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BroncoBuff
10-15-2009, 05:28 PM
Time for a few more seconds of Panic ....


The Young And The Tactless
Why are so many new NFL coaches such boorish tyrants?

By STEFAN FATSIS

A pinch of tobacco bumping his bottom lip, Browns head coach Eric Mangini makes players stand and answer questions during team meetings. Which training facility wall is decorated with a quotation from Sun Tzu? What's our long snapper's name and number? How long has Jeff Fisher coached the Tennessee Titans? Answer correctly and—well, you'd better answer correctly.

Just when you thought NFL coaches couldn't get any less likable, a crop of young know-it-alls is taking the league by scowl. In Denver, 33-year-old Josh McDaniels made rookies report to training camp at 5:30 a.m. to practice comedy skits. In Kansas City, Todd Haley, 42, started an argument with a Pro Bowl lineman who had flown in to introduce himself. Mangini, 38, made headlines after asking rookies to take a 10-hour bus ride to work at his summer football camp and, last month, fining a player $1,701 for failing to pay for a $3 bottle of water from a hotel minibar.

Mangini, McDaniels and Haley aren't the first coaches to believe that intimidation, humiliation and a hail of f bombs are the secrets to NFL success. But in a Gen Y league in the age of Obama, vein-popping outbursts and foot-high motivational tropes seem eye-rollingly old school. Players and fans born in the last half century might be tempted to ask a question of their own: Why are these guys such jerks?

he gridiron tyrant has been a stock character for generations. The game's militaristic nature, the thinking goes, demands an ironfisted leader—a field general! In the popular imagination Green Bay legend Vince Lombardi was the founding bully. But although Lombardi had a temper and an ego, "He also had a strong sense of team as family," says David Maraniss, author of the biography When Pride Still Mattered. "He was not afraid to use the word love, and he used it a lot." Today's distant, playbook-obsessed workaholic, Marannis says, flows more directly from Lombardi's fellow 1950s New York Giants assistant Tom Landry, who would win two Super Bowls in Dallas.

..... continued


http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1161264/index.htm

Mr. Elway
10-15-2009, 05:30 PM
That doesn't sound like the McDaniels we have seen.

ZONA
10-15-2009, 05:32 PM
Yeah, if I'm a rookie playing in the NFL making major bank compared to what you would have been making working a normal job, call me at 5:30am and make me practice comedy..........naked, and I would gladly do it with a smile on my face. You know it's only for a few weeks.

I bet there isn't one player on the team that feels Josh is a jerk. This writer can go blow himself. ****in loser.

tsiguy96
10-15-2009, 05:34 PM
ohh poor rookies, as opposed to the 6am the rest of the guys have to be there by :(

if fatsis thinks rookie hazing is exclusive to mcdaniels, hes retarded. the "rookie night" that a few guys tweeted about i bet was a lot of fun....

PRBronco
10-15-2009, 05:35 PM
Come on Fatsis, you're better than this. That ****'s old. McDaniels wins games, and the guys play hard for him, there's no hurt butts here.

BroncoBuff
10-15-2009, 05:35 PM
I dunno ... Josh is proving to be a pretty good coach, but he needs to work on that hollering crap, especially at his quarterback. Not cool.

TheDave
10-15-2009, 05:36 PM
As long as he wins... It won't matter.

Pseudofool
10-15-2009, 05:38 PM
I dunno ... Josh is proving to be a pretty good coach, but he needs to work on that hollering crap, especially at his quarterback. Not cool.You don't have insight into the relationship; you don't know how Orton is responding to it, and if he'd respond as well to any other coaching method. You might have a point if this was an amateur sport, but Josh and Orton are paid to get results. There's no moral imperative here not to holler, cuss, or browbeat.

Lev Vyvanse
10-15-2009, 05:39 PM
I dunno ... Josh is proving to be a pretty good coach, but he needs to work on that hollering crap, especially at his quarterback. Not cool.

Yeah because shanahan never did that. Come on buff.

BroncoBuff
10-15-2009, 05:42 PM
Geez guys, relax. Touchy touchy.

We disagree ... I think it's bad form. That's my opinion.

dextermilo
10-15-2009, 05:42 PM
In Denver, 33-year-old Josh McDaniels made rookies report to training camp at 5:30 a.m. to practice comedy skits

That explains the dropped balls. I bet at least half of those skits involved fumbles, the apex of football humor.

Seriously though, I love the idea of forcing rookies to show up early in the morning and get over themselves.

Cheers

WABronco
10-15-2009, 05:51 PM
Dude's name is fatsis

Lev Vyvanse
10-15-2009, 05:53 PM
McDaniels has morphed from arrogant kid to wunderkind. Regardless of record, though, the ends don't necessarily justify the means.

What? Is this guy serious?

Ray Finkle
10-15-2009, 05:54 PM
Fat ass was on the radio here in DC today....basically said Josh was using smoke and mirrors and the wheels were going to fall off soon.

Mr. Elway
10-15-2009, 05:55 PM
Here is the except, and presumably this is Fatis' evidence that McDaniels is a tyrant:

Consider McDaniels, who apprenticed for eight seasons under Belichick. After arriving in Denver, McDaniels alienated—and traded—a Pro Bowl quarterback and cut veterans without even the courtesy of a face-to-face meeting. He replaced efficient operations installed over 14 years by two-time Super Bowl winner Mike Shanahan—an autocrat but no malicious despot—with those he learned from his old boss. He even scrapped a brand-new, $450,000 video system because it wasn't what New England used. Some Broncos employees joke privately that the team should be renamed the Denver Patriots.

So here are the reasons. Decide for yourself if this is a good case or not:

- mysterious 5:30 am "comedy skit" (never explained)
- traded Cutler
- cut veterans
- changed "operations"
- replace a video system
- has caused a joke about the "Denver Patriots"

BroncoBuff
10-15-2009, 05:56 PM
What? Is this guy serious?

Yeah, that was weird ... I think I can explain though: He wrote the piece, or started it anyway, a few weeks ago. Now that we've bolted out at 5-0, he's gotta reconcile that record with the theme of the story. The part you quoted was his not too-well-thought-out bridge between the two.

WABronco
10-15-2009, 05:59 PM
Fat ass was on the radio here in DC today....basically said Josh was using smoke and mirrors and the wheels were going to fall off soon.

Good defense and controlling the ball. Ya that's the definition of smoke and mirrors.

More like the antithesis.

KipCorrington25
10-15-2009, 06:03 PM
Remember this is from a guy that's never worn a jock let alone strapped on a helmet. I read his book, it was insightfull at times but terribly boring at others, his chapters on his own kicking, who cares.

Football coaches are mean, go back to high school, college, etc, hell the NFL guys get paid and they have it great compared to most doing it for fun or a scholarship.

And any recent college grad is going to deal with a boss in any job, try the business world, you're going to have to take **** and bust ass to make an impression fresh out of college.

scorpio
10-15-2009, 06:03 PM
In Denver, 33-year-old Josh McDaniels made rookies report to training camp at 5:30 a.m. to practice comedy skits.

I had to do this kind of stuff as a freshman at football camp in high school. What's the big deal? NFL players get paid more so they shouldn't have to do the humility routine?

I ALSO HEARD THAT SOMETIMES THEY HAVE TO CARRY OTHER PLAYERS PADS. OH THE HUMANITY.

WABronco
10-15-2009, 06:05 PM
What? Is this guy serious?

He needs to take the Wade Phillips coaching method into consideration.

"Oh gee Marlon (McCree). You know, gosh I'm real sorry that we're gonna be lettin' you go, 'cause you're a real good player and a super guy. I'm real sorry. Here take some coffee and cookies before you go."

Maybe if he was nicer we'd be 5-0.

Houshyamama
10-15-2009, 06:08 PM
Yeah, Josh sounds like a complete meanie face jerk head. I'll bet he even raises his voice when trying to communicate something of importance. Jerk face.

SJ Bronco
10-15-2009, 06:15 PM
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GreatBronco16
10-15-2009, 06:18 PM
Gee Buff, you really don't like our coach do you?

skpac1001
10-15-2009, 06:21 PM
I think some "literary" sports journalists are just plain hacks.

theAPAOps5
10-15-2009, 06:23 PM
Too bad every other media person not named Josina or Sandy Clough don't say the same thing. He supposedly is hilarious, engaging, and his players love him.

Fatsis is wrong on this one, IMHO

theAPAOps5
10-15-2009, 06:24 PM
I dunno ... Josh is proving to be a pretty good coach, but he needs to work on that hollering crap, especially at his quarterback. Not cool.

:spit:

Hogan11
10-15-2009, 06:26 PM
Fatsis is an instant dismissal

DenverBrit
10-15-2009, 06:27 PM
I dunno ... Josh is proving to be a pretty good coach, but he needs to work on that hollering crap, especially at his quarterback. Not cool.

In fairness, McD also got in Brady's grill a few times.

theAPAOps5
10-15-2009, 06:29 PM
In fairness, McD also got in Brady's grill a few times.

As does almost every coach. Thats what makes the original post so commical.

delany
10-15-2009, 06:40 PM
This would have been a much more interesting thread if Denver was 0-5.

jhat01
10-15-2009, 06:41 PM
What a load of crap! You think that dude would have got hugs and "atta boys" from every other Patriot after the game if he is such an ass? Not to mention the flying hug too. What a dumb article.

tsiguy96
10-15-2009, 07:12 PM
me thinks that fatsis got his inside bronco source cut off...and is not happy about it.

R8R H8R
10-15-2009, 07:41 PM
Time for a few more seconds of Panic ....

By STEFAN FATSIS


Just when you thought NFL coaches couldn't get any less likable, a crop of young know-it-alls is taking the league by scowl. In Denver, 33-year-old Josh McDaniels made rookies report to training camp at 5:30 a.m. to practice comedy skits. In Kansas City, Todd Haley, 42, started an argument with a Pro Bowl lineman who had flown in to introduce himself. Mangini, 38, made headlines after asking rookies to take a 10-hour bus ride to work at his summer football camp and, last month, fining a player $1,701 for failing to pay for a $3 bottle of water from a hotel minibar.


This whole article is obviously tilted and biased towards making a point that there is a whole breed tyrants out there, but they are different from the Parcells' and Lombardi's of yesteryear.

One thing that raises suspicion to me is the fact that he doesn't quote even one of the rookies involved, even anonymously. How do we know they even objected to the incident?

Also, I only skimmed the article, but I don't remember him mentioning the Tampa coach or Spags w/ the Rams. Both are considered "players" coaches, but they both are 0-5 each.

So would a player rather have a "nice" guy for coach but the team sucks? Or would he rather play for an alleged "tyrant" that is a winner? I think the questions answer themselves.

TonyR
10-15-2009, 07:47 PM
What a load of crap! You think that dude would have got hugs and "atta boys" from every other Patriot after the game if he is such an ass? Not to mention the flying hug too. What a dumb article.

Great point. His former team and his current players seem to genuinely like him.

Rock Chalk
10-15-2009, 07:47 PM
I dunno ... Josh is proving to be a pretty good coach, but he needs to work on that hollering crap, especially at his quarterback. Not cool.

Its funny you say thsi.

Cutler couldnt take any hollering. Plummer could and OBVIOUSLY Orton can.

Maybe Cutler is such a pussy with hurt feelings that McDaniels didn't want the little priss on his team.

Rock Chalk
10-15-2009, 07:49 PM
ALso, the question is asked "Why are so many young coaches such boorish tyrants?"

I think that's the last thing you could say about McDaniels. He certainly isn't boorish. Tyrant? I dont know, most tyrants don't have the adoration of their subjects. McDaniels is proving to be one helluva player's coach IMO.

Bronx33
10-15-2009, 07:49 PM
jerks = wins = bigger paychecks

R8R H8R
10-15-2009, 07:50 PM
Great point. His former team and his current players seem to genuinely like him.
Truth.

JCMElway
10-15-2009, 07:53 PM
Yeah, I don't see a whole lot that I buy in this article The Broncs all seem to be on the same page and buying into the system. Heck, even Scheff seems to be on board and he has cause for complaint because of trade rumors.

Go F yourself Fatis.

gunns
10-15-2009, 07:56 PM
Seems to be working, who cares

Rock Chalk
10-15-2009, 07:58 PM
Whats funny is that when Fatsis was busy bashing Cutler the Cutler widows were busy bashing Fatsis.

Now that Fatsis is bashing McDaniels (kinda) the Cutler Widows are all loving Fatsis.

