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HEAV
10-08-2009, 02:02 PM
Posted by ESPN.com’s Bill (Burger) Williamson

Jay Cutler and Kyle Orton will forever be connected since they were traded for one another. Denver also received two first-round picks in the huge April deal with Chicago.

http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/4126/capturew.jpg

But they are linked for a different reason after the first four games of the season. Their statistics are very similar. Orton is the No. 14-ranked quarterback in the NFL. Cutler is the 15th-ranked quarterback.

It’s strange because the two are completely different quarterbacks. Cutler lets loose and is a gunslinger, while Orton is more of a game manager.

Yet, the bottom line is production and the two are helping their teams win. Denver is 4-0 and Chicago is 3-1.

There is still a long way to go before this trade can be fully analyzed. But considering the close numbers, Denver’s 4-0 start and that the Broncos got two first-rounders in the deal, Denver gets the early edge.
Uncategorized, Denver Broncos, Jay Cutler, Chicago


http://espn.go.com/blog/afcwest/post/_/id/4886/cutler-and-orton-are-putting-up-similar-numbers

Rock Chalk
10-08-2009, 02:03 PM
Posted by ESPN.com’s Bill (Burger) Williamson

Jay Cutler and Kyle Orton will forever be connected since they were traded for one another. Denver also received two first-round picks in the huge April deal with Chicago.

http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/4126/capturew.jpg

But they are linked for a different reason after the first four games of the season. Their statistics are very similar. Orton is the No. 14-ranked quarterback in the NFL. Cutler is the 15th-ranked quarterback.

It’s strange because the two are completely different quarterbacks. Cutler lets loose and is a gunslinger, while Orton is more of a game manager.

Yet, the bottom line is production and the two are helping their teams win. Denver is 4-0 and Chicago is 3-1.

There is still a long way to go before this trade can be fully analyzed. But considering the close numbers, Denver’s 4-0 start and that the Broncos got two first-rounders in the deal, Denver gets the early edge.
Uncategorized, Denver Broncos, Jay Cutler, Chicago


http://espn.go.com/blog/afcwest/post/_/id/4886/cutler-and-orton-are-putting-up-similar-numbers

But but but Orton benefitted from Stokely's miracle and Brandon's awesomeness.

All kidding aside, the only stat on that sheet I care about is the big fat 0 in the interception column.

BroncoMan4ever
10-08-2009, 02:10 PM
But but but Orton benefitted from Stokely's miracle and Brandon's awesomeness.

All kidding aside, the only stat on that sheet I care about is the big fat 0 in the interception column.

the other 0 i care about is in the loss column

HEAV
10-08-2009, 02:11 PM
I'd like to see the Comp % for Orton higher. But still I'm happy with his play thus far.

Popps
10-08-2009, 02:12 PM
Yea, but dude, like... if Cutler was our QB right now, we'd be like 10-0.

Mr. Elway
10-08-2009, 02:16 PM
I'd like to see the Comp % for Orton higher. But still I'm happy with his play thus far.

I think this is really an interesting point to look at. Certainly Orton has thrown some off-target balls, but some of this can be attributed to the fact that Orton tends to throw it away rather than into coverage, and Cutler vice versa.

Cutler is more accurate than Orton, this we know. But all other things being equal, a gunslinger will probably have more INTs and a higher completion % than a caretaker.

Rock Chalk
10-08-2009, 02:16 PM
I'd like to see the Comp % for Orton higher. But still I'm happy with his play thus far.

I suspect it will go up as his comfort with the offense goes up and the receivers get more comfortable in recognizing their routes based on teh defense.

vs Dallas: 69%
vs Oakland: 56%
vs Cleveland: 51%
vs Cincy: 61%

I think we will probably see his end of year % somewhere around the 62-66% which is more than acceptable.

Peoples Champ
10-08-2009, 02:16 PM
INTs is the bigest, if Broncos had 5 INTs we would be 2-2 maybe 1-3

Rock Chalk
10-08-2009, 02:18 PM
INTs is the bigest, if Broncos had 5 INTs we would be 2-2 maybe 1-3

I agree, even given the 3 more TDs Cutler has thrown, 5 ints and this team would be in trouble.

NYBronco
10-08-2009, 02:18 PM
I'm happy with Orton and expect improvement after the throwing hand fully heals and the glove is removed. Also when the offense can cut down on the penalties they should be more efficient and productive.

The Joker
10-08-2009, 02:21 PM
Jay has the edge in completion percentage, but Orton has thrown away about 12-15 of those incompletions. I'm sure if he really tried to make a play on those 12-15 balls his completion % would be higher. So would his INT number though.

I'll take Orton's TD-INT numbers over Cutler's all day long.

HEAV
10-08-2009, 02:26 PM
Jay has the edge in completion percentage, but Orton has thrown away about 12-15 of those incompletions. I'm sure if he really tried to make a play on those 12-15 balls his completion % would be higher. So would his INT number though.

I'll take Orton's TD-INT numbers over Cutler's all day long.

Especially in the redzone! How many times has Cutler thrown a pick in the redzone in early downs?

Play smart, play for teh next down.

HAT
10-08-2009, 02:42 PM
I suspect it will go up as his comfort with the offense goes up and the receivers get more comfortable in recognizing their routes based on teh defense.

vs Dallas: 69%
vs Oakland: 56%
vs Cleveland: 51%
vs Cincy: 61%

I think we will probably see his end of year % somewhere around the 62-66% which is more than acceptable.

Exactly....if he had completed a mere 6 more passes to date (1.5/game), he'd be at 64%.

No injury / no glove and he'd already be there.

Merlin
10-08-2009, 02:48 PM
a gunslinger will probably have more INTs and a higher completion % than a caretaker.
Higher INTS but usually better completion rate if they are also decent QBs, because they don't attempt difficult throws. You are giving way too much statically significance to his throwing the ball away, it is not anywhere as frequent as his missed passes. That being said, I'm happy with his play (other than the first game, which he still won).

Merlin
10-08-2009, 02:53 PM
INTs is the bigest, if Broncos had 5 INTs we would be 2-2 maybe 1-3
3 of the Interceptions happened in the first half of the first game, and a fourth one in the last play of that game when the rookie WR quit on a route. That being said, he brought the team back that game and gave them the lead. Another point is he was under attack that whole game, which would not have been the case here. It is highly unlikely Denver would have lost any games, especially when he does not have a history of losing games when the D is allowing less the 10 points.

Merlin
10-08-2009, 02:56 PM
Jay has the edge in completion percentage, but Orton has thrown away about 12-15 of those incompletions.
What date are you basing that on? Statistics are made up on the spot 92.7% of the time. From the games I have watch that number is WAY too high. His numbers are what they are because of inaccuracy. However, he is wearing a glove. Despite Orton's history of completing less than 60% of his throws, I have little doubt that will be the case with McD's offense. It is too well designed to protect the QB statistically (although that is not its goal).

errand
10-08-2009, 03:11 PM
Jay Cutler believes he could put the ball thru a mail slot....and that leads to INT's. Orton knows he can't...and that leads to a big fat 0 under INT.

I know alot of here might disagree, but this could be one of those trades like the Bailey-Portis trade where both teams benefit from it. We need to go .500 the rest of the way to have a decent shot at the playoffs at 10-6.

hookemhess
10-08-2009, 03:27 PM
I think someone hit the nail on the head this summer when they said that you can expect Cutler's production to drop off slightly and Orton's to increase slightly... thus bringing their numbers/production close.

On another note, anyone see Cutler #5 on Mike Sando's MVP race? (link: http://espn.go.com/blog/nfcwest/post/_/id/6500/mike-sandos-mvp-watch-3) Is it just me, or is this a little crazy?

TheElusiveKyleOrton
10-08-2009, 03:30 PM
I find it really interesting that since Cutler has started playing more Orton-like, the Bears are 3-0.

They traded for a gunslinger, and he was in game one. He's been a bus driver ever since.

mr007
10-08-2009, 03:33 PM
I agree, even given the 3 more TDs Cutler has thrown, 5 ints and this team would be in trouble.

Yeah especially since our receivers, backs, and oline are roughly equal to theirs. :hitself::hitself:

I'm sure things like sacks and 3rd down conversions etc would be roughly the same even if you reversed them!!

Killericon
10-08-2009, 03:41 PM
Their completions marks are 5% off. There's nothing close about that.

Finger Roll
10-08-2009, 03:50 PM
Their completions marks are 5% off. There's nothing close about that.

I don't see Cutler throwing with a glove on

BlaK-Argentina
10-08-2009, 03:59 PM
I don't see Cutler throwing with a glove on

I'll take 5% less passes completed and 5 less INTs, thank you very much.

HAT
10-08-2009, 04:05 PM
I'll take 5% less passes completed and 5 less INTs, thank you very much.

Especially given that that 5% we are speaking of id only 6 completions TOTAL at this point.

Odysseus
10-08-2009, 05:41 PM
Yea, but dude, like... if Cutler was our QB right now, we'd be like 10-0.

I am glad Cutler is with the Bears. I hope he does well there.

I am thrilled the Orton turned out to be Jake Plummer with a brain. Let him dink and dunk all day. If Orton gets a 10% improvement on completions he gets into the top 10 QB race.

I wish during the off season fans would take their medication.

Odysseus
10-08-2009, 05:44 PM
Kyle is 14. Cutler is 15.

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?tabSeq=0&statisticCategory=PASSING&conference=null&season=2009&seasonType=REG&d-447263-s=PASSING_YARDS&d-447263-o=2&d-447263-n=1

hookemhess
10-08-2009, 05:49 PM
Kyle is 14. Cutler is 15.

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?tabSeq=0&statisticCategory=PASSING&conference=null&season=2009&seasonType=REG&d-447263-s=PASSING_YARDS&d-447263-o=2&d-447263-n=1

Kyle cracks the top 10 in passer rating.

listopencil
10-08-2009, 06:16 PM
Kind of funny, didn't Cutler's numbers just get a bump? I heard he had a really good game this weekend.

Rock Chalk
10-08-2009, 06:25 PM
What date are you basing that on? Statistics are made up on the spot 92.7% of the time. From the games I have watch that number is WAY too high. His numbers are what they are because of inaccuracy. However, he is wearing a glove. Despite Orton's history of completing less than 60% of his throws, I have little doubt that will be the case with McD's offense. It is too well designed to protect the QB statistically (although that is not its goal).

There were 6 throw away's in ONE drive against Cleveland.

ONE drive.

So you are wrong. If the poster you quoted said there are about 12-15 throw aways from Orton in teh year I would say that is probably about right.

That two minute drive wasn't missing receivers, it was throwing the ball away.

Not to mention the Cincy game when he had SEVEN passes dropped.

Your fellatio of Cutler in this thread is quite amazing.

Rock Chalk
10-08-2009, 06:42 PM
http://footballoutsiders.com/stats/qb

This is a better comparison of how the QBs are playing this year.

*Note: This does not claim to tell you who are the best QBs. This is a statistical comparison of QB numbers for this year only and does not take into account injury, personnel, system, coaching, etc.

baja
10-08-2009, 07:01 PM
Interesting

Archedamian
10-08-2009, 07:29 PM
Fumbles for 2009. Kyle Orton 1 fumble, 0 lost. Jay Cutler 5 fumbles, 1 lost.

HILife
10-08-2009, 07:30 PM
INTs is the bigest, if Broncos had 5 INTs we would be 2-2 maybe 1-3

4 of those 5 INT were in week 1. He's only thrown 1 since then.

Inkana7
10-08-2009, 07:33 PM
4 of those 5 INT were in week 1. He's only thrown 1 since then.

I think the fact that the dude threw 4 picks in one game is indefensible.

hambone13
10-08-2009, 07:46 PM
I think the fact that the dude threw 4 picks in one game is indefensible.

As indefensible as his come from behind wins and increased efficiency since then...give it up...he's a better QB. I'll take his immature self centeredness over Orton any day of the week with our defense and Chicago's receivers and O-Line. Imagine what he would look like with all three....don't forget his winning percentage when the opposing team is held to 10 points or less.

mwill07
10-08-2009, 07:54 PM
analysis like these always leave off the most important stat: Desire to play for Denver. In that category, Orton dominates cutler so much it's not even funny.

dragondawg
10-08-2009, 07:59 PM
It a rarity, but so far Bears, Broncos both benefitting big time from big trade

BY NEIL HAYES nhayes@suntimes.com

Few could have predicted the biggest trade of the NFL's offseason and the most stunning in Bears' history would start so spectacularly for both teams. Kyle Orton and the Broncos are 4-0, and the Bears are 3-1 with Jay Cutler, prompting debates about which team got the better of the deal.

