PDA

View Full Version : Peter King compares Cutler to Bledsoe and Orton to Bra....


BMarsh615
10-05-2009, 07:36 AM
3. Feel-good story of the year? Denver. I'm looking at notes from a couple of interviews I did with Josh McDaniels -- one on the weekend the Jay Cutler story was blowing up in March, then next from training camp seven weeks ago today. "If we win, none of this will matter, and if we lose, then we blew it,'' he said in March. Five months later, he said, "We just need to start playing games. Whoever's on your team, all that matters is winning or losing.'' I guarantee you that's the vibe he sent to his team.

Whether Denver's a championship team or not -- and allowing an insane 6.5 points per game through four weeks suggests they'll battle San Diego for the AFC West title -- there's one thing you have to love about the Broncos: They've got a Patriot way (what a coincidence!) of tuning out the outside crappola and focusing on the only thing that matters -- the next play. They tuned out the Jay Cutler thing. They tuned out the Brandon Marshall distraction. That's not easy in an NFL-crazy market like Denver, but McDaniels did it. "DO YOUR JOB'' is the gigantic wall art in the Broncos' team meeting room, something McDaniels brought with him from New England and his mentor, Bill Belichick. And it's what his players are doing.

Now let's do a mini-analysis of the biggest decision of the off-season, Denver dealing Cutler for two first-rounders and Kyle Orton. It reminds me of the Patriots dealing Drew Bledsoe in 2002 and handing the quarterback job long-term to Tom Brady. Bledsoe, the independent-thinking mad bomber; Brady, the caretaker who'll follow the gameplan to a T. Just substitute Cutler for Bledsoe and Kyle Orton for Brady and you've got McDaniels' line of thinking. Now, I'm not saying (and McDaniels wouldn't either) that Orton's going to morph into Brady, but the amount of negative plays at the quarterback position has been exactly what McDaniels has preached: zero interceptions, zero lost fumbles, six sacks. If Orton continues on his present pace -- 3,624 passing yards, 20 touchdowns, 59 percent passing (that should be a tick better) -- the Broncos will be playing in January.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writers/peter_king/10/04/mmqb.week.4/index.html

He also ranked us number 5 on his power rankings.

5. Denver (4-0). I still don't know how good the Broncos are. But they're this high for this reason: 26 points allowed in four games, by far the lowest in the league. That's a touch less per game than any team in football. Amazing. Totally unexpected. Josh McDaniels for governor. Mike Nolan for mayor. Elvis Dumervil for ... well, whatever he wants.

He also named Brandon Marshall one of his offensive players of the week.

Offensive Players of the Week

Brandon Marshall, WR, Denver

There's a reason the Broncos have put up with so much guff regarding Marshall, and that reason was abundantly clear with 1:46 left in a tense 10-10 tie with Dallas at Invesco. Kyle Orton hit him in tight coverage by Dallas cornerback Terence Newman, and Marshall weaved the last 30 yards through five Cowboys to score the game-winner.

Named Champ one of his Defensive players of the week

Champ Bailey, CB, Denver

Money players like Bailey do what he did in the final 30 seconds of the aforementioned tight game with Dallas. On third-and-goal from the Denver 2, Tony Romo threw a slant in the end zone to Sam Hurd; Bailey knocked it away. On fourth-and-goal from the Denver 2, Romo threw another slant to Hurd in the end zone; Bailey reached around him to knock it away. For the game, Bailey was back to his old wily self, with eight solo tackles and four passes broken up. For those who thought Bailey was in decline, think again..

Named Josh McDaniels coach of the week

Coach of the Week

Josh McDaniels, head coach, Denver

Don't trade Jay Cutler, McDaniels was told. Kyle Orton can't play, McDaniels was told. You'll never win in Denver with a popgun offense, McDaniels was told. Brandon Marshall's too much of a distraction and you should dump him, McDaniels was told. Here's what no one told McDaniels: You'll be 4-0 after the first month of the season.

From his 10 things I think I think
e. I'm also serious when I say: You can't stop Elvis Dumervil; you can only hope to contain him.

b. Denver punter Brett Kern was a field-position guru against Dallas, with four punts from Denver territory averaging 55.3 yards.

barryr
10-05-2009, 07:41 AM
The McDaniels' bashers are having a disappointing season so far.

TheReverend
10-05-2009, 09:10 AM
The McDaniels' bashers are having a disappointing season so far.

Really? Because I'm pretty ecstatic.

Tombstone RJ
10-05-2009, 09:18 AM
Really? Because I'm pretty ecstatic.

Really, your happy? Are you sure? Must be all the crow you're eating. Must be Chocolote Creme, Banana Fudge, Caramel Swirl Fat Phuggin Crow Pie that your munching on.

Yummy!

BroncoInSkinland
10-05-2009, 09:38 AM
Really, your happy? Are you sure? Must be all the crow you're eating. Must be Chocolote Creme, Banana Fudge, Caramel Swirl Fat Phuggin Crow Pie that your munching on.

Yummy!

I'll have some too. And yes, enjoying it greatly, as I always said I would if I was wrong. I couldn't be happier to tell you the honest truth. :)

BMarsh615
10-05-2009, 09:50 AM
Really, your happy? Are you sure? Must be all the crow you're eating. Must be Chocolote Creme, Banana Fudge, Caramel Swirl Fat Phuggin Crow Pie that your munching on.

Yummy!
What Bronco fan wouldn't be happy with a 4-0 record? It doesn't matter who was right or wrong... Denver is winning! The offseason did look kind of bleak.

lifeafter elway
10-05-2009, 10:04 AM
Eating crow here too - never thought it would taste so good!

I know most of us had hoped all along we where wrong, but I just couldn't see it. Still think Orton has a ways to go, but with this defense, I think he has time to figure it all out.
I do think his arm is strong enough, he made some throws yesterday - but he often errs on the safe side. If the defender is short, he overthrows, and if he is deep, he underthrows. Hopefully it will work itself out.

And he's a lucky sumbitch too - that throw to Knowshon scared the crap outta me. But sometimes its better to be lucky than good!

dbfan21
10-05-2009, 10:55 AM
I like the average that Kern has on his punts. Field position was a huge problem with us last year (and the years before that, for that matter). But Kern has done nicely so far.

And how many of you weren't surtprised that Prater sent the ball through the uprights on his last kickoff. There was so much adrenaline after Marshall's TD, he killed that ball!! :thumbsup:

Popps
10-05-2009, 11:19 AM
Orton is no Tom Brady.

I love the guy, but Tom Brady is a QB for the ages. It's still to put those kinds of comparisons to Kyle.

What he is... is a guy that can take care of the ball and make smart decisions to help us win games. He's got a knack for making key plays at key times, and a lot of stuff that's just never going to show up on paper.

I think when he loses that glove and continues to gain confidence in this offense, he's going to get even better. I also think our receivers are still picking it up. Eddie Royal looks covered... all the time. Something is just not right with him, yet. (For example.)

I have faith in Orton and McD to execute a game-plan that gives us a chance to win. But, it all comes down to running the ball and playing defense. That's playoff-style football and finally... it appears we're returning to that style of play....

and I love it.

UberBroncoMan
10-05-2009, 11:20 AM
I'm not truly celebrating unless I see us 5-1 or 6-0 heading into the bye, even if I'm happy we're 4-0. (I'll take a NE loss if it means a SD win).

Our offense need's to get it's damn act together... particularly in the passing game. Royal needs to be our Welker, and Marshall our Moss... and Scheffler needs to be owning them on play action.

BroncoInSkinland
10-05-2009, 11:28 AM
I'm very happy with the results of the trade, at 4-0 who wouldn't be. But in adition to Orton not being Brady, Cutler is IMO better than Bledsoe. Bledsoe was good, but Cutler's mobility adds another dimension. That lack of mobility was what led to Bledsoes eventual downfall in Dallas. If the tradeoff for Cutler was this team mentality allowing our D to be who they have become I will gladly take it, but it is not nearly as cut and dry as the Bledsoe vs Brady situation.

enjolras
10-05-2009, 11:35 AM
We haven't even seen Orton at even close to his best. I really do think that finger injury is far worse than we've thought. Watching his throws from last year, compared to now is like night and day.

lex
10-05-2009, 11:38 AM
I'm very happy with the results of the trade, at 4-0 who wouldn't be. But in adition to Orton not being Brady, Cutler is IMO better than Bledsoe. Bledsoe was good, but Cutler's mobility adds another dimension. That lack of mobility was what led to Bledsoes eventual downfall in Dallas. If the tradeoff for Cutler was this team mentality allowing our D to be who they have become I will gladly take it, but it is not nearly as cut and dry as the Bledsoe vs Brady situation.

