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View Full Version : Running plays...Up the gut = NO! Wait a minute...


ScottXray
10-13-2009, 04:29 PM
I got these stats from football outsiders, So hope they are accurate. I believe they are.
http://footballoutsiders.com/


There were several (numerous ) mentions that McD seems to have
like for running it directly up the gut, during the game threads and a few others. And we did seem to get stuffed there last week.

Below are the carries for Denver by the position run against or to in % for the year:


RB Carries LT. END LT. TACKLE MID/GUARD RT.TACKLE RT. END
DEN 142 8% 6% 67% 12% 7%

And here are the adjusted line yards (ALY) accomplished by those runs:


TEAM ALY ALY RANK ALY RANK ALY RANK ALY RANK ALY RANK
LT. END LT TACKLE MID/GUARD RT. TACKLE RT. END
DEN 4.69 11 1.02 31 4.98 3 4.62 11 5.85 4

This indicates that we are third in the league in success up the middle. Also we are Not sucessful going directly against Cladys Opposite (surprising), yet fairly successful going outside (either end), but more so to the right. However, we are pretty bad in percentage of plays that are stuffed (25% and 29th in the league). (the stats are from the Offensive line stats)

I'm not sure what to make of this, other than when we go up the middle it seem we would do better trying Kuper/ Harris and not Clady /Hamilton. It does seem that we have run that way (left) more often than not when getting stuffed , and that we would do well trying to incorporate more pitches and tosses, or sweeps, and trying to get more to the outside than we have. The lack of success going toward Clady (31st in the league) is very surprising.

Merlin
10-13-2009, 04:33 PM
The problem is when he decides to run it up Wilfork. His offense always considers the opponent, but in the NE game, he seemed to have forgotten at times

cutthemdown
10-13-2009, 04:38 PM
Going up the middle is one of those plays that you have to keep pounding at to have success. I love how Mcdaniels calls the plays. This kid is slick. Yes Wilfork was stuffing Hamilton and the run, but didn't you notice later in the game how Wilfork seemed tired?

You don't run away from guys like Wilfork, you run it at him and make him work 4 quarters. IMO Shanny was also very smart when it came to this, as well as Kubiak etc.

Running the ball is as much about dedication to it, as it is having talent at it.

Tombstone RJ
10-13-2009, 04:43 PM
I got these stats from football outsiders, So hope they are accurate. I believe they are.
http://footballoutsiders.com/


There were several (numerous ) mentions that McD seems to have
like for running it directly up the gut, during the game threads and a few others. And we did seem to get stuffed there last week.

Below are the carries for Denver by the position run against or to in % for the year:


RB Carries LT. END LT. TACKLE MID/GUARD RT.TACKLE RT. END
DEN 142 8% 6% 67% 12% 7%

And here are the adjusted line yards (ALY) accomplished by those runs:


TEAM ALY ALY RANK ALY RANK ALY RANK ALY RANK ALY RANK
LT. END LT TACKLE MID/GUARD RT. TACKLE RT. END
DEN 4.69 11 1.02 31 4.98 3 4.62 11 5.85 4

This indicates that we are third in the league in success up the middle. Also we are Not sucessful going directly against Cladys Opposite (surprising), yet fairly successful going outside (either end), but more so to the right. However, we are pretty bad in percentage of plays that are stuffed (25% and 29th in the league). (the stats are from the Offensive line stats)

I'm not sure what to make of this, other than when we go up the middle it seem we would do better trying Kuper/ Harris and not Clady /Hamilton. It does seem that we have run that way (left) more often than not when getting stuffed , and that we would do well trying to incorporate more pitches and tosses, or sweeps, and trying to get more to the outside than we have. The lack of success going toward Clady (31st in the league) is very surprising.

I'm not sure running Moreno up the damn middle all the time makes any damn sense. Yah, ok, run him up the middle every once in a while to keep the defense honest but for heaven's sake, run him off tackle and to the outside where his true skills can be showcased.