I think the only thing we can take away from Fatsis when it comes to the Denver Broncos is that he owes Mike Shanahan a great deal for his access and will remain loyal to him and THAT team (which at the time, was led by Plummer).

Beyond that he is a hack.

Chris
10-15-2009, 08:15 PM
I dunno ... Josh is proving to be a pretty good coach, but he needs to work on that hollering crap, especially at his quarterback. Not cool.

Orton said in the presser he likes that.

dbfan4life
10-15-2009, 08:24 PM
I read this today in my SI and had a feeling like it was written 2 months ago and just barely got published. Then I saw Fastis was the author and remembered he loved Shanahan. I wasn't suprised by the garbage he put out there.

Taco John
10-15-2009, 08:30 PM
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That's awesome.

UboBronco
10-15-2009, 08:31 PM
Fatsis is definitely mad that the only coach that let him in to write a book and make him semi-known , Shanny, got let go, and will do anything he can do drag his replacement down...

Fatsis is rich now, from the book Shanny let him write, so there is no doubt about why he will attack Josh.

Scruples is not only a game, but the media does not possess...

broncocalijohn
10-15-2009, 08:39 PM
me thinks that fatsis got his inside bronco source cut off...and is not happy about it.

Would that same source be Reilly's Secret Source? Buff, you have a chance to redeem yourself but you always seem to not make it over to the good side entirely. It is like once you admit yourself the wrongdoings, Broncos will then prove you "right" all along. It ain't happening. Amazing how you thought this article had some valid points. If you posted it then said dude has no idea what winning means, then I see it. This just seems like more sour grapes. We are 5 and 0 and the team, including rookies, are following the method of winning. You should jump in 100% and roll with it. "Yelling at your QB just isnt right" is so gosh darn it style. "Golly jee willakers, Wally. Dad is going to be sore."

ColoradoDarin
10-15-2009, 08:41 PM
That was a dumb article that made no sense. Too bad, I loved A Few Seconds of Panic.

UboBronco
10-15-2009, 08:48 PM
Would that same source be Reilly's Secret Source? Buff, you have a chance to redeem yourself but you always seem to not make it over to the good side entirely. It is like once you admit yourself the wrongdoings, Broncos will then prove you "right" all along. It ain't happening. Amazing how you thought this article had some valid points. If you posted it then said dude has no idea what winning means, then I see it. This just seems like more sour grapes. We are 5 and 0 and the team, including rookies, are following the method of winning. You should jump in 100% and roll with it. "Yelling at your QB just isnt right" is so gosh darn it style. "Golly jee willakers, Wally. Dad is going to be sore."

Speaking of Reilly................

Has he apoligized yet for his rant against McDaniels, since I believe he said they would not win more than 4 games... Come on Rick..... Show some balls..
Just because SI and ESPN have hired you, does not mean you have a free pass...

tsiguy96
10-15-2009, 08:52 PM
The Denver Broncos' 33-year-old Boy Blunder boasted this week that his draft board had fewer than 100 names on it, which made it easy for him to make his picks. Less than a hundred names when 256 players were drafted? Most boards had 500-plus names on them! Furthermore, he said the Broncos had worked out nearly 30 players and all 10 of his choices were among those 30. In other words, "I'm not capable of making a mistake. If I didn't work the guy out, the guy wasn't good enough. Period." This is the same genius who traded one of Denver's first-round choices in 2010 to move up in the second round to take a 5'9'' defensive back—Alphonso Smith. To repeat: Boy Blunder used a first to take a second. And if the Broncos are going to be as lame as I think they're going to be—4-12 perhaps—that first-round pick will be very high. McDaniels is the worst combination of things: Terribly naďve and doubly confident. Bronco fans, you're screwed.


rick REILLY is an idiot. get it? i used his last name in place of REALLY, because they are both spelled so closely.

outdoor_miner
10-15-2009, 09:04 PM
So here are the reasons. Decide for yourself if this is a good case or not:

- mysterious 5:30 am "comedy skit" (never explained)
- traded Cutler
- cut veterans
- changed "operations"
- replace a video system
- has caused a joke about the "Denver Patriots"

Good summary, and almost laughable in it's lameness. Oh no! A little rookie hazing! Pop quizzes to try to ensure the players understand the playbook! Employees joking about how he is bringing the Patriots system to Denver! Oh noes!!!!

The only thing that strikes me as a dick move is cutting veterans over the phone. I'm 99% sure that comes from Nate Jackson, who Fatsis was close to (I believe), and who already complained about this in a different article. I think players deserve more than that. On the other hand, we have no idea if their were extenuating circumstances.

I'll be interested if he comes here to defend himself. I respected that he did that with his book and other interviews. The above really seems like he is grasping at straws.

USMCBladerunner
10-15-2009, 09:05 PM
I think Stephan is a pretty good author, but I don't agree with the premise of this article, at least as it applies to Josh. For one, the players also refer to him as "Josh," indicating a familiar if not fraternal relationship. Two, he is a very amiable guy. He smiles all the time, and he looks like he's joking around with the players a lot. Just because he demands excellence from his players doesn't make him a tyrant. He demands conformance to a system, but that's his success model, not a power trip. The skit business is standard rookie hazing fare, and has no bearing on his team climate.

Fatsis may have a point with Mangini, there are multiple players with grievances filed with the Union/League against him, but I think that Fatsis is trying too hard to group McDaniels in with him. The hugs, smiles, and the way he vehemenently defended Orton when interviewing with Peter King after the game when Kyle burst open his finger, all tell me he's on his player's side. Drama queens and sabateurs can go elsewhere, but when it comes to his players...he's got their back.

cutthemdown
10-15-2009, 09:11 PM
Who cares what he says.

Basically when you make your living as a football analyst, or a sports writer, you have to make a point and take a stand.

I've talked to guys who wrote for street and smiths, athlon, they don't even know football that well. Basically tons of writers will send in freelance work and they pick the ones they decide to publish. Most of them know less about Broncos, broncos history then anyone on the board.

Fatsis is more knowledgeable but still he has to make a stand and say something people will want to read. Believe it or not people like reading things that piss them off. It's why Rush, Jesse Jackson etc can get us all so riled up.

Fatsis doesn't matter. He can say these coaches yell, but he didn't prove that yelling = being an asshole jerk. He only made on observation and an opinion.

TheReverend
10-15-2009, 09:16 PM
Fatsis has always been and always will be a jerk-off. Hope you're reading this, rarely posting lurker.

ZONA
10-15-2009, 09:17 PM
Yeah, no **** the real world is just as bad or even worse then what football coaches dish out. I remember taking this new job several years ago. A friend of mine from the previous place I worked also got a job there (we were laid off). Mind you, this is a professional business office we were in and we were in the Finance Dept and I remember the first day we were learning their financial system and it was rough. 5:00 rolled around and we were ready to hit the door and call it a day. The boss strolls on over and says where are you guys going? We said it's 5:00, time to go home. He said don't be such pussies, you should want to know how this system works as fast as you can and the only way you are going to do that is keep your asses in those seats and tear that son of a b**** down and get to it.

In those exact words. I remember it well. Kinda struck us as a bit extreme for normal business office talk. We looked at each other and were at a loss for words. Yeah, we stayed for about another 1 hour and then left. .lol

sfatsis
10-15-2009, 09:17 PM
Great to be back! Thanks for the warm welcome!

Some questions: Can you all be absolutely sure that, in spite of the team's record, everyone in the Broncos' organization really loves how the team is being run? Can you be sure the Broncos wouldn't be 5-0 if McDaniels had a more reasonable style when it came to managing this business? Do you really know the mood in the locker room? In the front office? (And how many of you were calling for McDaniels’ head in March?)

I can take criticism just fine, but let me say this one more time: My book was in no way a love letter to Shanahan, and my criticism of Cutler – after publication -- was based on how I observed and interacted with him on a personal level. I have no grudges or vendettas, no axes to grind, no one from the old regime to defend. (The person I owe the most in the Broncos organization is Pat Bowlen. But my respect for and loyalty to him won’t stop me from being a reporter.)

Oh, and I didn’t say on D.C. radio today that McDaniels is “smoke and mirrors.” In fact, I said he’s proving to be an excellent tactical coach who learned from a master. I said that five games is a small sample size, but that the Broncos defense sure looks real and that Orton has been more than capable (a fact, by the way, that I love). One of the show’s hosts, former Redskin LaVar Arrington, who said that opponents get wise to new coaches when they face them a second time. He noted that Zorn started out 6-2 last year. Whatever.

To a more dispassionate reader, here’s the point of the SI piece: Young coaches learn directly from their mentors and have little if any actual management training. Some of them therefore mistake treating players like **** with getting them prepared to play. Players really do believe that the rah-rah stuff, the yelling, the calling guys out, the juvenile games is simply unnecessary. It doesn't motivate, it alienates. But it doesn't preclude winning. Players are motivated by pride, ability and self-interest. Love or hate the coach, they have to work as hard as humanly possible, because they know the team has a list of a dozen guys to replace them. Merge that with a smart, driven, confident football mind -- like McDaniels’ – and success can happen.

When a team is going badly, the petty, screaming coach is the reason for the failure (see the Browns). When a team is going well, he’s the guy who installed the necessary discipline (see the Broncos). It’s easy for fans to dismiss behavior like forcing rookies to come in at dawn for nonfootball bull****. Hey, man, for that money, I’d come in at 3 in the morning! My question is simpler: Why do pointless stuff like that when you can treat your employees with humanity and respect – and win at the same time?

Stefan

ZONA
10-15-2009, 09:21 PM
Great to be back! Thanks for the warm welcome!

Some questions: Can you all be absolutely sure that, in spite of the team's record, everyone in the Broncos' organization really loves how the team is being run? Can you be sure the Broncos wouldn't be 5-0 if McDaniels had a more reasonable style when it came to managing this business? Do you really know the mood in the locker room? In the front office? (And how many of you were calling for McDaniels’ head in March?)

I can take criticism just fine, but let me say this one more time: My book was in no way a love letter to Shanahan, and my criticism of Cutler – after publication -- was based on how I observed and interacted with him on a personal level. I have no grudges or vendettas, no axes to grind, no one from the old regime to defend. (The person I owe the most in the Broncos organization is Pat Bowlen. But my respect for and loyalty to him won’t stop me from being a reporter.)

Oh, and I didn’t say on D.C. radio today that McDaniels is “smoke and mirrors.” In fact, I said he’s proving to be an excellent tactical coach who learned from a master. I said that five games is a small sample size, but that the Broncos defense sure looks real and that Orton has been more than capable (a fact, by the way, that I love). One of the show’s hosts, former Redskin LaVar Arrington, who said that opponents get wise to new coaches when they face them a second time. He noted that Zorn started out 6-2 last year. Whatever.

To a more dispassionate reader, here’s the point of the SI piece: Young coaches learn directly from their mentors and have little if any actual management training. Some of them therefore mistake treating players like **** with getting them prepared to play. Players really do believe that the rah-rah stuff, the yelling, the calling guys out, the juvenile games is simply unnecessary. It doesn't motivate, it alienates. But it doesn't preclude winning. Players are motivated by pride, ability and self-interest. Love or hate the coach, they have to work as hard as humanly possible, because they know the team has a list of a dozen guys to replace them. Merge that with a smart, driven, confident football mind -- like McDaniels’ – and success can happen.

When a team is going badly, the petty, screaming coach is the reason for the failure (see the Browns). When a team is going well, he’s the guy who installed the necessary discipline (see the Broncos). It’s easy for fans to dismiss behavior like forcing rookies to come in at dawn for nonfootball bull****. Hey, man, for that money, I’d come in at 3 in the morning! My question is simpler: Why do pointless stuff like that when you can treat your employees with humanity and respect – and win at the same time?

