Too Rude or Too Polite?

[Bob]

I have mixed feelings on this point, and how one R Senate member acted out, and apologized. In England, they heckle the hell out of each other – but we are Americans, and we should respect the office, even if one does not respect the man. The argument can be made – that when you have the microphone, then you speak – shut up until then.

But the flip side is when much of the media will not question this president – and confront him, when he does lie, then how else will folks get the information? If one really believes our nation is at stake … that creates some passion. Obama (and much of Congress) in my opinion is attempting to redefine the meaning of the Constitution and our entire system of government – so last night (heaven forbid) if I was a member of the Senate I would have stood up and inappropriately verbally confronted him. I think that would have been "wrong" and the wrong way to fight enslavement -- but as the stakes are enslavement, it becomes more difficult to be "polite." If we were not up to our eye balls in debt, and still piling on debt to create an even bigger crisis that will hurt those with disabilities and the elderly the most....I would let it slide.
There were so many lies in his speech -- that anyone who has the intellectual curiosity to dig a tad deeper can find out -- but as "mainstream news" does not want to do their job any longer -- Americans need to check into what Obama has said (in the not so distant past) about the one payer system -- which he wants, and has stated that he wants.

The only thing bigger then our national deficit, is our trust deficit. Why in the hell are we even entertaining the notion of giving dishonest people 50% more power or 75% more power of another sector of the economy? I am no longer asking those dangerous, short-sighted questions -- no party R or D deserve one drop of more power -- which is what this and other recent legislation has been about. Do you trust them? What do you think they will give you? I am assuming you want universal healthcare? But what is the cost? The Congressional budget office (which always low balls these numbers has estimated it will cost more than 1 trillion dollars -- so where does that money come from? The US Postal Service is in debt -- and needs billions, Amtrack is in debt and needs billions, Medicare is in massive debt (50 trillion in promised benefits) and now, they want more power? Why? It is because of the power stupid. They don’t care if it provides better care (and it wont.) A good argument can be made that those in power most of the "left" and "right" would like to see the financial system implode -- if the end game is power, then that "opportunity" will not be wasted.

When it does happen – some will blame the right. Some on here will blame the left. Six months after that game has played out and our dollar has lost 50% of its value maybe a few more will wake up and realize that it doesn’t matter what party you belong to, they don’t care about you, and your trust was misplaced. We are all on the Titanic.

[Smiling Assassin27]

Ask Tom Tancredo.

[Bronx33]

it's bushes fault.

[Bob]

it's bushes fault.

That's what I have heard -- I cant dismiss all of their narrowly considered -arguments though -- Bush did double the national debt, he did give us Medicare part D, he did not really fight to close the border, he did give us the Patriot Act with no sunset clause, and he give us the first bailout (which was also written by the Orion group) who were instrumental in writing the first of the great commie healthcare plans coming our way. I guess we should give the Dems some slack as they continue the same moronic things supposedly conservatives did to take away freedom.

Now, the sooner real Dems and real conservatives choose principle and the Constitution over party games, the more likely we can save the Republic.

[footstepsfrom#27]

There were so many lies in his speech -- that anyone who has the intellectual curiosity to dig a tad deeper can find out -
That sounds fair enough.

I didn't listen to the speech so I'll have to get a text of this, and in the meantime, I'll ask you to state what they were, then supply documentation that proves your point...I said PROVES your point. Don't give me what Beck/Rush/Hannity/Palin/Savage said or Fox News or Republican Senator Smith or Jones. I want documented proof of the lies. If you do have actual proof, it means your yourself have researched this out and you're ready to show me what you got.

So far in virtually every situation I've heard this...it's somebody saying "read the bill"...always somebody who hasn't read the bill themselves.

I like facts...show me some.

On the curtosy thing...let's just abandon all pretense here OK? If the Brits do it so should we. Why not? We've sacrificed virtually every other element of civility in this society in the last few years. And since by this time next week we'll probably have tanks rolling through our streets and gulags set up...let's just have an armed revolution while we're at it. We can fight each other in the streets. It's clear that's what many really hope for.

