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View Full Version : what we thought about orton is right


tsiguy96
09-03-2009, 12:32 PM
hes not comfortable having so much time behind the line.
http://www.milehighreport.com/2009/9/3/1014148/sanity-break

used to chicagos 3 step drop, if his read wasnt there hed toss it, here he needs to learn that he has time to go through his progressions and find the open guy.

OBF1
09-03-2009, 12:35 PM
Never thought of that. Good read

TonyR
09-03-2009, 12:43 PM
It's nice to read an analysis of the situation that sticks to some facts and provides some insight into the situation. I completely understand when some fans are still hanging on to the argument that Jay Cutler shouldn't have been traded - it bothers the heck out of them. I think that they're got every right to complain. Even so, continuing to repeat a story that Orton can't throw a 25 yard pass when he's already thrown a 40 yards TD pass is pointless. For what it's worth - being angry about on thing isn't a license to keep claiming something that's just false.

broncofan7
09-03-2009, 12:56 PM
Kyle Orton simply does not provide a downfield passing threat to any defense---if he is indeed our starter--prepare to see many defenders near the LOS unless McD runs us out of 4 wide.........too bad Simms is hurt....

Traveler
09-03-2009, 12:58 PM
Here comes Brian Griese Part II. It's gonna be a long season.

Lolad
09-03-2009, 01:05 PM
Kyle Orton simply does not provide a downfield passing threat to any defense---if he is indeed our starter--prepare to see many defenders near the LOS unless McD runs us out of 4 wide.........too bad Simms is hurt....

even if it's 4 wide he's still throwing short in the heart of the defense. What should be said is that he can't throw a ball more then 10 yards with any type of accuracy.

I don't know how long it's going to take him to get comfortable. He forces throws with no pressure around him.

BroncoBuff
09-03-2009, 01:05 PM
Sounds like more excuses to me ... he's having trouble because there's TOO MUCH time? :~ohyah!:

Chris Simms hasn't had any problems, he threw a 52 yard touchdown pass after a long, beautiful scramble ;D

Brandstater looked pretty good too, for a rookie quarterback anyway.

bendog
09-03-2009, 01:06 PM
http://www.footballsfuture.com/2005/prospects/kyle_orton.html

uncanny.

and,
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/2005/draft/players/60508.html

Can he back them out of 8 in the box? Of course, no team put 8 in the box against cutler. Even when Den was putting anyone out there at RB

BroncoMan4ever
09-03-2009, 01:08 PM
Here comes Brian Griese Part II. It's gonna be a long season.

Brian Griese got us to the playoffs. the last cannon armed QB we had couldn't do that.

footstepsfrom#27
09-03-2009, 01:11 PM
Wow. That's a real stretch. Let me get this straight; Orton, who played only two seasons out of four in Chicago, is so rigidly steeped in Chicago's system that an entire training camp and 3 preseason games is not enough to enable him to seek out a target downfield without dumping the ball off to his 3rd or 4th option? That's about the weirdest thing I've heard yet on this situation.

But let's say we take his word for that just for argument's sake.

If this is true, it makes me feel MUCH worse about him. If he can't adapt to throwing a pass 15 yards downfield after 6 weeks of camp, practices and games, when will he adapt? Can he at all? This artical makes him sound pretty dumb, and despite my opinion of his physical skills, I don't think the guy is dumb. In all honesty, this sounds like an excuse for something. We all know he can throw a pass 40 yards since he's done it, but I have another theory that seems more plausible. He knows he can't evade the rush and he has trouble hanging in the pocket or sliding around because he panics a bit and settles for the first open guy he sees. That theory may not be right, but it sounds every bit as possible as the idea that he can't adjust to having to much time to throw. If we heard a running back say he couldn't gain yardage because his holes were to big, or a pass rusher complain that he couldn't get to the QB because the offensive tackle made him uncomfortable because he was to easy to get past, we'd all call BS in an instant.

Think about it...

BroncoBuff
09-03-2009, 01:16 PM
Kyle Orton simply does not provide a downfield passing threat to any defense---if he is indeed our starter--prepare to see many defenders near the LOS unless McD runs us out of 4 wide.........too bad Simms is hurt....

Good post ... hopefully Simms will start against the Bungles, and my pimping will be put to the test ::)


Here's an interesting part of that article:

Josh McDaniels studied Orton extensively before bringing him in. What he saw was a player who was 21-12 as a starter despite throwing nearly as many interceptions (25) as touchdown passes (27) ... He also saw that Orton was strong in one critical area in which Cutler and the Broncos struggled last season: red-zone turnovers.

What a heavy rationalization there .... those numbers are obviously relevant, even impressive. But at what point does the past give way to the present? Through three pre-season games now, he has what, three red-zone turnovers? Plus one RZ TO in the scrimmage, plus the dropped INT in the end zone against Seattle.

Something doesn't add up here. It seems Josh is so heavily invested in Orton, he's gonna stubbornly ride that horse 'til it drops. Can't say I blame him ... but at what point do you acknowledge the reality that Simms has been VERY good thus far, and none of these excuses apply to him?


We do know one thing for sure: The promise the QB job would be an "open competition" was not true.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
09-03-2009, 01:17 PM
Kyle Orton simply does not provide a downfield passing threat to any defense---if he is indeed our starter--prepare to see many defenders near the LOS unless McD runs us out of 4 wide.........too bad Simms is hurt....

http://thecreme.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/picture-50_2larger.jpg

peacepipe
09-03-2009, 01:18 PM
Wow. That's a real stretch. Let me get this straight; Orton, who played only two seasons out of four in Chicago, is so rigidly steeped in Chicago's system that an entire training camp and 3 preseason games is not enough to enable him to seek out a target downfield without dumping the ball off to his 3rd or 4th option? That's about the weirdest thing I've heard yet on this situation.

