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View Full Version : Jason Whitlock: McDaniels' mishandling of Cutler might've destroyed a Super Bowl team


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Braxton34
10-08-2009, 11:41 AM
Here is Jason Whitlock's take on the Broncos fast start.......

7. It's comical watching everyone fall over themselves praising Josh McDaniels for Denver's 4-0 start when the Broncos' undefeated start is the No. 1 reason McDaniels should be ripped.

Put Jay Cutler under center and the Broncos are a serious Super Bowl threat rather than a nice, first-quarter-of-the-season story.

Kyle Orton ain't winning no Super Bowl. Not in this life. Not on this planet. McDaniels' mishandling of Cutler might've destroyed a Super Bowl team. That's the story. That mistake isn't water under the bridge. We don't forget about it because it happened in February. You can lose the Super Bowl in the offseason just as easily as you can by improperly using timeouts or calling the wrong plays.

cousinal11
10-08-2009, 11:43 AM
This is going to get ugly. Quick.

Flex Gunmetal
10-08-2009, 11:43 AM
link?

Flex Gunmetal
10-08-2009, 11:44 AM
Oh and we all knew he was a total moron, he just likes to remind us from time to time.

Anaximines
10-08-2009, 11:44 AM
keep it coming, put it on the bulletin board

Anaximines
10-08-2009, 11:45 AM
Why doesn't anyone give Orton any love at all? No picks!!

bronco militia
10-08-2009, 11:46 AM
"My bad, coach"

TheReverend
10-08-2009, 11:49 AM
Eh, not hating, just have to agree with him on this one right now.

Lebronco
10-08-2009, 11:52 AM
"It's comical watching everyone fall over themselves praising Josh McDaniels for Denver's 4-0 start when the Broncos' undefeated start is the No. 1 reason McDaniels should be ripped.

Put Jay Cutler under center and the Broncos are a serious Super Bowl threat rather than a nice, first-quarter-of-the-season story.

Kyle Orton ain't winning no Super Bowl. Not in this life. Not on this planet. McDaniels' mishandling of Cutler might've destroyed a Super Bowl team. That's the story. That mistake isn't water under the bridge. We don't forget about it because it happened in February. You can lose the Super Bowl in the offseason just as easily as you can by improperly using timeouts or calling the wrong plays."

I don't believe the Kyle Orton led Broncos= Trent Dilfer led Broncos.
There I said it, hoping to eat crow, but Whitlock speaks the inconvenient truth.

Peoples Champ
10-08-2009, 11:53 AM
this guy is a dbag, with Cutler we would have drafted differently and might not have gotten Knowshon, Ayers, or smith.

This is a team sport, qb is important, but so is a Defense. Look at Tampa Bay and Baltimore, both won superbowl with Defense, and Dilfer and Brad Johnson at QB. That is looking like the direction we are going in, with a more potent offense then those teams.

SouthStndJunkie
10-08-2009, 11:55 AM
"My bad, coach"

I'm not talking about "my bad" anymore. Just make the play!

bronco militia
10-08-2009, 11:56 AM
I don't have a problem with what Fatlock said.....IMO, Orton is just along for the ride....

hades
10-08-2009, 11:57 AM
He's right, with as many playoff wins as Cutler had here in Denver, we were sooo close to getting to the Super Bowl.

TheDave
10-08-2009, 11:57 AM
eh, not hating, just have to agree with him on this one right now.

+1

Captain Bronco
10-08-2009, 11:58 AM
Okay, I'll admit the thought has occurred to me that if we still had Cutler, we'd be a Super Bowl contender. But you also have to keep in mind that without Josh McDaniels and Mike Nolan, the defense wouldn't be nearly as good as it is. Did McDaniels screw up the Cutler thing? Yes. But he also helped make one of the league's wost defenses into (from first appearances) one of the league's best. It's give and take, I suppose.

alkemical
10-08-2009, 11:58 AM
honestly, anyone that says cutler isn't a more talented qb is being retarded.

We have orton, and while king neckbeard doesn't inspire confidence in me that he can take a game over and win it - i don't hate the bastard.

But some of the people on this board are really ****ing silly.

Mr. Elway
10-08-2009, 12:02 PM
I don't think Whitlock's statement is outrageous on it's face - many people hold that you need a franchise QB to win a superbowl. Even though that's not true, there is some reason behind the logic (it makes it easier if your QB is a huge threat).

But his reasoning is flawed for two reasons: First, he assumes that Cutler is the type of franchise QB that can win a championship. Argue it all you want, he has not proven it. Second, Whitlock is holding McDaniels to a ridiculous standard: That he is not successful this year unless he wins a superbowl. Given this team's playoff record since the 98 season, and especially the last couple of years, that is silly. For McDaniels to "destroy a superbowl team" there first has to be a superbowl team. It's an argument based on a lot of assumption and conjecture.

McDaniels' immediate success here will be judged by winning, and long-term by whether or not he can win a superbowl. His handling of the Cutler trade and anything else is all secondary to that.

Lebronco
10-08-2009, 12:03 PM
We didn't really have to give up Cutler to have Nolan come in and overhaul the defense, Cutler situation was just a bad call by Josh IMHO. Frankly this might sound even more convoluted but I think if Shanahan was still here and we had Nolan, then we would definitely be over the top, obviously josh/nolan was the new regime.

jmz313
10-08-2009, 12:04 PM
Its true, swap cutler for orton, we are better. period. its black and white. Thats how media makes opinions. When you start manufacturing variables, who knows what u get.

Br0nc0Buster
10-08-2009, 12:06 PM
Did he just imply that McDaniels might of destroyed a superbowl team?

Everyone was picking this team to be dog**** throughout the offseason, now all of a sudden we are a Cutler away from winning the Superbowl?

its pretty clear this offense has room to improve, this offense is in no way a finished product

Ill wait until the end of the year before claiming Cutler would fix all our problems

Mr. Elway
10-08-2009, 12:06 PM
Its true, swap cutler for orton, we are better. period. its black and white. Thats how media makes opinions. When you start manufacturing variables, who knows what u get.

Except we didn't swap Cutler for Orton. We swapped him for Orton, two firsts and a third.

bronco militia
10-08-2009, 12:08 PM
i'm not talking about "my bad" anymore. Just make the play!

qft

Natedog24
10-08-2009, 12:08 PM
Hmm this thread could get interesting...

Dr. Broncenstein
10-08-2009, 12:09 PM
Eh, not hating, just have to agree with him on this one right now.

Me too. Spilled milk and all...

Still, I'm thrilled with the defense and the overall direction of the team.

Pony Boy
10-08-2009, 12:10 PM
I love the 4-0 start as much as anybody, but it's like the elephant in the room you can't ignore it. We would all love the have the killer defense and still have, Culter, Marshall and Royal hanging 40 on our opponents....

jhat01
10-08-2009, 12:10 PM
Everyone here is now praising McDaniels team first "do your job" environment that he and the coaches have created. Rightfully so. I'm sure there are things that happened during that time that we'll never know about. Who knows, maybe Cutler would have bought in..maybe not. The team is trying to move forward with an identity that isn't about a gunslinger qb..An identity that is predicated upon the "team first" attitude. I for one am extremely happy in the direction that we're headed.

outdoor_miner
10-08-2009, 12:11 PM
He might be right (although that is definitely playing the "what if" game)... However, the Broncos aren't only trying to win right now. They are also trying to build a team that contends year in and year out. If McDaniels wins a Super Bowl in the next few years, Whitlock (and everyone else) will be wrong. Simple as that.

Tombstone RJ
10-08-2009, 12:12 PM
Here is Jason Whitlock's take on the Broncos fast start.......

7. It's comical watching everyone fall over themselves praising Josh McDaniels for Denver's 4-0 start when the Broncos' undefeated start is the No. 1 reason McDaniels should be ripped.

Put Jay Cutler under center and the Broncos are a serious Super Bowl threat rather than a nice, first-quarter-of-the-season story.

Kyle Orton ain't winning no Super Bowl. Not in this life. Not on this planet. McDaniels' mishandling of Cutler might've destroyed a Super Bowl team. That's the story. That mistake isn't water under the bridge. We don't forget about it because it happened in February. You can lose the Super Bowl in the offseason just as easily as you can by improperly using timeouts or calling the wrong plays.

Whitlock knows all about losing, after all, he covers the chefs.

Inkana7
10-08-2009, 12:12 PM
Cutler is a douche. That's a fact. I don't care how good he is, I like that his gay ass attitude is not on this team.

TheDave
10-08-2009, 12:13 PM
I've watched the game swith the same group of buddies for almost 15 years now...

Several times a game the same phrase is uttered.

"Heh... Imagine if we still had Cutler."

Man-Goblin
10-08-2009, 12:14 PM
Except we didn't swap Cutler for Orton. We swapped him for Orton, two firsts and a third.

Correct. Also, this article is operating under the silly assumption that Josh McDaniels was 100% at fault and Jay Cutler was 0% at fault.

Archer81
10-08-2009, 12:15 PM
Did the Broncos get to a superbowl with Cutler? Then how can you honestly say the removal of Cutler destroys a superbowl team?


:Broncos:

Pony Boy
10-08-2009, 12:16 PM
I've watched the game swith the same group of buddies for almost 15 years now...

Several times a game the same phrase is uttered.

"Heh... Imagine if we still had Cutler."

Imagine if we still had Elway:yayaya:

TheDave
10-08-2009, 12:17 PM
Imagine if we still had Elway:yayaya:

I don't think a 45 year old Elway would be that effective anymore... ;D

2KBack
10-08-2009, 12:19 PM
Wow, BOLWEN decides to trade Cutler= Denver is the worst team in the league, they will maybe win 3 games.

Denver looks pretty good, goes 4-0= okay, Denver could be good, but they would be superbowl bound with Cutler.

I swear, Denver could win the superbowl this season and we'd get posts about how it would have been by a greater margin if Cutler was still here.

People sure like to bitch a lot

Tombstone RJ
10-08-2009, 12:21 PM
It's all pure speculation on Whitlock's part. Does anyone know for sure that Cutler and the Broncos would be 4-0 at this point and time. Let me answer that for you: No.

If we are going to speculate, lets speculate on how many INTs Cutler would have thrown by now. Last time I checked, INTs lead to poor field postion for a defense and a momentum shift for the opposing team.

Just saying, it's dumb to speculate like that because no one can say for sure that the Broncos would be 4-0 with Cutler.

Yes, Cutler is supremely talented and yes, pound for pound, a more talented QB than Orton. That being said, you have to take all things into consideration like leadership skills, personality, ability to accept a new system and the ability to execute that new system with a minimum of mistakes.

I'm not blind to Orton's problems. He sometimes makes me pull my hair out. But I like his attitude and his leadership and that does go a long way on a football team that is focused on winning.

Br0nc0Buster
10-08-2009, 12:22 PM
Wow, BOLWEN decides to trade Cutler= Denver is the worst team in the league, they will maybe win 3 games.

Denver looks pretty good, goes 4-0= okay, Denver could be good, but they would be superbowl bound with Cutler.

I swear, Denver could win the superbowl this season and we'd get posts about how it would have been by a greater margin if Cutler was still here.

People sure like to b**** a lot

thats what it has come to
"We may be 4-0, but we are not winning the way I want to, waaaahhh wheres Cutler"

People have some selective memory going on, Cutler had some **** games last year, yet Orton gets bashed everytime he makes a mistake

Williams
10-08-2009, 12:23 PM
why doesn't anyone give orton any love at all? No picks!!

+1

s0phr0syne
10-08-2009, 12:26 PM
I'm not talking about "my bad" anymore. Just make the play!


Hahaha, I loved hearing that on the Mic'd up segment. Reminds me of many conversations that my dad had with me back in the teenage years...hell even now sometimes :)

OBF1
10-08-2009, 12:26 PM
I don't think a 45 year old Elway would be that effective anymore... ;D

Dave, you missed the past few years dude, Elway is going to be 50 next year LOL

jsco70
10-08-2009, 12:27 PM
Correct. Also, this article is operating under the silly assumption that Josh McDaniels was 100% at fault and Jay Cutler was 0% at fault.

My thoughts exactly.

DivineLegion
10-08-2009, 12:27 PM
+6 turnover differential turns into +1 with Cutler = 2 close wins for the broncos turns into 2 loses with Jay at QB. Just saying.

Jason in LA
10-08-2009, 12:27 PM
Damn, I can't believe I actually agree with something that Whitlock said. This is like the first time ever.

Even though I'm still a Shanahan guy, I'm really liking what McDaniels has done. He fixed the defense. That was the biggest problem with the team. I didn't like that Shanahan was fired, but if the stories are true that he didn't want to dump that sorry ass defensive coordinator that they had, then Shanahan kind of had to go.

I was getting over the coaching change, and seeing what McDaniels has done, I don't have a problem with it. This team had a lot of offensive talent, they just needed a defense to match. If McDaniels simply kept last year's offense in tact, with Cutler, and matched it with this year's defense I'd be screaming Super Bowl right now.

I questioned a lot of moves that were made during the offseason, but now the only one I really question is the Cutler trade. I like that Orton isn't turning over the ball, which is about the only good thing that I can say about the guy. But I'd say that with the defense only giving up like 6 points per game, if they had Cutler they'd rely less on him and his ints would be way down. And the Broncos would be scoring more points. At some point the offense is going to have to put some points up on the board.

Now if the D can continue to play at this level for the entire season, even against the top offenses in the league, then I'd say that they could have a shot to go really far, even with Orton at QB. But that's asking a lot from a defense. This team can't expect to just pull out wins in dramatic fashion all the time. At some point it is going to catch up with them.

I don't want to sound like a downer here, because I'm sure a lot of folks here will jump all over this, but these are legit concerns. How far can this team really go with Orton at QB?

The Joker
10-08-2009, 12:28 PM
We could win 3 Superbowls in the next 10 years and people would still bitch and say.

"Man, if we'd kept Cutler we would have been the most dominant team in NFL history. We'd have won at least seven, maye eight, Superbowls in the last ten years. McDaniels screwed the pooch trading Cutler."

jhns
10-08-2009, 12:28 PM
Correct. Also, this article is operating under the silly assumption that Josh McDaniels was 100% at fault and Jay Cutler was 0% at fault.

The organization is the only one at fault. Cutler cried but he can't get rid of himself. They should have treated him just like they treated Marshall. Luckily, it seems they have learned their lesson and figured out how to deal with players. You will never convince me Cutler did more to hurt this team than Marshall with the me fisrt attitudes.

I agree with this article. That being said, it doesn't really matter what people think if McD keeps winning. It doesn't matter how you win as long as you win. If QB ends up being our only big weakness, there will be no way to justify this trade. The other things we traded for have not been the key to us turning into a top defense. If that is the case, I just hope McD addresses the QB position and doesn't let his ego get in the way. I really just hope he can make Orton into Brady like everyone keeps saying. To me, we look like we are a complete team that doesn't have a QB.

OBF1
10-08-2009, 12:29 PM
I must be the only one that remembers the last 3 games of last season. This team was dog shiat last year. The McDainels era is totally different that last years product.

Let me get this straight again, McDaniels asked to be traded when Shanahan was fired... or was that Cutler, I can not remember.

TheDave
10-08-2009, 12:30 PM
We could win 3 Superbowls in the next 10 years and people would still b****



No they wouldn't.

The Joker
10-08-2009, 12:32 PM
No they wouldn't.

Have you read any of broncofan7's posts? :wiggle:

TonyR
10-08-2009, 12:33 PM
We had chocolate ice cream and sprinkles. McD got us vanilla ice cream, sprinkles, hot fudge, and whipped cream. Some people are left wishing for the chocolate ice cream back while forgetting the hot fudge and whipped cream we didn't have before.

DivineBronco
10-08-2009, 12:33 PM
it still amazes me that people are so blinded by Cutler's physical talent that they ignore the fact that he is a mental midget who is prone to pouting and yelling at teammates when things dont go his way. Those things don't really ever go away

TheDave
10-08-2009, 12:34 PM
Have you read any of broncofan7's posts? :wiggle:

OK... besides him. ;D

skpac1001
10-08-2009, 12:34 PM
I will admit Whitlock has a point if Cutler ends up with no more then 10 more turnovers this season then Orton. Otherwise, last I checked its the smarter, effecient qb's who don't turn the ball over who win in January. Jay is playing pretty good Orton style game manager football right now though, although not as good as Orton.

jhns
10-08-2009, 12:35 PM
We could win 3 Superbowls in the next 10 years and people would still b**** and say.

