If the Right Had the Clout...

[Rohirrim]

Would they have impeached Obama by now? Just wondering. In all my many years of watching politics I have never seen a party go after a president with this much venom right out of the gate. Even before he got into office they were on the attack. I'm trying to figure it out. Obama strikes me as pretty conservative for a Democrat. All his economic decisions are not the basis of some sweeping new programs he's bringing in. They are a reaction to an economy going off a cliff and I'm pretty sure he took the actions he did based on the advise of Paulson, Bernanke, Geithner, et al, who know far more about it than he does. After all, he's a lawyer, not an economist. Like he said, this was the last thing he wanted to dominate his agenda when he envisioned becoming president.

What I don't get is the pure venom directed at Obama from the Right. They are hitting him with every slur they can think of every day. Obviously the hysteria over "socialism" is BS. If it wasn't, then why is the hard Left so pissed at him for being such a centrist? Every day, since Obama has become president, the Right has launched some new attack against him. It's like they've gone into permanent campaign mode. This hysteria over the school speech is just the latest example. I'm sure if the WH came out tomorrow and said the president is going to offer a resolution to Congress making it "National Love Your Pet Day" the Right would start some campaign saying, "Now the fascist Obama is trying to tell us how to treat our pets!"

I just wonder what they hope to gain by destroying a president? And where is it coming from? What is the motive? Will this move the country forward? Every legitimate political analyst I've heard has called Obama an incrementalist and a centrist (which is why the Left is so pissed at him - they dreamed he would change once he won). But I have rarely seen such unreasoning, unrelenting fury launched at a president.

You could understand it with LBJ and Nixon (Vietnam). Or Bush (Iraq). There were people dying and that brings out intense emotion. But Obama's policies on Afghanistan and Iraq are simply continuations of Bush policies (sad to say) and haven't yet been added to the attack ammo of the Right (although they now seem to be warming it up). The notable thing about the hysterical attacks on Obama is that they never relent. They seem to be orchestrated daily like some kind of permanent campaign of Swift Boating.

Even on health care, the Right doesn't want to offer any solution of their own other than their famous, old platform chestnut "tort reform," where they blame every ill in society on lawyers. Other than that, they don't seem to care much about it. Some of their leaders have actually come out and said they just see this as an opportunity to destroy this president. They rigged up the town hall insanity, the tea baggers, and what not, simply to attack. There is no dialogue there. No solutions. The Right has treated the "health care debate" like they've treated every other challenge that has come up for this country in the seven months of Obama's presidency: Another opportunity to tear down this president.

I can finally only conclude it is based on something else, like the color of his skin. That would explain the fury, and the fear, that fuels these daily attacks. Even politics doesn't get this nasty, or raise such unreasoning hysteria.

[Bronx33]

All i know is obama has a golden rip opportunity to do some real good for the people and his race and all i have seen is a grab for power and a party drivin agenda should we impeach obama ( i don't think so) but the guy better start pointing this ship in a productive direction or it's going down and that's by his own hand ( not right pressure) which some posted seem too be blaming obamas stalled program push.

People just woke up and wanted questions answered ( nothing more nothing less) and there is not a damn thing wrong with that.

[W*GS]

As I've said before, the Right is using a "scorched earth" campaign - lay waste to the political process, as they have nothing to offer.

If they can't govern, they'll make things ungovernable. It's suicidal - sadly, not just for them.

[Rohirrim]

As I've said before, the Right is using a "scorched earth" campaign - lay waste to the political process, as they have nothing to offer.

If they can't govern, they'll make things ungovernable. It's suicidal - sadly, not just for them.

That's what I'm afraid is happening. Maybe I haven't lived long enough, but I don't remember ever seeing this kind of fanaticism in American politics.

[Bronx33]

As I've said before, the Right is using a "scorched earth" campaign - lay waste to the political process, as they have nothing to offer.

If they can't govern, they'll make things ungovernable. It's suicidal - sadly, not just for them.

People saying slow down and explain is before you pass it equates to ( scorched earth campaign?) :spit:

[Rohirrim]

People saying slow down and explain is before you pass it equates to ( scorched earth campaign?) :spit:

Pass what? They've been on recess the entire month.

[El Minion]

Obama should do what Eisenhower did with McCarthy, the continued vitriol from Rush, etc. will only hang themselves in the eyes of moderate republicans and independents. The more fridge a political parties talking points become the more marginalized come election time.

[Bronx33]

Pass what? They've been on recess the entire month.


Dude what were they trying to cram through before the recess they did manage to get cap and tax past the first hurdle without anybody reading it in the first 100 days.

[W*GS]

People saying slow down and explain is before you pass it equates to ( scorched earth campaign?) :spit:

That greatly understates the right's tactics against Obama.

But, as a conservative, you don't see anything wrong with pointless obstructionism, since that's the only thing you've got.

[Rohirrim]

Dude what were they trying to cram through before the recess they did manage to get cap and tax past the first hurdle without anybody reading it in the first 100 days.

So, you would argue that the Rights' dialogue concerning Obama is pretty much the political norm in this country? Nothing out of the ordinary?

[tnedator]

So, you would argue that the Rights' dialogue concerning Obama is pretty much the political norm in this country? Nothing out of the ordinary?

No, I wouldn't say that. I don't think it's the norm.

I would say that it has been mild compared to what the left said about Bush and the GOP candidates for the 2008 election.

[Bronx33]

That greatly understates the right's tactics against Obama.

But, as a conservative, you don't see anything wrong with pointless obstructionism, since that's the only thing you've got.


Hmmm ok so sitting back and letting obama do whatever he wants is your political master plan, iam just glad we the people have freaking voice that can still he heard if you had your way they wouldn't have a voice ( just shut up and get out of the way) that's what obama should have named his campaign run.

[ant1999e]

No, I wouldn't say that. I don't think it's the norm.

I would say that it has been mild compared to what the left said about Bush and the GOP candidates for the 2008 election.

