PDA

View Full Version : Orton wasnt that great but he wasnt that bad.


Rock Chalk
09-13-2009, 07:09 PM
I know its passe to bash Orton here. Im not saying he had a great game but consider this, I know its hard to fathom but seriously, stop and look at this.

On the surface, Orton was 17/28 for 243 yards and 1 TD.

Now, we all know 87 yards came on a tipped ball that we got a lucky break on.

First Drive (this is only the passes):
First pass, Orton incomplete to B Marshall. He just dropped this.
Second pass. Orton incomplete to Stokely. Stokely was being absolutely mugged and no PI call and everyone in the chatroom saw this **** as well. That was on 3rd down after a promising start from the 20 we get to the 43 before the drive is derailed because of a missed call and another drop.

Second Drive:
3rd and 5, Orton to Stokely, tipped at the line. This is either on Orton if you hate him or a good defensive play by Cincy. With this crew, we will assume this is on Orton.

Third drive:
1st and 10, Orton sacked for -4 yards, this was a legit sack and Orton had no time. Good blitz by Cincy.
2nd and 14, Orton short to BMarsh for 8 yards.
3rd and 6 Orton sacked, this one was all Orton, and he blew this one.

Fourth drive:
Bubble screen to Gaffney completed for 1 yard on 1st and 10.
2nd and 9, deep pass to Marshall who lets it go right through his hands.
3rd and 9, Bubble screen to Gaffney for 3 yards, tipped at the line.
(Obviously, this drive is on Marshall, its a 3 and out because Marshall drops a catch right between his mittens. The playcalling on 3rd and 9 was also atrocious because even had the ball not been tipped (it was still completed) Dhani Jones was right on Gaffney anyway).

Fiftyh Drive:
2nd and 9, Orton to Royal for 7 yards.
3rd and 2 Orton to Royal incomplete, dropped pass by Royal but probably an ill advised throw as Royal got hammered on this play.

Sixth drive.
2nd and 3, Orton to Buckhalter for 7 yards.
2nd and 3 again, Orton incomplete to Gaffney (Dropped ball)
3rd and 3, Orton to Royal for 11 yards.
1st and 10, Orton deep to Gaffney for 21 yards. This was the replay where Gaffney bobbled but still managed to maintain control before going out.
1st and 10, Orton incomplete to Sheff, another dropped ball. Sheff got hit but he is a TE and is supposed to take that hit and hold on to the ball.
End of Half (we were short on time on this drive if you recall and we ran the ball a lot and did not use timeouts until the end.)

Seventh Drive:
This drive starts off with a negative run and then a penalty leaving us at 2nd and 19. We run, the on 3rd and 134 Orton passes short left to Marshall for 6 and he had Stokely open on the other side. I dont think he had much time on this play but he has to see that open receiver.

8th Drive:
2nd and 8, Orton to Graham for 10.
1st and 10, Orton to Marshall for 4.
2nd and 6, incomplete but penalty on Cincy, no play. Geathers was WAY off side on this play.
2nd and 1, Buckhalter loses a yard setting up...
3rd and 2. Orton incomplete to Peyton. Not the greatest throw but Peyton SHOULD have caught this ball. Another drop.

9th Drive:
1st and 10, Orton to Sheff for 29 yards.
2nd and 8 Orton scrambles because of pressure, gets 3 yards.
3rd and 5: Orton incomplete to Stokes on the dropped ball. This is Stokes drop, the earlier one he was interfered with badly.

10th Drive:
1st and 10, Orton to Hillis for 6.
2nd and 4, Orton incomplete to Royal, this is the play Royal got injured on.
3rd and 4, Orton to B Marsh for 9 yards.
2nd and 9, Orton to Graham for 8 yards, penalty on Denver for phantom Holding.
2nd and 19: Orton to Graham for 10.
3rd and 9: Orton to Graham for 20.
3rd and 10 (after two runs and a penalty), Orton to Buckhalter for 4*
*Penalty on play resulted in a pass play of 4 yards, penalty enforced at Denver 25 backing them up to 35. Net result was first down, penalty negated it bringing us to...
3rd and 16. Orton Sacked. Now, this was the worst thing that could happen but because of the way the pressure came, from the outside first and then up the middle, Orton had no where to escape out of the tackle box. His options were to take a sack (bad) or throw it up for grabs (which we all know would have ended badly). This is actually on McD here. We were in long FG range, the play call should have been a run that kept us at the minimum in field goal range. 3rd and 16's aren't converted often, the safe play was the run play here.

11th Drive:
Orton to BMarsh deep incomplete, almost picked.
Orton to Bmarsh deep left tipped, caught by Stokes ran for a TD 87 yards.
================================================== ==

Now the point is this. 4 dropped passes (I counted 7 total drops, 3 of which I put on Orton for putting his WRs in a bad spot) occurred on 3rd down where the player would have had enough for a first to extend the drives. On the 10th drive, Orton and the Broncos were moving the ball well only to be derailed by two phantom holding calls AND a phantom false start penalty in which the replay shows that Hamilton never moved (I never thught to look elsewhere on the line, maybe someone else moved and they got the number wrong?). Orton didn't play fantastic, BUT he didn't play as bad as people are saying.

Overall, Denver shot themselves in teh foot more than Cincy did anything to hurt them. Some bad decisions by Orton in who he chose to throw to, some bad situational playcalling by McD, some untimely drops by the receivers and some bogus penalties and no-calls all helped to contribute to the poor offensive performance BUT, the second half looked much better. And consider the glove and stitches, Orton did OK.

Would we have liked him to play better? Sure. But then I would have liked for Hillis, Marshall, Stokely, Scheff and Royal to all have caught their clutch 3rd down catches too. I would have liked to see the O-line a bit more disciplined or, at the least, the Refs call freaking holding on a consistent basis.

We should see improvement on both sides of the ball. Basically this is new for everyone (including us fans), so while there ARE some negatives from today, there is also room for hope and I saw a lot of encouraging signs.

THere is a question that Sassy brought up and I have yet to hear an answer for.