Stefan

I think the reason the rookies are brought in for those things is as much for the fun as it is anything else. The vets really get a kick out of it and the rookies sometimes really do enjoy doing their skits or songs. It's team bonding, and that's part of football.

broncocalijohn
10-15-2009, 09:23 PM
You might be correct on Mangini as we all heard what he pulled but you are stretching it by including McDaniels. Also, there is a thing called timing and you dont have it with this article, McDaniels and the fact that we have started 5 and 0. Of course you wanted to start the article a month back and now it kind of backfired. Your points were trivial on McDaniels and you could have left him out. Then again, 2 coaches doesnt sound as good as 3. So, why not put Tom Cable in the article. I hear that he actually punched someone out and broke his jaw while threatening his life.

tsiguy96
10-15-2009, 09:24 PM
because this is a PROFESSIONAL sport. they do this for a living, and it all comes down to winning. the intensity required to not only play, but coach, is much different then an investment banker getting disciplined by his boss. you cant make the comparison between professional sports and any other profession because there isnt one there. orton is having a CAREER year, marshall has already put up 4 TDs, the defense is playing as good as any defense EVER (right now), and they are all playing selfless, smart and physical football. this was a mentality brought by mcdaniels. you dont create intensity and fix mistakes on the spot by sitting a player down and speaking to them. if they mess something up, they need to fix it IMMEDIATELY, and they know it. there is a reason orton and the rest of the broncos are having such a good year, if you think he hates it because hes getting yelled at when he makes a mistake, you must be joking.

this defense has revitalized champs and dawkins career, brought credibility to denver once again. the broncos ARE 5-0 right now. can you be SURE the team would respond in such a dominant way if they got babied all offseason? or does the intense style that IS translating to the field the reason they are 5-0? answer seems like common sense to me. and you forget the key component to all this, accountability. these players are being held accountable for their mistakes, it does not matter whether the player is the star of the team or the 3rd team inactive player. "do your job" is a very good tag line for a team to have, because when each player does their job, you get a 5-0 team with a dominant defense and an offense that is improving every single week.

snowspot66
10-15-2009, 09:45 PM
Look at Wade and Norv. That alone should be enough of an example of how babying players and being their best friend gets you nowhere.

The difference between Mangini (a legitimate study for this article) and McDaniels (doesn't fit for this article) is respect. Mangini gives none and gets none. McDaniels does. McDaniels is simply demanding that players do their job. He's not making them work at his football camp or paint his house. When millions of dollars are on the line (tens of millions actually) a little bit of yelling is most definitely in order. Cutting players over the phone? So what. He didn't know them. They didn't know him. Neither party owed the other anything. Why make somebody drive into the office or come home from vacation just to tell them they're fired?

outdoor_miner
10-15-2009, 09:53 PM
A few things:

1. I played multiple sports throughout high school and played 2 sports in college. I can't think of a single time where "rookies" (freshman, whatever) were not hazed a little bit. It's a friggin comedy skit! Clearly, that is not something done in mean-spirited manner. I can't believe you used that as an example of what a jerk McDaniels is. It's a yearly rite of passage in sports organizations at every single level.

2. Of course not everyone in the organization is going to be happy. They are clearly trying to change the culture at Dove Valley. Every single organization (sports, business, whatever) is going to go through a bit of culture shock when leadership changes. One of the most important things in leadership is finding people that share your direction and beliefs. Clearly, McD believes in a different culture than Shanahan did, and he is slowly collecting employees that fit in with this culture. I bet you Shanahan will do the same thing when he finds his next gig. Any good leader will do this.

3. Yeah - players would rather not be yelled at. They would rather not have to work real hard every single day. They would rather not have to run sprints after practice. They will complain when a coach pushes them the extra mile. I was the same way when I played sports. But, I'm sorry - people work harder when they are pushed. And - if you win, it is all worth it. Somebody in an earlier post listed like 10 coaches who used an element of intimidation in their approach to coaching. Hell - Shanahan was a master of "mind games". I'm sure not every player loved him, either.

4. Did you write this awhile ago? In the past month, McDaniels seems to have lightened up quite a bit. He hugs his players. He laughs and jokes with players and the press. The whole sour-puss stereotype that was being perpetuated 3 months ago looks to have been debunked (while a guy like Mangini really does seem to be a jerk).

Anyway, it just seems like you are grasping at straws for examples of how McDaniels is a jerk. As I said before - the only thing that strikes me as dickish (at least in the examples you provided) was the whole cutting veterans over the phone thing. Otherwise, it just seems like standard stuff that all organizations undergo during a change in leadership.

Lev Vyvanse
10-15-2009, 09:54 PM
Fatsis has always been and always will be a jerk-off. Hope you're reading this, rarely posting lurker.

Good call.

Lev Vyvanse
10-15-2009, 10:10 PM
The Young And The Tactless


That is a great title for an article about football. You really nail the audience. cockgobbler.

DomCasual
10-15-2009, 10:18 PM
Great to be back! Thanks for the warm welcome!

Some questions: Can you all be absolutely sure that, in spite of the team's record, everyone in the Broncos' organization really loves how the team is being run? Can you be sure the Broncos wouldn't be 5-0 if McDaniels had a more reasonable style when it came to managing this business? Do you really know the mood in the locker room? In the front office? (And how many of you were calling for McDaniels’ head in March?)

I can take criticism just fine, but let me say this one more time: My book was in no way a love letter to Shanahan, and my criticism of Cutler – after publication -- was based on how I observed and interacted with him on a personal level. I have no grudges or vendettas, no axes to grind, no one from the old regime to defend. (The person I owe the most in the Broncos organization is Pat Bowlen. But my respect for and loyalty to him won’t stop me from being a reporter.)

Oh, and I didn’t say on D.C. radio today that McDaniels is “smoke and mirrors.” In fact, I said he’s proving to be an excellent tactical coach who learned from a master. I said that five games is a small sample size, but that the Broncos defense sure looks real and that Orton has been more than capable (a fact, by the way, that I love). One of the show’s hosts, former Redskin LaVar Arrington, who said that opponents get wise to new coaches when they face them a second time. He noted that Zorn started out 6-2 last year. Whatever.

To a more dispassionate reader, here’s the point of the SI piece: Young coaches learn directly from their mentors and have little if any actual management training. Some of them therefore mistake treating players like **** with getting them prepared to play. Players really do believe that the rah-rah stuff, the yelling, the calling guys out, the juvenile games is simply unnecessary. It doesn't motivate, it alienates. But it doesn't preclude winning. Players are motivated by pride, ability and self-interest. Love or hate the coach, they have to work as hard as humanly possible, because they know the team has a list of a dozen guys to replace them. Merge that with a smart, driven, confident football mind -- like McDaniels’ – and success can happen.

When a team is going badly, the petty, screaming coach is the reason for the failure (see the Browns). When a team is going well, he’s the guy who installed the necessary discipline (see the Broncos). It’s easy for fans to dismiss behavior like forcing rookies to come in at dawn for nonfootball bull****. Hey, man, for that money, I’d come in at 3 in the morning! My question is simpler: Why do pointless stuff like that when you can treat your employees with humanity and respect – and win at the same time?

Stefan

Props for responding to this thread.

I'll agree with you in that I think Mangini is a turd. But even trying to take the glee of 5-0 out of the equation, I don't see your point about McDaniels. There just seems to be too much evidence to the contrary.

A couple random thoughts come to mind:

1) The comment earlier about the love fest that was the post-game celebration last Sunday. New England players - down after a tough loss - were going WAY out of their way to be nice to the guy. There's no doubt that they thought highly of him. One or two - I could see. But they were lining up for him.

2) Scheffler turned his attitude around within a couple weeks after McDaniels getting here. He could have probably gotten himself traded. Cutler was his buddy, and I'm sure Scheffler was getting all the gory details about the situation from Cutler's side. I don't have the quote, but Scheffler talked about buying into the program after a few conversations with McDaniels - he was enthusiastic about it.

3) Champ Bailey made that comment last week about how prepared the team was every week this year - about how they prepared for every possible scenario in games. He then went on to say that he hadn't really consistently had that as a player in the NFL. Granted, Bailey has worked under some really awful defensive coaching situations the last few years. But I don't think a leader of the team would be saying anything positive about the current regime if he was felt disrespected by it.

I don't know. It's anecdotal, but I could come up with lots more, if I thought about it. I just don't get a negative vibe, in any way.

SonOfLe-loLang
10-15-2009, 10:25 PM
ALso, the question is asked "Why are so many young coaches such boorish tyrants?"

I think that's the last thing you could say about McDaniels. He certainly isn't boorish. Tyrant? I dont know, most tyrants don't have the adoration of their subjects. McDaniels is proving to be one helluva player's coach IMO.

most tyrants don't jump into the arms of their players after a big win.

I really enjoyed fatsis's book, but this article is silly. Inhumane? c'mon.

Killericon
10-15-2009, 10:28 PM
In Denver, 33-year-old Josh McDaniels made rookies report to training camp at 5:30 a.m. to practice comedy skits.

Am I the only one who is completely confused by the assertion that this makes you a mean coach?

BroncoMan4ever
10-15-2009, 10:29 PM
Yeah, if I'm a rookie playing in the NFL making major bank compared to what you would have been making working a normal job, call me at 5:30am and make me practice comedy..........naked, and I would gladly do it with a smile on my face. You know it's only for a few weeks.

I bet there isn't one player on the team that feels Josh is a jerk. This writer can go blow himself. ****in loser.

**** i would do it in the middle of a blizzard butt naked for the half the money these rookies got in their 1st contracts.

also, it probably wasn't about humiliation bringing them in that early, it was about getting them prepared for the hazing the vets were going to lay on them

McDaniels has a reason for everything he is doing, so it wasn't just about being a dick

outdoor_miner
10-15-2009, 10:30 PM
One last thing - your example of the video system is beyond ridiculous. Do you have any idea how much money is spent in corporate America every single day on things like this? He's comfortable with it, and thinks it's worth the money to get something he knows how to use. Frivolous? I guess that's debatable, but maybe he has better things to do than learn a brand new system. Does that really make him a jerk, though?

baja
10-15-2009, 10:31 PM
Its funny you say thsi.

Cutler couldnt take any hollering. Plummer could and OBVIOUSLY Orton can.

<B>Maybe Cutler is such a p***Y with hurt feelings that McDaniels didn't want the little priss on his team.
Been saying this for a while now. I think it became clear to Josh that cutler was not going to take to coaching and playing in Josh's system and that is the real reason he is no longer here.

tsiguy96
10-15-2009, 10:34 PM
considering the level of preparation that every single broncos player has raved about all year, to say the video board was a waste is ludicrous, especially with zero information given about the PREVIOUS one, whether it was completely outdated or not. good try fatsis.

spdirty
10-15-2009, 10:35 PM
Before the season McDaniels said in an interview with Alfred Williams to judge him on wins and losses. And thats all that matters, I dont care how he does it, dont care how ugly the wins, or uniforms are, he is right now 5-0 and the toast of the town.

tsiguy96
10-15-2009, 10:40 PM
Before the season McDaniels said in an interview with Alfred Williams to judge him on wins and losses. And thats all that matters, I dont care how he does it, dont care how ugly the wins, or uniforms are, he is right now 5-0 and the toast of the town.

look whos back on board. ready to eat a whole boatload of crow, or do i need to keep bumping your ridiculous posts from 2-6 months ago?

DBroncos4life
10-15-2009, 10:45 PM
look whos back on board. ready to eat a whole boatload of crow, or do i need to keep bumping your ridiculous posts from 2-6 months ago?

lol you think this **** is serious. LOL

tsiguy96
10-15-2009, 10:47 PM
lol you think this **** is serious. LOL

if youre gonna dump and trash on the team and anyone who ever showed any support for the team (homers, koolaid drinkers etc etc) for months on end and then end up being 150% wrong, you just expect to not hear anything and that be the end of it? nice try.

USMCBladerunner
10-15-2009, 10:50 PM
Stefan,

All your discussion about how the wins don't justify the tyranny miss the point of my arguments. I just don't see any validation for your assertion that McDaniels is a tactless jerk. I thought he might be a martinet when he first arrived, but the observed and perceived interaction between him and his players over the past few weeks indicate anything but. Like I said, Mangini's pegged as a grade A jerk as far as player relations go. Haley I'm not so sure about, but he was a hothead even before being a head coach, so I'm not sure his behavior is even systematic in nature.

Two better cases for your article are Nick Saban and Bobby Petrino, but I suppose with the end game being known on them, it wouldn't make for as interesting reading, even if it were more valid.

dextermilo
10-15-2009, 10:52 PM
Great to be back! Thanks for the warm welcome!

Some questions: Can you all be absolutely sure that, in spite of the team's record, everyone in the Broncos' organization really loves how the team is being run? Can you be sure the Broncos wouldn't be 5-0 if McDaniels had a more reasonable style when it came to managing this business? Do you really know the mood in the locker room? In the front office? (And how many of you were calling for McDaniels’ head in March?)

I can take criticism just fine, but let me say this one more time: My book was in no way a love letter to Shanahan, and my criticism of Cutler – after publication -- was based on how I observed and interacted with him on a personal level. I have no grudges or vendettas, no axes to grind, no one from the old regime to defend. (The person I owe the most in the Broncos organization is Pat Bowlen. But my respect for and loyalty to him won’t stop me from being a reporter.)