The scores on the trade wont be in for a long time...several years maybe.

BroncoFiend
10-05-2009, 11:38 AM
I'm not truly celebrating unless I see us 5-1 or 6-0 heading into the bye, even if I'm happy we're 4-0. (I'll take a NE loss if it means a SD win).

Our offense need's to get it's damn act together... particularly in the passing game. Royal needs to be our Welker, and Marshall our Moss... and Scheffler needs to be owning them on play action.

I hate to agree with a negative comment on such a positive day. But hope is now fully alive, so now to really compete with the big boys, our offense needs to get in sync. All the pieces are there, we just need to get it going. Hopefully that starts this week.

Bigdawg26
10-05-2009, 11:39 AM
Yeah I would be the first one to say that I WAS WRONG ABOUT MCDANIELS, but to even compare Kyle Orton to tom brady is insane.. Maybe a Brian Griese before shanny gave him a contract, but Tom Brady c'mon man no way no how...

Killericon
10-05-2009, 11:45 AM
The good thing about bashing your team's decisions is that if you're right, you get that small pleasure. If you're wrong, WHO CARES BECAUSE YOU'RE ****ING 4-0!

WOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Meanwhile, it's funny to see Peter King trying to hop on the bandwagon here.

Merlin
10-05-2009, 12:08 PM
It's an incredibly poor analogy (both QB are far different from the QBs they are being compared to), but I can also see PK's point. However, I don't think McD has anything to do with NEs offense when that took place, much less the decision making process. Plus Brady even then was a better QB than Bledsoe (look at NE's record before Bledsoe got hurt and after). Conversely, KO in Chicago probably is at best 1-3 with the team they have now (and their lack of running game), whereas Cutler would very likely be 4-0 here. But who cares, if we can do without Cutler, all the better, that is a boatload of money that can be used elsewhere.

colonelbeef
10-05-2009, 12:09 PM
I'm very happy with the results of the trade, at 4-0 who wouldn't be. But in adition to Orton not being Brady, Cutler is IMO better than Bledsoe. Bledsoe was good, but Cutler's mobility adds another dimension. That lack of mobility was what led to Bledsoes eventual downfall in Dallas. If the tradeoff for Cutler was this team mentality allowing our D to be who they have become I will gladly take it, but it is not nearly as cut and dry as the Bledsoe vs Brady situation.

It's a terrible analogy. Peter King just needed to work his beloved Brady into the sentence somehow.

Broncos4tw
10-05-2009, 12:11 PM
I'm impressed with how well McD has prepared the team each week, and I love our halftime adjustments, they have really gone up a notch from years gone by. The last few years, I felt our halftime adjustments were pretty bad, overall.

I'm still not impressed with Orton. I AM happy he is not tossing a lot of ints (well none.. should have had one yesterday, but we lucked out), but he is also missing wide open receivers, over throwing, under throwing, and in general, being pretty average.

The day our defense is not getting it done, and they play to stop our running game.. can we win on Orton's arm? I don't see how, still.

Pseudofool
10-05-2009, 12:13 PM
Meh. It's a comparison like that that totally undercuts King's acumen as an analyst altogether. He's a fine writer, and let's hope he got carried away--and was trying to compare situations and not directly the players. Say, if he was making a claim about Josh's ideology and decision-making rather than a prognosis about how good Orton can be I'm alright with it. But on its face, the comparison is pretty silly and loose.

SureShot
10-05-2009, 12:17 PM
Really? Because I'm pretty ecstatic.

No kidding! How could anyone not enjoy what is going on right now?

cabronco
10-05-2009, 12:30 PM
I'm not truly celebrating unless I see us 5-1 or 6-0 heading into the bye, even if I'm happy we're 4-0. (I'll take a NE loss if it means a SD win).

Our offense need's to get it's damn act together... particularly in the passing game. Royal needs to be our Welker, and Marshall our Moss... and Scheffler needs to be owning them on play action.


Speaking of Scheffler, he quietly had a decent game yesterday catching some off target passes that most te's couldnt catch. I agree the way we were running the ball, sometimes not enough, it should of set up well for play action .

NYBronco
10-05-2009, 04:57 PM
I think Kyle will continue to improve in this offense and once he loses the glove and the hand has healed he should look much sharper. My concern is with all the penalties throughout the offense making it difficult for Kyle to get into any kind of "groove".

Our drive starting field position was horrible, again. But, we managed to get ourselves out of harms way through special, defensive and offensive team play. Good team win.

epicSocialism4tw
10-05-2009, 05:12 PM
This guy is PERFECT for this team.

http://dnews.isgreat.org/8403.jpg

Mr. Elway
10-05-2009, 05:15 PM
This guy is PERFECT for this team.

http://dnews.isgreat.org/8403.jpg

aren't you supposed to grip the laces?

broncofan7
10-05-2009, 05:16 PM
This guy is PERFECT for this team.

http://dnews.isgreat.org/8403.jpg

Indeed.

cabronco
10-05-2009, 05:17 PM
This guy is PERFECT for this team.

http://dnews.isgreat.org/8403.jpg

I totally agree and hope we find a way to get him.

elsid13
10-05-2009, 05:20 PM
It is horrible lazy comparison, situation is not even close to being similiar. Orton has played ok, his biggest success has been his ultra conservative protection of the ball, and I highly doubt one will ever see the production that Brady produce in similar offense.

rastaman
10-05-2009, 05:24 PM
This guy is PERFECT for this team.

http://dnews.isgreat.org/8403.jpg

What magic would need to be required to get this guy? McD gave Seattle our number 1 pick and Cutler will ensure the Bears will have winning playoff bound season, thus negating the possibility of draft in the top 10 with Chicago's number 1 pick.

The Broncos do need to try and a "Ryan, Sandchez, or Flacco in the draft btwn 2010 and 2011.

tonngo0
10-05-2009, 05:25 PM
I'm very happy with the results of the trade, at 4-0 who wouldn't be. But in adition to Orton not being Brady, Cutler is IMO better than Bledsoe. Bledsoe was good, but Cutler's mobility adds another dimension. That lack of mobility was what led to Bledsoes eventual downfall in Dallas. If the tradeoff for Cutler was this team mentality allowing our D to be who they have become I will gladly take it, but it is not nearly as cut and dry as the Bledsoe vs Brady situation.

Cutler was not trade for the D, the only D player is Ayer, and he has not done much to help the D yet.

atomicbloke
10-05-2009, 05:26 PM
Did everyone forget about Tom Brandstater already?

Aah.... the memories from pre-season...

elsid13
10-05-2009, 05:26 PM
What magic would need to be required to get this guy? McD gave Seattle our number 1 pick and Cutler will ensure the Bears will have winning playoff bound season, thus negating the possibility of draft in the top 10 with Chicago's number 1 pick.

The Broncos do need to try and a "Ryan, Sandchez, or Flacco in the draft btwn 2010 and 2011.

Don't get caught in the hype. Bradford is very good college QB, but I don't think he as productive in the pros, where his lack of arm strength and mobility will cause him to struggle.

2KBack
10-05-2009, 05:28 PM
people are letting the Tom Brady of the last few seasons blind them to Tom Brady his first season as a starter. He threw for less than 3000 yards, 18 TD's, and 12 ints. He wasn't a play maker, he was a manager that season.

The Bledsoe and Brady comparison I think is valid, at least from the perspective of the types of players.

elsid13
10-05-2009, 05:39 PM
people are letting the Tom Brady of the last few seasons blind them to Tom Brady his first season as a starter. He threw for less than 3000 yards, 18 TD's, and 12 ints. He wasn't a play maker, he was a manager that season.

The Bledsoe and Brady comparison I think is valid, at least from the perspective of the types of players.

What do you mean type of players?

BroncoInSkinland
10-05-2009, 05:44 PM
Cutler was not trade for the D, the only D player is Ayer, and he has not done much to help the D yet.