No ****. I can't believe the nerve of these people. The pot calling the kettle black.

[tnedator]

No ****. I can't believe the nerve of these people. The pot calling the kettle black.

I mean even if they ignored MSNBC, CNN, CBS, NBC, most major newspapers, major comedians and Hollywood, just to name SOME of the Bush/GOP bashers, all anyone had to do is read threads in this very forum (WPR) for the last few years, to see a representation of what the 'left' does in terms of scorched earth, smear, spin and every other word you want to apply to reprehensible behavior in regards to handling of 'facts' and 'truth'.

[W*GS]

Hmmm ok so sitting back and letting obama do whatever he wants is your political master plan, iam just glad we the people have freaking voice that can still he heard if you had your way they wouldn't have a voice ( just shut up and get out of the way) that's what obama should have named his campaign run.

No.

It's one thing to debate the details of the needed health care reform; it's another to label anything and everything in Obama's plans "socialist", or to use the phrase "death panels", or to claim Stephen Hawking would have been left to die.

Honest debate and argumentation is one thing; the tactics of the right are something else entirely - dishonest, propagandistic, and with no counterideas of their own. Compromise and concessions are impossible with that mentality, and that's the intent. Not only refuse to play the game, the right is wrecking the pieces.

[TexanBob]

In all my many years of watching politics I have never seen a party go after a president with this much venom right out of the gate.

Roh, I stopped reading as soon as I read this.

The Democrats didn't even wait for Bush to take office in 2001 before they were already savaging him, vowing not to pass his judge nominations, calling him "resident Bush", etc. I understand the bitterness over a close and questionable election but don't think for a minute that Obama has been attacked more than Bush was. That's just blatantly stupid.

In fact, the GOP (as opposed to conservative voices like Limbaugh, Beck, Hannity, et al) have treated Obama with kid gloves. They were so afraid of being called racist that they totally caved on issue after issue. It wasn't until the Dems wanted to outlaw everyone's health insurance and replace it with CommieCare that elected GOP members found any voice at all.

That's what scares this administration and their liberal lapdog media so much. The elected GOP has largely laid down and stayed quiet for the first seven months. It was the *grass roots* that have risen up to oppose Obama, not the GOP leadership. There IS NO GOP LEADERSHIP. What you are watching is Americans themselves who are standing up and saying "what the hell have you done with our country?"

If you ask me, the hysteria and dishonesty has been 90% on the left.

[TexanBob]

So, you would argue that the Rights' dialogue concerning Obama is pretty much the political norm in this country? Nothing out of the ordinary?

Yes. Ever since the media and the Left tried to destroy Reagan with lie after lie (Robert Bork, anyone?), this is EXACTLY the level of political discourse I've been witnessing, ESPECIALLY from the Left.

The right gave it good to Clinton and they'll eventually give it good to Obama although they haven't even started yet. But it's not the least bit more defamatory or shrill than the attacks have been on Reagan and both Bushes.

In fact, I can pinpoint for you when the nastiness really began - when Richard Nixon resigned from office. Before that, no president had ever resigned. Once the Left and their news media buddies believed they could actually dethrone the king by associating him with scandal, they've done it with every Republican president since.

According to the Left, Reagan invented AIDS and homelessness.
Bush I allegedly had secret meetings to withhold the release of the Iranian hostages until Carter left office - even though there was no proof.
Bush II was accused of an encyclopedia full of offenses.
And the lies and smears go on and on and on.

So, if it upsets you what you are hearing from the Right, you might as well just turn off the tv and radio until 2013. Your side started it. The right is only now catching up.

[W*GS]

It wasn't until the Dems wanted to outlaw everyone's health insurance and replace it with CommieCare that elected GOP members found any voice at all.

Puhleeze.

Are you making a reasoned comment, or just a hysterical ranting that has no bearing on the real issues?

[DivineBronco]

The thing Republicans do better than anything is see the world in black and white good and evil. It is why they have the support of most christians why they are really damn good at playing from behind.

[Fedaykin]

All this fighting between the right and the left leaves us to be easily divided and conquered by the real problem: corporatists.

As long as the donkeys and the elephants are at war with each other to distract the masses, the business interests which have them all bought out can continue to operate as the real masters.

The insurance companies and the big pharma get to continue raping and pillaging to the detriment of everyone.

The copyright conglomerates get to squeeze more money out of their bought and paid for perversion of constitutionally defined copyright.

The war profiteers get to continue to make their fortunes off the blood of innocent people.

The religious institutions get to continue to operate tax free to fill their coffers while selling lies to people.

etc. and so forth.

[footstepsfrom#27]

All i know is obama has a golden rip opportunity to do some real good for the people and his race...
And what, exactly would you propose that he do for "his race"?

[Spider]

No ****. I can't believe the nerve of these people. The pot calling the kettle black.

I cant believe the stupidity of others ......... well maybe not so much stupidity as it is the short attention span Bed wetters here ...... Freaking Kay Baily Hutchinson went after Bush harder then anyone else .......Then 9-11 Bush had a 80% approval rating , Even the New York times got behind him..........
I dont mean to be so harsh , but when I see people post stupid **** or flat out lies . It is a pet peeve ....... I just wish you bed wetters would get your point across without bull****ting so much ........ Bush went down hill with Iraq .......... Maybe you dont mean to lie , perhaps you are just focused on the final years .....you are entitled to your own opinion , you are not entitled to your own facts ........ Texican Boob and Berry are retarded , thats their excuse for being this way .........

[W*GS]

And what, exactly would you propose that he do for "his race"?

Speak English properly (no ghetto-speak or Ebonics), dress nicely (no backwards hats, droopy pants), not have 6-7 "hos" and kids by each, not have metal teeth...

You know, the ways all blacks act and look.

[Rohirrim]

No.

It's one thing to debate the details of the needed health care reform; it's another to label anything and everything in Obama's plans "socialist", or to use the phrase "death panels", or to claim Stephen Hawking would have been left to die.