Oh, and I didn’t say on D.C. radio today that McDaniels is “smoke and mirrors.” In fact, I said he’s proving to be an excellent tactical coach who learned from a master. I said that five games is a small sample size, but that the Broncos defense sure looks real and that Orton has been more than capable (a fact, by the way, that I love). One of the show’s hosts, former Redskin LaVar Arrington, who said that opponents get wise to new coaches when they face them a second time. He noted that Zorn started out 6-2 last year. Whatever.

To a more dispassionate reader, here’s the point of the SI piece: Young coaches learn directly from their mentors and have little if any actual management training. Some of them therefore mistake treating players like **** with getting them prepared to play. Players really do believe that the rah-rah stuff, the yelling, the calling guys out, the juvenile games is simply unnecessary. It doesn't motivate, it alienates. But it doesn't preclude winning. Players are motivated by pride, ability and self-interest. Love or hate the coach, they have to work as hard as humanly possible, because they know the team has a list of a dozen guys to replace them. Merge that with a smart, driven, confident football mind -- like McDaniels’ – and success can happen.

When a team is going badly, the petty, screaming coach is the reason for the failure (see the Browns). When a team is going well, he’s the guy who installed the necessary discipline (see the Broncos). It’s easy for fans to dismiss behavior like forcing rookies to come in at dawn for nonfootball bull****. Hey, man, for that money, I’d come in at 3 in the morning! My question is simpler: Why do pointless stuff like that when you can treat your employees with humanity and respect – and win at the same time?

Stefan

Cheers Stefan! Props to you for showing up to take the heat and have a real discussion.

I can honestly say that I have no idea what the culture in the locker room is like for the Denver Broncos and, after reading your article, I think you have about as much of an idea as I do. Good job putting out an article that you probably got paid for. Unfortunately, your article makes some pretty extreme and slanted claims considering the complete dearth of meaningful information.

You raise some good questions. But you also make some pretty extreme assumptions. Give me a little more and I might jump on board with you, as it stands I really hope they only gave you $0.02 a word. Why? You call out McD but don't back it up.

I think, when it comes to McDaniels we fundamentally disagree about your one major gripe with him. To you what is, "nonfootball bull****", is to me one of the better group exercises that I have heard of. Get the young players in early to force some discipline with lifestyle and force them out of their comfort zone with each other during the comedy skits. Sounds like an attempt to give the players an opportunity to get over themselves. Being funny, in front of other people, when you are under a lot of pressure is almost as hard as playing football when under a lot of pressure, except that the pressure is sugar coated because it doesn't "seem" to matter. Getting past the typical performance anxiety before you even hit the field sounds like a great idea.

Or, maybe it is just an egomaniac that loves bleary eyed comedians.

DBroncos4life
10-15-2009, 10:52 PM
if youre gonna dump and trash on the team and anyone who ever showed any support for the team (homers, koolaid drinkers etc etc) for months on end and then end up being 150% wrong, you just expect to not hear anything and that be the end of it? nice try.

LOL Man you were so wrong I'm going to bump a thread to show everyone just how wrong you were. :rofl: Is that like getting E-Raped prison style? My god man I thought Claude Wroten was going to be a super star DT too maybe you should look for that thread and give it a good old bump.

JJJ
10-15-2009, 10:53 PM
This would have been a much more interesting thread if Denver was 0-5.

Indeed. I wonder how he would handle losing? He is freaking out on the sidelines when you are winning.

I prefer the firey type though over the milltoast guys like my guy Norv.

The difference in passion levels between the teams for me is pretty evident over the first 5 games at least. But this is a marathon and not a sprint and Norv's style seems to deliver strong finishes if not hot starts.

I think McD could be quite irritating on players and fans alike if there were loses mounting up. He is not a very likeable chap. One of those over-intense guys. His channeling of Belichick right down to the grey hoodie is certainly irritating to outsiders and frankly a little wierd.

But so is you going 5-0. Got to give him his props so far, the guy is definitely delivering.

tsiguy96
10-15-2009, 10:55 PM
LOL Man you were so wrong I'm going to bump a thread to show everyone just how wrong you were. :rofl: Is that like getting E-Raped prison style? My god man I thought Claude Wroten was going to be a super star DT too maybe you should look for that thread and give it a good old bump.

you must be an idiot if you dont understand the difference between thinking a player will pan out and hating on everything this team and coach has done (as well as the people who support him) for the last 6 months, only to be proven completely wrong. but tehn again, you were in the same doom and gloom boat as spdirty, so i would expect you to do whatever you can to look like less of an idiot.

DBroncos4life
10-15-2009, 11:03 PM
you must be an idiot if you dont understand the difference between thinking a player will pan out and hating on everything this team and coach has done (as well as the people who support him) for the last 6 months, only to be proven completely wrong. but tehn again, you were in the same doom and gloom boat as spdirty, so i would expect you to do whatever you can to look like less of an idiot.

:thumbs: Proven completely wrong on a message board that ranks real high on my give a **** meter. I took a stand on McD, because of him wanting Cassel over Cutler. I never said anything about Orton other then he wasn't great in the shotgun last year or in multiple WR sets. He is a Husker fan, he went to Purdue because our coach at the time didn't want him. I have the up most respect for him. He is a very good person. How he honored a former NU QB was amazing for a guy that didn't even know him. Just because I was wrong in one ****ing offseason abut how I reacted doesn't make you a better fan then me 2004.

BlaK-Argentina
10-15-2009, 11:04 PM
if youre gonna dump and trash on the team and anyone who ever showed any support for the team (homers, koolaid drinkers etc etc) for months on end and then end up being 150% wrong, you just expect to not hear anything and that be the end of it? nice try.

You're partially right. If it was the other way around, people like you (realistic fans, optimists, the wait-and-see kind) and me couldn't even show our faces around here. That said, going out of your way to make people eat crow is a bit too much. There should be some kind of balance but of course, such a thing doesn't exist here. I'm sure the offseason bashers are at least glad we are 5-0.

BTW Fatsis missed the mark on McD with this article. I don't know how much insight he has on how things are run in Denver now but from everything we've seen and heard, he's 100% wrong.

DBroncos4life
10-15-2009, 11:08 PM
You're partially right. If it was the other way around, people like you (realistic fans, optimists, the wait-and-see kind) and me couldn't even show our faces around here. That said, going out of your way to make people eat crow is a bit too much. There should be some kind of balance but of course, such a thing doesn't exist here. I'm sure the offseason bashers are at least glad we are 5-0.

BTW Fatsis missed the mark on McD with this article. I don't know how much insight he has on how things are run in Denver now but from everything we've seen and heard, he's 100% wrong.

I don't think there is a fan here that wouldn't rather be wrong and the Broncos be good over being right and the Broncos sucking.

BlaK-Argentina
10-15-2009, 11:11 PM
I don't think there is a fan here that wouldn't rather be wrong and the Broncos be good over being right and the Broncos sucking.

Heeeh... don't be so sure. I bet there are one or two. :wiggle:

DBroncos4life
10-15-2009, 11:16 PM
Heeeh... don't be so sure. I bet there are one or two. :wiggle:

Its possible. This off-season ran off quite a few good posters, which sucks.

lostknight
10-15-2009, 11:17 PM
Great to be back! Thanks for the warm welcome!
Some questions: Can you all be absolutely sure that, in spite of the team's record, everyone in the Broncos' organization really loves how the team is being run? Can you be sure the Broncos wouldn't be 5-0 if McDaniels had a more reasonable style when it came to managing this business? Do you really know the mood in the locker room? In the front office? (And how many of you were calling for McDaniels’ head in March?)



I'm honestly embarrassed that you saw this thread, and the typical knee jerk emotional drivel filled posts. I know that I have sent a fair amount of criticism your way in the past (in a respectful manner I hope), but if you want to do a real expose, do it on how passionate fans chuck their brains into the trash-bin and march when given orders, or even the implied marching orders of a organization.

On this board, there were some, including myself, who were very unhappy with how the Broncos were treating players, in particular Cutler, who was dubiously slimed as a drunk, Leech, who honestly deserved better. As you yourself pointed out - it's a business - but lately it's started to mimic politics. More about the anger and the spittle, then the ability and the triumph.

There is one important sub note, Is McDaniel's really more arrogant then Shanahan was? The only way we, as fans, have to measure that is to take your word for it.


Of course, coaches sometimes succeed anyway. Mangini is vilified in Cleveland, but he was Mangenius when he led the Jets to the playoffs in 2006. After a hot start in Denver—including a 20--17 Grumpy Bowl victory over Belichick on Sunday—McDaniels has morphed from arrogant kid to wunderkind. Regardless of record, though, the ends don't necessarily justify the means. The Broncos might be 5--0 even if the coach treated his underlings more humanely. And the Browns might not be 1--4.


I doubt many - if any of the people here read this last paragraph, but I can not agree with you more. But once again, what do we have to go on? McDaniel's might be viewed as arrogance as part of the titanic soap-opera mess that the media loves to blow up whenever possible, or he might just be that arrogant.

I'm actually in the arrogant camp - but I believe that this is a attitude that started at the top with Mr. Bowlen, and worked it's way into corrupting the Bronco's organization. Mr Cutler seemed terribly arrogant ere he departed, and Brandon Marshall has not been known for his humility.

I think Brian Dawkins is absolutely right on this. He talks about the need to stay humble. I think that's something this organization has lacked.


I can take criticism just fine, but let me say this one more time: My book was in no way a love letter to Shanahan, and my criticism of Cutler – after publication -- was based on how I observed and interacted with him on a personal level. I have no grudges or vendettas, no axes to grind, no one from the old regime to defend. (The person I owe the most in the Broncos organization is Pat Bowlen. But my respect for and loyalty to him won’t stop me from being a reporter.)


Most of my criticism has been aimed at the fact that people were taking a personal book - in which you wrote yourself as the hero - and characterizing real players by your account. Having run into the bad side (and the good side) of people in the media, you are what you eat - and you write what your sources tell you. You are limited by the view of how people interact with you.

Unfortunately, it was used here as Gospel in the sliming effort on previous players.


To a more dispassionate reader, here’s the point of the SI piece: Young coaches learn directly from their mentors and have little if any actual management training. Some of them therefore mistake treating players like **** with getting them prepared to play. Players really do believe that the rah-rah stuff, the yelling, the calling guys out, the juvenile games is simply unnecessary. It doesn't motivate, it alienates. But it doesn't preclude winning. Players are motivated by pride, ability and self-interest. Love or hate the coach, they have to work as hard as humanly possible, because they know the team has a list of a dozen guys to replace them. Merge that with a smart, driven, confident football mind -- like McDaniels’ – and success can happen.

:kiss:

okay. That was a bit disturbing and over the top. Wipe that out, and let me say I could not agree with you more. It's the difference between Mr. Hurdle and Mr. Tracy. Which of the two would you rather be today?


When a team is going badly, the petty, screaming coach is the reason for the failure (see the Browns). When a team is going well, he’s the guy who installed the necessary discipline (see the Broncos). It’s easy for fans to dismiss behavior like forcing rookies to come in at dawn for nonfootball bull****. Hey, man, for that money, I’d come in at 3 in the morning! My question is simpler: Why do pointless stuff like that when you can treat your employees with humanity and respect – and win at the same time?

Stefan


By the way, just for everyone else, I am a huge fan of your NPR and SI work and I highly recommend that work.

lostknight
10-15-2009, 11:23 PM
Before the season McDaniels said in an interview with Alfred Williams to judge him on wins and losses. And thats all that matters, I dont care how he does it, dont care how ugly the wins, or uniforms are, he is right now 5-0 and the toast of the town.

I do at the end of the day. There is a great line in a movie: "Success is the only American God." I hope that's not true, but the only "holy" passion today in America is the persuit of the victory, damn whomever else gets in the way, and the ends justify the means.

The NFL is starting to care as well. The tougher line about criminals in the NFL is a part of this. Steroids are no longer dismissed with a wink and a nudge...

And coaches like Tom Cable don't get away with breaking their employee's faces.

Can you win, and still be good people? Yep, I think Jim Tracey and the Rockies proved it this year.

snowspot66
10-15-2009, 11:25 PM
Indeed. I wonder how he would handle losing? He is freaking out on the sidelines when you are winning.

I think he'd handle it just fine. During the game he would be telling people to do their damned jobs. Hard to get mad at that. Anybody would get yelled at for doing a bad job at something they are getting paid for.

After the games he'd be quiet and list everything that got ****ed up. Just as he does after wins.