Jordon, up the middle. Hillis, up the middle, Larsen, up the middle (Jordon and Hillis out of the single back formation).

Moreno and Buck, to the outside more than up the gut.

Bob
10-13-2009, 04:48 PM
Going up the middle is one of those plays that you have to keep pounding at to have success. I love how Mcdaniels calls the plays. This kid is slick. Yes Wilfork was stuffing Hamilton and the run, but didn't you notice later in the game how Wilfork seemed tired?

You don't run away from guys like Wilfork, you run it at him and make him work 4 quarters. IMO Shanny was also very smart when it came to this, as well as Kubiak etc.

Running the ball is as much about dedication to it, as it is having talent at it.

I think so too, you have to keep-em honest...considering how heavy that guy is, I thought he played quite well throughout the game -- wish we had him.

TheChamp24
10-13-2009, 04:51 PM
I was dying to see a sweep or toss play in there, because I thought it would've gone for big yards in some of those short runs that we ran up the middle.

ScottXray
10-13-2009, 04:52 PM
I'm not sure running Moreno up the damn middle all the time makes any damn sense. Yah, ok, run him up the middle every once in a while to keep the defense honest but for heaven's sake, run him off tackle and to the outside where his true skills can be showcased.

Jordon, up the middle. Hillis, up the middle, Larsen, up the middle (Jordon and Hillis out of the single back formation).

Moreno and Buck, to the outside more than up the gut.

We think alike. Power back up the middle, but Moreno and Buck would do better more outside (off tackle).

I wonder if we see 2-3 TE sets this week, (Graham and Quinn) and run more right with Graham sealing the edge. We need Moreno to see 25+ carries this week. Sure would be nice to see holes for him to run through.

cutthemdown
10-13-2009, 04:53 PM
Wilfork? Oh yeah I wish we had him also. Could you imagine a beast like that in the middle? Fields playing great but he's more of a role player then a star like Wilfork. Feilds playing really well though, he's just not the beast Wilfork is.

There are only a couple players in the league like Wilfork.

Ambiguous
10-13-2009, 04:53 PM
I'm not sure running Moreno up the damn middle all the time makes any damn sense. Yah, ok, run him up the middle every once in a while to keep the defense honest but for heaven's sake, run him off tackle and to the outside where his true skills can be showcased.

Jordon, up the middle. Hillis, up the middle, Larsen, up the middle (Jordon and Hillis out of the single back formation).

Moreno and Buck, to the outside more than up the gut.


Hillis is still on the team?

cutthemdown
10-13-2009, 04:55 PM
Sweeps and run to the outiside look to the laymen like they would work well but in reality the NFL is not about trying to go outside. You run outside and you see team YPC go down, its just a fact.

The way you make yrds in the NFL is pounding away for 2-3.5 yrds a pop. Then when you finally pop one or 2 runs it brings that avg up. But the money is the grind it out, never take negative yardage type attack.

Believe it or not 3 yrds on first down isn't a bad play. 2-3 yrds on 2nd down is not a bad play. 3 and 5 is very manageable and is what Mcdaniels is shooting for.

Merlin
10-13-2009, 04:55 PM
Going up the middle is one of those plays that you have to keep pounding at to have success. I love how Mcdaniels calls the plays. This kid is slick. Yes Wilfork was stuffing Hamilton and the r
Agreed, but I was thinking more along the lines third and short. I seem to remember a couple of those runs, and don't care for it. However, I do agree you want to run them in general, not only to fatigue the players, but to keep the defense honest. That is why I think it is stupid to give up on the run just because your putting up poor yards per rush. Running game should always be part and parcel of every offense, no matter how effective it is.

azbroncfan
10-13-2009, 05:05 PM
Usually when you run the draws out of the gun they go pretty close to up the middle.

rastaman
10-13-2009, 05:13 PM
I'm not sure running Moreno up the damn middle all the time makes any damn sense. Yah, ok, run him up the middle every once in a while to keep the defense honest but for heaven's sake, run him off tackle and to the outside where his true skills can be showcased.