"Man, if we'd kept Cutler we would have been the most dominant team in NFL history. We'd have won at least seven, maye eight, Superbowls in the last ten years. McDaniels screwed the pooch trading Cutler."

This is how I validate all of my crying about Cutler. Even if we are good, we could have been better.

Dagmar
10-08-2009, 12:36 PM
14 pages coming.

c_lazy_r
10-08-2009, 12:36 PM
I love the 4-0 start as much as anybody, but it's like the elephant in the room you can't ignore it. We would all love the have the killer defense and still have, Culter, Marshall and Royal hanging 40 on our opponents....

Yea...like we did to sooooo many teams last year...and the year before...and, well you get my point.

TonyR
10-08-2009, 12:36 PM
This is how I validate all of my crying about Cutler. Even if we are good, we could have been better.

Or we could have Shanny, Slowik and Cutler back and be worse.

Lebronco
10-08-2009, 12:38 PM
The only real problem we had last year was our porous D, Cutler was constantly trying to make plays to get us out of holes that the D dug us into. We were steamrolled by Larry Johnson for 198 yds, I don't believe that could possibly happen this year and I give Mcdaniels/Nolan plenty of credit for it. Cutler+34D=Superbowl Contenders.

Man-Goblin
10-08-2009, 12:39 PM
This is how I validate all of my crying about Cutler. Even if we are good, we could have been better.

I'm actually surprised that those that predicted catastophe for this franchise have taken this long to adopt this battle cry. Finally, the negative Nellies have found their new snake charmer, and his name is Jason Whitlock.

TheReverend
10-08-2009, 12:40 PM
We had chocolate ice cream and sprinkles. McD got us vanilla ice cream, sprinkles, hot fudge, and whipped cream. Some people are left wishing for the chocolate ice cream back while forgetting the hot fudge and whipped cream we didn't have before.

Did you make this analogy with a straight face?

jhns
10-08-2009, 12:40 PM
Or we could have Shanny, Slowik and Cutler back and be worse.

My argument is not for Shanny to be back. I loved our offseason up to the point of Cutler being traded. Just so that is clear.

Irish Stout
10-08-2009, 12:42 PM
Cutler is a giant vagina faced baby.

Why do people assume we could have this same team and still have Cutler?
Why do people assume that even though Chicago has lost a game because of Cutler and the Broncos have not lost a game because of Orton that Cutler would make us so much better?
Whats it going to take for people to get over this Cutler fixation?

If "ifs" and "buts" were candy and nuts we'd all have a very merry Christmas, but they're not and we're 4-0 and Whitlock is an idiot.

jhat01
10-08-2009, 12:42 PM
Cutler and Orton have very similar stat lines so far. I know speculation is fun, but the bottom line is that we couldn't be doing any better with Cutler. The best we could be is still 4-0. I think you're going to see these dudes play very similar football for the rest of the season. Both will end up with high 80's low 90's ratings. Cutler is a more gifted qb physically, that's it.

jhns
10-08-2009, 12:42 PM
I'm actually surprised that those that predicted catastophe for this franchise have taken this long to adopt this battle cry. Finally, the negative Nellies have found their new snake charmer, and his name is Jason Whitlock.

Actually I have made this argument a few times already, and it started weeks ago. So it really isn't "finally".

Miss I.
10-08-2009, 12:44 PM
1. Jason Whitlock is a mindless douchebag.
2. Would it have been interesting to have seen our team with Jay under center with the current offense and defense that McDaniels and Nolan have built, you betcha.
3. Would it have led to a superbowl, who the hell knows, but it seems unlikely in either regard. Peyton Manning only has one ring and that guy has had a good offense and mediocre defense for years and is heads and shoulders above Cutler as a QB so a superbowl for us? On the other hand, the NYG have basically a game manager with Eli Manning (whatever you want to say, he's not exactly Peyton in terms of skill or arm strength) and an awesome defense and managed to unseat the unstoppable NE Patriots (with Tom Terrific - super QB).
4. It would also be fascinating to see Josh coach Tom Brady in Denver, guess what? Not gonna happen either.
5. Jay cried his way out of Denver as much as the coach AND the owner didn't finesse the situation well enough. So ****ing sick of this crap.
6. Any Given Sunday...so let it go, Jay is gone and Jason Whitlock is a moron.


I love you guys, but enjoy the ride while it lasts...4 and 0 is nice and Josh is doing a pretty decent job so far.

TonyR
10-08-2009, 12:44 PM
I'm actually surprised that those that predicted catastophe for this franchise have taken this long to adopt this battle cry.

Original hater argument: McD sucks, we're doomed, the franchise has been set back at least 10 years, the defense hasn't been addressed, we'll be lucky to win 3 games, we gave up a top 5 draft pick, total fail.

New hater argument: Maybe we've improved significantly but we could've been Super Bowl contenders if we didn't get rid of Jay Cutler.

In other words, wrong about almost everything but clinging to the one thing they may have been right about.

Bronco X
10-08-2009, 12:45 PM
The article posits the drama-queenish statement that McDaniels has destroyed a Super Bowl team. A team that, in previous seasons had one of the worst defenses in history, so much so that even the Golden Boy QB couldn't win. So he comes in and fixes, in an almost miraculous fashion, almost all the problems the team has except for the one about keeping said Golden Boy QBs ego properly inflated, and he is getting ripped for destroying a Super Bowl team without getting credit for creating the team in one off season. Love that logic.

HAT
10-08-2009, 12:46 PM
I love the 4-0 start as much as anybody, but it's like the elephant in the room you can't ignore it. We would all love the have the killer defense and still have, Culter

No, we "all" wouldn't.

TonyR
10-08-2009, 12:46 PM
Did you make this analogy with a straight face?

No, just in the mood for ice cream I guess. I thought it was a decent analogy. No? Why not?

ColoradoDarin
10-08-2009, 12:47 PM
I don't get how anyone thinks we'd even be 4-0 with Cutler. He gave Green Bay that first game, and the Bengals would have blown us out with his 4 picks.

I still find it ironic that the Bears have turned Cutler into a dink and dunker the last 3 games to limit his "screw it, I'm throwing into triple coverage" throws and they've won with that style. :)

TheReverend
10-08-2009, 12:51 PM
No, just in the mood for ice cream I guess. I thought it was a decent analogy. No? Why not?

I think its more of a team inversion than anything.

Last year, great offense, horrid D

This year, mediocre offense, great D

I dunno, the ice cream analogy didn't really hit that home for me.

Greatspirits
10-08-2009, 12:52 PM
He's just jealous because his Queefs we're supposed to be better than the Bronx this year and they suck. Even though he does bash the Queefs quite a bit!

Mr.Meanie
10-08-2009, 12:53 PM
I'm not talking about "my bad" anymore. Just make the play!

Does anyone honestly believe Cutler would have sat there and listened to that kind of talk from McD? Cutler has been coddled his entire career, and there's no way some rookie coach could come in there and talk to the face of the franchise like that. You don't see Peyton or Brady being talked to like that, right?

That's why this entire conversation is stupid. If the team leader wasn't going to buy in or respect the coach, how do you get all the rookies and FA's to buy in? This could be a totally different team with that kind of attitude.

Props to McD for recognizing how critical attitude is to success from the very beginning.

Meck77
10-08-2009, 12:53 PM
Go Orton...Go Broncos...

outdoor_miner
10-08-2009, 12:53 PM
If QB ends up being our only big weakness, there will be no way to justify this trade. The other things we traded for have not been the key to us turning into a top defense.

I just don't agree (aside from the whole "what if" premise)...

First - It is not only about this year. It is about the next 5 . So, even if Denver doesn't win the Super Bowl this year, we will still need to wait and see. Early returns will be in after this year (either way), but this is still a trade that affects both franchises long-term.

Second - depth creates competition. There was a lot of talk this offseason about Denver's lack of depth, and how it not only pops up in injuries, but in pushing the starters to be better. Our camp was physical with people stepping up left and right. Do Goodman and JMFW (who played very well against Dallas) step up without Smith pushing him? Are Doom and Haggan playing as well without Ayers back there? The defense seems to be strong top to bottom, and that is a significant change that was helped by the Cutler trade.

jhns
10-08-2009, 12:53 PM
I don't get how anyone thinks we'd even be 4-0 with Cutler. He gave Green Bay that first game, and the Bengals would have blown us out with his 4 picks.

I still find it ironic that the Bears have turned Cutler into a dink and dunker the last 3 games to limit his "screw it, I'm throwing into triple coverage" throws and they've won with that style. :)

So wouldn't it be logical to say that Cutler can learn and become more conservative if coached and not expected to do everything on his own? I would say so. I don't think he would be taking the same risks as last year after he learns he finally has a team around him. That is exactly what is happening in Chicago now.

Also, people keep talking about last years collapse like the players just stopped performing. All of the starting LBs, a starting d-lineman, a starting safety, our best corner, a TE, a receiver, and 7 RBs getting injured couldn't have had anything to do with it....

Mr. Elway
10-08-2009, 12:53 PM
This is also conjecture at this point but I see similarities between Cutler and Plummer mentally. I don't know that Cutler has the disposition to overcome his own weaknesses. Can he handle big games under pressure? He folded at the end of last season, and he folded in the opener this year when everyone was watching. The temper tantrums that some defensive players can coax him into also make me wonder. Those type of things are personality, not coaching, and people don't tend to change. Maybe he can overcome those things and succeed in the playoffs, maybe not.

I am not personally rooting against the guy, but I think there are reasons to doubt his ability to be a top 5 QB, and that's what we are talking about here.

Taco John
10-08-2009, 12:56 PM
Why do people assume we could have this same team and still have Cutler?



Last year, we started 4-1.

Lebronco
10-08-2009, 12:56 PM
I predict the Kyle Orton experiment ends this year with a 1st round playoff loss, we then move up via trade in the draft and pickup Colt Mcoy who starts after an Orton lackluster 3 games into the 2010 season.

Irish Stout
10-08-2009, 12:57 PM
Last year, we started 4-1.

That in no way answers my question. We also gave up 29 points a game in those first 5 starts.

tsiguy96
10-08-2009, 12:58 PM
It's all pure speculation on Whitlock's part. Does anyone know for sure that Cutler and the Broncos would be 4-0 at this point and time. Let me answer that for you: No.

If we are going to speculate, lets speculate on how many INTs Cutler would have thrown by now. Last time I checked, INTs lead to poor field postion for a defense and a momentum shift for the opposing team.

Just saying, it's dumb to speculate like that because no one can say for sure that the Broncos would be 4-0 with Cutler.

Yes, Cutler is supremely talented and yes, pound for pound, a more talented QB than Orton. That being said, you have to take all things into consideration like leadership skills, personality, ability to accept a new system and the ability to execute that new system with a minimum of mistakes.

I'm not blind to Orton's problems. He sometimes makes me pull my hair out. But I like his attitude and his leadership and that does go a long way on a football team that is focused on winning.

our extreme lack of turnovers is a big reason we are 4-0, we cannot gaurantee that would be the case with cutler under center. not saying we are better without him, but given the new direction and coaching style (ya know, accountability) he may not be the ideal QB for THIS team anymore.

jhns
10-08-2009, 12:59 PM
I just don't agree (aside from the whole "what if" premise)...

First - It is not only about this year. It is about the next 5 . So, even if Denver doesn't win the Super Bowl this year, we will still need to wait and see. Early returns will be in after this year (either way), but this is still a trade that affects both franchises long-term.

Second - depth creates competition. There was a lot of talk this offseason about Denver's lack of depth, and how it not only pops up in injuries, but in pushing the starters to be better. Our camp was physical with people stepping up left and right. Do Goodman and JMFW (who played very well against Dallas) step up without Smith pushing him? Are Doom and Haggan playing as well without Ayers back there? The defense seems to be strong top to bottom, and that is a significant change that was helped by the Cutler trade.

I agree with the long term stuff. I have said the same thing. It is still fun to speculate now though.

As for the other stuff, you may be right. As I said, none of this will matter if we keep winning. Just because I still will complain about Cutler doesn't mean I don't like the direction of the team. I love the defense and I doubt we have it without McDaniels.

Pony Boy
10-08-2009, 12:59 PM
Yea...like we did to sooooo many teams last year...and the year before...and, well you get my point.

My point was there will always be the "what if", and had those guys stayed together with a year under their belt, the potential of putting up 40 a game would be.... well you get my point ............

Peoples Champ
10-08-2009, 01:00 PM
this guy is a dbag

Peoples Champ
10-08-2009, 01:01 PM
+6 turnover differential turns into +1 with Cutler = 2 close wins for the broncos turns into 2 loses with Jay at QB. Just saying.


I was thinking this too.

BroncoMan4ever
10-08-2009, 01:03 PM
who cares. **** Cutler he is in Chicago, and it doesn't matter anymore.

skpac1001
10-08-2009, 01:03 PM
The only real problem we had last year was our porous D, Cutler was constantly trying to make plays to get us out of holes that the D dug us into. We were steamrolled by Larry Johnson for 198 yds, I don't believe that could possibly happen this year and I give Mcdaniels/Nolan plenty of credit for it. Cutler+34D=Superbowl Contenders.

Cutler and Co couldn't score more then our current offense does against good defenses (Pats, Bucs, Panthers) last year, so what would be the difference? I mean besides turnovers favoring this years O.

USMCBladerunner
10-08-2009, 01:07 PM
The argument is incredibly flawed, Orton is no less a QB than Dilfer or Johnson, so precedent says the assertion is false. Two, there are way too many second and third order effects to be able to imagine Cutler in Denver today. Things don't just happen in the abstract. We might as well imagine Cutler's arm magically appearing on Orton's body...that would make a stronger pretend quarterback to boot. It's all make believe.

The only thing that matters is results. Whether with or without Orton, if Denver wins championships, then all is well. Same same in Chicago. It doesn't matter how you get there. If Denver moves on from Orton and finds another QB to with championships with, it still doesn't mean that this was a "ruined" SB team. Cutler, with his magical arm and his beetus, attitude, and decision making is gone. Orton, Ayers, Smith, and Quinn are here. Time will tell if this was a good move or not, but you don't get to swap Orton with Cutler at this point and act like you know something Bowlen and McDaniels don't. At least you don't get to be right when you do.

2KBack
10-08-2009, 01:07 PM
The season is still pretty damn young. It was week four last season when the super offense went on a 5 game streak of scoring less than 20 points.

broncofan7
10-08-2009, 01:09 PM
Here is Jason Whitlock's take on the Broncos fast start.......

7. It's comical watching everyone fall over themselves praising Josh McDaniels for Denver's 4-0 start when the Broncos' undefeated start is the No. 1 reason McDaniels should be ripped.

Put Jay Cutler under center and the Broncos are a serious Super Bowl threat rather than a nice, first-quarter-of-the-season story.

Kyle Orton ain't winning no Super Bowl. Not in this life. Not on this planet. McDaniels' mishandling of Cutler might've destroyed a Super Bowl team. That's the story. That mistake isn't water under the bridge. We don't forget about it because it happened in February. You can lose the Super Bowl in the offseason just as easily as you can by improperly using timeouts or calling the wrong plays.

Ohh--that hurts.........

Old Dude
10-08-2009, 01:10 PM
Why doesn't anyone give Orton any love at all? No picks!!

http://www.nfl.com/news/story?id=09000d5d8133a519&template=with-video-with-comments&confirm=true

Man-Goblin
10-08-2009, 01:11 PM
The season is still pretty damn young. It was week four last season when the super offense went on a 5 game steak of scoring less than 20 points.

You mean the greatest offense ever to finish 16th in scoring? That offense?

kamakazi_kal
10-08-2009, 01:13 PM
Cutler was on "inside the NFL" on HBO this week and hearing him makes me really think people's poor opinion of him is based on nothing but their personal thoughts of the situation.