While the early returns have not produced a conclusive answer, this much is true: The Bears are a better team with Cutler than they were with Orton, and the Orton-led Broncos are vastly superior to the version that Cutler headlined last season for reasons that extend beyond the quarterback position.

Rarely do blockbuster deals like this produce happy endings, and after four games it's too early to predict the ultimate outcome given all the variables involved, but it has been a happy beginning in Chicago and Denver for Cutler and Orton.

There's also no doubt that both coaches -- Lovie Smith and Denver's Josh McDaniels -- got what they wanted.

The Bears needed a more dynamic player who could do what no Bears quarterback has done consistently for generations -- win games by himself when needed. Cutler has given them that. Meanwhile, Orton has been a good fit for a first-year coach who values his system more than individual talent.

As much as the Bears salivated at the prospect of acquiring a player with Cutler's skills, McDaniels wanted a quarterback content to execute his short-to-intermediate passing game and avoid turnovers.

That's why the former Patriots offensive coordinator risked alienating Cutler by discussing a trade for New England's Matt Cassel after being hired. McDaniels knows what it takes to succeed in his offense. Finding a quarterback content to play within that system was as important to him as quick feet and a rocket arm.
Stats can be deceiving

Why else would an offensive-minded coach inheriting a quarterback with some of the best tools in the trade seek a deal for a lesser talent? ''I will let you know when I get there,'' Orton said when asked if it would take him three years to master McDaniels' system. ''I hope it is sooner than that.''

Cutler and Orton are completely different players, but statistical comparisons are as fascinating as they are deceiving.

For example, Cutler has the lower quarterback rating but a higher completion percentage. Orton is averaging 7.7 yards per pass and 227 yards per game to Cutler's 7.0 and 225. Cutler has thrown eight touchdowns and five interceptions while Orton is one of two NFL QBs yet to throw a pick.

Both have completed 13 passes of 20-plus yards. Cutler's mobility is superior to Orton's, but he has been sacked eight times to Orton's six.

Despite how comparable the numbers are, Cutler has been more responsible for Chicago's success than Orton has been for Denver's.

Remember, Cutler wasn't the problem with the Broncos last season. The Denver offense ranked second in total offense and third in passing offense. When the team became the first NFL franchise ever to own a three-game lead with three to play and fail to qualify for the playoffs, it wasn't all Cutler's fault.

Denver surrendered 112 points in those final three games. How improved is the defense this season? A unit that features six new starters allowed 16 points in the first three games of '09 and 26 in the first four, which means first-year defensive coordinator Mike Nolan deserves more applause than Orton.
Knox an added plus

Cutler, on the other hand, has engineered two late drives to lift a Bears team missing Brian Urlacher over the Steelers and Seahawks. More important, the quarterback best equipped to become the league's premier gunslinger when Brett Favre retires has shown a willingness to protect the football.

The only thing that has been holding Cutler back has been his decision-making, which has turned into a strength for three straight games. Since his four-interception disaster in the season opener against the Packers, he has taken what the defense has given him instead of forcing plays downfield.

There is a sentiment in Denver that the Broncos are winning despite Orton instead of because of him. Many still suspect the team would have been better with Cutler. What if Mike Shanahan, who was replaced by McDaniels, had hired Nolan to retool the defense? Wouldn't the Broncos be better off with a more explosive Cutler-led offense and a dominating defense than they are with what they have now?

The Bears look like the beneficiaries of the trade now because of Cutler's success and because the fifth-rounder Denver threw into the deal produced Johnny Knox, who has been one of the most explosive and productive rookies in the league through the first four games. The Broncos have another first-round pick from the Bears in their back pocket, which could help tip the scales in their favor.

As of this moment, however, neither team is looking back.

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/1813433,CST-SPT-neil08.article

RhymesayersDU
10-08-2009, 08:04 PM
This discussion will be much like the Rivers/Eli debate, meaning, that while it's fun to argue over who is better, you have to remember Merriman & Kaeding too.

We'll see how Orton plays, obviously, as well as the development of Ayers and next year's draft pick. You could also make the argument that the Broncos probably wouldn't have dealt next year's pick to take Alphonso Smith if they didn't have the Bears' to fall back on. May be kind of a reach, but interesting nonetheless.

TheReverend
10-08-2009, 08:05 PM
Really good article start to finish.

tsiguy96
10-08-2009, 08:07 PM
very good article, i like how he makes sure to point out that for the systems, the QBs may not have been a fit in the first place. cant really look at the trade until next year but i like this article.

misturanderson
10-08-2009, 08:49 PM
This discussion will be much like the Rivers/Eli debate, meaning, that while it's fun to argue over who is better, you have to remember Merriman & Kaeding too.

The chargers clearly got the better end of this deal, but they don't have a ring because their coach is worthless, so the point is moot. We'll see how our deal turns out in a few years.

Rock Chalk
10-08-2009, 08:59 PM
Giants got a ring = Giants win in deal. Eli Manning put that team on his shoulders in that last drive and willed them to win. No matter how good Rivers and Kaeding are (Merriman sucks without Roids), they dont have a ring and Rivers damn sure didn't will his team to a SUperbowl victory.

skpac1001
10-08-2009, 09:09 PM
Yeah especially since our receivers, backs, and oline are roughly equal to theirs. :hitself::hitself:

I'm sure things like sacks and 3rd down conversions etc would be roughly the same even if you reversed them!!

:kiddingme

He had 4 picks at this point last year... with our O line, receivers. Is Moreno and Buck the secret to not throwing picks?

Jesterhole
10-08-2009, 09:50 PM
Cutler has the better feet, better arm, and is much more accurate. Orton is the better decision maker. Over time, I'd still rather have Cutler. But Orton is better than I gave him credit for.

BroncoBuff
10-08-2009, 09:56 PM
Orton has been great, awesome ... no interceptions is a big reason why we're 4-0

But comparing their stats as if Orton was a comparable player to Cutler is a bit silly. As I've often said, the professionals, guys who know a lot more than all of us, have spoken on the issue.

BroncoBuff
10-08-2009, 10:01 PM
He had 4 picks at this point last year... with our O line, receivers. Is Moreno and Buck the secret to not throwing picks?

I dunno ... hate to sound cynical, but luck has a lot to do with it too. Not just the Stokley miracle, but actually both TD passes against Dallas could have and maybe should have easily been intercepted. Knowshon's TD went right through Spencer's arms, and Newman of course had his hands on the Marshall TD. We should brace ourselves a bit for the inevitable bad game.

BlaK-Argentina
10-08-2009, 10:04 PM
Orton has been great, awesome ... no interceptions is a big reason why we're 4-0

But comparing their stats as if Orton was a comparable player to Cutler is a bit silly. As I've often said, the professionals, guys who know a lot more than all of us, have spoken on the issue.

They ARE comparable. They're both QB's, right? And it's not like Cutler is the best QB to ever play the game. They are both doing good things. I'm thrilled with our team and glad Cutler is having success.

We know how much you love Cutler, Buff, but saying the aren't comparable is too much. Cutler has done nothing so far in his career, and neither has Orton. We'll see where they go from here.

We know who has more PHYSICAL talent, but that's no reason to say they aren't comparable.

I have spoken, damnit. :~ohyah!:

BlaK-Argentina
10-08-2009, 10:05 PM
EDIT: Oops, double post.

BroncoBuff
10-08-2009, 10:12 PM
i have spoken, damnit. :~ohyah!:

;)

Williams
10-08-2009, 10:18 PM
As I've often said, the professionals, guys who know a lot more than all of us, have spoken on the issue.

McDaniels? Bowlen?

Ditka? Dungy? Gaffney? Mora? Kiper? Martz? Rivers and half the SD D?

...Urlacher?!!


Frankly the first two are enough for me. I'm not saying everyone here is right in their opinions... but Cutler certainly has his share of critics.

Rock Chalk
10-08-2009, 10:19 PM
Orton has been great, awesome ... no interceptions is a big reason why we're 4-0

But comparing their stats as if Orton was a comparable player to Cutler is a bit silly. As I've often said, the professionals, guys who know a lot more than all of us, have spoken on the issue.

This season, Cutler is not playing nearly as well as he did last season.

IN the first four games last year Cutler's stats:
1275 yards
64% Completion
9 TDs
4 Picks

= Cutler looked better with better players around him.

Wow, big surprise there. And not surprisingly, Orton to date is better in Denver than he was in Chicago. Shocker I know. Orton, like Cutler, is learning a new system with new players around him so is it to anyone's surprise that neither of them are lighting the league up? No.

What may come to fruition is that Orton may put up comparable numbers to Cutler in this system with these players around him. What will you guys say then?

Physical ability does not always equal better QB, and you people would do well to remember that.

strafen
10-08-2009, 10:21 PM
This is our receiving stats...
Marshall our leading receiver with 4 catches per game. WTF?
Eddie Royal 2 catches per game
And you mean to tell me Orton is not killing our receivers production?
At what point do we need to start throwing the ball once other teams catch on to our scheme?
This dink and dunk for 2 yards at a time because our wannabe QB can't throw the deep ball accurate is going to eventually come back and bite us in the ass...


Receiving Statistics
Player....................Rec Yds Yds/Rec Long TD
Brandon Marshall..........16...219...13.7......51.. 2
Jabar Gaffney.............11...154...14.0......49...0
Daniel Graham..............9...112...12.4......24...0
Correll Buckhalter.........8....96...12.0......30...0
Eddie Royal................8....58....7.3......12...0
Brandon Stokley............6...157...26.2......87...1
Tony Scheffler.............6....71...11.8......29...1
Knowshon Moreno............4....33....8.3......11...1
Peyton Hillis..............1.....6....6.0.......6...0

BroncoBuff
10-08-2009, 10:28 PM
I'm not saying everyone here is right in their opinions... but Cutler certainly has his share of critics.
90% of those critics are on this board. And they all loved him before the trade :~ohyah!:

And btw you made up most of that list ... Jabar Gaffney? wtf is that? hmmm...

Best point you Cutler-haters can make is: We couldn't be doing any better with him that we are with Orton ;D


Adam, you should be embarrassed at having quoted four games' stats as proof of anything. We have a much better defense than the Bears ... we're winning with defense, not with offense. Kyle has helped us not with what he's done, but with what he hasn't done.

Why are you guys so invested in pretending Cuter is a bad quarterback? Seems like insecurity to me, I mean that seriously. If you were truly glad to be rid of him, you wouldn't spend so much time and energy trying to convince youselves he sucks.

Rock Chalk
10-08-2009, 10:32 PM
90% of those critics are on this board. And they all loved him before the trade :~ohyah!:

And btw you made up most of that list ... Jabar Gaffney? wtf is that? hmmm...

Best point you Cutler-haters can make is: We couldn't be doing any better with him that we are with Orton ;D


Adam, you should be embarrassed at having quoted four games' stats as proof of anything. We have a much better defense than the Bears ... we're winning with defense, not with offense. Kyle has helped us not with what he's done, but with what he hasn't done.

Why are you guys so invested in pretending Cuter is a bad quarterback? Seems like insecurity to me, I mean that seriously. If you were truly glad to be rid of him, you wouldn't spend so much time and energy trying to convince youselves he sucks.

You ****ing retard learn to read.

I said Cutler is proof positive that the QB is more than just his physical abilities its the TEAM around him. At this point last year, Cutler with the players he had here had better stats than he does in Chicago because of the TEAM around him.

Conversely, Orton with those same players Cutler enjoyed last year is enjoying better stats 4 games in than he did in Chicago (though, in Orton's defense, he played some tough initial competition last year in Indy, Tampa, Carolina and Philly to start the season, all had good or great defenses).

Cutler is not a bad QB but he isnt great either. IN fact, he is about an average QB and the players HERE made him look better than he is.

Rock Chalk
10-08-2009, 10:37 PM
This is our receiving stats...
Marshall our leading receiver with 4 catches per game. WTF?
Eddie Royal 2 catches per game
And you mean to tell me Orton is not killing our receivers production?
At what point do we need to start throwing the ball once other teams catch on to our scheme?
This dink and dunk for 2 yards at a time because our wannabe QB can't throw the deep ball accurate is going to eventually come back and bite us in the ass...


