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cmhargrove
09-18-2009, 08:12 AM
No - i'm not coming out of the closet.

I just watched the Wednesday interview with Kyle Orton on denverbroncos.com. I have some lingering doubts and concerns about his skill level, but I just want to say...

I fully support Kyle Orton as the QB of the Broncos.

Forget old party pics from college. This guy is a straight up team player. He is smart, he knows "his job," and he understands that this is a team sport, and he's not supposed to be the glory boy. He doesn't pout, he doesn't blame, he expects to get better, he expects to win. He spreads the ball around the field, doesn't pick favorites, and never talks trash.

He may not be fantastic (i'll be the first to admit that), but he is doing a very god job with this team right now. Hopefullly, they allow him to dump the ball short like they did in Chicago last year so we can control the clock and move the ball.

If he can continue to improve his intermediate passes, then I believe we can become a pretty dangerous offense.

I'm not bitching any more - this is the right kid for this team, and I think he will only get better. Hopefullly Brandstater tries to take the job next year (or we draft another QB), but right now - Orton's a good choice.

Commence your bitching...

Here's his Wednesday presser:
http://www.denverbroncos.com/page.php?id=609

Popcorn Sutton
09-18-2009, 08:16 AM
I'll take Orton's attitude any day of the week. You notice how he says "WE" left 150-200 yards on the field. Never does he imply that another players was at fault. He is all team and I'm hoping he can succeed. I would love to see him play well enough to turn a few eyes this season. If he doesn't, Chris Simms is a heck of a team guy as well. We'll see how it plays out.

cmhargrove
09-18-2009, 08:18 AM
I'll take Orton's attitude any day of the week. You notice how he says "WE" left 150-200 yards on the field. Never does he imply that another players was at fault. He is all team and I'm hoping he can succeed. I would love to see him play well enough to turn a few eyes this season. If he doesn't, Chris Simms is a heck of a team guy as well. We'll see how it plays out.

Agreed - i'm not saying no to Simms, because he seems like he has made strides, but I like Orton's ethic (as long as he continues to make strides in his personal skill level - which is implied in his attitude).

TailgateNut
09-18-2009, 08:21 AM
No - i'm not coming out of the closet.

I just watched the Wednesday interview with Kyle Orton on denverbroncos.com. I have some lingering doubts and concerns about his skill level, but I just want to say...

I fully support Kyle Orton as the QB of the Broncos.

Forget old party pics from college. This guy is a straight up team player. He is smart, he knows "his job," and he understands that this is a team sport, and he's not supposed to be the glory boy. He doesn't pout, he doesn't blame, he expects to get better, he expects to win. He spreads the ball around the field, doesn't pick favorites, and never talks trash.

He may not be fantastic (i'll be the first to admit that), but he is doing a very god job with this team right now. Hopefullly, they allow him to dump the ball short like they did in Chicago last year so we can control the clock and move the ball.

If he can continue to improve his intermediate passes, then I believe we can become a pretty dangerous offense.

I'm not b****ing any more - this is the right kid for this team, and I think he will only get better. Hopefullly Brandstater tries to take the job next year (or we draft another QB), but right now - Orton's a good choice.

Commence your b****ing...

Here's his Wednesday presser:
http://www.denverbroncos.com/page.php?id=609


One of the biggest issues with "the fan base" is that we have 20% who are upset about the fumigation of Jay, 20% who are moaning about the "loss" of the former "Mastermind", 20% who are McD haters, 20% who hate Kyle (because of Jays pink slip) and 20% who are willing to see what the new season and revamped team will bring to the table.

cmhargrove
09-18-2009, 08:25 AM
One of the biggest issues with "the fan base" is that we have 20% who are upset about the fumigation of Jay, 20% who are moaning about the "loss" of the former "Mastermind", 20% who are McD haters, 20% who hate Kyle (because of Jays pink slip) and 20% who are willing to see what the new season and revamped team will bring to the table.

OK, I did that math, and that adds up to 100%.

Expound a little - are you saying you are part of the last 20% of hopeful fans?

jhns
09-18-2009, 08:27 AM
Since when did this sport become so feminine? Since when did personality matter so much for guys that are paid to run full speed at each other and cause giant collisions? Sorry, I will take skill any day of the week over the social club bronco fans now want to start. Seriously, you have no chance of scoring a date with these guys so give it a rest. Since when was the nice guy the best for a physical sport anyways? Since when was a dumb athlete supposed to also be smart, mature, and social? I don't understand.....

Mcd needs to lose the ego and get a real QB in there. We have so much young offensive talent going to waste right now.

Meck77
09-18-2009, 08:33 AM
I think as the season goes on Jay fans will realize what we've been trying to tell them for years. He's a strong armed QB with average decision making ability coupled with a really bad attitude/leadership skills. That equals loser as his career has always proven.

Orton certainly needs some work but we have to give the guy some time to learn this offense along with the rest of the TEAM. Whoops I used that team word. I've been posting here for almost a decade now and it still amazes me that some football fans can't grasp the win as a team or lose as a team concept. The key is to have a QB that the team rallys around and guess what. Jake Plummer was that guy. Maybe Orton can be. Remember Orton was only a small part of that trade for Cutler so it's yet to be seen how that trade truly pans out.

Patience......You people need to have patience and see how all this plays out.

Oh and Cmhargrove.....Welcome to positive side my brother. Enjoy the season.

Pseudofool
09-18-2009, 08:35 AM
Since when did this sport become so feminine? Since when did personality matter so much for guys that are paid to run full speed at each other and cause giant collisions? Sorry, I will take skill any day of the week over the social club bronco fans now want to start. Seriously, you have no chance of scoring a date with these guys so give it a rest. Since when was the nice guy the best for a physical sport anyways? Since when was a dumb athlete supposed to also be smart, mature, and social? I don't understand.....

Mcd needs to lose the ego and get a real QB in there. We have so much young offensive talent going to waste right now.Yeah things like leadership and humility totally don't matter in a team sport like football.

tsiguy96
09-18-2009, 08:37 AM
I think as the season goes on Jay fans will realize what we've been trying to tell them for years. He's a strong armed QB with average decision making ability coupled with a really bad attitude/leadership skills. That equals loser as his career has always proven.

Orton certainly needs some work but we have to give the guy some time to learn this offense along with the rest of the TEAM. Whoops I used that team word. I've been posting here for almost a decade now and it still amazes me that some football fans can't grasp the win as a team or lose as a team concept. The key is to have a QB that the team rallys around and guess what. Jake Plummer was that guy. Maybe Orton can be. Remember Orton was only a small part of that trade for Cutler so it's yet to be seen how that trade truly pans out.

Patience......You people need to have patience and see how all this plays out.

Oh and Cmhargrove.....Welcome to positive side my brother. Enjoy the season.

i look at situations like chicago, and cutler has a TON of excuses set up, i hear them every single day at school and from people around me. but orton won 9 games there last year with a worse oline and less depth at receiver. why does cutler get such a pass but not orton? throw me on the bus of not impressed YET but im willing to give the guy time. but i do think brandstater looks good playing...

TailgateNut
09-18-2009, 08:37 AM
Yeah things like leadership and humility totally don't matter in a team sport like football.

The ignore feature doesn't work when "you guys" quote "Mr. Know it all".

Mr. Elway
09-18-2009, 08:38 AM
Since when did this sport become so feminine? Since when did personality matter so much for guys that are paid to run full speed at each other and cause giant collisions? Sorry, I will take skill any day of the week over the social club bronco fans now want to start. Seriously, you have no chance of scoring a date with these guys so give it a rest. Since when was the nice guy the best for a physical sport anyways? Since when was a dumb athlete supposed to also be smart, mature, and social? I don't understand.....

Mcd needs to lose the ego and get a real QB in there. We have so much young offensive talent going to waste right now.

Wow thats a pretty weird read on it.

jhns
09-18-2009, 08:39 AM
Yeah things like leadership and humility totally don't matter in a team sport like football.

Our SB teams that also set a record for most wins in a 3 season span were filled with immature clowns. Don't kid yourself. Good play is real leadership, not acting nice or taking blame. You all need to join some organized sports.

SoDak Bronco
09-18-2009, 08:39 AM
Nice Post!!! I think most people on this board all have a little bit of the 20% of each of those categories. Well maybe except Lex who is always hoping for the worst so he can be proved correct.

TailgateNut
09-18-2009, 08:41 AM
i look at situations like chicago, and cutler has a TON of excuses set up, i hear them every single day at school and from people around me. but orton won 9 games there last year with a worse oline and less depth at receiver. why does cutler get such a pass but not orton? throw me on the bus of not impressed YET but im willing to give the guy time. but i do think brandstater looks good playing...

Cutler gets a pass because of the "man-love" thingy some of the guys (I use that term very lightly;))have for him. ROFL!

GoBroncos DownUnder
09-18-2009, 08:41 AM
OK, I did that math, and that adds up to 100%.

Expound a little - are you saying you are part of the last 20% of hopeful fans?
On this website, I'd say that sounds right. Maybe more, but I'd go with TGN's math.

Since when did this sport become so feminine? Since when did personality matter so much for guys that are paid to run full speed at each other and cause giant collisions? Sorry, I will take skill any day of the week over the social club bronco fans now want to start. Seriously, you have no chance of scoring a date with these guys so give it a rest. Since when was the nice guy the best for a physical sport anyways? Since when was a dumb athlete supposed to also be smart, mature, and social? I don't understand.....

Mcd needs to lose the ego and get a real QB in there. We have so much young offensive talent going to waste right now.
It's not about personality, it's about CHARISMA. Anyone who's played football (or any sport) could remember "that guy" who would lead the team and inspire team-mates to willingly sacrifice themselves for the team.
In an 11 man sport, skill is worth much LESS than leadership.

