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View Full Version : It's past the cut dead line - where is the list of players cut???


baja
09-05-2009, 05:21 PM
Is it being kept a secret?

TheDave
09-05-2009, 05:23 PM
Same place the injury report is ;D ... Guess were going to have to wait until the NFL releases the official roster of each team.

baja
09-05-2009, 05:27 PM
Someone should tell this Patriots prodigy the fans pay his damn salary and should be extended some consideration. I don't like the smugness of this guy sometimes.

Conklin
09-05-2009, 05:27 PM
check kffl.com/hotw/nfl they've got pretty much all the teams listed

ludo21
09-05-2009, 05:28 PM
ya it is a bit odd.

TheDave
09-05-2009, 05:29 PM
Someone should tell this Patriots prodigy the fans pay his damn salary and should be extended some consideration. I don't like the smugness of this guy sometimes.

This kinda stuff doesn't bother me... If he wants to keep everything in-house. So be it.

baja
09-05-2009, 05:31 PM
thanks Conklin

t also appears the NFL's official "Black Book" -- a beat writer's bible -- is wrong. The deadline for cuts is 4 p.m. Mountain Time, not 2. 09-05

This is what they say and the list is past due.

errand
09-05-2009, 05:32 PM
This kinda stuff doesn't bother me... If he wants to keep everything in-house. So be it.

Exactly....some on here have short memeories. Remember when Mike got into a little trouble for not disclosing information on the NFL's injury list....so he made sure that any player who stepped foot into the trainer's room was listed.

BroncoBuff
09-05-2009, 05:32 PM
It's gonna be brutal and bloody.

footstepsfrom#27
09-05-2009, 05:35 PM
I can't imagine he's keeping it secret...what would be the point?

baja
09-05-2009, 05:35 PM
Exactly....some on here have short memeories. Remember when Mike got into a little trouble for not disclosing information on the NFL's injury list....so he made sure that any player who stepped foot into the trainer's room was listed.

Injury report I get, disclosing to much info gives the opponent a possible edge.

keeping the final roster under raps = disregard for the fans

baja
09-05-2009, 05:37 PM
I can't imagine he's keeping it secret...what would be the point?

Exactly but it is 5:45 in Denver and the list had to be in by 4:00 PM

baja
09-05-2009, 05:39 PM
It's gonna be brutal and bloody.

It used to be important around here but now changing names to "McSomething" is the focus here now.

Houshyamama
09-05-2009, 05:40 PM
How many more to be cut?

baja
09-05-2009, 05:41 PM
Lindsay Jones - @broncotalk Nope, there was a firm deadline. Not sure what the holdup is on the release. We've got most confirmed and good guesses on others 09-05

footstepsfrom#27
09-05-2009, 05:42 PM
Exactly but it is 5:45 in Denver and the list had to be in by 4:00 PM
In to the league office? That wouldn't necessarily mean it gets posted by 4 I guess. Maybe they're saving money and McD has to do the website? ;D

baja
09-05-2009, 05:45 PM
In to the league office? That wouldn't necessarily mean it gets posted by 4 I guess. Maybe they're saving money and McD has to do the website? ;D

Seems to me that in these tough times they would be conscious of being more considerate of there fans.

baja
09-05-2009, 05:46 PM
I want to know if Moss made the team.

TheDave
09-05-2009, 05:49 PM
Broncos | Moss makes team
Sat, 05 Sep 2009 12:37:26 -0700
Lindsay Jones, of The Denver Post (http://www.kffl.com/link/184), reports the Denver Broncos (http://www.kffl.com/team/15/nfl) have informed LB Jarvis Moss (http://www.kffl.com/player/16119/nfl) that he has made the team.

baja
09-05-2009, 05:52 PM
thanks dave

I can go the the movies now gonna see inglourious basterds

elsid13
09-05-2009, 05:54 PM
Yahoo is reporting Marcus Thomas DT is cut.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/trans;_ylt=AuOee3RUrGgsTyfaqf2PRnFDubYF

TheDave
09-05-2009, 05:55 PM
Yahoo is reporting Marcus Thomas DT is cut.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/trans;_ylt=AuOee3RUrGgsTyfaqf2PRnFDubYF

Guess we just figured out who's spot Holliday took... ;D

Traveler
09-05-2009, 06:00 PM
Guess we just figured out who's spot Holliday took... ;D

He wasn't released according to Frank Schwab.