Receiving Statistics
Player....................Rec Yds Yds/Rec Long TD
Brandon Marshall..........16...219...13.7......51.. 2
Jabar Gaffney.............11...154...14.0......49...0
Daniel Graham..............9...112...12.4......24...0
Correll Buckhalter.........8....96...12.0......30...0
Eddie Royal................8....58....7.3......12...0
Brandon Stokley............6...157...26.2......87...1
Tony Scheffler.............6....71...11.8......29...1
Knowshon Moreno............4....33....8.3......11...1
Peyton Hillis..............1.....6....6.0.......6...0



Oh my god this is retarded.

Cutler threw the ball 157 times through the first four games last year and his completion percentage was 64%. Of course there are going to be higher catches per game for Royal and Marshall, all we did was pass last year.

Jesus its like you people fell out of the retard tree and hit every branch on the way down.

Williams
10-08-2009, 10:42 PM
And btw you made up most of that list ... Jabar Gaffney? wtf is that? hmmm...
.

I made nothing up... just have a solid memory. http://sports.popcrunch.com/gaffney-says-mcdaniels-is-just-like-belichick/

Receiver Jabar Gaffney has played under Josh McDaniels and Bill Belichick in New England. When Josh McDaniels became the head coach of the Broncos he brought Gaffney with him to Denver. When asked for his thoughts on the Jay Cutler situation, Gaffney said McDaniels is handling the situation just like Belichick would.


“Just how he handles business, the way he goes about treating everybody the same. Not showing favoritism to any one player who is supposed to be I guess a ’star,’” Gaffney said. “They don’t care. They want a team. A team to go out there and win. Because the individuals won’t win.”

...surely you can figure out who he's talking about.


Best point you Cutler-haters can make is: We couldn't be doing any better with him that we are with Orton ;D


My best argument is... the trade wasnt Cutler for Orton as so many make it out to be. Even in the case of a hypothetical non-p*ssy version of Cutler... I'd still take Orton, Ayers, Quinn, and a #1 over emo boy... 10 times out of 10. I think it would be extremely foolish not to. I'm very pleased with the trade thus far, and am glad to see Orton on par with Cutler numbers wise.

skpac1001
10-08-2009, 10:45 PM
Why are you guys so invested in pretending Cuter is a bad quarterback? Seems like insecurity to me, I mean that seriously. If you were truly glad to be rid of him, you wouldn't spend so much time and energy trying to convince youselves he sucks.

I suppose it depends on your perspective. I get annoyed coming on finding posts talking about how much better off we would be with Cutler, despite the fact that we are 4-0 and would be a significantly different team if we never made the Cutler trade, both by personnel and by personality and chemistry. Then some of these people support the case with Orton's first 4 games, but think bringing up Cutler's struggles in his first four games is misleading.

hambone13
10-08-2009, 10:45 PM
90% of those critics are on this board. And they all loved him before the trade :~ohyah!:

And btw you made up most of that list ... Jabar Gaffney? wtf is that? hmmm...

Best point you Cutler-haters can make is: We couldn't be doing any better with him that we are with Orton ;D


Adam, you should be embarrassed at having quoted four games' stats as proof of anything. We have a much better defense than the Bears ... we're winning with defense, not with offense. Kyle has helped us not with what he's done, but with what he hasn't done.

Why are you guys so invested in pretending Cuter is a bad quarterback? Seems like insecurity to me, I mean that seriously. If you were truly glad to be rid of him, you wouldn't spend so much time and energy trying to convince youselves he sucks.

I'm gonna be on the wagon of hate about the transactions by both parties leading up to, during and after the "Cutler Saga" which ultimately lead to him not being forced to play according to his contract.

I 100% believe that this is a better team w/ JC but that doesn't change the fact that I'm impressed with the "New Broncos" and Coach (I don't wanna mention his name....he might think I'm not on board....). It's a nice surprise that the Broncos are going to be interesting to watch. I don't mind watching us on a bad season but PLEASE don't BORE ME!!!

This "winning beginning" is a spectacular thing to be part of. I'm definitely a JM skeptic from the start but I'm digg'n the introduction! It's been exciting.

Thanks for makin' it interesting McD...now let's see if you can make it conclusive. I certainly hope so.

Williams
10-08-2009, 10:52 PM
But they are linked for a different reason after the first four games of the season. Their statistics are very similar. Orton is the No. 14-ranked quarterback in the NFL. Cutler is the 15th-ranked quarterback.


This, of course, begs the question;

"Is Orton a franchise quarterback?"... or could it be possible...*gulp*... "Cutler may not be 'franchise' after all?!"

strafen
10-08-2009, 11:23 PM
Oh my god this is retarded.

Cutler threw the ball 157 times through the first four games last year and his completion percentage was 64%. Of course there are going to be higher catches per game for Royal and Marshall, all we did was pass last year.

Jesus its like you people fell out of the retard tree and hit every branch on the way down.Before you call somebody a retard, take a look at yourself freakin' moron...
I'm not comparing Orton to Cutler. I'm just pointing out the decline in production from our receiveing corps in just 4 games
Pathetic numbers for the quality of receivers we have, and got nothing to do with what Cutler is doing, it's how badly we suck at QB that's negating good or decent production for the kind of receivers we've got. That's unacceptable

If you can't see that, or admit that, remove your Orton jocks off your face...

Take at look at it again, if you want me to dumb it down for you to understand it, let me know...

hambone13
10-08-2009, 11:30 PM
Before you call somebody a retard, take a look at yourself freakin' moron...
I'm not comparing Orton to Cutler. I'm just pointing out the decline in production from our receiveing corps in just 4 games
Pathetic numbers for the quality of receivers we have, and got nothing to do with what Cutler is doing, it's how badly we suck at QB that's negating good or decent production for the kind of receivers we've got. That's unacceptable

If you can't see that, or admit that, remove your Orton jocks off your face...

Take at look at it again, if you want me to dumb it down for you to understand it, let me know...

You obviously have no idea who you're dealing with...

strafen
10-08-2009, 11:33 PM
You obviously have no idea who you're dealing with...
And what's that supposed to mean?

Does it mean I'm supposed to take verbal abuse from anyone here?
Come on?
I posted some information based on facts, and I get called a retard?
Give me a freakin' break!
If somebody wants to make an intelligent reply, I'm all for it, but I don't care who you are, you start calling people names, you get the same in return.
You treat people with respect, you get respect back

HAT
10-08-2009, 11:38 PM
It's a nice surprise that the Broncos are going to be interesting to watch. .

This is a surprise to you? :notsofast:

ScottXray
10-08-2009, 11:40 PM
Not mentioned in most of the stats is the fact that HWSNBN has Fumbled FIVE times. I haven't seen how many he lost but I'd assume at least 2-3.

Combine that with his 4 or five INTs and he has turned the ball over at least 7 times for his 8 TDs.

While he has been playing better than his first game, it appears that Lovie has reined him in some the last few games. Meaning that the coaches in Chicago are forcing him to play more like Kyle Orton, and not take so many chances.


Kind of Ironic isn't it?


There is a lot of season to go for both teams.....and both offenses should get better as the season progresses.

It is too small of a sample to say what is going to happen so far but it looks like both teams are going to be about even inn record this year. Of course we did get two firsts, along with Orton, so if it stays this way long term , Denver got the better end of the deal.

Pretty premature there too. But its looking good so far.

hambone13
10-08-2009, 11:50 PM
And what's that supposed to mean?

Does it mean I'm supposed to take verbal abuse from anyone here?
Come on?
I posted some information based on facts, and I get called a retard?
Give me a freakin' break!
If somebody wants to make an intelligent reply, I'm all for it, but I don't care who you are, you start calling people names, you get the same in return.
You treat people with respect, you get respect back

I'm just say'n, I hope you don't have a heart condition because you're arguing with someone who thrives on your emotional response.

Odysseus
10-09-2009, 02:12 AM
Giants got a ring = Giants win in deal. Eli Manning put that team on his shoulders in that last drive and willed them to win. No matter how good Rivers and Kaeding are (Merriman sucks without Roids), they dont have a ring and Rivers damn sure didn't will his team to a SUperbowl victory.

If Orton wins the Superbowl he's better than either Manning because both of them are sitting at home. It's a team sport and no individual alone can be the complete difference maker.

Odysseus
10-09-2009, 02:25 AM
You ****ing retard learn to read.

I said Cutler is proof positive that the QB is more than just his physical abilities its the TEAM around him. At this point last year, Cutler with the players he had here had better stats than he does in Chicago because of the TEAM around him.

Conversely, Orton with those same players Cutler enjoyed last year is enjoying better stats 4 games in than he did in Chicago (though, in Orton's defense, he played some tough initial competition last year in Indy, Tampa, Carolina and Philly to start the season, all had good or great defenses).

Cutler is not a bad QB but he isnt great either. IN fact, he is about an average QB and the players HERE made him look better than he is.

Orton's hand was not hurt last year. I expect Orton to improve even as defenses are adjusting to him.

Orton has three things that Griese, Plummer and Cutler never had.

Defense that matters
Special Teams that is consistent
A running attack when you need it


I think Shanahan being really uncovered a lot of faults in Broncos football but for the people thinking this 4-0 team is indestructible I assure you that the coach is still a rookie coach and the team still has some real challenges to face.

I like that the players are responsive to this coach. I wish that fans were more responsive to facts. I have never been around so many Manginas in my entire life.

Drek
10-09-2009, 03:43 AM
90% of those critics are on this board. And they all loved him before the trade :~ohyah!:


Really Buff? I mean really?

I posted on this forum before Shanahan was even fired that Cutler was at best a top 15 QB, no way a top 10, and that I'd take Matt Ryan before him and maybe even Joe Flacco.

Since then that list now definitely includes Flacco with Mark Sanchez and Matt Stafford settling into the 'maybe' category quite nicely.

I know he throws a pretty pass but he's just not that good. He doesn't win late in the season and he's 50/50 to **** the bed or look like a stud every week other than that. Its a coin toss. He's got so many huge flaws that the fact someone gave us a solid system QB, two firsts, and a third for him is just mind blowing. But hey, it was the same team that kept trying to shoehorn Rex Grossman in over Orton because Grossman looked good in practice, while all Orton did was win games.

I've been an Orton fan for a while, when they first benched Orton after his rookie season to put Grossman back into the starting job (and slotted Griese in at the #2 spot without any competition) I was really hoping we'd send a late rounder and bring Orton here. Now we got him, and people can keep underestimating what he's capable of if they want, but it'll just make them look stupid down the road.

As indefensible as his come from behind wins and increased efficiency since then...give it up...he's a better QB. I'll take his immature self centeredness over Orton any day of the week with our defense and Chicago's receivers and O-Line. Imagine what he would look like with all three....don't forget his winning percentage when the opposing team is held to 10 points or less.

So much stupid in one post. You do realize that until running up the score on Detroit (very little of which required much effort on Cutler's part) we had outscored them over the first three weeks right? And we're 4-0 with decisive wins in three of our four games whereas they're 3-1 and barely scraped by in two of their wins.

And what QB doesn't win nearly every game when the team scores 10 points or less? Thats just about the lowest bar for a QB to get over that exists.

We'll see in a few weeks when Chicago finally has to start playing somebody how good Cutler looks then, and not too long after that we'll get to see if he manages another late season collapse. I'm expecting it, but then I stopped drinking the kool-aid on the guy a while ago so it doesn't really surprise me when it happens now.

dextermilo
10-09-2009, 04:05 AM
I could just never get over the after taste of that Cutler-aid.

On a lighter note, I just moved to Seattle a month or so ago and the SeaPigeon love gets a little old it being so sad and pathetic. Thank goodness I grew up in Colorado. I hope Orton makes a time of it and plays well, I actually like his style of football.

errand
10-09-2009, 06:02 AM
....don't forget his winning percentage when the opposing team is held to 10 points or less.

...and what is Orton's winning pct when his defense holds opposing teams to 10 or less points?

Regardless we do know that Orton's winning pct as an NFL starter is almost 20 points HIGHER than Jay's regardless of what the defense holds opponents to.

errand
10-09-2009, 06:11 AM
This is our receiving stats...
Marshall our leading receiver with 4 catches per game. WTF?
Eddie Royal 2 catches per game
And you mean to tell me Orton is not killing our receivers production?
At what point do we need to start throwing the ball once other teams catch on to our scheme?
This dink and dunk for 2 yards at a time because our wannabe QB can't throw the deep ball accurate is going to eventually come back and bite us in the ass...