Popcorn Sutton
09-18-2009, 08:42 AM
Since when did this sport become so feminine? Since when did personality matter so much for guys that are paid to run full speed at each other and cause giant collisions? Sorry, I will take skill any day of the week over the social club bronco fans now want to start. Seriously, you have no chance of scoring a date with these guys so give it a rest. Since when was the nice guy the best for a physical sport anyways? Since when was a dumb athlete supposed to also be smart, mature, and social? I don't understand.....

Mcd needs to lose the ego and get a real QB in there. We have so much young offensive talent going to waste right now.

The teams that win the Superbowl are often not the most "talented" teams.

jhns
09-18-2009, 08:47 AM
The teams that win the Superbowl are often not the most "talented" teams.

Really? Which one got a SB with a "leader" that wasn't good. Guys can be loved and great "leaders" in every sense you guys are trying to make up. You lead by play, period. If orton continues to suck, no one is giving extra to help him. No leader is taken seriously if they don't perform. Ask any football player. Talk means nothing on the field.

Popcorn Sutton
09-18-2009, 08:50 AM
Really? Which one got a SB with a "leader" that wasn't good. Guys can be loved and great "leaders" in every sense you guys are trying to make up. You lead by play, period. If orton continues to suck, no one is giving extra to help him. No leader is taken seriously if they don't perform. Ask any football player. Talk means nothing on the field.

Take notice. The players are behind Orton.

After seeing your post on the other forum about how McDaniels thinks Orton and Cassel are better than Cutler you've clearly lost what little credibility you had.

What was the trade for again? 2 firsts, 1 3rd, Orton for Cutler and a 5th. What part of that trade makes you draw your conclusion?

Popcorn Sutton
09-18-2009, 08:52 AM
Don't worry guys. I won't quote jhns any more. Sorry for even responding to him cmhargrove. Yet another thread derailed by jhns.

jhns
09-18-2009, 08:53 AM
On this website, I'd say that sounds right. Maybe more, but I'd go with TGN's math.


It's not about personality, it's about CHARISMA. Anyone who's played football (or any sport) could remember "that guy" who would lead the team and inspire team-mates to willingly sacrifice themselves for the team.
In an 11 man sport, skill is worth much LESS than leadership.

No one rallies behind bad players. That guy is good or people don't care, period. Skill is not worth less. Look at what your version of leadership got us. A far worse looking offense. We gave up sacks and didn't move the ball at all on our own. Yeah, much better to have a mature guy than a skilled one.......

Popcorn Sutton
09-18-2009, 08:56 AM
Yet another post pinning the lack of yardage squarely on the QB. Bravo. Bravo.

bronco0608
09-18-2009, 09:00 AM
Really? Which one got a SB with a "leader" that wasn't good. Guys can be loved and great "leaders" in every sense you guys are trying to make up. You lead by play, period. If orton continues to suck, no one is giving extra to help him. No leader is taken seriously if they don't perform. Ask any football player. Talk means nothing on the field.

So you would have no problem in adding Terrell Owens, Jeff George, Maurice Claurett, Chris Henry, Pac-Man Jones, and Tank Johnson to your team.

This is not tennis or golf. This is a TEAM SPORT. And in team sports, chemistry matters; thats why players talk about chemistry so damn much. Don't you understand?

In all aspects of life, no one wants to work with douches, much less play sports with them. Its really a simple concept.

You have never played a team sport, and if you did, I guarantee you were not successful at it.

TailgateNut
09-18-2009, 09:02 AM
OK, I did that math, and that adds up to 100%.

Expound a little - are you saying you are part of the last 20% of hopeful fans?

If you have to ask, you haven't paid attention.

Yes, I am part of the positive group.
Shanahan was getting "too predictable"
Jay just doesn't make the right decisions, is a whiner, and an interception factory.
McD is a young mind, perfect for a new start
Orton isn't a Superhuman, but a good game mgr and team oriented QB who just like Jake can get the job done. (The day Shanahan replaced Jake with the WonderChild, was the day I knew Shanahan lost his f-ing mind, and gave up on the team).

Yes, I'll take the likes of Orton ANY DAY over an OVERATED DRAMA QUEEN.

jhns
09-18-2009, 09:02 AM
Yet another post pinning the lack of yardage squarely on the QB. Bravo. Bravo.

Nothing else changed in the offense other than the QB and coach. Well, the RB changed but for the better. Can you tell me why we were far worse playing th bengals than we were last year against some of the top defenses? Was it everyone elses fault? Orton is a good guy so he can do no wrong?

jhns
09-18-2009, 09:08 AM
So you would have no problem in adding Terrell Owens, Jeff George, Maurice Claurett, Chris Henry, Pac-Man Jones, and Tank Johnson to your team.

This is not tennis or golf. This is a TEAM SPORT. And in team sports, chemistry matters; thats why players talk about chemistry so damn much. Don't you understand?

In all aspects of life, no one wants to work with douches, much less play sports with them. Its really a simple concept.

You have never played a team sport, and if you did, I guarantee you were not successful at it.

I wouldn't take those guys because they have off the field issues and the commish now punishes that. There is a big difference. A lot of who you named are just bad players anyways. The only valid one you gave is TO and he actually fights with teammates and cries for the ball. Maybe you have soime examples of people like cutler doing this?

Also, jay had the support of the team unlike the TOs. Players played for jay because jay would give way more than orton. The guy hasn't even had an offseason yet. He would also run down the field throwing blocks. Just because a player is immature doesn't mean they aren't a team player and it doesn't mean they aren't respected in the locker room. You all just want to make this into a social club.

Again, look at our SBs. We had pleanty of immature players. You don't even know what being a teammate is and it shows. I have played many sports and was not good or I would still be playing. That isn't hard to figure out.

bronco0608
09-18-2009, 09:15 AM
I wouldn't take those guys because they have off the field issues and the commish now punishes that. There is a big difference. Also, jay had the support of the team unlike the TOs. Players played for jay because jay would give way more than orton. The guy hasn't even had an offseason yet. He would also run down the field throwing blocks. Just because a player is immature doesn't mean they aren't a team player and it doesn't mean they aren't respected in the locker room. You all just want to make this into a social club.

Again, look at our SBs. We had pleanty of immature players. You don't even know what being a teammate is and it shows. I have played many sports and was not good or I would still be playing. That isn't hard to figure out.

And you know this, how?

I don't doubt every team and organization in the world has immature people playing for them, but the key is to minimize those players. Or in your case, grab as many immature players as you can because, you know, personality doesn't matter.

Hell, why even have such thing as "leaders." If you are a mailman, why you need a boss? Just do your damn job. If shell out gorditas at Taco Bell, why have a manager? Just do your damn job. Leaders are sooooo overrated in EVERY aspect of life.

I"m with you.

jhns
09-18-2009, 09:22 AM
And you know this, how?

I don't doubt every team and organization in the world has immature people playing for them, but the key is to minimize those players. Or in your case, grab as many immature players as you can because, you know, personality doesn't matter.

Hell, why even have such thing as "leaders." If you are a mailman, why you need a boss? Just do your damn job. If shell out gorditas at Taco Bell, why have a manager? Just do your damn job. Leaders are sooooo overrated in EVERY aspect of life.

I"m with you.

I didn't say leaders are overrated. I said you guys have no idea what a leader is.

You must think it was ortons leadership that got the entire offense to play far worse than they ever did last season. Maybe it was the leadership skills that got the receivers to stpop catching and for our o-line to be on pace for more sacks given up than the o-line you all dogged this offseason(the bears) had last season. Is that the leadership you are talking about, the stuff that inspires play? Yeah, we don't have it anymore.

Elway was immature - great leader.

Sharpe was immature - somewhat a leader.

Romo was insane - great leader.

Ray Lewis helped kill a guy - great leader in football

You guys need a reality check.

Punisher
09-18-2009, 09:25 AM
Orton was gonna be the QB like it or not so I think you have no choice.

kamakazi_kal
09-18-2009, 09:26 AM
If he keeps sucking his good attitude won't go very far.

fontaine
09-18-2009, 09:26 AM
I fully support Kyle Orton as the QB of the Broncos.

Forget old party pics from college. This guy is a straight up team player. He is smart, he knows "his job," and he understands that this is a team sport, and he's not supposed to be the glory boy. He doesn't pout, he doesn't blame, he expects to get better, he expects to win. He spreads the ball around the field, doesn't pick favorites, and never talks trash.

He may not be fantastic (i'll be the first to admit that), but he is doing a very god job with this team right now. Hopefullly, they allow him to dump the ball short like they did in Chicago last year so we can control the clock and move the ball.

If he can continue to improve his intermediate passes, then I believe we can become a pretty dangerous offense.

I'm not b****ing any more - this is the right kid for this team, and I think he will only get better. Hopefullly Brandstater tries to take the job next year (or we draft another QB), but right now - Orton's a good choice.

Commence your b****ing...

Here's his Wednesday presser:
http://www.denverbroncos.com/page.php?id=609

Apparently the FO doesn't share that belief as I understand he's still working on a one year try out scenario with one year left on his deal.

oubronco
09-18-2009, 09:27 AM
Why does EVERYONE of the threads on the Mane always end up bitching about Cutler?

He's gone get over it, Move on

tsiguy96
09-18-2009, 09:28 AM
jhns if you dont like the team or anything thats happening with it feel free to not post here and complain to us about it all day. we cant control the team, all we can do is support them and hope for the best. quit trying to ruin this message board.

bronco0608
09-18-2009, 09:28 AM
I didn't say leaders are overrated. I said you guys have no idea what a leader is.

You must think it was ortons leadership that got the entire offense to play far worse than they ever did last season. Maybe it was the leadership skills that got the receivers to stpop catching and for our o-line to be on pace for more sacks given up than the o-line you all dogged this offseason(the bears) had last season. Is that the leadership you are talking about, the stuff that inspires play? Yeah, we don't have it anymore.


It's a new system which is very complicated to grasp. Just a month ago Wes Welker and Randy Moss both said it took two years for them to even get comfortable in it. Two years. The Broncos have played one game in it.

But what you are really trying to say is that "Cutler's leadership" made the offensive line block and made the receivers catch the ball, because obviously, Orton's leadership is lacking in that regard.