Jordon, up the middle. Hillis, up the middle, Larsen, up the middle (Jordon and Hillis out of the single back formation).

Moreno and Buck, to the outside more than up the gut.

How about running up the middle with Hillis lead blocking for Moreno! That would work!

Tombstone RJ
10-13-2009, 05:20 PM
Sweeps and run to the outiside look to the laymen like they would work well but in reality the NFL is not about trying to go outside. You run outside and you see team YPC go down, its just a fact.

The way you make yrds in the NFL is pounding away for 2-3.5 yrds a pop. Then when you finally pop one or 2 runs it brings that avg up. But the money is the grind it out, never take negative yardage type attack.

Believe it or not 3 yrds on first down isn't a bad play. 2-3 yrds on 2nd down is not a bad play. 3 and 5 is very manageable and is what Mcdaniels is shooting for.

This is the only reason why McD is using Moreno the way he is. That is, he's pounding the rock in the hopes of wearing down the defense and with the hopes that Moreno will break a long run every once in a while.

My contention is that Moreno is gonna wear down if this is how McD is gonna use him all the time. Maybe have Buckhalter around is really giving McD the flexibility to continue running Moreno up the middle.

cutthemdown
10-13-2009, 05:21 PM
Usually when you run the draws out of the gun they go pretty close to up the middle.

Well draw plays be design are meant to draw the front 7 past the LOS, then bust the RB past them. I'm trying to picture a draw play that is designed to go outside. Not sure you ever really see that. I think if you want to attack the outside against a defense that is attacking really hard you run a screen, a draw play would be to slow to develop to try and get the runner outside.

I'm no coach though just going on what I have seen over the years.

listopencil
10-13-2009, 05:22 PM
I'm thinking we are so bad at plays getting stuffed because of the short yardage running weakness. I haven't looked at a stats vs. plays comparison, but it seems like we get into these situations where we need to pick up 1 or 2 yards for a first. We line up, the opposing Defense lines up...and we can't block to save our freaking lives. The goal line against the Raiders, that failed 4th down attempt (who was that?), I can't remember picking up a short conversion by run all year.

ScottXray
10-13-2009, 05:34 PM
That's why I'd like to see a few toss sweeps or pitch outs.. the RB gets the ball fairly quickly and is able to see the hole develope or cut it outside the end further if there is nothing near the Tackle/Guard position.

Obviously it would be better if you simply hand off to a back coming towards a hole but we have been getting stuffed quite a bit. On a hand off he doens't have as much room to change direction and justs runs into a pile if its stuffed. Moreno made a great play last week on such a play when he was able to cut right around the stacked line and take it outside, but for a while it looked like it would be a no gain.

Taco John
10-13-2009, 05:35 PM
I'm thinking we are so bad at plays getting stuffed because of the short yardage running weakness.


That's because our short yardage stud is being kept on the bench.

It's very difficult to second guess McDaniels at this point - but every third down that Hillis isn't on the field, I have trouble not wondering why Hillis isn't being given an opportunity. From what I've seen of him and Jordan, I'd much rather have Hillis in there on third downs.

azbroncfan
10-13-2009, 05:38 PM
Well draw plays be design are meant to draw the front 7 past the LOS, then bust the RB past them. I'm trying to picture a draw play that is designed to go outside. Not sure you ever really see that. I think if you want to attack the outside against a defense that is attacking really hard you run a screen, a draw play would be to slow to develop to try and get the runner outside.

I'm no coach though just going on what I have seen over the years.

That is what I said without explaining it. Denver runs the ball a lot out of the Gun and the off G and Draws will always go between the T's.