He's not being a dick for the sake of being a dick. He's simply an excitable young guy who is going to point out things that aren't correct until they are fixed. The reason guys seem to love him is because he is always teaching and expecting excellence. The guys nobody likes are the ones that just yell.

****ing eh. This is football people. I get more criticism as an artist every day than most of these guys probably get in a week or month. If Fatsis wants to see something mean why doesn't he go hang out with an art director for a week.

If the players can't take it this is the wrong ****ing job for them.

HAT
10-15-2009, 11:31 PM
I don't think there is a fan here that wouldn't rather be wrong and the Broncos be good over being right and the Broncos sucking.

Hahahaha...Seriously?

Where have you been?

broncocalijohn
10-15-2009, 11:48 PM
I don't think there is a fan here that wouldn't rather be wrong and the Broncos be good over being right and the Broncos sucking.

wrong! Look up Steeledude for an exact quote of wanting to prove someone wrong and he couldnt wait. Of course I dont think we have seen him in here for awhile now. I am not going to go out of my way to confort the non believers unless it warrants it. SP Dirty doesnt in this thread, but he does have some crow to eat. Im just sayin'.

BMarsh615
10-16-2009, 12:17 AM
he gridiron tyrant has been a stock character for generations. The game's militaristic nature, the thinking goes, demands an ironfisted leader—a field general! In the popular imagination Green Bay legend Vince Lombardi was the founding bully. But although Lombardi had a temper and an ego, "He also had a strong sense of team as family," says David Maraniss, author of the biography When Pride Still Mattered. "He was not afraid to use the word love, and he used it a lot." Today's distant, playbook-obsessed workaholic, Marannis says, flows more directly from Lombardi's fellow 1950s New York Giants assistant Tom Landry, who would win two Super Bowls in Dallas.


After the New England game McDaniels said he loved everybody. Heck after the Dallas game he said that he loved Brandon Marshall. McDaniels is all about team.

Archer81
10-16-2009, 01:30 AM
Usually when you hire a new coach from an entirely different coaching tree, changes happen. The "efficient" system of the previous coaching staff had a history of weak drafts and questionable free agency moves, and some of the talent evaluation was beyond silly. A 24-24 record over 3 seasons for a team that has a history of competing for championships is not acceptable. A chronically bad defense was not fixed, there was a fixation on stats, not winning, and not getting rid of dead weight doomed Shanahan. McDaniels is different, 22 years younger than Mike and so far is proving to be a good move.

:Broncos:

elsid13
10-16-2009, 02:00 AM
Its funny you say thsi.

Cutler couldnt take any hollering. Plummer could and OBVIOUSLY Orton can.

Maybe Cutler is such a p***Y with hurt feelings that McDaniels didn't want the little priss on his team.

Plummer could take being yelled out??? That new, I remember one of his biggest gripes that after Kubes left that he didn't like how Shanahan was in face when he did something wrong.

Drek
10-16-2009, 04:10 AM
To a more dispassionate reader, here’s the point of the SI piece: Young coaches learn directly from their mentors and have little if any actual management training. Some of them therefore mistake treating players like **** with getting them prepared to play. Players really do believe that the rah-rah stuff, the yelling, the calling guys out, the juvenile games is simply unnecessary. It doesn't motivate, it alienates. But it doesn't preclude winning. Players are motivated by pride, ability and self-interest. Love or hate the coach, they have to work as hard as humanly possible, because they know the team has a list of a dozen guys to replace them. Merge that with a smart, driven, confident football mind -- like McDaniels’ – and success can happen.


And how does that necessarily describe what McDaniels has done in Denver?

Lets go over your points:

- mysterious 5:30 am "comedy skit" (never explained)

5:30am, WOW, so damn early! I'm up and at work at 5:30 probably half the time, and its not like I'm even a blue collar worker or anything, I just like to be prepared. And for all we know these "comedy skits" where done in a supportive, nurturing environment to prepare and lighten the burden of rookie hazing.

- traded Cutler

I don't see anything wrong with this at all. I'm pretty sure Cutler asked for it. How tyrannical is making a guy stay on a team he obviously doesn't want to be on?

- cut veterans without contact

So? Should Nate Webster or Jamie Winborn have gotten calls after last year? Dre Bly and Mike Leach are the only examples of productive players he let go early, and he replaced both of them with comparable or superior players who came from organizations who had effected the same kind of turnaround he was looking to achieve. They brought a winning mindset that the current players didn't have.

- changed "operations"

Well ****, he is the coach. Why even fire Shanahan if the new guy was going to run the day to day operations identical to what the old regime did?

- replace a video system

I'd be surprised if McDaniels is a V/A guru and last I checked $450K is chump change within a multi-million dollar organization. So why would he waste time learning a new video system when there is something else he knows and prefers? $450K isn't **** for your new coach to be ready to roll from day one, its around the single year vet minimum.

I see a lack of "benefit of the doubt" reporting here. You talk about boorish young coaches but then write an article that makes accusations upon which you provide limited to no insight. I'd say that is rather boorish myself.

But don't let that stop you from trying to jump on the "20 and 30 somethings now have no manners!" bandwagon. You're just a few weeks late.

TDmvp
10-16-2009, 04:29 AM
I blame Tj ...

Ray Finkle
10-16-2009, 04:53 AM
Oh, and I didn’t say on D.C. radio today that McDaniels is “smoke and mirrors.” In fact, I said he’s proving to be an excellent tactical coach who learned from a master. I said that five games is a small sample size, but that the Broncos defense sure looks real and that Orton has been more than capable (a fact, by the way, that I love). One of the show’s hosts, former Redskin LaVar Arrington, who said that opponents get wise to new coaches when they face them a second time. He noted that Zorn started out 6-2 last year. Whatever.



I stand corrected and apologize. When I listened, I took that you were setting up Lavar to say that. Since Zorn was 6-2 last year (the team was not playing nearly as well as Denver is now) that McDaniels was heading for the same fail.

baja
10-16-2009, 06:08 AM
Great to be back! Thanks for the warm welcome!

Some questions: Can you all be absolutely sure that, in spite of the team's record, everyone in the Broncos' organization really loves how the team is being run? Can you be sure the Broncos wouldn't be 5-0 if McDaniels had a more reasonable style when it came to managing this business? Do you really know the mood in the locker room? In the front office? (And how many of you were calling for McDaniels’ head in March?)

I can take criticism just fine, but let me say this one more time: My book was in no way a love letter to Shanahan, and my criticism of Cutler – after publication -- was based on how I observed and interacted with him on a personal level. I have no grudges or vendettas, no axes to grind, no one from the old regime to defend. (The person I owe the most in the Broncos organization is Pat Bowlen. But my respect for and loyalty to him won’t stop me from being a reporter.)

Oh, and I didn’t say on D.C. radio today that McDaniels is “smoke and mirrors.” In fact, I said he’s proving to be an excellent tactical coach who learned from a master. I said that five games is a small sample size, but that the Broncos defense sure looks real and that Orton has been more than capable (a fact, by the way, that I love). One of the show’s hosts, former Redskin LaVar Arrington, who said that opponents get wise to new coaches when they face them a second time. He noted that Zorn started out 6-2 last year. Whatever.

To a more dispassionate reader, here’s the point of the SI piece: Young coaches learn directly from their mentors and have little if any actual management training. Some of them therefore mistake treating players like **** with getting them prepared to play. Players really do believe that the rah-rah stuff, the yelling, the calling guys out, the juvenile games is simply unnecessary. It doesn't motivate, it alienates. But it doesn't preclude winning. Players are motivated by pride, ability and self-interest. Love or hate the coach, they have to work as hard as humanly possible, because they know the team has a list of a dozen guys to replace them. Merge that with a smart, driven, confident football mind -- like McDaniels’ – and success can happen.

When a team is going badly, the petty, screaming coach is the reason for the failure (see the Browns). When a team is going well, he’s the guy who installed the necessary discipline (see the Broncos). It’s easy for fans to dismiss behavior like forcing rookies to come in at dawn for nonfootball bull****. Hey, man, for that money, I’d come in at 3 in the morning! My question is simpler: Why do pointless stuff like that when you can treat your employees with humanity and respect – and win at the same time?

Stefan

Dude you are too late you should have published your article two months ago you would have got rave reviews than as it is everybody loves Josh now. He's the new Shanny that's what 5 & 0 will do for ya. ;D

HEAV
10-16-2009, 06:26 AM
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HEAV
10-16-2009, 06:36 AM
Fatsis you're full of s**t. Only players that don't like McDaniels style are the one sitting at home or playing elsewhere.

On a side note it's crap writers like yourself that have ruined S.I.over the years.

Broncomutt
10-16-2009, 06:50 AM
I don't think there is a fan here that wouldn't rather be wrong and the Broncos be good over being right and the Broncos sucking.

I think you missed the post where jhns talked about how proud he was that Orton got booed in the home opener.

Oh wait, you said "fan". Maybe you have a point.

TheDave
10-16-2009, 06:50 AM
WOW... So this is what happens when someone says something that upsets "happy unicorn land".

... Oh wait, I already knew this.

God help this place after we lose a couple of games.

baja
10-16-2009, 06:59 AM
WOW... So this is what happens when someone says something that upsets "happy unicorn land".

... Oh wait, I already knew this.

God help this place after we lose a couple of games.

From dope to hero in 5 short weeks ;D

It doesn't appear that McD is a jerk to the players though. They seem to genuinely love the guy.

Josh did rip the ST coach a new one on the sidelines for that "running into the kicker" screw up on third down. Did you see that?

cousinal11
10-16-2009, 07:00 AM
fatsis you're full of s**t. Only players that don't like mcdaniels style are the one sitting at home or playing elsewhere.

on a side note it's crap writers like yourself that have ruined s.i.over the years.

+1

TheDave
10-16-2009, 07:05 AM
From dope to hero in 5 short weeks ;D

It doesn't appear that McD is a jerk to the players though. They seem to genuinely love the guy.
Josh did rip the ST coach a new one on the sidelines for that "running into the kicker" screw up on third down. Did you see that?

Because we are winning... Now whether he is a miniature Hitler or a 33 year old version of Dick Vermiel, I have no idea.

BUT... when your 5-0 it doesn't matter. Winning cures everything in this league. Always has, always will.

We will see how he and the team react when the inevitable struggles come.

spdirty
10-16-2009, 07:07 AM
look whos back on board. ready to eat a whole boatload of crow, or do i need to keep bumping your ridiculous posts from 2-6 months ago?

Oh look, its #1 Broncos fan, out to show how big of a douche he can really be, because of course "he deserves it." Hey, go ahead and bump away pal, and while your at it, go ahead and bump that post you wrote before the season started where you had em going 5-0 as well Nostradamus.

tsiguy96
10-16-2009, 07:09 AM
Because we are winning... Now whether he is a miniature Hitler or a 33 year old version of Dick Vermiel, I have no idea.

BUT... when your 5-0 it doesn't matter. Winning cures everything in this league. Always has, always will.

We will see how he and the team react when the inevitable struggles come.

we are winning as a direct result of the actions and coaching of mcdaniels and co, you think the players dont realize that?

TheDave
10-16-2009, 07:10 AM
we are winning as a direct result of the actions and coaching of mcdaniels and co, you think the players dont realize that?

Where did I say that?

tsiguy96
10-16-2009, 07:12 AM
Oh look, its #1 Broncos fan, out to show how big of a douche he can really be, because of course "he deserves it." Hey, go ahead and bump away pal, and while your at it, go ahead and bump that post you wrote before the season started where you had em going 5-0 as well Nostradamus.

i didnt have them going anything, i did what logical people do: wait until the season plays out a bit so we can see how they perform. you did what the ****ing retards did: jumped to conclusions, claimed mcdaniels was ruining this franchise, set it back 10 years, would be gone in 3 years himself and denver would be lost since cutler isnt here. see the difference?

funny how the mcdaniel haters are now trying to twist everything and making his offseason supporters look bad because we DIDNT predict 5-0. but guess what, we did predict he would be good for this team, and he exceeded even our expectations. you spent all season telling us why he sucks and why anyone believes in him is a blind koolaid drinking homer.

tsiguy96
10-16-2009, 07:13 AM
Where did I say that?

you didnt, but you seem to be agreeing that mcdaniels might blow up if we were losing, but we arent losing, and we arent losing because mcdaniels has set this team on course for the time being.

TheDave
10-16-2009, 07:17 AM
you didnt, but you seem to be agreeing that mcdaniels might blow up if we were losing, but we arent losing, and we arent losing because mcdaniels has set this team on course for the time being.

No superfan... I said we will see what happens when the team goes through the inevitable struggles.