I respect and understand your view point, I just no longer agree with it. We have seen teams here for three seasons that had a more talented QB, and more highly touted defensive players in the draft and free agency (with the possible exception of a few aging DB's we picked up this year). But those teams did not perform as well. Bringing in Nolan was a huge step in the right direction, getting a DC whose system was far more functional than in previous years, but I have come to believe that just as important as that was the change in team mentality.

A team first view, with all players working towards the same goal, a win, not their own individual stat lines. McDaniels and Nolan were responsible for that change in team mentality, and the price of bringing them in was losing Cutler. Hence Cutler affecting the team mentality on the D side of the ball. Additionally, if Cutler or Marshall had pressured the staff into letting them act as they wanted the entire team first message would have been undermined.

I still think McDaniels could have forced Jay to live up to his contract, but that was not the direction he decided to go. At 4-0, with quality wins over Dallas and Cincinnati I will concede that point to him, and offer thanks for bringing a solid defense effort, my favorite part of football, back to my favorite team.

2KBack
10-05-2009, 05:44 PM
What do you mean type of players?

big arm "franchise" gunslinger QB replaced by conservative, play within the system "back up" QB.

BroncoBuff
10-05-2009, 05:51 PM
big arm "franchise" gunslinger QB replaced by conservative, play within the system "back up" QB.

I'd prefer to call Kyle a "Dilfer-type low-risk game manager who's doesn't get in the way of the defense and running backs."

BroncoBuff
10-05-2009, 05:54 PM
And I don't mind admitting I am hugely and happily surprised he has ZERO ints.

elsid13
10-05-2009, 05:58 PM
big arm "franchise" gunslinger QB replaced by conservative, play within the system "back up" QB.

See I do even think the two (Cutler and Bledsoe) are even close to same player when you compare skill sets. Cutler is young, vastly more mobile, rarely takes a hit, has quick release and has better feel for the game. Blediso was pretty much statute, with long delivery that was always being hit, and didn't have that clock that you need to be successful. Plus Bledsoe was his mid thirties when he was traded.

Meanwhile Brady was much more then back-up system QB. Brady has excelled in that system, but he would have been just as successful in traditional WCO. He has quick release, accuracy great timing, above average arm (not elite but he can hit the 15 yard deep out) and very good pocket mobility. Orton is Orton.

BroncoBuff
10-05-2009, 06:04 PM
Cutler and Bledsoe don't resemble one another much at all ....

Orton and Brady, ummm ... errr .... ::)

BroncoInSkinland
10-05-2009, 06:05 PM
Cutler and Bledsoe don't resemble one another much at all ....

Orton and Brady, ummm ... errr .... ::)

Oh c'mon if Brady grew a n'eard they would be twins ;)

Ironlung
10-05-2009, 06:14 PM
Peter King is obviously a orangeglasses wearin, nuthuggin, homer, sheep, idiot...... what else?.. I can't remember all the haters favorite bronco bashin terms.

cutthemdown
10-05-2009, 06:27 PM
He's not comparing the way they play. He's comparing the results.

He has just as good a football body as brady. Brady gets so much protection from the NFL its not even funny. He wouldn't have lasted 3 yrs back in the mid 80's playing against people Elway made his bones against. The game was mean back then on QBS. You could hit them after they threw as long as you only took one step LOL!!! Cmon!!!.

Orton playing hurt right now. Our own resident Broncostein was saying no way you play in 2 weeks with an open dislocation.

Chances are Broncos have been shooting that finger up with a numbing agent before and at halftime. Who knows.

For sure though Orton will get 10-15% better when that cut heals and the glove comes off. It's been what 5 weeks since he hurt it? 6 weeks maybe? I'd say by after our bye week he should be 100% He may even get glove off for next week who knows.

2KBack
10-05-2009, 06:28 PM
See I do even think the two (Cutler and Bledsoe) are even close to same player when you compare skill sets. Cutler is young, vastly more mobile, rarely takes a hit, has quick release and has better feel for the game. Blediso was pretty much statute, with long delivery that was always being hit, and didn't have that clock that you need to be successful. Plus Bledsoe was his mid thirties when he was traded.

Meanwhile Brady was much more then back-up system QB. Brady has excelled in that system, but he would have been just as successful in traditional WCO. He has quick release, accuracy great timing, above average arm (not elite but he can hit the 15 yard deep out) and very good pocket mobility. Orton is Orton.

You are saying all those things with the knowledge of what Tom Brady has done since then. Brady didn't perform any better in that system his first year than Orton has so far this season. If you judge them based on their projections from college, Orton would actually sound like the better QB for this system. That is in no way a gaurantee that Orton will have similar success to Brady, but their first seasons in this type of system are very comparable.

As for bledsoe, Cutler is a better overall athlete, but that isn't what is being compared. Bledsoe was considered a franchise player, he set franchise records, and led the team to a superbowl. you could easily argue that he meant more to NE than Cutler ever did to Denver, he had a big arm and by most accounts was simply a better passer than Brady. Yet it was Brady that came in and devoted himself to the system and took it farther with his nerve and leadership than Bledsoes arm ever could.

It isn't a comparison of arms, bodies, or atheltic prowess. It is a comparison of circumstances.

rubaiyat
10-05-2009, 07:03 PM
Cutler was not trade for the D, the only D player is Ayer, and he has not done much to help the D yet.

I think he's talking more about the personality of the D than any new pieces.

rubaiyat
10-05-2009, 07:25 PM
He's not comparing the way they play. He's comparing the results.

He has just as good a football body as brady. Brady gets so much protection from the NFL its not even funny. He wouldn't have lasted 3 yrs back in the mid 80's playing against people Elway made his bones against. The game was mean back then on QBS. You could hit them after they threw as long as you only took one step LOL!!! Cmon!!!.

Orton playing hurt right now. Our own resident Broncostein was saying no way you play in 2 weeks with an open dislocation.

Chances are Broncos have been shooting that finger up with a numbing agent before and at halftime. Who knows.

For sure though Orton will get 10-15% better when that cut heals and the glove comes off. It's been what 5 weeks since he hurt it? 6 weeks maybe? I'd say by after our bye week he should be 100% He may even get glove off for next week who knows.

Except that those hits were from people that were slower and not as strong.

tonngo0
10-05-2009, 07:30 PM
I respect and understand your view point, I just no longer agree with it. We have seen teams here for three seasons that had a more talented QB, and more highly touted defensive players in the draft and free agency (with the possible exception of a few aging DB's we picked up this year). But those teams did not perform as well. Bringing in Nolan was a huge step in the right direction, getting a DC whose system was far more functional than in previous years, but I have come to believe that just as important as that was the change in team mentality.

A team first view, with all players working towards the same goal, a win, not their own individual stat lines. McDaniels and Nolan were responsible for that change in team mentality, and the price of bringing them in was losing Cutler. Hence Cutler affecting the team mentality on the D side of the ball. Additionally, if Cutler or Marshall had pressured the staff into letting them act as they wanted the entire team first message would have been undermined.

I still think McDaniels could have forced Jay to live up to his contract, but that was not the direction he decided to go. At 4-0, with quality wins over Dallas and Cincinnati I will concede that point to him, and offer thanks for bringing a solid defense effort, my favorite part of football, back to my favorite team.

I understand your points of view. I believe it is the signing of Dawkin that help. If you see the first two preseason games without Dawkin, the defense was not that good. Since Dawkin starts in the Chicago game, you can see the defense was much better. I bet if you take out Dawkin, and it would be an average defense ... and it is still better than last year. Remember on the last drive the guy the made the saving tackle was Dawkin.

Drek
10-05-2009, 07:36 PM
I'd prefer to call Kyle a "Dilfer-type low-risk game manager who's doesn't get in the way of the defense and running backs."

FYI, Trent Dilfer coming out of college was the 6th overall selection in the draft, from Fresno State, a WAC school. He was a Pro-Bowl QB in his 4th year with the Bucs.

The notion of him as some strictly game managing QB who just didn't get in the way of his defense and running game is entirely built on what he did over a single season in Baltimore. In reality he threw for over 20,000 yards in his NFL career but as a "game manager" he had a QB rating of around 70 and more picks than TDs.