Honest debate and argumentation is one thing; the tactics of the right are something else entirely - dishonest, propagandistic, and with no counterideas of their own. Compromise and concessions are impossible with that mentality, and that's the intent. Not only refuse to play the game, the right is wrecking the pieces.

Exactly! This is the point I was trying to make. I don't know how the Rightists on this board can take what is happening to Obama and compare it to Bush. Hell, as I remember it, the Dems - and especially the media - laid right down like puppy dogs while Bush shoved his agenda through. Name a press outlet that wasn't right there alongside Bush, goading this country into war in Iraq? Like Spider said, the friggin NYTimes was leading the charge! Every night Chris Matthews was sputtering out dire warnings and ABC had their big dork hovering around the WH like Eeyore, muttering threats.

I distinctly remember asking myself, "Where's the ****ing journalists? Why isn't anybody asking any questions about this ****?" - while it was happening. Which MSM outlet stood up for Plame (and I don't mean after the fact when it meant nothing), but when the **** was in the fire? All I remember from the Bush presidency is the lamest, most softball WH press conferences in history and a bunch of gutless Dems who couldn't wait to give Bush anything and everything he asked for and then stand around and get their free pens when he signed the bills. The only Dem to stand up to Bush in eight years was Dennis Kucinich.

[Rohirrim]

All this fighting between the right and the left leaves us to be easily divided and conquered by the real problem: corporatists.

As long as the donkeys and the elephants are at war with each other to distract the masses, the business interests which have them all bought out can continue to operate as the real masters.

The insurance companies and the big pharma get to continue raping and pillaging to the detriment of everyone.

The copyright conglomerates get to squeeze more money out of their bought and paid for perversion of constitutionally defined copyright.

The war profiteers get to continue to make their fortunes off the blood of innocent people.

The religious institutions get to continue to operate tax free to fill their coffers while selling lies to people.

etc. and so forth.

Unfortunately, that's probably the closest to the truth than anything else.

[Spider]

The only Dem to stand up to Bush in eight years was Dennis Kucinich.

Yep and Dennis was crucified for it ..but he didnt back down an Inch ......Mad Props to the little ****er

[tnedator]

Yep and Dennis was crucified for it ..but he didnt back down an Inch ......Mad Props to the little ****er

He is also one of the few Dems to have the balls to state what everyone know is the truth. A public option is a stepping stone to a single payer system. Most Dems have figured out that their constituents don't want a single payer system, so they are lying (President Obama as well, unfortunately) and stating that the public option is nothing to do with a single payer system.

[rastaman]

No, I wouldn't say that. I don't think it's the norm.

I would say that it has been mild compared to what the left said about Bush and the GOP candidates for the 2008 election.

I would say it was mild with how Bush was treated for 8 years in comparison to how President Clinton and Hillary were treated by Republican-conservatives from 1992-2008! I'd say the Bush Crime Family got off pretty light.

However, do expect the next Republican President to be harrassed, hated, smeared and disrepected by liberals and progressives with the same treatment Obama is now getting from Republicans and conservatives.

If you haven't noticed....Palin is getting the same treatment that Hillary received.

Such is the state of American politics.

[rastaman]

He is also one of the few Dems to have the balls to state what everyone know is the truth. A public option is a stepping stone to a single payer system. Most Dems have figured out that their constituents don't want a single payer system, so they are lying (President Obama as well, unfortunately) and stating that the public option is nothing to do with a single payer system.

Republicans and Blue Dog Stealth Republicans (Covert Dems) who are beholding to For Profit Health care Corporations are the entities selling their miserable souls to ensure single-payer doesn't take hold. However, btwn now and 8 years from now America just could catch up the rest of the Industrialize world and provide Universal Healthcare for its citizens.

I wish there was a way to allow conservative voters to keep their For Profit Private Healthcare system and let those Americans who want Single payer opt into it. This way we don't have to hear all the fearmongering and bellyaching from the conservatives.

[Spider]

He is also one of the few Dems to have the balls to state what everyone know is the truth. A public option is a stepping stone to a single payer system. Most Dems have figured out that their constituents don't want a single payer system, so they are lying (President Obama as well, unfortunately) and stating that the public option is nothing to do with a single payer system.
I didnt say Dennis was right , I just said he didnt back down , no matter how hot it got for him ........... You bedwetters have a knack for reading one thing and turning it into something else .........

[tnedator]

I would say it was mild with how Bush was treated for 8 years in comparison to how President Clinton and Hillary were treated by Republican-conservatives from 1992-2008! I'd say the Bush Crime Family got off pretty light.

However, do expect the next Republican President to be harrassed, hated, smeared and disrepected by liberals and progressives with the same treatment Obama is now getting from Republicans and conservatives.

If you haven't noticed....Palin is getting the same treatment that Hillary received.

Such is the state of American politics.

I'll agree to disagree on most of what you posted, including that Palin got the same treatment as Hillary.

Anyway, the part I do agree with is that it is the current "state of American politics" and both sides are guilty of it. This forum is a microcosm of the problem of US politics, where people just talk past each other with zero interest in being open to the other person's position.

[Spider]

I wish there was a way to allow conservative voters to keep their For Profit Private Healthcare system and let those Americans who want Single payer opt into it. This way we don't have to hear all the fearmongering and bellyaching from the conservatives.

They wont do that cause they know damn well if they let bedwetters have the option, they will go for the gov care cause it will be cheaper...........you want to see a typical conservative, Just head south , poor dumb bastards .........I had one guy down in Louisiana tell me that the Clinton good times was because of reagan , so I said well then that means the bad times Obama faces is because of Bush jr , he said no ,Obama dug this hole , I asked him how old he was , he said 36 , I said it is amazing someone as stupid as yourself made it that many years in life so far .........he got up and walked out of the truckstop . pretty rude of him I think .........