But I thought leadership was overrated and we didn't even know what we are talking about.

See that why you should be a GM. Jeff George, a guy who never had any off the field stuff, and is probably still one of the 30 best physically talented QBs on the planet has been out of football for nearly a decade. Stupid GMs, don't they know all you need your qb to do is just sling the ball and make plays? And who can sling the ball better than George? He's got a cannon and has proven to be successful in the NFL.

Them damn GMs taking personality into the equation. Stooopid

Chris
09-18-2009, 09:35 AM
He's an easy guy to root for. After the game last Sunday he shouted across the locker room, "Hey Brandon...Peyton Manning ever throw you a pass like that?!" at which point everyone laughed.

Mr.Meanie
09-18-2009, 09:36 AM
I didn't say leaders are overrated. I said you guys have no idea what a leader is.

You must think it was ortons leadership that got the entire offense to play far worse than they ever did last season. Maybe it was the leadership skills that got the receivers to stpop catching and for our o-line to be on pace for more sacks given up than the o-line you all dogged this offseason(the bears) had last season. Is that the leadership you are talking about, the stuff that inspires play? Yeah, we don't have it anymore.

I understand your point, and I agree with it mostly. Your leaders need to be talented to be able to lead people. No one who is talented one is going to follow a talentless hack who's trying to lead them, in any field.

But talent isn't the only thing that makes you a leader, or BMarsh would be a captain. Leadership includes talent, but it also includes charisma, work ethic, intelligence, and the willingness to leave it all out there on the field for your team.

Brian Dawkins is a great example of a leader... every teammate he's ever had says nothing but great things about him. He was the heart and sole of that Philly D, and he's fast becoming that here. He's just a natural born leader, who IS talented, but has so much more to offer than talent.

I think where your premise goes wrong is you thing Orton isn't talented, when he is. He's not an elite level talent, but he can play QB with some of the best in the world, or he wouldn't have a job. He may not be elite, but I don't question that he's a leader, if more of a quiet one than Dawkins. Did you hear the admiration of his teammates when he comes back from his knuckle busting through his finger, to starting the next game? That's how you lead.

BMarsh is one of the most talented people in the league, but he's not a leader of men. How do you follow someone who can't even lead themselves? Talent is a big factor, but there's so much more to it than that.

I would argue that Cutler has the makings of being a leader, but there are some things that hold him back. He's too hotheaded, and sometimes looks like he couldnt' care less. He's willing to throw his teammates under the bus when things go bad.

He's sooo close to being that leader people would follow into war, and he stops just short by being immature and pouty sometimes... which are NOT qualities that define leadership. I think he could get there, and I believe that leaders are created, not born.

You become that leader by the things you do under pressure and when everything rests on your shoulders, not by what you say when it's easy or convenient.

jhns
09-18-2009, 09:36 AM
It's a new system which is very complicated to grasp. Just a month ago Wes Welker and Randy Moss both said it took two years for them to even get comfortable in it. Two years. The Broncos have played one game in it.

But what you are really trying to say is that "Cutler's leadership" made the offensive line block and made the receivers catch the ball, because obviously, Orton's leadership is lacking in that regard.

But I thought leadership was overrated and we didn't even know what we are talking about.

See that why you should be a GM. Jeff George, a guy who never had any off the field stuff, and is probably still one of the 30 best physically talented QBs on the planet has been out of football for nearly a decade. Stupid GMs, don't they know all you need your qb to do is just sling the ball and make plays? And who can sling the ball better than George? He's got a cannon and has proven to be successful in the NFL.

Them damn GMs taking personality into the equation. Stooopid

Welker and moss both played well their first seasons. That is a horrible excuse. The offense was rookie-third year guys in one of the most complicated systems in the NFL last year. They played the way they did as they were learning.

I have not once said leadership is overrated. I said you guys have no idea what makes a leader.

George is a horrible example. Cutler outplayed him in his first year. George sucked from day one. Being able to throw and being able to play are two different things. Maybe you think george was good but just had a bad personality but I am not that dumb.

You want me to continue the examples? I can go on all day.

Aikman was a crybaby and very immature(even said we screwed up with jay and that guys like hima nd jay are a "different breed" and do need to be handled different - great leader

Bradshaw was immature - great leader

bronco0608
09-18-2009, 09:40 AM
The only people that follow douchebags and play harder for them are the weakest of the weak.

Any man with a pair of nuts doesn't let another player talk him down and let him blame him for the failure of a plays on a constant basis. Its just part of being a man.

Its a very simple concept.

jhns
09-18-2009, 09:41 AM
I understand your point, and I agree with it mostly. Your leaders need to be talented to be able to lead people. No one who is talented one is going to follow a talentless hack who's trying to lead them, in any field.

But talent isn't the only thing that makes you a leader, or BMarsh would be a captain. Leadership includes talent, but it also includes charisma, work ethic, intelligence, and the willingness to leave it all out there on the field for your team.

Brian Dawkins is a great example of a leader... every teammate he's ever had says nothing but great things about him. He was the heart and sole of that Philly D, and he's fast becoming that here. He's just a natural born leader, who IS talented, but has so much more to offer than talent.

I think where your premise goes wrong is you thing Orton isn't talented, when he is. He's not an elite level talent, but he can play QB with some of the best in the world, or he wouldn't have a job. He may not be elite, but I don't question that he's a leader, if more of a quiet one than Dawkins. Did you hear the admiration of his teammates when he comes back from his knuckle busting through his finger, to starting the next game? That's how you lead.

BMarsh is one of the most talented people in the league, but he's not a leader of men. How do you follow someone who can't even lead themselves? Talent is a big factor, but there's so much more to it than that.

I would argue that Cutler has the makings of being a leader, but there are some things that hold him back. He's too hotheaded, and sometimes looks like he couldnt' care less. He's willing to throw his teammates under the bus when things go bad.

He's sooo close to being that leader people would follow into war, and he stops just short by being immature and pouty sometimes... which are NOT qualities that define leadership. I think he could get there, and I believe that leaders are created, not born.

You become that leader by the things you do under pressure and when everything rests on your shoulders, not by what you say when it's easy or convenient.

I can agree with this other than I won't agree that orton is talented enough to lead until he proves me wrong at this point. I have seen enough to think I have a valid point in saying he sucks. This isn't his first time throwing the ball.

Just to clerify though, I am not saying only talent makes someone a leader, just that they need it to be one.

bronco0608
09-18-2009, 09:43 AM
Welker and moss both played well their first seasons. That is a horrible excuse. The offense was rookie-third year guys in one of the most complicated systems in the NFL last year. They played the way they did as they were learning.

I have not once said leadership is overrated. I said you guys have no idea what makes a leader.

George is a horrible example. Cutler outplayed him in his first year. George sucked from day one. Being able to throw and being able to play are two different things. Maybe you think george was good but just had a bad personality but I am not that dumb.

You want me to continue the examples? I can go on all day.

Aikman was a crybaby and very immature(even said we screwed up with jay and that guys like hima nd jay are a "different breed" and do need to be handled different - great leader

Bradshaw was immature - great leader

Since when did this sport become so feminine? Since when did personality matter so much for guys that are paid to run full speed at each other and cause giant collisions? Sorry, I will take skill any day of the week over the social club bronco fans now want to start.

Hey and you said it.

And wow, Cutler would kill for George's stats. George's last three seasons as a starter in the NFL:

97 29tds, 4000 yards
98 injured
99 12 games 3000 yards, 25 tds 12 ints

You. have. no. idea. what. you. are. talking. about

oubronco
09-18-2009, 09:45 AM
You two just get a room

jhns
09-18-2009, 09:49 AM
Hey and you said it.

And wow, Cutler would kill for George's stats. George's last three seasons as a starter in the NFL:

97 29tds, 4000 yards
98 injured
99 12 games 3000 yards, 25 tds 12 ints

You. have. no. idea. what. you. are. talking. about

LOL... Cutler would kill for those stats? Those are better than 4550 yards and 25 TDs in his second year starting over stats from a vet? Hmmm...

You don't even know what you are arguing with that other stuff. You don't seem to be a very smart person.

GoBroncos DownUnder
09-18-2009, 09:49 AM
No one rallies behind bad players. That guy is good or people don't care, period. Skill is not worth less.
So, I'm wondering how Orton got that 21-12 W-L record with the Bears? I mean if no-one rallied around him, and no-one cares? Did he win those games by himself? ???

A far worse looking offense. We gave up sacks and didn't move the ball at all on our own. Yeah, much better to have a mature guy than a skilled one.......
Are we finished after week ONE? LOL

jhns
09-18-2009, 09:53 AM
jhns if you dont like the team or anything thats happening with it feel free to not post here and complain to us about it all day. we cant control the team, all we can do is support them and hope for the best. quit trying to ruin this message board.

You could always stop posting here if you don't like what I have to say. I may cry about the team a lot but you cry far more just about everything. If crying is ruining the board, you are the biggest offender. So please, listen to yourself and leave.

jhns
09-18-2009, 09:57 AM
So, I'm wondering how Orton got that 21-12 W-L record with the Bears? I mean if no-one rallied around him, and no-one cares? Did he win those games by himself? ???


Are we finished after week ONE? LOL

Yes, he won the games by himself. Now let's see him take this team to the SB by himself because he is such a great leader.

Do you watch football? Are those serious questions? Orton was the leader of the bears defense and special teams? LOL

bronco0608
09-18-2009, 09:57 AM
LOL... Cutler would kill for those stats? Those are better than 4550 yards and 25 TDs in his second year starting over stats from a vet? Hmmm...

You don't even know what you are arguing with that other stuff. You don't seem to be a very smart person.


Once again, you said George's stats were terrible. ^5 Same as Cutlers, huh?

McMastermind
09-18-2009, 10:00 AM
The ignore feature doesn't work when "you guys" quote "Mr. Know it all".

Seriously.... it would be much appreciated.

Screw the "100 post" rule. I propose a "no quoting jhns" rule.