[Bronx33]

That's what I have heard -- I cant dismiss all of their narrowly considered -arguments though -- Bush did double the national debt, he did give us Medicare part D, he did not really fight to close the border, he did give us the Patriot with no sunset clause, and he give us the first bailout (which was also written by the Orion group) who were instrumental in writing the first of the great commie healthcare plans coming our way. I guess we should give the Dems some slack as they do the same moronic things to take away freedom.

Now, the sooner real Dems and real conservatives choose principle and the Constitution over party games, the more likely we can save the Republic.


I agree sadly obama is thinking party only.

[Bob]

That sounds fair enough.

I didn't listen to the speech so I'll have to get a text of this, and in the meantime, I'll ask you to state what they were, then supply documentation that proves your point...I said PROVES your point. Don't give me what Beck/Rush/Hannity/Palin/Savage said or Fox News or Republican Senator Smith or Jones. I want documented proof of the lies. If you do have actual proof, it means your yourself have researched this out and you're ready to show me what you got.

So far in virtually every situation I've heard this...it's somebody saying "read the bill"...always somebody who hasn't read the bill themselves.

I like facts...show me some.

On the curtosy thing...let's just abandon all pretense here OK? If the Brits do it so should we. Why not? We've sacrificed virtually every other element of civility in this society in the last few years. And since by this time next week we'll probably have tanks rolling through our streets and gulags set up...let's just have an armed revolution while we're at it. We can fight each other in the streets. It's clear that's what many really hope for.

Only the evil want a revolution involving blood -- but I bet the 1% that want that, are active thinking of ways to stir the pot. You asked a very fair question. However, at work I cant access You Tube, where I saw the clips of Obama speaking on the one payor system, and how he wanted it. I bet it woudl not be hard to find -- maybe someone can create a link? I also saw it on Fox -- you dont think they got an actor to do?

Obama spoke to a group of AFO Union members (while running for office) and stated and this is almost an exact quote "I happen to be a proponant of the single payor healthcare system."

Also in an interview (2006?) he stated very clearly that (again going on my memory) that it woudl nessasriliy take 10 - 15 years to eliminate private healthacre in America while transitioning to universal healthcare system.

Are folks allowed to change their minds? Sure. But it is fair to ask how honest their conversion is, when now that there is a spot light on them, and back then they were in a position to be more honest. Most American like the healthcare they have -- I belive as Obama belives that by setting up a government option (run by the exective branch?) that many small businesses will drop this "expense" right away -- which will force most other businesses to do the same. I think that rights and choice are rarely simply taken, but are nudged (I woudl say we are shoved) toward actions Big Brother wants. Personally I dont think it is their business -- and the more I let them do for me, the more it will feel like it can tell me what to do, that it becomes their right to tell me what to eat & how to live (if they are picking up the tab.)

So, when Obama says we can keep our private coverage -- that is not his intention, not will it be true long term -- so that is one "lie."

Again if someone can make a link to Obama's own words it would be appreicated.

[Bronx33]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDAPLb-HVcM

[epicSocialism4tw]

Obama has made a habit of lying, and I have lost respect for him as a result.

However, he is the holder of the Presidency. Its shameful to see the President embarrassed publicly like that. Wilson was right to apologize.

[JPEZ]

Obama has made a habit of lying, and I have lost respect for him as a result.

However, he is the holder of the Presidency. Its shameful to see the President embarrassed publicly like that. Wilson was right to apologize.

well said.. bub

[footstepsfrom#27]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDAPLb-HVcM
Thanks for posting this. It's the perfect example of what pisses me off about this whole smear campaign. Let's look at what this video actually says:

It opens with a single sentence, totally divorced from any context, in which Obama, speaking in a debate with Hillary Clinton, states; "I never said that we should go ahead and get single payer." This is followed by a clip 5 years later, in which he states, "I happen to be a proponent of single payer health care".

Is this a lie, or is it an exaple of a Hillary Clinton political trick? Why is there absolutely NO context provided in the 2003 clip? When he states in the national debate with her, "I never said....", was he referring to "never" as in "never in my life", or was he using "never" in the context of the presidential debate, five years after he was an Illinois legislature?

Do I need to explain this...honestly? If you don't see the veracity of this question you're simply unwilling to do so. If two people have a heated discussion and one says, "I never said xyz"...do you think he's referring to something he thought FIVE YEARS ago?