[cutthemdown]

And what, exactly would you propose that he do for "his race"?

If it was me I would push prison reform and education for inner city kids.

That's the only thing his race needs. People basically want to be successful, but some it seems to hard they give up. Or they get in some trouble and the prisons take care of the rest.

We need to totally re-think the way we punish and house criminals. I know most of this left to the states, but I still think a President could lead in this area.

Just a loser politically though so I can understand why no one cares.

All I know is that you can't let the gangs continue to run the prisons. We need prisons that are just for gangmember, once there you get nothing.

Then other prisons for non gangmembers, and non violent offenders where they get taught a trade.

I know people don;'t want to pay for criminals to have a decent life in prison, usually I would be with you on that.

IMO though something has to be changed or it will eventually ruin the country.

[cutthemdown]

Republicans and Blue Dog Stealth Republicans (Covert Dems) who are beholding to For Profit Health care Corporations are the entities selling their miserable souls to ensure single-payer doesn't take hold. However, btwn now and 8 years from now America just could catch up the rest of the Industrialize world and provide Universal Healthcare for its citizens.

I wish there was a way to allow conservative voters to keep their For Profit Private Healthcare system and let those Americans who want Single payer opt into it. This way we don't have to hear all the fearmongering and bellyaching from the conservatives.

Well thats what Obama says would be the case. The problem is that the govt could run the private people out of business, leaving only the public single payer option. If that happens then we have no choices.

[sirhcyennek81]

What's funny is the people that are pro Obama refuse to admit when the man makes a mistake. Everything this president does is historic, everything is a keepsake moment. The right needs to stop making small issues big. There is enough about Obama to criticize him without having to mock his overuse of a teleprompter or reading a speech to school kids. Thats unimportant ****, and when you need to focus the people on the president's actions on things that matter, they wont listen because they view it as more of the same. My .02.


:Broncos:

[sirhcyennek81]

Republicans and Blue Dog Stealth Republicans (Covert Dems) who are beholding to For Profit Health care Corporations are the entities selling their miserable souls to ensure single-payer doesn't take hold. However, btwn now and 8 years from now America just could catch up the rest of the Industrialize world and provide Universal Healthcare for its citizens.

I wish there was a way to allow conservative voters to keep their For Profit Private Healthcare system and let those Americans who want Single payer opt into it. This way we don't have to hear all the fearmongering and bellyaching from the conservatives.


Yes. Because if we are not like nations like Cuba, Russia or North Korea, then by God we are not like the rest of the industrialized world. The fact we have seen what "universal healthcare" becomes means we should do everything possible to avoid it, and craft something that works for us. Oh, there I go...fear mongering again...

:Broncos:

[Spider]

What's funny is the people that are pro Obama refuse to admit when the man makes a mistake. Everything this president does is historic, everything is a keepsake moment. The right needs to stop making small issues big. There is enough about Obama to criticize him without having to mock his overuse of a teleprompter or reading a speech to school kids. Thats unimportant ****, and when you need to focus the people on the president's actions on things that matter, they wont listen because they view it as more of the same. My .02.


:Broncos:

Shut the **** up . you guys defended Bush and every **** up he did ..........

[Odysseus]

Exactly! This is the point I was trying to make. I don't know how the Rightists on this board can take what is happening to Obama and compare it to Bush. Hell, as I remember it, the Dems - and especially the media - laid right down like puppy dogs while Bush shoved his agenda through. Name a press outlet that wasn't right there alongside Bush, goading this country into war in Iraq? Like Spider said, the friggin NYTimes was leading the charge! Every night Chris Matthews was sputtering out dire warnings and ABC had their big dork hovering around the WH like Eeyore, muttering threats.

I distinctly remember asking myself, "Where's the ****ing journalists? Why isn't anybody asking any questions about this ****?" - while it was happening. Which MSM outlet stood up for Plame (and I don't mean after the fact when it meant nothing), but when the **** was in the fire? All I remember from the Bush presidency is the lamest, most softball WH press conferences in history and a bunch of gutless Dems who couldn't wait to give Bush anything and everything he asked for and then stand around and get their free pens when he signed the bills. The only Dem to stand up to Bush in eight years was Dennis Kucinich.

The real parts of our conversation that we do not have a way to get our hands on are the media, congress and overpaid executives.

We are all sheep. The Right lies about having any left leaning intentions. The right plays shell games with the left. Our vote counts towards the marketing team that sells us the next ruse we are forced to choose. Our voices are reduced to sound bites, spin points and misdirection. We almost never know what the real point is.

This health discussion has been an eye opener about how entrenched our systems against government are and how little influence we really have over the corporate government that we have empowered.

[sisterhellfyre]

And what, exactly would you propose that he do for "his race"?

Which one?

[Bronco Yoda]

It just amazes me that so much of America is in the dark concerning health care (along with other things) in this country. If only more people really knew how behind we are compared to the rest of the developed world when it comes to taking care of it's people. We are so arrogant to think we have all the answers, that we do everything the best. When in fact, we are lied to, cheated, and taken advantage of by corporations, their lobbyist, and the politicians that they buy. Wake up America!

[Rohirrim]

It just amazes me that so much of America is in the dark concerning health care (along with other things) in this country. If only more people really knew how behind we are compared to the rest of the developed world when it comes to taking care of it's people. We are so arrogant to think we have all the answers, that we do everything the best. When in fact, we are lied to, cheated, and taken advantage of by corporations, their lobbyist, and the politicians that they buy. Wake up America!

That's because Americans prefer to be kept in their infantile state. I don't know if we've always been this way, but we have become deeply xenophobic and isolated. Plus, our education system is dismal. This whole Van Jones thing is an excellent example. The guy is a Marxist, or was at some point. At any rate, he has some socialist tendencies. Now, in any other democratic government in the industrialized world, people shrug and say, "So what?" He still has to put his ideas out into the marketplace and defend them, like everybody else.