That's not a prediction... that's taking a wait and see approach.

tsiguy96
10-16-2009, 07:23 AM
No superfan... I said we will see what happens when the team goes through the inevitable struggles.

That's not a prediction... that's taking a wait and see approach.

a. youre superfan bull**** is getting old, just because you made yourself look like a total ****ing retard all summer with all your doom and gloom **** doesnt justify you making fun of people who actually supported the team.

b. sure its a wait and see approach, but considering weve already seen the level of preparation and physicality of play, even if they go through a rough patch, its hard to predict that they will just fall apart instead of getting through it.

baja
10-16-2009, 07:25 AM
No superfan... I said we will see what happens when the team goes through the inevitable struggles.

That's not a prediction... that's taking a wait and see approach.

LOL Wait & see, what kind of horseshiit approach is that. ;D

TheDave
10-16-2009, 07:32 AM
a. youre superfan bull**** is getting old,...

I completely disagree... Calling you and your superfan act out, will never get old.

b. sure its a wait and see approach, but considering weve already seen the level of preparation and physicality of play, even if they go through a rough patch, its hard to predict that they will just fall apart instead of getting through it.

Yep, and so far we are getting all the breaks, are injury free, and we are winning.

That won't always be the case. Eventually, we will have key players out of the lkine up. Eventually the "imaculate deflections" will go the other way, and...GASP... eventually we will loose.

That's when we will see what this team and our coaching staff are made of...

TheDave
10-16-2009, 07:34 AM
LOL Wait & see, what kind of horseshiit approach is that. ;D

Actually... it's pretty cool.

At least it gaurantees I'll never be wrong. ;D

Meck77
10-16-2009, 07:38 AM
You know what they say about opinions.

http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/1949/cowanustattoo.jpg (http://img225.imageshack.us/i/cowanustattoo.jpg/)

TailgateNut
10-16-2009, 07:45 AM
Fatsis you're full of s**t. Only players that don't like McDaniels style are the one sitting at home or playing elsewhere.

On a side note it's crap writers like yourself that have ruined S.I.over the years.


SI is good for two things. Swatting flies and topping off the garbage can.

bowtown
10-16-2009, 08:00 AM
They had to go to work at 5:30 in the morning!!!!!????? NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.

You are right Stephie, clearly McDaniels has no idea how to treat his players with dignity. Can you also write an article about my boss?

tsiguy96
10-16-2009, 09:06 AM
I completely disagree... Calling you and your superfan act out, will never get old.



Yep, and so far we are getting all the breaks, are injury free, and we are winning.

That won't always be the case. Eventually, we will have key players out of the lkine up. Eventually the "imaculate deflections" will go the other way, and...GASP... eventually we will loose.

That's when we will see what this team and our coaching staff are made of...

a. youre superfan bull**** is getting old, i never claim to be an "above average fan" like others here, however im not above calling out the idiots who spent all summer making fun of people like me for not giving mcdaniels a chance at winning, and now they wont even own up to it.

b. while i agree that that is when we will see what they are made of, theres been no indication at all that this team will fall apart given their physicality, preparation and intelligent approach to football, especially with the veterans like dawkins who can bring people back to focus like he already did with marshall.

Killericon
10-16-2009, 09:19 AM
They had to go to work at 5:30 in the morning!!!!!????? NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.

You are right Stephie, clearly McDaniels has no idea how to treat his players with dignity. Can you also write an article about my boss?

Apparently, the coach having some fun at the rookies' expense constitutes not treating the team with "humanity".

TheReverend
10-16-2009, 09:31 AM
a. youre superfan bull**** is getting old, i never claim to be an "above average fan" like others here, however im not above calling out the idiots who spent all summer making fun of people like me for not giving mcdaniels a chance at winning, and now they wont even own up to it.

b. while i agree that that is when we will see what they are made of, theres been no indication at all that this team will fall apart given their physicality, preparation and intelligent approach to football, especially with the veterans like dawkins who can bring people back to focus like he already did with marshall.

a. youre superfan bull**** is getting old, i never claim to be an "above average fan" like others here, however im not above calling out the idiots who spent all summer making fun of people like me for not giving mcdaniels a chance at winning, and now they wont even own up to it.

b. while i agree that that is when we will see what they are made of, theres been no indication at all that this team will fall apart given their physicality, preparation and intelligent approach to football, especially with the veterans like dawkins who can bring people back to focus like he already did with marshall.

Bronco Warrior
10-16-2009, 09:42 AM
When Josh came in he did act like a Boy Emperor, and that is part of what alienated Cutler and the Marshall. His interview with Cutler he told him that he sucked and that he would have to drastically improve to be able to QB for him, He changed the whole menu at Dove Valley and tried to be Bill Belicheat!
To his credit he learned quickly that that isn't going to fly at Mile High! Once he just started being himself the change began to happen. And while Bellichick is Resspected and Feared by his players, Josh is now truely loved!

Popps
10-16-2009, 09:50 AM
Winning cures everything in this league. Always has, always will.
.

Right, but you have to cure problems before you can win. Winning is a byproduct of work.

I understand what you're saying, but at a certain point... you can't just say, "well... we're winning and that's why things are fine." Maybe we're winning because someone MADE things such that we COULD win.

This team had a ****-load of problems the past several years that appear to have been greatly improved in a single off-season. Winning is likely a byproduct of those improvements.

Popps
10-16-2009, 09:51 AM
When Josh came in he did act like a Boy Emperor, and that is part of what alienated Cutler and the Marshall. His interview with Cutler he told him that he sucked and that he would have to drastically improve to be able to QB for him, He changed the whole menu at Dove Valley and tried to be Bill Belicheat!
To his credit he learned quickly that that isn't going to fly at Mile High! Once he just started being himself the change began to happen. And while Bellichick is Resspected and Feared by his players, Josh is now truely loved!

This post is so drastically misinformed, it should just be deleted so no one with learning disabilities reads it and actually believes any of it is true.

Good lord, where to people pull this **** from?

Just awful.

TonyR
10-16-2009, 09:56 AM
When Josh came in he did act like a Boy Emperor, and that is part of what alienated Cutler and the Marshall. His interview with Cutler he told him that he sucked and that he would have to drastically improve to be able to QB for him, He changed the whole menu at Dove Valley...

Well, we don't know for sure what he told Cutler but if he did say this to him he was correct. And the "alienation" of Marshall was mostly about money, right? But again we don't know the whole story other than that so far things have turned out well.

spdirty
10-16-2009, 10:10 AM
i didnt have them going anything, i did what logical people do: wait until the season plays out a bit so we can see how they perform. you did what the ****ing retards did: jumped to conclusions, claimed mcdaniels was ruining this franchise, set it back 10 years, would be gone in 3 years himself and denver would be lost since cutler isnt here. see the difference?

funny how the mcdaniel haters are now trying to twist everything and making his offseason supporters look bad because we DIDNT predict 5-0. but guess what, we did predict he would be good for this team, and he exceeded even our expectations. you spent all season telling us why he sucks and why anyone believes in him is a blind koolaid drinking homer.

Hey superfan, I already admitted i was wrong about this guys ability to coach. 5-0 says I was wrong, Ive admitted it before and have no problem admitting it now, and am very happy to be wrong about this team. So how long are you now going to follow my posts around like a douchy superfan beating your drum about how I was wrong?

Ive already admitted it in other threads. How ****ing long are you going to keep this shlt up? Do I need a public spanking? What?

Tombstone RJ
10-16-2009, 11:30 AM
tsiguy needs to chill and go into his garage and work on his eclipse... paint it orange or something...

Popps
10-16-2009, 11:37 AM
Ive already admitted it in other threads. How ****ing long are you going to keep this shlt up? Do I need a public spanking? What?

What about my apology?

Make it real. I want to feel the sincerity.

;D

SonOfLe-loLang
10-16-2009, 11:59 AM
I completely disagree... Calling you and your superfan act out, will never get old.



Yep, and so far we are getting all the breaks, are injury free, and we are winning.

That won't always be the case. Eventually, we will have key players out of the lkine up. Eventually the "imaculate deflections" will go the other way, and...GASP... eventually we will loose.

That's when we will see what this team and our coaching staff are made of...


You really just dont want to admit your wrong.

Popps
10-16-2009, 12:05 PM
Stefan,

Always interesting to read your work. A few things I wanted to address...


To a more dispassionate reader, here’s the point of the SI piece: Young coaches learn directly from their mentors and have little if any actual management training.

I'm not following, here. Is your assumption that these mentors never imparted any sort of leadership or managerial knowledge on their "students?" If not, how would you explain the coaches like Gruden, Tomlin and McDaniels who have had (various levels of) success, quickly? Furthermore, take a coach like Shanahan. He was successful at a young age. Where did he receive his "managerial" training?

Point being... all coaches are young at some point. There's no coaching school these guys attend. They learn on the job and essentially absorb managerial skills through osmosis.

Your assertion of this generation of coaches having less managerial training than any other generation just doesn't follow logic. Coaches are coaches, and they've pretty much come up the same way for the last 100 years. Some simply come up more quickly than others, and as in many other facets of life... we're finding out that older doesn't always mean more effective. Just like in the business world, some leaders are very effective at a young age.


Players really do believe that the rah-rah stuff, the yelling, the calling guys out, the juvenile games is simply unnecessary. It doesn't motivate, .

Stefan, besides your stint following the Broncos in camp... had you played football prior to that? I would guess by your writing that you hadn't, which isn't an insult but it's simply to say that if you had played football for any length of time, you wouldn't make that statement.

The NFL may be a business, but it's still a game and it's still 53 guys that need to be controlled and motivated properly. It's a scaled down version of a military operation. Every guy is motivated differently, and I can say with 100% certainty that while some players may be the zen-like, cerebral beings you describe... many are volatile, emotional "warriors" that need to be reached in ways that transcend that of your average, corporate office administrator.

So, the bottom line is... controlling and motivating 53 guys to engage in a violent sport and buy into a concept 100% may take all different kinds of motivation. Just because you may not buy into more extreme motivational techniques doesn't mean others don't, and just because someone may have complained to you in a locker room doesn't mean that person didn't NEED to be motivated in a certain way. I'm sure plenty of players don't think they need to be yelled at. Some don't... and some probably do.



When a team is going badly, the petty, screaming coach is the reason for the failure (see the Browns). When a team is going well, he’s the guy who installed the necessary discipline (see the Broncos).

That's an easy capsule to swallow, but it's not 100% accurate. Some guys are simply better motivators than others.

Stefan, tell me you never had a boss that could be a little over the top, but you still liked him? Never? I have. I've had football coaches that were in my face screaming at me... but I liked them. Conversely, I've had bosses in the workplace that were calm, passive-aggressive, backstabbing bastards.

So, you're sort of painting all motivators with the same brush. By your logic, if a leader is calm... he/she must be a good leader. That holds no more truth than saying a leader isn't leading correctly if they employ more aggressive techniques, or have a personality type that is higher energy, etc.

I understand that demeaning human beings doesn't motivate, but I'm not sure that you can look at a guy being yelled at and be so certain that what's going on is demeaning. That's just your assumption. You've got no idea what an individual thinks... or needs.


Again, this isn't an accounting firm, it's a football team. These are tough guys playing a tough sport and sometimes tough leadership is necessary. The assumption that ALL tough leadership is demeaning just isn't valid... from someone who played for some tough coaches.


Parcells was one of the meanest bastards around, and yet if you listen to his former players... there's a degree of loyalty there that matches anything I've seen in pro sports.


There's no one way to coach or motivate. Look at the great coaches in history and that should be abundantly clear.

TheReverend
10-16-2009, 12:06 PM
You really just dont want to admit your wrong.

I don't think that's the case at all.

This team is bound to face SOME adversity with some great teams still left on the schedule.

Frankly, if we continue playing like we did last Sunday after a loss, or even in a loss, I'll be EXTREMELY satisfied with the team/staff.

DeuceOfClub
10-16-2009, 12:07 PM
This post is so drastically misinformed, it should just be deleted so no one with learning disabilities reads it and actually believes any of it is true.

Good lord, where to people pull this **** from?

Just awful.

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SonOfLe-loLang
10-16-2009, 12:18 PM
I don't think that's the case at all.

This team is bound to face SOME adversity with some great teams still left on the schedule.

Frankly, if we continue playing like we did last Sunday after a loss, or even in a loss, I'll be EXTREMELY satisfied with the team/staff.

I agree the team will face adversity and lose some games, but mr. dave refuses to give credit where credit is due, as if the first 5 games haven't counted. And i agree with you, i remember saying to myself before ot last week that there's no shame in losing this game, we've played hard.