Early in the game, Buckhalter was kicking ass. (His first 3 runs on the first drive, 8, 14, 1 yards). Then we dont see him until the last drive of the first half, where he proceeds to get 7, 5 and 1 yards as well as a catch of 7 yards...

Second drive of the 3rd Quarter we see Buckhalter twice, for 11 yards and then -1 yards. We see a single pass attempt in the 4th quarter to him the rest of the game.

Moreno was completely ineffective and Jordon wasn't much better, why was Buckhalter so conspiciously absent most of the game when he was extremely effective when he was in there?

I thought maybe cramps, but Im not sure, was hoping someone else had heard something.

Garcia Bronco
09-13-2009, 07:14 PM
Lotta dropped balls today. Orton didn't have an A game, but the entire offense was out of sync. Anyone who claims otherwise is being an ass.

Mr. Elway
09-13-2009, 07:26 PM
Two of the sacks could have been avoided by Orton, obviously the last one being the most critical. That said, he lives to start another day. Could have been worse.

misturanderson
09-13-2009, 07:27 PM
Awesome analysis. I saw it that way as well. He lead a few players into big hits, not necessarily buddy passes, but he telegraphed a bit too much.

His stats look better than they should have because of that Stokely miracle, but they also looked worse than they should have because of some bad drops and bad refs.

Hopefully he has what it takes to keep us from losing games for the whole season and gets better as he gets healthy/more comfortable in the offense. I would still like us to take a look at a 1st or 2nd round QB in the draft, unless he improves tremendously by the end of the year.

All-in-all, I would say that if this game had been played by last year's team we either win 34-30 if we play mistake-free football the whole game or lose 10-34 when the whole team gives up after going down by 7 (last years defense would not hold the bengals) in the first quarter with the drops, penalties and 3-and-outs.

Rock Chalk
09-13-2009, 07:28 PM
Two of the sacks could have been avoided by Orton, obviously the last one being the most critical. That said, he lives to start another day. Could have been worse.

I dont think the last one was avoidable.

Pressure from all sides, the pocket almost immediately collapsed and he had no where to escape to. HIs ONLY option was to throw it up and we saw what happens with that.

It, IMO, was a bad play call. They went empty backfield and everyone and their mother saw a jail break blitz coming.

Rock Chalk
09-13-2009, 07:30 PM
Awesome analysis. I saw it that way as well. He lead a few players into big hits, not necessarily buddy passes, but he telegraphed a bit too much.

His stats look better than they should have because of that Stokely miracle, but they also looked worse than they should have because of some bad drops and bad refs.

Hopefully he has what it takes to keep us from losing games for the whole season and gets better as he gets healthy/more comfortable in the offense. I would still like us to take a look at a 1st or 2nd round QB in the draft, unless he improves tremendously by the end of the year.

All-in-all, I would say that if this game had been played by last year's team we either win 34-30 if we play mistake-free football the whole game or lose 10-34 when the whole team gives up after going down by 7 (last years defense would not hold the bengals) in the first quarter with the drops, penalties and 3-and-outs.

Oh yeah, he definitely has room for improvement on picking his targets, that being said our WRs need to catch those 3rd down passes.

Some of the play designs I thought were head scratches. Why are they running drag routes over the middle so short? I mean, a couple of those drag routes were right inside the linebacker's zones, they gotta go deeper than that. Im not sure if thats play design or bad route running though.

Garcia Bronco
09-13-2009, 07:30 PM
I dont think the last one was avoidable.

Pressure from all sides, the pocket almost immediately collapsed and he had no where to escape to. HIs ONLY option was to throw it up and we saw what happens with that.

It, IMO, was a bad play call. They went empty backfield and everyone and their mother saw a jail break blitz coming.

Exactly...he had no timeto dump that ball. Their defense beat our offensive line on that one.

bloodsunday
09-13-2009, 07:34 PM
What's killing us is the lack of a vertical passing game. All the teams we have played thus far (including preseason) just squat on the routes under 15 yards. I can't tell if it's Orton's ability or the play calling but either way, it has to open up a little bit. I think Orton's decision making is superior to Cutler's.

Part of the reason this offense works so well in NE because the threat of Moss is deadly. I don't see a WR or QB on our team that can stretch the field like that.

Beantown Bronco
09-13-2009, 07:35 PM
One of the big problems I had with him was his inaccuracy. For every dropped pass, there was a completed pass where his receiver had to completely alter their route or dive for a ball that wasn't anywhere near where it was intended to be. For a guy that can't throw deep, he needs to have stellar accuracy. Right now, I'll assume the finger had something to do with this.....but if it doesn't improve as the finger heals, I'll freak out.

Rock Chalk
09-13-2009, 07:38 PM
What's killing us is the lack of a vertical passing game. All the teams we have played thus far (including preseason) just squat on the routes under 15 yards. I can't tell if it's Orton's ability or the play calling but either way, it has to open up a little bit. I think Orton's decision making is superior to Cutler's.

Part of the reason this offense works so well in NE because the threat of Moss is deadly. I don't see a WR or QB on our team that can stretch the field like that.

We had 6 passes that were thrown over 20 yards today. Not all were caught, but Orton did throw it downfield more in one day than he did the entire pre-season.

Taco John
09-13-2009, 07:38 PM
I don't know. I thought Orton looked pretty bad.

Garcia Bronco
09-13-2009, 07:40 PM
If he can start completing some passes we can get that line to backoff. They were all up in the box today.

Rock Chalk
09-13-2009, 07:41 PM
One of the big problems I had with him was his inaccuracy. For every dropped pass, there was a completed pass where his receiver had to completely alter their route or dive for a ball that wasn't anywhere near where it was intended to be. For a guy that can't throw deep, he needs to have stellar accuracy. Right now, I'll assume the finger had something to do with this.....but if it doesn't improve as the finger heals, I'll freak out.

He did throw deep. In fact, his deep ball looks more accurate than Cutler's did. They weren't AS deep, but he did throw some passes down the field.

I do agree that even on the shorter routes the accuracy wasn't spot on. But this was one of the things McD liked about Orton (and one of the few praises he had) was that he is an accurate passer so Im going to, at least for now, assume that the injury is throwing his accuracy off a little.