But in America, we must be protected by our government from such ideas. We can not even hear them. We are too infantile. He will seduce us. We don't have the education to fight back. So instead, those who don't stay within the great swath of the "mainstream" must be tossed out and shunned. This is the "great mediocrity" that de Toqueville warned us about. Frankly, I found the guy's stuff kind of silly, but it's no different than a lot of the stuff you get on college campuses. And it's certainly less harmful than the neocon stuff that got hatched in the AEI and Heritage Foundation and THEN WAS ACTUALLY IMPLEMENTED UNDER THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION when we invaded Iraq.

So it is perfectly okay for us to hear, and implement, ideas from the Rightist fringe, but we must be protected, at all costs, from ever hearing the ideas of the Left. Maybe they will seduce us? And destroy us? Glenn Beck and his ilk cry out against the power of government while demanding that government protect us from hearing ideas they don't like. Gutless.

"I know of no country in which there is so little independence of mind and real freedom of discussion as in America."
Alexis de Tocqueville

[SPfloppy]

I would say it was mild with how Bush was treated for 8 years in comparison to how President Clinton and Hillary were treated by Republican-conservatives from 1992-2008! I'd say the Bush Crime Family got off pretty light.

However, do expect the next Republican President to be harrassed, hated, smeared and disrepected by liberals and progressives with the same treatment Obama is now getting from Republicans and conservatives.

If you haven't noticed....Palin is getting the same treatment that Hillary received.

Such is the state of American politics.

Sweet Jesus Rasta I actually agree with you. Wow!

The Clinton's did get a load of s*** from the entire country, but still managed to get some things done (tough for me to say so, but true) But you gotta give Bush a nod on taking a huge ration of s*** though. Obama is getting stalled and countered at every turn but this happens everytime

[BroncoLifer]

Obama strikes me as pretty conservative for a Democrat.

Now that is comedy gold.

[Rohirrim]

Now that is comedy gold.

Good take. Explain it.

j/k I know you can't. ;D

[Rohirrim]

The Right:

Totally committed to the laizzez-faire free market of goods and services.

Totally opposed to the free market of ideas.

[sirhcyennek81]

Shut the **** up . you guys defended Bush and every **** up he did ..........


Wow. So much for the party of "free thought" and "diversity". Heaven forbid I have my own thoughts on the subject, huh spider.


:Broncos:

[tnedator]

The Right:

Totally committed to the laizzez-faire free market of goods and services.

Totally opposed to the free market of ideas.

Free market of 'ideas' is fine, but be up front with it. Don't lie, don't cover up.

If health care reform, for instance, in the manner the President wants it is a good thing, then get it done with honesty, not deception. Don't lie and propagate fear mongering, by making statements like the pediatrician will remove your kids tonsils rather than give him a pill or order an allergy test, because the doc makes more money doing the surgery. Or, that a doctor doesn't make anything (makes a pittance) for teaching you how to control your diabetes, but a surgeon will be immediately reimbursed $50,000 for amputating a leg.

How about the lie about how you will be able to keep your current insurance if you are happy with it. Read the current House bill getting most of the attention (Waxman), the way it is written, it is virtually impossible to keep your current insurance beyond one to three years, before being switched to a 'public' option or a government approved plan. He isn't up front with that.

Lies. Misstatement of facts. You choose the how to characterize it, but none will involve being honest and up front about his 'ideas'.

[Rohirrim]

Free market of 'ideas' is fine, but be up front with it. Don't lie, don't cover up.

If health care reform, for instance, in the manner the President wants it is a good thing, then get it done with honesty, not deception. Don't lie and propagate fear mongering, by making statements like the pediatrician will remove your kids tonsils rather than give him a pill or order an allergy test, because the doc makes more money doing the surgery. Or, that a doctor doesn't make anything (makes a pittance) for teaching you how to control your diabetes, but a surgeon will be immediately reimbursed $50,000 for amputating a leg.

How about the lie about how you will be able to keep your current insurance if you are happy with it. Read the current House bill getting most of the attention (Waxman), the way it is written, it is virtually impossible to keep your current insurance beyond one to three years, before being switched to a 'public' option or a government approved plan. He isn't up front with that.

Lies. Misstatement of facts. You choose the how to characterize it, but none will involve being honest and up front about his 'ideas'.

Well, if all that is true and you are posting it on this board, then I guess they didn't do a very good job of covering it up. Your rep is (hopefully) in Congress reading all the various bills. So is mine. That's why they were elected, to represent our best interests in this republican democracy. I thought Franken gave his constituents a very good explanation of the various obstacles and possible solutions. Now I hear Obama is going to coalesce his own plan and present it to the country next week. I don't see anybody hiding anything. Maybe in the Fox News imagination where death panels and hidden agendas fuel paranoid nightmares.

[Spider]

Wow. So much for the party of "free thought" and "diversity". Heaven forbid I have my own thoughts on the subject, huh spider.


:Broncos:

you got me confused with someone that gives 2 ****s about your free speech ....... Now your Hypocrisy on the other hand ..........

[tnedator]

Well, if all that is true and you are posting it on this board, then I guess they didn't do a very good job of covering it up. Your rep is (hopefully) in Congress reading all the various bills. So is mine. That's why they were elected, to represent our best interests in this republican democracy. I thought Franken gave his constituents a very good explanation of the various obstacles and possible solutions. Now I hear Obama is going to coalesce his own plan and present it to the country next week. I don't see anybody hiding anything. Maybe in the Fox News imagination where death panels and hidden agendas fuel paranoid nightmares.