Receiving Statistics
Player....................Rec Yds Yds/Rec Long TD
Brandon Marshall..........16...219...13.7......51.. 2
Jabar Gaffney.............11...154...14.0......49...0
Daniel Graham..............9...112...12.4......24...0
Correll Buckhalter.........8....96...12.0......30...0
Eddie Royal................8....58....7.3......12...0
Brandon Stokley............6...157...26.2......87...1
Tony Scheffler.............6....71...11.8......29...1
Knowshon Moreno............4....33....8.3......11...1
Peyton Hillis..............1.....6....6.0.......6...0



Orton is doing a better job of spreading the ball around. We've got 4 players within 3 receptions of each other...and look at their averages per catch.

HEAV
10-09-2009, 07:23 AM
This dink and dunk for 2 yards at a time because our wannabe QB can't throw the deep ball accurate is going to eventually come back and bite us in the ass...

First off you should watch the games and look at passes thrown. Orton isn't dinking and dunking the ball (ala Griese) he has made more than a few long throws and completed them for gains (yes minus the Natti miracle).

Second if you would have studied the Patriots attack, you may have learned that the Pats offense isn't based on throwing the ball deep every other snap. It's more about speading the defense out and taking the under and corners. Attacking the deep when available, but the main point is moving the chains, running with effectiveness and limiting the turnovers.

Sorry if you favorite gun slinger isn't around to over throw the deep ball.

If's that the kinda football you like I suggest you should become a Raiders fan.



P.S.

If you subtract the 87 yard Natti-Miracle play from Orton's stats...wait for it...he and Jay have the same average yards per pass attempt!

But just keep holding on the you hater escape clause and wait for teh first loss to blame Orton,McDaniels and Bowlen.

HEAV
10-09-2009, 07:30 AM
This, of course, begs the question;

"Is Orton a franchise quarterback?"... or could it be possible...*gulp*... "Cutler may not be 'franchise' after all?!"

Wanna know what makes a "Franchise" quarterback?

WINS

Big stats with little wins makes you Jeff George.

errand
10-09-2009, 08:51 AM
Wanna know what makes a "Franchise" quarterback?

WINS

Big stats with little wins makes you Jeff George.

Exactly....

Ben Roethlisberger threw 17 TD's and 15 INT's last season...and won a SB.

Jay Cutler threw for 4500 yards and 25 Td's....and blew a 3 game lead with 3 games to play and has a career 46% winning pct.

Who is the real franchise QB?

BroncoBuff
10-09-2009, 09:01 AM
Your fellatio of Cutler in this thread is quite amazing.

You caring so much is far more amazing.

I'm a Jay fan ... always will be. Suck on that.

TheReverend
10-09-2009, 09:07 AM
This got funny fast.

Drek
10-09-2009, 09:17 AM
You caring so much is far more amazing.

I'm a Jay fan ... always will be. Suck on that.

Thats good for you Buff, but this is a Broncos board and you don't need to play revisionist history acting like Jay Cutler was god among men right up until our coach traded him, then accuse others of being bitter about his departure.

More than a few of us on here saw the chinks in his armor well before then and don't really miss him. But we also don't feel like watching a game managing QB who has gotten better week to week in a complex offense (one that took a three year veteran of the system 8 starts to fully get comfortable in) ran down because he doesn't throw a 60 mph bullet into double coverage.

I honestly wish Jay Cutler the best after this season. I'd like to see a 6-10 to 8-8 record this year so we get a 8-15 draft pick, but I'm actually hoping that should that happen they bring in Shanahan to be the HC in Chicago and go on to great success.

But just because we don't have Jay Cutler doesn't mean the 26 year old currently on our roster can't break out and become a franchise QB himself. He doesn't have the same strengths, but he has plenty of his own strengths. Given a chance he could become a very productive QB for us, not just the stop gap many people on here keep trying to sell him as. Many of those same people said this defense couldn't make it out of the bottom half of the league this year. Seems like they're doing a pretty good job of that so far.

BroncoBuff
10-09-2009, 09:31 AM
Really Buff? I mean really?

I posted on this forum before Shanahan was even fired that Cutler was at best a top 15 QB, no way a top 10, and that I'd take Matt Ryan before him and maybe even Joe Flacco.

Since then that list now definitely includes Flacco with Mark Sanchez and Matt Stafford settling into the 'maybe' category quite nicely.

I know he throws a pretty pass but he's just not that good. He doesn't win late in the season and he's 50/50 to **** the bed or look like a stud every week other than that. Its a coin toss. He's got so many huge flaws that the fact someone gave us a solid system QB, two firsts, and a third for him is just mind blowing. But hey, it was the same team that kept trying to shoehorn Rex Grossman in over Orton because Grossman looked good in practice, while all Orton did was win games.

I've been an Orton fan for a while, when they first benched Orton after his rookie season to put Grossman back into the starting job (and slotted Griese in at the #2 spot without any competition) I was really hoping we'd send a late rounder and bring Orton here. Now we got him, and people can keep underestimating what he's capable of if they want, but it'll just make them look stupid down the road.

Actually I agree with most all this, although you're higher on Orton than I am. And I'd put Jay #9 or 10, just ahead of Flacco (who, like Jay, kinda wilted down the stretch last season), and Stafford not in the conversation just yet.

Yes, I do recall you were somewhat skeptical of Jay last season, I just don't see why you're not at least that skeptical of Orton. I freaking love Orton now, but like I mentioned before, I love him more for what he's not doing ... that is, turning the ball over.

Crushaholic
10-09-2009, 09:34 AM
Fantasy football has seriously driven people away from the team concept. Spreading the ball around gives defensive coordinators fits, because they don't really know who to cover. I haven't been this excited about Broncos football for a long time. The last few years have seen "Cutler to Marshall" WAY too many times...

strafen
10-09-2009, 09:37 AM
First off you should watch the games and look at passes thrown. Orton isn't dinking and dunking the ball (ala Griese) he has made more than a few long throws and completed them for gains (yes minus the Natti miracle).

Second if you would have studied the Patriots attack, you may have learned that the Pats offense isn't based on throwing the ball deep every other snap. It's more about speading the defense out and taking the under and corners. Attacking the deep when available, but the main point is moving the chains, running with effectiveness and limiting the turnovers.

Sorry if you favorite gun slinger isn't around to over throw the deep ball.

If's that the kinda football you like I suggest you should become a Raiders fan.



P.S.

If you subtract the 87 yard Natti-Miracle play from Orton's stats...wait for it...he and Jay have the same average yards per pass attempt!

But just keep holding on the you hater escape clause and wait for teh first loss to blame Orton,McDaniels and Bowlen.Why is it that those who recognize how mediocre of a QB Orton is, immediately gets called a Cutler fan...
It's getting old. Orton has been lucky twice this season. Has done nothing so far to win a game, he's been totally irrelevant, and that's why we're winning games, because he's done nothing
It's the defense and WR's bailing him out so far
Orton? What a joke! ROFL!

BroncoBuff
10-09-2009, 09:42 AM
Thats good for you Buff, but this is a Broncos board and you don't need to play revisionist history acting like Jay Cutler was god among men right up until our coach traded him, then accuse others of being bitter about his departure.

Okay we crossed posts, but couple things there. One, I saw immaturity in Jay, I wasn't completely blinded by manlove ::)

But now though, the obsessive-hatred some here have for Jay (just look at the Chi-GB game thread if you don't believe me, that thing was a textbook spectacle of jilted hate ... hell hath no fury like a fanboy scorned), I think THAT'S the weird part. After all, the guy is basically irrelevant to us now.

The Joker
10-09-2009, 09:48 AM
Don't understand how people actually like Cutler and want him to do well? hmmm...

The guy is complete dickhead, and one who couldn't get out of Denver fast enough at that.

Being upset because we downgraded at the QB position, and wanting Jay back as a result... that I can completely understand. He's a talented guy. He has faults, sure, but his upside is pretty hard to deny.

But he's gone. He's not coming back, and if I'm gonna root for someone who plays for another team, it won't be the sandy vagina'd little girl who moaned and whinged his way off the team I love.

Popps
10-09-2009, 09:51 AM
Fantasy football has seriously driven people away from the team concept. Spreading the ball around gives defensive coordinators fits, because they don't really know who to cover. I haven't been this excited about Broncos football for a long time. The last few years have seen "Cutler to Marshall" WAY too many times...

Yep.

Think about the SB teams. Think about all of the weapons, and even the role players who got carries/catches. Given, it helps when you're loaded with talent, but I agree... it's harder to stop a balanced, multi-faceted offense.

BroncoBuff
10-09-2009, 09:53 AM
Why is it that those who recognize how mediocre of a QB Orton is, immediately gets called a Cutler fan...
That's so true, and again, the reason why is this odd, obsessive hatred against Jay. To many guys here, being a Jay fan is the highest form of treason ???

BroncoBuff
10-09-2009, 09:56 AM
Don't understand how people actually like Cutler and want him to do well? hmmm...

The guy is complete dickhead, and one who couldn't get out of Denver fast enough at that.

He Jay definitely was a dickhead. Brandon was even more of a dickhead. I wish (actually wishED, past tense), we could have handled Jay the way we did Brandon.

That said, Orton and Ayers and Alphonso are making it very very easy to forget about Jay .... Jay ... sorry, Jay who?

sonsofkraftybob
10-09-2009, 10:27 AM
If you look at this thread long enough you can almost actually convince yourself that Orton is as good as Culter...almost.

Hulamau
10-09-2009, 10:39 AM
I'd like to see the Comp % for Orton higher. But still I'm happy with his play thus far.

That will come with more time in the system and all the new WR for him and vice versa, the WR learning this system and Orton's tendencies as well. A long work in progress which is great news. Things will only improve over time, even when we do have a few set backs.

And don't know what Cutlers completion rate would have been with an open dislocation a 5 weeks ago and wearing a plastic splint and glove on his throwing finger??? Doubt it would be 64%.

But also, a lot of those in-completes from Orton are deliberate throw-aways either from miscommunication with the still new system and WRs, or tight coverage and trying to be smart with the ball.

Hulamau
10-09-2009, 10:47 AM
Yep.

Think about the SB teams. Think about all of the weapons, and even the role players who got carries/catches. Given, it helps when you're loaded with talent, but I agree... it's harder to stop a balanced, multi-faceted offense.

And Stokely should be at full strength this week after playing mostly decoy duty last week with that thigh bruise.
Wish we had Bucky back already but I have a feeling Knowshon is going to start hitting his rhythm one of these games soon. Would be handy if its this week :-)

Keys to winning this game.
1. Get a lead early
2. Establish a solid run game with time consuming PRODUCTIVE drives and no more shooting ourselves in the foot with bonehead penalites.
3. Stop their run early and Force Brady to have to pass ...
4. Let loose Dooom, Ayers and Holiday to jump all over Tom Terrifics azzzz, early and often :-)

bpc
10-09-2009, 10:50 AM
Cutler is easily the better QB but I'll give Orton his due, he's a great game manager.

The way they are used by their sides are completely different. Orton is expected to throw a lot 0-10 yds, and it's usually after McDaniels has kept the defense off pace with the running game. Cutler's game directly affects everybody other play call by the Bears. As he goes, so does their team. Amazing that he's managed to wrestle that away from Forte in week 1.

Cutler can make the throws, I'm not quite sure Orton can 15-40 yds.

Cutler has also had a much more difficult schedule vs. ours. GB at the road, Pittsburgh at home, and Seattle at their house are vastly different than Cincy, Cleveland, and Oakland over the first three.

Outside of one poor half of football, Jay has led his team to 2 comeback win's, another (GB) where he gave the team two different chances to win and a great performance against Detroit where he just flat out got it done.

Both have done well for their respective sides. Ultimately who is better will be decided by championships and playoff wins. It's hard to debate that right now, 1/4 through the season.

I hope we keep winning but I'm happy that Jay is looking so good in Chicago. He's gonna be a great QB in this league.

The Joker
10-09-2009, 10:59 AM
He Jay definitely was a dickhead. Brandon was even more of a dickhead. I wish (actually wishED, past tense), we could have handled Jay the way we did Brandon.

That said, Orton and Ayers and Alphonso are making it very very easy to forget about Jay .... Jay ... sorry, Jay who?