TheDave
10-16-2009, 12:24 PM
I agree the team will face adversity and lose some games, but mr. dave refuses to give credit where credit is due, as if the first 5 games haven't counted. And i agree with you, i remember saying to myself before ot last week that there's no shame in losing this game, we've played hard.

Considering I've already given credit to the coach... SEVERAL times in SEVERAL different threads.

My guess is you don't know what your talking about.

TheDave
10-16-2009, 12:29 PM
a. youre superfan bull**** is getting old, i never claim to be an "above average fan" like others here, however im not above calling out the idiots who spent all summer making fun of people like me for not giving mcdaniels a chance at winning, and now they wont even own up to it.

b. while i agree that that is when we will see what they are made of, theres been no indication at all that this team will fall apart given their physicality, preparation and intelligent approach to football, especially with the veterans like dawkins who can bring people back to focus like he already did with marshall.

Who said anything about falling apart?

Seriously folks I know some of you are just in the habit of jumping peoples ****... But let's try and keep the reading comprehension to a particular standard.

elsid13
10-16-2009, 12:35 PM
Who said anything about falling apart?

Seriously folks I know some of you are just in the habit of jumping peoples ****... But let's try and keep the reading comprehension to a particular standard.

**** that, you are traitor and should be burned at the stake after goats have feed on your testicles

TheDave
10-16-2009, 12:37 PM
**** that, you are traitor and should be burned at the stake after goats have feed on your testicles

WTF???

I thought we were cool... We you gotta go sicking goats on my nuts?

Hilarious!

elsid13
10-16-2009, 12:47 PM
WTF???

I thought we were cool... We you gotta go sicking goats on my nuts?

Hilarious!

I figured that since the Superfan mob mentality was going on, we might as skip to the end and get to the good part. :yayaya:

outdoor_miner
10-16-2009, 12:51 PM
I'm not following, here. Is your assumption that these mentors never imparted any sort of leadership or managerial knowledge on their "students?" If not, how would you explain the coaches like Gruden, Tomlin and McDaniels who have had (various levels of) success, quickly? Furthermore, take a coach like Shanahan. He was successful at a young age. Where did he receive his "managerial" training?

Point being... all coaches are young at some point. There's no coaching school these guys attend. They learn on the job and essentially absorb managerial skills through osmosis.

Your assertion of this generation of coaches having less managerial training than any other generation just doesn't follow logic. Coaches are coaches, and they've pretty much come up the same way for the last 100 years. Some simply come up more quickly than others, and as in many other facets of life... we're finding out that older doesn't always mean more effective. Just like in the business world, some leaders are very effective at a young age.

While I agree somewhat with what you're saying, the fact of the matter is that McDaniels did receive management training from Belichick. It's one of the more annoying things about this article. After McD refused to interview for Head Coaching positions during the 2007 playoffs, Belichick basically took McDaniels under his wing and truly mentored him as a preparation for a head coaching gig. There were numerous articles last week about how Belichick trained him in running a Front Office, draft, free agency, etc.

Here's Fatsis quote from the article:

The system is partly to blame. As they climb the NFL ladder, coaches spend thousands of hours deconstructing video and diagramming plays. They become football experts. But they don't learn how to manage people or navigate the many issues and characters that beg for a head coach's attention. Turf, video, equipment, training, medical and travel operations. Salary caps and contract negotiations. The media onslaught and public relations. A racially, socially and economically diverse workforce. A chief financial officer. A billionaire owner. "A lot of assistant coaches, the only time they deal with the front office is to get their paycheck and make sure their insurance is up to date," says Ted Sundquist, a former Broncos G.M. "The system doesn't create leaders."

Now, here is an article from last week (from the same magazine as Fatsis' article, mind you):

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writers/jim_trotter/10/06/mcdaniels.belichick/index.html

"I had been talking to Bill for a few years about being a head coach, and after I didn't do any interviews during the bye week in the '07 playoffs he said, 'I will help you in any way I can to get you ready for all the other things that go into the job,'" McDaniels said. "Just being around him every day was going to help me from a football standpoint because I could see what he did and how he did it. But he was saying he would help me with some of the things that you won't really get a chance to witness or understand or become knowledgeable about until you're in that position.

"I remember when we first came back after our break, that very first day, that very first morning, he brought me into his office and he gave me five pages, typed, of all the topics and things that he felt like I needed to be educated about to become an effective head coach. I'm thinking to myself, here he's got 10 or 12 days where he can do whatever in the hell he wants to do -- we've just come off a season where we were 16-0 and lost in the Super Bowl -- and the very first day back he gives me this? That was kind of like my bible."

During the 2008 season, the men met for an hour here, 30 minutes there, until they had addressed every point in the report. From there McDaniels developed 60 to 65 questions of his own that he carried into job interviews with Cleveland and Denver earlier this year.

"When you say where did the questions come from, it was Bill's background," McDaniels said. "He had been a head coach in Cleveland and New England, he was a coordinator in a number of different places, and he understands the salary cap, free agency, the draft, contracts, all that stuff. He gave me as much of that information as I could possibly ask for -- and then he gave me a whole bunch of information that I never would have asked for. I wouldn't trade that experience for anything."

This directly contradicts Fatsis' statements. It's just annoying to read. It really is like this article was written a couple months ago, and then just updated after the Broncos 5-0 start without taking any recent evidence into account.

SonOfLe-loLang
10-16-2009, 12:54 PM
Considering I've already given credit to the coach... SEVERAL times in SEVERAL different threads.

My guess is you don't know what your talking about.

Well excuse me for not know the history of your posts. But based on your last post, id say you dont often admit youre wrong

USMCBladerunner
10-16-2009, 01:09 PM
While I agree somewhat with what you're saying, the fact of the matter is that McDaniels did receive management training from Belichick. It's one of the more annoying things about this article. After McD refused to interview for Head Coaching positions during the 2007 playoffs, Belichick basically took McDaniels under his wing and truly mentored him as a preparation for a head coaching gig. There were numerous articles last week about how Belichick trained him in running a Front Office, draft, free agency, etc.

Here's Fatsis quote from the article:



Now, here is an article from last week (from the same magazine as Fatsis' article, mind you):

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writers/jim_trotter/10/06/mcdaniels.belichick/index.html



This directly contradicts Fatsis' statements. It's just annoying to read. It really is like this article was written a couple months ago, and then just updated after the Broncos 5-0 start without taking any recent evidence into account.

agreed, the timing of the article is terrible IRT the Broncos, and does feel like it disregards considerable information that is counter to his premise.

HEAV
10-16-2009, 01:43 PM
There are still many fan/posters playing the fence game. You can see it in their comments and posting. They are stradling the fence touching both sides of the ground waiting to jump back over the minute something goes bad.

This Broncos team isn't undefeatable, it's not perfect, there are weakness on both side of the ball and on special teams. This team will have loses on it's record. But this [BTEAM[/B] will play hard every game.


Back to the topic.
Trying to compare McDaniels situation with Haley and Mangini is like comparing night and day.

Todd Haley got his job due to his relationship with Scott Pioli.

Mangini got his 2nd gig becuase Randy Lerner (Browns owner) has a hard-on for Patriots and so want to be the Patriots that he thinks if he keeps hiring Bills Asst. that it will happen.

Josh was the wild horse (yes pun intended) during the interview process. He impressed Pat Bowlen, he was prepared and was confident and sold the owner on his plan. He won the job.

As far as yelling or using intimidation... please the previous coach was known to be just as intimidating...hell there was a reason why people call him napoleon.

Now we all can make a case that Josh came into a franchise with clearly more talent on the offensive side of the ball. Making his job of inserting his offense easier than in Cleveland & KC.

It's what Josh did on defense that proves he's not a napoleon type. He went out and hired a former head coach and a man that has years of experience in coaching. He put the defense in Nolans hands and oh by the way Nolan is a yeller also! He's a strict coach that demands the best from his players!

As far as what the "fans have seen" the players love coach McDaniels. He's earned the respect of Dawkins and Bailey.

As far has chewing out the offense in the Dallas game...he was right to do so! Orton and crew had played like crap and needed woken up!

Is Mangini an A-hole? Yes clearly he is a wanna-be and his action with spy-gate is very telling about him.

Is Haley an A-hole? Not sure, he's team is bad and he has a great deal of work to do so anger/frustration can be seen.

Is Josh an A-hole? No! He's demanding of his players, he's vocal with them on the field.

TheDave
10-16-2009, 01:44 PM
Well excuse me for not know the history of your posts. But based on your last post, id say you dont often admit youre wrong

WOW... You're 0-2.

TheDave
10-16-2009, 01:49 PM
There are still many fan/posters playing the fence game. You can see it in their comments and posting. They are stradling the fence touching both sides of the ground waiting to jump back over the minute something goes bad.



Yeah damn it, you all need to love this team Heav Style... Hilarious!

Tombstone RJ
10-16-2009, 02:10 PM
Fatsis is right about one thing (I did not read all the SI article, just guessing hear on what he wrote): Yelling, screaming and intimidation does not work for an extended amount of time in the pros.

That is, it will work for a little while, but then the players will eventually tune the coach out. When that happens, the coach will lose the team and no matter how good he is at the X's and O's, the message will fall on deaf ears.

A good coach does not have to intimidate his players into playing good football, he simply has to instill confidence in the team that they can win every game, if they execute the game plan.

Some coaches are more rah-rah in their approach (Bill Cowher for example) and some coaches are more pragmatic in their approach (Shanny comes to mind hear, Holmgren may be another coach that fits this style).

But yah, yelling and screaming and an iron fist approach don't work on guys getting paid huge contracts to produce wins, at least not for an extended amount of time...

Fatsis is just pointing out the obvious.

baja
10-16-2009, 03:03 PM
There are still many fan/posters playing the fence game. You can see it in their comments and posting. They are stradling the fence touching both sides of the ground waiting to jump back over the minute something goes bad.

This Broncos team isn't undefeatable, it's not perfect, there are weakness on both side of the ball and on special teams. This team will have loses on it's record. But this [BTEAM[/B] will play hard every game.


Back to the topic.
Trying to compare McDaniels situation with Haley and Mangini is like comparing night and day.

Todd Haley got his job due to his relationship with Scott Pioli.

Mangini got his 2nd gig becuase Randy Lerner (Browns owner) has a hard-on for Patriots and so want to be the Patriots that he thinks if he keeps hiring Bills Asst. that it will happen.

Josh was the wild horse (yes pun intended) during the interview process. He impressed Pat Bowlen, he was prepared and was confident and sold the owner on his plan. He won the job.

As far as yelling or using intimidation... please the previous coach was known to be just as intimidating...hell there was a reason why people call him napoleon.

Now we all can make a case that Josh came into a franchise with clearly more talent on the offensive side of the ball. Making his job of inserting his offense easier than in Cleveland & KC.

It's what Josh did on defense that proves he's not a napoleon type. He went out and hired a former head coach and a man that has years of experience in coaching. He put the defense in Nolans hands and oh by the way Nolan is a yeller also! He's a strict coach that demands the best from his players!

As far as what the "fans have seen" the players love coach McDaniels. He's earned the respect of Dawkins and Bailey.

As far has chewing out the offense in the Dallas game...he was right to do so! Orton and crew had played like crap and needed woken up!

Is Mangini an A-hole? Yes clearly he is a wanna-be and his action with spy-gate is very telling about him.

Is Haley an A-hole? Not sure, he's team is bad and he has a great deal of work to do so anger/frustration can be seen.

Is Josh an A-hole? No! He's demanding of his players, he's vocal with them on the field.

Heard an interesting tit bit on Inside the NFL - Nolan,in a conversation with Cris Collinsworth was asked if he was like a co head coach with Josh. Nolan said no way in Hell to the contrary Josh was 100% the head coach and that he is doing an amazing job.

snowspot66
10-16-2009, 03:23 PM
Fatsis is right about one thing (I did not read all the SI article, just guessing hear on what he wrote): Yelling, screaming and intimidation does not work for an extended amount of time in the pros.

That is, it will work for a little while, but then the players will eventually tune the coach out. When that happens, the coach will lose the team and no matter how good he is at the X's and O's, the message will fall on deaf ears.

A good coach does not have to intimidate his players into playing good football, he simply has to instill confidence in the team that they can win every game, if they execute the game plan.

Some coaches are more rah-rah in their approach (Bill Cowher for example) and some coaches are more pragmatic in their approach (Shanny comes to mind hear, Holmgren may be another coach that fits this style).