Not hiding anything:

If you like your current insurance you can keep it: LIE
Your doctor will cut out your child's tonsils rather than give him an antibiotic or send him for an allergy test, because he makes more money removing the tonsils: LIE
A surgeon is immediately reimbursed $40,000 to $50,000 for ambutating a leg: LIE

Multiple congressman (Republican and Democrat) have openly admitted that they can't and don't read the bills, that it would take "two days and require a lawyer" to understand them, and they rely on the people writing them to get it right: SCARY

[Rohirrim]

Not hiding anything:

If you like your current insurance you can keep it: LIE
Your doctor will cut out your child's tonsils rather than give him an antibiotic or send him for an allergy test, because he makes more money removing the tonsils: LIE
A surgeon is immediately reimbursed $40,000 to $50,000 for ambutating a leg: LIE

Multiple congressman (Republican and Democrat) have openly admitted that they can't and don't read the bills, that it would take "two days and require a lawyer" to understand them, and they rely on the people writing them to get it right: SCARY

You'll have to provide links for those claims. I never saw them.

[TexanBob]

Originally Posted by TexanBob
It wasn't until the Dems wanted to outlaw everyone's health insurance and replace it with CommieCare that elected GOP members found any voice at all.

Puhleeze.

Are you making a reasoned comment, or just a hysterical ranting that has no bearing on the real issues?

http://apnews.myway.com//article/20090906/D9AI0NJ80.html

Health and Human Services Secretary Kathleen Sebelius said last month that a government alternative to private insurance is "not the essential element" in revamping the system to guarantee coverage for all and try to curb unsustainable costs.

Liberals - many of whom want to do away with the private health insurance industry and replace it with Medicare for all - were furious.

See, Wigs? I'm not making this up. Liberal Democrats want to do away with private health insurance and force everyone (but themselves) onto one health care system. It's not hysterical ranting, it's fact.

[tnedator]

You'll have to provide links for those claims. I never saw them.

Try google. In the past when you have posted "provide links" I have done so, with links and quotes, and you then ignore them.

See, you simply spew rhetoric, but then when presented with facts (and I have already posted links to President Obama talking about the amputation and tonsils), you simply ignore them and go back to rhetoric spewing and reading down the list of Democratic talking points.

[TexanBob]

It just amazes me that so much of America is in the dark concerning health care (along with other things) in this country. If only more people really knew how behind we are compared to the rest of the developed world when it comes to taking care of it's people. We are so arrogant to think we have all the answers, that we do everything the best.

Yeah, I guess that's why every king, tyrant and potentate that gets a life-threatening illness comes to America for treatment, because we arrogant pricks are so far behind the curve when it comes to health care.

Why, oh why, do they not avail themselves of the great health care in Cuba or China, I just don't know.

[Rohirrim]

Try google. In the past when you have posted "provide links" I have done so, with links and quotes, and you then ignore them.

See, you simply spew rhetoric, but then when presented with facts (and I have already posted links to President Obama talking about the amputation and tonsils), you simply ignore them and go back to rhetoric spewing and reading down the list of Democratic talking points.

Not true. I remember the claim in his campaign that people wouldn't have to give up their own insurance. I was caucusing for Ron Paul at the time so I wasn't paying a whole lot of attention to Obama. I don't see that claim becoming a lie. I find it highly doubtful that whatever bill that comes out is going to replace United Healthcare, Blue Cross, Cigna, Aetna, etc. Since the announcement out of the WH today is that the public option is on the table, I'm guessing there is even a much less danger of that happening. As far as the tonsils thing goes, I guarantee you a lot of doctors out there make decisions based on their profitability. The leg amputation thing I've heard, but haven't seen the original source.

[TexanBob]

What I don't understand is why Roh, Spider, Rastaman, W*GS, LABF and so many capitalism-haters and America-haters on the Left don't move to Cuba or Vietnam where they would be so much happier than trying to live amongst the likes of us neandrathals.

Could we maybe get a discount rate and let you guys emigrate there en mass? I'm sure Fidel would welcome you fellow-travellers with open arms. I'll be glad to chip in the first $100 (of course, you might not like taking money from and evil capitalist).

I mean, really, you can spout Communist Party talking points down there all you like and never have to deal with anyone disagreeing with you. It would be like nirvana for you guys.

[Spider]

What I don't understand is why Roh, Spider, Rastaman, W*GS, LABF and so many capitalism-haters and America-haters on the Left don't move to Cuba or Vietnam where they would be so much happier than trying to live amongst the likes of us neandrathals.

Could we maybe get a discount rate and let you guys emigrate there en mass? I'm sure Fidel would welcome you fellow-travellers with open arms. I'll be glad to chip in the first $100 (of course, you might not like taking money from and evil capitalist).

I mean, really, you can spout Communist Party talking points down there all you like and never have to deal with anyone disagreeing with you. It would be like nirvana for you guys.
I will make yo ua deal Texican Boob , I will go to Cuba , If you can beat me down ......Deal ?
you win I leave , I win , your punk ass goes to Mexico where there is very little government interference ............ Do we have a deal ?

[tnedator]

Not true. I remember the claim in his campaign that people wouldn't have to give up their own insurance. I was caucusing for Ron Paul at the time so I wasn't paying a whole lot of attention to Obama. I don't see that claim becoming a lie. I find it highly doubtful that whatever bill that comes out is going to replace United Healthcare, Blue Cross, Cigna, Aetna, etc. Since the announcement out of the WH today is that the public option is on the table, I'm guessing there is even a much less danger of that happening. As far as the tonsils thing goes, I guarantee you a lot of doctors out there make decisions based on their profitability. The leg amputation thing I've heard, but haven't seen the original source.

I posted it (link on the amputation thing) a couple weeks ago after you or Rastaman (pretty sure it was you), said "provide links". You can search here or search google. I don't like having my time wasted when someone posts "provide links" and when I do, they don't respond.

As to keeping your insurance. The current bill being pushed in the house, the Waxman bill, which people are going to the Town Hall's and complaining about, states that if anything about your current policy changes (premium increase, deductible increase, etc.), then you will be required by law to choose a 'government approved' plan. Basically, since nearly every year, people's insurance plans change in some way, they will all have to move to 'government approved' plans within 1-3 years of that bill being introduced.