If it doesnt improve as that injury goes away, then I will reflect that change IMO but I will give him the benefit of the doubt until then.

Rock Chalk
09-13-2009, 07:43 PM
I don't know. I thought Orton looked pretty bad.

How bad would he have looked had we converted on some of those dropped 3rd down passes? Or had Marshall caught that deep ball?

The whole point of this wasn't to absolve Orton for his play, much of the criticism IS warranted. However it's not ALL on him. He had some bad plays and he had some good ones, but the same can be said of the WHOLE offense. From the O-line to the playcalling to the QB to the WRs and even the RB's not named Buckhalter.

Edit:
Marshall catches that pass, it was 45 yards. Add a couple of those 3rd down drops and all of a sudden, Orton's numbers are looking a lot better and the offense doesn't look so miserable. In fact, it looks quite respectable.

Wes Mantooth
09-13-2009, 07:45 PM
Thought the Offense, like most in the league today, played like it was the first game of the season. It will get better.

Defense on 3rd down needs to improve right now. This will be the achilles heel before Orton's play will be.

bronco militia
09-13-2009, 07:45 PM
orton looked jake plummer 2006 bad

bloodsunday
09-13-2009, 07:46 PM
We had 6 passes that were thrown over 20 yards today. Not all were caught, but Orton did throw it downfield more in one day than he did the entire pre-season.

I said a threat. Just because we attempted some down field passes does not mean that teams respect it.

The stats don't lie in this case. Subtracting the Stokely catch (for obvious reasons), Orton attempted 27 passes for 156 yards for a dismal 5.78 YPA and less than 10 YPC. It's like we are running the ball even when we are not running the ball!

Again, I am not sure what the reason is, but our passing game is anemic.

Arkie
09-13-2009, 07:48 PM
orton looked jake plummer 2006 bad

Plummer had 3 ints in his debut

Atwater His Ass
09-13-2009, 07:48 PM
Problems I saw today were lack of accuracy, arm strength and decision making.

Arm strength we all know about, the guy just physcially cannot throw with any kind of velocity, so that's not necesarrily an issue to harp on.

But lack of accuracy and poor decision making is a huge concern. The idea with Orton was that McD could fit him into his system; it didn't require the skill set that Cutler brings to the table (or so people think).

However, on many occasions, Orton had plenty of time but either a) could not deliver an accurate catchable pass, or b) couldn't find the open receiver, c) took a bad sack.

He got screwed on some drops to be sure, but from what he's shown in the pre-season and now the first regular season game, he looks just horrible.

bloodsunday
09-13-2009, 07:51 PM
Thought the Offense, like most in the league today, played like it was the first game of the season. It will get better.

I agree entirely. I think this offense will get better as it gets healthier and as key personnel get comfortable running it.

Defense on 3rd down needs to improve right now. This will be the achilles heel before Orton's play will be.

I have a tough time criticizing much the D did today. If we cant get 15 more days from them like today, we'll be in good shape. They only gave up 16 first downs and 33% completion on 3rd down. And that's with the offense gaining only 1 first down through most of the first half. Denver did not get its 2nd first down until 1:01 left in the half.

Rock Chalk
09-13-2009, 07:51 PM
I said a threat. Just because we attempted some down field passes does not mean that teams respect it.

The stats don't lie in this case. Subtracting the Stokely catch (for obvious reasons), Orton attempted 27 passes for 156 yards for a dismal 5.78 YPA and less than 10 YPC. It's like we are running the ball even when we are not running the ball!

Again, I am not sure what the reason is, but our passing game is anemic.

Yes I know that the 156 looks bad. But just give us half the dropped 3rd down passes and the Marshall easy grab deep and Denver puts up 250+ passing without the Stokely catch. That's not Cutler but that's not anemic either.

Just saying. Mistakes, not just by Orton, is what made the offense look bad in general but there were signs there. We had them beat several times.

And for the McDouche crowd, I am aware Cincy had the same issues, but since you guys are giving them the benefit of the doubt, I wanted to give the good guys the benefit of the doubt as well.

bronco militia
09-13-2009, 07:52 PM
Plummer had 3 ints in his debut

jake debuted in 2004...what's your point?

bloodsunday
09-13-2009, 07:52 PM
Plummer had 3 ints in his debut

Yeah and ironically we were lucky to beat Cincy that day as well.

Rock Chalk
09-13-2009, 07:53 PM
orton looked jake plummer 2006 bad

Dont you Mean Cutler 2009 bad?

Oh wait, Orton didnt throw any picks like Plummer and Cutler did in their debuts.

+1 Orton.

Oh, and Orton's team won :P

BroncoBuff
09-13-2009, 07:54 PM
Lots of drops, yes, but the thing is - he doesn't present any threat to the defense.

There's never a snap where you think, 'oh he's dangerous, this one could go all the way'

He seems timid to me.

bronco militia
09-13-2009, 07:55 PM
Dont you Mean Cutler 2009 bad?

Oh wait, Orton didnt throw any picks like Plummer and Cutler did in their debuts.

+1 Orton.

Oh, and Orton's team won :P

yeah...the broncos won despite the play of their QB=2006 jake plummer

bloodsunday
09-13-2009, 07:59 PM
Yes I know that the 156 looks bad. But just give us half the dropped 3rd down passes and the Marshall easy grab deep and Denver puts up 250+ passing without the Stokely catch. That's not Cutler but that's not anemic either.
The Marshall play was flat out a missed opportunity and the fault lies entirely on him. That said, many of the other "drops" were a result of throwing into traffic. CBS showed a stat that compared drops at one point, but it wasn't fair to Palmer because his WRs were dropping easy to moderate NFL catches and our guys were dropping moderate to difficult NFL catches.

Just saying. Mistakes, not just by Orton, is what made the offense look bad in general but there were signs there. We had them beat several times.
I am on record, in this thread and elsewhere, saying that I believe we'll get better as the season unfolds (a stark contrast to Shanahan coached teams). But it's still obvious that at this point our passing game is behind the curve. Even behind Cincy.