Frank Schwab has confirmed that Marcus Thomas (DT) was NOT cut:


Quote:
@fs3142 @BroncosForums Yes, just confirmed DT Marcus Thomas was NOT released.

Houshyamama
09-05-2009, 06:02 PM
Yahoo is reporting Marcus Thomas DT is cut.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/trans;_ylt=AuOee3RUrGgsTyfaqf2PRnFDubYF
uhh... edited my post

errand
09-05-2009, 06:02 PM
Injury report I get, disclosing to much info gives the opponent a possible edge.

keeping the final roster under raps = disregard for the fans

...as opposed to opposing team's knowing who is and isn't on the team, or which players they could claim or sign?

BTW his obligation isn't to the fans....it's to the man who signs his paychecks. that's why he didn't consult you or anyone else when he made the moves he's made, if he let the fans pick his team we'd or decide who the starters are....well, i doubt the Broncos would be worth watching at all.

Now Bowlen as owner of the franchise is obligated to the fans.

TheDave
09-05-2009, 06:04 PM
He wasn't released according to Frank Schwab.

Frank Schwab has confirmed that Marcus Thomas (DT) was NOT cut:


Quote:
@fs3142 @BroncosForums Yes, just confirmed DT Marcus Thomas was NOT released.

Hmmm... Guess were just going to have to wait for the official list.

errand
09-05-2009, 06:11 PM
Seems to me that in these tough times they would be conscious of being more considerate of there fans.

Yes, it would be in their best interests to do so, most businesses pay attention to their customers...

however when you've got a fan base of people who don't care if their players come from Penn State or the State Pen, and who eat, drink, and sleep NFL football...well i think they know they can do pretty much whatever they want to do...and you'll still be just as ate up with football as before.

SouthStndJunkie
09-05-2009, 06:11 PM
Get used to this kind of lack of information....it's just the way those NE guys roll.

listopencil
09-05-2009, 06:12 PM
Yahoo sucks ass.

baja
09-05-2009, 06:12 PM
...as opposed to opposing team's knowing who is and isn't on the team, or which players they could claim or sign?

BTW his obligation isn't to the fans....it's to the man who signs his paychecks. that's why he didn't consult you or anyone else when he made the moves he's made, if he let the fans pick his team we'd or decide who the starters are....well, i doubt the Broncos would be worth watching at all.

Now Bowlen as owner of the franchise is obligated to the fans.

I won't even honor that bull shiit reasoning with a response.

Connecticut Bronco Fan
09-05-2009, 06:14 PM
I won't even honor that bull shiit reasoning with a response.

you just did.

baja
09-05-2009, 06:17 PM
you just did.

No I I gave him the Internet equivalent of a head shake and look of distain.

listopencil
09-05-2009, 06:18 PM
WEll, NFL.com only has the Sept. 4th cuts listed...


Rashod Moulton (http://www.nfl.com/players/rashodmoulton/profile?id=MOU373418) (CB) cut.
Matt McChesney (http://www.nfl.com/players/mattmcchesney/profile?id=MCC294626) (T) Placed on IR (sprained ankle).
Ingle Martin (http://www.nfl.com/players/inglemartin/profile?id=MAR626486) (QB) cut.
Clint Oldenburg (http://www.nfl.com/players/clintoldenburg/profile?id=OLD105154) (T) cut.
Carlton Powell (http://www.nfl.com/players/carltonpowell/profile?id=POW192811) (DT) cut.
Marcus Thomas (http://www.nfl.com/players/marcusd.thomas/profile?id=THO304236) (DT) cut.
Kory Lichtensteiger (http://www.nfl.com/players/korylichtensteiger/profile?id=LIC311468) (C) cut.
Matthias Askew (http://www.nfl.com/players/matthiasaskew/profile?id=ASK302361) (DT) cut.
Marcus Thomas (http://www.nfl.com/players/marcusb.thomas/profile?id=THO304141) (RB) cut


http://www.nfl.com/transactions?transactionMonth=9&transactionYear=2009&transactionTeamAbbr=&prevTransactionTeamAbbr=&prevTransactionMonth=0&prevTransactionYear=0

...they still show both Marcus Thomas' as being cut.