But let's say we take his word for that just for argument's sake.

If this is true, it makes me feel MUCH worse about him. If he can't adapt to throwing a pass 15 yards downfield after 6 weeks of camp, practices and games, when will he adapt? Can he at all? This artical makes him sound pretty dumb, and despite my opinion of his physical skills, I don't think the guy is dumb. In all honesty, this sounds like an excuse for something. We all know he can throw a pass 40 yards since he's done it, but I have another theory that seems more plausible. He knows he can't evade the rush and he has trouble hanging in the pocket or sliding arouond because he panics a bit and settle for the first open guy he sees. That theory may not be right, but it sounds every bit as possible as the idea that he can't adjust to having to much time to throw. If we heard a running back say he couldn't gain yardage because his holes were to big, or a pass rusher complain that he couldn't get to the QB because the offensive tackle made him uncomfortable because he was to easy to get past, we'd all call BS in an instant.

Think about it...
very well put.

kamakazi_kal
09-03-2009, 01:19 PM
It's nice to read an analysis of the situation that sticks to some facts and provides some insight into the situation. I completely understand when some fans are still hanging on to the argument that Jay Cutler shouldn't have been traded - it bothers the heck out of them. I think that they're got every right to complain. Even so, continuing to repeat a story that Orton can't throw a 25 yard pass when he's already thrown a 40 yards TD pass is pointless. For what it's worth - being angry about on thing isn't a license to keep claiming something that's just false.

15yd pass and 25yd after catch.

tsiguy96
09-03-2009, 01:19 PM
Wow. That's a real stretch. Let me get this straight; Orton, who played only two seasons out of four in Chicago, is so rigidly steeped in Chicago's system that an entire training camp and 3 preseason games is not enough to enable him to seek out a target downfield without dumping the ball off to his 3rd or 4th option? That's about the weirdest thing I've heard yet on this situation.

But let's say we take his word for that just for argument's sake.

If this is true, it makes me feel MUCH worse about him. If he can't adapt to throwing a pass 15 yards downfield after 6 weeks of camp, practices and games, when will he adapt? Can he at all? This artical makes him sound pretty dumb, and despite my opinion of his physical skills, I don't think the guy is dumb. In all honesty, this sounds like an excuse for something. We all know he can throw a pass 40 yards since he's done it, but I have another theory that seems more plausible. He knows he can't evade the rush and he has trouble hanging in the pocket or sliding arouond because he panics a bit and settle for the first open guy he sees. That theory may not be right, but it sounds every bit as possible as the idea that he can't adjust to having to much time to throw. If we heard a running back say he couldn't gain yardage because his holes were to big, or a pass rusher complain that he couldn't get to the QB because the offensive tackle made him uncomfortable because he was to easy to get past, we'd all call BS in an instant.

Think about it...

hes been on bears roster for 4 years, meaning he practiced it all 4 years. starting or not, thatss what he played. to ask him to go from a 3 step drop to a 5 step or shotgun and go through progressions is gonna take longer than just a few weeks of camp. but given his scouting reports, i dont think hell ever be able to adjust to the long ball, unless he can improve it this year, and he has every weapon necessary to do that. i hope brandstater can step up however, as unlikely as it is

oubronco
09-03-2009, 01:21 PM
Here comes Brian Griese Part II. It's gonna be a long season.

ROFL! You guys are terrible

BroncoBuff
09-03-2009, 01:24 PM
15yd pass and 25yd after catch.

Orton's yac numbers have been huge (especially seeing th best yac WR in the league hasn't played).

Can a QB be somehow credited with yac yards? I'm thinking no , but ... ???

tsiguy96
09-03-2009, 01:24 PM
Josh is kinda lucky he steered away from his promise the QB job would be an "open competition" ... remember he hurriedly named Orton #1 the next day?

Had he not done that, Simms would be #1 now, no doubt. Way way WAY too many interceptions from Orton.

he had to name someone or you end up with QB situations like cleveland or SF, where your starter is STILL splitting reps with the 2nd string guy. you cant develop a rhythm with your team if you only get half hte reps with them.

bendog
09-03-2009, 01:27 PM
Come on. It's a homer report. but that's ok. bottom line Orton is, and always was, a system qb. Guess what, so is Drew Breeze, and he was in the same college system.


Orton was in a pretty dull system in Chicago. He's known for being accurate in the short game and a good reader of defenses.

He's had less than a preseason to get the scheme down. If Den finishes 4-12, he may get a beatdown with the fans though

Vegas_Bronco
09-03-2009, 01:29 PM
Sports Illustrated had Orton ranked 16th in the league as far as projections go for QB's....

Everyone is gifted. Some open the package sooner.

footstepsfrom#27
09-03-2009, 01:31 PM
hes been on bears roster for 4 years, meaning he practiced it all 4 years. starting or not, thatss what he played. to ask him to go from a 3 step drop to a 5 step or shotgun and go through progressions is gonna take longer than just a few weeks of camp. but given his scouting reports, i dont think hell ever be able to adjust to the long ball, unless he can improve it this year, and he has every weapon necessary to do that. i hope brandstater can step up however, as unlikely as it is
Don't you think he practiced throwing mid range or even deep passes in the Bears practices? In all honesty, have you EVER heard this excuse used for any QB on any team? Truthfully...this is probably the silliest thing I've ever heard for an excuse. What was he doing for 4 years at Purdue? I'm pretty sure if he should be able to drop back 5 steps after having 6 weeks of camp to practice this.