Atwater His Ass
09-13-2009, 07:59 PM
Lots of drops, yes, but the thing is - he doesn't present any threat to the defense.

There's never a snap where you think, 'oh he's dangerous, this one could go all the way'

He seems timid to me.

I don't think Orton understand the offense. Perfect example was the long pass to Scheffler. Orton gets fantastic protection, but just locks on on Scheffler for the duration. On the replay you can see Scheffler getting hung up at the line, then it took a few more seconds for him to out run the zone coverage over to the sideline. All during this time, Orton isn't looking anywhere else.

He could be a servicable QB if he can get onboard with the offense and the reads. But as it stands, he's just not there.

tsiguy96
09-13-2009, 08:00 PM
ortons throw to marshall downfield was PERFECT. on a covered guy he put it right in his hands, or through them as it were.

Wes Mantooth
09-13-2009, 08:02 PM
btw, his index finger was f'ed up guys. Give him a flippin' break.

BroncoBuff
09-13-2009, 08:03 PM
btw, his index finger was f'ed up guys. Give him a flippin' break.

Yes, but he looked exactly like he looked all preseason: timid and physically limited.

I didn't think the finger affected him ???

uplink
09-13-2009, 08:07 PM
won because Orton didn't turn the ball over.
<input id="gwProxy" type="hidden"><!--Session data--><input onclick="jsCall();" id="jsProxy" type="hidden">

Broncos4tw
09-13-2009, 08:08 PM
What a ridiculous attempt to try and make Orton seem like more than he is. I'll give it 6 weeks. Many of you will be singing a different tune.

All you have to do it WATCH HIM PLAY! Who cares about the #'s? He locks into receivers, and gets balls tipped. He cannot scramble. He apparently is unable to throw the ball away, taking sack... one of them costing us a FG. He threw a whopping one deep ball. It's as if the coach does not trust him to throw further than 8 yards. He often throws behind receivers. He has little zip on the ball.

He is an average QB, at BEST. He will often be below average. 12 points? Are you kidding me? And 6 of those were a gift.

Please just stop. Look... I will support this team as much as I can. But for cripes sake, stop trying to giftwrap a pile of dogcrap and telling me it's my birthday. He is not a good QB. I've not seen a flash of anything since he stepped in Denver.

We won.. be happy. We should have lost. How ironic that our defense wins this game for us today.

Garcia Bronco
09-13-2009, 08:10 PM
Seriously...what di you want him to do on that 3rd down play? Throw it up for grabs?..Maybe with his left hand?

Br0nc0Buster
09-13-2009, 08:10 PM
Orton didnt look bad
He isnt a great player, but he doesnt suck

Everyone on offense struggled, except Stokely at the end
To put the blame all on him is stupid

Josh had some dumb play calls to that didnt help Orton out

He has some things to work on, but he can be an effective game manager

Beantown Bronco
09-13-2009, 08:24 PM
Seriously...what di you want him to do on that 3rd down play? Throw it up for grabs?..Maybe with his left hand?

Everyone in the world saw the jailbreak coming. By definition, the QB and WRs must've seen it too. Someone should've been left uncovered and/or cut off their route and been there for the quick dump off. I, and the announcers, seemed to know what the obvious thing to do was. Worst case....throw it for the sidelines. Even if you get called for grounding, you're not going to lose any additional yardage. It's the same as the sack.

Beantown Bronco
09-13-2009, 08:25 PM
Orton didnt look bad


Probably shouldn't post before you watch the game.

Garcia Bronco
09-13-2009, 08:26 PM
Everyone in the world saw the jailbreak coming. By definition, the QB and WRs must've seen it too. Someone should've been left uncovered and/or cut off their route and been there for the quick dump off. I, and the announcers, seemed to know what the obvious thing to do was. Worst case....throw it for the sidelines. Even if you get called for grounding, you're not going to lose any additional yardage. It's the same as the sack.

That level of chemistry isn't going to be there yet. That takes more time than what they've had. The risky play would have been to throw the ball up

bronco militia
09-13-2009, 08:26 PM
Orton didnt look bad
He isnt a great player, but he doesnt suck

Everyone on offense struggled, except Stokely at the end
To put the blame all on him is stupid

Josh had some dumb play calls to that didnt help Orton out

He has some things to work on, but he can be an effective game manager

wow just wow! Ha!

Beantown Bronco
09-13-2009, 08:27 PM
ortons throw to marshall downfield was PERFECT. on a covered guy he put it right in his hands, or through them as it were.

It was actually a good 5 yards short. Marshall slowed up big time. Even the announcers commented on it.

Having said that, it obviously should've been caught.

lostknight
09-13-2009, 08:28 PM
He was staring down receivers all night, over/underthrowing, leading receivers into dbacks, or into the ground, had no chemistry with his receivers, could have easily been picked off 3 times, and we could express mail a package to Abu Dhabi faster then his long ball would take to reach a down field target.

Outside of that he did fine.

Br0nc0Buster
09-13-2009, 08:28 PM
Probably shouldn't post before you watch the game.

give me a break
everyone sucked today, it seems people want him to be Cutler out there

He had solid numbers, missed some throws, but had some drops as well

on top of that he is playing with a messed up finger

Atwater His Ass
09-13-2009, 08:28 PM
Then Orton needs to have the individual awareness to either throw it away, or stick his nose up the middle for minimal yardage and/or a minimal yards lost on the sack.

Beantown Bronco
09-13-2009, 08:29 PM
That level of chemistry isn't going to be there yet. That takes more time than what they've had. The risky play would have been to throw the ball up

These are NFL players. They don't need chemistry to break off a route when they see a jailbreak blitz. And they certainly don't need chemistry to throw the ball out of bounds.

Steve Sewell
09-13-2009, 08:29 PM
My criticism is that Orton needs to get the ball out earlier. There were several sacks in the game at fairly critical moments because he didn't make his read early enough. The one that sticks out the most was on the drive where we could have put it away with a FG.

I think once BMarsh gets on the same page, and Knowshon gets full speed, the offense will improve dramatically. Overall, I loved the way the staff managed the game in all facets.