I don't think handling Jay the same way we did Brandon was really an option.

With Brandon we basically told him we wouldn't trade him, treated him like any other player on the team and said "If he buys in, great. If not, we'll make do with what we've got."

You can do that with a WR, because even if he doesn't buy in then you've got 3 or 4 other receivers who you can plug in there and keep the offense going. Sure, you want Marshall to get on board because he's better than the other receivers we've got. But if he doesn't, then you can cope. Marshall seems to have bought in, and that's great. But even if he hadn't, we'd still be doing fine.

With a QB, it's not the same thing. He's THE guy, the only QB you have on the field, the man who runs the entire offense. You can't just wait and hope he buys in, because if he doesn't then you're pretty much ****ed.

I just don't think the wait and see approach would have mde any sense with Cutler. Once it became apparent that it would take months of vaginal massaging to even have a chance of fixing the problem, we had to let Cutler walk.

rastaman
10-09-2009, 11:02 AM
I agree, even given the 3 more TDs Cutler has thrown, 5 ints and this team would be in trouble.

Couldn't disagree with ya more! Lets say Cutler was Denver's QB on opening day and he threw the 4 interceptions as he did as the Bears Qb on opening day vs Greenbay. The Bronco Defense was playing well enough in week one to have absorbed those interception.

Whats not taken into consideration is Cutler and his Bears receivers were not on the same page against GB and at least 3 of his interceptions were the fault of his WR not completing their routs.

Now had Cutler not been traded and was the Bronco Qb, whose to say Jay would have thorwn those interception b/c of the relationship with the Bronco WR's of having played together for 3.5 years!

Cutler and Orton have put up similar stats thus far. However, both QB's are playing under stark differences. Whereas, Orton has the better Defense and running attack, and better WR's.

Cutler on the other hand is playing with a Bears defense that a little generous with giving up points to oppossing teams, his WR's are not on the same par with the Broncos WR's, his OL is not great but salvageable; and the Bears running attack has been non-existent until this past week when Forte finally broke out.

So I'd say that Culter has both lost and won more Bear games thus far with his arm and leadership. In other words the Bears believe they are never out of games b/c of Cutlers presents and comeback ability. And at this stage, Denver believes they are always in games so long as the Defense keeps them in games. Cutler can bring his team back from 17 point deficits in the 4th qtrs, whereas, the jury is still out whether Orton has this same ability.

Florida_Bronco
10-09-2009, 11:04 AM
I'm a Jay fan ... always will be.

If you're willing to stay a fan of a guy who is a traitor to our team...well...more power to you I guess.

strafen
10-09-2009, 11:05 AM
Orton is doing a better job of spreading the ball around. We've got 4 players within 3 receptions of each other...and look at their averages per catch.

Lol! Dang, there's always more than one way to skin a cat, huh?! ;)

That's one way to look at it, but my point was, our receivers production reflects our offense output.
You can preach 4-0 all you want, but there's a problem with the offense that winning has covered under the rug for now...

Call it hate, or whatever, but I'm seeing that Royal so far in 4 games this season has 8 catches for 58 yards.
Our leading receiver is Marshall with 4 catches per game average!

Don't you see there's something wrong there?
It's Orton's inability to be efficient, and because of that, you have to give McDaniels credit for devising game plans to put Orton in the best situation to succeed, or rather in the best position to not lose the game for us...
Now, how long are we going to be riding this plan before we get shut down?

Believe me, had we been 1-3 or 2-2 this season, this is what we would be talking about. We're not because we're 4-0 with a couple lucky breaks, and the fortune to have played Cleveland and the Raiders

Am I a negative person?
That's one way to look at it, but that's far from how I see things. I'm happy to be 4-0, don't get me wrong, but...

Look at the numbers again...
For some of our receivers, those would be the numbers for just one game in any other season with just about any other QB, not for 4 games into the season. Heck, most receivers in the league right now have better numbers than that in less games played...

Receiving Statistics
Player....................Rec Yds Yds/Rec Long TD
Brandon Marshall..........16...219...13.7......51.. 2
Jabar Gaffney.............11...154...14.0......49...0
Daniel Graham..............9...112...12.4......24...0
Correll Buckhalter.........8....96...12.0......30...0
Eddie Royal................8....58....7.3......12...0
Brandon Stokley............6...157...26.2......87...1
Tony Scheffler.............6....71...11.8......29...1
Knowshon Moreno............4....33....8.3......11...1
Peyton Hillis..............1.....6....6.0.......6...0

rastaman
10-09-2009, 11:11 AM
If you're willing to stay a fan of a guy who is a traitor to our team...well...more power to you I guess.

So you mean to tell me the human brain is incapable of rooting for your team and a player of another team? You probably have trouble walking and chewing gum at the same time.

Why do people like you and your ilk have such an unhealthy monolithic fanatical fan worship of your respective teams......it ain't healthy --- you only live once.:peace:

rastaman
10-09-2009, 11:21 AM
Lol! Dang, there's always more than one way to skin a cat, huh?! ;)



Look at the numbers again...
For some of our receivers, those were the numbers for just one game, not for 4 games into the season. Heck, most receivers in the league right now have better numbers than that in less games played...

Receiving Statistics
Player....................Rec Yds Yds/Rec Long TD
Brandon Marshall..........16...219...13.7......51.. 2
Jabar Gaffney.............11...154...14.0......49...0
Daniel Graham..............9...112...12.4......24...0
Correll Buckhalter.........8....96...12.0......30...0
Eddie Royal................8....58....7.3......12...0
Brandon Stokley............6...157...26.2......87...1
Tony Scheffler.............6....71...11.8......29...1
Knowshon Moreno............4....33....8.3......11...1
Peyton Hillis..............1.....6....6.0.......6...0



Brandon Marshall is on pace for quite a drop in his stats in 09.

Recep Yards TD
64 832 8

loborugger
10-09-2009, 11:56 AM
I think this is really an interesting point to look at. Certainly Orton has thrown some off-target balls, but some of this can be attributed to the fact that Orton tends to throw it away rather than into coverage, and Cutler vice versa.

Cutler is more accurate than Orton, this we know. But all other things being equal, a gunslinger will probably have more INTs and a higher completion % than a caretaker.

Point well made. However, I agree with Heav. Definitely would like to see him get above 60 percent.

Drek
10-09-2009, 12:07 PM
Actually I agree with most all this, although you're higher on Orton than I am. And I'd put Jay #9 or 10, just ahead of Flacco (who, like Jay, kinda wilted down the stretch last season), and Stafford not in the conversation just yet.

Yes, I do recall you were somewhat skeptical of Jay last season, I just don't see why you're not at least that skeptical of Orton. I freaking love Orton now, but like I mentioned before, I love him more for what he's not doing ... that is, turning the ball over.

I'm VERY skeptical of Orton, don't think that I'm not. But he deserves the benefit of the doubt so far.

It hasn't stopped me from watching my boy Jimmy Clausen and thinking about just how easy his transition to McDaniels' system would be, or just how dynamic Jake Locker could be for us and all the crazy things McDaniels could scheme up for him, or what a steal Tebow would be in the mid to late 2nd in next year's draft. But at the same time I'm not going to act like Orton is a one year stop gap and can never be nothing more.

That is how San Diego treated Brees and when they drafted Rivers he tore off a monster season, walked, and is now one of the top three or four QBs in all the NFL.

Orton has the benefit of the doubt from me. I expect him to be a generally mistake free QB, get better in the system from week to week, and most importantly (and this is what I knock Jay on all the time) he needs to finish strong down the stretch. You need to play your best football in November and December if you want to be a franchise QB, not in September and October.

Okay we crossed posts, but couple things there. One, I saw immaturity in Jay, I wasn't completely blinded by manlove ::)

But now though, the obsessive-hatred some here have for Jay (just look at the Chi-GB game thread if you don't believe me, that thing was a textbook spectacle of jilted hate ... hell hath no fury like a fanboy scorned), I think THAT'S the weird part. After all, the guy is basically irrelevant to us now.
Of course people around here hate Cutler. He effectively said he wanted nothing to do with the Broncos or Denver in general, which obviously left some people sour, and to top it off our 1st round pick next year is directly tied to his success in Chicago (or lack thereof).

He's far from irrelevant to us because a 10-15 pick is a whole lot more valuable than a 20-25 pick, and it isn't fanboy fury that gets people riled up, its a natural love of the Broncos that Cutler effectively took a piss on.

Or for those who actually watched the entire situation this off-season how he and Bus Cook manipulated that love of the Broncos to get a fan base divided and force Bowlen's hand. They tried to wreck a franchise because Cutler didn't like the idea of playing for someone who wouldn't coddle him, and if McDaniels didn't turn out to be the smartest guy in the room they really could have. Imagine if we had a different rookie HC who went 1-3 so far and only won against the Browns after trading Cutler. The entire franchise would suffer from that, not on the field where everyone is replaceable, but in the hearts and minds of fans. That level of immaturity and manipulation I have no patience for, and as a result I look forward to the day that Bus Cook doesn't have a single premier client in the league left. I'm sick of his dog and pony shows.

TheReverend
10-09-2009, 12:16 PM
Let's not lose sight that at a 58.8% YAC #, Orton's being made by his receivers, and not vice versa. That's also almost 2% higher than Matt Cassel's league leading, and GM scaring, 57% last season.

Drek
10-09-2009, 12:23 PM
Let's not lose sight that at a 58.8% YAC #, Orton's being made by his receivers, and not vice versa. That's also almost 2% higher than Matt Cassel's league leading, and GM scaring, 57% last season.

Totally agree. A fair bit of Orton's 97.7 QB rating is paper production, not game production.

But has he gotten better week to week? Yes.

Has he had a bad game yet? No.

He's still learning on the job and so far he's doing it without costing the Broncos on the field. He probably won't ever be a top 5 QB in the league (but I wouldn't say its impossible) but he's looking a lot better than the career backup place holder some still try to label him and getting better.

TheReverend
10-09-2009, 12:35 PM
Totally agree. A fair bit of Orton's 97.7 QB rating is paper production, not game production.

But has he gotten better week to week? Yes.

Has he had a bad game yet? No.

He's still learning on the job and so far he's doing it without costing the Broncos on the field. He probably won't ever be a top 5 QB in the league (but I wouldn't say its impossible) but he's looking a lot better than the career backup place holder some still try to label him and getting better.

Time will tell. I was far from thrilled or encouraged by his performance against the Cowboys. I was a lot more impressed with his game against Oakland. Regardless, lucky > good

strafen
10-09-2009, 01:00 PM
I don't buy the "Orton will get better" stuff
The guy has little athletic abilities. This guy looks like a Wall Street yuppie in a football uniform
He may get better at understanding the system, but don't count in him to get better at avoiding sacks, and throwing the deep ball when time is running down and we desperatly need a 1st down or a score...

baja
10-09-2009, 01:02 PM
I'm VERY skeptical of Orton, don't think that I'm not. But he deserves the benefit of the doubt so far.

It hasn't stopped me from watching my boy Jimmy Clausen and thinking about just how easy his transition to McDaniels' system would be, or just how dynamic Jake Locker could be for us and all the crazy things McDaniels could scheme up for him, or what a steal Tebow would be in the mid to late 2nd in next year's draft. But at the same time I'm not going to act like Orton is a one year stop gap and can never be nothing more.

That is how San Diego treated Brees and when they drafted Rivers he tore off a monster season, walked, and is now one of the top three or four QBs in all the NFL.

Orton has the benefit of the doubt from me. I expect him to be a generally mistake free QB, get better in the system from week to week, and most importantly (and this is what I knock Jay on all the time) he needs to finish strong down the stretch. You need to play your best football in November and December if you want to be a franchise QB, not in September and October.


Of course people around here hate Cutler. He effectively said he wanted nothing to do with the Broncos or Denver in general, which obviously left some people sour, and to top it off our 1st round pick next year is directly tied to his success in Chicago (or lack thereof).

He's far from irrelevant to us because a 10-15 pick is a whole lot more valuable than a 20-25 pick, and it isn't fanboy fury that gets people riled up, its a natural love of the Broncos that Cutler effectively took a piss on.

