there's a different way of doing things. That can energize a team. Then you start looking for guys that fit your profile. You keep the ones that do, and whoever doesn't buy into it — you eliminate.

"Over the years we passed over many talented guys in the draft because someone I knew on the college staff would say, 'Coach, he won't fit. Skip him. He won't fit in your program.' "

So far, Orton fits the Denver formula, and as he filled out the postgame questionnaire, he whipped the word "great" around the room in describing his team's big day — great talent, great line, great kick, etc.

Well, it's not a great club — yet. Orton's a swell story, and the running game is trying, and that defense — second in the league — has a head start on everybody.

But it's been chemistry that's held it all in place, the juice that's lifted a dead-look team onto a fast track toward the playoffs. Players caring. The right fit.

Trent Dilfer would raise a glass to that.

ant1999e
10-16-2009, 08:59 AM
I think we have what we had back in the superbowl days; a well oiled machine. Everyone is doing their job and it makes the gameplan run smooth.

gyldenlove
10-16-2009, 09:05 AM
What is really important about team chemistry is not the guy who is number 40 on the DC, he will always be a team guy, but the guy who is number 1 is the important one. When you have a Brian Dawkins out there looking out for his boys, when you have a Kyle Orton out there talking to people making jokes, that is what matters, if they do it then everybody else will fall in line.

Chemistry and team spirit starts at the top and trickles down, it comes with responsibility and it comes with looking out for each other, when the number 1 guys do that, all the rest will do it as well.

TheReverend
10-16-2009, 09:21 AM
It's a good article and makes valid points, but the main premise is off.

What Kyle did last Sunday was world's above anything Dilfer was ever capable of achieving.

Rohirrim
10-16-2009, 09:26 AM
Yep. It's worked for five games.

Meck77
10-16-2009, 09:30 AM
It's a good article and makes valid points, but the main premise is off.

What Kyle did last Sunday was world's above anything Dilfer was ever capable of achieving.

I just looked back at Dilfers stats for the 2000 season. He had a whopping 1,500 yards passing on the season. Kyle will have that after game 6.

Even Mock could bust off 2k passing if he had to.

Garcia Bronco
10-16-2009, 09:38 AM
Yeah...you can't compare Kyle to Trent.

bronco militia
10-16-2009, 09:41 AM
it's a good article and makes valid points, but the main premise is off.

What kyle did last sunday was world's above anything dilfer was ever capable of achieving.

no doubt!!!!!

baja
10-16-2009, 09:42 AM
I think we have what we had back in the superbowl days; a well oiled machine. Everyone is doing their job and it makes the gameplan run smooth.

I'm gonna keep a file of these homer posts and post them when this team crashes and burns won't that be fun..... ;D

PaintballCLE
10-16-2009, 09:46 AM
http://www.profootballweekly.com/2009/10/15/strange-chemistry-bubbling-in-denver

Well, it's not a great club yet. Orton's a swell story, and the running game is trying, and that defense second in the league has a head start on everybody.

But it's been chemistry that's held it all in place, the juice that's lifted a dead-look team onto a fast track toward the playoffs. Players caring. The right fit.

Trent Dilfer would raise a glass to that.

Second?

fdf
10-16-2009, 10:06 AM
I think we have what we had back in the superbowl days; a well oiled machine. Everyone is doing their job and it makes the gameplan run smooth.

That's true. But we had a lot more talent on the superbowl teams, in addition to team chemistry.

peacepipe
10-16-2009, 10:21 AM
I just looked back at Dilfers stats for the 2000 season. He had a whopping 1,500 yards passing on the season. Kyle will have that after game 6.

Even Mock could bust off 2k passing if he had to.

Kyle is doing better than Dilfer did then but to put your statement in context,Dilfer wasn't there starting QB until game 9 of that season. Tony Banks was their starter for the 1st 8 games. If you remember Tony Banks lost his starting job because of his inability to score a TD. They won like 5 games without scoring a TD on offense.

chex
10-16-2009, 11:16 AM
http://www.profootballweekly.com/2009/10/15/strange-chemistry-bubbling-in-denver

"I don't know what's wrong with these damn people, messing with Dilfer. The boy had won the last 15 or 18 games he'd started, and Billick wouldn't even invite him back the next season. They talked about what Dilfer couldn't do, but they didn't talk about what he could do and that was win, dammit! That's the bottom line.



That's an easy one, Dilfer wasn't lighting up the stat sheet. Dilfer winning games wasn't good enough for some people, much in the same way it is for Kyle Orton.