Kyle Orton's best comparable is probably still fellow Purdue alum Drew Brees. Both went to the same college and played in the same spread style offense while there. Both struggled to put up impressive numbers while starting for more traditional offenses early in their careers, but won more games than anyone would've expected of them. Brees found a home in New Orleans in a similar offense to what he ran in college, at which point he broke out and has become a star QB in the NFL. We now get to see if Orton has that same level of potential.

Up until a rough final half year at Purdue Orton was considered the superior QB to Brees and a likely first round pick.

TDmvp
10-05-2009, 07:43 PM
Peter King

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/nfHOQAT0-Mk&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/nfHOQAT0-Mk&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>


that is all ...

BroncoBuff
10-05-2009, 07:51 PM
FYI, Trent Dilfer coming out of college was the 6th overall selection in the draft, from Fresno State, a WAC school. He was a Pro-Bowl QB in his 4th year with the Bucs.

The notion of him as some strictly game managing QB who just didn't get in the way of his defense and running game is entirely built on what he did over a single season in Baltimore. In reality he threw for over 20,000 yards in his NFL career but as a "game manager" he had a QB rating of around 70 and more picks than TDs.

Yes I was referring strictly to the Ravens defense-led Super Bowl year. Remember how Tony Banks kept turning the ball over again and again? I see what you mean about the Brees parallels, but that's a tough comparison.

I knew Dilfer pretty well in college, we played them in the Aloha Bowl in 94 I think. We killed them (of course), but Dilfer threw like 60 passes for 500 yards. Seriously, he had over 500 yards that game.

BroncoInSkinland
10-05-2009, 08:01 PM
I understand your points of view. I believe it is the signing of Dawkin that help. If you see the first two preseason games without Dawkin, the defense was not that good. Since Dawkin starts in the Chicago game, you can see the defense was much better. I bet if you take out Dawkin, and it would be an average defense ... and it is still better than last year. Remember on the last drive the guy the made the saving tackle was Dawkin.

Dawkins was an excellent signing and is a huge part of this defense, both in athletic ability and in leadership qualities, pushing this defense toward the 11 men, 1 objective goal. At the same point in time, Dawkins is the first guy who would tell you one man does not make a team, and if you don't believe him, ask Champ about last year. I had many doubts about this team after what was an incredibly risky off season, I would even go so far as to call it reckless. But regardless of the way we got here, we are at a point where the defense is potent, and I am loving every minute of it while it is here because no one knows how long it will last.

Wes Mantooth
10-05-2009, 08:08 PM
I'm very happy with the results of the trade, at 4-0 who wouldn't be. But in adition to Orton not being Brady, Cutler is IMO better than Bledsoe. Bledsoe was good, but Cutler's mobility adds another dimension. That lack of mobility was what led to Bledsoes eventual downfall in Dallas. If the tradeoff for Cutler was this team mentality allowing our D to be who they have become I will gladly take it, but it is not nearly as cut and dry as the Bledsoe vs Brady situation.

1. Bledsoe led his team to a Superbowl
2. Bledsoe threw for 44k+ yards
3. Bledsoe had a career QB rating of 77

BroncoInSkinland
10-05-2009, 08:20 PM
1. Bledsoe led his team to a Superbowl
2. Bledsoe threw for 44k+ yards
3. Bledsoe had a career QB rating of 77

Agreed and Jay needs to show the leadership ability and longevity to move his team and himself toward those points. At the same point in time, for the purposes of this argument, Jay is younger, and a much better physical specimen at he time of the trade than Bledsoe, who was nearing the end of his career, was. I would have many fewer concerns if I were trading Bledsoe than if I were trading Cutler which is what I was trying to indicate in my post. I was very unclear about relating to at the moment of the trade in my original post, apologies for any confusion. Just to be clear, you are absolutely correct that Jay has a long way to go for his career to be considered better than Bledsoes, I am not positive he will, although I do think he has the potential, but really at this point in time it does not matter to the Broncos or me whether he does or not. (outside of this one year for draft pick purposes).

Drek
10-05-2009, 08:46 PM
Yes I was referring strictly to the Ravens defense-led Super Bowl year. Remember how Tony Banks kept turning the ball over again and again? I see what you mean about the Brees parallels, but that's a tough comparison.

I knew Dilfer pretty well in college, we played them in the Aloha Bowl in 94 I think. We killed them (of course), but Dilfer threw like 60 passes for 500 yards. Seriously, he had over 500 yards that game.

Brees, someone who's career path Orton has followed almost exactly, is a tough comparison but a single year that everyone likes to cherry pick out of Dilfer's isn't?

The only way the Orton/Brees comparison is tough is that it requires those making it to acknowledge that maybe Orton can actually become an elite QB in this league. Not that he will, just that he might.

Despite a 4-0 record and a 97.7 QB rating in only his first four games in McDaniels system (which took Matt Cassel three years of riding the pine and 7 regular season starts to finally click in) a lot of people are still struggling with the notion that maybe Orton doesn't actually suck.

baja
10-05-2009, 08:56 PM
Brees, someone who's career path Orton has followed almost exactly, is a tough comparison but a single year that everyone likes to cherry pick out of Dilfer's isn't?

<b>The only way the Orton/Brees comparison is tough is that it requires those making it to acknowledge that maybe Orton can actually become an elite QB in this league. Not that he will, just that he might. </b>

Despite a 4-0 record and a 97.7 QB rating in only his first four games in McDaniels system (which took Matt Cassel three years of riding the pine and 7 regular season starts to finally click in) a lot of people are still struggling with the notion that maybe Orton doesn't actually suck.

You got it, that is the problem especially with Buff.

I'm wondering when Orton becomes the franchise QB the Broncos have been searching how the haters will reconcile.

BroncoBuff
10-05-2009, 09:07 PM
I'm wondering when Orton becomes the franchise QB the Broncos have been searching how the haters will reconcile.
Reconcile? I'll be freakin' thrilled.

I don't get this preoccupation with going all "oh snap!" on other Broncos fans ???

Bronx33
10-05-2009, 09:17 PM
I'm not truly celebrating unless I see us 5-1 or 6-0 heading into the bye, even if I'm happy we're 4-0. (I'll take a NE loss if it means a SD win).

Our offense need's to get it's damn act together... particularly in the passing game. Royal needs to be our Welker, and Marshall our Moss... and Scheffler needs to be owning them on play action.


I really think royal is getting screwed by orton it seems orton fails to survey the whole field when selecting a receiver and don't get me started on his horrible accuracy and yes i would like to see the TE used alot more in short yardage situations vs pounding it up the gut 3 times in a row.

tsiguy96
10-05-2009, 09:24 PM
Reconcile? I'll be freakin' thrilled.

I don't get this preoccupation with going all "oh snap!" on other Broncos fans ???

because we had to spend all offseason hearing about how the broncos will suck, offense defense everything will be bad, and it was in a way that it was an absolute guarantee. people refused to accept that mcdaniels was doing the right things for this team and instead reverted to mcdip**** posts and trying to tell anyone whod listen how bad the team would be. then the team started winning and they realized they spent all year crying for no reason at all.

mhgaffney
10-05-2009, 09:28 PM
Denver fans love QBs who can move around, improvise, and make something out of nothing.

Orton gets low marks on all of the above. Can a statue lead us to the SB?

BroncoBuff
10-05-2009, 09:30 PM
Denver fans love QBs who can move around, improvise, and make something out of nothing.

Orton gets low marks on all of the above. Can a statue lead us to the SB?

He doesn't move too well, but his arm has been much better than advertised.

Bronx33
10-05-2009, 09:35 PM
He doesn't move too well, but his arm has been much better than advertised.

Accuracy is now an issue..

tsiguy96
10-05-2009, 09:44 PM
Accuracy is now an issue..

to be fair, the tip of his most important finger came OFF just a few weeks ago...

BroncoBuff
10-05-2009, 09:45 PM
to be fair, the tip of his most important finger came OFF just a few weeks ago...

And to be fair, he's throwing the ball MUCH BETTER since that injury. It's not implausible it actually helped him.

baja
10-05-2009, 09:49 PM
Reconcile? I'll be freakin' thrilled.

I don't get this preoccupation with going all "oh snap!" on other Broncos fans ???

Just the ones that have been shiiting on everything Broncos.

baja
10-05-2009, 09:54 PM
Accuracy is now an issue..