Arkie
10-13-2009, 06:00 PM
Hillis produces when given the chance. He'll get another chance to shine. Even though he's only had four carries, he's produced a TD in that limited role (same as Buck or Moreno in their 118 carries)

rastaman
10-13-2009, 06:05 PM
The problem is when he decides to run it up Wilfork. His offense always considers the opponent, but in the NE game, he seemed to have forgotten at times

Wilfolk should have been doubled team. Hillis could have helped out alot in this this regard.

Point is, I'd like to see Hillis be used as a lead blocker for Moreno....just like Griffin was used as the lead blocker for Terrell Davis in 96, 97, and 98.

Broncomutt
10-13-2009, 06:12 PM
That's because our short yardage stud is being kept on the bench.

It's very difficult to second gue is something I am missing here.ess McDaniels at this point - but every third down that Hillis isn't on the field, I have trouble not wondering why Hillis isn't being given an opportunity. From what I've seen of him and Jordan, I'd much rather have Hillis in there on third downs.

I agree, where the hell is Hillis on those crucial make or break 1st down opportunities?

My only criticsm of McD so far is why are you trying to make Moreno "the bruiser"?

Third/Fourth and inches is time to punish the defense, not out-fox them.

chadta
10-13-2009, 06:14 PM
what about hillis and moreno in the backfeild, fake to hillis up the middle, then toss out to moreno,

hey it works for me in madden

cutthemdown
10-13-2009, 06:15 PM
Wilfolk should have been doubled team. Hillis could have helped out alot in this this regard.

Point is, I'd like to see Hillis be used as a lead blocker for Moreno....just like Griffin was used as the lead blocker for Terrell Davis in 96, 97, and 98.

How is a FB going to double team a tackle? You just don't really see that. They are to get into the hole and take out linebackers and safety's. You really know very little about football just give it up.

LOL we should have used Hillis to block Wilfork. Get a clue.

If you double Wilfork it would be a guard center thing you moron.

cutthemdown
10-13-2009, 06:16 PM
what about hillis and moreno in the backfeild, fake to hillis up the middle, then toss out to moreno,

hey it works for me in madden

If we face a team our coach feels we are faster then I'm sure you will see us attack the edges.

Drek
10-13-2009, 06:31 PM
That's because our short yardage stud is being kept on the bench.

It's very difficult to second guess McDaniels at this point - but every third down that Hillis isn't on the field, I have trouble not wondering why Hillis isn't being given an opportunity. From what I've seen of him and Jordan, I'd much rather have Hillis in there on third downs.

Hillis doesn't belong on the field right now as anything but a lead blocker.

He's **** the bed on special teams, in the flats as a receiving target, and carrying the ball. He cost us a timeout just this weekend because he didn't know how to get into position.

He SHOULD have been a bigger, stronger Kevin Faulk for us, but he doesn't seem to know what he's doing out there right now.

I'm sure it'll click for him sooner than later. This team has the kind of mindset that fits his preferred style of football. But right now he can't play mistake free football, so right now we can't afford to waste touches on him running up Kuper's back on runs or missing his blocking assignments in pass pro.

houghtam
10-13-2009, 07:18 PM
Hillis doesn't belong on the field right now as anything but a lead blocker.

He's **** the bed on special teams, in the flats as a receiving target, and carrying the ball. He cost us a timeout just this weekend because he didn't know how to get into position.

He SHOULD have been a bigger, stronger Kevin Faulk for us, but he doesn't seem to know what he's doing out there right now.

I'm sure it'll click for him sooner than later. This team has the kind of mindset that fits his preferred style of football. But right now he can't play mistake free football, so right now we can't afford to waste touches on him running up Kuper's back on runs or missing his blocking assignments in pass pro.

Hillis would find a way to fumble as a lead blocker, or get an illegal block in the back while carrying the ball.

He had some bright spots last year, but I was never quite sold on him. He's got a ton of work to do to work his way out of McD's doghouse, and it starts on special teams. No way in hell I want him in the backfield unless we're up by 30 at this point.

Wait no, 40.