If he can't...what the hell is he doing as the starter?

tsiguy96
09-03-2009, 01:31 PM
Come on. It's a homer report. but that's ok. bottom line Orton is, and always was, a system qb. Guess what, so is Drew Breeze, and he was in the same college system.


Orton was in a pretty dull system in Chicago. He's known for being accurate in the short game and a good reader of defenses.

He's had less than a preseason to get the scheme down. If Den finishes 4-12, he may get a beatdown with the fans though

brees is incredibly accurate and intelligent and can bomb it deep with extreme accuracy. he imo should be in talks for best QB in the league. but then again, i never did care for the term "system" qb when people say it like its a bad thing. if a system puts its players into the best position they can be in towin, then theres nothing wrong with it.

tsiguy96
09-03-2009, 01:32 PM
Don't you think he practiced throwing mid range or even deep passes in the Bears practices? In all honesty, have you EVER heard this excuse used for any QB on any team? Truthfully...this is probably the silliest excuse I've ever heard for. What was he doing for 4 years at Purdue? I'm pretty sure if he should be able to drop back 5 steps after having 6 weeks of camp to practice this.

If he can't...what the hell is he doing as the starter?

dont ask me i dont make the decisions, but then again we havent even seen a regular season game to see if these preseason tactics are what we will do or not. its a system change to one thats extremely difficult for QBs and its taking him time to embrace it, why is that so hard to believe?

TheReverend
09-03-2009, 01:33 PM
That's the silliest explanation for his play possible. Everything he's asked to do here, he did in Purdue and was even more steeped in THAT system than he was in Chicago's.

Evenrude
09-03-2009, 01:35 PM
It's nice to read an analysis of the situation that sticks to some facts and provides some insight into the situation. I completely understand when some fans are still hanging on to the argument that Jay Cutler shouldn't have been traded - it bothers the heck out of them. I think that they're got every right to complain. Even so, continuing to repeat a story that Orton can't throw a 25 yard pass when he's already thrown a 40 yards TD pass is pointless. For what it's worth - being angry about on thing isn't a license to keep claiming something that's just false.

This.

footstepsfrom#27
09-03-2009, 01:36 PM
dont ask me i dont make the decisions, but then again we havent even seen a regular season game to see if these preseason tactics are what we will do or not. its a system change to one thats extremely difficult for QBs and its taking him time to embrace it, why is that so hard to believe?
Well according to Orton himself, what we've seen so far has nothing to do with this being a preseason thing that's the result of strategy or saving the real offense for the regular season. He's already told us why we're seeing this...and it's because he can't adjust. Once again...if he can't adjust, why is he the starter? Didn't we hear from McD from the very start that Orton had a great grasp of the system? How is that statement even remotely true if he can't drop back 5 steps...the most basic thing he has to do?

If he can't adjust to dropping back, then why isn't Simms or even Brandstater starting?

Rulon Velvet Jones
09-03-2009, 01:39 PM
Well according to Orton himself, what we've seen so far has nothing to do with this being a preseason thing that's the result of strategy or saving the real offense for the regular season. He's already told us why we're seeing this...and it's because he can't adjust. Once again...if he can't adjust, why is he the starter? Didn't we hear from McD from the very start that Orton had a great grasp of the system? How is that statement even remotely true if he can't drop back 5 steps...the most basic thing he has to do?

If he can't adjust to dropping back, then why isn't Simms or even Brandstater starting?

I think you're reading too much into a few quotes.

Karenin
09-03-2009, 01:41 PM
That makes sense, you need a decisive #1 ... I just think he should've waited until after a game or two to decide. I firmly believe he chose the wrong guy.

yea. we get it. you don't have to post the same crap 5 times in each thread. oh and wipe your chin, you've got sperm all over it.

footstepsfrom#27
09-03-2009, 01:41 PM
I think you're reading too much into a few quotes.
What quotes? If Orton says he's got to much time to throw and that's why he can't get used to dropping back an extra two steps and throwing it downfield, I think that's all the quote I need to recognize BS when I see it. If Cutler said this crap, this board would be howling with laughter.

Beantown Bronco
09-03-2009, 01:42 PM
Josh McDaniels studied Orton extensively before bringing him in. What he saw was a player who was 21-12 as a starter despite throwing nearly as many interceptions (25) as touchdown passes (27) ... He also saw that Orton was strong in one critical area in which Cutler and the Broncos struggled last season: red-zone turnovers.

Wait.....what!?!

He saw "a player who was 21-12 as a starter despite throwing nearly as many interceptions (25) as touchdown passes (27)."

Isn't he making an argument here for why he should've traded for EVERYONE ELSE on the Bears roster, because they obviously were more responsible for the record than the QB was? How is this possibly an argument IN FAVOR of the QB?

atomicbloke
09-03-2009, 01:43 PM
This reminds me of the time my niece told me that she flunked her exam because it was too easy.... she was expecting hard questions, and was thoroughly confused when they were easy, and didn't know how to answer them......

TheReverend
09-03-2009, 01:45 PM
Josh McDaniels studied Orton extensively before bringing him in. What he saw was a player who was 21-12 as a starter despite throwing nearly as many interceptions (25) as touchdown passes (27) ... He also saw that Orton was strong in one critical area in which Cutler and the Broncos struggled last season: red-zone turnovers.

Wait.....what!?!

He saw "a player who was 21-12 as a starter despite throwing nearly as many interceptions (25) as touchdown passes (27)."

Isn't he making an argument here for why he should've traded for EVERYONE ELSE on the Bears roster, because they obviously were more responsible for the record than the QB was? How is this possibly an argument IN FAVOR of the QB?