Or for those who actually watched the entire situation this off-season how he and Bus Cook manipulated that love of the Broncos to get a fan base divided and force Bowlen's hand. They tried to wreck a franchise because Cutler didn't like the idea of playing for someone who wouldn't coddle him, and if McDaniels didn't turn out to be the smartest guy in the room they really could have. Imagine if we had a different rookie HC who went 1-3 so far and only won against the Browns after trading Cutler. The entire franchise would suffer from that, not on the field where everyone is replaceable, but in the hearts and minds of fans. That level of immaturity and manipulation I have no patience for, and as a result <b>I look forward to the day that Bus Cook doesn't have a single premier client in the league left. I'm sick of his dog and pony shows.

Well reasoned post Derk


On the bolded part, what does that say about Cutler's character to have gone along with a plan like that.

Peoples Champ
10-09-2009, 01:05 PM
4 of those 5 INT were in week 1. He's only thrown 1 since then.

And none of the INTs Cutler threw this year were for the Broncos, it was a hypathetical statement.

Florida_Bronco
10-09-2009, 01:20 PM
So you mean to tell me the human brain is incapable of rooting for your team and a player of another team? You probably have trouble walking and chewing gum at the same time. What the **** are you talking about? I never said anything like that. I've rooted for plenty of players (Atwater, Crockett...etc) who left the Broncos and went on to other teams. The difference is they went with class and professionalism, neither of which even remotely describe Jay Cutler, who is a traitor to this team.

Why do people like you and your ilk have such an unhealthy monolithic fanatical fan worship of your respective teams......it ain't healthy --- you only live once.:peace: If you call putting the team over a player then I guess I'm guilty as charged.

Drek
10-09-2009, 01:42 PM
Well reasoned post Derk


On the bolded part, what does that say about Cutler's character to have gone along with a plan like that.

Same thing it says about Brett Favre.

That at some point he became fully aware that there is no 'I' in 'Team' and decided what side of that fence they come down on.

Look at Brett Favre now getting felated all around the NFL media for beating the former team that he left in the lurch season after season, until finally they had enough. ESPN and the like are trying to sell us on the Packers FO being the bad guys there, just like they tried selling Broncos fans on McDaniels being the bad guy with Cutler. But Brett had his chance to play football in Green Bay, nobody forced him out the door. They just didn't welcome him back with open arms and tears in their eyes every time he changed his mind.

Same with Cutler. McDaniels wasn't willing to put Cutler on a pedestal over every other player on the team (promising not to trade Cutler) and as a result the "me first" mindset that Cutler lives his career by could not coexist in a "team first" atmosphere. That is when Cook went to work using said media to twist and distort what really happened.

rastaman
10-09-2009, 03:04 PM
Same with Cutler. McDaniels wasn't willing to put Cutler on a pedestal over every other player on the team (promising not to trade Cutler) and as a result the "me first" mindset that Cutler lives his career by could not coexist in a "team first" atmosphere. That is when Cook went to work using said media to twist and distort what really happened.

McDaniels screwed things up when he put his Pro Bowl QB on the trading block then lied about it. Thats what started this whole debacle.

Cutler tried to smooth over the back door trade screw up with every intention of remaining a Bronco and moving forward. According to Cutler, he and McD weren't in there but about 20 minutes, [McDaniels] did most of the talking and, he made it clear he wants his own guy. McD admitted he wanted Matt Cassel because he said he has raised him up from the ground as a quarterback. He said he wasn't sorry about it. He made it clear that he could still entertain trading Cutler because, as he put it, he'll do whatever he feels is in the best interest of the organization. Ya see in the end, Cutler could no longer trust McDaniels.

McDaniels attitude wasn't like, 'Jay, I want you as our quarterback, you're our guy.' It was the opposite. McDaniels basically came off as antagonizing Cutler, and it was disappointing to Cutler, and Cutler thought it was time to move on. Prior to McD coming off as a Prima Donna, Cutler was really looking forward to figuring and hashing things out, shake hands, laugh a little and move forward. What happened at the last meeting btwn the two of them wasn't what Cutler was expecting. Cutler actually thought things could be fixed.

Cutler said: "You know, even after the meeting, I hung around town, kind of expecting him to call me and say, 'Hey, let's just me and you get away and have lunch or a cup of coffee' and mend things, but that didn't happen. So, I get it, really, it's a business. I'm disappointed because I love being a Bronco but I think it's run its course."

Cook said that as an agent he was "totally in shock" that it has gotten so ugly.

"I would have bet my house going into Saturday's meeting that everyone would be shaking hands and smiling," Cook said. "I thought it was going to get worked out. But it was very clear to me that Jay Cutler is not their choice to be quarterback of that team."

Yet Cook admitted that when he called Xanders to request a trade on Saturday night, the team's general manager said it wasn't going to happen and that "Jay should show up Monday."

Oh well, the rest is history!!!;)

prunch
10-09-2009, 03:13 PM
McDaniels screwed things up when he put his Pro Bowl QB on the trading block then lied about it. Thats what started this whole debacle.

Cutler tried to smooth over the back door trade screw up with every intention of remaining a Bronco and moving forward. According to Cutler, he and McD weren't in there but about 20 minutes, [McDaniels] did most of the talking and, he made it clear he wants his own guy. McD admitted he wanted Matt Cassel because he said he has raised him up from the ground as a quarterback. He said he wasn't sorry about it. He made it clear that he could still entertain trading Cutler because, as he put it, he'll do whatever he feels is in the best interest of the organization. Ya see in the end, Cutler could no longer trust McDaniels.

McDaniels attitude wasn't like, 'Jay, I want you as our quarterback, you're our guy.' It was the opposite. McDaniels basically came off as antagonizing Cutler, and it was disappointing to Cutler, and Cutler thought it was time to move on. Prior to McD coming off as a Prima Donna, Cutler was really looking forward to figuring and hashing things out, shake hands, laugh a little and move forward. What happened at the last meeting btwn the two of them wasn't what Cutler was expecting. Cutler actually thought things could be fixed.

Cutler said: "You know, even after the meeting, I hung around town, kind of expecting him to call me and say, 'Hey, let's just me and you get away and have lunch or a cup of coffee' and mend things, but that didn't happen. So, I get it, really, it's a business. I'm disappointed because I love being a Bronco but I think it's run its course."

Cook said that as an agent he was "totally in shock" that it has gotten so ugly.

"I would have bet my house going into Saturday's meeting that everyone would be shaking hands and smiling," Cook said. "I thought it was going to get worked out. But it was very clear to me that Jay Cutler is not their choice to be quarterback of that team."

Yet Cook admitted that when he called Xanders to request a trade on Saturday night, the team's general manager said it wasn't going to happen and that "Jay should show up Monday."

Oh well, the rest is history!!!;)

How do you know this as fact?

Everyone is going to paint their side of the story as rosy as possible. Not sure I trust Bus Cook or Cutler. Cutler never made any attempt to come out publicly before he was eventually traded to say he wanted to stay. His actions suggested from minute one that he did not.

Not saying it was all superbly handled from managements point of view either but I can understand them not giving Cutler some sense that he could bully his head coach or owner into some special treatment. The benefits of a "team first" culture that we are enjoying now could not exist if they conceded some special treatment to Cutler ... capable and important as he was, he is only one player.

Florida_Bronco
10-09-2009, 03:40 PM
McDaniels screwed things up when he put his Pro Bowl QB on the trading block then lied about it. Thats what started this whole debacle. Except that never happened. Every reliable media outlet (Schefter included) was very clear about the fact that all the calls were inbound and declined.

Cutler tried to smooth over the back door trade screw up with every intention of remaining a Bronco and moving forward. According to Cutler, he and McD weren't in there but about 20 minutes, [McDaniels] did most of the talking and, he made it clear he wants his own guy. McD admitted he wanted Matt Cassel because he said he has raised him up from the ground as a quarterback. And both McDaniels and Bowlen disputed this. Seeing as how Jay clearly proved to be a liar I'll take McD/Bowlen's word for it.

He said he wasn't sorry about it. He made it clear that he could still entertain trading Cutler because, as he put it, he'll do whatever he feels is in the best interest of the organization. And that's the way it should be. NO ONE is above getting traded if it makes the team better.

Ya see in the end, Cutler could no longer trust McDaniels to coddle him. Fixed.

McDaniels attitude wasn't like, 'Jay, I want you as our quarterback, you're our guy.' It was the opposite. McDaniels basically came off as antagonizing Cutler, and it was disappointing to Cutler, and Cutler thought it was time to move on. Prior to McD coming off as a Prima Donna, Cutler was really looking forward to figuring and hashing things out, shake hands, laugh a little and move forward. What happened at the last meeting btwn the two of them wasn't what Cutler was expecting. Cutler actually thought things could be fixed. Again, all bull****.

El Minion
10-09-2009, 03:47 PM
http://footballoutsiders.com/stats/qb

This is a better comparison of how the QBs are playing this year.

*Note: This does not claim to tell you who are the best QBs. This is a statistical comparison of QB numbers for this year only and does not take into account injury, personnel, system, coaching, etc.

And an even better comparison would be their performance the past few years:

FO RANK
YR 08 07 06 05
KO 21 NR NR 45
JC 05 08 33 XX

errand
10-09-2009, 04:21 PM
Brandon Marshall is on pace for quite a drop in his stats in 09.

Recep Yards TD
64 832 8

...but he could also be playing in the playoffs. So the question is do you want to catch 100 balls ona non-playoff caliber 8-8 mediocre team...or catch 64 balls and have a chance to win all the marbles?

strafen
10-09-2009, 07:01 PM
...but he could also be playing in the playoffs. So the question is do you want to catch 100 balls ona non-playoff caliber 8-8 mediocre team...or catch 64 balls and have a chance to win all the marbles?I think catching 100 balls gives us a better chance to play for all the marbles than catching 64 balls any day, especially with the way the defense is playing right now...

rastaman
10-10-2009, 05:00 AM
Except that never happened. Every reliable media outlet (Schefter included) was very clear about the fact that all the calls were inbound and declined.

And both McDaniels and Bowlen disputed this. Seeing as how Jay clearly proved to be a liar I'll take McD/Bowlen's word for it.

And that's the way it should be. NO ONE is above getting traded if it makes the team better.

Fixed.

Again, all bull****.

So according to you Bowlen & McD are tellling the truth and Cook and Cutler are lying.....CORRECT! Why can't someone call Bull Crap on your version as well?

rastaman
10-10-2009, 05:41 AM
...but he could also be playing in the playoffs. So the question is do you want to catch 100 balls ona non-playoff caliber 8-8 mediocre team...or catch 64 balls and have a chance to win all the marbles?

Actually its a double edge sword. Think about it. Within a NE Belichick-McDaniels system, the ball is spread around and the stats are lowered as a result, and lets say the team goes to the playoffs and SB. However when contract time comes around and the star players who helped get the team to the playoffs and SBs start to renegotiate their contracts, and want to be paid on level with their peers, the first thing management will do is tell the players their stats are not in to top 5 and therefore don't call for top tier salary contracts. Thus keeping these players from realizing the great paydays their peers are receiving and what they deserve to earn.

Don't get me wrong winning is great! But the players need to realize that their window of opportunity to get paid is short and they should put their salaries over the team chemistry of winning. Because when their playing days are over the NFL teams such as the NE Patriots will no longer continue to pay these players some form of supplement income for taking pay cuts or lower salaries to keep the team winning out of loyalty.

Why should player(s) lose out on $15-60 million in salaries and bonuses to placate to the owner, the HC, your teammates, and the fans, when truth be told when you're no longer any use to said football team, you are traded or released outright! That doesn't sound like loyalty to me.....does it sound like loyalty to YOU!

So no, I say screw the team concept of short term winning and sacrifice for a team that doesn't guarantee contracts in the first place. Players need to get and demand as much money as they can conceivable receive. Because when the cheers STOP! and they will, the only thing that counts is the BANK ACCOUNT!

Chances are when that day comes the bodies of these players are broken and injured beyond repair, yet these guys once entertained millions of fans, made the owners 100's of millions of dollars, made HC's into winners are forgotten warriors. So I can't over emphasize that players need to look out for themselves when it comes contracts in the NFL.

baja
10-10-2009, 06:20 AM
Actually its a double edge sword. Think about it. Within a NE Belichick-McDaniels system, the ball is spread around and the stats are lowered as a result, and lets say the team goes to the playoffs and SB. However when contract time comes around and the star players who helped get the team to the playoffs and SBs start to renegotiate their contracts, and want to be paid on level with their peers, the first thing management will do is tell the players their stats are not in to top 5 and therefore don't call for top tier salary contracts. Thus keeping these players from realizing the great paydays their peers are receiving and what they deserve to earn.