Atwater His Ass
09-13-2009, 08:29 PM
Orton didnt look bad
He isnt a great player, but he doesnt suck

Everyone on offense struggled, except Stokely at the end
To put the blame all on him is stupid

Josh had some dumb play calls to that didnt help Orton out

He has some things to work on, but he can be an effective game manager

Orton was horrible today bro.

I hope he improves as much as the next guy, but he was horrible today.

Houshyamama
09-13-2009, 08:31 PM
I thought he looked pretty bad but you could tell his throwing was affected by the glove as evidenced by some of his more 'lame-duck' looking spirals. I'll reserve judgement till he's healthy.

Beantown Bronco
09-13-2009, 08:32 PM
First you say

Orton didnt look bad
He isnt a great player, but he doesnt suck

then you say

everyone sucked today

odd

Mr. Elway
09-13-2009, 08:36 PM
I dont think the last one was avoidable.

Pressure from all sides, the pocket almost immediately collapsed and he had no where to escape to. HIs ONLY option was to throw it up and we saw what happens with that.

It, IMO, was a bad play call. They went empty backfield and everyone and their mother saw a jail break blitz coming.

I thought he had a second to dump it off but you are right, it happened extremely quickly and I'm not going to argue the point. Hamilton's penalty the play prior is also what put us in that situation.

As someone else just pointed out, Orton could easily have lost this game for us and he didn't.

lex
09-13-2009, 08:36 PM
Yes, Orton was that bad. For a guy who's not a "put the team on his back, stathorse" guy, he needs to manage situations better. The sack at the end of the game was incredibly poor.

Br0nc0Buster
09-13-2009, 08:37 PM
First you say



then you say



odd

Im saying you have to put his performance in perspective
No one was helping him out really except for Stokely at the end
I never said he played well, but he isnt a guy that can lead a team

He cant overcome when other guys have bad games

First game in a new system with new players and he has a messed up finger
I am gonna give the guy a few weeks to settle in before I throw him away for the season

He didnt play that bad for what I was expecting, but he can play better and I excpet him to progress as the season continues

I was more concerned with the playcalling that with Kyle

Atwater His Ass
09-13-2009, 08:38 PM
I thought he had a second to dump it off but you are right, it happened extremely quickly and I'm not going to argue the point. Hamilton's penalty the play prior is also what put us in that situation.

As someone else just pointed out, Orton could easily have lost this game for us and he didn't.

He certainly didn't do much to help us win it either. Which is a bigger problem.

Br0nc0Buster
09-13-2009, 08:41 PM
Orton was horrible today bro.

I hope he improves as much as the next guy, but he was horrible today.

I think people are expecting too much from him
He is a system guy
He cant lead a team by himself

He isnt that guy that can drive down the field and put up TDs when his receivers are dropping passes

I thought he did OK, not great but not terrible
He can do better, and I think he will

Steve Sewell
09-13-2009, 08:43 PM
What a ridiculous attempt to try and make Orton seem like more than he is. I'll give it 6 weeks. Many of you will be singing a different tune.

All you have to do it WATCH HIM PLAY! Who cares about the #'s? He locks into receivers, and gets balls tipped. He cannot scramble. He apparently is unable to throw the ball away, taking sack... one of them costing us a FG. He threw a whopping one deep ball. It's as if the coach does not trust him to throw further than 8 yards. He often throws behind receivers. He has little zip on the ball.

He is an average QB, at BEST. He will often be below average. 12 points? Are you kidding me? And 6 of those were a gift.

Please just stop. Look... I will support this team as much as I can. But for cripes sake, stop trying to giftwrap a pile of dogcrap and telling me it's my birthday. He is not a good QB. I've not seen a flash of anything since he stepped in Denver.

We won.. be happy. We should have lost. How ironic that our defense wins this game for us today.

Orton is now 22-12 as an NFL starter. Cry more.

Atwater His Ass
09-13-2009, 08:44 PM
Yeah, cause QB W-L's is a completely relevant stat and a direct relationship to how a QB plays in a game.

misturanderson
09-13-2009, 09:00 PM
It's too bad our QB was only able to put up these numbers: 17-28 243yds 1 TD 0 Int and A WIN. I really wish my QB had this stat line: 17-36 277yds, 1 TD 4 Int oh and 1 LOSS.

bombquixote
09-13-2009, 09:14 PM
Judging by today alone, Orton is marginal as backup QBs go. I hope he improves. Otherwise we're going to lose a lot of games this season.

strafen
09-13-2009, 09:15 PM
I don't know. I thought Orton looked pretty bad.

The guy stinks, man. He's a stiff!

Rock Chalk
09-13-2009, 09:21 PM
Everyone in the world saw the jailbreak coming. By definition, the QB and WRs must've seen it too. Someone should've been left uncovered and/or cut off their route and been there for the quick dump off. I, and the announcers, seemed to know what the obvious thing to do was. Worst case....throw it for the sidelines. Even if you get called for grounding, you're not going to lose any additional yardage. It's the same as the sack.

If its the same as a sack, then what difference does it make Beantown?

OABB
09-13-2009, 09:26 PM
It's too bad our QB was only able to put up these numbers: 17-28 243yds 1 TD 0 Int and A WIN. I really wish my QB had this stat line: 17-36 277yds, 1 TD 4 Int oh and 1 LOSS.

me too. His spiral looks better and he has a stronger arm.

footstepsfrom#27
09-13-2009, 09:41 PM
I'm not bothering to read all this. I know what I saw, and yes, he was that bad, not because of his statistics, but because of what he does and doesnt' do. He doesn't handle awareness in the pocket well in terms of feeling the rush. He doesn't seem to find open receivers downfield when he has a guy 5 yards in front of him. He seems to be afraid to go downfield, which tell me he doesnt' have much confidence in his arm. He is obviously not very mobile, which only increases the pass rush since defenses know he can't really escape.