He addressed arm strength, Rivers and the rest. Didn't come across as arrogant or the vilan that some make him to be.

I liked the guy as our QB and I still think we should have kept him and would be a better team with him. 4 games or 4 seasons won't change that unless a superbowl arrives in Denver.

Even with the great start I don't like Orton long term.

TheReverend
10-08-2009, 01:14 PM
The season is still pretty damn young. It was week four last season when the super offense went on a 5 game steak of scoring less than 20 points.

I want a 5 game steak. Sounds delicious

2KBack
10-08-2009, 01:16 PM
You mean the greatest offense ever to finish 16th in scoring? That offense?

Yeah, the irreplaceable offense that struck fear into the Patriots last season.

jhat01
10-08-2009, 01:17 PM
Ohh--that hurts.........

Hurts whom? moron. I know you were hoping he would say that Orton needs to be benched, but nope..still just you and dragster all alone on fag island.

Williams
10-08-2009, 01:19 PM
At this point its pretty easy to say Orton + Ayers > Cutler. Throw in (an obviously still developing) Richard Quinn and a #1 in next year's draft and you've got an all out pillage.

Thanks Chicago! :thumbs:

Mr. Elway
10-08-2009, 01:24 PM
The argument is incredibly flawed, Orton is no less a QB than Dilfer or Johnson, so precedent says the assertion is false. Two, there are way too many second and third order effects to be able to imagine Cutler in Denver today. Things don't just happen in the abstract. We might as well imagine Cutler's arm magically appearing on Orton's body...that would make a stronger pretend quarterback to boot. It's all make believe.

The only thing that matters is results. Whether with or without Orton, if Denver wins championships, then all is well. Same same in Chicago. It doesn't matter how you get there. If Denver moves on from Orton and finds another QB to with championships with, it still doesn't mean that this was a "ruined" SB team. Cutler, with his magical arm and his beetus, attitude, and decision making is gone. Orton, Ayers, Smith, and Quinn are here. Time will tell if this was a good move or not, but you don't get to swap Orton with Cutler at this point and act like you know something Bowlen and McDaniels don't. At least you don't get to be right when you do.

Exactly. You said it much better than me but I completely agree.

bpc
10-08-2009, 01:27 PM
If this defense keeps playing well, we can do whatever they allow us to do.

Granted, I'm a huge Cutler fan and I definitely think our offense would be better with Jay than without him. Orton has done a solid job and is a good game manager. I doubt we ever see fireworks from him though.

jhns
10-08-2009, 01:28 PM
You mean the greatest offense ever to finish 16th in scoring? That offense?

That is a team stat. The offense was made up of rookie-third year players. We had a ton of injuries. While being extremely young and injured, that offense was expected to carry this franchises worst ever defense. Before you say they just put the defense in bad positions, I have a few more stats. Our defense saw the fewest drives in the league. Our offense had the 32nd ranked starting field position. With an average special teams (missed FGs really hurt your team point rankings as much as our lack of defensive and special teams TDs) the offense still managed to make up 16 positions to give the defense the 16th best starting field position.

The thing that makes me sad about seeing Cutler go is how young the offense was. They were all going to grow together and would have been one of the best offenses in the league for a long time.

WolfpackGuy
10-08-2009, 01:31 PM
You'd have to say Whitlock's right.
I really don't think the offense would be taking entire halves off with Cutler.

USMCBladerunner
10-08-2009, 01:32 PM
Cutler was on "inside the NFL" on HBO this week and hearing him makes me really think people's poor opinion of him is based on nothing but their personal thoughts of the situation.

He addressed arm strength, Rivers and the rest. Didn't come across as arrogant or the vilan that some make him to be.

I liked the guy as our QB and I still think we should have kept him and would be a better team with him. 4 games or 4 seasons won't change that unless a superbowl arrives in Denver.

Even with the great start I don't like Orton long term.

Cutler's never really interviewed that badly, boringly, maybe, but not so bad. But his passive aggressive gig this offseason outed him as the prima donna he is. Whether he stays that way? Who knows? But his "I never really wanted this to happen" bit was not only a lie, but was pure chicken**** to boot.

Popps
10-08-2009, 01:32 PM
Here is Jason Whitlock's take on the Broncos fast start.......

7. It's comical watching everyone fall over themselves praising Josh McDaniels for Denver's 4-0 start when the Broncos' undefeated start is the No. 1 reason McDaniels should be ripped.

I guess Jason missed Jay crapping down his leg when the season was on the line last season. I wonder if he say Jay poop himself in the opening game this year against a divisional rival in a big game?

It boils down to this... some people can separate fantasy football from reality, and some can't. Some people see a big arm and assume that means the guy has the make-up of a SB winning QB.

Anyone who's watched the game long enough knows that physical ability is only half the battle at the QB position.

But, a lot of people wanted to be right about this whole situation and turned out wrong. So, just like this board... some people will man-up and admit it, and some are going to try to make up pretend scenarios and excuses.

There's absolutely NO evidence that Jay Cutler would make this team any better. Judging by his record in college and the pros... he's a loser. When that changes... we can talk about how he'd make a difference for a team. Until then, he's a fancy-armed loser.

underrated29
10-08-2009, 01:34 PM
I bet we beat the patriots. I dont care who our Qb is as long as we win.


I want Knowshon to carve the pats like a 50lb pumpkin. SLice those effers up!

Bronco X
10-08-2009, 01:36 PM
Cutler was on "inside the NFL" on HBO this week and hearing him makes me really think people's poor opinion of him is based on nothing but their personal thoughts of the situation.

People's poor opinion of him is based on how he conducted himself in that situation. You don't need great character to look good in an interview, and how a person behaves when there is some adversity shows true colors.

jhns
10-08-2009, 01:36 PM
Cutler's never really interviewed that badly, boringly, maybe, but not so bad. But his passive aggressive gig this offseason outed him as the prima donna he is. Whether he stays that way? Who knows? But his "I never really wanted this to happen" bit was not only a lie, but was pure chicken**** to boot.

How was it a lie or chicken****? He got mad about them trying to trade him because he wanted to be traded? Does that really make sense? I will agree that he has an attitude problem but I don't get your example.

24champ
10-08-2009, 01:45 PM
I am going to have to agree with Whitlock on this one.

Broncos were 20-3 with Jay Cutler when the defense held the opponents to less than 20 points.

UberBroncoMan
10-08-2009, 01:49 PM
Can't see how anyone can argue against it. Outside of a pathetic game 1 look what Cutler has done in Chicago thus far. 7 TD's and 1 TD rushing in the last 3 games.... a steady 70%+ completion rate.

On top of this Cutler already knew our receivers like the back of his hand. Orton and the core are STILL trying to get on the same page.

Orton has done great not turning the ball over, but with Cutler under center and him actually taking in the offense I'd see us as a serious Super Bowl threat.

Our offense thus far has been pathetic. Hopefully it improves.

UberBroncoMan
10-08-2009, 01:50 PM
I am going to have to agree with Whitlock on this one.

Broncos were 20-3 with Jay Cutler when the defense held the opponents to less than 20 points.

Completely nailed it.

leon
10-08-2009, 01:51 PM
Who cares about cutler!! Orton is our quarterback!! Shanny defense sucked and he's not a teacher like mc'daniels is!! Let's stick to the facts!!

tsiguy96
10-08-2009, 01:53 PM
Completely nailed it.

most QBs in the NFL have similar stats. keep talking your silliness though, its not changing the fact that mcdaniels has done a great, great job in denver so far.

UberBroncoMan
10-08-2009, 01:56 PM
most QBs in the NFL have similar stats. keep talking your silliness though, its not changing the fact that mcdaniels has done a great, great job in denver so far.

I don't think anyone here is saying McDaniels has done a bad job in Denver thus far. I certainly haven't. This is merely about "would we be better with Cutler over Orton" which would be a logical yes.

i4jelway7
10-08-2009, 02:02 PM
I think the real question here should be

Would the Bears be 3-1 with Orton under center?

UberBroncoMan
10-08-2009, 02:04 PM
I think the real question here should be

Would the Bears be 3-1 with Orton under center?

I honestly think with Orton the Bear's beat Green Bay and Detroit, but lose to Seattle and Pitt.

24champ
10-08-2009, 02:04 PM
most QBs in the NFL have similar stats.

Maybe, but not all QBs are on the same talent level. Once you get to the playoffs, you will see how far your QB gets you.

Broncomutt
10-08-2009, 02:06 PM
Well Cutler single handedly lost game 1 to a division rival, so all things being equal, that makes us 3-1 right now if he stays our QB.

As a "Cutler Hater" I have to admit he has played well since then. But then again, he started fast last year as well only to be inconsistent down the stretch.

Maybe Lovie is accomplishing Shanny never could though. Bringing maturity to an immature player. In which case Cutler could prove to be quite dangerous. Still not sold on that quite yet.

Merlin
10-08-2009, 02:06 PM
This is also conjecture at this point but I see similarities between Cutler and Plummer mentally. I don't know that Cutler has the disposition to overcome his own weaknesses. Can he handle big games under pressure? He folded at the end of last season, and he folded in the opener this year when everyone was watching.
Actually, he has had only one bad half[ of a game in the first quarter of the season. And despite the poor start, he gave the team a lead in his second to last possession and the defense pooched it. In the next possession the rookie WR gave up on the route which led to an interception ending the game. So even in his worst game, with NO running game, No protection, and mediocre WR, he played much better than Orton (in the second half) to bring the team back. In the following 3 games, he has taken excellent care of the ball, beat some good teams, while being under tremendous pressure because of the lack of protection and running game (although, Forte did look a little healthier in the last game; i.e. a couple of good runs).

Despite the hate, Cutler does not have a history of folding under pressure, quite the opposite. In a number of games he brought the Broncos back just to see the defense give up the game. He had excellent 4th quarter and 3rd down stats last year. And this yr, without the help of immaculate deflections and pinball WRs, Cutler has managed to post excellent numbers in the 4th qtr, leading to a couple of come from behind wins.

Was Cutler's reaction to McD's idiocy over the top? Of course it was, but he is only 26, and like all top athletes has an exaggerated sense of worth. McD TOTALLY screwed-up his handling of Cutler. On the plus side, he does not appear to be like other idiot coaches, and learns from his mistakes. His handling BM had some hiccups but has been impressive overall.

Cutler handled the McD event poorly, but he was and is not a wuss. He constantly puts his body in danger for the benefit of the team. The yr he went through the undiagnosed diabetes debacle no one heard a complaint from the man, despite his body's mass disappearing right in front of everyone's eyes. When BM screwed up last yr it was Cutler that took him in and made sure he was up to date on the offense, and when Brandon joined the team he was ready. There is a reason Champ was high on Cutler, like many other people who are experts in QB play. But haters will continue to just dismiss the facts. Why let facts get in the way of a good fantasy.

UberBroncoMan
10-08-2009, 02:07 PM
Maybe, but not all QBs are on the same talent level. Once you get to the playoffs, you will see how far your QB gets you.

Especially the Super Bowl where teams have 2 weeks to game plan your QB... and if your QB can't stretch the field or run a high octane offense you better pray you have a historically amazing defense backing him up (kind of like what Baltimore did for Dilfer).

Look at the past Super Bowl wins outside of Dilfer and it's nothing but Franchise /signed long term QB's.

jhns
10-08-2009, 02:09 PM
I think the real question here should be

Would the Bears be 3-1 with Orton under center?

Of course they would be because they wouldn't have all the defensive injuries. That means their defense would still be doing all the work and Orton could be a game manager. With their injuries this year and our long list of injuries last year, I think it is pretty obvious that Cutler makes his defense worse with all those extremely hard passes injuring teammates in practice every year. His arm is stronger than Elways after all.

broncocalijohn
10-08-2009, 02:14 PM
Maybe Whitlock didnt finsh his thoughts. Let me put what I think he meant to say (even though I might not entirely agree with it)..."With Cutler in as QB, even he couldnt screw up the potential of this team that the defense gives him. He could blow up in the red zone or throw a critical pick and somehow still have enough to win it all."

Merlin
10-08-2009, 02:18 PM
I guess Jason missed Jay crapping down his leg when the season was on the line last season. I wonder if he say Jay poop himself in the opening game this year against a divisional rival in a big game?
Yeah, like he did last yr against the Raiders (despite missing his primary WR and having to depend in a rookie, that Orton can't find this yr) and what appeared to be the powerhouse SD. On fourth down and the game on the line Cutler did look scared. And on that 2 point conversion to win or lose, he was down right pathetic he was chocking so hard.

As to this yr's first game, did you watch it? He stunk in the first half, and has been playing great ever since. In fact as I stated in the post above, despite stinking it up in the first half, and no protection, mediocre, wrs and no running game, he gave the team the lead, but the D failed to protect it. In the last possession he made a good conservative pass, and the rookie WR gave up on the route, interception game over (the previous 3 interceptions were on Cutler, but not the last). Orton would have been turned into a pancake in those games with his lack of mobility, and would have lost 3 of the 4 games. In Cutler's worse game, he did a far better job to bring back the team than Orton did in the first game (who relied on an immaculate reception).

The hate some of you display makes your neurons just shut down.

broncocalijohn
10-08-2009, 02:21 PM
I am going to have to agree with Whitlock on this one.

Broncos were 20-3 with Jay Cutler when the defense held the opponents to less than 20 points.

most teams that are offensive oriented are going to win most of their games if the defense holds the other team to 20 points. Orton is 4 and 0 with that same stat. It is pretty meaningless but it shows that Cutler can outgun a team if he had a defense. I see what McDaniels has done with this team and even losing Cutler, I am not changing anything for this start and potential powerhouse that we used to have. I remember 77 and even 13 years ago had a great D. We got to the Super Bowl with a good, not great QB. If we make the playoffs, then we are stepping in the right direction that I didnt see coming with Shanny and the team being assembled for the 09 season.
It is funny how Whitlock changes to that this could have been a SB team after 4 weeks but can anyone link what he thought our team would be before the season even started? He is now drawing a line back after his first mistake. He is the joke, not McDaniels.

baja
10-08-2009, 02:21 PM
Here is Jason Whitlock's take on the Broncos fast start.......

7. It's comical watching everyone fall over themselves praising Josh McDaniels for Denver's 4-0 start when the Broncos' undefeated start is the No. 1 reason McDaniels should be ripped.

Put Jay Cutler under center and the Broncos are a serious Super Bowl threat rather than a nice, first-quarter-of-the-season story.

Kyle Orton ain't winning no Super Bowl. Not in this life. Not on this planet. McDaniels' mishandling of Cutler might've destroyed a Super Bowl team. That's the story. That mistake isn't water under the bridge. We don't forget about it because it happened in February. You can lose the Super Bowl in the offseason just as easily as you can by improperly using timeouts or calling the wrong plays.

I was wondering where So Cal went, clearly he has become a ghost writer for Whitlock.

TexanBob
10-08-2009, 02:23 PM
We'll never know if this team would be SB bound with Cutler.

What we do know is that we wouldn't have had Moreno and we'd be less likely to have traded for Antonio Smith. We still would have Ayers because that was our pick.

If Cutler had become a cute, cuddly compliant quarterback under the tutilage of McDaniels, he indeed might have been a great QB in this system - or he made have brooded just like Marshall did or possibly led a clubhouse insurrection. We don't know.

I do think the whole affair was handled badly (except the trade - we fleeced the Bears) and all parties deserve part of the blame for that. In the end, I don't think McDaniels wants any players that might challenge his authority and if it was necessary to get Cutler out of town in order to accomplish that, better it had been done last spring that be a festering sore now.

underrated29
10-08-2009, 02:26 PM
Yes i am a cutler fan. yes i am an orton fan. I dont understand the haters at all.

But here are some funny things about the haters.

All we heard all offseason was jay will run for his life, throw all these pick 6s and never score in the redzone.


This year--hmm dont see much of that. As for us.

We are 17th in redzone scoring this year. Last year?- 17th? Boy i bet Jay cutlers ill timed ints and his bad ways are still hanging on the team right. Afterall we are rated the exact same for scoring as last year.