Nothing but a :threadjac

Popcorn Sutton
09-18-2009, 10:01 AM
Blah, blah, blah......

I'm not quoting you but I am responding to your post.

I'm just looking at week 1 this year and 7 dropped passes, some crucial penalties and a lackluster running game. There is more to it than Orton. I'm just glad he didn't give up an easy turnover because that would have been enough to hand the game to the Bengals.

jhns
09-18-2009, 10:01 AM
Once again, you said George's stats were terrible. ^5 Same as Cutlers, huh?

You need to learn how to read. I would love to argue with you but you don't even seem to try making sense. It is never to late man. You can go back to school at any time.

oubronco
09-18-2009, 10:04 AM
:welcome:

Pick Six
09-18-2009, 10:05 AM
ZERO turnovers by Orton....

That's the reason to support our quarterback...

oubronco
09-18-2009, 10:07 AM
:~ohyah!:

oubronco
09-18-2009, 10:08 AM
Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

oubronco
09-18-2009, 10:08 AM
:thumbsup:

oubronco
09-18-2009, 10:09 AM
:yayaya:

rastaman
09-18-2009, 10:20 AM
Yet another post pinning the lack of yardage squarely on the QB. Bravo. Bravo.

Come on Brew, you know the QB gets all the credit and all the blame. In the NFL, the QB has always been the Face of the team and fans come to watch the marquee QB's.

Why do you think the NFL owners have not only changed the rules to protect the QB, the owners have tied the hands of defenses just to allow the QB to throw for more yards and more TD's, etc!

Hence, the QB is the nerve center and heart of an organization. The QB sells tickets, rallies and lead the players and give fan hope, joy, anger and disappointment.

As you will see or already know this is the position both Orton and Cutler find themselves in. You either win, show leadership, and talent......or face the attack GAUNLET of the media and the fans! Already Orton and Cutler will be compared to ATL-Ryan, BAL-Falco, NO-Brees, PITT-Rothlesburger, NE-Brady, even NYJ-Sanchez (depending how well he plays this year). etc.

Every fan, owner, HC, are on the look out for another Brady, Marino, Elway, Montana, Steve Young, Bradshaw, Unitas, etc.

GoBroncos DownUnder
09-18-2009, 10:22 AM
Yes, he won the games by himself. Now let's see him take this team to the SB by himself because he is such a great leader.

See, I KNEW you'd finally figure it out! :thumbsup: Yay for jhns! :rofl:

GoBroncos DownUnder
09-18-2009, 10:27 AM
Hey OUBronco, I get it:

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/attachment.php?attachmentid=24970&stc=1&d=1253290131
AND
http://www.orangemane.com/BB/attachment.php?attachmentid=24968&stc=1&d=1253290032
AND
http://static.nfl.com/static/content//public/image/getty/2009/09000d5d81298bbd_gallery_600.jpg

All cause heart failure!!:rofl:

cmhargrove
09-18-2009, 10:38 AM
I didn't say leaders are overrated. I said you guys have no idea what a leader is.

You must think it was ortons leadership that got the entire offense to play far worse than they ever did last season. Maybe it was the leadership skills that got the receivers to stpop catching and for our o-line to be on pace for more sacks given up than the o-line you all dogged this offseason(the bears) had last season. Is that the leadership you are talking about, the stuff that inspires play? Yeah, we don't have it anymore.

Elway was immature - great leader.

Sharpe was immature - somewhat a leader.

Romo was insane - great leader.

Ray Lewis helped kill a guy - great leader in football

You guys need a reality check.

I don't want to go on with you jhns, because I understand that you constantly rationalize your own "expertise" and have a difficult time expanding your perspective by actually listening to others.

However, is can be seen that your opinion will ALWAYS be that the end justifies the means. I understand you must not be watching the games, but we won. So far, you have nothing to gripe about because we won (that is the justified result). So, until this team implodes - your farsical take on the state of the Broncos holds no weight.

If we truly end the season at 4-12, I will actually bend an ear your way. But right now, your just spewing a bunch of self-aggrandizing trash that isn't backed up by fact.

Week 1 was an ugly win, but we won. That is reality - accept it.

rastaman
09-18-2009, 10:45 AM
If he keeps sucking his good attitude won't go very far.

Orton gives off the good attitude-team player and HC emergency failsafe b/c he knows he's reached his limit as a player talent wise after 5 years in the league so now he's positioning himself for a backup with his next team and perhaps as a career backup. Nothing wrong with that....hey at least he accomplished a child hood dream of playing in the NFL, and the money ain't bad for a bckup QB. I wish Orton no ill-will or bad luck. I just recognize a tallent challenged QB who has reached the ceiling of his talent in the NFL.

Popps
09-18-2009, 10:48 AM
Week 1 was an ugly win, but we won. That is reality - accept it.

Good thread.

I have no idea if Orton is any sort of long-term answer. He may not even be a good short-term answer. I don't think we have enough evidence in to make any definitive decisions at this stage.

But, I do like his attitude, I've seen him play well in the past and his teammates seem to rally around him.

So, let's see where things go. We got the first win out of the way, and hopefully we can settle down and play a complete game on Sunday.

It's an exciting time to be a Broncos fan. You'll have a lot of people here trying to trash the team after wins (and losses) all season. A certain contingent would just rather be right than have the team win. We saw it in 2005 when that same group trashed the team all the way to the doorstep of a Superbowl.

Just enjoy the games, enjoy the wins and hopefully this thing will start taking shape as the season goes on.

oubronco
09-18-2009, 10:52 AM
:approve:

watermock
09-18-2009, 11:02 AM
<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/OO38rf1m0FU&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/OO38rf1m0FU&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

I'm not sure this is about Brian, Jake, Jay or Kyle.

But it's oh so true....

Popcorn Sutton
09-18-2009, 11:09 AM
Come on Brew, you know the QB gets all the credit and all the blame. In the NFL, the QB has always been the Face of the team and fans come to watch the marquee QB's.

Why do you think the NFL owners have not only changed the rules to protect the QB, the owners have tied the hands of defenses just to allow the QB to throw for more yards and more TD's, etc!

Hence, the QB is the nerve center and heart of an organization. The QB sells tickets, rallies and lead the players and give fan hope, joy, anger and disappointment.

As you will see or already know this is the position both Orton and Cutler find themselves in. You either win, show leadership, and talent......or face the attack GAUNLET of the media and the fans! Already Orton and Cutler will be compared to ATL-Ryan, BAL-Falco, NO-Brees, PITT-Rothlesburger, NE-Brady, even NYJ-Sanchez (depending how well he plays this year). etc.

Every fan, owner, HC, are on the look out for another Brady, Marino, Elway, Montana, Steve Young, Bradshaw, Unitas, etc.

Come on Rasta. The offensive effort last Sunday was bad all around. That's all I'm saying. I agree that teams are always on the lookout for the next Brady etc. Why wouldn't they be? Whether or not that is Jay Cutler remains to be seen.

Here's the deal. More often than not a team with a solid QB goes deep into the playoffs. I'm not going to argue with you there. I do not believe Orton is going to be the QB of the future. When Cutler was traded he was the best option of the teams willing to give up two first round picks. He is IMHO a stop gap while McDaniels and company finds the QB of the future.

Do I think this team can win with Orton? Absolutely but it starts with less dropped passes, a better running game, and less crucial penalties when the team is on the 20 yard line about to score to salt the game away. I'm not going to call for Orton's head after every pre-season game and the first game of the season. It's irrational. I have high hopes that he can surprise some people this year and if not I've stated many times that I'd be supportive if they give Simms a chance.

I have gone on record saying this year is a long shot to be a contender because of a number of factors including schedule, scheme changes on both sides of the ball, completely new coaching staff, 40% turnover in players, so on and so forth. I'm just happy to see a new breed of team players and I feel like overall we are headed in the right direction.

Cutler is a terrible loss but he's not the only young solid QB out there. There have been quite a few young QB's to come into this league over the last few years. Who knows? Maybe Brandstater will be the QB of the future but for now it's Orton and I'm ok with it. It seems like a waste of energy and time right now to knit pick his every move and completely disregard what the rest of the offense is doing. It was a poor team effort on Sunday. Period.

GoBroncos DownUnder
09-18-2009, 11:11 AM
Cutler is a terrible loss but he's not the only young solid QB out there.

Our "loss", is Green Bay's gain:
Packers cornerback Al Harris: "This is his fourth year; you'd think he'd be better than that. I don't know what he was thinking, what was going through his mind. The pressure got to him." [Milwaukee Journal Sentinel]

oubronco
09-18-2009, 11:13 AM
:pimp:

watermock
09-18-2009, 11:17 AM
Every fan, owner, HC, are on the look out for another Brady, Marino, Elway, Montana, Steve Young, Bradshaw, Unitas, etc.

That's why we got 2 firsts for Cutler. Orton was the Mike Herman of the deal.

Popcorn Sutton
09-18-2009, 11:19 AM
OUbronco, would you mind staying out of this thread? What message are you trying to convey to food jack a generally positive thread?

oubronco
09-18-2009, 11:23 AM
all I see is a bunch of b****ing about Cutler "He's gone move on"

I like your avatar though

Houshyamama
09-18-2009, 11:26 AM
Since when did this sport become so feminine? Since when did personality matter so much for guys that are paid to run full speed at each other and cause giant collisions? Sorry, I will take skill any day of the week over the social club bronco fans now want to start. Seriously, you have no chance of scoring a date with these guys so give it a rest. Since when was the nice guy the best for a physical sport anyways? Since when was a dumb athlete supposed to also be smart, mature, and social? I don't understand.....

Mcd needs to lose the ego and get a real QB in there. We have so much young offensive talent going to waste right now.

Leadership isn't a personality trait you dip ****, it's a character trait.

jhns
09-18-2009, 11:36 AM
Leadership isn't a personality trait you dip ****, it's a character trait.

I'm pretty sure I have been arguing that it isn't a personality trait this entire thread. So when you aree with someone, you also have to try insulting them? You probably haven't made many friends in your life.