This is not proof of a lie. It's proof that we have a political sound bite from Hillary during the 08 campign...one where the context was entirely removed. Obama tried to make the same point in the video. I think it's entirely believable...in fact it's hard to believe anyting else...that he doesn't hold exactly the same positions in 2003 as he does in 2008. Most people in here don't either.

[ghwk]

I'm, going to ignore 90% of the **** you posted Bob and just say that for both parties that is not the place to boo or yell you lie.

Is that bipartisan enough for you or will you defend that jackass for loosing his tongue?

[Rohirrim]

I'm convinced that the Wilson shout-out was an act and totally pre-arranged. Look at the picture when he shouts out. None of the repugs around him are even registering mild surprise. They were all in on it. What is the Right known for since the days of Lee Atwater, and even more finely tuned, through the days of Karl Rove? Dominating the news cycle. Is the MSM talking about Obama's speech? No. They're talking about Joe Wilson, the ahole. Just another minor Swift Boat op from the "No Values Party."

[cutthemdown]

I'm convinced that the Wilson shout-out was an act and totally pre-arranged. Look at the picture when he shouts out. None of the repugs around him are even registering mild surprise. They were all in on it. What is the Right known for since the days of Lee Atwater, and even more finely tuned, through the days of Karl Rove? Dominating the news cycle. Is the MSM talking about Obama's speech? No. They're talking about Joe Wilson, the ahole. Just another minor Swift Boat op from the "No Values Party."

How do repubs gain by making themselves look bad, and making people rally behind the President?

Sorry I can't see this as a plan, unless the Palin thing was to. If the plan is to destroy the party so that Dems firmly in control then it's working. If that is the plan I shudder to think what they know we don't.

[Bob]

How do repubs gain by making themselves look bad, and making people rally behind the President?

Sorry I can't see this as a plan, unless the Palin thing was to. If the plan is to destroy the party so that Dems firmly in control then it's working. If that is the plan I shudder to think what they know we don't.

Yup, nothing to gain...

[Rohirrim]

They take the focus off the president's speech and his effort to create health care reform and it stamps the message that he's lying.

[Garcia Bronco]

Even if it was true it was still rude to do so while the President was speaking.

[rastaman]

I agree sadly obama is thinking party only.

I believe what is really missing when it comes to the trust, transparency, and integrity from the WH and the Congress and American politics is the influence, corruption, and greed of BIG MONEY!

Money has tainted our Democracy, Politics, and our Republic!

When you meld together Coporate and Congressional, and Executive Branch alliances and allow these entities to grow powerful and influential, the Will of the People are ignored and taken for granted.

In the United States today the Government no longer fears its people. The people now fear the Government.

[epicSocialism4tw]

I'm convinced that the Wilson shout-out was an act and totally pre-arranged. Look at the picture when he shouts out. None of the repugs around him are even registering mild surprise. They were all in on it. What is the Right known for since the days of Lee Atwater, and even more finely tuned, through the days of Karl Rove? Dominating the news cycle. Is the MSM talking about Obama's speech? No. They're talking about Joe Wilson, the ahole. Just another minor Swift Boat op from the "No Values Party."

Do you have your tinfoil hat on today? I think that the evil republicans are controlling your brainwaves.

[rastaman]

Do you have your tinfoil hat on today? I think that the evil republicans are controlling your brainwaves.

Republicans had better straighten up and return to some form of civility! I know I'm asking for alot, however, the circular firing squad the shrinking GOP has been exhibiting is making them the laughing stock of the country and the world.

Remember, it was 8 years of Republican lack of leadership, incompetencies, greed and corruption that almost took America into another Republican caused Great Depression.

Right now the GOP is seen as the party of "NO", Obstructionism, the party who wishes the President fails, and a party that allows fringe extremist in their party to make 30 death threats a day against the President. And the various groups w/i GOP Republican voters are showing their long held racist beliefs are broiling to the surface as well.

America will not be in any great hurry to elect Republicans to mis-lead the country economically, financially, internationally, and domestically anytime soon.

[Broncojef]

I'm convinced that the Wilson shout-out was an act and totally pre-arranged. Look at the picture when he shouts out. None of the repugs around him are even registering mild surprise. They were all in on it. What is the Right known for since the days of Lee Atwater, and even more finely tuned, through the days of Karl Rove? Dominating the news cycle. Is the MSM talking about Obama's speech? No. They're talking about Joe Wilson, the ahole. Just another minor Swift Boat op from the "No Values Party."