But yah, yelling and screaming and an iron fist approach don't work on guys getting paid huge contracts to produce wins, at least not for an extended amount of time...

Fatsis is just pointing out the obvious.

I think we can all agree with that. The anger comes from the implication that McDaniels is in that group of yelling coaches when there is a lot of evidence to contradict that statement and the evidence in support of it, to be polite, is flimsy at best.

Bronco Warrior
10-16-2009, 03:28 PM
There are alot of pathetic articles and quotes with Belichick getting all the credit for McDaniels but they are just a bunch of losers trying to get on the McD bandwagon! If it was all BeliCHEAT then why is Josh the only one of his "pupils" that haven't gone down is flames? Josh took the X's and O's that he perfected...more than Belicheat ever dd, and incorperated his own personality and style. that's why he is 5-0 and guys like Mangini is 1-4. McDaniels will be the first Coordinator of Bill's to not fail horribly trying to be Belichick! He will succeed and won't have to cheat or look the other way while guys like Harrison shoots up Roids!

TheDave
10-16-2009, 03:34 PM
There are alot of pathetic articles and quotes with Belichick getting all the credit for McDaniels but they are just a bunch of losers trying to get on the McD bandwagon! If it was all BeliCHEAT then why is Josh the only one of his "pupils" that haven't gone down is flames? Josh took the X's and O's that he perfected...more than Belicheat ever dd, and incorperated his own personality and style. that's why he is 5-0 and guys like Mangini is 1-4. McDaniels will be the first Coordinator of Bill's to not fail horribly trying to be Belichick! He will succeed and won't have to cheat or look the other way while guys like Harrison shoots up Roids!

Easy there killer...

BB has proven to be one of the all time greats... So far, McD has proven to be a good coach for 5 games. Until he wins a ring or two of his own, he's going to be under BB's shadow.

SonOfLe-loLang
10-16-2009, 03:43 PM
WOW... You're 0-2.

i have a strong feeling im not.

TheDave
10-16-2009, 03:47 PM
i have a strong feeling im not.

You sure it's me that has a problem admiting when they are wrong?

project much...;)

Popps
10-16-2009, 05:21 PM
While I agree somewhat with what you're saying, the fact of the matter is that McDaniels did receive management training from Belichick. It's one of the more annoying things about this article. After McD refused to interview for Head Coaching positions during the 2007 playoffs, Belichick basically took McDaniels under his wing and truly mentored him as a preparation for a head coaching gig. There were numerous articles last week about how Belichick trained him in running a Front Office, draft, free agency, etc.

Here's Fatsis quote from the article:



Now, here is an article from last week (from the same magazine as Fatsis' article, mind you):

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writers/jim_trotter/10/06/mcdaniels.belichick/index.html



This directly contradicts Fatsis' statements. It's just annoying to read. It really is like this article was written a couple months ago, and then just updated after the Broncos 5-0 start without taking any recent evidence into account.


Wow, excellent work. Fatsis could have used you to do some groundwork before the article. :)

Circle Orange
10-16-2009, 06:41 PM
Young coaches learn by example from old and middle aged coaches. It's the way of the NFL jungle.

Some of these mistakes are from lack of experience in dealing with the job (and people). The good ones learn and keep their jobs. Jerks end up in the stands with the fans.

MOCRUSH
10-16-2009, 07:43 PM
age of Obama?????? ssooooo 2008

baja
10-16-2009, 08:27 PM
It's a decent point, the lack of people skills training. Lots of good tools and techniques appear to be overlooked by the NFL.


OMG has anyone seen the "Brain fart" commercial??? SOOOO FUNNY>>

broncocalijohn
10-16-2009, 09:40 PM
There are still many fan/posters playing the fence game. You can see it in their comments and posting. They are stradling the fence touching both sides of the ground waiting to jump back over the minute something goes bad.



I totally agree and cant think of one that has decided to give this coach and team a fighting chance but is fence sitting. Just look at Buff who started this thread. He seems genuine on being converted to McDaniels and the way the team goes but his comments and/or thread starting just doesnt seem 100%. It is like 70% with 30% as a back handed compliment.

baja
10-16-2009, 10:05 PM
I totally agree and cant think of one that has decided to give this coach and team a fighting chance but is fence sitting. Just look at Buff who started this thread. He seems genuine on being converted to McDaniels and the way the team goes but his comments and/or thread starting just doesnt seem 100%. It is like 70% with 30% as a back handed compliment.


I suspect Buff has arguments with himself. ;D

TheReverend
10-17-2009, 06:55 PM
I agree the team will face adversity and lose some games, but mr. dave refuses to give credit where credit is due, as if the first 5 games haven't counted. And i agree with you, i remember saying to myself before ot last week that there's no shame in losing this game, we've played hard.

Completely agree. Going into the 4th quarter from behind, I still thought it was the best team performance of the season

TonyR
10-17-2009, 07:09 PM
Yeah damn it, you all need to love this team Heav Style...

This is pretty funny considering you're exactly the type of poster he's talking about.

TheReverend
10-17-2009, 07:27 PM
This is pretty funny considering you're exactly the type of poster he's talking about.

I saw enough on Sunday, but prior to that I would certainly include myself in that crowd. Even now I am curious to see how they'll react when they hit some adversity, which is a big chunk of what TheDave is talking about.

But what's the problem with that? What's wrong with being pleasantly surprised by the turn of events yet remaining cautious because, despite the great play on Sunday, we have a small sample size.

I'm still cautious on Orton. I voted him air player of the week and gave him all his due props for Sunday, but I don't know if it will stick. After all, it can't be JUST the glove. We saw plenty of horrid throws in pre-season before he hurt his finger.

Am I optimistic that all of his mechanics were addressed by McDaniels and that it was 95+% system related? Sure, but I don't KNOW yet.

Time will settle all of this. People rushing people to change their opinions is just silly, imo.

TonyR
10-17-2009, 07:35 PM
I saw enough on Sunday, but prior to that I would certainly include myself in that crowd. Even now I am curious to see how they'll react when they hit some adversity, which is a big chunk of what TheDave is talking about.


I understand the caution and have no problem with it. I'm certainly not sitting here expecting 16-0 and a run to the Super Bowl. I just don't understand why some people still feel the need to come up with ridiculous criticism (McD yells too much, for example) instead of enjoying this team. Some people seem afraid to buy in. Maybe I'm too easy to please. Right now I'll be happy with making the playoffs and being competitive in them, although I'm sure if/when it gets to that point my expectations will increase.

TheReverend
10-17-2009, 07:45 PM
I understand the caution and have no problem with it. I'm certainly not sitting here expecting 16-0 and a run to the Super Bowl. I just don't understand why some people still feel the need to come up with ridiculous criticism (McD yells too much, for example) instead of enjoying this team. Some people seem afraid to buy in. Maybe I'm too easy to please. Right now I'll be happy with making the playoffs and being competitive in them, although I'm sure if/when it gets to that point my expectations will increase.

If Denver wins Monday night, playoffs AND the division become a foregone conclusion. The game and the lead-up are going to be insanely exciting regardless.

However, I think TheDave's gripe is legitimate. I personally disagree with Buff saying the yelling is over the top because I think that competitive fire is the best way to communicate in those situations and fuel a player.

That being said, these are two guys I've known for a long time and their fanhood is beyond being questionable. ****, despite being malcontent with the new regime, Buff STILL spent a significant amount of money to come out to camps, and back for OM weekend.

I think everyone needs to take two steps back. This is a forum that's built for communicating and expressing your thoughts, and more often than not, in a fiery and confrontational way because EVERYONE is passionate about this team (except that jerk off Tsiguy).

tsiguy96
10-17-2009, 08:05 PM
(except that jerk off Tsiguy).

youre right, i didnt just drive 15 hours each way on a 3 day weekend to watch a bronco game. good call jackass.

DBroncos4life
10-17-2009, 08:09 PM
youre right, i didnt just drive 15 hours each way on a 3 day weekend to watch a bronco game. good call jackass.

was it up hill in the snow?

tsiguy96
10-17-2009, 08:10 PM
was it up hill in the snow?

actually yes it was uphill. illinois --> denver

and no, not all of it was in snow, but about an hour was in light snow...

DBroncos4life
10-17-2009, 08:13 PM
actually yes it was uphill. illinois --> denver

and no, not all of it was in snow, but about an hour was in light snow...

Man the 2004 class would be so proud

TheReverend
10-17-2009, 08:18 PM
youre right, i didnt just drive 15 hours each way on a 3 day weekend to watch a bronco game. good call jackass.

http://titterass.com/Pics/hurtfeelingsreport.jpg

delany
10-17-2009, 08:21 PM
I understand the caution and have no problem with it. I'm certainly not sitting here expecting 16-0 and a run to the Super Bowl. I just don't understand why some people still feel the need to come up with ridiculous criticism (McD yells too much, for example) instead of enjoying this team. Some people seem afraid to buy in. Maybe I'm too easy to please. Right now I'll be happy with making the playoffs and being competitive in them, although I'm sure if/when it gets to that point my expectations will increase.

So now you will be happy with making the playoffs and being competitive? You have come far in five weeks yourself. EVERYBODY has elevated their expectations on this year.

So now you don't understand why some people still feel the need to come up with, what you feel is, ridiculous criticism? I think the more intriguing question is why do you care? Are you truly not going to be happy until everybody views the Denver Broncos through the same lens that you use, at the exact time that you use it?

tsiguy96
10-17-2009, 08:21 PM
Man the 2004 class would be so proud

thats cool, feel better now?

tsiguy96
10-17-2009, 08:22 PM
super awesome post v2

hey youre the one telling people to calm down then wait it out, then posting dumb **** about me that you clearly know isnt true.

DBroncos4life
10-17-2009, 08:23 PM
thats cool, feel better now?

http://titterass.com/Pics/hurtfeelingsreport.jpg


I have nothing on the Rev

TheReverend
10-17-2009, 08:30 PM
hey youre the one telling people to calm down then wait it out, then posting dumb **** about me that you clearly know isnt true.

but it's soooooooooooo fun

TailgateNut
10-17-2009, 08:41 PM
I suspect Buff has arguments with himself. ;D

only when others aren't watching:wiggle:

TailgateNut
10-17-2009, 08:44 PM
http://titterass.com/Pics/hurtfeelingsreport.jpg

all bitching, whining and hormonal imbalance issues aside, what have you done to show your support?






Nada, zilch, nothing.

TheReverend
10-17-2009, 08:54 PM
all b****ing, whining and hormonal imbalance issues aside, what have you done to show your support?






Nada, zilch, nothing.

Good to see the fan police are still earning their tax dollars.

TheDave
10-17-2009, 09:08 PM
This is pretty funny considering you're exactly the type of poster he's talking about.

That's probably why I replied to him Einstein.

Look I'm in on the joke... you don't like me. That's OK, but you don't need to go out of your way to make that apparent in every post.

The teams undefeated... try to enjoy it, I know I am.

Killericon
10-18-2009, 12:27 AM
Could someone do up a chart for all the petty, petulant rivalries we have going on the OM these days? It's so hard to keep track of.

gunns
10-18-2009, 09:28 AM
hey youre the one telling people to calm down then wait it out, then posting dumb **** about me that you clearly know isnt true.


Well, if that isn't the pot calling the kettle black. Wow.

TonyR
10-18-2009, 09:42 AM
Look I'm in on the joke... you don't like me.

The teams undefeated... try to enjoy it, I know I am.

Dave I don't "dislike" anyone here, but I do dislike what some of you have to say. Huge difference. This isn't personal, or at least it shouldn't be.

And speaking of being in on jokes, lololol at you telling me to try to enjoy it!

TheDave
10-18-2009, 09:44 AM
Dave I don't "dislike" anyone here, but I do dislike what some of you have to say. Huge difference. This isn't personal, or at least it shouldn't be.

And speaking of being in on jokes, lololol at you telling me to try to enjoy it!

Fair enough, then what did I say in this thread that you disagreed with?

TonyR
10-18-2009, 09:44 AM
You have come far in five weeks yourself.

Yes, the self help course Buff suggested has been working wonders.

BroncoBuff
10-18-2009, 02:24 PM
Yes, the self help course Buff suggested has been working wonders.

LOL ... we should all be able to laugh at ourselves like that.

I do it every morning when I look in the mirror :~ohyah!:

theAPAOps5
10-18-2009, 03:00 PM
LOL ... we should all be able to laugh at ourselves like that.

I do it every morning when I look in the mirror :~ohyah!:

Me too except its when I pee! ;D