Anyways, I will say it isn't a character trait either. Did romo have good character? Does ray lewis? These are some guys with no character and horrible personalities. They are also great leaders on the football field.

Rabb
09-18-2009, 11:37 AM
another great positive thread ruined by the same ****s, awesome

TailgateNut
09-18-2009, 11:41 AM
Leave it to jhns.

The Ignore feature works well for "Know it all ****wads".

jhns
09-18-2009, 11:46 AM
another great positive thread ruined by the same ****s, awesome

No wonder you all love the social club experiment going on with the Broncos. You all arew a bunch of women. "They are all being negative so I need to cry myself to sleep now! Wahhhhhh". "My QB was a meanie so we need to trade him before he hurts someones feelings, wahhhhhh". Get a grip. You make this fan base look bad.

Punisher
09-18-2009, 11:47 AM
http://neastmag.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/29_cheesesteak_lg.jpg

jhns
09-18-2009, 11:50 AM
Leave it to jhns.

The Ignore feature works well for "Know it all ****wads".

I am going to give all you girls the best possible advice I can. You wouldn't be so fragile if you would have heard it a lot more through your life.

Get over it.

Rabb
09-18-2009, 11:57 AM
No wonder you all love the social club experiment going on with the Broncos. You all arew a bunch of women. "They are all being negative so I need to cry myself to sleep now! Wahhhhhh". "My QB was a meanie so we need to trade him before he hurts someones feelings, wahhhhhh". Get a grip. You make this fan base look bad.

No, moron, that is not the case.

I am a fan of the team and don't expect happy unicorn land all the time but people like you and a few others seem to just wait for any opportunity to pick apart something positive and make the thread unreadable.

Debating topics and viewpoints is one thing. Trolling for reasons to inject the **** you spew isn't really productive to the board in general. I guess if the people in charge don't care, neither should I and I will just ignore you guys since that is all I can do. If I did not know better, I would have a hard time distinguishing some of you from fans of other teams here to cause trouble and actual fans of the Broncos here to talk with other fans. Don't bother replying to me, I am just going to put you on ignore after I submit this (no I don't think or expect you to care...just don't want to waste time you could be spending trolling other threads, you're welcome).

In conclusion, go **** yourself.

TailgateNut
09-18-2009, 12:06 PM
No, moron, that is not the case.



In conclusion, go **** yourself.


That's all you needed to say to this assclown.

He seems to tell himself on a daily basis that he knows everything and every other human being on the planet isn't as knowledgeable as he.

jhns
09-18-2009, 12:06 PM
No, moron, that is not the case.

I am a fan of the team and don't expect happy unicorn land all the time but people like you and a few others seem to just wait for any opportunity to pick apart something positive and make the thread unreadable.

Debating topics and viewpoints is one thing. Trolling for reasons to inject the **** you spew isn't really productive to the board in general. I guess if the people in charge don't care, neither should I and I will just ignore you guys since that is all I can do. If I did not know better, I would have a hard time distinguishing some of you from fans of other teams here to cause trouble and actual fans of the Broncos here to talk with other fans. Don't bother replying to me, I am just going to put you on ignore after I submit this (no I don't think or expect you to care...just don't want to waste time you could be spending trolling other threads, you're welcome).

In conclusion, go **** yourself.

Ouch. I gotta say, this is a perfect "get over it" time.

I have tried just debating these points. Any time I try I just get the same crybabies that can't deal with reality and go crazy. It is ok though. I have no problem arguing like we are a bunch of 5 year olds either though. Either way, I just go off the response.

Going off your response, I should be adding a lot more "you are a stupid do-do head" in my posts.

beanerbronco
09-18-2009, 12:09 PM
With regards to Orton, I am going to have to quote/paraphrase the great Steve Smith from the Carolina Panthers:

"He's not even that good looking: (needs a haircut). As a person, I love him but I never will ever like him as a QB"

The fact that he seems like a good person makes me want to pull for him, yet his lack of zip when throwing the ball and the lack of scrambling abilities make me want to chop off his throwing arm. Although I will say that he made that nice throw to Graham on the run when we needed it most

gyldenlove
09-18-2009, 12:09 PM
I'll take Orton's attitude any day of the week. You notice how he says "WE" left 150-200 yards on the field. Never does he imply that another players was at fault. He is all team and I'm hoping he can succeed. I would love to see him play well enough to turn a few eyes this season. If he doesn't, Chris Simms is a heck of a team guy as well. We'll see how it plays out.

Of course he is not, most of the yards we left out there, he left himself. I would respect him more if he had said I left 150 yards out there, that would be more accurate.

Popcorn Sutton
09-18-2009, 12:10 PM
Of course he is not, most of the yards we left out there, he left himself. I would respect him more if he had said I left 150 yards out there, that would be more accurate.

This doesn't even merit a response. How Orton is supposed to catch the 7 dropped passes is beyond me.

jhns
09-18-2009, 12:13 PM
This doesn't even merit a response. How Orton is supposed to catch the 7 dropped passes is beyond me.

And the excuses begin.

LOL

This is going to be a long couple of years.

Br0nc0Buster
09-18-2009, 12:19 PM
You made the right decision

errand
09-18-2009, 12:48 PM
Since when did this sport become so feminine? Since when did personality matter so much for guys that are paid to run full speed at each other and cause giant collisions? Sorry, I will take skill any day of the week over the social club bronco fans now want to start. Seriously, you have no chance of scoring a date with these guys so give it a rest. Since when was the nice guy the best for a physical sport anyways? Since when was a dumb athlete supposed to also be smart, mature, and social? I don't understand.....

Mcd needs to lose the ego and get a real QB in there. We have so much young offensive talent going to waste right now.

Yeah you'll take skills over leadership, huh? OK...Vick has skills. Ryan Leaf had skills, Andre Ware had skills, Jeff George had skills, Jay cutler has skills.

As for wasting all this offensive talent, what good did having a "real" QB with skills, who couldn't lead a starving mob to a chow hall do us the last 3 seasons?

9-7 (your real skilled QB was 2-3) 7-9, and then we jumped to 8-8...and he's currently0-1 with the Bears. Meanwhile the unskilled unreal QB that replaced him is 22-12 as an NFL starter. 64% > 45%

errand
09-18-2009, 12:53 PM
Our SB teams that also set a record for most wins in a 3 season span were filled with immature clowns. Don't kid yourself. Good play is real leadership, not acting nice or taking blame. You all need to join some organized sports.

Really? Name them...name one of our SB winning team's players that were immature clowns.

jhns
09-18-2009, 01:07 PM
Really? Name them...name one of our SB winning team's players that were immature clowns.

Ummm.... Well three pretty easy ones are Sharpe, Elway, and Romo. That team was filled with them though.

jhns
09-18-2009, 01:11 PM
Yeah you'll take skills over leadership, huh? OK...Vick has skills. Ryan Leaf had skills, Andre Ware had skills, Jeff George had skills, Jay cutler has skills.

As for wasting all this offensive talent, what good did having a "real" QB with skills, who couldn't lead a starving mob to a chow hall do us the last 3 seasons?

9-7 (your real skilled QB was 2-3) 7-9, and then we jumped to 8-8...and he's currently0-1 with the Bears. Meanwhile the unskilled unreal QB that replaced him is 22-12 as an NFL starter. 64% > 45%

You keep in your delussional world of these team stats being all on the individuals amd I will continue to live in reality. Anyways, you are a little premature on this argument. They played one of the best teams in the league and barely lost. We played one of the worst and won on a fluke play. Are you sure this is what you want to hang your hat on? I will be sure to bring it back up in about 3-4 weeks.

Tombstone RJ
09-18-2009, 01:37 PM
Ummm.... Well three pretty easy ones are Sharpe, Elway, and Romo. That team was filled with them though.

Wrong. you fail.

Elway was an immature clown? How?

Sharpe was a great team guy and a media sensation. Immature, no. Media savy, yes.

Romo was the "bad guy" on a defense that won 2 SBs. He gave the defense attitude and focus. Aside from spitting in Stokely's face, nothing he did as a Bronco adversly affected the team.

TailgateNut
09-18-2009, 01:43 PM
Wrong. you fail.

Elway was an immature clown? How?

Sharpe was a great team guy and a media sensation. Immature, no. Media savy, yes.

Romo was the "bad guy" on a defense that won 2 SBs. He gave the defense attitude and focus. Aside from spitting in Stokely's face, nothing he did as a Bronco adversly affected the team.


You have to excuse jhns. When Romo, Sharpe and Elway were at the top of their game he was just a snot nosed teenager tryin to make it to "third base" with his Jr. High and HS boyfriends.

jhns
09-18-2009, 01:44 PM
Wrong. you fail.

Elway was an immature clown? How?

Sharpe was a great team guy and a media sensation. Immature, no. Media savy, yes.

Romo was the "bad guy" on a defense that won 2 SBs. He gave the defense attitude and focus. Aside from spitting in Stokely's face, nothing he did as a Bronco adversly affected the team.

Elway cried his way off his first team because his dad didn't like the coach. He then said "its him or me" when here and talking about reeves. All the early elway media was that he was immature.

Your other excuses are just laughable. What exactly did cutler do to hurt the team when he cried? Anyways, I gave examples of immature players. My entire argument is that immature players can be leaders and don't hurt the team. I'm not even dure why you would include that last statement.

TonyR
09-18-2009, 01:46 PM
Ummm.... Well three pretty easy ones are Sharpe, Elway, and Romo. That team was filled with them though.

What are you talking about? How many off field incidents did these guys have while on the team? How many times did they loaf it at practice or in games? How many times did they get injured acting like idiots in the offseason? 911 calls? Arrests? Trials? Do you have anything to back up your stupidity?

jhns
09-18-2009, 01:51 PM
What are you talking about? How many off field incidents did these guys have while on the team? How many times did they loaf it at practice or in games? How many times did they get injured acting like idiots in the offseason? 911 calls? Arrests? Trials? Do you have anything to back up your stupidity?