It's not. This is hands down THE dumbest article I've ever read from start to finish.

The sequel:

Orton's struggling because he's not used to throwing to talented receivers!

bendog
09-03-2009, 01:50 PM
I would not say Breese can bomb it deep. It's Sean Payton's scheme. Breese will read the safeties early, and launch it if they give it to him. He has a very quick release. Watching the saints week in and out, I think Breese actually got a stronger arm after the injury ... wasn't it Warren who flopped on him? I've only seen Orton maybe five times in the nfl. I'm not sure where I'd rate his arm, but my impression is it's not up there with even Breese's. And remember one reason the Bolts shipped him out was the perception that he lacked the physical skills to make plays on his own.

And imo that's still right. cutler has the ability to do a helicopter on 3 and 7. breese does too, but orton is immobile. But Breese cannot break out of the pocket, roll right, and launch it 50 yards against his body to the left. The Duke and Cutler could. That's the difference. It's the mobility and the arm. Orton really has neither. Think Pennington.

footstepsfrom#27
09-03-2009, 01:51 PM
Maybe he's struggling because the coaching is to good.

TonyR
09-03-2009, 01:53 PM
...If we heard a running back say he couldn't gain yardage because his holes were to big, or a pass rusher complain that he couldn't get to the QB because the offensive tackle made him uncomfortable because he was to easy to get past, we'd all call BS in an instant.

I agree that this reasoning doesn't explain away all of Orton's deficiencies, and I also agree we'd call BS in the hypotheticals you provided above. I don't agree, however, that these are good analogies. The way a RB runs, and the scheme in which he runs, doesn't change based on the size of the holes created for him to run in. Same with the pass rusher: he's doesn't have to change what he does in this scenario. In Orton's case he's being asked to do things completely different within a different system. Unlike the hypothetical RB and pass rusher Orton does have to change. Again, as I said above, this does not excuse him. But I think this is a legit point that this is a change the QB has to deal with and overcome. That and your analogies suck.

bendog
09-03-2009, 01:53 PM
I actually think McDaniels understands his system and it's a good one.

He obviously wasn't emotionally mature enough to be an nfl head coach though. I don't understand why anyone thinks one preseason is enough to learn a new system, with wr's having to make the same reads qb's do, learning to adjust to new wr's....one of whom isn't in camp

TheReverend
09-03-2009, 01:57 PM
Dear Article's Author,

http://thelifestream.net/forums/images/smilies/1199834313745.jpg

Sincerely,
Me

footstepsfrom#27
09-03-2009, 01:59 PM
I agree that this reasoning doesn't explain away all of Orton's deficiencies, and I also agree we'd call BS in the hypotheticals you provided above.
Exactly
I don't agree, however, that these are good analogies. The way a RB runs, and the scheme in which he runs, doesn't change based on the size of the holes created for him to run in. Same with the pass rusher: he's doesn't have to change what he does in this scenario. In Orton's case he's being asked to do things completely different within a different system. Unlike the hypothetical RB and pass rusher Orton does have to change. Again, as I said above, this does not excuse him. But I think this is a legit point that this is a change the QB has to deal with and overcome. That and your analogies suck.
The bottom line is he says he has to much time to throw the ball. If you're telling me he can't figure out how to drop back two extra steps after 6 weeks of being the starting QB...I submit we need to demote him to the bench and stick somebody in there who can do this incredibly difficult task.

DBroncos4life
09-03-2009, 02:00 PM
Isn't the QB "clock" something they teach you in pee wee league?

footstepsfrom#27
09-03-2009, 02:01 PM
This reminds me of the time my niece told me that she flunked her exam because it was too easy.... she was expecting hard questions, and was thoroughly confused when they were easy, and didn't know how to answer them......
Well it's a good thing Kuper's hurt, maybe that will help Orton. Or perhaps we could trade Clady and Harris for two crappy OT's and that might turn Orton into Manning.

footstepsfrom#27
09-03-2009, 02:02 PM
Isn't the QB "clock" something they teach you in pee wee league?
Sure but maybe he didn't play pee wee...ever think of that? :rofl:

Steve Prefontaine
09-03-2009, 02:07 PM
It's kind of silly that people are still discussing Orton as if he might be a good NFL QB.

If he was good, Chicago wouldn't have traded him (and 3 high draft picks) to get another QB...let alone a QB with the baggage Cutler was carrying at the time.

kamakazi_kal
09-03-2009, 02:07 PM
Lame thread ..... the guy is a PROFESSIONAL right?

Popcorn Sutton
09-03-2009, 02:08 PM
I have to admit that this article is a huge stretch. A QB has to adjust to having more time to make reads? Come on now. I'm all for being supportive of whatever QB is in there but this is a stretch.

footstepsfrom#27
09-03-2009, 02:10 PM
Josh McDaniels studied Orton extensively before bringing him in. What he saw was a player who was 21-12 as a starter despite throwing nearly as many interceptions (25) as touchdown passes (27) ... He also saw that Orton was strong in one critical area in which Cutler and the Broncos struggled last season: red-zone turnovers.

Wait.....what!?!

He saw "a player who was 21-12 as a starter despite throwing nearly as many interceptions (25) as touchdown passes (27)."

Isn't he making an argument here for why he should've traded for EVERYONE ELSE on the Bears roster, because they obviously were more responsible for the record than the QB was? How is this possibly an argument IN FAVOR of the QB?
Beantown shoots and scores!

crush17
09-03-2009, 02:12 PM
ok this is bothering the crap outta me: his name is spelled B-R-E-E-S

BREES.

it only irks me because I think he's a helluva QB and I root for the Saints now because of him...

so spell it right jerkys!