Orton is what, 26-12 for his career? He's not glamorous, he doesn't win you your fantasy league, and he doesn't dazzle those fans that want to be proud of the boxscore, so winning games just isn't enough for some people. Winning games and playing smart football just isn't enough.

bronco militia
10-16-2009, 11:21 AM
Kyle is doing better than Dilfer did then but to put your statement in context,Dilfer wasn't there starting QB until game 9 of that season. Tony Banks was their starter for the 1st 8 games. If you remember Tony Banks lost his starting job because of his inability to score a TD. They won like 5 games without scoring a TD on offense.

Coupled with his success and the fans dislike of previous starter Tony Banks, Dilfer became very popular in Baltimore, but he was surprisingly released after the season. With this, he became the only Super Bowl winning quarterback released the following season.

GoBroncos DownUnder
10-16-2009, 11:35 AM
Didn't the Ravens bring in Elvis Grbac after they won the SB??
I know that Grbac SUCKED and retired after year #1 in Baltimore.

BroncoMan4ever
10-16-2009, 01:08 PM
Why do so many compare Orton to Trent Dilfer?

Trent Dilfer is one of the most terrible QBs of the last decade.

True Orton isn't known for lighting up scoreboards or being a fantasy stud, but he is leaps and bounds better than Dilfer.

Against the man many claim to be the best in the league this past weekend, he was clearly the better QB on the field at the end of the day. I am not saying he is the best QB in the league, but if the NE game showed anything, it showed that Orton does not get rattled, he has the ability to take a game over and get his team a victory late(2-90+ yard drives to get the game into overtime is amazing) and when he has it all working he can hang with the elite QBs in this league.

Dilfer could never hang with the best at the position. He was a bottom feeder QB. Orton is a lot better on his bad days than Dilfer could have ever hoped to be.

Popps
10-16-2009, 01:14 PM
Yea, Dilfer is on the lower end of a QB that I think has the capacity to win a SB, but he still illustrates what is possible when a proper team structure is put in place.

jmz313
10-16-2009, 01:17 PM
In fairness to Trent Dilfer (in regards to SB season), while he was never a great QB, he was on a team that never, ever got any offensive production through the air during the tenure of the HC. No one ever was successful, even on a small scale. The Job became, just let the D win the game, and it stayed that way for 5-6 years.

and his 1500 yds were in 8 games, tony banks (i believe) started the season

epicSocialism4tw
10-16-2009, 02:48 PM
Anyone wonder why the Broncos fell of the map after they drafted Jay Cutler?

The team that was here had chemistry, and the change of QB destroyed that. It didnt help that Cutler was Greise-esque in his aloofness.

Bronco Yoda
10-16-2009, 03:23 PM
Careful. The Cutler fan-boy club is still lurking in the shadows...lol

epicSocialism4tw
10-16-2009, 03:27 PM
Careful. The Cutler fan-boy club is still lurking in the shadows...lol

Cutler is a very good player now.

However, when Shanny drafted him it destroyed the veteran team that went to the AFC Championship game and was a couple of defensive players away from winning a super bowl.

Drafting Cutler is ultimately what lost Shanny his job.

gyldenlove
10-16-2009, 03:30 PM
Cutler is a very good player now.

However, when Shanny drafted him it destroyed the veteran team that went to the AFC Championship game and was a couple of defensive players away from winning a super bowl.

Drafting Cutler is ultimately what lost Shanny his job.

I think losing Al Wilson was a very big factor in that too, he was the heart and soul of the defense and a good player. After he left there was a real void of veteran leadership and certainly there was no defensive leader who could rile up the other players and bring the unit together.

epicSocialism4tw
10-16-2009, 03:34 PM
I think losing Al Wilson was a very big factor in that too, he was the heart and soul of the defense and a good player. After he left there was a real void of veteran leadership and certainly there was no defensive leader who could rile up the other players and bring the unit together.

I agree.

The Broncos lost their defensive leader and lost their offensive leadership when Plummer checked out.

TheDave
10-16-2009, 03:38 PM
You know what folks...

Were going to have to ignore this thread. I've gotten a few rep comments reminding me that I'm not a good enough fan to post positive material.

Sooo... my hope is that you all can just move along to something else and hopefully one of the offseason superfans will re-post it again.

Thank you in advance for you cooperation. ;D

DBroncos4life
10-16-2009, 03:44 PM
You know what folks...

Were going to have to ignore this thread. I've gotten a few rep comments reminding me that I'm not a good enough fan to post positive material.

Sooo... my hope is that you all can just move along to something else and hopefully one of the offseason superfans will re-post it again.

Thank you in advance for you cooperation. ;D

lol I take it I wasn't the only one then :rofl:

baja
10-16-2009, 03:45 PM
Sure a blatant ploy to snag some sympathy Rep.