EXCEPT WE HAVE SCORED LESS THIS YEAR THAN LAST YEAR!



It makes no sense how people can still hate and use that as an arguement. I dont care because i like ORton and I like the broncos. And as much as i like jay and know he is a good QB- their fate controls our pick destiny. So i want them to lose. But we are/were better with Jay.

How many games did we have where Jay was our QB and we scored less than 10 pts? ( i know of one against sd, but we also went for the td on 1st and goal from the 1, when we could have kicked the FG for pots)

I only ask because that is the most amount of pts scored against us so far. I think Jay and the broncos could put up more than 10 easily.


And not to hate on Orton, because i like him. But in the dallas game. The two passes that he missed wide to Jabar, jay might have made, or atleast is better at.

outdoor_miner
10-08-2009, 02:26 PM
This is merely about "would we be better with Cutler over Orton" which would be a logical yes.

No - the question is "would we be better with Cutler over Orton, Smith, Ayers, and Quinn" which would be a logical "I'm not sure".

I just don't think this is that simple. I believe that games like Oakland and Cleveland, we probably win by a wider margin than we did if we had Jay. However, with close games (where opposing defenses are putting a lot of pressure on us and getting a lot of stops) does Cutler get frustrated and try to force one in at the wrong time? Does he make a critical mistake in a 10-10 defensive battle in the fourth quarter that loses us the game? I think those are legitimate questions that we will never know the answer to.

There is no way that I think that Orton is a more talented QB than Jay. However, I do think there are situations where Cutler could have hurt us.

Merlin
10-08-2009, 02:26 PM
I honestly think with Orton the Bear's beat Green Bay and Detroit, but lose to Seattle and Pitt.
They also lose to GB. Orton does not have the mobility to escape the defense. They were attacking Cutler from a number of different positions. It does not excuse Cutler's first half of that game, but Orton would have never accomplished anything. Also remember last yr he had a healthy Forte he was the focus of the defenses. Thus far Forte has only had a couple of good runs and it was in the last game, the Detroit game. And even though I give Orton the win in that game I'm not so sure that would be the case because they score 21 pts in the first half and Cutler had to keep up. Orton in his best day could not keep up with that kind of production, especially with a RB who is only now finding his legs.

i4jelway7
10-08-2009, 02:35 PM
They also lose to GB. Orton does not have the mobility to escape the defense. They were attacking Cutler from a number of different positions. It does not excuse Cutler's first half of that game, but Orton would have never accomplished anything. Also remember last yr he had a healthy Forte he was the focus of the defenses. Thus far Forte has only had a couple of good runs and it was in the last game, the Detroit game. And even though I give Orton the win in that game I'm not so sure that would be the case because they score 21 pts in the first half and Cutler had to keep up. Orton in his best day could not keep up with that kind of production, especially with a RB who is only now finding his legs.

the bears have a terrible Oline and no way Orton makes the plays Quitler has while on the run

Rock Chalk
10-08-2009, 02:37 PM
the bears have a terrible Oline and no way Orton makes the plays Quitler has while on the run

Fair enough.

But the Bears are two stupid kickers away from being 1-3. You know it, I know it, everyone knows it, thats why the Bears are not getting a lot of love in the national media.

Merlin
10-08-2009, 02:37 PM
However, with close games (where opposing defenses are putting a lot of pressure on us and getting a lot of stops) does Cutler get frustrated and try to force one in at the wrong time? Does he make a critical mistake in a 10-10 defensive battle in the fourth quarter that loses us the game? I think those are legitimate questions that we will never know the answer to.
All you have to do is look at his games with the Bears. He had one bad first half, since then he has taken excellent care of the ball, despite the Bears defense stinking it up in the first half of every game, and he has brought the team back in two of the games to win the last Qtr, and even in the game he stunk, he got his act together in the second half and gave the team the lead in the last couple of minutes of the game, but they surrendered a TD, and the youth in Cutler's WR core screwed up in the last play, otherwise he probably brings them back like he did in 2 of the 4 games this season. Cutler demeanor has never been one of a player who gets frustrated, quite the opposite, he is very even keeled. The problem was he did not understand the value of conservative play, and the idiot OC kept on playing Madden football instead of managing the game and teaching Cutler the importance of such play.

baja
10-08-2009, 02:38 PM
If McD destroyed a SB team it would be because he built a SB team first cause he sure didn't inherit one.

i4jelway7
10-08-2009, 02:40 PM
Fair enough.

But the Bears are two stupid kickers away from being 1-3. You know it, I know it, everyone knows it, thats why the Bears are not getting a lot of love in the national media.

agreed :thumbsup:

Merlin
10-08-2009, 02:42 PM
But the Bears are two stupid kickers away from being 1-3.
Probably true (one cannot know how they change their offense if the kickers make the earlier kicks). However, without Cutler's play, the Bears are never in the position to win when the two stupid kickers miss. So credit must be given in that case.

broncocalijohn
10-08-2009, 02:44 PM
blasphemy

I quit reading after that

thank you for putting it out of text and not reading correctly. Unless you think Morton was a great QB, then you are correct. Maybe you should read the whole post that ties the above quote with the 77 team, which Elway was in High School at the time.

Merlin
10-08-2009, 02:44 PM
If McD destroyed a SB team it would be because he built a SB team first cause he sure didn't inherit one.
It is also hard to know how that learning experience has helped McD become a better coach. Is a nice fantasy, but one never knows...

Rock Chalk
10-08-2009, 02:45 PM
Probably true (one cannot know how they change their offense if the kickers make the earlier kicks). However, without Cutler's play, the Bears are never in the position to win when the two stupid kickers miss. So credit must be given in that case.

I disagree with that. You sound as if ONLY Cutler could make the plays to get the Bears where they are when in fact, many QBs in the league can make those plays, and many of those QBs could make even smarter players.

Cutler's problem, from what I can see, is he STILL thinks he is a one gang show. Its all gotta be on him. That's somewhat admirable that he wants to take on the responsibility but he is not one of those rare NFL players that has that ability. Of all of Cutler's talents, taking a game on his shoulders and bearing the load is not one of them.

He would do well to just keep playing like he has been, but how long do you think that is going to last? With his mindset, with his attitude?

I wish teh Bears nothing but ill will this year but after that I could give a **** what happens to them.

i4jelway7
10-08-2009, 02:48 PM
thank you for putting it out of text and not reading correctly. Unless you think Morton was a great QB, then you are correct. Maybe you should read the whole post that ties the above quote with the 77 team, which Elway was in High School at the time.

ez killer.. your right I forgot about the 77 team

just making a funny

bowtown
10-08-2009, 02:49 PM
It's all pure speculation on Whitlock's part. Does anyone know for sure that Cutler and the Broncos would be 4-0 at this point and time. Let me answer that for you: No.

If we are going to speculate, lets speculate on how many INTs Cutler would have thrown by now. Last time I checked, INTs lead to poor field postion for a defense and a momentum shift for the opposing team.

Just saying, it's dumb to speculate like that because no one can say for sure that the Broncos would be 4-0 with Cutler.

Yes, Cutler is supremely talented and yes, pound for pound, a more talented QB than Orton. That being said, you have to take all things into consideration like leadership skills, personality, ability to accept a new system and the ability to execute that new system with a minimum of mistakes.

I'm not blind to Orton's problems. He sometimes makes me pull my hair out. But I like his attitude and his leadership and that does go a long way on a football team that is focused on winning.

Good post.

USMCBladerunner
10-08-2009, 02:51 PM
Yeah, like he did last yr against the Raiders (despite missing his primary WR and having to depend in a rookie, that Orton can't find this yr) and what appeared to be the powerhouse SD. On fourth down and the game on the line Cutler did look scared. And on that 2 point conversion to win or lose, he was down right pathetic he was chocking so hard.

As to this yr's first game, did you watch it? He stunk in the first half, and has been playing great ever since. In fact as I stated in the post above, despite stinking it up in the first half, and no protection, mediocre, wrs and no running game, he gave the team the lead, but the D failed to protect it. In the last possession he made a good conservative pass, and the rookie WR gave up on the route, interception game over (the previous 3 interceptions were on Cutler, but not the last). Orton would have been turned into a pancake in those games with his lack of mobility, and would have lost 3 of the 4 games. In Cutler's worse game, he did a far better job to bring back the team than Orton did in the first game (who relied on an immaculate reception).

The hate some of you display makes your neurons just shut down.

You actually chose the home SD game as an example of Jay being clutch under pressure? The only person who choked more than Jay in that quarter was Ed Hochuli (Denver's D doesn't count, cause when you suck all game, you aren't choking when you suck at the end of it...;D). Jay's had some good moments in his day, and a few were in that game, but between his red zone pick and the blown fumble, he wasn't exactly money at the end of that game.

Steve Prefontaine
10-08-2009, 02:51 PM
I guess Jason missed Jay crapping down his leg when the season was on the line last season. I wonder if he say Jay poop himself in the opening game this year against a divisional rival in a big game?

I would expect you to understand that there was a tad more factoring into last year's collapse outside of Cutler.

Also, the Bears/Steelers game this year was kind of big a big deal and I thought Cutler played a pretty clutch game.

It boils down to this... some people can separate fantasy football from reality, and some can't. Some people see a big arm and assume that means the guy has the make-up of a SB winning QB.

Anyone who's watched the game long enough knows that physical ability is only half the battle at the QB position.

I don't give a **** about fantasy football. I think when you take into account all the attributes that make a QB, Cutler is better than Orton. I think the Broncos would be better if he was still on the team. That's just my opinion and I hope Orton proves me wrong.

But, a lot of people wanted to be right about this whole situation and turned out wrong. So, just like this board... some people will man-up and admit it, and some are going to try to make up pretend scenarios and excuses.
Hmm, a tad righteous 4 games into the year?

There's absolutely NO evidence that Jay Cutler would make this team any better. Judging by his record in college and the pros... he's a loser. When that changes... we can talk about how he'd make a difference for a team. Until then, he's a fancy-armed loser.

There's no evidence the team would NOT be better if Cutler was still around. It's all opinions and conjecture.

The really weird part...I think of anyone on this board, you are having the toughest time letting go of Cutler. You can't resist posting in any thread related to him.

Rock Chalk
10-08-2009, 02:51 PM
Yes i am a cutler fan. yes i am an orton fan. I dont understand the haters at all.

But here are some funny things about the haters.

All we heard all offseason was jay will run for his life, throw all these pick 6s and never score in the redzone.


This year--hmm dont see much of that. As for us.

He's been sacked 8 times in 4 games in Chi-town. He was sacked 12 times all of last year.

We are 17th in redzone scoring this year. Last year?- 17th? Boy i bet Jay cutlers ill timed ints and his bad ways are still hanging on the team right. Afterall we are rated the exact same for scoring as last year.

EXCEPT WE HAVE SCORED LESS THIS YEAR THAN LAST YEAR!

McFly, we have a new offense, did you expect us to put up 40 points a game from the start?



It makes no sense how people can still hate and use that as an arguement. I dont care because i like ORton and I like the broncos. And as much as i like jay and know he is a good QB- their fate controls our pick destiny. So i want them to lose. But we are/were better with Jay.

No, you cannot say that definitively. You do not know how Jay would have played under McD's offense. Maybe he plays well, maybe he doesn't, but that is an assumption. Personally I think this team is poorer with Jay at the helm. I do not believe he takes coaching well and I do not believe he would have let the team around him make plays and would have insisted on making his poor decisions.

How many games did we have where Jay was our QB and we scored less than 10 pts? ( i know of one against sd, but we also went for the td on 1st and goal from the 1, when we could have kicked the FG for pots)

Jay was also in his third year under a familiar offense everyone on the team knew. There is a HUGE difference in that.

I only ask because that is the most amount of pts scored against us so far. I think Jay and the broncos could put up more than 10 easily.

Sure they could have. And Denver with Orton has not been held to under 10 points in any game this year either.

And not to hate on Orton, because i like him. But in the dallas game. The two passes that he missed wide to Jabar, jay might have made, or atleast is better at.

Maybe he makes those throws, the first he should have completed there is no doubt about that but that is not a hard throw and 9 times otu of 10 Orton will make that throw. He missed it that time. I dont know the second one you are talkign about though.

ColoradoDarin
10-08-2009, 02:52 PM
You'd have to say Whitlock's right.
I really don't think the offense would be taking entire halves off with Cutler.

You miss large parts of last season? Outside the first 3 games our offense pretty much stunk. 13>3

ColoradoDarin
10-08-2009, 02:55 PM
I am going to have to agree with Whitlock on this one.

Broncos were 20-3 with Jay Cutler when the defense held the opponents to less than 20 points.

You do realize that our defense was 7-0 when the offense scored 24+ points? See, stats are fun.

jhns
10-08-2009, 03:02 PM
You miss large parts of last season? Outside the first 3 games our offense pretty much stunk. 13>3

LOL

We had this franchises worst ever defense and a crappy special teams. You are claiming the offense was also bad? So we won 8 games while playing crappy in all 3 phases of the game? What?

The offense was made up of all rookie-third year guys. We had Wiegman(no idea how to spell), Hamilton, and Graham that were older. This young offense was forced to carry the team. You guys act as though they wouldn't improve..... What a joke. They had the makings of a great offense. We were a RB and some experience away. Anything else you tell yourself is all you being butthurt that Cutler isn't here.

baja
10-08-2009, 03:04 PM
Except we didn't swap Cutler for Orton. We swapped him for Orton, two firsts and a third.

The other consideration we seldom hear about is what is it going to cost to sign Cutler. McD doesn't want a team with a few super stars and a bunch of roll players he want's smart dedicated good football players that play for each other and have an attitude that winning matters. That formula requires that you spread the cap money around and not give 60% of it to 1 or 2 players. Trading Cutler was the absolute right move. Not only was it the right move but it was a hell of a deal for the Broncos, we got a good fit for McD's system (case can be made that everything considered we are better at QB) plus we got two 1st and a 3rd. This trade will allow McD to have the broncos in the play offs this year and with some luck in a SB soon.

TheReverend
10-08-2009, 03:05 PM
Fair enough.

But the Bears are two stupid kickers away from being 1-3. You know it, I know it, everyone knows it, thats why the Bears are not getting a lot of love in the national media.

Wins are wins. I don't think we as Bronco fans should be throwing stones at "lucky" teams.

Merlin
10-08-2009, 03:06 PM
I disagree with that. You sound as if ONLY Cutler could make the plays to get the Bears where they are when in fact, many QBs in the league can make those plays, and many of those QBs could make even smarter players.
Touche. I was thinking in reference of Orton. You are right, there are a number of QBs that also win those games.

Cutler's problem, from what I can see, is he STILL thinks he is a one gang show.
I agree that he played that way here, and when one considers his college history it is understandable. You and I both disliked the way Butler allowed him to play last yr, and I place much of the blame for Cutler's lack of maturity in playing (i.e. understanding the importance of game management) on Butler and by extension Shanny. However, that side of Cutler has not been on display since his piss poor job in the first half of the first game. I'm guessing the HC gave him a small talk on the importance of keeping control of the game, and it sunk. He has had many opportunities to go back to his old habits in the past 3 games, yet played each game very well, so kudos to him.

but how long do you think that is going to last? With his mindset, with his attitude?
I honestly don't know. Remember, he is a very smart person, cares about winning, works extremely hard, and now has a coach who may be calling him to task when he becomes stupid. I really would have liked to have seen Cutler play under proper scrutiny, a la Plummer when he the record for games without interceptions. We would have been a playoff team and potential could have had the makings of one of the great offenses in history. However, we would have Slowik instead of Nolan, thanks, but no thanks. Too bad Shanny is so loyal to old friends. I wish him well as long as he stays away from the AFC. He better stay away from SD.

Mr. Elway
10-08-2009, 03:08 PM
Actually, he has had only one bad half[ of a game in the first quarter of the season. And despite the poor start, he gave the team a lead in his second to last possession and the defense pooched it. In the next possession the rookie WR gave up on the route which led to an interception ending the game. So even in his worst game, with NO running game, No protection, and mediocre WR, he played much better than Orton (in the second half) to bring the team back. In the following 3 games, he has taken excellent care of the ball, beat some good teams, while being under tremendous pressure because of the lack of protection and running game (although, Forte did look a little healthier in the last game; i.e. a couple of good runs).