Now, the kicker is that what will be required to be 'government approved' is not specified. It isn't even known if private insurance companies will be able to be 'government approved' and still be viable entities.

This is the part that many of you guys don't get. Those of us that have concerns, have real concerns, based on what has been put on paper to date. While the senators have talked about producing a bill that varies some from the main house bill, it is still unknown. So, all we can go on is what has been produced and is getting the most backing in the house, and there are major areas of concern in that bill.

I have not met a single person that doesn't believe that something has to be done to reform the current state of health care, the issue is that some of us have real concerns about the details, and the fact that what the President is stating is not reflected in the bill (forgetting obvious misstatements, like about the amputation).

A prime example is abortion. Putting aside any difference people might have about it, the President states that the public option will not pay for abortion. However, there was initially a clause in the bill to specifically state that abortions would not be paid for. Then, in committee it was removed. Then, the Republicans proposed an amendment to the bill to re-include the language that would prevent abortions being paid for and it was voted down 100% by the Democrats in the committee.

So, the President says, "abortions will not be paid for" and by the 'letter' of the current bill, that is true, sort of, in that it is not specifically spelled out that they will be paid for, but instead like all coverage, it will be decided by a panel or some other "after the bill is passed" committee. However, since the President is saying "abortions will not be paid for" then why did the democrats refuse to re-introduce the language that was in the bill to begin with?

Personally, I don't have a strong opinion either way on whether the insurance should cover abortions, but that isn't the point. The point is that the President is 'campaigning' for health care and he and others are attacking those that go to Town Hall meetings and saying they are not happy with the bill being pushed, but the law that has been proposed is not consistent with the statements being spoken in front of cameras.

Excuse any typos, I don't have the time to go back and proof this.

[tnedator]

What I don't understand is why Roh, Spider, Rastaman, W*GS, LABF and so many capitalism-haters and America-haters on the Left don't move to Cuba or Vietnam where they would be so much happier than trying to live amongst the likes of us neandrathals.

Could we maybe get a discount rate and let you guys emigrate there en mass? I'm sure Fidel would welcome you fellow-travellers with open arms. I'll be glad to chip in the first $100 (of course, you might not like taking money from and evil capitalist).

I mean, really, you can spout Communist Party talking points down there all you like and never have to deal with anyone disagreeing with you. It would be like nirvana for you guys.

Same reason Redford and the other morons that claimed they would leave the US if Bush was elected, didn't leave. Whether for capitalistic reasons or nationalistic provide, even people with vastly opposing views still love their country.

[W*GS]

What I don't understand is why Roh, Spider, Rastaman, W*GS, LABF and so many capitalism-haters and America-haters on the Left [...]

I don't hate capitalism, and I don't hate America.

I detest right-wingers whose ideas of contributions to political discourse consist of nothing but smears, slurs, racist attacks, and scorched-earth tactics.

Temper tantrums are barely tolerated from two-year-olds; why do adult Republicans think their identical behavior is acceptable?

[Bronco Yoda]

Yeah, I guess that's why every king, tyrant and potentate that gets a life-threatening illness comes to America for treatment, because we arrogant pricks are so far behind the curve when it comes to health care.

Why, oh why, do they not avail themselves of the great health care in Cuba or China, I just don't know.

If you have that kind of money, America is a good choice to see top specialists because here's where the money is at. Of course Europe is also a hot spot for the rich a famous because of their experimental proceedures.... and that's a whole other discussion unto itself.

Pretty simple stuff here.

And.....I never used the word Prick. Thats all you.

And yes we have become too arrogant and stupid all at the same time in this country. Self awareness is needed for us to change. We're a great country but we can be so much better. Get out of Texas and do some travel and you'll learn something.

And we are way behind the curve in affordable health care. Open your eyes.

I'm a registered Independent so I don't waste my time arguing issues based on political affiliation.

[barryr]

Hmm, the left for the last 8 years used any reason, made up if had to, to use to believe that Bush should be impeached and trash any member of his admin., not to mention Palin, but apparently that was just legit politics and no smear campaigns going on. Obama hires a bunch of tax cheats and someone who not only called himself a communist, but also race baits and even wrote a rap song in 2003 using anti-american slogans in it, and the left is just shocked an upset that it's even being reported. What a world, a fantasy one, they live in.

[W*GS]

Hmm, the left for the last 8 years used any reason, made up if had to, to use to believe that Bush should be impeached [...]

Starting a war on utterly false pretenses that has cost untold billions and killed untold thousands are good reasons for impeachment.

Your vision is obstructed by Bush's pubes, since you're on your knees in front of him.

[sirhcyennek81]

Starting a war on utterly false pretenses that has cost untold billions and killed untold thousands are good reasons for impeachment.

Your vision is obstructed by Bush's pubes, since you're on your knees in front of him.


Clinton used the same "pretenses" to justify the bombing of iraq, causing millions in damage and killing hundreds. Or is it only a pretense when a republican is doing it? We can play the partisan game all day, What does it get anyone?

:Broncos:

[Rohirrim]

What I don't understand is why Roh, Spider, Rastaman, W*GS, LABF and so many capitalism-haters and America-haters on the Left don't move to Cuba or Vietnam where they would be so much happier than trying to live amongst the likes of us neandrathals.

Could we maybe get a discount rate and let you guys emigrate there en mass? I'm sure Fidel would welcome you fellow-travellers with open arms. I'll be glad to chip in the first $100 (of course, you might not like taking money from and evil capitalist).

I mean, really, you can spout Communist Party talking points down there all you like and never have to deal with anyone disagreeing with you. It would be like nirvana for you guys.

What I don't understand is how somebody as stupid as you can type. I'm guessing your attendant got you some voice activation program.

[W*GS]

Clinton used the same "pretenses" to justify the bombing of iraq, causing millions in damage and killing hundreds. Or is it only a pretense when a republican is doing it? We can play the partisan game all day, What does it get anyone?