TheDave
10-16-2009, 03:46 PM
Sure a blatant ploy to snag some sympathy Rep.

I'm just trying to have fun with it... You should see the crazy **** that finds it's way into my rep comments.

epicSocialism4tw
10-16-2009, 03:50 PM
You know what folks...

Were going to have to ignore this thread. I've gotten a few rep comments reminding me that I'm not a good enough fan to post positive material.

Sooo... my hope is that you all can just move along to something else and hopefully one of the offseason superfans will re-post it again.

Thank you in advance for you cooperation. ;D

Youre not allowed to change your mind.

Here at orangemane.com/BB, we intend for everyone to acquire a singular idea and then to refuse to change our minds at any point over the span of our lifetimes.

DBroncos4life
10-16-2009, 03:56 PM
Youre not allowed to change your mind.

Here at orangemane.com/BB, we intend for everyone to acquire a singular idea and then to refuse to change our minds at any point over the span of our lifetimes.

Should we break the mane down into Group A and Group B. Group A can post for a week only if the team loses and Group B can post for a week if the team wins?

TheDave
10-16-2009, 03:57 PM
Yeah... Ummm....

You folks are going to need to vacate this thread. There are plenty of better ones around here, that were started by real fans.

go focus your half assed fandom-ish-ness-thingy else where.

;D

ant1999e
10-16-2009, 03:59 PM
That's true. But we had a lot more talent on the superbowl teams, in addition to team chemistry.

I think we have a nice balance of chemistry and talent. I just hope we can keep it up.

epicSocialism4tw
10-16-2009, 04:04 PM
Should we break the mane down into Group A and Group B. Group A can post for a week only if the team loses and Group B can post for a week if the team wins?

Here's a solution:

Everyone pitches in 10 bucks. I use the money to purchase a massive supply of orange paintballs.
http://www.coventrypaintball.co.uk/images/500%20paintballs.jpg

Then we all get together and the entirety of the orangemane lines up along Mile High Stadium W. Circle. Everyone turns to face away from the stadium along the road. Then I ride by at about 1mph and thoroughly blast everyone in the crotch until all of the paintballs are used up.

Then Taco John buys us all dinner.

DBroncos4life
10-16-2009, 04:08 PM
Here's a solution:

Everyone pitches in 10 bucks. I use the money to purchase a massive supply of orange paintballs.
http://www.coventrypaintball.co.uk/images/500%20paintballs.jpg

Then we all get together and the entirety of the orangemane lines up along Mile High Stadium W. Circle. Everyone turns to face away from the stadium along the road. Then I ride by at about 1mph and thoroughly blast everyone in the crotch until all of the paintballs are used up.

Then Taco John buys us all dinner.

Got anything that doesn't involve me getting blasted in the nuts by a paint ball gun? I have been there before and I didn't like it.

epicSocialism4tw
10-16-2009, 04:16 PM
Got anything that doesn't involve me getting blasted in the nuts by a paint ball gun? I have been there before and I didn't like it.

Nah...thats all I got, man. I guess I could just walk from person to person and kick them in the nuts (we could find a substitute humiliation for the women of the forum) one by one.

TheDave
10-16-2009, 04:21 PM
FWIW... Elsid recomended some of us be tied to the stake and let a goat feast on our junk. He was joking, but I think he was on to something. ;D

epicSocialism4tw
10-16-2009, 04:26 PM
FWIW... Elsid recomended some of us be tied to the stake and let a goat feast on our junk. He was joking, but I think he was on to something.

Okay...whenever there is talk of "junk" and someone intuitively responds with a commentary involving goats + junk, it makes me wonder about said person and their past, present, and future relationship with goats and junk.

Goats and junk just do not go together under any circumstance. Same can be said for any member of Kingdom Animalia + junk, unless of course we are talking about women + junk (exceptions made for siryennek and blart)

TheDave
10-16-2009, 04:30 PM
Okay...whenever there is talk of "junk" and someone intuitively responds with a commentary involving goats + junk, it makes me wonder about said person and their past, present, and future relationship with goats and junk.

Goats and junk just do not go together under any circumstance. Same can be said for any member of Kingdom Animalia + junk, unless of course we are talking about women + junk (exceptions made for siryennek and blart)

When spider mentions goats... I agree.

When dortoH mentions goats... I agree.

Other posters... not so much. Hell, how many goat ****ers can there really be on one website?

epicSocialism4tw
10-16-2009, 04:37 PM
When spider mentions goats... I agree.

When dortoH mentions goats... I agree.

Other posters... not so much. Hell, how many goat ****ers can there really be on one website?

Ha!