;)

bendog
09-03-2009, 02:14 PM
Several sources report McDaniels studied a lot of film from teams that were Culter suitors, and Orton was his guy. Supposedly we passed on Jason Campbell.

Chicago is still running the same offense that Halas installed where the forward pass was a. a novelty b. to give Sayers a rest c. desperation.

TheReverend
09-03-2009, 02:16 PM
Sure but maybe he didn't play pee wee...ever think of that? :rofl:

No he did. It's on record that he was a Boilermaker.

footstepsfrom#27
09-03-2009, 02:17 PM
Several sources report McDaniels studied a lot of film from teams that were Culter suitors, and Orton was his guy.
This explains a lot. ;D

BroncoBuff
09-03-2009, 02:23 PM
If he can't adjust to dropping back, then why isn't Simms or even Brandstater starting?

Isn't there supposed to be more shotgun with the Pats' offense, doesn't the shotgun kinda supecede a "drop back" anyway?

kamakazi_kal
09-03-2009, 02:27 PM
Isn't there supposed to be more shotgun with the Pats' offense, doesn't the shotgun kinda supecede a "drop back" anyway?

I think he' so used to being under center from his chicago days that he's having a hard time catching the ball in the shotgun formation.

WolfpackGuy
09-03-2009, 02:28 PM
He was what we thought he was.
Terrible.

jhns
09-03-2009, 02:28 PM
Well you have me convinced now. Orton sucks.

If that is really the excuse the only thing I can say is it shows orton has no idea what he is doing. You have to be able to feel the pocket and manipulate it as a QB. We have gone from one of the best in the league at this to what now looks to be one of the worst in the league. Great!

I will never understand this offseason.

gyldenlove
09-03-2009, 02:32 PM
Well you have me convinced now. Orton sucks.

If that is really the excuse the only thing I can say is it shows orton has no idea what he is doing. You have to be able to feel the pocket and manipulate it as a QB. We have gone from one of the best in the league at this to what now looks to be one of the worst in the league. Great!

I will never understand this offseason.

Check out how Mangini dismantled the Jets, how Belichick dismantled the Browns and you will understand much better.

uplink
09-03-2009, 02:34 PM
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BroncoSojia
09-03-2009, 02:39 PM
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http://www.pyromaniac.com/teams/images/denver-broncos/kyle-orton-stoned-medium.jpg



CROWN HIS ASS!

jhns
09-03-2009, 02:41 PM
What is even better about this is jay had a crappy o-line that gave up just as many sacks as the bears when he played here in 2007. Then during the 2008 season, last year, he suddenly got a great o-line. He also had one of the crappiest o-lines in college football. Remember when he talked about how hard it is to adjust to a better o-line with more time in the pocket? Yeah, I don't either.

footstepsfrom#27
09-03-2009, 02:41 PM
You gotta admit, this is some funny ****. ;D

UberBroncoMan
09-03-2009, 02:46 PM
Brian Griese got us to the playoffs. the last cannon armed QB we had couldn't do that.

He had Al Wilson and a defense to back him up.

Why do people constantly forget offense is but 1/2 the equation...

Hell throw in our ****ty special teams too.

WolfpackGuy
09-03-2009, 02:47 PM
What is even better about this is jay had a crappy o-line that gave up just as many sacks as the bears when he played here in 2007. Then during the 2008 season, last year, he suddenly got a great o-line. He also had one of the crappiest o-lines in college football. Remember when he talked about how hard it is to adjust to a better o-line with more time in the pocket? Yeah, I don't either.

What a lot of people aren't talking about is how Orton is a statue.
The line played great last year, but at least Jay could move around if needed.
God, this year is going to be ugly.

broncolife
09-03-2009, 02:54 PM
So all we have to do is bench our starting O-line and Start the 2nd string O-line and everything should be all right with Orton.If he still stinks then he lied and our 2nd string O-line would have given him his well deserved punishment.:)

footstepsfrom#27
09-03-2009, 02:55 PM
Isn't there supposed to be more shotgun with the Pats' offense, doesn't the shotgun kinda supecede a "drop back" anyway?
Hmmm...you're right. The simplicity of this obvious argument confused me so that I failed to see it. I'm used to more complicated stuff. ;D

baja
09-03-2009, 02:57 PM
even if it's 4 wide he's still throwing short in the heart of the defense. What should be said is that he can't throw a ball more then 10 yards with any type of accuracy.

I don't know how long it's going to take him to get comfortable. He forces throws with no pressure around him.

There is not one NFL QB that can't do what you claim Orton can't do.

the new posters here get more 'rediculas' by the day.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
09-03-2009, 03:04 PM
What a lot of people aren't talking about is how Orton is a statue.
The line played great last year, but at least Jay could move around if needed.
God, this year is going to be ugly.

We should just give up now.

Lemme guess: You went to NC State.

Chris
09-03-2009, 03:07 PM
I liked this quote.

During his career Orton has thrown 22 touchdowns and only two interceptions inside the opponents' 20-yard line, while the Cutler-led Denver offense tied for the league lead with seven red-zone turnovers (four interceptions, three fumbles) last season.

TheDave
09-03-2009, 03:09 PM
First off, I refuse to believe that his Bears offense had only 1 read and then he was to get rid of it...

Sounds like an excuse to me...

oubronco
09-03-2009, 03:09 PM
This explains a lot. ;D

But it doesn't help alot

jhns
09-03-2009, 03:11 PM
We should just give up now.

Lemme guess: You went to NC State.