Don't get me wrong winning is great! But the players need to realize that their window of opportunity to get paid is short and they should put their salaries over the team chemistry of winning. Because when their playing days are over the NFL teams such as the NE Patriots will no longer continue to pay these players some form of supplement income for taking pay cuts or lower salaries to keep the team winning out of loyalty.

Why should player(s) lose out on $15-60 million in salaries and bonuses to placate to the owner, the HC, your teammates, and the fans, when truth be told when you're no longer any use to said football team, you are traded or released outright! That doesn't sound like loyalty to me.....does it sound like loyalty to YOU!

So no, I say screw the team concept of short term winning and sacrifice for a team that doesn't guarantee contracts in the first place. Players need to get and demand as much money as they can conceivable receive. Because when the cheers STOP! and they will, the only thing that counts is the BANK ACCOUNT!

Chances are when that day comes the bodies of these players are broken and injured beyond repair, yet these guys once entertained millions of fans, made the owners 100's of millions of dollars, made HC's into winners are forgotten warriors. So I can't over emphasize that players need to look out for themselves when it comes contracts in the NFL.

This is the best post I have seen depicting what is wrong with pro sports and our society in general. When did it become about only the money in this country. I am sure Rasta doesn't even see the flaw in his thinking.

rastaman
10-10-2009, 06:38 AM
This is the best post I have seen depicting what is wrong with pro sports and our society in general. When did it become about only the money in this country. I am sure Rasta doesn't even see the flaw in his thinking.

Why is it a flawed way of thinking when you take into consideration the violent nature of the NFL and the short careers and debilitating permanent injuries players in the NFL are at risk to receive. Just calling it like it is.

Remember, Owners can own a team for 50 plus years! HC's (if they're good) can be hired in their 30's and coach into their 70's! Fans can enjoy the NFL and root for their teams from 12 years old into their 70's.

None of the aforementioned are putting their lives, short and long term health on the line except for the PLAYERS. So of course its the players that should put MONEY above all else to play in the NFL.

Do you think the NFL owners are owners just b/c they want to give fans entertainment! Hell no, the NFL owners are Corporate Capitalist and are in it for the money as well. Professional Sports is all about MONEY. Sorry to break it to ya!:peace:

baja
10-10-2009, 06:57 AM
Why is it a flawed way of thinking when you take into consideration the violent nature of the NFL and the short careers and debilitating permanent injuries players in the NFL are at risk to receive. Just calling it like it is.

Remember, Owners can own a team for 50 plus years! HC's (if they're good) can be hired in their 30's and coach into their 70's! Fans can enjoy the NFL and root for their teams from 12 years old into their 70's.

None of the aforementioned are putting their lives, short and long term health on the line except for the PLAYERS. So of course its the players that should put MONEY above all else to play in the NFL.

Do you think the NFL owners are owners just b/c they want to give fans entertainment! Hell no, the NFL owners are Corporate Capitalist and are in it for the money as well. Professional Sports is all about MONEY. Sorry to break it to ya!:peace:

It's not like the players are getting nothing. The agents with there greed are hurting themselves, their client and the league in general with the insane greed. Sure the players should be compensated and they are handsomely . You like to make the small window argument, your working career should span about 48 or 50 years do you think you will make any thing close to what an average NFL player will make? Not to mention when you control all that money as a young man your investment opportunities are tremendous. Use Michael Crabtree as an example, do you think his hold out was in his best interest, the interest of the league that makes his value possible or his team. All this greed is what is ruining the NFL and on a larger scale this country.

The Joker
10-10-2009, 07:02 AM
Steelers leading receiver in 2008 - Hines Ward - 81 receptions.

Giants leading receiver in 2007 - Plaxico Burress - 70 receptions.

Colts leading receiver in 2006 - Marvin Harrison - 95 receptions.

Steelers leading receiver in 2005 - Hines Ward - 69 receptions.

Patriots leading receiver in 2004 - David Givens - 56 receptions.

Patriots leading receiver in 2003 - Deion Branch - 57 receptions.

Buccaneers leading receiver in 2002 - Keyshawn Johnson - 56 receptions.

Patriots leading receiver in 2001 - Troy Brown - 101 receptions.

Ravens leading receiver in 2000 - Shannon Sharpe - 67 receptions.

Rams leading receiver in 1999 - Marshall Faulk - 87 receptions.

The last 10 Superbowl winners.

Outside of huge seasons by Troy Brown and Marvin Harrison, there's nothing to get massively excited about in terms of receivers putting up huge reception stats. In fact, two of the teams were led in receptions by guys who don't even play WR.

The average number of receptions for the top receiver on a Superbowl winning team is ever so slightly less than 74. (73.9)

Basically, to win you need receivers who can get in the endzone and make a big play every now and then.

Marshall had 204 catches for the last two years, but only 13 TD's in that time.

If he puts up a 70 catch, 10 TD season then that's far more useful to us as a team than anything we've seen from him before.

TheReverend
10-10-2009, 07:29 AM
This is the best post I have seen depicting what is wrong with pro sports and our society in general. When did it become about only the money in this country. I am sure Rasta doesn't even see the flaw in his thinking.

You're aware the US is a capitalist nation, right?

baja
10-10-2009, 07:38 AM
You're aware the US is a capitalist nation, right?

Time has proven Capitalism needs some regulation due to human nature. Do you doubt that statement Rev?

errand
10-10-2009, 09:40 AM
I think catching 100 balls gives us a better chance to play for all the marbles than catching 64 balls any day, especially with the way the defense is playing right now...

How so? You do realize the main reason he's caught over 100 passes the past two years was because we were playing from behind an awful lot. When you're playing catch up you tend to throw the ball alot (unless you've got Peyton Manning or Kurt Warner as your QB)

It's been mentioned on here numerous times that the Broncos have much better winning pct. when the QB has around 200 yards passing vs. 300 yards.....coincidence? I think not.

Spider
10-10-2009, 09:47 AM
Cutler and Orton are putting up similar numbers .preposterous ,Cutler is a franchise QB ,Orton is a bandaid ........:D ok truth be told i just learned what preposterous is and wanted to use it in a sentence.........

errand
10-10-2009, 09:52 AM
Why is it a flawed way of thinking when you take into consideration the violent nature of the NFL and the short careers and debilitating permanent injuries players in the NFL are at risk to receive. Just calling it like it is.

Remember, Owners can own a team for 50 plus years! HC's (if they're good) can be hired in their 30's and coach into their 70's! Fans can enjoy the NFL and root for their teams from 12 years old into their 70's.

None of the aforementioned are putting their lives, short and long term health on the line except for the PLAYERS. So of course its the players that should put MONEY above all else to play in the NFL.

Do you think the NFL owners are owners just b/c they want to give fans entertainment! Hell no, the NFL owners are Corporate Capitalist and are in it for the money as well. Professional Sports is all about MONEY. Sorry to break it to ya!:peace:


...of course you always leave out the guaranteed $$$ of signing bonuses paid to players who then suck eggs after signing their huge contract. Look at how much players make, and I don't begrudge them that...because their careers are relatively short and they can be crippled for life...however they also are the benfactors of contracts that pay them alot of money despite their lack of production as well.

See, contracts protect both parties involved......it gives both parties recourse should this or that happen. Incentive bonuses, etc. are also included in alot of them. without knowing what EXACTLY is in a player's contract, how can you factually state if he's being fairly compensated or not?


I recall when Barry Sanders was a young player and his contract had an incentive clause that stated if he led the league in rushing, he'd get an extra $100K or something...the Lions were blowing out an opponent, and the scrubs were in running out the clock to get the win, and he was a few yards shy of the lead. His head coach Wayne Fontes (?) turned to him and asked him if he wanted to go back in and earn that bonus....Barry said "No, let (whoever his understudy was) carry the rock, and let's go home with a win"

I miss players like him.....

errand
10-10-2009, 09:56 AM
Time has proven Capitalism needs some regulation due to human nature. Do you doubt that statement Rev?

It never occurs to guys like you that government regulation has caused more problems than it's ever solved.....but then again, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

baja
10-10-2009, 10:12 AM
It never occurs to guys like you that government regulation has caused more problems than it's ever solved.....but then again, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Guys like me???

baja
10-10-2009, 10:14 AM
It never occurs to guys like you that government regulation has caused more problems than it's ever solved.....but then again, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Just look what the banking system did to the investors around the world (hedge funds & derivatives ) and tell me you don't need regulations. It's not even debatable.

strafen
10-10-2009, 10:24 AM
Cutler and Orton are putting up similar numbers .preposterous ,Cutler is a franchise QB ,Orton is a bandaid ........:D ok truth be told i just learned what preposterous is and wanted to use it in a sentence.........

:rofl: :rofl: :thumbsup:

strafen
10-10-2009, 10:30 AM
So according to you Bowlen & McD are tellling the truth and Cook and Cutler are lying.....CORRECT! Why can't someone call Bull Crap on your version as well?Let's review some facts in a chronological kind of order...
After Shanahan was fired, way before Cutler met with McD to discussed his trade demands, Cutler HAD already put his mom's house and his own in the market for sale.
That was the same week bfeore he met with McD when he stormed off his office saying he wanted to be traded yet again...
Now, that didn't show committment on Cutler's part to have gone into that meeting with an open mind with the thought of working things out, did it?

TonyR
10-10-2009, 11:27 AM
Cutler has also had a much more difficult schedule vs. ours. GB at the road, Pittsburgh at home, and Seattle at their house are vastly different than Cincy, Cleveland, and Oakland over the first three.


To be fair, GB hasn't been very good, Pittsburgh's defense hasn't been great and playing without Polamalu, and Seattle is nothing special and was without their starting QB and LT. Chi was very fortunate to win the Pitt and Sea games.

misturanderson
10-10-2009, 12:17 PM
It's not like the players are getting nothing. The agents with there greed are hurting themselves, their client and the league in general with the insane greed. Sure the players should be compensated and they are handsomely . You like to make the small window argument, your working career should span about 48 or 50 years do you think you will make any thing close to what an average NFL player will make? Not to mention when you control all that money as a young man your investment opportunities are tremendous. Use Michael Crabtree as an example, do you think his hold out was in his best interest, the interest of the league that makes his value possible or his team. All this greed is what is ruining the NFL and on a larger scale this country.

It also doesn't hurt to take into account that these guys got a free college education and if they fail at football and can't get a decent job after that, it's their own damn fault.

The ability to play in the NFL is an awesome privledge, but it isn't their right. They may deserve that kind of money in a capitalist society that spends as much money on sports as we do, but they certainly don't NEED it.

rastaman
10-10-2009, 12:22 PM
To be fair, GB hasn't been very good, Pittsburgh's defense hasn't been great and playing without Polamalu, and Seattle is nothing special and was without their starting QB and LT. Chi was very fortunate to win the Pitt and Sea games.

And we were very fortunate to win the Cincy game and the Cowboy game.

Florida_Bronco
10-10-2009, 12:23 PM
So according to you Bowlen & McD are tellling the truth and Cook and Cutler are lying.....CORRECT! Why can't someone call Bull Crap on your version as well?

They could, if they could find anyone with knowledge of the events that would support Cutler/Cook's version. That won't happen because the true insiders support McD/Bowlen's version and we witnessed Jay tell a bold face lie right to the media.

misturanderson
10-10-2009, 12:25 PM
They could, if they could find anyone with knowledge of the events that would support Cutler/Cook's version. That won't happen because the true insiders support McD/Bowlen's version and we witnessed Jay tell a bold face lie right to the media.

But the infallible Chris Mortenson backs up Cutler's story. It has to be true. I mean Shanahan is coaching the chiefs this year, right?

Florida_Bronco
10-10-2009, 12:34 PM
But the infallible Chris Mortenson backs up Cutler's story. It has to be true. I mean Shanahan is coaching the chiefs this year, right?

Yep. :thanku:

lostknight
10-10-2009, 02:00 PM
They could, if they could find anyone with knowledge of the events that would support Cutler/Cook's version. That won't happen because the true insiders support McD/Bowlen's version and we witnessed Jay tell a bold face lie right to the media.

Sorry no. Neither side has proven their case. Both sides should show off their phone records. That will settle it.

Until then, it's hearsay all around.

Drek
10-10-2009, 02:11 PM
Sorry no. Neither side has proven their case. Both sides should show off their phone records. That will settle it.

Until then, it's hearsay all around.