I'm sorry but are you under the impression that I am defending marshall with this? I'm not. I would understand getting rid of marshall as he has actually done things that get you in trouble with the league and he does stuff that hurts the team. Completely different argument there.

GoBroncos DownUnder
09-18-2009, 01:54 PM
Romo was the "bad guy" on a defense that won 2 SBs. He gave the defense attitude and focus. Aside from spitting in Stokely's face, nothing he did as a Bronco adversly affected the team.
Didn't Romo win THREE Super Bowls? (SF?)
And I believe it was JJ Stokes face he spat in? (Or was it TO?)

Romo ... well known for his HOT wife!:~ohyah!:

Tombstone RJ
09-18-2009, 01:59 PM
Elway cried his way off his first team because his dad didn't like the coach. He then said "its him or me" when here and talking about reeves. All the early elway media was that he was immature.

Your other excuses are just laughable. What exactly did cutler do to hurt the team when he cried?

Wrong again.

Elway said he'd rather play for the Yankees than play for the Colts. The Colts flat out sucked donkey balls and you can't deny this. Elway had the skill set to dictate where and who he played for. In fact, he can probably be considered evolutionary if not revolutionary in his ability to control his own destiny as an athlete.

As for his relationship with Reeves, are you kidding me? Reeves is the moron who drafted Maddox to replace Elway instead of drafting Pickens (a great WR who could have helped the team). Reeves and Elway did not always see eye to eye, but that is because Reeve's idea of offense was Sammy Winder three yards and a cloud of dust. Can you imagin how many SBs Elway would have won with Bill Walsh?

In the end, Reeves was fired so that should tell you something right there. Bowlen knew he could win with Elway, not so much with Reeves. Guess what, Elway and Shanny won 2 SBs in a row, and could have possibly won 3 SBs in a row had they not choked in 1996/97 against the Jagz.

As for the media painting Elway as a spoiled kid, that was simply the backlash from the draft, and nothing more. Elway was always the consumate professional on and off the field.

Nice dodge on the rest of my post.

As for Cutler, what did he do? Hmm, lets think about this for a second... he was clickish in the lockeroom (he had his group of friends and pretty much isolated himself, not saying this is bad, but it certainly doesn't help the lockerroom and it doesn't help the team as a whole), he was a lousy media guy (his interviews are still a joke), he comes off as nonchalant and non caring, and he forced his way off the team when Bates was axed, plus, I believe he was pissed at Bowlen for axing Shanny without consulting him first. Yah, what a guy!

jhns
09-18-2009, 02:07 PM
Wrong again.

Elway said he'd rather play for the Yankees than play for the Colts. The Colts flat out sucked donkey balls and you can't deny this. Elway had the skill set to dictate where and who he played for. In fact, he can probably be considered evolutionary if not revolutionary in his ability to control his own destiny as an athlete.

As for his relationship with Reeves, are you kidding me? Reeves is the moron who drafted Maddox to replace Elway instead of drafting Pickens (a great WR who could have helped the team). Reeves and Elway did not always see eye to eye, but that is because Reeve's idea of offense was Sammy Winder three yards and a cloud of dust. Can you imagin how many SBs Elway would have won with Bill Walsh?

In the end, Reeves was fired so that should tell you something right there. Bowlen knew he could win with Elway, not so much with Reeves. Guess what, Elway and Shanny won 2 SBs in a row, and could have possibly won 3 SBs in a row had they not choked in 1996/97 against the Jagz.

As for the media painting Elway as a spoiled kid, that was simply the backlash from the draft, and nothing more. Elway was always the consumate professional on and off the field.

Nice dodge on the rest of my post.

As for Cutler, what did he do? Hmm, lets think about this for a second... he was clickish in the lockeroom (he had his group of friends and pretty much isolated himself, not saying this is bad, but it certainly doesn't help the lockerroom and it doesn't help the team as a whole), he was a lousy media guy (his interviews are still a joke), he comes off as nonchalant and non caring, and he forced his way off the team when Bates was axed, plus, I believe he was pissed at Bowlen for axing Shanny without consulting him first. Yah, what a guy!

Just because you think there is justification for being immature doesn't mean these guys weren't immature. The only things you could even think of for cutler hurting the team was a bunch of fan rumors. What a joke. He did nothing to hurt the team. He even worked all of the last two offseasons just to help the team.

I didn't dodge your excuses for Romo and Sharpe. It is just to obvious and isn't worth arguing. You are showing that you have no ability to be rational when you say those guys were mature.

Popps
09-18-2009, 02:24 PM
Ummm.... Well three pretty easy ones are Sharpe, Elway, and Romo. That team was filled with them though.

Good point, boss.

Elway and Brandon Marshall are pretty much equals in regards to work ethic, leadership and winning intangibles.

::)


Honestly, you're just getting your ass kicked in here. Not sure why you bother.

2KBack
09-18-2009, 02:25 PM
Wrong again.

Elway said he'd rather play for the Yankees than play for the Colts. The Colts flat out sucked donkey balls and you can't deny this. Elway had the skill set to dictate where and who he played for. In fact, he can probably be considered evolutionary if not revolutionary in his ability to control his own destiny as an athlete.

As for his relationship with Reeves, are you kidding me? Reeves is the moron who drafted Maddox to replace Elway instead of drafting Pickens (a great WR who could have helped the team). Reeves and Elway did not always see eye to eye, but that is because Reeve's idea of offense was Sammy Winder three yards and a cloud of dust. Can you imagin how many SBs Elway would have won with Bill Walsh?

In the end, Reeves was fired so that should tell you something right there. Bowlen knew he could win with Elway, not so much with Reeves. Guess what, Elway and Shanny won 2 SBs in a row, and could have possibly won 3 SBs in a row had they not choked in 1996/97 against the Jagz.

As for the media painting Elway as a spoiled kid, that was simply the backlash from the draft, and nothing more. Elway was always the consumate professional on and off the field.

Nice dodge on the rest of my post.

As for Cutler, what did he do? Hmm, lets think about this for a second... he was clickish in the lockeroom (he had his group of friends and pretty much isolated himself, not saying this is bad, but it certainly doesn't help the lockerroom and it doesn't help the team as a whole), he was a lousy media guy (his interviews are still a joke), he comes off as nonchalant and non caring, and he forced his way off the team when Bates was axed, plus, I believe he was pissed at Bowlen for axing Shanny without consulting him first. Yah, what a guy!

To further elaborate on the Elway issue. Elway was perfectly forthcoming in letting the colts know that if they picked him, he would play baseball. Elway never whined his way off the team, he made it perfectly clear that he was never going to even be on that team...well before the draft.

jhns
09-18-2009, 02:29 PM
Good point, boss.

Elway and Brandon Marshall are pretty much equals in regards to work ethic, leadership and winning intangibles.

::)


Honestly, you're just getting your ass kicked in here. Not sure why you bother.

What are you talking about? Someone needs to go back to 3rd grade English. I'm not sure what you are reading as no one has argued anything close to that.

Dedhed
09-18-2009, 02:41 PM
Since when did this sport become so feminine? Since when did personality matter so much for guys that are paid to run full speed at each other and cause giant collisions? Sorry, I will take skill any day of the week over the social club bronco fans now want to start. Seriously, you have no chance of scoring a date with these guys so give it a rest. Since when was the nice guy the best for a physical sport anyways? Since when was a dumb athlete supposed to also be smart, mature, and social? I don't understand.....

Mcd needs to lose the ego and get a real QB in there. We have so much young offensive talent going to waste right now.

I don't know, maybe the folks who drafted Ryan Leaf could shed some light on what it's like to draft a million dollar skill set with no brains, maturity, or social skills.

jhns
09-18-2009, 02:46 PM
I don't know, maybe the folks who drafted Ryan Leaf could shed some light on what it's like to draft a million dollar skill set with no brains, maturity, or social skills.

While the people who drafted Kyle Orton can tell you what its like to draft a player with no skill.

By the way, ryan leaf sucked. I'm not sure how you define skill but it obviously isn't the same way I do. A skill set and being skilled are two different things. A skill set means people THINK you will bw skilled.

GoBroncos DownUnder
09-18-2009, 02:52 PM
What are you talking about? Someone needs to go back to 3rd grade English. I'm not sure what you are reading as no one has argued anything close to that.

Wow ... you really just don't "get it" ... do you!?

I'd laugh or poke fun at you, but I'm just astounded to the point where all I feel is pity for you. I'm sorry.

jhns
09-18-2009, 02:57 PM
Wow ... you really just don't "get it" ... do you!?

I'd laugh or poke fun at you, but I'm just astounded to the point where all I feel is pity for you. I'm sorry.

You are right. I don't get why people say random things like that as if someone is actually arguing it. It is almost commical how dumb some people are.

For those of you that actually hate on these players for being immature, you are some of the funniest people here. Your posts are filled with childish insults and 3rd grade type arguments. I don't really get why you hate players that act like you. It doesn't make much sense to me.

Dedhed
09-18-2009, 03:14 PM
While the people who drafted Kyle Orton can tell you what its like to draft a player with no skill.

By the way, ryan leaf sucked. I'm not sure how you define skill but it obviously isn't the same way I do. A skill set and being skilled are two different things. A skill set means people THINK you will bw skilled.

Captain Backtrack strikes again! When you find yourself getting your arse pummeled on an internet message board always resort to semantics and try to convince people that the words you used actually mean something totally different in the context.

I'm sure Tom Brady had exactly the skills your talking about. Get a grip.

jhns
09-18-2009, 03:20 PM
Captain Backtrack strikes again! When you find yourself getting your arse pummeled on an internet message board always resort to semantics and try to convince people that the words you used actually mean something totally different in the context.

I'm sure Tom Brady had exactly the skills your talking about. Get a grip.

I'm sorry but what are you even arguing? It seems everyone is trying to make my argument into some random thing they want to talk about.