Cito Pelon
09-05-2009, 06:33 PM
Get used to this kind of lack of information....it's just the way those NE guys roll.

So who has released info on their cuts ahead of the Broncos?

Cito Pelon
09-05-2009, 06:36 PM
Now I hear Crowder cut, Moss stays.

listopencil
09-05-2009, 06:37 PM
So who has released info on their cuts ahead of the Broncos?

Falcons, Rams, Steelers, 9ers, Bears, Ravens, Bengals, Cowboys, Packers that I'm seeing on NFL.com.

Cito Pelon
09-05-2009, 06:38 PM
http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_13277671

Rohirrim
09-05-2009, 06:38 PM
The announcement from Dove Valley is that the lower extremities were cut, while the upper extremities will remain with the team. ;D

Cito Pelon
09-05-2009, 06:39 PM
Falcons, Rams, Steelers, 9ers, Bears, Ravens, Bengals, Cowboys, Packers that I'm seeing on NFL.com.

But it wasn't like hours ahead so it would be a big deal.

Cito Pelon
09-05-2009, 06:41 PM
Moss stays. Dude has to step it up. He has some good skills. He doesn't attack all that well.

baja
09-05-2009, 06:44 PM
The announcement from Dove Valley is that the lower extremities were cut, while the upper extremities will remain with the team. ;D

Damn I heard just the opposite and from a well placed religious source that Marshall to NY was a done deal

Cito Pelon
09-05-2009, 06:46 PM
The Post says Crowder cut, I haven't heard anything more.

Cito Pelon
09-05-2009, 06:49 PM
12 minutes left.

baja
09-05-2009, 06:52 PM
greggrosenthal Heck if I know. I've been bugging the PR dept and they claim not to have it yet. Sigh. 09-06

Cito Pelon
09-05-2009, 06:53 PM
greggrosenthal Heck if I know. I've been bugging the PR dept and they claim not to have it yet. Sigh. 09-06

Top of the hour it will all come flooding in.

Rohirrim
09-05-2009, 06:54 PM
They better not cut the Mighty McChesney. It will adversely affect team morale.

footstepsfrom#27
09-05-2009, 06:54 PM
greggrosenthal Heck if I know. I've been bugging the PR dept and they claim not to have it yet. Sigh. 09-06
Maybe they texted it. Ha!

baja
09-05-2009, 06:54 PM
well gotta go to my show....

Hercules Rockefeller
09-05-2009, 06:56 PM
Get used to this kind of lack of information....it's just the way those NE guys roll.

Yes, they plan to keep their 53-man roster a secret from everyone.

Seriously, can you guys at least come up with plausible complaints about the current regime or is this the kind of crap we'll continue to see?

BroncoBuff
09-05-2009, 07:07 PM
Yes, they plan to keep their 53-man roster a secret from everyone.

Seriously, can you guys at least come up with plausible complaints about the current regime or is this the kind of crap we'll continue to see?

Not a complaint, just reality. The release saying a player's injury occurred to a body part "located above the ground" was just our first clue SSJ is correct here.

errand
09-05-2009, 07:10 PM
Yes, they plan to keep their 53-man roster a secret from everyone.

Seriously, can you guys at least come up with plausible complaints about the current regime or is this the kind of crap we'll continue to see?

I find it amazing they keep pointing out how it's bad to emulate a team that's won half of the AFC championships in the current decade...winning 3 out of the last 8 NFL titles....and even wins 11 games without their best player.

Yeah, we should try to be more like the Lions...they keep their fans promptly informed

gtown
09-05-2009, 07:14 PM
They better not cut the Mighty McChesney. It will adversely affect team morale.

I heard that McChesney cut us. The question is can the Broncos as a team handle this rejection and begin the healing process.

cutthemdown
09-05-2009, 07:15 PM
Yes, they plan to keep their 53-man roster a secret from everyone.

Seriously, can you guys at least come up with plausible complaints about the current regime or is this the kind of crap we'll continue to see?

you may want to not announce too quick guys you want on practice squad. Or you might not play a player in preseason because you want him on practice squad. Then you cut that player early and hope no team snags him etc.

Fans want information but eventually you get it. Why do you need to know whose cut right away? Or what players they want for practice squad, or who is going to play this Sunday etc? If they tell you they tell the enemy.