Despite the hate, Cutler does not have a history of folding under pressure, quite the opposite. In a number of games he brought the Broncos back just to see the defense give up the game. He had excellent 4th quarter and 3rd down stats last year. And this yr, without the help of immaculate deflections and pinball WRs, Cutler has managed to post excellent numbers in the 4th qtr, leading to a couple of come from behind wins.

Was Cutler's reaction to McD's idiocy over the top? Of course it was, but he is only 26, and like all top athletes has an exaggerated sense of worth. McD TOTALLY screwed-up his handling of Cutler. On the plus side, he does not appear to be like other idiot coaches, and learns from his mistakes. His handling BM had some hiccups but has been impressive overall.

Cutler handled the McD event poorly, but he was and is not a wuss. He constantly puts his body in danger for the benefit of the team. The yr he went through the undiagnosed diabetes debacle no one heard a complaint from the man, despite his body's mass disappearing right in front of everyone's eyes. When BM screwed up last yr it was Cutler that took him in and made sure he was up to date on the offense, and when Brandon joined the team he was ready. There is a reason Champ was high on Cutler, like many other people who are experts in QB play. But haters will continue to just dismiss the facts. Why let facts get in the way of a good fantasy.

I think you make some valid points but don't include me in your list of fantasizing jayhaters :) I feel good about Orton right now and very skeptical of criticism that we made an irreperable screwup with Cutler. I am on record saying at the time the Cutler trade was a mistake, and I still think it could have been avoided. My feeling after 4 games is that we might be OK after all without Cutler, and that McDaniels is a lot better (especially with player personalities) than I realized. I am generally optimistic about the Broncos by nature but the team is clearly doing great by almost anyone's standards.

I think the jury is still out on Cutler and there is room for opinion either way on him. He has played reasonably well but he has not set the world on fire this season. He did some good things last year but Rivers deserved the Pro Bowl berth and you can credit some amazing plays on Marshall's part for some of Jay's yardage. He did some good things, but nothing really meaningful. He has also had temper tantrums on the field, and played worst when it counted the most. Just my opinion, and as I said it's all conjecture until we see more of him.

Merlin
10-08-2009, 03:10 PM
Jay's had some good moments in his day, and a few were in that game, but between his red zone pick and the blown fumble, he wasn't exactly money at the end of that game.
A ball slipping out of his hands is not an example of chocking, otherwise you would have to call Elway a choker for the games he lost when the ball slipped (I still remember the game against KC and Montana). If he were a choke, there is no way in hell he makes those plays. Do you even remember the play? Especially since the 2 point conversion was essentially the same play and it was a win or lose play (just like the previous one). If you think that is a play a choker makes, then you have never played sports.

JJJ
10-08-2009, 03:12 PM
I love the 4-0 start as much as anybody, but it's like the elephant in the room you can't ignore it. We would all love the have the killer defense and still have, Culter, Marshall and Royal hanging 40 on our opponents....

Exactly. And the rest of the league thanks you. Seriously you guys would have been scary. No one will ever, ever be scared of Orton.

Merlin
10-08-2009, 03:17 PM
Jay was also in his third year under a familiar offense everyone on the team knew. There is a HUGE difference in that.
Actually he was not. That was his third offensive coordinator in as many years, and each coordinator had totally different game style and play. Kubey was quite different than the OC that left to Tennessee, and Butler was Madden on steroids. I could not disagree with you more. For some reason Shanny decided to let Butler put too much of a stamp on last yrs offense. Also new OL, rookie WR and won't even mention the RB MASH unit.

Rock Chalk
10-08-2009, 03:20 PM
Actually he was not. That was his third offensive coordinator in as many years, and each coordinator had totally different game style and play. Kubey was quite different than the OC that left to Tennessee, and Butler was Madden on steroids. I could not disagree with you more. For some reason Shanny decided to let Butler put too much of a stamp on last yrs offense. Also new OL, rookie WR and won't even mention the RB MASH unit.

Who's Butler?

You mean Bates?

The plays were the same, which plays called were all that was different. From Kubiak to Dinger to Bates, the playbook never once changed.

That was Shanny's playbook.

JJJ
10-08-2009, 03:22 PM
It's all pure speculation on Whitlock's part. Does anyone know for sure that Cutler and the Broncos would be 4-0 at this point and time. Let me answer that for you: No.

If we are going to speculate, lets speculate on how many INTs Cutler would have thrown by now. Last time I checked, INTs lead to poor field postion for a defense and a momentum shift for the opposing team.

Just saying, it's dumb to speculate like that because no one can say for sure that the Broncos would be 4-0 with Cutler.

Yes, Cutler is supremely talented and yes, pound for pound, a more talented QB than Orton. That being said, you have to take all things into consideration like leadership skills, personality, ability to accept a new system and the ability to execute that new system with a minimum of mistakes.

I'm not blind to Orton's problems. He sometimes makes me pull my hair out. But I like his attitude and his leadership and that does go a long way on a football team that is focused on winning.

Dude. Only one opponent has gotten to 10 points. Throw in a TD generated off of Cutler turnovers and your O from last year would have put 17 points in their sleep. You would have been 4-0 or 3-1 against those weak teams for sure.

Rock Chalk
10-08-2009, 03:23 PM
A ball slipping out of his hands is not an example of chocking, otherwise you would have to call Elway a choker for the games he lost when the ball slipped (I still remember the game against KC and Montana). If he were a choke, there is no way in hell he makes those plays. Do you even remember the play? Especially since the 2 point conversion was essentially the same play and it was a win or lose play (just like the previous one). If you think that is a play a choker makes, then you have never played sports.

The game against Montana....thats not a good example. IIRC Elway led the team down the field for the game winning score only to have Montana out-Elway Elway in the final 2 minutes of the game for hsi own game winning score.

jhns
10-08-2009, 03:26 PM
Who's Butler?

You mean Bates?

The plays were the same, which plays called were all that was different. From Kubiak to Dinger to Bates, the playbook never once changed.

That was Shanny's playbook.

They still didn't all have a ton more time in the offense. Aside from being rookie-third year guys(still adjusting to the NFL), the offense also has a new second receiver, a new LT, a new center, a new FB(2 actually), and a lot of new RBs. I would say that is a significant chunck of the offense learning the playbook. That isn't even mentioning that they were also learning to play with each other still, which isn't the case this year.

Merlin
10-08-2009, 03:26 PM
I think the jury is still out on Cutler and there is room for opinion either way on him. He has played reasonably well but he has not set the world on fire this season. He did some good things last year but Rivers deserved the Pro Bowl berth and you can credit some amazing plays on Marshall's part for some of Jay's yardage.
I disagree with that. First of all, Cutler didn't take Rivers place, the overhyped octogenarian presently playing for the Vikes did. Also, Rivers stats dropped dramatically when he had little running game. Cutler conversely was the reason Denver had any running game. Teams would play so hard to defend against the pass the running game was often left unprotected (and our idiot OC did not take advantage of it often enough). Rivers was very good, but Cutler did more with less. Other than BM, our players have done very little stat wise, and even in BM's case, he will not come to the same numbers as last yr. Plus, Rivers got to play twice against Denver's D.

Merlin
10-08-2009, 03:28 PM
The game against Montana....thats not a good example. IIRC Elway led the team down the field for the game winning score only to have Montana out-Elway Elway in the final 2 minutes of the game for hsi own game winning score.
You are forgetting Elway's last possession. The ball slipped off his hand...and we lost. That is why I referenced that game, one slip does not equal choke.

lex
10-08-2009, 03:29 PM
This is always going to be hanging out there. Always. If Denver wins a SB in the next few years, it will seem like it wasnt such a bad move, unless the Bears win a 2 or 3 after that. Besides that, just look at the game day thread and look at all the complaining about Orton up until Marshall made that nice play. How quickly people forget how much the offense was struggling. Suddenly all the missed throws people were complaining about are forgotten because of one play from Marshall and a nice stop by the defense.

This issue isnt going away any time soon.

USMCBladerunner
10-08-2009, 03:30 PM
A ball slipping out of his hands is not an example of chocking, otherwise you would have to call Elway a choker for the games he lost when the ball slipped (I still remember the game against KC and Montana). If he were a choke, there is no way in hell he makes those plays. Do you even remember the play? Especially since the 2 point conversion was essentially the same play and it was a win or lose play (just like the previous one). If you think that is a play a choker makes, then you have never played sports.

I think you have overly focused on the TD and 2-pt conversion, rather than seeing that he had previously thrown a 4th Qtr interception in the red zone to allow the Chargers to get the ball and take the lead, then followed it up with dropping the ball for no reason. And yes, dropping the ball for no reason when in the red zone with the game on the line is choking.

I never even said that Cutler is a choker, what I'm saying is that you using that game as proof that he isn't a choker is stupid, because in the 4th quarter of THAT game, he choked twice. This is obscured by the fact that he and Ed were able to overcome those mistakes. Unfortunately for Broncos fans everywhere, this was not the case against Buffalo.

My having played sports isn't really germane to this conversation, but for what it's worth, I have played sports at most levels.

Rock Chalk
10-08-2009, 03:32 PM
I disagree with that. First of all, Cutler didn't take Rivers place, the overhyped octogenarian presently playing for the Vikes did. Also, Rivers stats dropped dramatically when he had little running game. Cutler conversely was the reason Denver had any running game. Teams would play so hard to defend against the pass the running game was often left unprotected (and our idiot OC did not take advantage of it often enough). Rivers was very good, but Cutler did more with less. Other than BM, our players have done very little stat wise, and even in BM's case, he will not come to the same numbers as last yr. Plus, Rivers got to play twice against Denver's D.

I think what he meant is the Rivers deserved that Pro Bowl last year over Cutler (or Favre for that matter).

Look at Rivers' stats last year. He had an incredible year and as much as I hate SD and their 3 fans, and Rivers for that matter, he really did outplay Cutler. He outplayed damn near every QB in the league.

You say Cutler did more with less last year but I disagree. Rivers didn't have a plethora of TEs and WRs to throw to and he damn sure didn't have the offensive line Cutler had. Its not alla bout the running game. Rivers had that over Cutler sure, but Cutler had just about everything else over Rivers in the way of helping him to succeed.

Marshall made Orton look great Sunday, and he did the same for Cutler last year many times.

baja
10-08-2009, 03:33 PM
Does anyone honestly believe Cutler would have sat there and listened to that kind of talk from McD? Cutler has been coddled his entire career, and there's no way some rookie coach could come in there and talk to the face of the franchise like that. You don't see Peyton or Brady being talked to like that, right?

That's why this entire conversation is stupid. If the team leader wasn't going to buy in or respect the coach, how do you get all the rookies and FA's to buy in? This could be a totally different team with that kind of attitude.

Props to McD for recognizing how critical attitude is to success from the very beginning.


Great point.

Merlin
10-08-2009, 03:33 PM
Who's Butler?

You mean Bates?

The plays were the same, which plays called were all that was different. From Kubiak to Dinger to Bates, the playbook never once changed.

That was Shanny's playbook.
Yeah, brain cramp. The plays were not the same. In fact Shanny made a point of stating that the change the game plan during the summer to try and emulate NE. And Dinger was quite different from Kubiak, and I think that was one of the major issues affecting Plummer.

But I just realized, I don't think Cutler ever saw Kubiak. So two different OCs (Dinger and Bates) with totally different styles of play from his first full yr to his second full yr.

Rock Chalk
10-08-2009, 03:37 PM
Yeah, brain cramp. The plays were not the same. In fact Shanny made a point of stating that the change the game plan during the summer to try and emulate NE. And Dinger was quite different from Kubiak, and I think that was one of the major issues affecting Plummer.

But I just realized, I don't think Cutler ever saw Kubiak. So two different OCs (Dinger and Bates) with totally different styles of play from his first full yr to his second full yr.

No, the plays were the same.

The only difference is that Shanahan decided to use more of the spread plays in his playbook than he had previously. He figured, he had a big gun slinger that they didn't need to run the ball as much they could employ the screens from the spread like NE did.

I promise you though, not a single play we threw out there last year was new to Shanahan's playbook. We would not go spread or 4/5 wide often before because we used our run game more effectively in the past. Shanahan saw the success of New England and thought perhaps the game was changing with the pass friendly rules and that the run game wouldn't be as important in the future (he was wrong, run game will forever be important in football).

The game plan changed, the plays did not.

Merlin
10-08-2009, 03:38 PM
. And yes, dropping the ball for no reason when in the red zone with the game on the line is choking.
You just don't get it. A choker does not make does final two plays. It is not in their nature...thus the choker label. To make matters worse, those were very hard passes to make (especially the second time around because Royal had 3 defenders converging on him). Conversely, unless he has a history of balls slipping out of his hand on crunch time (which is quite the opposite since he was one of the highest rated QBs in the 4th Qtr last yr and this yr), the slip is just an example of accidents happen.

Merlin
10-08-2009, 03:40 PM
The game plan changed, the plays did not.
I'll defer to you on that one

broncofan7
10-08-2009, 03:42 PM
I disagree with that. You sound as if ONLY Cutler could make the plays to get the Bears where they are when in fact, many QBs in the league can make those plays, and many of those QBs could make even smarter players.

Cutler's problem, from what I can see, is he STILL thinks he is a one gang show. Its all gotta be on him. That's somewhat admirable that he wants to take on the responsibility but he is not one of those rare NFL players that has that ability. Of all of Cutler's talents, taking a game on his shoulders and bearing the load is not one of them.

He would do well to just keep playing like he has been, but how long do you think that is going to last? With his mindset, with his attitude?

I wish teh Bears nothing but ill will this year but after that I could give a **** what happens to them.

Kyle Orton sure as hell isn't one of them........

jhns
10-08-2009, 03:44 PM
What I like about this argument is even Bowlen has said McD made rookie mistakes. What do you guys think he was talking about? Lucky for us, it also looks like he made a lot of good decisions. That doesn't change the fact that we would be better with all of those decisions minus the Cutler debacle.

USMCBladerunner
10-08-2009, 03:47 PM
You just don't get it. A choker does not make does final two plays. It is not in their nature...thus the choker label. To make matters worse, those were very hard passes to make (especially the second time around because Royal had 3 defenders converging on him). Conversely, unless he has a history of balls slipping out of his hand on crunch time (which is quite the opposite since he was one of the highest rated QBs in the 4th Qtr last yr and this yr), the slip is just an example of accidents happen.

No Merlin it's you that doesn't get it. Making good plays is only part of what a clutch player does, they also don't make the critical mistake that loses the game. You can make a whole series of great plays late in the game, but if you blow it all with one bad one, then you choked it on that one. It was all for naught. Cutler WAS money on those last two throws, but he gagged on it prior to that, and but for the grace of Ed, would have lost the game right then and there. You chosing this game as a case study on Cutler's non-chokiness is laughable. That you can't see that after I have explained why is even more laughable.

I don't think Jay is a choker, but I would never use that game as justification for my opinion.

Bronco Yoda
10-08-2009, 03:48 PM
If we could only have the 1977 Broncos Defense with the 1997 offense we could be a dynasty today.

If only....

btw, Cutler didn't want to be here anymore. Funny how so many forget this little fact. He wanted out the day Shanahan and Co. was shown the door. From then on it was a struggle to get him back on board which Bowlen never fully accomplished. Sadly, once Bowlen pulled the trigger on the old coaching staff... it was only a matter of time IMO.

USMCBladerunner
10-08-2009, 03:50 PM
I don't want to use my 1000th post in an argument with Merlin, so I just want to say Yay me and my meaningless milestone.

Woot.

Archer81
10-08-2009, 03:52 PM
I don't want to use my 1000th post in an argument with Merlin, so I just want to say Yay me and my meaningless milestone.

Woot.


Attention whore.