Funny. Bowlen and co. offered to do just that, but no one took them up on it.

Not to mention Cutler outright lying in his first press conference as a Bear. "I never wanted to be traded". No, just had his agent request it for over a month and air organizational laundry through the media at every possible turn, but he didn't want to be traded. Big misunderstanding.

Spider
10-10-2009, 03:16 PM
Sorry no. Neither side has proven their case. Both sides should show off their phone records. That will settle it.

Until then, it's hearsay all around.

you make **** up as you go along ?

Florida_Bronco
10-10-2009, 03:31 PM
Funny. Bowlen and co. offered to do just that, but no one took them up on it.

Not to mention Cutler outright lying in his first press conference as a Bear. "I never wanted to be traded". No, just had his agent request it for over a month and air organizational laundry through the media at every possible turn, but he didn't want to be traded. Big misunderstanding.

Exactly.

BroncoBuff
10-10-2009, 04:17 PM
I am endlessly fascinated with why you guys care so much, and with how badly you want him to fail.

And what "dirty laundry" exactly?

HAT
10-10-2009, 04:22 PM
I am endlessly fascinated with why you guys care so much, and with how badly you want him to fail.



Really?

Every Bronco fan on this planet should be rooting for as much Cutler fail as possible. That's not obvious to you?

gyldenlove
10-10-2009, 04:26 PM
Really?

Every Bronco fan on this planet should be rooting for as much Cutler fail as possible. That's not obvious to you?

So we can trade away the pick we get for a 2nd rounder?, we can't afford a top 10 draft pick.

HEAV
10-10-2009, 04:28 PM
I am endlessly fascinated with why you guys care so much, and with how badly you want him to fail.

And what "dirty laundry" exactly?

Cutler to fail you mean?

Not that it would have anything to do with a draft selection now...


Speaking of wanting to fail... weren't there a few that wanted past players like Plummer to fail? Not to mention some coach named McDaniels.

So are you saying you didn't root for Javon Walker to fail?

Face it Cutler rubbed more than a few people the wrong way and they (myself included) want to see him fall on his face and give this team a better draft position in 2010.

BroncoBuff
10-10-2009, 04:47 PM
Every Bronco fan on this planet should be rooting for as much Cutler fail as possible. That's not obvious to you?

It's obvious that's not what I was talking about.

BroncoBuff
10-10-2009, 04:49 PM
Cutler to fail you mean?

Not that it would have anything to do with a draft selection now...


Speaking of wanting to fail... weren't there a few that wanted past players like Plummer to fail? Not to mention some coach named McDaniels.

So are you saying you didn't root for Javon Walker to fail?

Face it Cutler rubbed more than a few people the wrong way and they (myself included) want to see him fall on his face and give this team a better draft position in 2010.

Now THAT makes sense ... those are good reasons to dislike the whiny bastage.

But please don't strain and twist to pretend he "sucks" as a player ... reality has its place, even if you hate a guy, and even if your name is Tony. :nono:

Drek
10-10-2009, 04:54 PM
I am endlessly fascinated with why you guys care so much, and with how badly you want him to fail.

And what "dirty laundry" exactly?

The morning after the story of the Broncos even entertaining a trade for Cutler he was running the interview circuit saying that he felt betrayed by the organization.

In the following weeks he'd trot out claims that Bowlen promised he'd be the centerpiece of the organization, that McDaniels was entertaining trading him the week he was in the facility going over the offense, etc.

He flat out said word for word "I don't feel like I can trust McDaniels" and later "I don't feel like I can trust the organization".

How is that not organizational laundry? Did he really need to hit up every interview he could get within the first week of the story breaking, before he even talked to McDaniels (by his own admission)?

Buff, I know you've got buckets of man love for Cutler and thats great, when he's on he's an exciting player. But he's the one who handled that whole situation like an unprofessional punk. McDaniels stayed the course and didn't let it degrade into a public he said/he said battle. That is what forced Cutler/Cook to go with the "organization" approach instead of McDaniels in particular.

I don't hate the guy, I wish him the best of luck as I've said before. But the constant need to run Orton down because he isn't Jay Cutler is ****ing idiotic. Its the single most retarded thing I've seen on here ever, period. In fact, its downright disappointing that the overall football IQ of this board has gotten so damn low that people like myself have to defend Orton from the constant stop gap/backup at best/etc. labels everyone feels like sticking on a guy who so far is 4-0 and getting better every week.

Maybe he is just a stop gap. If so it'll be proven over the course of the season. But maybe he's actually a capable distributor and caretaker of the football as well as a leader of men and given the weapons (which we have) and protection (which we have) he can deliver elite QB results. We don't know until we see it. The mindset that you've got to grind the axe early and often is what has made for so much crow being served around here the last few weeks.

BroncoBuff
10-10-2009, 05:20 PM
The morning after the story of the Broncos even entertaining a trade for Cutler he was running the interview circuit saying that he felt betrayed by the organization.

In the following weeks he'd trot out claims that Bowlen promised he'd be the centerpiece of the organization, that McDaniels was entertaining trading him the week he was in the facility going over the offense, etc.

He flat out said word for word "I don't feel like I can trust McDaniels" and later "I don't feel like I can trust the organization".

Okay, now we're getting somewhere. I'm not sure that's "dirty laundry," but it's definitely b****y. I honestly don't remember him saying much if anything to the press himself, but he did have Bus demand a trade, no argument there.

And if he said the Bowlen promise of "centerpiece," that actually makes sense because Bowlen called him "the man around here" when Mike was fired. He still would be the man around here had he just shut his yap.

Nobody's denying he was a whiny, childish, immature b****. He most definitely was.


Buff, I know you've got buckets of man love for Cutler and thats great, when he's on he's an exciting player. But he's the one who handled that whole situation like an unprofessional punk. McDaniels stayed the course and didn't let it degrade into a public he said/he said battle. That is what forced Cutler/Cook to go with the "organization" approach instead of McDaniels in particular.

I don't hate the guy, I wish him the best of luck as I've said before.
Thanks for giving me my man-love I guess ... I can't hate him, I can't turn on him like that, no matter what kind of immature b**** he was. He was everything that football was for me for three years. Sounds gay maybe, but emotionally, I just can't 'kick him to the curb' that fast (and now I'm settled on just being a fan of his).

And you don't have to "wish him the best." It's a nice thought, but you and any of us have a right to hate Jay the person. But let's just stick to that (like HEAV just did), and stop pretending he sucks as a player. He's an immature player, but there's every reason to believe he'll mature into a real leader.


But the constant need to run Orton down because he isn't Jay Cutler is ****ing idiotic. Its the single most retarded thing I've seen on here ever, period. In fact, its downright disappointing that the overall football IQ of this board has gotten so damn low that people like myself have to defend Orton from the constant stop gap/backup at best/etc. labels everyone feels like sticking on a guy who so far is 4-0 and getting better every week.
I love Orton now, I really do, who wouldn't love him now? ;D

And I will cop to having run down Orton a lot, a WHOLE lot in pre-season. But Drek, 4 interceptions in one half?! I can't remember when, or even if I've ever seen that. I love his mistake-free play now though, and to be honest - partly because of your posts here - I'm less and less thinking we need to draft a QBOTF. He's just 26, right? Josh's offense doesn't really need a huge talent skillset, so I'm open to the idea of him as QBOTF now.

Missouribronc
10-10-2009, 09:27 PM
They did for the first seven weeks last year too...wait until Chicago collapses...lol...

Drek
10-11-2009, 03:49 AM
And you don't have to "wish him the best." It's a nice thought, but you and any of us have a right to hate Jay the person. But let's just stick to that (like HEAV just did), and stop pretending he sucks as a player. He's an immature player, but there's every reason to believe he'll mature into a real leader.

I know I don't have to wish him the best, but after this year I still do. His problems aren't about him being a bad person, just a self centered, immature person. Brett Favre was an incredibly exciting player to watch and could still rally a team, despite having those same issues.

And I don't think he sucks as a player, never implied such a thing. But he's not even close to elite. He could be. I don't see the staff and surrounding cast in Chicago letting him become an elite QB unfortunately, but that'll probably change sooner than later. I'm hoping for a late season Cutler collapse in part because that would make room for Shanahan, who would actually build the support around Jay and give him the polish he needs to be a great QB.

And I will cop to having run down Orton a lot, a WHOLE lot in pre-season. But Drek, 4 interceptions in one half?! I can't remember when, or even if I've ever seen that. I love his mistake-free play now though, and to be honest - partly because of your posts here - I'm less and less thinking we need to draft a QBOTF. He's just 26, right? Josh's offense doesn't really need a huge talent skillset, so I'm open to the idea of him as QBOTF now.
Like I said when it happened, Shanahan used pre-season games to run the base package at full speed in pads. McDaniels coaches the base D at full speed in pads during practice, and so he uses the pre-season to test his QB's comfort level. Matt Cassel looked like absolute dog **** last pre-season to the point where a lot of Pats fans wanted him outright cut. Its just how McDaniels utilizes pre-season.

And yes, Orton is 26, won't be 27 until November. McDaniels' offense does require a pretty valuable skillset, its just primarily centered on things guy shave from the neck up, not the neck down. Orton has the football IQ to manage the system, and that is what McDaniels' QBs are supposed to do.

McDaniels' version of the spread is the modern day version of the WCO. Dump offs to the RBs and TEs are in part replaced by using the slot WR more, but its a similar concept (QB distributes the ball to guys in space who can make plays after the catch). Neither McDaniels' spread or the WCO require elite throwers behind center, just field generals who don't end drives with mistakes and can find that open guy with regularity.

rastaman
10-11-2009, 06:23 AM
It also doesn't hurt to take into account that these guys got a free college education and if they fail at football and can't get a decent job after that, it's their own damn fault.

The ability to play in the NFL is an awesome privledge, but it isn't their right. They may deserve that kind of money in a capitalist society that spends as much money on sports as we do, but they certainly don't NEED it.

Same can be said that its a privlege to be an NFL owner and to even join the closed socieity of the Good Ole Boy system of NFL owners. After all just no anyone can own an NFL franchise. NFL Teams are corporate entities and Corporation exist with the permission of the U.S. Gov't. So its definitely a two way street.

TonyR
10-11-2009, 08:36 AM
... reality has its place, even if you hate a guy, and even if your name is Tony.

???

Popps
11-12-2009, 07:54 PM
I guess we can close this thread, huh?

eddie mac
11-13-2009, 01:37 AM
17 picks through 9 games is Vinny Testaverde country from 1988.

gtown
11-13-2009, 06:48 AM
Kyle Orton - 1838 yards, 63.2 completion %, 9 TDs, 4 INTs, 88.2 QB Rating
Jay Cutler - 2353 yards, 62.4 completion %, 14 TDs, 17 INTs, 76.0 QB Rating

I bet if you subtract all the interception runback yards from Cutler's total, that they are pretty close in that department as well.

HEAV
11-13-2009, 09:12 AM
Going off the new numbers as of today, Cutlers 9 games and Ortons 8 games, the numbers could look like this after 16 games.

Cutler 4183 Passing yards 24 Touchdowns 30 Interceptions



Orton 3676 Passing yards 18 Touchdowns 7 Interceptions

Again does Cutlers potential 6 more touchdowns out weigh his 23 more interceprions?

Sorry Cutler faithfull...that Jeff George numbers.

Bears could end up 7-9 and that could be worth a #10 draft selection in the 1st Round.

oubronco
11-13-2009, 09:17 AM
Kyle Orton - 1838 yards, 63.2 completion %, 9 TDs, 4 INTs, 88.2 QB Rating
Jay Cutler - 2353 yards, 62.4 completion %, 14 TDs, 17 INTs, 76.0 QB Rating

I bet if you subtract all the interception runback yards from Cutler's total, that they are pretty close in that department as well.

Orton's not lighting it up either 9 tds to 4 int's isn't very good

Eldorado
11-13-2009, 09:19 AM
he "sucks" as a player ... reality has its place,

Finally. buff seeing the light ^5

BroncoBuff
11-13-2009, 01:08 PM
Finally. buff seeing the light ^5

I don't think I wrote that ... but he did suck last night.

The first and last Ints were two of the worst ever.

Ever.

Peoples Champ
11-13-2009, 01:59 PM
Orton's not lighting it up either 9 tds to 4 int's isn't very good


they never were, he goes for that stat in the win/loss collumn. We are 6-2.