Listen to posters like Rockefeller who are talking sense. The nonsense on the board is ridiculous.

PaintballCLE
09-05-2009, 07:16 PM
hopefully the rumor of cutting mcbean is wrong

Cito Pelon
09-05-2009, 07:16 PM
Not a complaint, just reality. The release saying a player's injury occurred to a body part "located above the ground" was just our first clue SSJ is correct here.

OTOH, having a little fun from their perspective is not so bad.

errand
09-05-2009, 07:24 PM
Tomlin was also reluctant to announce his cuts as well...until the last possible minute. Gee another SB winning team playing it close to the vest. but let's be like those crazy Raiders who announce theirs as soon before the Turk knocks on their door.

cutthemdown
09-05-2009, 07:39 PM
Tomlin was also reluctant to announce his cuts as well...until the last possible minute. Gee another SB winning team playing it close to the vest. but let's be like those crazy Raiders who announce theirs as soon before the Turk knocks on their door.

They would like to be told before the player does. I mean cmon these are the Orangemane fans!!!!!!!!!!Booya!

cutthemdown
09-05-2009, 07:41 PM
hopefully the rumor of cutting mcbean is wrong

that would be strange, unless they always planned on having Holiday in that spot.

Holiday is he's healthy and Peterson are actually pretty stout Dends. It could allow for Doom to really make some noise this yr.

Still you would think Mcbean cheap, was running 1st team, would be a shoe in to at least be the bkup dend.

SouthStndJunkie
09-05-2009, 07:42 PM
Yes, they plan to keep their 53-man roster a secret from everyone.

Seriously, can you guys at least come up with plausible complaints about the current regime or is this the kind of crap we'll continue to see?

Seriously....lighten up a little ****ing bit.

Some of you are wound so tight that I highly doubt you have had a single day of fun in your entire lives.

I posted that to get a rise out of posters like you.

Besides....how am I wrong? We seem to be keeping a lot of information as secretive as possible ala New England. Facts are facts....that is just how we roll these days and we need to get used to it.

baja
09-05-2009, 10:53 PM
still no list. There is no reason to do this. Cut your reason is not valid, the list had to be submitted to the NFL do you really think there is even one team that does not know who was cut on every single other team. If there was an advantage I would have no issue but there isn't. This is truly turning into the No Fun League.

cutthemdown
09-05-2009, 11:07 PM
still no list. There is no reason to do this. Cut your reason is not valid, the list had to be submitted to the NFL do you really think there is even one team that does not know who was cut on every single other team. If there was an advantage I would have no issue but there isn't. This is truly turning into the No Fun League.

My point was more to the fact you might not play a rookie much in preseason if you plan on putting him on practice squad.

I agree I'm sure the list is available to all the teams if they contact the NFL league office. Still though there is a lot of gamesmanship when it comes to how you cut a player, if you want him on practice squad.

I guess I just don't worked up over what bkups make the team.

Cito Pelon
09-05-2009, 11:31 PM
Seriously....lighten up a little ****ing bit.

Some of you are wound so tight that I highly doubt you have had a single day of fun in your entire lives.

I posted that to get a rise out of posters like you.

Besides....how am I wrong? We seem to be keeping a lot of information as secretive as possible ala New England. Facts are facts....that is just how we roll these days and we need to get used to it.

There's a grudging, secretive culture. I don't think it's a big deal. The media guys hate it. They absolutely hate it, and local radio guys have gone so far as to say, "If you **** around with us, we'll retaliate by ****ing around with you."

Shanny was very open, and the locals are used to that. They've been very clear they're gonna rag on McD if he isn't that open. We'll see how it pans out.

BigPlayShay
09-05-2009, 11:36 PM
Roster on db.com seems to reflect the final 53. Just the Marshall issue to deal with tomorrow:

http://www.denverbroncos.com/page.php?id=331&sort=Number

JCMElway
09-05-2009, 11:36 PM
Don't know if this is has been posted in here, but:

Via PFT

The Denver Broncos have made the moves necessary to get in place the first 53-man roster of the Josh McDaniels era.

Gone are tight end Maquez Branson, cornerback Tony Carter, defensive lineman Nic Clemons, linebacker/defensive end Tim Crowder, guard Mitch Erickson, safety Vernon Fox, cornerback D.J. Johnson, linebacker Braxton Kelley, defensive lineman Everette Pedescleaux, defensive back Antwain Spann, running back Darius Walker, and receiver Matt Willis.