Add it all up and what you have is a guy who has to be functioning in a system that is working on all 8 cylinders in order to be reasonably effective. My hope is that he gets better as the rest of the offenes gets in sync, but let's not kid ourselves; he has limited physical talent. Perhaps as Marshall improves and Moreno starts to become a threat our passing game will be enough to move the ball with some degree of consistency but I don't see it happening apart from that at all.

Mr. Elway
09-13-2009, 09:44 PM
He certainly didn't do much to help us win it either. Which is a bigger problem.

Indeed. I guess my position is that despite a lot of adversity he did not throw the game away, and there were many other problems on offense.

I want to see how he does with the running game clicking and his finger healed, and hopefully it's better than he did today.

Steve Sewell
09-13-2009, 09:44 PM
Yeah, cause QB W-L's is a completely relevant stat and a direct relationship to how a QB plays in a game.

Totally agreed.

Oh, wait, were you being sarcastic?

Also, my condolences on Cutler tonight. You must be feeling particularly sensitive so I forgive you for any nastiness on the boards.

DarkHorse30
09-13-2009, 09:48 PM
What a ridiculous attempt to try and make Orton seem like more than he is.

Uh...he's average. That's why TWO first round picks to replace the all-world
QB (who will not be named):D

He is an average QB, at BEST.
see above....we agree, in fact most on this board don't think Orton is currently anything more than average...although he tends to win more games than he loses....unlike the unnamed one
He is not a good QB. I've not seen a flash of anything since he stepped in Denver.
Clarify please. Does "not good" mean average? If he threw 4 picks to go with his one td, would he elevate to the unnamed one's status?
We should have lost. How ironic that our defense wins this game for us today.

Wow, we have a defense? Nice. And a very average QB that doesn't give wins away.....I wonder how many wins that will equal.

Broncos4tw
09-14-2009, 05:37 AM
For all intents and purposes, we did lose that game. We got the W, but make no mistake, it was a done-deal. Game was over. Only an ironically bad pass by Orton, and Stokley being in the right place at the right time yielded the win. Don't get me wrong, I'm thrilled we won. But I am not mistaking a W with our QBs performance.

I will give him a plus: He did not throw any ints. That was good. That was in fact, the only good thing I saw today. He had one adequate drive.

He DID have one decent long throw. A bit underthrown, but Marshall should have caught it. But he is so lacking in fundamentals, you have to wonder if he'll ever be more than he is.

This was the BENGALS. We were down 7-6 before the miracle play. 6 points against the Bengals? The decent teams are going to rip us apart if we play like this again.

WolfpackGuy
09-14-2009, 05:49 AM
Wasn't that bad?
Aside from the fluke game winner, he produced 2 FG's in 59:30.
Get used to the term "3 and out" when Denver has the ball.
We're going to hear it a lot with Orton.

TonyR
09-14-2009, 06:06 AM
...it seems people want him to be Cutler out there...

I hope not. We certainly don't need our QB throwing 4 INT's...

TonyR
09-14-2009, 06:08 AM
If its the same as a sack, then what difference does it make Beantown?

Exactly right. I'm not defending the play but a sack is the safer play. When you take bad risks you end up with a Jay Cutler stat line...

v2micca
09-14-2009, 06:08 AM
[QUOTE=Broncos4tw;2555538]

He DID have one decent long throw. A bit underthrown, but Marshall should have caught it. But he is so lacking in fundamentals, you have to wonder if he'll ever be more than he is.

QUOTE]

I was frustrated at Marshall for this play. Like you said, it was underthrown, forcing him to adjust his route and shift against his momentum for the catch. But a top reciever makes that catch and Brandon wants to be paid like a top reciever. I'm going to chalk it up to him being out of Game shape for now.

Beantown Bronco
09-14-2009, 06:12 AM
If its the same as a sack, then what difference does it make Beantown?

I'm not saying it's the same as a sack. I'm saying the worst case scenario is that they call it grounding and results in the same thing as a sack. But there is also the possibility that it's not called grounding and you don't lose any yards. A sack gives up that possibility.

Exactly right. I'm not defending the play but a sack is the safer play. When you take bad risks you end up with a Jay Cutler stat line...

Is a sack safer than throwing it up for grabs in the middle of the field? Sure.
Is a sack safer than throwing it out of bounds? Nope. Not even close.

Cito Pelon
09-14-2009, 06:26 AM
Orton needs to improve quite a bit to go 8-8 or better. He had some decent moments, but he needs about 20% more decent moments. He had about 4-6 bad passes/decisions yesterday that have to become good passes/decisions.

I'm thinking I wouldn't mind at all to see more of Simms or Brand.

loborugger
09-14-2009, 07:06 AM
btw, his index finger was f'ed up guys. Give him a flippin' break.

I am gonna reserve judgement on Orton for 2 reasons. First, his finger. Secondly, it was the first game. At that point, he should be able to stretch the field more and not look like such a stiff. If he doesnt improve fairly quickly, then he isnt anything worse than what we thought we were getting.

Cito Pelon
09-14-2009, 07:11 AM
We had 6 passes that were thrown over 20 yards today. Not all were caught, but Orton did throw it downfield more in one day than he did the entire pre-season.

IDK if it's Ort or the playcalling, but it seems like 90% of the 3rd down pass plays are going just barely far enough to move the sticks. Too conservative.

Orton hasn't a single time gone deep down the sideline to this point that I recall, and only one post pattern - the one Marshall missed.

This is gonna have to change for the O to be successful to the tune of 21+ per game and an 8-8 or better record.

I don't want to be overly-critical. That was a nice throw on the post. Excellent velocity, he should have thrown it a heartbeat earlier, but if he can do that twice a game, that will help a lot.

And yes, there were some crucial, crucial drops on nice reads and passes.

Peoples Champ
09-14-2009, 07:23 AM
your right, there were a lot of dropped balls, I still think we should have rested his finger, brandstater could have put that same performance up.

Popcorn Sutton
09-14-2009, 07:25 AM
Judging by today alone, Orton is marginal as backup QBs go. I hope he improves. Otherwise we're going to lose a lot of games this season.

Damn, then judging by today alone the Bears are in for a LONG season.