:Broncos:

Merlin
10-08-2009, 04:00 PM
I don't think Jay is a choker, but I would never use that game as justification for my opinion.
We just have a different way of interpreting the events. You just choked under the pressure ;D

I'm hurt I was not worthy of your 1000th post :P

Mr. Elway
10-08-2009, 04:04 PM
What I like about this argument is even Bowlen has said McD made rookie mistakes. What do you guys think he was talking about? Lucky for us, it also looks like he made a lot of good decisions. That doesn't change the fact that we would be better with all of those decisions minus the Cutler debacle.

I think you take the good decisions with the bad, and judge McDaniels by the overall outcome. Like others have said, there's just so many variables in play that it's almost impossible to say if the Cutler trade was "worth it" - at least not at this point.

Popps
10-08-2009, 04:06 PM
I would expect you to understand that there was a tad more factoring into last year's collapse outside of Cutler.

Really? But, I thought he was a "franchise" quarterback.

We had to win ONE ****ing game in our last 4. Elway would have willed us to a win. Cutler couldn't beat a crappy Buffalo team in a relatively low scoring game.


Also, the Bears/Steelers game this year was kind of big a big deal and I thought Cutler played a pretty clutch game..

The question on Cutler isn't whether Cutler can put up stats or win a few games. The question is... is he a leader, a winner and a champion. Champions win that Buffalo game last year.


Hmm, a tad righteous 4 games into the year?
.

No more "righteous" than people making outlandish claims that we'd be "better" than 4-0 if we had a QB with a history of losing under center.


The really weird part...I think of anyone on this board, you are having the toughest time letting go of Cutler. You can't resist posting in any thread related to him.

I don't claim to be "trying to resist" any topic involving the Broncos. You'll find me all over these threads. Why would I avoid this one? I think it's hysterical watching dumb-****s piss all over themselves trying to look smart, after an off-season of making themselves look like idiots.

It's a Broncos topic. Why wouldn't I get involved? It was a major, major off-season story that's still playing out. You're posting here too, son.

Why would I need to specifically avoid THIS topic? **** that. I'm thrilled with how this has panned out. Then again, I like winning more than bashing my own team.

Popps
10-08-2009, 04:09 PM
The other hysterical aspect to the "we'd be better with Cutler" argument is this...

Pretty much everyone who analyzes football can recognize at this stage that McDaniels is a great football mind in progress. His eye for talent should be blatantly obvious by now.

Yet, these Jay-Gays think that when it comes to a position as high-profile as QB, they are suddenly smarter than McDaniels. It's like, they all have to admit that McD has made great decisions... yet insist that those great decisions doesn't include going another direction at QB. Yea, O.K..

Beyond that, we all know how this played out. Jay wanted out of town and McDaniels saw something in his personality/skill-set that led him to finally say.. "you want out, go ahead."

fontaine
10-08-2009, 04:11 PM
McDaniels may have started off the problem but it was Jay who finished it and did so very badly.

Whatever about the situation, I'm betting Cutler is looking at this defense now and wishes he hadn't acted like such a childish douche in wanting out of Denver.

Oh and as far as Fatlock is concerned, it's just blatantly stupid to be comparing Orton and Cutler. Orton may not be as talented but he's with a brand new coaching staff in a brand new offensive system and it takes time. That's something the ADD suffering idiots don't realize. The offense won't hit it's peak for a good while yet but if we're lucky and the players buy into the system they can really make a run in December.

fontaine
10-08-2009, 04:16 PM
The other hysterical aspect to the "we'd be better with Cutler" argument is this...

Pretty much everyone who analyzes football can recognize at this stage that McDaniels is a great football mind in progress. His eye for talent should be blatantly obvious by now.

Yet, these Jay-Gays think that when it comes to a position as high-profile as QB, they are suddenly smarter than McDaniels. It's like, they all have to admit that McD has made great decisions... yet insist that those great decisions doesn't include going another direction at QB. Yea, O.K..

Beyond that, we all know how this played out. Jay wanted out of town and McDaniels saw something in his personality/skill-set that led him to finally say.. "you want out, go ahead."

Really? So McDaniels has GM powers now? How exactly do you know who he hand picked, who Nolan did, who Turner did etc etc.

But if you're talking about how it played out and all that, then it was Bowlen who finally made that call, not just McDaniels.

The only coach who directly should get any credit so far is Nolan because it was his call to go to a 3-4, it's his blitz calls, adjustments, and play calls that are carrying this team and the running game.

Or to use your lingo, stop being a Josh-Gay.

broncocalijohn
10-08-2009, 04:22 PM
Exactly. And the rest of the league thanks you. Seriously you guys would have been scary. No one will ever, ever be scared of Orton.

But you have to be scared of Marshall, Stokely and Royal/Gaffney out there wide with Knowshown and Buck out in the backfield. Throw in the offensive line and the McDaniels schemes and there will be no time to be scared of the QB. He is working with the system and has pretty much done as asked. As long as this defense holds up, we will win. The schedule is giving us power offenses and we have to stop them, not necessarily have a shoot out like last year. Big difference.

TheReverend
10-08-2009, 04:31 PM
Really? So McDaniels has GM powers now? How exactly do you know who he hand picked, who Nolan did, who Turner did etc etc.

But if you're talking about how it played out and all that, then it was Bowlen who finally made that call, not just McDaniels.

The only coach who directly should get any credit so far is Nolan because it was his call to go to a 3-4, it's his blitz calls, adjustments, and play calls that are carrying this team and the running game.

Or to use your lingo, stop being a Josh-Gay.

There's no need to go as over-the-top as Popps is.

Like you, I'm still far from sold on Josh over-all, but we both do have to give him credit for even hiring Mike Nolan and the rest of the superb defensive coaches. I gave him credit when he did it, and after an unbelievable result, I give him more credit.

TailgateNut
10-08-2009, 04:43 PM
Maybe Whitlock didnt finsh his thoughts. Let me put what I think he meant to say (even though I might not entirely agree with it)..."With Cutler in as QB, even he couldnt screw up the potential of this team that the defense gives him. He could blow up in the red zone or throw a critical pick and somehow still have enough to win it all."


:notworthy

outdoor_miner
10-08-2009, 04:48 PM
The only coach who directly should get any credit so far is Nolan because it was his call to go to a 3-4, it's his blitz calls, adjustments, and play calls that are carrying this team and the running game.

That's not true. It was McDaniels' call (or, at least, the two of them combined)... I've seen several articles that said Nolan had experience running both a 4-3 or 3-4, and McDaniels wanted to run the 3-4 because it's what he was familiar with.

One other point - I've read several times that Nolan was not known for an "attacking" defense during his other stints throughout the league. There were several threads on here where people were expressing concern because Nolan actually was known for being a bit conservative with his play-calling. Again - I believe it was McD that said he wanted an attacking defense, and Nolan is delivering that.

Not trying to take away from Nolan and the amazing job he's done. However, I believe there is a ton of credit to go around (besides the simple fact that McDaniels hired Nolan).

Steve Prefontaine
10-08-2009, 04:49 PM
Really? But, I thought he was a "franchise" quarterback.

We had to win ONE ****ing game in our last 4. Elway would have willed us to a win. Cutler couldn't beat a crappy Buffalo team in a relatively low scoring game.



The question on Cutler isn't whether Cutler can put up stats or win a few games. The question is... is he a leader, a winner and a champion. Champions win that Buffalo game last year.



No more "righteous" than people making outlandish claims that we'd be "better" than 4-0 if we had a QB with a history of losing under center.



I don't claim to be "trying to resist" any topic involving the Broncos. You'll find me all over these threads. Why would I avoid this one? I think it's hysterical watching dumb-****s piss all over themselves trying to look smart, after an off-season of making themselves look like idiots.

It's a Broncos topic. Why wouldn't I get involved? It was a major, major off-season story that's still playing out. You're posting here too, son.

Why would I need to specifically avoid THIS topic? **** that. I'm thrilled with how this has panned out. Then again, I like winning more than bashing my own team.
Oh, hi Dad!!!!

I hate the Elway comparison, but since you brought it up...
Elway lost quite a few Super Bowls before he got some help. I guess he wasn't a franchise QB since he couldn't "will" the team to victory in those games.

Be more delusional.

Paladin
10-08-2009, 04:50 PM
Reality check:



Quitler ain't coming back. Get over it.......

Br0nc0Buster
10-08-2009, 04:51 PM
Really? So McDaniels has GM powers now? How exactly do you know who he hand picked, who Nolan did, who Turner did etc etc.

But if you're talking about how it played out and all that, then it was Bowlen who finally made that call, not just McDaniels.

The only coach who directly should get any credit so far is Nolan because it was his call to go to a 3-4, it's his blitz calls, adjustments, and play calls that are carrying this team and the running game.

Or to use your lingo, stop being a Josh-Gay.

No
Josh brought in the players
Elvis said Josh personally helped him during the OTAs as far as transitioning from DE to OLB
Josh knows defense also, he started out on defense with the Patriots

bombay
10-08-2009, 04:51 PM
Whitlock is a fat loser.

USMCBladerunner
10-08-2009, 04:51 PM
We just have a different way of interpreting the events. You just choked under the pressure ;D

I'm hurt I was not worthy of your 1000th post :P

lol...good one.

Don't take it personally, like Sirhcyennek81 said, I'm an attention whore.

Drek
10-08-2009, 05:10 PM
I enjoyed the Opening Drive on Sirius a couple days ago when Randy Cross and Peter King basically tore Whitlock apart because he writes asinine articles based on almost no football knowledge whatsoever.

He's a joke. Perfect beat writer for the team he covers though, so it works in KC.

The **** Whitlock is allowed to pass off as "journalism" is probably why you have rags like Warpaint Illustrated where some overweight basement dwellers act like they've got a clue about something other than the rules to Dungeons and Dragons, and the nutritional value of Twinkies.

lazarus4444
10-08-2009, 05:11 PM
Damn, I can't believe I actually agree with something that Whitlock said. This is like the first time ever.

Even though I'm still a Shanahan guy, I'm really liking what McDaniels has done. He fixed the defense. That was the biggest problem with the team. I didn't like that Shanahan was fired, but if the stories are true that he didn't want to dump that sorry ass defensive coordinator that they had, then Shanahan kind of had to go.

I was getting over the coaching change, and seeing what McDaniels has done, I don't have a problem with it. This team had a lot of offensive talent, they just needed a defense to match. If McDaniels simply kept last year's offense in tact, with Cutler, and matched it with this year's defense I'd be screaming Super Bowl right now.

I questioned a lot of moves that were made during the offseason, but now the only one I really question is the Cutler trade. I like that Orton isn't turning over the ball, which is about the only good thing that I can say about the guy. But I'd say that with the defense only giving up like 6 points per game, if they had Cutler they'd rely less on him and his ints would be way down. And the Broncos would be scoring more points. At some point the offense is going to have to put some points up on the board.

Now if the D can continue to play at this level for the entire season, even against the top offenses in the league, then I'd say that they could have a shot to go really far, even with Orton at QB. But that's asking a lot from a defense. This team can't expect to just pull out wins in dramatic fashion all the time. At some point it is going to catch up with them.

I don't want to sound like a downer here, because I'm sure a lot of folks here will jump all over this, but these are legit concerns. How far can this team really go with Orton at QB?

Has anybody thought that maybe a PART of the reason the defense is better is because our QB is not putting them in horrible situations multiple times a game? I KNOW that last year the personnel sucked and the scheme totally blew but cutler didn't help them out at all by turning the ball over 23 times. I believe Orton is helping the defense, and therefore helping the team, by not playing stupid or like a gunslinger.

I guarantee you if we had cutler he would have turned the ball over more and our D would be giving up an average of over at least 10 points a game.

JJJ
10-08-2009, 05:26 PM
But you have to be scared of Marshall, Stokely and Royal/Gaffney out there wide with Knowshown and Buck out in the backfield. Throw in the offensive line and the McDaniels schemes and there will be no time to be scared of the QB. He is working with the system and has pretty much done as asked. As long as this defense holds up, we will win. The schedule is giving us power offenses and we have to stop them, not necessarily have a shoot out like last year. Big difference.

You guys will find yourself behind this weekend. Then we will see how much of a liability Orton can be. Lets see how well he plays when he has to play catch up. Do you really this this no pick streak will continue?

I don't believe your defense will hold up anywhere near this pace for much longer. Quarter two of the season I think they start coming back to earth.

Mr. Elway
10-08-2009, 05:28 PM
You guys will find yourself behind this weekend. Then we will see how much of a liability Orton can be. Lets see how well he plays when he has to play catch up. Do you really this this no pick streak will continue?

Yeah cuz if Orton finds himself down by 10 it's all over. Wait no that was last week's argument.

Bronco Yoda
10-08-2009, 05:33 PM
You guys will find yourself behind this weekend. Then we will see how much of a liability Orton can be. Lets see how well he plays when he has to play catch up. Do you really this this no pick streak will continue?

I don't believe your defense will hold up anywhere near this pace for much longer. Quarter two of the season I think they start coming back to earth.

No doubt Jay could sling the rock. Too bad he didn't have the stones to stick around and try and learn to be a winner.

Popps
10-08-2009, 05:41 PM
Really? So McDaniels has GM powers now? How exactly do you know who he hand picked, who Nolan did, who Turner did etc etc. .

OOooohhhh wait, during the off-season, all I was told is that he was a tyrant and our GM was a figurehead. That's changed, now? Wow, you guys need to get your story straight. Suddenly now that we've done well in FA and the draft... McDaniels isn't involved.

Tell you want, figure out which it is... then we'll regroup and talk about it again.

Personally, I'd suspect it's like most organizations... where a good coach coordinates these things with his front office staff. Not rocket science.


But if you're talking about how it played out and all that, then it was Bowlen who finally made that call, not just McDaniels..

Yea, I know. I've been defending Bowlen all off-season against the likes of yourself who chose to **** all over him.


The only coach who directly should get any credit so far is Nolan because it was his call to go to a 3-4, it's his blitz calls, adjustments, and play calls that are carrying this team and the running game.
.

Really? So, McDaniels as a head coach had no say in who his coordinator was going to be? Wow, I've never heard of that before. Do you have proof of such nonsense? Go ahead and post it. We'll wait here.


Or to use your lingo, stop being a Josh-Gay.

I'm a fan of our coach and our team. I'm not pining after some dude who quit on the team and tearing down our own team in the process.

So, the lingo isn't the same.

TheReverend
10-08-2009, 05:46 PM
Has anybody thought that maybe a PART of the reason the defense is better is because our QB is not putting them in horrible situations multiple times a game? I KNOW that last year the personnel sucked and the scheme totally blew but cutler didn't help them out at all by turning the ball over 23 times. I believe Orton is helping the defense, and therefore helping the team, by not playing stupid or like a gunslinger.

I guarantee you if we had cutler he would have turned the ball over more and our D would be giving up an average of over at least 10 points a game.

Games where Denver gave up 30 or more pts last season:

Week 2 last season: Cutler has 1 turnover. Defense surrenders 38 points.

Week 3 last season: Cutler has 1 turnover. Defense surrenders 32 points.

Week 7 last season: Cutler has 2 turnovers. Defense surrenders 41 points.

Week 10 last season: Cutler has 1 turnover. Defense surrenders 30 points to the BROWNS.

Week 12 last season: Cutler has 1 turnover. Defense surrenders 31 points to the RAIDERS.

Week 15 last season: Cutler has 1 turnover. Defense surrenders 30 points.

Week 16 last season: Cutler has 1 turnover. Defense surrenders 30 points.

Week 17 last season: Cutler has 2 turnover. Defense surrenders 52 points.

So there were only two multiple turnover games (and by multiple I mean 2) in these defensively inept games.

TheReverend
10-08-2009, 05:49 PM
No doubt Jay could sling the rock. Too bad he didn't have the stones to stick around and try and learn to be a winner.

It's obvious that I wish he were still a part of this team and think this would be a dominant football club... right now the guy is a winner in Chicago against what's been a tougher schedule so far.

Atwater His Ass
10-08-2009, 05:49 PM
Whitlock is right. Cutler makes this team scary with his ability. With what so far seems to be excellent coaching from McD, I'm sure he could have tremendously helped Cutler develop. You all seem to forget that Cutler was only a 2nd year starter last season. You treat him like he was a 10 year vet. His potential is still very high, whereas a journeyman like Orton is already topped out. He is what he is.