That will come, dude has been in this system all of 4 games with a badly damaged finger on his throwing hand yet he gets zero slack because he's not Cutler. The Broncos have a very good QB in the making but the jilted ones are incapable of seeing that through their grief.

baja
10-05-2009, 09:56 PM
And to be fair, he's throwing the ball MUCH BETTER since that injury. It's not implausible it actually helped him.

Ya that's it. Lets get an assistant coach to smash that finger with a hammer before every game.

Bronx33
10-05-2009, 09:57 PM
That will come, dude has been in this system all of 4 games with a badly damaged finger on his throwing hand yet he gets zero slack because he's not Cutler. The Broncos have a very good QB in the making but the jilted ones are incapable of seeing that through their grief.


I guess time will tell.

tsiguy96
10-05-2009, 09:58 PM
And to be fair, he's throwing the ball MUCH BETTER since that injury. It's not implausible it actually helped him.

not really, hes just throwing with a gameplan and a running game to help him now. he is still missing open guys weve seen it, but he is improving every single game.

baja
10-05-2009, 10:05 PM
not really, hes just throwing with a gameplan and a running game to help him now. he is still missing open guys weve seen it, but he is improving every single game.

The thing that concerns me most about Orton is his lack of ability to slide around in the pocket and be evasive.

Bigdawg26
10-05-2009, 10:23 PM
C'mon guys I know we are 4-0 and again alot of ppl are shocked that McDaniels knew what he was doing the whole time, but to deem Kyle Orton the next Drew Brees and Tom Brady is insane and a bit dramatic. He really isn't lighting up the field with this dink and donk system the defense is playing lights out and Buckhalter and Knowshon are playing great and setting up Kyle Orton. I mean he basically a product of Mcdaniels system, LUCK, and some very good wide outs who make great plays (e.g. stokley catching a pass that was first intercepted and the coner was out of bounds and then the roy williams going for the pick and stokley at the right place and right time, if Antony Spencer would have reacted a second eariler he coulda had a pick six, and Brandon Marshall jumping over Newman, basically taking the ball away from him and making a great run after catch). Do I think he's doing a good job managing he game... yes, but do I think our 4-0 record is because of kyle orton... no it is because of coaching having the defense playing lights out with intensity and mcdaniels putting the offense in a good position to set up the run and dink and donk with orton managing the game. Kyle Orton can not and will not win football games like an elite quarterback (e.g. Drew Brees, Peyton Manning, and Tom Brady) can.

DBroncos4life
10-05-2009, 10:51 PM
Brees, someone who's career path Orton has followed almost exactly, is a tough comparison but a single year that everyone likes to cherry pick out of Dilfer's isn't?

The only way the Orton/Brees comparison is tough is that it requires those making it to acknowledge that maybe Orton can actually become an elite QB in this league. Not that he will, just that he might.

Despite a 4-0 record and a 97.7 QB rating in only his first four games in McDaniels system (which took Matt Cassel three years of riding the pine and 7 regular season starts to finally click in) a lot of people are still struggling with the notion that maybe Orton doesn't actually suck.

Matt Cassel isn't good though. He is on pace for under 1900 yards. Outside of NE. This is the guy that McDaniels wanted. While Orton missed some throws and left points on the field he did finish strong. Watching him during the first three quarters I was shocked to see that he ended up as well stat wise as he did. So was my friend watching the game with me. There is room for improvement which I hope we will see when the glove comes off but I hope that if we do end up signing him its not anything like what Cassel got.

tsiguy96
10-05-2009, 10:54 PM
The thing that concerns me most about Orton is his lack of ability to slide around in the pocket and be evasive.

werent tehy saying before the game that orton credited mcdaniels with his improvement in that area, saying its the biggest thing hes improved all year?

baja
10-05-2009, 10:56 PM
C'mon guys I know we are 4-0 and again alot of ppl are shocked that McDaniels knew what he was doing the whole time, but to deem Kyle Orton the next Drew Brees and Tom Brady is insane and a bit dramatic. He really isn't lighting up the field with this dink and donk system the defense is playing lights out and Buckhalter and Knowshon are playing great and setting up Kyle Orton. I mean he basically a product of Mcdaniels system, LUCK, and some very good wide outs who make great plays (e.g. stokley catching a pass that was first intercepted and the coner was out of bounds and then the roy williams going for the pick and stokley at the right place and right time, if Antony Spencer would have reacted a second eariler he coulda had a pick six, and Brandon Marshall jumping over Newman, basically taking the ball away from him and making a great run after catch). Do I think he's doing a good job managing he game... yes, but do I think our 4-0 record is because of kyle orton... no it is because of coaching having the defense playing lights out with intensity and mcdaniels putting the offense in a good position to set up the run and dink and donk with orton managing the game. Kyle Orton can not and will not win football games like an elite quarterback (e.g. Drew Brees, Peyton Manning, and Tom Brady) can.

I don't see anyone crediting Orton for the wins, they are a product of a total team effort that is what is so exciting about this team. The thing I see in Orton is potential to be a very good QB in this system one that can make all the throws and right reads. A smart QB is more valuable than a gun slinger. IMO

DBroncos4life
10-05-2009, 11:03 PM
I don't see anyone crediting Orton for the wins, they are a product of a total team effort that is what is so exciting about this team. The thing I see in Orton is potential to be a very good QB in this system one that can make all the throws and right reads. A smart QB is more valuable than a gun slinger. IMO

Just because you have a strong arm doesn't mean you are going to turn the ball over. Being able to make certain throws is very important. I don't care what you say there is nothing that leads me to believe we wouldn't be 4-0 with any other starter in the NFL outside of Bulger, Campbell, and Russell.

tsiguy96
10-05-2009, 11:08 PM
Just because you have a strong arm doesn't mean you are going to turn the ball over. Being able to make certain throws is very important. I don't care what you say there is nothing that leads me to believe we wouldn't be 4-0 with any other starter in the NFL outside of Bulger, Campbell, and Russell.

so this 4-0 TEAM isnt good enough because orton "cant make all the throws" when essentially everyone in the denver broncos organization disagrees with you. last year we harped on cutler all year for not taking waht the defense gives, and now that we have a QB that does that, you guys want the QB who chucks it into double coverage downfield.

BroncoBuff
10-05-2009, 11:10 PM
A smart QB is more valuable than a gun slinger. IMO
Pretending Cutler isn't smart is, well, not smart ;D

Leave him alone, he kicked ass again yesterday ... Jay is a stud, but he's their stud now, no reason to bash him. We have Orton, Ayers and Alphonso now.

baja
10-05-2009, 11:12 PM
Just because you have a strong arm doesn't mean you are going to turn the ball over. Being able to make certain throws is very important. I don't care what you say there is nothing that leads me to believe we wouldn't be 4-0 with any other starter in the NFL outside of Bulger, Campbell, and Russell.

I'm not trying to make the argument that orton is winning games for us, it's more a case that he is just not losing games for us. My point is that buried in the averageness that is Kyle Orton has been a glimpses of a real good QB waiting to be drawn out and I think McD is the coach to do it.

But like you said in another post, "Time will tell"

BroncoBuff
10-05-2009, 11:12 PM
The thing that concerns me most about Orton is his lack of ability to slide around in the pocket and be evasive.
The O-line is capable of creating a classic pocket ... so he could conceivably be a poor man's Fouts or Marino, a guy who succeeds despite restricted mobility.

And again, maybe that's all we need. As long as he keeps up the zero interceptions, I am 100% behind him.


Matt Cassel isn't good though. He is on pace for under 1900 yards. Outside of NE. This is the guy that McDaniels wanted. To be fair, Haley's offense seems nothing like the Patriots', based on what I saw of the Cardinals last year anyway.

I don't think the Brees comparisons are apt though, Brees was pretty awesome after just a season or two for the Bolts, and of course now he might be the best QB in the league. I hope our expectations of Orton don't escalate so far as that ... remember, the TD to Knowshon probably should have been intercepted, maybe even a pick-6, and the Marshall TD would also have been intercepted had any receiver other than Marshall been out there. Not bashing, just stating facts.


There is room for improvement which I hope we will see when the glove comes off.
No, oh gawd no ... LEAVE THE GLOVE!