Broncos4tw
09-14-2009, 07:30 AM
One thing I am wondering is if our playbook was limited due to a new team, still learning the "system" and all that, or is it limited by Orton's abilities? We didn't call a lot of 12 to 15 yard passes, nor sideline throws.

But seeing Orton's balls go to the sidelines with almost no zip, giving the defender plenty of time to get to it, I'm wondering if we are doing all we can, with what we have.

Jason in LA
09-14-2009, 07:37 AM
He didn't turn the ball over, and that's about the best that I can say about the guy. Not turning the ball over is a huge thing, but if that's all a QB can do, then he's not very good.

He finished with a rating of 100. But take away that one play and his rating is a 72. There is nothing good about that.

TheDave
09-14-2009, 07:39 AM
Orton was BAD... then again so was the entire offense with the exception of our pass blocking.

DarkHorse
09-14-2009, 07:47 AM
I can't remember 1 time that he didn't pick a receiver in the huddle, lock on and throw to him no matter what.

Does the dude go thru progressions at all?

gyldenlove
09-14-2009, 07:56 AM
2nd and 9, deep pass to Marshall who lets it go right through his hands.
3rd and 9, Bubble screen to Gaffney for 3 yards, tipped at the line.
(Obviously, this drive is on Marshall, its a 3 and out because Marshall drops a catch right between his mittens. The playcalling on 3rd and 9 was also atrocious because even had the ball not been tipped (it was still completed) Dhani Jones was right on Gaffney anyway).

Fiftyh Drive:

3rd and 2 Orton to Royal incomplete, dropped pass by Royal but probably an ill advised throw as Royal got hammered on this play.

Sixth drive.
2nd and 3, Orton to Buckhalter for 7 yards.
2nd and 3 again, Orton incomplete to Gaffney (Dropped ball)
3rd and 3, Orton to Royal for 11 yards.
1st and 10, Orton deep to Gaffney for 21 yards. This was the replay where Gaffney bobbled but still managed to maintain control before going out.
1st and 10, Orton incomplete to Sheff, another dropped ball. Sheff got hit but he is a TE and is supposed to take that hit and hold on to the ball.
End of Half (we were short on time on this drive if you recall and we ran the ball a lot and did not use timeouts until the end.)

Seventh Drive:
This drive starts off with a negative run and then a penalty leaving us at 2nd and 19. We run, the on 3rd and 134 Orton passes short left to Marshall for 6 and he had Stokely open on the other side. I dont think he had much time on this play but he has to see that open receiver.

8th Drive:
2nd and 8, Orton to Graham for 10.
1st and 10, Orton to Marshall for 4.
2nd and 6, incomplete but penalty on Cincy, no play. Geathers was WAY off side on this play.
2nd and 1, Buckhalter loses a yard setting up...
3rd and 2. Orton incomplete to Peyton. Not the greatest throw but Peyton SHOULD have caught this ball. Another drop.

9th Drive:
1st and 10, Orton to Sheff for 29 yards.
2nd and 8 Orton scrambles because of pressure, gets 3 yards.
3rd and 5: Orton incomplete to Stokes on the dropped ball. This is Stokes drop, the earlier one he was interfered with badly.

10th Drive:
1st and 10, Orton to Hillis for 6.
2nd and 4, Orton incomplete to Royal, this is the play Royal got injured on.
3rd and 4, Orton to B Marsh for 9 yards.
2nd and 9, Orton to Graham for 8 yards, penalty on Denver for phantom Holding.
2nd and 19: Orton to Graham for 10.
3rd and 9: Orton to Graham for 20.
3rd and 10 (after two runs and a penalty), Orton to Buckhalter for 4*
*Penalty on play resulted in a pass play of 4 yards, penalty enforced at Denver 25 backing them up to 35. Net result was first down, penalty negated it bringing us to...
3rd and 16. Orton Sacked. Now, this was the worst thing that could happen but because of the way the pressure came, from the outside first and then up the middle, Orton had no where to escape out of the tackle box. His options were to take a sack (bad) or throw it up for grabs (which we all know would have ended badly). This is actually on McD here. We were in long FG range, the play call should have been a run that kept us at the minimum in field goal range. 3rd and 16's aren't converted often, the safe play was the run play here.


I highlighted some really bad decisions and executions from Orton.

1st play, pass is underthrown by a good 5 yards causing Marshall to have to stop and turn, if the pass hits him in stride he makes that catch.

2nd pass lead Royal right into an oncoming linebacker (Rivers), if Orton puts that ball right on Royal who is stationary or finds a more open target Royal won't get injured. Poor decision and poor throw.

Taking the sack on 3rd down is unforgivable, huge mental mistake.

Orton had a medium out to Gaffney where the ball is thrown late and low and is very near a pick, as well as leading Marshall into Maualuga.

A lot of his short passes came too late which gives the defense time to adjust and he definitely lacked power and accuracy, although that is probably a lot due to the injured finger and the support brace and glove. He had a short pass to Marshall in double coverage where Stokley is wide open 10 yards futher down, it looked like a really bad Cutler replay where he was locked on Marshall and forced the ball.

TheDave
09-14-2009, 08:00 AM
Is anyone else a little worried that Orton is going to get Royal killed?

BroncoBuff
09-14-2009, 08:05 AM
10th Drive:
1st and 10, Orton to Hillis for 6.
2nd and 4, Orton incomplete to Royal, this is the play Royal got injured on.
3rd and 4, Orton to B Marsh for 9 yards.
2nd and 9, Orton to Graham for 8 yards, penalty on Denver for phantom Holding.
2nd and 19: Orton to Graham for 10.
3rd and 9: Orton to Graham for 20.
3rd and 10 (after two runs and a penalty), Orton to Buckhalter for 4*

Homer take I know, but why didn't we go to Graham more than just this brief flurry?

Safe target, no "zip on the ball" required, and they couldn't cover him.

TheReverend
09-14-2009, 08:05 AM
Is anyone else a little worried that Orton is going to get Royal killed?

His wittle body type is prone to getting killed out there anyways. Let's just hope for the best.

Dr. Broncenstein
09-14-2009, 08:07 AM
Is anyone else a little worried that Orton is going to get Royal killed?