We did give up already. Are you under the impression that trading Cutler for Orton is an attemp to win? I'm pretty sure it just says "I am Josh McDadaniels and after I am done making the Broncos a complete joke I look forward to working in Oakland since I know no one else will want me and no one will want to work there. We are a perfect match!".

bendog
09-03-2009, 03:13 PM
yeah den made out like bandits on the trade

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/O/OrtoKy00.htm

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/C/CutlJa00.htm

lex
09-03-2009, 03:15 PM
Orton is like the anti-Carson Palmer. I read somewhere that Palmers QB rating actually goes up the farther he throws it down the field (I think the stat was over 20 yards), which is amazing when you consider that its not like the defense doesnt defend the whole field against him, unlike Orton.

TheDave
09-03-2009, 03:20 PM
"We had a great quarterback -- one of the top five in the league," says sixth-year linebacker D.J. Williams. "[Losing Cutler] set us back a little bit. I would love to see Jay here, but we've got to work with the parts we've got now..."

Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/football/nfl/09/01/broncos/#ixzz0Q5426YIJ (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/football/nfl/09/01/broncos/#ixzz0Q5426YIJ)

TheReverend
09-03-2009, 03:23 PM
"We had a great quarterback -- one of the top five in the league," says sixth-year linebacker D.J. Williams. "[Losing Cutler] set us back a little bit. I would love to see Jay here, but we've got to work with the parts we've got now"

Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/football/nfl/09/01/broncos/#ixzz0Q5426YIJ (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/football/nfl/09/01/broncos/#ixzz0Q5426YIJ)

Mutiny.

MUTINY.

MUTINY.

MUTINY.

TheDave
09-03-2009, 03:28 PM
Mutiny.

MUTINY.

MUTINY.

MUTINY.

Doesn't sound like a ringing endorsement... 8')

Rigs11
09-03-2009, 03:38 PM
Kyle Orton simply does not provide a downfield passing threat to any defense---if he is indeed our starter--prepare to see many defenders near the LOS unless McD runs us out of 4 wide.........too bad Simms is hurt....

actually if you go back and watch when orton was with the bears, he did go downfield at times. A hell of alot more than he does in our offense.

TheReverend
09-03-2009, 03:39 PM
Doesn't sound like a ringing endorsement... 8')

That makes 100% of defensive captains that have referred to Jay as a top 5 QB and mentioned the steps taken backwards in losing him.

TheDave
09-03-2009, 03:42 PM
That makes 100% of defensive captains that have referred to Jay as a top 5 QB and mentioned the steps taken backwards in losing him.

Yeah, whatever... They're just a bunch of nutswingers. ;D

tsiguy96
09-03-2009, 03:43 PM
actually if you go back and watch when orton was with the bears, he did go downfield at times. A hell of alot more than he does in our offense.

i thought that too, which is why im wondering why hes not going downfield at all. is mcd telling him to keep it short for now so we can develop that part of the game or is he just shaky back there now...for some reason

TheDave
09-03-2009, 03:46 PM
i thought that too, which is why im wondering why hes not going downfield at all. is mcd telling him to keep it short for now so we can develop that part of the game or is he just shaky back there now...for some reason

From the link Bendog posted... This is one of his draft Bio's

Negatives
One thing will stick out to NFL scouts – watching him throw a long ball is just plain painful. They’re either off target ( a long way ), underthrown so the receiver has to slow down to a crawl to receive it, or he sits in the pocket so long he gets snapped in two. Another warning sign has to be his benching towards the end of his senior season when it all fell apart rather briskly. One more slight knock is that he played almost all of his college career out of the shotgun spread offense, and will take a long time to adjust to the complexities of an NFL passing scheme.

NUB
09-03-2009, 03:46 PM
Uh, isn't this a bad thing? "Yeah he sucks, but it's because he has more time than he is used to."

Riiiight...

CEH
09-03-2009, 03:48 PM
"We had a great quarterback -- one of the top five in the league," says sixth-year linebacker D.J. Williams. "[Losing Cutler] set us back a little bit. I would love to see Jay here, but we've got to work with the parts we've got now..."

Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/football/nfl/09/01/broncos/#ixzz0Q5426YIJ (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/football/nfl/09/01/broncos/#ixzz0Q5426YIJ)

So far
Guys that disliked Cutler: Nate Jackson and Jeb Putizer
Guys for Cutler : Champ, DJ
Guys I'm guessing like Cutler: BMarsh , Royal and Sheffler
Eventually we will have a team of Larry Izzos
This trade is getting stranger by the minute

kamakazi_kal
09-03-2009, 03:50 PM
"We had a great quarterback -- one of the top five in the league," says sixth-year linebacker D.J. Williams. "[Losing Cutler] set us back a little bit. I would love to see Jay here, but we've got to work with the parts we've got now..."

Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/football/nfl/09/01/broncos/#ixzz0Q5426YIJ (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/football/nfl/09/01/broncos/#ixzz0Q5426YIJ)

but ... ... ahh nevermind.

Tombstone RJ
09-03-2009, 03:50 PM
I agree with many posters here that mile high report is making excuses for Orton. If Orton can't mentally adjust to all the time he has to throw the ball because he's well, locked in the panic mode, then he needs to be benched.

Great QBs make great throws because they "see" the play before it happens. That is, mentally, they are ahead of the play, hence they can locate the throw.

It sounds like Orton's micro chip is just not processing fast enough... which is dangerous.

houghtam
09-03-2009, 03:50 PM
I liked this quote.

During his career Orton has thrown 22 touchdowns and only two interceptions inside the opponents' 20-yard line, while the Cutler-led Denver offense tied for the league lead with seven red-zone turnovers (four interceptions, three fumbles) last season.

[/COLOR][/LEFT]

Even better is the comments at the bottom.