The QB he was before the glove is not even a shadow of what came after ... throw the glove on, and suddenly all the interceptions that plagued his pre-season are gone. I'm actually not joking, leave the glove.

tsiguy96
10-05-2009, 11:14 PM
Pretending Cutler isn't smart is, well, not smart ;D

Leave him alone, he kicked ass again yesterday ... Jay is a stud, but he's their stud now, no reason to bash him. We have Orton, Ayers and Alphonso now.

141 yards yesterday. he had a great run into the end zone but the reason he kicked ass is for 100% different reasons than last year.
a. he played the lions. they put up a fight but they are still the lions
b. the bears have essentially put a leash on cutler, and he needed it. im curious how long he will buy into the coaching. people harped on us for not playing anyone yet, they really havent either, and 2 of their wins were presents from hte other teams kickers.

he is playing well, but hes not playing a game right now that only he can play, its very tamed down and not very SPECIAL. its consistent, which is what good QBs are and what orton is doing here.

baja
10-05-2009, 11:15 PM
Pretending Cutler isn't smart is, well, not smart ;D

Leave him alone, he kicked ass again yesterday ... Jay is a stud, but he's their stud now, no reason to bash him. We have Orton, Ayers and Alphonso now.

I never said Cutler was not smart my objection to Cutler is I think he doesn't want to play Josh ball. As a matter of fact I never mentioned Cutler at all.

BTW for a guy that continually says Let Cutler go he is a Bear now you sure bring him up a lot. just sayin...

BMarsh615
10-05-2009, 11:16 PM
The QB he was before the glove is not even a shadow of what came after ... throw the glove on, and suddenly all the interceptions that plagued his pre-season are gone. I'm actually not joking, leave the glove.

Orton was throwing INT's in the preseason because McDaniels wanted to see what he could or couldn't call with him. Orton has never been a mistake prone QB, he holds the Bears franchise record with 205 consecutive passes without an INT.

DBroncos4life
10-05-2009, 11:19 PM
so this 4-0 TEAM isnt good enough because orton "cant make all the throws" when essentially everyone in the denver broncos organization disagrees with you. last year we harped on cutler all year for not taking waht the defense gives, and now that we have a QB that does that, you guys want the QB who chucks it into double coverage downfield.

No I was suggesting that we see what he looks like with the glove off before everyone claims he is the QBOF. What I'm saying is that guys like Flaco or Rogers would make the O better. What you don't seem to understand is that if Orton or Cassel can succeed in the system then a more talented QB would thrive kind of like Brady vs Cassel. Which QB played better in the "system"? The answer is Brady, and he is an elite QB. That is what many of us said during the offseason. Cutler wouldn't have lost us a game this year regardless of what you seem to believe. Outside of the first game he has really played smarter football. Yes he sucked that first game but since then he has controlled his throws and had three games now in a row over 100 rating.

We still move the ball up and down the field but struggle in the RZ. We do struggle on 3rd downs. What many people are saying is that there is room for improvement. Personally I think they will get better when Orton gets the glove off but if he still struggles on his accuracy I would hope that we look elsewhere for a QBOF and not toss a large amount of money at Orton.

Wes Mantooth
10-05-2009, 11:21 PM
Orton doesn't turn the ball over. It gives our team a chance to win. Same thing that Brady did his first year in the system.

DBroncos4life
10-05-2009, 11:26 PM
The O-line is capable of creating a classic pocket ... so he could conceivably be a poor man's Fouts or Marino, a guy who succeeds despite restricted mobility.

And again, maybe that's all we need. As long as he keeps up the zero interceptions, I am 100% behind him.


To be fair, Haley's offense seems nothing like the Patriots', based on what I saw of the Cardinals last year anyway.

I don't think the Brees comparisons are apt though, Brees was pretty awesome after just a season or two for the Bolts, and of course now he might be the best QB in the league. I hope our expectations of Orton don't escalate so far as that ... remember, the TD to Knowshon probably should have been intercepted, maybe even a pick-6, and the Marshall TD would also have been intercepted had any receiver other than Marshall been out there. Not bashing, just stating facts.



No, oh gawd no ... LEAVE THE GLOVE!

The QB he was before the glove is not even a shadow of what came after ... throw the glove on, and suddenly all the interceptions that plagued his pre-season are gone. I'm actually not joking, leave the glove.

Which makes Cassel a product of a system. Odds are Brady would do well outside of NE given the fact that he has succeeded with something like 3 different OC's now. Still because he was more talented to begin with than Cassel and thats why he put up way better numbers the Cassel. I know you would agree with me that while Orton is not turning the ball over and is winning games that with this D playing as well as it is a QB that can make the throws that Orton can't wouldn't have cost us a single game this year.

BroncoBuff
10-05-2009, 11:27 PM
141 yards yesterday. he had a great run into the end zone but the reason he kicked ass is for 100% different reasons than last year.
a. he played the lions. they put up a fight but they are still the lions
b. the bears have essentially put a leash on cutler, and he needed it. im curious how long he will buy into the coaching. people harped on us for not playing anyone yet, they really havent either, and 2 of their wins were presents from hte other teams kickers.You're probably basing that on the columnist from last week ... it might be true for two of their games, but the tow games I saw, he was the same Jay as always.

I guess he did throw for just 141, I didn't know that. But he had 2 TD passes, an awesome TD run, and Matt Forte FINALLY contributed.


he is playing well, but hes not playing a game right now that only he can play, its very tamed down and not very SPECIAL.
Wrong. Sorry, but I watched every play of the Seahawks game, and without Cutler, Bears lose. Period. With Orton, Bears lose. Tough to hear, but I;m telling you, Jay won that game for them.

You should really find a way to watch the 2nd half of that game. Dozens of Seahawks fans around me were cussing and praising him, it was quite a day for him. Like it or not.

BroncoBuff
10-05-2009, 11:30 PM
A smart QB is more valuable than a gun slinger. IMO

You're telling me this is not about Cutler?! ROFL!

Get real, baja ... at least be honest. You don't like Jay, fine with me, but try to be more honest there.

BroncoBuff
10-05-2009, 11:32 PM
Which makes Cassel a product of a system. Odds are Brady would do well outside of NE given the fact that he has succeeded with something like 3 different OC's now. Still because he was more talented to begin with than Cassel and thats why he put up way better numbers the Cassel. I know you would agree with me that while Orton is not turning the ball over and is winning games that with this D playing as well as it is a QB that can make the throws that Orton can't wouldn't have cost us a single game this year.

I agree with this 100 percent ... product of a system, three years on the bench learning. Chiefs might have three years to wait :~ohyah!:

DBroncos4life
10-05-2009, 11:34 PM
You're probably basing that on the columnist from last week ... it might be true for two of their games, but the tow games I saw, he was the same Jay as always.

I guess he did throw for just 141, I didn't know that. But he had 2 TD passes, an awesome TD run, and Matt Forte FINALLY contributed.



Wrong. Sorry, but I watched every play of the Seahawks game, and without Cutler, Bears lose. Period. With Orton, Bears lose. Tough to hear, but I;m telling you, Jay won that game for them.

You should really find a way to watch the 2nd half of that game. Dozens of Seahawks fans around me were cussing and praising him, it was quite a day for him. Like it or not.

I pointed out that two years ago at Green Bay Orton didn't turn the ball over one time and they lost 36 to 3, even with Cutlers horrific day they still came closer then Orton not doing anything to lose the game. Just because you play mistake free football you still need to be able to move the ball. Orton is doing just that this year which is great but there are still things he is missing. You say leave the glove on but I think its the reason he is leaving points on the field.

baja
10-05-2009, 11:34 PM
You're telling me this is not about Cutler?! ROFL!

Get real, baja ... at least be honest. You don't like Jay, fine with me, but try to be more honest there.

Sure it is but I didn't name him nor did I call him stupid.

I made a statement that I like a smart QB over a gunslinger type. Read what you want into that.

BroncoBuff
10-05-2009, 11:37 PM
Sure it is but I didn't name him nor did I call him stupid.

I made a statement that I like a smart QB over a gunslinger type. Read what you want into that.

You're comparing the two in a standard conversational format that connotes mutual exclusivity: the smart one's not a gunslinger, and the gunslinger's not smart.