The Broncos also waived/injured cornerback Joshua Bell, and signed veteran defensive lineman Vonnie Holliday.

Holliday, an 11-year veteran, was a first-round pick of the Packers in 1998. After five years in Green Bay, he spent two seasons in Kansas City and the last four with the Dolphins.

The moves mean that Jarvis Moss, a first-round pick in the 2007 draft who reportedly nearly retired early in camp, has made the team (for now) after converting from a 4-3 defensive end to a 3-4 linebacker.

Cito Pelon
09-05-2009, 11:43 PM
Roster on db.com seems to reflect the final 53. Just the Marshall issue to deal with tomorrow:

http://www.denverbroncos.com/page.php?id=331&sort=Number

That was pretty quick. I had just looked at db.com before coming back to this page.

Well, that link is the 2009 Denver Broncos.

fdf
09-06-2009, 12:08 AM
That was pretty quick. I had just looked at db.com before coming back to this page.

Well, that link is the 2009 Denver Broncos.

Looks like Lamont Jordan will be around not gaining yards for us.

BroncoBuff
09-06-2009, 01:08 AM
I don't feel like counting all the names on that list, so somebody just please tell me: do we have 53 now including Marshall, or do we have to cut somebody tomorrow?

baja
09-06-2009, 01:10 AM
54

BroncoMan4ever
09-06-2009, 02:12 AM
Get used to this kind of lack of information....it's just the way those NE guys roll.

if he rolls a few championships to Denver, he can do whatever the hell he wants to with his secrecy on the team and where any hoodie he wants. i don't give a damn what he does or if he is called a guy just copying the Pats scheme, if it works i don't care

SouthStndJunkie
09-06-2009, 02:25 AM
if he rolls a few championships to Denver, he can do whatever the hell he wants to with his secrecy on the team and where any hoodie he wants. i don't give a damn what he does or if he is called a guy just copying the Pats scheme, if it works i don't care

I agree 100%, winning is what it is all about....however if it were as easy as that, Romeo Crennel would still be with the Browns and Eric Mangini would still be with the Jets.

So let's worry about getting a win or two under our belts before talking championships.

I am simply stating that the new regime will keep a lid on things and to get used to it....and it seems a lot of posters are getting defensive about it....when in all reality it is not a positive or a negative....just a matter of truth.

~Crash~
09-06-2009, 02:50 AM
I agree 100%, winning is what it is all about....however if it were as easy as that, Romeo Crennel would still be with the Browns and Eric Mangini would still be with the Jets.

So let's worry about getting a win or two under our belts before talking championships.

I am simply stating that the new regime will keep a lid on things and to get used to it....and it seems a lot of posters are getting defensive about it....when in all reality it is not a positive or a negative....just a matter of truth.

Word

cutthemdown
09-06-2009, 03:31 AM
I agree 100%, winning is what it is all about....however if it were as easy as that, Romeo Crennel would still be with the Browns and Eric Mangini would still be with the Jets.

So let's worry about getting a win or two under our belts before talking championships.

I am simply stating that the new regime will keep a lid on things and to get used to it....and it seems a lot of posters are getting defensive about it....when in all reality it is not a positive or a negative....just a matter of truth.

Shanny played mind games also though. He went about it a tad different but Broncos have been known to stick just about every player on the injured list lol. NE would list none, we would list every starter, but both ways meant to confuse the opposition.

It's part of the gamesmanship of the NFL and it's a fun thing to watch in it's own right.

Sometimes you tell the truth, sometimes you lie, that way other teams really don't know what to believe when you say something. Not cool in real life but its part of football now.

Frankly I'm surprised the fans take things like we aren't looking to trade said player, or we are benching said player, or anything really as something that should be the truth.

The only thing players and the team owe the fans in 100% effort and don't break the law. They don't owe me correct info on trade talks, contract talks, or injury reports. In that regard I expect my team to be sneaky, sly and covert.

I agree that these new leaders of the team have a lot to learn. I do see though a plan and a lot of dedication. Mcdaniels working his ass off from what I have read and seen, that's all I ask for.