"You can add another fumble in there courtesy of Ed Hochuli. That makes it 4 INTs and 4 fumbles."

and

"That's what you call a balanced attack."

ROFL!

tsiguy96
09-03-2009, 03:53 PM
From the link Bendog posted... This is one of his draft Bio's

i know im talking only about his play at chicago. he hasnt gone downfield once here, there he atleast used to once in awhile.

gyldenlove
09-03-2009, 03:54 PM
Even better is the comments at the bottom.

"You can add another fumble in there courtesy of Ed Hochuli. That makes it 4 INTs and 4 fumbles."

and

"That's what you call a balanced attack."

ROFL!

For his career in Denver he is 3 INTs and 1 TD in red zone play, although one of those picks came in our own red zone.

footstepsfrom#27
09-03-2009, 03:57 PM
So here's the relevant question we should NOW be asking: Which of the three QB's has assimilated this offensive system the best?

tsiguy96
09-03-2009, 03:58 PM
For his career in Denver he is 3 INTs and 1 TD in red zone play, although one of those picks came in our own red zone.

technically, his career in denver is all stats at zero ;)

BlaK-Argentina
09-03-2009, 03:58 PM
That makes 100% of defensive captains that have referred to Jay as a top 5 QB and mentioned the steps taken backwards in losing him.

Everyone knows we downgraded at QB by losing Cutler. Will we be a better team in the end? That's the real question. I don't care who's playing QB as long as we're winning more games than with Cutler.

tsiguy96
09-03-2009, 04:00 PM
So here's the relevant question we should NOW be asking: Which of the three QB's has assimilated this offensive system the best?

if brandstater plays like he did last week with the first team he has to get a shot. sure he had a couple low spots, but we ran the ball a lot with him (effectively i might add) and he wasnt afraid to hit the open guy. if he plays good tonight, maybe having him as starter would be good simply because teh play calling would be designed much like flacco's was last year, run a LOT and let him shoot downfield a couple times

TheDave
09-03-2009, 04:02 PM
i know im talking only about his play at chicago. he hasnt gone downfield once here, there he atleast used to once in awhile.

I think they are playing the percentages here... If he's only got a 10-15% chance of completeing something over 20 yards... why bother?

This isn't me being negative, but I was at that Mile High practice. His long ball attempt was the most brutal thing I have ever seen out of a pro QB. In all honesty, I wouldn't be surprised to hear his arm is/was injured.

gyldenlove
09-03-2009, 04:03 PM
Everyone knows we downgraded at QB by losing Cutler. Will we be a better team in the end? That's the real question. I don't care who's playing QB as long as we're winning more games than with Cutler.

That is a faulty logic. If we win 9 games this year by outstanding defensive play and crappy QB play, could we have won more games if we had Cutler instead of Orton?

broncofan7
09-03-2009, 04:04 PM
Everyone knows we downgraded at QB by losing Cutler. Will we be a better team in the end? That's the real question. I don't care who's playing QB as long as we're winning more games than with Cutler.

Ayers, Fonzie, Quinn (?) and Orton .......for Jay and the 5th round WR (KNOX) who smoked Fonzie............

TheReverend
09-03-2009, 04:05 PM
Everyone knows we downgraded at QB by losing Cutler. Will we be a better team in the end? That's the real question. I don't care who's playing QB as long as we're winning more games than with Cutler.

Jesus, Mary and Joseph, how is that possibly in question?!

TheDave
09-03-2009, 04:05 PM
Everyone knows we downgraded at QB by losing Cutler. Will we be a better team in the end? That's the real question. I don't care who's playing QB as long as we're winning more games than with Cutler.

Believe it or not, we could have been a better team with Cutler... This wasn't a case of addition by subtraction.

Think of it this way... we could've kept Cutler, Switched to a 3-4, drafted Ayers @12, even pissed away our 1st next year for Smith.

Would we be a better team than we are now?

Yes we would've... Significantly.

tsiguy96
09-03-2009, 04:07 PM
I think they are playing the percentages here... If he's only got a 10-15% chance of completeing something over 20 yards... why bother?

This isn't me being negative, but I was at that Mile High practice. His long ball attempt was the most brutal thing I have ever seen out of a pro QB. In all honesty, I would be surprised to hear his arm is/was injured.

ive seen all his PS snaps too believe me im not thrilled with what ive seen, i dont think orton has thrown the ball over 13 yards this preseason which is ridiculous in my eyes. thats why i like brandstater. sure he only started like a series or two but it just seemed like a different offense out there, maybe it was a fluke but if he can do it again id be all for giving him a shot. but then again, the regular season could be completely different who knows

TheReverend
09-03-2009, 04:08 PM
ive seen all his PS snaps too believe me im not thrilled with what ive seen, i dont think orton has thrown the ball over 13 yards this preseason which is ridiculous in my eyes. thats why i like brandstater. sure he only started like a series or two but it just seemed like a different offense out there, maybe it was a fluke but if he can do it again id be all for giving him a shot. but then again, the regular season could be completely different who knows

He set a new PR with a 13.5 yard completion last week vs Chicago.

tsiguy96
09-03-2009, 04:10 PM
He set a new PR with a 13.5 yard completion last week vs Chicago.

http://11.media.tumblr.com/kPqyM9HWNpw0wynaZvBeumxjo1_500.jpg

footstepsfrom#27
09-03-2009, 04:11 PM
Chris Simms has to be kicking himself that he's injured right now.

elsid13
09-03-2009, 04:12 PM
I'm really confused. Orton stated he struggles on 3 step drops, but McDaniels offense is mainly 3 and 5 steps drops. Why he is good QB for this system?