Anyway, Kyle Orton is AWESOME!!!

tsiguy96
10-05-2009, 11:37 PM
I pointed out that two years ago at Green Bay Orton didn't turn the ball over one time and they lost 36 to 3, even with Cutlers horrific day they still came closer then Orton not doing anything to lose the game. Just because you play mistake free football you still need to be able to move the ball. Orton is doing just that this year which is great but there are still things he is missing. You say leave the glove on but I think its the reason he is leaving points on the field.

you truly just do not understand. you dont think the defense keeping GB to like 15 points after 3 picks had anything to do with chicago staying close?

its a TEAM game, one guy is not going to make this 4-0 team unbeatable, especially when hes playing smart football and not forcing balls to people who are not open. you keep saying how much better wed be with cutler, but thats ridiculous to say that cutler would not have turned the ball over and put this team, who has 2 very, very close wins, to 2-2 instead of 4-0. a turnover on our side WOULD have been the difference, no doubt.

tsiguy96
10-05-2009, 11:40 PM
no one is saying kyle orton is a pro bowler HOF qb or even QBOTF, but right now hes playing solid smart football that is winning games. just like cutler will never get credit for LOSING games, orton never gets credit for WINNING, even in chicago he didnt. dont know what else he has to do, hes not making mistakes right now, hes not playing perfect but its solid, winning football. stop bitching and enjoy it for a bit.

baja
10-05-2009, 11:44 PM
You're comparing the two in a standard conversational format that connotes mutual exclusivity: the smart one's not a gunslinger, and the gunslinger's not smart.

Anyway, Kyle Orton is AWESOME!!!

You know what is irritating about lawyers, they are pompous enough to think they know what you think.

Try this; I would rather have a QB that takes what the D gives him than a QB that takes chances with the ball trying to make a play.

DBroncos4life
10-05-2009, 11:48 PM
you truly just do not understand. you dont think the defense keeping GB to like 15 points after 3 picks had anything to do with chicago staying close?

its a TEAM game, one guy is not going to make this 4-0 team unbeatable, especially when hes playing smart football and not forcing balls to people who are not open. you keep saying how much better wed be with cutler, but thats ridiculous to say that cutler would not have turned the ball over and put this team, who has 2 very, very close wins, to 2-2 instead of 4-0. a turnover on our side WOULD have been the difference, no doubt.

Oh now its a TEAM game. Hell I thought Cutler was the only reason why we sucked last year. The Bears D did do a very good job after the TOs but what you can't seem to wrap your head around is that even if you turnover the ball after a drive while it is bad so is a three and out then punt. Both are not good. That is why the Bears got blown out in 08 vs the Packers with only one turnover. They couldn't pick up first downs.
Now for saying we would be better with Cutler, no one could even know that. No one can say he would have zero picks or ten picks right now. I think I can say there are a few throws that he or any other strong armed QB could have made yesterday giving us a few more points. I wish you would also understand that I BELIEVE the glove is the reason why he is missing the throws. Till I see what he can do without it I am very much willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.

BroncoBuff
10-05-2009, 11:48 PM
I pointed out that two years ago at Green Bay Orton didn't turn the ball over one time and they lost 36 to 3, even with Cutlers horrific day they still came closer then Orton not doing anything to lose the game. Just because you play mistake free football you still need to be able to move the ball. Orton is doing just that this year which is great but there are still things he is missing. You say leave the glove on but I think its the reason he is leaving points on the field.

Good points, all of them. Orton's stat lines look damn good though, hard to see what he's leaving on the field ... he completed 70-percent of his passes yesterday after all.

I was kidding about the glove of course, but we gotta live in reality, and the reality is we've been living on the edge thus far. The proper side of the ledge, but the ledge nonetheless. Not just the Stokley miracle, but also that both his TD passes yesterday were Int-worthy, defenders basically had both balls. Spencer whiffed on an easy one, and Brandon snatched the other out of Newman's hands.

I appreciate your point, but still, with Orton I'm more concerned about interceptions than anything else. As long as he throws zero picks, I love him love him love him. I know the no-mistake theory has its limitations, but for now I'll take it.

BroncoBuff
10-05-2009, 11:49 PM
You know what is irritating about lawyers, they are pompous enough to think they know what you think.

Try this; I would rather have a QB that takes what the D gives him than a QB that takes chances with the ball trying to make a play.

I LOVE YOU MAN! :twokisses

baja
10-05-2009, 11:53 PM
Should I worry??? ;D

BroncoBuff
10-05-2009, 11:54 PM
Should I worry??? ;D

Naaah ... you're too far down the coast :~ohyah!:

elsid13
10-06-2009, 02:55 AM
141 yards yesterday. he had a great run into the end zone but the reason he kicked ass is for 100% different reasons than last year.
a. he played the lions. they put up a fight but they are still the lions
b. the bears have essentially put a leash on cutler, and he needed it. im curious how long he will buy into the coaching. people harped on us for not playing anyone yet, they really havent either, and 2 of their wins were presents from hte other teams kickers.

he is playing well, but hes not playing a game right now that only he can play, its very tamed down and not very SPECIAL. its consistent, which is what good QBs are and what orton is doing here.

Have you actually watched the games? or are you going by the Stats?

Ratboy
10-06-2009, 03:44 AM
really? Because i'm pretty ecstatic.

qft.

cutthemdown
10-06-2009, 03:49 AM
I think Orton like 7 in Qb rating. Bronco fans just want Elway. They don't want to win a Trent Dilfer type Superbowl.

I could care less. Each yr you look at team and try to win with it. Once we have a big gun at QB again I'm sure the offense would change. A smart coach looks at team and coaches them best he can. You don't ask players to do things they can't do.

Just like you wouldn't tell John Elway not to scramble. Or Steve Young not to scramble. But you would tell Brian Griese not to scramble. Why because you want players to do what they do best, and not do what they aren't good at.

Brandstater has a big arm so its not like Mcdaniels doesn't also think like we do. He just went with best option he could find after he realized Cutler wasn't going to be there.

Now he's calling plays he feels Orton will be good at. If it was Cutler it would be a different type of play calling, but probably not a different offense. Just a different way of calling the plays that played into Cutlers strengths.

rastaman
10-06-2009, 04:31 AM
no one is saying kyle orton is a pro bowler HOF qb or even QBOTF, but right now hes playing solid smart football that is winning games. just like cutler will never get credit for LOSING games, orton never gets credit for WINNING, even in chicago he didnt. dont know what else he has to do, hes not making mistakes right now, hes not playing perfect but its solid, winning football. stop b****ing and enjoy it for a bit.

Stop Gap QB's either breakdown or will be exposed and attacked where they are weak. When this happens the Defense will begin to wear down but also start to question their QB's ability. The WR's are probably already questioning Orton's inability to get them the ball when they are open, yet they are reluctant to say anything at this point b/c we are winning. Point is, the Broncos are 4-0 despite Orton. Right now the players believe they have a chance to win so long as the Defense keeps the game close! Not b/c they believe in Orton's ability per say.

I'll be optimistic once McD can get a big arm QB starting and taking snaps behind the center and proves they have the ability to make all the throws while managing the game. In Orton we don't have that. So I'm still waiting....I'm sure McD knows this as well, after all his job will depend on it over the long haul.

cutthemdown
10-06-2009, 04:50 AM
Stop Gap QB's either breakdown or will be exposed and attacked where they are weak. When this happens the Defense will begin to wear down but also start to question their QB's ability. The WR's are probably already questioning Orton's inability to get them the ball when they are open, yet they are reluctant to say anything at this point b/c we are winning. Point is, the Broncos are 4-0 despite Orton. Right now the players believe they have a chance to win so long as the Defense keeps the game close! Not b/c they believe in Orton's ability per say.

I'll be optimistic once McD can get a big arm QB starting and taking snaps behind the center and proves they have the ability to make all the throws while managing the game. In Orton we don't have that. So I'm still waiting....I'm sure McD knows this as well, after all his job will depend on it over the long haul.

Rothlisberger was horrid passing his first Superbowl win
Brad Johnson was a journeyman, he won the Superbowl
Trent Dilfer
Jeff Hostettler

It can be done without a great QB. Some of the best QB's, Jim Kelly, Marino didn't win one.

Phill Simms wasn't all that great a QB.

Jim Plunkett won after being a cast off said to be too old.

Jim McMahon won a Superbowl, he was a horrid qb

People were calling Eli a bust before he won Superbowl

So really Orton can win the Superbowl if the team is good enough.