He certainly isn't built to work the middle of the field. Royal gets excellent separation on the deep outs because of his quickness... but you have to be able to get the ball there on time. Orton isn't throwing deep, and he certainly can't throw the out. Royal has to work the midde of the field or the bubble screen game... and either way he can't sustain that type of punishment.

Tombstone RJ
09-14-2009, 08:08 AM
The Broncos won with great defense, period. The offense and Orton in particular was frustrating to watch. Sure, WRs have to catch the damn ball but Orton is just not in sync. with his WRs.

Hopefully the running game gets a lot better. Moreno got his bell rung and he's paying the price for holding out (he absolutely got lit up on one run play to the outside).

Orton hold on to the ball for way too long. It's like he can't make a freaking decision. I can't stand the fact that he's pretending to be Peyton Manning before the snap (a bunch of pre-snap barking and pointing) but he once the ball is finally snapped he accomplishes very little.

Dude, just throw the ball or run for the first down. Do something.

He needs to get better and hopefully he will. But I have a hard time understanding what McD sees in Orton. The Broncos won and this cures a lot of the bad things I witnessed yesterday but HAD the Broncos not won the game... yah, everyone here would be calling for Orton's head on a stick, and rightly so.

BroncoBuff
09-14-2009, 08:10 AM
He didn't turn the ball over, and that's about the best that I can say about the guy. Not turning the ball over is a huge thing, but if that's all a QB can do, then he's not very good.

He finished with a rating of 100. But take away that one play and his rating is a 72. There is nothing good about that.

A big problem to me is, he just doesn't present any threat, the defense has nothing to worry about, he's not scary to a defense. Most good quarterbacks have at least one thing in their arsenal that scares a defense, I don't think Kyle has that.

Rohirrim
09-14-2009, 08:13 AM
I think the finger figures into Orton's performance. I've seen him much more accurate than he was yesterday.

Wes Mantooth
09-14-2009, 08:16 AM
I think the finger figures into Orton's performance. I've seen him much more accurate than he was yesterday.

agreed. Also, this was week 1. Most offenses looked subpar.

Mountain Bronco
09-14-2009, 08:23 AM
I think it is rust issue with recievers. He hasn't thrown to Marshal, really ever, and hasn't gotten that many reps over the last several weeks. Also, I think the play calling needs to be more balanced. We ran the ball the first drive well, then abandoned the run and then ran the ball well again later. We need to mix it up more in each drive.

Also, I think Moreno did a good job despite his average. He was in there when we were backed up and it is tough to gain yardage in those situations, plus, there were several times where he should have been stoped for a big loss, but got out with a short gain.

The offense will get better and the D should as well. Despite the near shutout, the bungles put up some serious yardage. 4 straight 3 and outs by the offense doesn't help though. Time of possession nearly killed us.

lex
09-14-2009, 08:28 AM
Yes, he was that bad.

TailgateNut
09-14-2009, 08:45 AM
Is anyone else a little worried that Orton is going to get Royal killed?


Is Orton scripting the plays?

Didn't think so.

Dr. Broncenstein
09-14-2009, 09:06 AM
Is Orton scripting the plays?

Didn't think so.

He certainly is dictating the types of routes that can't be executed. Working the sidlines from the pocket is out.

Cito Pelon
09-14-2009, 09:38 AM
It's possible Orton can get the O moving more crisply, get the YPC up some, start converting some 3rd downs. He had his moments.

But in general he's not recognizing, reading, delivering crisply from what I've seen. His mechanics are off, he's not getting his feet set well, he looks uncomfortable. His medium-to-long throws are late most of the time because he's hesitant, and his footwork tells that.

I hope he can do better than what I saw Sunday, because that's not gonna get the team to 8-8. I don't think it's fair to bag on the guy totally because he made some nice throws at times. But he's gonna have to step it up some.

TheDave
09-14-2009, 09:45 AM
Is Orton scripting the plays?

Didn't think so.

WOW... If you really think the hits eddie took yesterday are ONLY because of the "script", you don't have any idea what you are watching.

Look TGN, i get that you're mad 'cause I was "negative" this offseason, but don't make yourself look stupid just to try and take a crack at me.

gyldenlove
09-14-2009, 09:50 AM
It's possible Orton can get the O moving more crisply, get the YPC up some, start converting some 3rd downs. He had his moments.

But in general he's not recognizing, reading, delivering crisply from what I've seen. His mechanics are off, he's not getting his feet set well, he looks uncomfortable. His medium-to-long throws are late most of the time because he's hesitant, and his footwork tells that.

I hope he can do better than what I saw Sunday, because that's not gonna get the team to 8-8. I don't think it's fair to bag on the guy totally because he made some nice throws at times. But he's gonna have to step it up some.

I know, it is the hesitation and the poor decisions that worry me because that has nothing to do with his hand. His passes will get sharper and his spiral will be tighter, but if he continues being slow to deliver the ball and leading recievers into defenders this could get ugly.

I want to see him get a little more comfortable with his targets before I write him off, but his time to throw has to come down, he is holding the ball way too long and when people figure that out it will hurt us.

kamakazi_kal
09-14-2009, 10:00 AM
Our Defense played really well ...... I didn't see anything out of Orton that I didn't see in the preseason, still unimpressed with the guy. That was a rough offensive show versus an OK Bengals D .... It's gonna get harder really quick but, I'll take the win.

bombquixote
09-14-2009, 10:00 AM
He didn't turn the ball over, and that's about the best that I can say about the guy. Not turning the ball over is a huge thing, but if that's all a QB can do, then he's not very good.

He finished with a rating of 100. But take away that one play and his rating is a 72. There is nothing good about that.

Yep. With Orton at the helm, this offense is a 3-and-out machine. Let me sum it up like this: I sure hope the defense can keep us in the game against Cleveland.

ludo21
09-14-2009, 10:04 AM
Orton is just not good, why is this still a debate?

lazarus4444
09-14-2009, 10:52 AM
Well this week he was better than cutler. We'll see what happens next week. I got a feeling he'll improve and if he doesn't lets give simms a shot.