Clinton's fackups don't excuse Bush's - and Bush's have been truly stupendous in scale and scope.

Obama would be completely swamped if he did nothing but try to repair the damage Bush did.

[Bronx33]

Clinton's fackups don't excuse Bush's - and Bush's have been truly stupendous in scale and scope.

Obama would be completely swamped if he did nothing but try to repair the damage Bush did.

So obama has a ready made lefty excuse for failure?

[Spider]

Clinton used the same "pretenses" to justify the bombing of iraq, causing millions in damage and killing hundreds. Or is it only a pretense when a republican is doing it? We can play the partisan game all day, What does it get anyone?

:Broncos:

you are so full of **** ........ I like you dude , but i will call a spade a spade ,I challenge you to name 1 city Clinton Bombed In Iraq ..........He didnt . he bombed targets ....... Name 1 country Clinton Invaded ... go ahead just 1 will do ......

[W*GS]

So obama has a ready made lefty excuse for failure?

What was Bush's excuse for being such a colossal failure, the worst President we've ever had?

He was drunk?

You right-wingers make me puke.

[sirhcyennek81]

you are so full of **** ........ I like you dude , but i will call a spade a spade ,I challenge you to name 1 city Clinton Bombed In Iraq ..........He didnt . he bombed targets ....... Name 1 country Clinton Invaded ... go ahead just 1 will do ......


Kosovo. To date, UN forces are still there.

As for cities in Iraq that were hit in 4 days of bombing in december, 1998. Basra and Nasyirah.

I like you too, Spider. ;)


:Broncos:

[Spider]

Kosovo. To date, UN forces are still there.

As for cities in Iraq that were hit in 4 days of bombing in december, 1998. Basra and Nasyirah.

I like you too, Spider. ;)


:Broncos:

we didnt invade , we went in and stop the genocide , and left ........that would be like saying Bush Sr invaded Iraq , when Iraq invaded Kuwait .........

[sirhcyennek81]

we didnt invade , we went in and stop the genocide , and left ........that would be like saying Bush Sr invaded Iraq , when Iraq invaded Kuwait .........


Usually the definition of sending troops into a hostile territory to secure predetermined goals is invasion.

And troops from the UN and Nato are still there.

:Broncos:

[rastaman]

Hmm, the left for the last 8 years used any reason, made up if had to, to use to believe that Bush should be impeached and trash any member of his admin., not to mention Palin, but apparently that was just legit politics and no smear campaigns going on. Obama hires a bunch of tax cheats and someone who not only called himself a communist, but also race baits and even wrote a rap song in 2003 using anti-american slogans in it, and the left is just shocked an upset that it's even being reported. What a world, a fantasy one, they live in.

How did the "Right" behave towards Clinton for 8 long years!!! Speaking of Palin......look how the Right wingers treated Hillary from 1992-2008! Sorry, Palin will be treated by Democrats and Liberals the same way Hillary was treated by Republicans and conservatives.

Perhaps Bush II wasn't respected b/c he was selected by the Supreme Court...although in our constitution, the Supreme didn't have prescedent to do so. Perhaps Bush was disrepected bc/ he lied America into a war and illegal occupation into Iraq. There were and are an endless amount of reasons why Bush wasn't respected and loathed so greatly.

[Spider]

Usually the definition of sending troops into a hostile territory to secure predetermined goals is invasion.

And troops from the UN and Nato are still there.

:Broncos:

Nice try , but we went in to stop a crime ... Much like police do .......
but you dug a deep hole , I wont bring up the fact that Iraq wasnt doing anything when Junior went off the deep end and invaded

[tnedator]

Man, talk about kool aid drinking left wing nuts. No wonder you guys thought Jones was a good appointment.

[Rohirrim]

Man, talk about kool aid drinking left wing nuts. No wonder you guys thought Jones was a good appointment.

You fascists just don't get it do you? A political litmus test is anti-American. There is no law in this country against holding whatever political views you wish to hold. Do you guys really not get this? It's what the Bill of Rights is all about. Every American is allowed to hold whatever opinions they wish. Every American is allowed to hold whatever beliefs, religious or otherwise, that they wish. It's guaranteed. It's protected.

Glenn Beck, Fox News, and all you rightard sheep are thought police. You just collectively used fear mongering and political terror to deprive another American of the right to serve. Wake the **** up. You represent the opposite of what this country is about. If anybody should get the **** out, it's you.

[rastaman]

Man, talk about kool aid drinking left wing nuts. No wonder you guys thought Jones was a good appointment.

Yeah sure Tned....who would have ever Thunked the Supreme Court "Selecting" GW Bush for the WH woul eventually usher the dismantling of the GOP.

[tnedator]

You fascists just don't get it do you? A political litmus test is anti-American. There is no law in this country against holding whatever political views you wish to hold. Do you guys really not get this? It's what the Bill of Rights is all about. Every American is allowed to hold whatever opinions they wish. Every American is allowed to hold whatever beliefs, religious or otherwise, that they wish. It's guaranteed. It's protected.

Glenn Beck, Fox News, and all you rightard sheep are thought police. You just collectively used fear mongering and political terror to deprive another American of the right to serve. Wake the **** up. You represent the opposite of what this country is about. If anybody should get the **** out, it's you.

He's a cook. He believes that the WTC is a government conspiracy, where Bush did it or knowingly let it happen, as a reason to go into Iraq. That the pentagon was hit by a missile, and that the "plane hitting it" was a cover up story.

He has called white environmentalists racist and other very 'nice' things, and has talked about using the environmental movement as a tool to get reparations and address other race issues.

The list goes on and on. It has nothing to do with a single ideology that he holds. It is about him being a far, left nut job who should not be appointed by the President.

And, the White Houses defense is that they didn't know about these positions that Jones held, and that what he did before joining the administration, even if only a few months before, doesn't matter.

Come on. I know you aren't naive, so therefore you simply blindly defend due to your ideology.