Let's refresh. This thread is about Orton being the right guy. I said a real leader has to be good at this game. I have never said a good player is automatically a leader. I then also said maturity doesn't matter and gave examples of many great leaders that were also immature.

So now, what does some random crap player have to do with any of this? I am assuming you are saying he was a good player and insinuating that I said all good players are good leaders. I then pointed out that he wasn't a good player. If that isn't what you are arguing, you will have to fill me in on what I should be arguing.

Pseudofool
09-18-2009, 03:20 PM
I am one of the funniest people here. My posts are filled with childish insults and 3rd grade type arguments. I don't really get why everyone hates posters that act like me. I don't make much sense.fify

jhns
09-18-2009, 03:23 PM
fify

See what I mean?

I don't know what fify is supposed to mean. Maybe one of you nerds can fill me in.

Pseudofool
09-18-2009, 03:25 PM
See what I mean?

I don't know what fify is supposed to mean. Maybe one of you nerds can fill me in.Did you try googling it, you lazy bitch?

gyldenlove
09-18-2009, 03:29 PM
This doesn't even merit a response. How Orton is supposed to catch the 7 dropped passes is beyond me.

For every yard a reciever left out there with a dropped pass, Orton left 3 with bad decisions, poor passes and poor reads.

jhns
09-18-2009, 03:29 PM
Did you try googling it, you lazy b****?

No but you need to learn how to use words before actually using them. Although, being dumb does make the reps funnier.

Pseudofool
09-18-2009, 03:34 PM
No but you need to learn how to use words before actually useing them. Although, being dumb does make the reps funnier.When you insult someone else's intelligence--especially, when you're wrong about, say, the misuse of a word (misogyny in this case)--you might want to make sure you can ****ing spell and punctuate correctly.

jhns
09-18-2009, 03:38 PM
When you insult someone else's intelligence--especially, when you're wrong about, say, the misuse of a word (misogyny in this case)--you might want to make sure you can ****ing spell and punctuate correctly.

What didn't I spell correctly? Did it really take you 10 minutes to make this post? I saw a word spelled wrong and changed it instantly.

If you did use that correctly, you called yourself, and all others that cry about that stuff, women. So I guess you did use it correctly. I was trying to give you the benifit of the doubt and didn't think you were insulting yourself. It is almost sad if you really do know what it means.

Pseudofool
09-18-2009, 03:44 PM
If you did use that correctly, you called yourself, and all others that cry about that stuff, women. So I guess you did use it corectly.I'm quoting this for posterity. One of the single worst insults of all time; it's convoluted, sexist, and makes no sense.

Dedhed
09-18-2009, 03:45 PM
I'm sorry but what are you even arguing? It seems everyone is trying to make my argument into some random thing they want to talk about.

Let's refresh. This thread is about Orton being the right guy. I said a real leader has to be good at this game. I have never said a good player is automatically a leader. I then also said maturity doesn't matter and gave examples of many great leaders that were also immature.

So now, what does some random crap player have to do with any of this? I am assuming you are saying he was a good player and insinuating that I said all good players are good leaders. I then pointed out that he wasn't a good player. If that isn't what you are arguing, you will have to fill me in on what I should be arguing.

Saying maturity doesn't matter is just day 1 stupid.

Tom Brady was a good leader before he ever played a down in this league, and if you don't think that more than makes up for a lack of physical skill then you just aren't ever going to get it.

jhns
09-18-2009, 03:52 PM
Saying maturity doesn't matter is just day 1 stupid.

Tom Brady was a good leader before he ever played a down in this league, and if you don't think that more than makes up for a lack of physical skill then you just aren't ever going to get it.

Brady is and always was good. Your point fails.

Chris
09-18-2009, 03:58 PM
:approve:

Thank you.

Keep it healthy.

jhns
09-18-2009, 03:59 PM
I'm quoting this for posterity. One of the single worst insults of all time; it's convoluted, sexist, and makes no sense.

If you feel so strongly about it, why did you say it? You don't make a lot of sense.

Houshyamama
09-18-2009, 04:34 PM
I'm pretty sure I have been arguing that it isn't a personality trait this entire thread. So when you aree with someone, you also have to try insulting them? You probably haven't made many friends in your life.

Anyways, I will say it isn't a character trait either. Did romo have good character? Does ray lewis? These are some guys with no character and horrible personalities. They are also great leaders on the football field.

The OP was talking about his leadership and all-around good character. Your first post was all about how his personality doesn't matter. I don't care how you twisted the rest of your argument throughout this thread. I was making a comment on your original post, I didn't read the rest of your trash and won't be reading anything else of yours. You're an arguer, I get it. You just pick some random point of view and argue it because you like getting reactions out of people. I'll not waste my time. Take it easy dude.

errand
09-18-2009, 09:38 PM
Ummm.... Well three pretty easy ones are Sharpe, Elway, and Romo. That team was filled with them though.

immature clowns...how so?

errand
09-18-2009, 09:58 PM
You keep in your delussional world of these team stats being all on the individuals amd I will continue to live in reality. Anyways, you are a little premature on this argument. They played one of the best teams in the league and barely lost. We played one of the worst and won on a fluke play. Are you sure this is what you want to hang your hat on? I will be sure to bring it back up in about 3-4 weeks.



Cutler is 17-21 as an NFL starter. He's thrown 15 INT's in his last 10 games that count, versus 13 TD's winning only 4 of them. A 40% win pct.

Meanwhile building on his 22-12 record as an NFL starter, Orton in his last 10meaningful games has 11 TD's and only 8 INt's winning 7 of them....which is a 70% clip.

And over the past 16 games he's beaten Carson Palmer, Drew Brees, Donovan McNabb, Aaron Rodgers, and Peyton Manning....all who I might add are much more talented QB's....with less physical skills, and a weak supporting cast.

jhns
09-18-2009, 11:54 PM
Cutler is 17-21 as an NFL starter. He's thrown 15 INT's in his last 10 games that count, versus 13 TD's winning only 4 of them. A 40% win pct.

Meanwhile building on his 22-12 record as an NFL starter, Orton in his last 10meaningful games has 11 TD's and only 8 INt's winning 7 of them....which is a 70% clip.

And over the past 16 games he's beaten Carson Palmer, Drew Brees, Donovan McNabb, Aaron Rodgers, and Peyton Manning....all who I might add are much more talented QB's....with less physical skills, and a weak supporting cast.

That is a lot of for a single man. Winning against entire NFL teams. I missed when we started the debate of Orton being the best player ever. Also, Cutler ran for a couple TDs in there. You missed those.

Dedhed
09-19-2009, 07:14 AM
Brady is and always was good. Your point fails.

So good that he was skipped over by every team in the NFL at least 5 times? Yeah.

Explain Steve Young using your master theory. Explain Rod Smith.

jhns
09-19-2009, 08:29 AM
So good that he was skipped over by every team in the NFL at least 5 times? Yeah.

Explain Steve Young using your master theory. Explain Rod Smith.

So because teams skip them in the draft, they aren't good? Nice theory.

Quoydogs
09-19-2009, 10:32 AM
One of the biggest issues with "the fan base" is that we have 20% who are upset about the fumigation of Jay, 20% who are moaning about the "loss" of the former "Mastermind", 20% who are McD haters, 20% who hate Kyle (because of Jays pink slip) and 20% who are willing to see what the new season and revamped team will bring to the table.

Well where do I fit in ?? I am the fan that has no problem with Orton other then I just don't think he has what it takes to be a NFL starting QB. Just Curious.

Broncos4tw
09-19-2009, 10:51 AM
I'm just worried because no team without a stellar defense has won the SB with an average QB. Look at the top rated teams right now in the league. They all have something in common: franchise QBs. There are franchise QBs on losing teams as well, if they are so poorly run that you have no chance anyways (i.e. the Lions), you are screwed. But the teams that continue into the playoffs are the ones with solid QBs.

Orton may lead us to a winning season. He may do this for several years. But once you get to the postseason, you need to have a solid QB that can occasionally put the team on his shoulders and carry it for a win. I can't ever see Orton doing this. This is why those teams fail in the playoffs. Because when the other team is also very solid, and either score in bunches, or are excellent in defense, you need someone that can do all things. Long balls, sideline throws, movement and scrambling.. someone that can get the job done.

I am not sure Orton can do that. So while I am behind him and the team, I honestly am not sure we can ever win a SB with that guy running our offense. He is too limiting in what he can do. The best system in the world doesn't matter if it is shut down. When that happens, you need a playmaker. He isn't one, as far as I can tell.

How far can Orton really take us?

Quoydogs
09-19-2009, 11:00 AM
I'm just worried because no team without a stellar defense has won the SB with an average QB. Look at the top rated teams right now in the league. They all have something in common: franchise QBs. There are franchise QBs on losing teams as well, if they are so poorly run that you have no chance anyways (i.e. the Lions), you are screwed. But the teams that continue into the playoffs are the ones with solid QBs.

Orton may lead us to a winning season. He may do this for several years. But once you get to the postseason, you need to have a solid QB that can occasionally put the team on his shoulders and carry it for a win. I can't ever see Orton doing this. This is why those teams fail in the playoffs. Because when the other team is also very solid, and either score in bunches, or are excellent in defense, you need someone that can do all things. Long balls, sideline throws, movement and scrambling.. someone that can get the job done.

I am not sure Orton can do that. So while I am behind him and the team, I honestly am not sure we can ever win a SB with that guy running our offense. He is too limiting in what he can do. The best system in the world doesn't matter if it is shut down. When that happens, you need a playmaker. He isn't one, as far as I can tell.

How far can Orton really take us?
Yep this being my point. I like Orton, he seems like a team player. I don't see him getting drunk and beating women or shooting himself in the leg. He just does not have what it takes to get it done. He could not with the bears, he could not in preseason and he did not in game one. I would love to keep the guy as a back up though.