Nothing can be done about it to be sure, but McD and Bowlen really screwed the pooch in letting Cutler go. This team is just scary with Cutler under center.

Archer81
10-08-2009, 05:51 PM
Blah blah blah...mindless arguing over things we cant change...****...


:Broncos:

bombay
10-08-2009, 05:52 PM
Cutler wanted out, offended the owner and got his wish.

The end. No amount of crying makes any difference.

Inkana7
10-08-2009, 05:55 PM
Whitlock is right. Cutler makes this team scary with his ability. With what so far seems to be excellent coaching from McD, I'm sure he could have tremendously helped Cutler develop. You all seem to forget that Cutler was only a 2nd year starter last season. You treat him like he was a 10 year vet. His potential is still very high, whereas a journeyman like Orton is already topped out. He is what he is.

Nothing can be done about it to be sure, but McD and Bowlen really screwed the pooch in letting Cutler go. This team is just scary with Cutler under center.
Last year was also Orton's 2nd year starting, bub.

KevinJames
10-08-2009, 06:06 PM
lets be real with Cutler we would be 2-2 3-1 at best and the D wouldn't be ranked #1

TDmvp
10-08-2009, 06:41 PM
... Yup

We went from having a Qb that could make us contenders for a decade , to ONCE AGAIN much like during the Plummer years having a STOP GAP QB...

I love the start , I love the way the guys are giving it their all.
But looking back at this for the next 10 years is going to suck @$$.

Circle Orange
10-08-2009, 06:44 PM
Is Whitlock still pleasingly plump? Methinks the fat hath melted to his brain.

Lev Vyvanse
10-08-2009, 06:59 PM
It's obvious that I wish he were still a part of this team and think this would be a dominant football club... right now the guy is a winner in Chicago against what's been a tougher schedule so far.

Yeah, they’ve been through a gauntlet. ::) At least we have beaten a team with a winning record.

Circle Orange
10-08-2009, 07:03 PM
Lucky to face two teams who both missed TWO FIELD GOALS in each game...and of course, facing Seattle without Hasselbeck. That four leaf clover is getting worn out.

TDmvp
10-08-2009, 07:08 PM
Lucky to face two teams who both missed TWO FIELD GOALS in each game...and of course, facing Seattle without Hasselbeck. That four leaf clover is getting worn out.

yea like we aint been MEGA lucky so far ...

RhymesayersDU
10-08-2009, 07:13 PM
ROFL @ a Bronco fan calling somebody else lucky after our week 1 shenanigans.

Pot? Meet kettle.

Bob's your Information Minister
10-08-2009, 07:27 PM
Whitlock is my lovey.

Denver's slide is starting this weekend and Orton won't be able to stop it.

Cutler might have been able to slow it down a little...

jhat01
10-08-2009, 07:29 PM
Whitlock is my lovey.

Denver's slide is starting this weekend and Orton won't be able to stop it.

Cutler might have been able to slow it down a little...

All I can do is laugh at you..btw, you never told us what it feels like to be able to piss on your own nutsack.

TDmvp
10-08-2009, 07:30 PM
I think Stink summed it up well on Mike and Mike today when he was talking about the passes that should be automatic for a QB that Kyle misses on a lot.

Stink mentioned 2 really bad misses last week that would have blown the cowboys game wild open and kyle missed both by 8-10 yards ... both to Gaffney i think...


Not many teams win SB's with average QB... just facts.

In last 20 years I would say only 2 teams have won super bowls with QBs as average as what we have ....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Super_Bowl_champions

January 26, 2003 Tampa Bay Buccaneers 
January 28, 2001 Baltimore Ravens


But if you look at that list of winners , one thing mostly in common . franchise QB with a much better skill set then Kyle

RhymesayersDU
10-08-2009, 07:36 PM
I think Stink summed it up well on Mike and Mike today when he was talking about the passes that should be automatic for a QB that Kyle misses on a lot.

Stink mentioned 2 really bad misses last week that would have blown the cowboys game wild open and kyle missed both by 8-10 yards ... both to Gaffney i think...


Not many teams win SB's with average QB... just facts.

In last 20 years I would say only 2 teams have won super bowls with QBs as average as what we have ....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Super_Bowl_champions

January 26, 2003 Tampa Bay Buccaneers 
January 28, 2001 Baltimore Ravens


But if you look at that list of winners , one thing mostly in common . franchise QB with a much better skill set then Kyle

Yeah early in the game he was missing guys pretty bad, but he ended 20/29 so it's hard to criticize. I tend to believe we need a real franchise QB, but I guess we'll just have to see how the offense works under Orton for now.

misturanderson
10-08-2009, 08:08 PM
Games where Denver gave up 30 or more pts last season:

Week 2 last season: Cutler has 1 turnover. Defense surrenders 38 points.

Week 3 last season: Cutler has 1 turnover. Defense surrenders 32 points.

Week 7 last season: Cutler has 2 turnovers. Defense surrenders 41 points.

Week 10 last season: Cutler has 1 turnover. Defense surrenders 30 points to the BROWNS.

Week 12 last season: Cutler has 1 turnover. Defense surrenders 31 points to the RAIDERS.

Week 15 last season: Cutler has 1 turnover. Defense surrenders 30 points.

Week 16 last season: Cutler has 1 turnover. Defense surrenders 30 points.

Week 17 last season: Cutler has 2 turnover. Defense surrenders 52 points.

So there were only two multiple turnover games (and by multiple I mean 2) in these defensively inept games.

Cutler can turn the ball over in more way than one. Fumbles also count as turnovers.

And we could look at it this way: in the 5 games that Denver gave up 20 or fewer points, Cutler turned over the ball a total of 2 times. Looks like we tended to do worse defensively when he turned the ball over.

Or we could look at it this way: in the SIX games that Cutler turned the ball over more than once (fumbles and interceptions), the defense gave up an average of 34 points a game. In the 10 that he turned the ball over 1 or fewer times, they allowed an average of 24 points. Multiple turnovers by Cutler may have cost us 10 points per game by these statistics.

That's not even taking into account how many points we LOST because of those turnovers.

underrated29
10-08-2009, 08:10 PM
He's been sacked 8 times in 4 games in Chi-town. He was sacked 12 times all of last year.

McFly, we have a new offense, did you expect us to put up 40 points a game from the start?

No, you cannot say that definitively. You do not know how Jay would have played under McD's offense. Maybe he plays well, maybe he doesn't, but that is an assumption. Personally I think this team is poorer with Jay at the helm. I do not believe he takes coaching well and I do not believe he would have let the team around him make plays and would have insisted on making his poor decisions.

Jay was also in his third year under a familiar offense everyone on the team knew. There is a HUGE difference in that.

Sure they could have. And Denver with Orton has not been held to under 10 points in any game this year either.


Maybe he makes those throws, the first he should have completed there is no doubt about that but that is not a hard throw and 9 times otu of 10 Orton will make that throw. He missed it that time. I dont know the second one you are talkign about though.

Dam- i dont know this site well enough to do the multi quote thing.

1.- and how many times has kyle been sacked this year. I understand jay is at 8, what is kyle? i think he is at like 6..... Pretty close to me

2- Well Biff- this is supposed the most dangerous offense known to man, with a super solid OL and my FAV RB in the league. With another year exp for eddie and already the brandons. I kinda did expect since cutler was so bad that the #2 ranked offense would still stay top 3. Especially after we rided ourselves from his poor play.

3-you are right, we dont know and wont ever know. I could point all the signs for yes, but you could counter with all the nos' not much we can really do there.

4.- But Jay and the rest of the team would still have had to learn a new offense. No difference there. They ALL had to start fresh, only Jay would have still had his timing and rapport with the wr and scheffy.

5- true we have not been held under 10 pts. Lets hope that stays constant. I am sure it will!

6- Jay is good at the deep balls-but once again we wont and dont know. I cant remember the other one he missed to gaffney either???? I could have sworn there were two. But when i rethink about them i think it was the same play. ha.



- Dont forget though until Kyle proves he can air it out and rifle the deep ball. Teams will be more willing to stack the box on us. Jay they did have to fear it. I know kyle is top 5 in passes over 20 but a lot is yac and it was kinda automatic with jay.

But i really feel that will change soon.



I have compared last years cassell to this years team. Cassell took a good 5 games or so before he really started to turn it on offensively. Then they were doing really really well. I suspect we will see the same trend this year with kyle. Then all this will be moot. And we are at game 5. So it should turn on any game now.

*fingers crossed*

misturanderson
10-08-2009, 08:15 PM
5- true we have not been held under 10 pts. Lets hope that stays constant. I am sure it will!


We were held to 10 or fewer points last year on 3 occasions. We weren't an unstoppable juggernaut that never had bad weeks.

6- Jay is good at the deep balls

No. He wasn't. He would constantly over/underthrow deep balls. In fact, his inability to throw a good deep ball led indirectly to us losing the bills game and missing the playoffs when he overthrew Royal on 2 sure TDs. Just because you can throw it far doesn't mean you can throw it far accurately.

underrated29
10-08-2009, 08:37 PM
well, thats why they call it the deep ball. Because its hard to hit them. Sure he over/underthrew a lot. But he also nailed a bunch in his time too.

Just because he didnt hit the wr in stride everytime doesnt mean he cant throw the deep ball either. Most of the time he gave the wr a chance to atleast make a play on the ball. Some he whiffed, but most were underthrown and we got hands on it.

Lets not forget that that was his 2nd year playing 3rd in the league?

He seems to have corrected some of that this year. Hester and Knox can attest to that.

underrated29
10-08-2009, 08:39 PM
We were held to 10 or fewer points last year on 3 occasions. We weren't an unstoppable juggernaut that never had bad weeks.




Ugh, i know. The raiders game. I happened to be in LAX watching that game in the airport too. That was one of the worst days i have had as a bronco fan. 31-7 or whatever......i cried the whole flight home.

Steve Sewell
10-08-2009, 08:39 PM
thats what it has come to
"We may be 4-0, but we are not winning the way I want to, waaaahhh wheres Cutler"



Same thing that happened to Plummer. We went to the AFC Championship, but we weren't winning "pretty enough" for some fans (or Shanahan's) liking. It's just fun to win, and win the right way. McD/Orton/Defense is plenty pretty for me.

colorado jones
10-08-2009, 08:40 PM
Yet, these Jay-Gays think that when it comes to a position as high-profile as QB, they are suddenly smarter than McDaniels. It's like, they all have to admit that McD has made great decisions... yet insist that those great decisions doesn't include going another direction at QB. Yea, O.K.."

Does this part of your argument really hold water....didn't McD want Cassel to begin with? How would you of liked that 4 games into the season?

Steve Sewell
10-08-2009, 08:43 PM
Damn, I can't believe I actually agree with something that Whitlock said. This is like the first time ever.

Even though I'm still a Shanahan guy, I'm really liking what McDaniels has done. He fixed the defense. That was the biggest problem with the team. I didn't like that Shanahan was fired, but if the stories are true that he didn't want to dump that sorry ass defensive coordinator that they had, then Shanahan kind of had to go.

I was getting over the coaching change, and seeing what McDaniels has done, I don't have a problem with it. This team had a lot of offensive talent, they just needed a defense to match. If McDaniels simply kept last year's offense in tact, with Cutler, and matched it with this year's defense I'd be screaming Super Bowl right now.

I questioned a lot of moves that were made during the offseason, but now the only one I really question is the Cutler trade. I like that Orton isn't turning over the ball, which is about the only good thing that I can say about the guy. But I'd say that with the defense only giving up like 6 points per game, if they had Cutler they'd rely less on him and his ints would be way down. And the Broncos would be scoring more points. At some point the offense is going to have to put some points up on the board.

Now if the D can continue to play at this level for the entire season, even against the top offenses in the league, then I'd say that they could have a shot to go really far, even with Orton at QB. But that's asking a lot from a defense. This team can't expect to just pull out wins in dramatic fashion all the time. At some point it is going to catch up with them.

I don't want to sound like a downer here, because I'm sure a lot of folks here will jump all over this, but these are legit concerns. How far can this team really go with Orton at QB?

PLAYER TEAM ATT COMP PCT YDS YDS/A LONG TD INT SACK RATE YDS/G

Kyle Orton, QB DEN 117 69 59.0 906 7.74 87 5 0 6 97.7 227

Jay Cutler, QB CHI 129 83 64.3 901 6.98 68 8 5 8 89.3 225

tsiguy96
10-08-2009, 08:49 PM
who cares, hes gone and we will found out what the final trade was for next year when we use their #1. we are having a LOT of success with orton and him not turning the ball over, theres nothing wrong with that.

Meck77
10-08-2009, 08:49 PM
Damn that Orton. 4-0 just isn't good enough! We should already be 5-0 after 4 weeks of football.

bombay
10-08-2009, 08:54 PM
... Yup

We went from having a Qb that could make us contenders for a decade , to ONCE AGAIN much like during the Plummer years having a STOP GAP QB...

I love the start , I love the way the guys are giving it their all.
But looking back at this for the next 10 years is going to suck @$$.

Wait.. you preferred cutler's stylish losing to Plummer's ugly wins?

What was it.. 42-18 compared to 17-20? I'd had enough of Cutler after the loss to red hot (7 consecutive losses) Buffalo at home. Couldn't believe I froze my ass off to watch nothing but three and outs after the first quarter in a game that meant going to the playoffs or not. Bad Jay wasn't interested.

TheReverend
10-08-2009, 08:56 PM
Cutler can turn the ball over in more way than one. Fumbles also count as turnovers.

And we could look at it this way: in the 5 games that Denver gave up 20 or fewer points, Cutler turned over the ball a total of 2 times. Looks like we tended to do worse defensively when he turned the ball over.

Or we could look at it this way: in the SIX games that Cutler turned the ball over more than once (fumbles and interceptions), the defense gave up an average of 34 points a game. In the 10 that he turned the ball over 1 or fewer times, they allowed an average of 24 points. Multiple turnovers by Cutler may have cost us 10 points per game by these statistics.

That's not even taking into account how many points we LOST because of those turnovers.

I'd take your point to heart if he had lost a fumble in any of those games.

baja
10-08-2009, 08:57 PM
What was it.. 42-18 compared to 17-20? I'd had enough of Cutler after the loss to red hot (7 consecutive losses) Buffalo at home. Couldn't believe I froze my ass off to watch nothing but three and outs after the first quarter in a game that meant going to the playoffs or not. Bad Jay wasn't interested.

That's what did it for me too. For me that became his statement game, when it mattered he didn't show up.

TheReverend
10-08-2009, 08:58 PM
Yeah, they’ve been through a gauntlet. ::) At least we have beaten a team with a winning record.

The Steelers and Packers are both much better than anything we've played.

dextermilo
10-08-2009, 09:08 PM
Thoughts after reading this thread...

- Jay's deep ball is bad. Best one I can remember last season was under thrown but Royal adjusted at the last possible second to fool the CB.

- It wasn't the fact that Cutler threw INTs that really annoyed me it was the fact that some of his choices were so DUMB it was embarrassing.

- Jay is exceptionally talented. Most talented guy that I have ever been happy to see go. Mostly because he is a moronic little s***. Watching Rivers and Cutler I can't decide which one I like less.

- Cutler ... under pressure .. AVOIDS THE TACKLE ... Spins out of another ... rolls right ... throws a bullet down the sideline ... INTERCEPTED... Some of those interceptions were clearly exceptional.

- Orton needs to get off to better starts.

- Orton will never be Cutler ... THANK GOD.

- Orton will never be John Elway ... damn.

misturanderson
10-08-2009, 09:18 PM
well, thats why they call it the deep ball. Because its hard to hit them. Sure he over/underthrew a lot. But he also nailed a bunch in his time too.

Just because he didnt hit the wr in stride everytime doesnt mean he cant throw the deep ball either. Most of the time he gave the wr a chance to atleast make a play on the ball. Some he whiffed, but most were underthrown and we got hands on it.

Lets not forget that that was his 2nd year playing 3rd in the league?

He seems to have corrected some of that this year. Hester and Knox can attest to that.