You are as clueless as they come...google Democrats calling Bush a liar for 8 years over reaction to wars. How can you condemn one man speaking his mind when it was done at nauseum under Bush? I guess because the left wing media won't hand you the truth or have the balls to report anything even the slightest bit right leaning it never happened.

http://rawstory.com/news/2007/Congress_members_agree_No_calling_Bush_0716.html

Now, back on December 5th of 2004, on Meet the Press, during an interview, Harry Reid called George Bush a liar and then stood by the comment. Tim Russert: "When the president talked about Yucca Mountain and moving the nation's nuclear waste there you were very, very, very strong in your words, you said President Bush is a liar, he betrayed Nevada, he betrayed the country. Is that rhetoric appropriate?" Senator Reid: Well, I don't know if that rhetoric's appropriate. That's how I feel and that's how I felt." From Tim Green, the 2005 Rolling Stone magazine sit-down interview, Rolling Stone: "You've called Bush a loser." He did that to a bunch of school kids if you'll recall out in Nevada. Harry Reid says, "Yeah, I called him a loser and a liar." "And you apologized for the loser comment." Harry Reid: "But I never have for the liar comment, have I?"

And of course let's not forget the first Joe Wilson. The first Joe Wilson, Joe Plame, came to fame by saying Bush lied during a State of the Union speech. Of course he didn't say that right away. He waited until they didn't find any weapons of mass destruction in Iraq five months or months after the invasion but before that, Joe Plame had insisted that Saddam had weapons of mass destruction, and Joe Wilson Plame made a career and a fortune out of calling Bush a liar. John Kerry even gave him a page on his campaign website, honesty.com. And now they want to censure the Republican Joe Wilson. Meanwhile, the media is slowing confirming that Joe Wilson was right. Obamacare will cover illegal immigrants. The Democrats have voted two times already to block proof of citizenship from the health care bill. This despite the fact that 83% of Americans say that proof of citizenship ought to be required to get government health aid. Now even the State-Controlled Media is being forced to report Obama was dishonest in his address to the nation.

http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/daily/site_091109/content/01125111.guest.html

The most disturbing part of your post is claiming the leftwing clueless MSM is in some way helping the Republicans/conservatives. The media has been and continues to be in the left wing Obama pocket...period. The only reason they are focusing on one man shouting and not the speech is because the components of the speech sucked and were the same drivel the American people continue to snub their nose at.

if you think the MSM has any other agenda than the president's bidding and kissing his ass tell me if you have heard this story reported anywhere on ABC,CBS,NBC,MSNBC,CNN etc... they all run the same state sponsored watered down drivel for your consumption and you by it.

http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/daily/site_091109/content/01125110.guest.html

[Broncojef]

Republicans had better straighten up and return to some form of civility! I know I'm asking for alot, however, the circular firing squad the shrinking GOP has been exhibiting is making them the laughing stock of the country and the world.

Remember, it was 8 years of Republican lack of leadership, incompetencies, greed and corruption that almost took America into another Republican caused Great Depression.

Right now the GOP is seen as the party of "NO", Obstructionism, the party who wishes the President fails, and a party that allows fringe extremist in their party to make 30 death threats a day against the President. And the various groups w/i GOP Republican voters are showing their long held racist beliefs are broiling to the surface as well.

America will not be in any great hurry to elect Republicans to mis-lead the country economically, financially, internationally, and domestically anytime soon.

I absolutely want this president to fail....I'm not a socialist, a communist or a fascist; as his policies and more of his real agenda are brought forward less and less people will buy into his crap. Disagreeing with the president or his policies is not racism, when an administration makes lousy policies and no one can challenge them or be given a label such as you put on them is ridiculous. This is still America and we will speak our mind whether the president is black, green, blue or yellow. We are at the height of mismanagement and poor leadership. Socialism and these morons (acorn,reid,pelosi,frank) will have their day but the American people won't stand for this much longer.

[Broncojef]

I believe what is really missing when it comes to the trust, transparency, and integrity from the WH and the Congress and American politics is the influence, corruption, and greed of BIG MONEY!