Drek
10-06-2009, 05:57 AM
Have you actually watched the games? or are you going by the Stats?

I watched the better part of the Detroit/Chicago game and Matt Stafford was pretty handily outplaying Cutler through the first half. It took the Detroit defense and special teams wiffing on tackles repeatedly allowing some huge runs and returns for the Bears to get a lead, which put the pressure on Stafford under which he made some mistakes.

Cutler had the very definition of a layup win on Sunday. If they lost that game with everything Detroit's offense and defense gave them it would've been cause for full blown panic in Chicago.



I don't think the Brees comparisons are apt though, Brees was pretty awesome after just a season or two for the Bolts, and of course now he might be the best QB in the league. I hope our expectations of Orton don't escalate so far as that ... remember, the TD to Knowshon probably should have been intercepted, maybe even a pick-6, and the Marshall TD would also have been intercepted had any receiver other than Marshall been out there. Not bashing, just stating facts.


Brees was a mediocre QB through his first 28 games, on average. Orton had been mediocre through his first 33 games, on average. Orton's mediocre was slightly better than Brees.

Just because Orton kept having the starting job taken away and given to Rex Grossman despite Orton just winning football games doesn't mean you can hold it against him. Last season he started to have the breakout year that Brees had in SD nearly a full season of starts ahead of schedule, then he tore up his ankle and played through it. He's not at basically the same point as Brees was when he finally broke through and he's already in a good system.

Will he be one of the top two or three QBs in the NFL? Probably not. But Matt Cassel looked like a franchise QB for 8 games in McDaniels offense. I think Orton is pretty conclusively more talented than he is. He's also seen a very similar development path as Drew Brees, who really broke out when he got into a spread offense, which Orton is now in.

Everything is aligned for Orton to take a big step forward in his career and no longer look like just a game managing QB. He might not do it, but acting like there is no way he could possibly do it is the very definition of denial.

TheReverend
10-06-2009, 08:50 AM
I watched the better part of the Detroit/Chicago game and Matt Stafford was pretty handily outplaying Cutler through the first half. It took the Detroit defense and special teams wiffing on tackles repeatedly allowing some huge runs and returns for the Bears to get a lead, which put the pressure on Stafford under which he made some mistakes.

Cutler had the very definition of a layup win on Sunday. If they lost that game with everything Detroit's offense and defense gave them it would've been cause for full blown panic in Chicago.



Brees was a mediocre QB through his first 28 games, on average. Orton had been mediocre through his first 33 games, on average. Orton's mediocre was slightly better than Brees.

Just because Orton kept having the starting job taken away and given to Rex Grossman despite Orton just winning football games doesn't mean you can hold it against him. Last season he started to have the breakout year that Brees had in SD nearly a full season of starts ahead of schedule, then he tore up his ankle and played through it. He's not at basically the same point as Brees was when he finally broke through and he's already in a good system.

Will he be one of the top two or three QBs in the NFL? Probably not. But Matt Cassel looked like a franchise QB for 8 games in McDaniels offense. I think Orton is pretty conclusively more talented than he is. He's also seen a very similar development path as Drew Brees, who really broke out when he got into a spread offense, which Orton is now in.

Everything is aligned for Orton to take a big step forward in his career and no longer look like just a game managing QB. He might not do it, but acting like there is no way he could possibly do it is the very definition of denial.

This is a good post, but in the same breath you can't ignore the fact that Brees never showed an aversion to throwing to the outside to his receivers, while KO has made a career of milking the center of the field and/or check down passes.

Also, Brees steps forward came when SD gave birth to a defense. That's something KO has yet to lack in his career.

Other than that, good points.

BroncoBuff
10-06-2009, 09:24 AM
Brees was a mediocre QB through his first 28 games, on average. Orton had been mediocre through his first 33 games, on average. Orton's mediocre was slightly better than Brees.

Just because Orton kept having the starting job taken away and given to Rex Grossman despite Orton just winning football games doesn't mean you can hold it against him. Last season he started to have the breakout year that Brees had in SD nearly a full season of starts ahead of schedule, then he tore up his ankle and played through it. He's not at basically the same point as Brees was when he finally broke through and he's already in a good system.

Will he be one of the top two or three QBs in the NFL? Probably not. But Matt Cassel looked like a franchise QB for 8 games in McDaniels offense. I think Orton is pretty conclusively more talented than he is. He's also seen a very similar development path as Drew Brees, who really broke out when he got into a spread offense, which Orton is now in.

Everything is aligned for Orton to take a big step forward in his career and no longer look like just a game managing QB. He might not do it, but acting like there is no way he could possibly do it is the very definition of denial.

DAMN ... that is one killer case for Orton! :thumbs:

He needs to pass better though ???

BroncoBuff
10-06-2009, 10:01 AM
I watched the better part of the Detroit/Chicago game and Matt Stafford was pretty handily outplaying Cutler through the first half. It took the Detroit defense and special teams wiffing on tackles repeatedly allowing some huge runs and returns for the Bears to get a lead, which put the pressure on Stafford under which he made some mistakes.
Johnny Knox (drafted with their Cutler trade pick), had a KO return-6 and Forte returned to '08 form. The game was in Chicago, too ... is it possible the Lions are a little better than we think? Funny, but I'm still mulling over my Pick'em for this weeks Lions-Steelers game, might want to go with an upset.

Sounds like you were rooting for the Lions there, Drek ... ::)

I wish you could see the Seahawks-Bears game, at least the second half. I'd be interested in your take. I was in a Seahawks bar (in the corner watching Den-Oak), and people were screaming his name in agony.

Drek
10-06-2009, 07:08 PM
This is a good post, but in the same breath you can't ignore the fact that Brees never showed an aversion to throwing to the outside to his receivers, while KO has made a career of milking the center of the field and/or check down passes.

Also, Brees steps forward came when SD gave birth to a defense. That's something KO has yet to lack in his career.

Other than that, good points.

Brees did have superior talent catching his passes, and the Bears D was pretty far from world beaters last year when Orton had his best season to date.

Does Orton still have things to improve on? Oh hell yeah. But when you look at the career path from college through to date in the NFL his best comp is Drew Brees. Doesn't mean he'll be Drew Brees. Miguel Cabrera's best comp in baseball is Manny Ramirez, doesn't mean Cabrera won't eat/drink himself out of the league or at least perennial MVP contention. But a similar skill set and developmental background is present in both comparisons.

Johnny Knox (drafted with their Cutler trade pick), had a KO return-6 and Forte returned to '08 form. The game was in Chicago, too ... is it possible the Lions are a little better than we think? Funny, but I'm still mulling over my Pick'em for this weeks Lions-Steelers game, might want to go with an upset.

Sounds like you were rooting for the Lions there, Drek ... ::)

I wish you could see the Seahawks-Bears game, at least the second half. I'd be interested in your take. I was in a Seahawks bar (in the corner watching Den-Oak), and people were screaming his name in agony.

The Lions offense? Yeah, lot better than people give them credit for. The D and special teams though really are THAT BAD. And I mean worst in the league bad. Knox didn't do anything special to break his return TD, he was decisive and took a good route, sure, but if their special teams played with even a little balls, fundamentals, or some combination of the two he doesn't make it past midfield. Same with both of Forte's big runs. If their defensive line didn't do their best Red Sea impression where every Bears OL gets to play Moses he wouldn't have broken either one nearly as far. Would they still have been good runs? Sure, but the LBs where in pursuit, they just can't do much when half the Bears OL gets to set up lead blocks for Forte on them because no one respects the Lions DL at all.

Was I pulling for the Lions? Sure. I think Stafford and Calvin Johnson are compelling players and I'd like to see something between a 6-10 to 8-8 season out of the Bears so that we get a pick in the 8-14 range. But it doesn't really color my opinions on what I saw.

Same with the Seahawks game, actually got to catch bits and pieces of it in a bar shortly after going to the Rams home opener last Sunday. The Seahawks aren't a very good team. Chicago should have blown them out. Instead they needed Cutler to turn it on in the end and like the week before, help from a kicker not being able to do his job. Cutler did pull out some nice drives late, got to give him that, but the fact that they where in that position against Seattle in a game where Seneca freakin' Wallace threw nearly 50 passes? That should scare Bears fans.