Sorry, but this just isn't true. Cutler had impressive accuracy and velocity on passes that went about 10-25 yards downfield through the air, but he had bad touch on his deep passes and usually threw them into double coverage where they were broken up and when he didn't, he rarely hit his receiver in stride. Everyone sees his arm and thinks that he had great deep accuracy, but he hit maybe 4 good passes that were in the air for more than 25 yards downfield.

That 15-25 yard downfield range is where he holds a distinct advantage over Orton due to his velocity. That is the only area that I see Cutler as a definitively superior passer to Orton. Shorter than that and it doesn't matter that much, and longer than that and Cutler just wasn't that much better.

He's probably the best QB in the history of the game at throwing of his back foot though.

misturanderson
10-08-2009, 09:26 PM
I'd take your point to heart if he had lost a fumble in any of those games.

He lost a fumble in the Raiders game that we lost, so my point is still valid, but you're right, he didn't lose very many last year in games where we gave up more than 30. His only other lost fumble was against Jacksonville.

Cito Pelon
10-08-2009, 09:31 PM
I wouldn't mind having Cutler on the team still, but the stinking punk didn't want to be in Denver.

Also, it's very debatable whether or not he would be the difference in even making the SB.

misturanderson
10-08-2009, 09:32 PM
The Steelers and Packers are both much better than anything we've played.

That's weird since one of the teams we beat on the road beat the packers at Lambeau the very next week and then they actually went and beat Pittsburgh right after that. Eerie.

steeledude
10-08-2009, 09:36 PM
I think he has a point here. We started the season as a team no one believed, for the most part, and myself included. I am completely floored by the performance the defense has put out, and I am happy for the guys. In addition to that our offense, which was extremely effective and potent last year (despite the spin of people saying it wasn't--it's as big a smoke screen as the H1N1 virus being feared on such a widespread basis), has become very steady. And boring.

But the combination has worked for the Denver Broncos. I can't see how adding an amazing QB back into the equation wouldn't equal powerhouse. Last year when Cutler debuted we were a powerhouse. Then injuries set in, our defense couldn't do a thing for us, and the running game--no matter how effective in terms of yardage, became a liability because no teams had to gameplan for our running. Why would you? We had a different runningback every week.

In the end, with this defense, and Cutler still here we could really talk about playoffs. Right now I'd say the Broncos aren't much different than those teams that went to the playoffs to be blown out by the Colts--except reversed. Our offense won't keep us in the game. Orton is incapable of using the amazing WR talent we have. Defenses are going to shut the guy down, it's just a matter of time.

I also heard someone say that if we kept Cutler we wouldn't have Ayers, Moreno, or Smith. I disagree. We would still have Moreno most likely. The other guys have done nothing to contribute to our stalwart D. They may in the future, I'm not dogging them, but as of today, it was free agency signings, new scheme, and our best defensive players (Williams and Bailey) being fully recovered.

Jay Cutler wasn't taking us to the playoffs last year. This year he would have, and we could have a shot at the superbowl.

skpac1001
10-08-2009, 09:51 PM
I'd take your point to heart if he had lost a fumble in any of those games.

Thanks again Hochuli. I still love hearing the Chargers pout about that game.

misturanderson
10-08-2009, 10:06 PM
Thanks again Hochuli. I still love hearing the Chargers pout about that game.

I'm guessing most of them got over it right around the time that they layed a 52-21 beatdown on us to make the playoffs while keeping us out.

TDmvp
10-08-2009, 10:22 PM
Wait.. you preferred cutler's stylish losing to Plummer's ugly wins?

What was it.. 42-18 compared to 17-20? I'd had enough of Cutler after the loss to red hot (7 consecutive losses) Buffalo at home. Couldn't believe I froze my ass off to watch nothing but three and outs after the first quarter in a game that meant going to the playoffs or not. Bad Jay wasn't interested.


AND FOR LIKE THE 1267th time

I WAS A JAKE HOMER ...

and have defended him over and over here , But stop gap is just being honest ... and I Don't think he should have been benched until / if Jay earned the gig the next year , or even 2 years IF Jake played at a high lvl and we went deep in the playoffs like we was vs Pit.


I also think drafting Jay was the correct move . We never draft high in the 1st cause we are never 4-12 so having someone with Cutler's skill set fall to us was a once in a decade chance you have to take.


Jake was great for us and WAY under rated here at the mane by many...
If Shanny got Jake at 23 years old he would have been really good and maybe great if he could of fought off the mental errors ...

I always say just look at his record in Denver.


But to get back on topic Bombay ... Jake was a stop gap . period . because of his age and Cutler was a once in a decade get for a Broncos team that NEVER plays terrible football to be drafting in the top 5 where Qbs with those type of skills are found...




Kyle is a good qb ... there is a lot worse , I rather have Kyle then Romo right off the top of my head ... But not many good Qbs win super bowls . They are usually at least special in one way besides not turning it over and making good decisions.


since 1975 "year i was born" only say 5/6 teams have won super bowls with Qbs I would say are close to Kyle in talent and production .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Super_Bowl_champions

Kaylore
10-08-2009, 10:33 PM
I think in a world where McDaniels could work with Cutler then the premise is correct: We would be a better team with Cutler being the good soldier and doing everything that McDaniels wanted because he is much more talented than Orton.

That said, they couldn't/wouldn't work together. Whether you believe this is because McDaniels has "poor people skills" and "is a jerk that made him want to leave," or you believe that Cutler didn't like how McDaniels wasn't kissing his ass the way Shanahan was and when he told him he needed to improve he got butt hurt and left, it doesn't matter. They couldn't work with each other so this fantasy scenario of them being a good match doesn't/couldn't exist.

I think long term both will be ok and I believe McDaniels has the goods to have us regularly playing in and winning playoff games.

And let me go on record right now and say that if Nolan leaves, McDaniels will have someone in who will keep the defense solid.

And Whitlock is just jealous because his Chiefs have been and will be garbage forever.

skpac1001
10-08-2009, 10:35 PM
I'm guessing most of them got over it right around the time that they layed a 52-21 beatdown on us to make the playoffs while keeping us out.

That's probably true, but I block that game out and only acknowledge the earlier game.

hambone13
10-08-2009, 10:37 PM
I think in a world where McDaniels could work with Cutler then the premise is correct: We would be a better team with Cutler being the good soldier and doing everything that McDaniels wanted because he is much more talented than Orton.

That said, they couldn't/wouldn't work together. Whether you believe this is because McDaniels has "poor people skills" and "is a jerk that made him want to leave," or you believe that Cutler didn't like how McDaniels wasn't kissing his ass the way Shanahan was and when he told him he needed to improve he got butt hurt and left, it doesn't matter. They couldn't work with each other so this fantasy scenario of them being a good match doesn't/couldn't exist.

I think long term both will be ok and I believe McDaniels has the goods to have us regularly playing in and winning playoff games.

And let me go on record right now and say that if Nolan leaves, McDaniels will have someone in who will keep the defense solid.

And Whitlock is just jealous because his Chiefs have been and will be garbage forever.

I want more details on your faith in McD as the master influence on the D.

skpac1001
10-08-2009, 10:42 PM
I want more details on your faith in McD as the master influence on the D.

Well, he chose the D coordinator, told him what style of D he wanted and helped pick an immediate transfer to the 3-4 (according to interviews with Nolan), was a big factor in Dawkins coming here (according to Dawkins), and worked with the GM to bring in the free agents who turned it around. What specifically are you looking for? Hill, Goodman, and Holliday are likely brought in thanks to his familiarity with them, as well as the Pat D lineman. I don't know who selected the D position coaches or put the emphasis on relearning the basics at camp, but since offense shows the same approach it is a fair bet he had some influence on it.

baja
10-08-2009, 10:42 PM
I think he has a point here. We started the season as a team no one believed, for the most part, and myself included. I am completely floored by the performance the defense has put out, and I am happy for the guys. In addition to that our offense, which was extremely effective and potent last year (despite the spin of people saying it wasn't--it's as big a smoke screen as the H1N1 virus being feared on such a widespread basis), has become very steady. And boring.

But the combination has worked for the Denver Broncos. I can't see how adding an amazing QB back into the equation wouldn't equal powerhouse. Last year when Cutler debuted we were a powerhouse. Then injuries set in, our defense couldn't do a thing for us, and the running game--no matter how effective in terms of yardage, became a liability because no teams had to gameplan for our running. Why would you? We had a different runningback every week.

In the end, with this defense, and Cutler still here we could really talk about playoffs. Right now I'd say the Broncos aren't much different than those teams that went to the playoffs to be blown out by the Colts--except reversed. Our offense won't keep us in the game. <b>Orton is incapable of using the amazing WR talent we have. Defenses are going to shut the guy down, it's just a matter of time.</b>

I also heard someone say that if we kept Cutler we wouldn't have Ayers, Moreno, or Smith. I disagree. We would still have Moreno most likely. The other guys have done nothing to contribute to our stalwart D. They may in the future, I'm not dogging them, but as of today, it was free agency signings, new scheme, and our best defensive players (Williams and Bailey) being fully recovered.

Jay Cutler wasn't taking us to the playoffs last year. This year he would have, and we could have a shot at the superbowl.

I think what this poster and many others as well are not considering is that Orton in all likelihood will get better and quite possibly much better. There are many good reasons to look forward to this end.

Orton has improved every week.

It took Cassel half a season to really become fully functional in this system.

McD is the architect that designed the most prolific offense ever

McD has proven to be a skilled teacher.

Orton is a committed & and capable student who wants to learn.

Orton has great offensive support in every position.

Orton has a D that will give him opportunities with the ball.

Dagmar
10-08-2009, 10:46 PM
http://www.ls1.com/forums/images/smilies/tumbleweed.gif

SportinOne
10-08-2009, 10:46 PM
I'm not reading seven pages of current-era OM material, sorry.

However, enough's enough. Give the guy a ****ing break. Yeah, he mishandled the situation. He also turned the worst defense in the NFL into, so far, THE BEST.
I'm sure most of us have thought, "What if we had Cutler this year..." at some point, but at some point you have to forget about it.

azbroncfan
10-08-2009, 10:52 PM
I am going to have to agree with Whitlock on this one.

Broncos were 20-3 with Jay Cutler when the defense held the opponents to less than 20 points.

All QB's will have a great record when the Defense only gives up 20 or less.

misturanderson
10-08-2009, 11:00 PM
All QB's will have a great record when the Defense only gives up 20 or less.

Kyle Orton is 17-3 in those situations.I'm actually suprised that Cutler has been in 23 games that the defense held the other team to 20 or less.

hambone13
10-08-2009, 11:03 PM
Well, he chose the D coordinator, told him what style of D he wanted and helped pick an immediate transfer to the 3-4 (according to interviews with Nolan), was a big factor in Dawkins coming here (according to Dawkins), and worked with the GM to bring in the free agents who turned it around. What specifically are you looking for? Hill, Goodman, and Holliday are likely brought in thanks to his familiarity with them, as well as the Pat D lineman. I don't know who selected the D position coaches or put the emphasis on relearning the basics at camp, but since offense shows the same approach it is a fair bet he had some influence on it.

McD has looked pretty solid on personnel over the spectrum of his limited tenure here. It doesn't change the fact that he rookied through the Cutler situation. Frankly, it seems to me, the situation taught both of them some humility.

Back to the point..... major decisions are simple to make...just make 'em. Executing on those decisions are what makes the necessary things happen to your accomplish your goal and where credit is due. Nolan has executed the vision...

Rudeboy
10-08-2009, 11:05 PM
Just have to love the HaterAid the majority of you guys like to drink over here at the Mane. We could be freaking 10-0 and most of you would still be crying about Cutlet...

I guess most of you conviently like to forget that Cutlet was a turnover magnet. If it wasn't droped snaps, or INT's at the wrong moment, it was fumblist or INT's at the wrong moment (echo?..)...

Don't get me wrong our Defense was absolutly horrible last year, but when you have a QB that likes to force the ball and then put the Defense in a bad posistion then it makes that Defense even worse. I can't tell you how many times Cutlet set us up to fail last year. But he Won us so many games last year, sure he did, but he also shot us in the rear time and time agian.

Add that to the fact that he is a piss poor leader and a finger pointing crybaby and im glad that scrub is gone, most of you should be too. All of these scrubs in the media who promised we would suck and many of you here had it wrong then and you have it wrong now, whats new?...

After this bye week Cutlet starts to play some real teams, holla at me then about how we would be a Superbowl team with this Jay "Cry me a River" Cutlet.

Taco John
10-08-2009, 11:08 PM
This is actually a very good thread.

hambone13
10-08-2009, 11:11 PM
This is actually a very good thread.

It's insightful and detailed responses such as this that has kept it alive! !Booya!

hambone13
10-08-2009, 11:12 PM
Just have to love the HaterAid the majority of you guys like to drink over here at the Mane. We could be freaking 10-0 and most of you would still be crying about Cutlet...

I guess most of you conviently like to forget that Cutlet was a turnover magnet. If it wasn't droped snaps, or INT's at the wrong moment, it was fumblist or INT's at the wrong moment (echo?..)...

Don't get me wrong our Defense was absolutly horrible last year, but when you have a QB that likes to force the ball and then put the Defense in a bad posistion then it makes that Defense even worse. I can't tell you how many times Cutlet set us up to fail last year. But he Won us so many games last year, sure he did, but he also shot us in the rear time and time agian.

Add that to the fact that he is a piss poor leader and a finger pointing crybaby and im glad that scrub is gone, most of you should be too. All of these scrubs in the media who promised we would suck and many of you here had it wrong then and you have it wrong now, whats new?...

After this bye week Cutlet starts to play some real teams, holla at me then about how we would be a Superbowl team with this Jay "Cry me a River" Cutlet.

Jeez....read a little before you repeat the same sophomoric banter as all your amateur predecessors

baja
10-08-2009, 11:26 PM
Predecessor

hambone13
10-08-2009, 11:29 PM
Predecessor

Ahem...thx man...a couple more beers might help next time

Gort
10-09-2009, 12:16 AM
I love the 4-0 start as much as anybody, but it's like the elephant in the room you can't ignore it. We would all love the have the killer defense and still have, Culter, Marshall and Royal hanging 40 on our opponents....

the Broncos scored 21 or fewer points 8 TIMES in 2008. they scored 24 or fewer points 11 TIMES.

this whole idea that Cutler made the Broncos a potent offense is a myth. he was a human turnover machine, especially in the red zone. they could march up and down the field all day, but they couldn't score to save their life or their season.

broncocalijohn
10-09-2009, 12:28 AM
Oh, hi Dad!!!!

I hate the Elway comparison, but since you brought it up...
Elway lost quite a few Super Bowls before he got some help. I guess he wasn't a franchise QB since he couldn't "will" the team to victory in those games.

Be more delusional.

God, you arent the smartest and maybe keep away from posting like you have done so far. Elway GOT US TO THE SUPER BOWL! We only asked Cutler to get us one win out of four TO GET US TO THE PLAYOFFS! See, big difference. Elway had those superstars that are waiting to get into the Pro Bowl like Winder and Willhite. He made those receivers special not the other way around. He never had the talent some of these QBs have now or then. Even though he lost 3 Super Bowls, I was still proud of making it to the big game. Your come back needs some work. Try again.

Bronco Yoda
10-09-2009, 12:51 AM
... Yup

We went from having a Qb that could make us contenders for a decade , to ONCE AGAIN much like during the Plummer years having a STOP GAP QB...

I love the start , I love the way the guys are giving it their all.
But looking back at this for the next 10 years is going to suck @$$.

Now I'm not bagging on you for this.... we're all fans here... but you gotta keep it in context. You're making too much out of it. Sure, Cutler has very good upside (whether he ever matures to this level remains to be seen) but he's never going to be an Elway, manning, Young, Marion, etc...

He also developed a very serious health condition.

Players get hurt, get traded, lose their mojo, retire etc...

Not all is lost here. If Orton doesn't work out then we'll find someone else. Someone tailor made for our system for the upcoming years.

The only thing that's going to suck is for faider, chefs and lightning bug fans watching our domination.

Mark it down!