Money has tainted our Democracy, Politics, and our Republic!

When you meld together Coporate and Congressional, and Executive Branch alliances and allow these entities to grow powerful and influential, the Will of the People are ignored and taken for granted.

In the United States today the Government no longer fears its people. The people now fear the Government.

Only under this corrupt administration.

[Broncojef]

They take the focus off the president's speech and his effort to create health care reform and it stamps the message that he's lying.

Anyone trying to help the president at this point would cause diversionary tactics so people won't focus on his lousy legislation.

[kappys]

Only under this corrupt administration.

Yes there was a great spirit of unity and trust of Bush wasn't there? ::)

That said I'm not surprised at the vitriol being thrown out against Obama, its really not any worse than the stupidity and mockery of Bush and why should Obama deserve any special treatment in this regard?

I do think a congressman doing such in the middle of a Presidential speech is way over the line, but the general public reaction isn't all that shocking and really isn't different to me from what Bush endured.

[peacepipe]

You are as clueless as they come...google Democrats calling Bush a liar for 8 years over reaction to wars. How can you condemn one man speaking his mind when it was done at nauseum under Bush? I guess because the left wing media won't hand you the truth or have the balls to report anything even the slightest bit right leaning it never happened.

http://rawstory.com/news/2007/Congress_members_agree_No_calling_Bush_0716.html

Now, back on December 5th of 2004, on Meet the Press, during an interview, Harry Reid called George Bush a liar and then stood by the comment. Tim Russert: "When the president talked about Yucca Mountain and moving the nation's nuclear waste there you were very, very, very strong in your words, you said President Bush is a liar, he betrayed Nevada, he betrayed the country. Is that rhetoric appropriate?" Senator Reid: Well, I don't know if that rhetoric's appropriate. That's how I feel and that's how I felt." From Tim Green, the 2005 Rolling Stone magazine sit-down interview, Rolling Stone: "You've called Bush a loser." He did that to a bunch of school kids if you'll recall out in Nevada. Harry Reid says, "Yeah, I called him a loser and a liar." "And you apologized for the loser comment." Harry Reid: "But I never have for the liar comment, have I?"

And of course let's not forget the first Joe Wilson. The first Joe Wilson, Joe Plame, came to fame by saying Bush lied during a State of the Union speech. Of course he didn't say that right away. He waited until they didn't find any weapons of mass destruction in Iraq five months or months after the invasion but before that, Joe Plame had insisted that Saddam had weapons of mass destruction, and Joe Wilson Plame made a career and a fortune out of calling Bush a liar. John Kerry even gave him a page on his campaign website, honesty.com. And now they want to censure the Republican Joe Wilson. Meanwhile, the media is slowing confirming that Joe Wilson was right. Obamacare will cover illegal immigrants. The Democrats have voted two times already to block proof of citizenship from the health care bill. This despite the fact that 83% of Americans say that proof of citizenship ought to be required to get government health aid. Now even the State-Controlled Media is being forced to report Obama was dishonest in his address to the nation.

http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/daily/site_091109/content/01125111.guest.html

The most disturbing part of your post is claiming the leftwing clueless MSM is in some way helping the Republicans/conservatives. The media has been and continues to be in the left wing Obama pocket...period. The only reason they are focusing on one man shouting and not the speech is because the components of the speech sucked and were the same drivel the American people continue to snub their nose at.

if you think the MSM has any other agenda than the president's bidding and kissing his ass tell me if you have heard this story reported anywhere on ABC,CBS,NBC,MSNBC,CNN etc... they all run the same state sponsored watered down drivel for your consumption and you by it.

http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/daily/site_091109/content/01125110.guest.html


HOW MANY DEMS YELLED IT OUT DURING ANY OF GWBS SPEECHES IN THE HOUSE?

http://rules-republicans.house.gov/Educational/Read.aspx?ID=5

[epicSocialism4tw]

Yes there was a great spirit of unity and trust of Bush wasn't there? ::)

That said I'm not surprised at the vitriol being thrown out against Obama, its really not any worse than the stupidity and mockery of Bush and why should Obama deserve any special treatment in this regard?

I do think a congressman doing such in the middle of a Presidential speech is way over the line, but the general public reaction isn't all that shocking and really isn't different to me from what Bush endured.