Until 3 yrs have gone by then I expect playoff wins.

baja
09-06-2009, 08:37 AM
I agree 100%,<b> winning is what it is all about...</b>.however if it were as easy as that, Romeo Crennel would still be with the Browns and Eric Mangini would still be with the Jets.

So let's worry about getting a win or two under our belts before talking championships.

I am simply stating that the new regime will keep a lid on things and to get used to it....and it seems a lot of posters are getting defensive about it....when in all reality it is not a positive or a negative....just a matter of truth.

See I don't agree with this statement. I read this over and over here, winning is everything. If that is the case why the uproar about spy gate or Al Davis' treatment of some players (not releasing them to find another team) I did not like Shanahan's Broncos of the last few years and not because the did not "win" enough but because they reflected a could care less attitude.

I will gladly take a few less wins for a couple of seasons while McD builds a team of smart players that love playing the game of football and play for each other to the extent that they leave it all on the field each and every week. It is this that I love about watching football not just the win loss column. I got so sick ow watching mopey Jay sulk on the sidelines or call out his team mates in the press. I am so glad he is gone and McD is building a "TEAM" here. I believe the Broncos are going to be FUN to watch again and given a little time they will win and win big.

No Junkie winning is not everything, it's how you play the game IMO


The winning will come with McD and everyone will be singing his praises mark my words.

baja
09-06-2009, 08:42 AM
Shanny played mind games also though. He went about it a tad different but Broncos have been known to stick just about every player on the injured list lol. NE would list none, we would list every starter, but both ways meant to confuse the opposition.

It's part of the gamesmanship of the NFL and it's a fun thing to watch in it's own right.

Sometimes you tell the truth, sometimes you lie, that way other teams really don't know what to believe when you say something. Not cool in real life but its part of football now.

Frankly I'm surprised the fans take things like we aren't looking to trade said player, or we are benching said player, or anything really as something that should be the truth.

The only thing players and the team owe the fans in 100% effort and don't break the law. They don't owe me correct info on trade talks, contract talks, or injury reports. In that regard I expect my team to be sneaky, sly and covert.

I agree that these new leaders of the team have a lot to learn. I do see though a plan and a lot of dedication. Mcdaniels working his ass off from what I have read and seen, that's all I ask for.

Until 3 yrs have gone by then I expect playoff wins.

When did this become about the injury report? I don't see one post complaining about the injury report habits of any team. Personally I love the creativity of some teams in the way they spread their disinformation about injuries.

SouthStndJunkie
09-06-2009, 11:08 AM
See I don't agree with this statement. I read this over and over here, winning is everything. If that is the case why the uproar about spy gate or Al Davis' treatment of some players (not releasing them to find another team) I did not like Shanahan's Broncos of the last few years and not because the did not "win" enough but because they reflected a could care less attitude.

I will gladly take a few less wins for a couple of seasons while McD builds a team of smart players that love playing the game of football and play for each other to the extent that they leave it all on the field each and every week. It is this that I love about watching football not just the win loss column. I got so sick ow watching mopey Jay sulk on the sidelines or call out his team mates in the press. I am so glad he is gone and McD is building a "TEAM" here. I believe the Broncos are going to be FUN to watch again and given a little time they will win and win big.

No Junkie winning is not everything, it's how you play the game IMO


The winning will come with McD and everyone will be singing his praises mark my words.

The NFL is a bottom line league (a business) and that equates to wins....besides....I never said winning is everything....I said winning is what it's all about....and every coach and owner in the league knows this.

If Shanny and Jay won the division with 10 or 11 wins, they would still be here....bottom line is wins, division titles, playoff games, and Super Bowls and Shanny did not produce enough wins to keep his job. Bowlen could probably dislike Shanny, but if Shanny kept winning, he would have kept his job.

I am all about building a "TEAM" like you state....but the "TEAM" has to win games.

baja
09-06-2009, 11:48 AM
The NFL is a bottom line league (a business) and that equates to wins....besides....I never said winning is everything....I said winning is what it's all about....and every coach and owner in the league knows this.

If Shanny and Jay won the division with 10 or 11 wins, they would still be here....bottom line is wins, division titles, playoff games, and Super Bowls and Shanny did not produce enough wins to keep his job. Bowlen could probably dislike Shanny, but if Shanny kept winning, he would have kept his job.

<b>I am all about building a "TEAM" like you state....but the "TEAM" has to win games.
Than we are in agreement ;D