Maybe you should start a poll.

baja
10-16-2009, 04:37 PM
Should we break the mane down into Group A and Group B. Group A can post for a week only if the team loses and Group B can post for a week if the team wins?

Should I make a poll???

baja
10-16-2009, 04:48 PM
Nah...thats all I got, man. I guess I could just walk from person to person and kick them in the nuts <b>(we could find a substitute humiliation for the women of the forum) one by one.

I'll take care of that. ;D

baja
10-16-2009, 04:59 PM
Okay...whenever there is talk of "junk" and someone intuitively responds with a commentary involving goats + junk, it makes me wonder about said person and their past, present, and future relationship with goats and junk.

Goats and junk just do not go together under any circumstance. Same can be said for any member of Kingdom Animalia + junk, unless of course we are talking about women + junk (exceptions made for siryennek and blart)


http://wordinfo.info/words/images/feb-goat-offer-trans.gif

listopencil
10-16-2009, 06:26 PM
Cutler is a very good player now.

However, when Shanny drafted him it destroyed the veteran team that went to the AFC Championship game and was a couple of defensive players away from winning a super bowl.

Drafting Cutler is ultimately what lost Shanny his job.

Wow. Kind of makes me wonder if there were any posters on this board that were disappointed when we drafted a QB high in the first round like that?

baja
10-16-2009, 07:00 PM
Wow. Kind of makes me wonder if there were any posters on this board that were disappointed when we drafted a QB high in the first round like that?


http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=41478

Cleo McDowell
10-16-2009, 09:12 PM
http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=41478


WOW.. in the history of the internets, i don't think i've ever seen a thread go that direction..

WIN -----> EPIC FAIL ----->WIN

baja
10-16-2009, 09:14 PM
WOW.. in the history of the internets, i don't think i've ever seen a thread go that direction..

WIN -----> EPIC FAIL ----->WIN

Your so right

And my dear brother Jake will never get the credit he deserves.

He was right and he was the only one to call it

Bronco Yoda
10-16-2009, 09:23 PM
Should we break the mane down into Group A and Group B. Group A can post for a week only if the team loses and Group B can post for a week if the team wins?

We need TJ to break out the Sigs option again. Very simple.

Fun way to rib each other without letting things snowball into hurt feelings.

baja
10-16-2009, 09:33 PM
We need TJ to break out the Sigs option again. Very simple.

Fun way to rib each other without letting things snowball into hurt feelings.

That seems like a good idea. :thumbsup:

Mogulseeker
10-16-2009, 10:08 PM
http://www.profootballweekly.com/2009/10/15/strange-chemistry-bubbling-in-denver

Orton was a low-level bomber at Purdue (522 yds. vs Indiana 385 at Notre Dame), winging it around in the frenzy of the Joe Tiller scheme. It stirred enough attention to earn him a mid-round draft slot.


Orton was a projected first-rounder. He had the strongest arm in is draft class. A ****ty bowl game his senior year dropped his stock, and falling to the high 4th round was lower then the scouts thought he would go, even after that.

My point: things change a lot, and Orton at one point was thought to have first round talent. He's showing it so far this year.


"In Denver you've had coaching changes, new coordinators," says Vermeil. "So right away a new level of enthusiasm gets created. Expectations change, there's a different way of doing things. That can energize a team. Then you start looking for guys that fit your profile. You keep the ones that do, and whoever doesn't buy into it you eliminate.

"Over the years we passed over many talented guys in the draft because someone I knew on the college staff would say, 'Coach, he won't fit. Skip him. He won't fit in your program.' "

So far, Orton fits the Denver formula, and as he filled out the postgame questionnaire, he whipped the word "great" around the room in describing his team's big day great talent, great line, great kick, etc.

Well, it's not a great club yet. Orton's a swell story, and the running game is trying, and that defense second in the league has a head start on everybody.

But it's been chemistry that's held it all in place, the juice that's lifted a dead-look team onto a fast track toward the playoffs. Players caring. The right fit.


Think about how far Brandon Marshall has come. Think about how scary good this offense is capable of being.

houghtam
10-16-2009, 10:16 PM
...back to the thread topic.

I don't think the Orton-Dilfer comparisons are particularly accurate. But then again, I don't think our defense is as good yet as the 2000 Ravens' was, so I DO think the team comparisons are valid.

As I've said in a few other threads...play the field position game, rely on your defense, don't make mistakes on offense = wins.

If the offense keeps improving, I don't think there's a team in the league that can stop us. In fact (and I know this sounds brash), if the offense keeps improving, I don't think there's a team in the league that we can't beat by double digits on any given Sunday.

Someone said in another thread, how can you not like this team? I can't think of a reason right now why you can't.