The internet age has really created a rabid environment for politics.

[peacepipe]

The Origins of the Decorum Rules

The Rules of the House give the Speaker broad authority to maintain decorum in the House. Much of this authority is codified in Rule XVII, but is also contained in Jefferson’s Manual, which is incorporated by reference into the Rules of the House. The Rules, when combined with the principles described in Jefferson’s Manual and the precedents of the House form the basis of the decorum rules in the House. The intent is to provide an atmosphere where the Members of the House debate the legislative issues before them, rather than engaging in “personality” by characterizing the actions of another Member or showing disrespect to the institution.
Dress and Comportment

Members are required to dress appropriately, which has traditionally been considered to include a coat and tie for male Members and appropriate business attire for female Members. Members should not wear overcoats or hats on the floor while the House is in session. No eating, drinking, or smoking is permitted, and the use of personal electronic equipment, including cellular phones and laptop computers, is banned on the floor of the House. The rule does permit the use of “unobtrusive handheld electronic devices” such as a Blackberry.
A Member must stand while speaking and address the Chair in their remarks (Mister or Madam Speaker; Mister or Madam Chairman). They must also refrain from addressing other Members, the President, the gallery, or the television viewing audience.
Members are required to avoid walking between the Chair and any Member addressing the House and Members should not walk through the well of the House when Members are speaking.
Exhibits

Although Members are permitted to use exhibits such as charts during debate, exhibits which demean the House or a Member of the House, or otherwise violate the rules of decorum are prohibited. Any Member may object to the use of an exhibit, and the Speaker may submit the question of the propriety of the exhibit to the House without a ruling, requiring that the House vote on whether or not the exhibit should be permitted. Similarly, Members are prohibited from wearing badges to convey political messages while speaking.
Unparliamentary Speech

A Member should avoid impugning the motives of another Member, the Senate or the President, using offensive language, or uttering words that are otherwise deemed unparliamentary. These actions are strictly against House Rules and are subject to a demand that the words be taken down. A demand that the Member’s words be taken down results in the clerk reporting the words and the chair ruling on the propriety of the words. (If the demand is made in the Committee of the Whole, the Committee rises and reports them to the House where the Chair rules on their propriety).
The offending Member may obtain unanimous consent to withdraw the inappropriate words or the demand may be withdrawn. Following such a withdrawal, the Member proceeds in order. However, if the Member’s words are ruled out of order, they may be stricken from the Congressional Record by motion or unanimous consent, and the Member will not be allowed to speak again on that day except by motion or unanimous consent.
References to the Senate or Executive Branch

Until the 109th Congress, it was not in order to make certain references to the Senate or individual senators. However, at the beginning of that Congress, the House removed the prohibition on making references to the Senate, leaving only the requirement that debate be confined to the question under debate and avoid “personality.” The precedents of the House allow a wide latitude in criticism of the President, other executive officials, and the government itself. However, it is not permissible to use language that is personally offensive to the President, such as referring to him as a “hypocrite” or a “liar.” Similarly, it is not in order to refer to the President as “intellectually dishonest” or an action taken by the President as “cowardly.” References to the Vice President, in spite of his role as President of the Senate, are measured against the standard used for the President rather than prior standards used to govern the Senate.

[Bob]

Republicans had better straighten up and return to some form of civility! I know I'm asking for alot, however, the circular firing squad the shrinking GOP has been exhibiting is making them the laughing stock of the country and the world.

Remember, it was 8 years of Republican lack of leadership, incompetencies, greed and corruption that almost took America into another Republican caused Great Depression.

Right now the GOP is seen as the party of "NO", Obstructionism, the party who wishes the President fails, and a party that allows fringe extremist in their party to make 30 death threats a day against the President. And the various groups w/i GOP Republican voters are showing their long held racist beliefs are broiling to the surface as well.

America will not be in any great hurry to elect Republicans to mis-lead the country economically, financially, internationally, and domestically anytime soon.

What you dont understand that people that have a problem with teh direction of the country had many of these concerns with Bush -- and the GOP is a moot point, they have betrayed conservitives long ago. There are many more conservatives and I's than GOP folks. Its time for all Americans to drop the lable of party, to the degree they can.