As to a team winning a SB with a no body QB I think that was Baltimore.

baja
09-19-2009, 11:59 AM
I'm just worried because no team without a stellar defense has won the SB with an average QB. Look at the top rated teams right now in the league. They all have something in common: franchise QBs. There are franchise QBs on losing teams as well, if they are so poorly run that you have no chance anyways (i.e. the Lions), you are screwed. But the teams that continue into the playoffs are the ones with solid QBs.

Orton may lead us to a winning season. He may do this for several years. But once you get to the postseason, you need to have a solid QB that can occasionally put the team on his shoulders and carry it for a win. I can't ever see Orton doing this. This is why those teams fail in the playoffs. Because when the other team is also very solid, and either score in bunches, or are excellent in defense, you need someone that can do all things. Long balls, sideline throws, movement and scrambling.. someone that can get the job done.

I am not sure Orton can do that. So while I am behind him and the team, I honestly am not sure we can ever win a SB with that guy running our offense. He is too limiting in what he can do. The best system in the world doesn't matter if it is shut down. When that happens, you need a playmaker. He isn't one, as far as I can tell.

How far can Orton really take us?

You mean like Elway did for us in our 2 SBs, tell that to TD.

No1BroncoFan
09-19-2009, 01:06 PM
You mean like Elway did for us in our 2 SBs, tell that to TD.
Amen. In fact, Elway's passing game was quite pedestrian in SB XXXII While TD played with a migraine.

Ben

TotallyScrewed
09-19-2009, 01:50 PM
I think as the season goes on Jay fans will realize what we've been trying to tell them for years. He's a strong armed QB with average decision making ability coupled with a really bad attitude/leadership skills. That equals loser as his career has always proven.

Orton certainly needs some work but we have to give the guy some time to learn this offense along with the rest of the TEAM. Whoops I used that team word. I've been posting here for almost a decade now and it still amazes me that some football fans can't grasp the win as a team or lose as a team concept. The key is to have a QB that the team rallys around and guess what. Jake Plummer was that guy. Maybe Orton can be. Remember Orton was only a small part of that trade for Cutler so it's yet to be seen how that trade truly pans out.

Patience......You people need to have patience and see how all this plays out.

Oh and Cmhargrove.....Welcome to positive side my brother. Enjoy the season.

We all heard the opinions. Why bring up the rant continuously when we won't know for quite a while yet? Try focusing on Denver's problems or accomplishments.

Right now...

I think the defensive energy is better than I seen in a while.

I think the offense is lost and special teams is middle of the road.

Of course, I can't figure fans that would take Orton over Cutler or just about anybody else.

baja
09-19-2009, 02:43 PM
We all heard the opinions. Why bring up the rant continuously when we won't know for quite a while yet? Try focusing on Denver's problems or accomplishments.

Right now...

I think the defensive energy is better than I seen in a while.

I think the offense is lost and special teams is middle of the road.

<b>Of course, I can't figure fans that would take Orton over Cutler or just about anybody else.

If it were Orton for Cutler straight up without the picks and the intangibles (leadership, team harmony, decision making at the QB position) than I would say you have a point.

tsiguy96
09-19-2009, 02:45 PM
its silly to say that elway NEEDED td or vice versa. together tehy formed a deadly combo the NFL has rarely seen since, why cant you just view them as mutually beneficial to each other instead of implying one needed the other to succeed and its only one directional?

Broncos4tw
09-19-2009, 04:32 PM
You mean like Elway did for us in our 2 SBs, tell that to TD.

The Packers played to stop the pass, daring us to beat them with the run. Which is what we did. The next year, the Falcons defense dared Elway to beat them, thinking he couldn't do it. Well, he did... he carried the team to victory.

Elway had a great year in 97. Are you laughably comparing Elway to Orton? Saying that Elway didn't have the goods to carry the team on his shoulders? Are you on drugs?

That's the point. QBs like Elway, or even less amazing but still very capable QBs can when the chips are down, carry the teams to wins. I can't see Orton doing this. EVER. Comparing Elway to Orton isn't making you look any smarter about this, btw. :giggle:

Drek
09-19-2009, 05:03 PM
The Packers played to stop the pass, daring us to beat them with the run. Which is what we did. The next year, the Falcons defense dared Elway to beat them, thinking he couldn't do it. Well, he did... he carried the team to victory.

Elway had a great year in 97. Are you laughably comparing Elway to Orton? Saying that Elway didn't have the goods to carry the team on his shoulders? Are you on drugs?

That's the point. QBs like Elway, or even less amazing but still very capable QBs can when the chips are down, carry the teams to wins. I can't see Orton doing this. EVER. Comparing Elway to Orton isn't making you look any smarter about this, btw. :giggle:
He did it in Chicago, as a rookie with a good defense and last year on a team with a mediocre to bad defense. 9-7 if I recall, and with basically no supporting cast.

A lot of people thought Drew Brees was pretty mediocre and nothing special as a QB. He went to New Orleans, found an offense that fits his skills, and now he's the most productive QB in the league every year.

He and Orton happened to go to the same college, in the same offensive system there, and both struggled early in their careers adapting to pro style offenses. Brees has flourished in a spread offense like what he ran while in college. Orton is just now being given that chance.

I'm not saying he's a lock to play like Drew Brees, Brees was a 2nd round pick while Orton was a 4th. Brees got to start basically his entire early career while Orton continually had the job taken from him and given back to Grossman. But there are more than a few similarities between the two. Its far from a guarantee that Orton can't blossom into being a very productive QB.

Atwater His Ass
09-19-2009, 05:06 PM
wait wait wait....are we now comapring Ortong favorably to Brady in here?

AHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHA

lex
09-20-2009, 02:24 AM
I'll take Orton's attitude any day of the week. You notice how he says "WE" left 150-200 yards on the field. Never does he imply that another players was at fault. He is all team and I'm hoping he can succeed. I would love to see him play well enough to turn a few eyes this season. If he doesn't, Chris Simms is a heck of a team guy as well. We'll see how it plays out.

Profound

errand
09-20-2009, 03:33 AM
The Packers played to stop the pass, daring us to beat them with the run. Which is what we did. The next year, the Falcons defense dared Elway to beat them, thinking he couldn't do it. Well, he did... he carried the team to victory.

Elway had a great year in 97. Are you laughably comparing Elway to Orton? Saying that Elway didn't have the goods to carry the team on his shoulders? Are you on drugs?

That's the point. QBs like Elway, or even less amazing but still very capable QBs can when the chips are down, carry the teams to wins. I can't see Orton doing this. EVER. Comparing Elway to Orton isn't making you look any smarter about this, btw. :giggle:

Nobody is comparing Orton to Elway....with the exception that both were team players. Elway numerous times renegotiated his contract to free up cap money to bring in guys like Neil Smith.

Orton isn't about flashy stats, he's about winning games...he doesn't care who gets the credit as long as the team wins. You don't think Kyle knows his limitations as an NFL QB? What he brings to the table isn't the big gun, it's a calm demeanor that doesn't panic or point fingers. Jake was the same way. Jay unfortunately hasn't proven to be like Jake or Kyle in that respect.

And you're right Elway as a franchise QB was able to overcome shoddy defense and special teams play from his Bronco brethren to elevate the play of those around him. What kills me is alot of people (myself included earlier this year) still considered Jay a franchise QB, despite the fact that he hasn't been able to elevate his teammates level of play nor overcome shoddy defense by them. Doesn't mean he can't...but it does mean he hasn't.

And make no mistake that while John was a big reason we went to 5 SB's while he was here...he wasn't the sole reason. I recall Mark Jackson making a great 21 yard catch of a high ball on 3rd and 18 during "The Drive". He leaped up and brought it down. I recall Steve Watson making a nice fingertip grab to set up the GW kick in OT.

I recall Vance Johnson racing down the sideline for like 40 yards after Elway tossed him a lob pass to set up the GW FG. I recall Jeremiah Castille stripping the ball and recovering the fumble when Earnest Byner had clear sailing to the tying score in Browns/Broncos II.

The point is while it's ludicrous to compare Orton and Elway as talents it's just as ludicrous to say Elway took us to those SB's by himself. Someone had to catch his passes, throw a block, gain a tough yard, intercept a pass, recover a fumble, kick a FG in order for him to be sucessful as well. It wasn't John and 10 guys from a human rummage sale. He too had players who proved to be pretty heady players in their own right.

Guys like Steve Watson, Steve Sewell, Vance Johnson, Mark Jackson, Clarence Kay, Dennis Smith, Tom Jackson, Karl Mecklenburg, Simon Fletcher, Rulon Jones, Louis Wright, Sammy Winder....unless of course you think they all sucked too.

The Broncos didn't lose those 3 super bowls because they sucked...they were pretty good teams, they just weren't as good as their opponents.

They just happened to run into either the NFL's top team ('86 Giants and '89 49ers) or the one that was playing well once it made the playoffs. ('87 Redskins)

The difference in those we lost and the ones we won was the supporting cast for sure...the '80's Brncos were good enough to get there...they just weren't good enough to win it....and the '90's Broncos were quite possibly the NFL's best during those three years '96-'98.

errand
09-20-2009, 03:42 AM
He did it in Chicago, as a rookie with a good defense and last year on a team with a mediocre to bad defense. 9-7 if I recall, and with basically no supporting cast.
.

Actually, Orton went 9-6 as the Bears starter last year...Grossman was the Qb for the loss vs Titans. His top receiver was Forte a RB...his next was TE Olsen, then Hester, then the #2 TE Clark.

It's amazing how people looked at Mike and never wonder how he could get any RB to produce in his "system". They just knew he had a proven sytem, and it would work regardless of who we had carrying the rock.

And now here comes a coach who helped turn a 6th round college QB who played behind Brian Griese, into a perrenial all-pro who has more rings than Elway, and alot of other QB's in the hall of fame...and has also helped a 7th round career back-up in college and pros into a pro bowl alternate who put up solid numbers...and yet we don't trust his system? McDaniel's system has a proven track record of success.

oubronco
09-20-2009, 08:32 AM
wait wait wait....are we now comapring Ortong favorably to Brady in here?

AHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHA

:spit: Good Morning Mane