TheDave
09-03-2009, 04:14 PM
Chris Simms has to be kicking himself that he's injured right now.

Injured or not he wouldn't be starting... Trading Cutler was brutal enough. Imagine what happens when the coach has to admit he traded a franchise QB for a Back-up and a couple of picks.

Tombstone RJ
09-03-2009, 04:16 PM
Chris Simms has to be kicking himself that he's injured right now.

When he went down with the injury, I was kicking myself. I really want to see him get a chance, esp. if Orton struggles.

kamakazi_kal
09-03-2009, 04:19 PM
Injured or not he wouldn't be starting... Trading Cutler was brutal enough. Imagine what happens when the coach has to admit he traded a franchise QB for a Back-up and a couple of picks.

he could blame it on an upper extremity injury.

Popcorn Sutton
09-03-2009, 04:19 PM
Jesus, Mary and Joseph, how is that possibly in question?!

I guess it depends on what "in the end" means? Does that mean the end of this season or a few years from now?

TheDave
09-03-2009, 04:20 PM
he could blame it on an upper extremity injury.

NOTHING would surprise me anymore...

zdoor
09-03-2009, 04:23 PM
Wow. That's a real stretch. Let me get this straight; Orton, who played only two seasons out of four in Chicago, is so rigidly steeped in Chicago's system that an entire training camp and 3 preseason games is not enough to enable him to seek out a target downfield without dumping the ball off to his 3rd or 4th option? That's about the weirdest thing I've heard yet on this situation.

But let's say we take his word for that just for argument's sake.

If this is true, it makes me feel MUCH worse about him. If he can't adapt to throwing a pass 15 yards downfield after 6 weeks of camp, practices and games, when will he adapt? Can he at all? This artical makes him sound pretty dumb, and despite my opinion of his physical skills, I don't think the guy is dumb. In all honesty, this sounds like an excuse for something. We all know he can throw a pass 40 yards since he's done it, but I have another theory that seems more plausible. He knows he can't evade the rush and he has trouble hanging in the pocket or sliding around because he panics a bit and settles for the first open guy he sees. That theory may not be right, but it sounds every bit as possible as the idea that he can't adjust to having to much time to throw. If we heard a running back say he couldn't gain yardage because his holes were to big, or a pass rusher complain that he couldn't get to the QB because the offensive tackle made him uncomfortable because he was to easy to get past, we'd all call BS in an instant.

Think about it...

Agree completely. That is just dumb.

Lolad
09-03-2009, 04:28 PM
There is not one NFL QB that can't do what you claim Orton can't do.

the new posters here get more 'rediculas' by the day.

he has shown his unwillingness to throw the ball past 10 yards, when it is thrown past 10 yards he throws behind the receiver. He's inconsistent on anything greater than 10 yards. You havent been watching games if you can't tell

Br0nc0Buster
09-03-2009, 04:38 PM
Orton doesnt suck

Throwing short passes may not be as exciting, but there will be lots of those in this offense

I believe Cassel had like a 3 yard average as far as how far his balls traveled

Im not that worried about Orton, he is a stopgap, and he will be efficient while he is here until Brandy or someone else can take over

baja
09-03-2009, 04:39 PM
yeah den made out like bandits on the trade

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/O/OrtoKy00.htm

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/C/CutlJa00.htm

Yep looks like Orton is the better QB.

Hay ya bendog long time no see. ;D

lex
09-03-2009, 04:48 PM
ive seen all his PS snaps too believe me im not thrilled with what ive seen, i dont think orton has thrown the ball over 13 yards this preseason which is ridiculous in my eyes. thats why i like brandstater. sure he only started like a series or two but it just seemed like a different offense out there, maybe it was a fluke but if he can do it again id be all for giving him a shot. but then again, the regular season could be completely different who knows

Brandstater rookie, guy. Game moves too fast, guy.

footstepsfrom#27
09-03-2009, 04:52 PM
Orton doesnt suck

Throwing short passes may not be as exciting, but there will be lots of those in this offense

I believe Cassel had like a 3 yard average as far as how far his balls traveled

Im not that worried about Orton, he is a stopgap, and he will be efficient while he is here until Brandy or someone else can take over
Then why the need to offer explanations like this? If it's by design there's no need to explain himself.

Broncos4tw
09-03-2009, 05:11 PM
What's the point of the article? Who cares why he can't do it? If he can't he can't. Will he adjust? I hope so.

But he has never been known to be a downfield threat. His longest passes over 3 years? 54, 55 and 65. Versus Culter's long passes over 3 years, at 71, 68 and 93. Get used to it. He is a short passing game QB.

Yards per attempt for him are 5.1, 6.0, 6.4 over 3 years. This can somewhat be attributed to the Chicago passing game imo, but then, so far, I'm seeing pretty much the same thing.

And he hasn't thrown a 40 yard TD. Nice attempt to make him seem better than he is. We'll be "ok" as we can, if he learns how to lead a receiver, doesn't telegraph his throws, and looks past the primary receiver every play. That still doesn't mean we'll even hit the playoffs under him. Just means we won't get obliterated each week.

baja
09-03-2009, 05:19 PM
he has shown his unwillingness to throw the ball past 10 yards, when it is thrown past 10 yards he throws behind the receiver. He's inconsistent on anything greater than 10 yards. You haven't been watching games if you can't tell

He doesn't call the plays. To say a starting (or any for that matter) NFL QB can't throw a 10 yard with accuracy is absurd.

BlaK-Argentina
09-03-2009, 05:26 PM
That is a faulty logic. If we win 9 games this year by outstanding defensive play and crappy QB play, could we have won more games if we had Cutler instead of Orton?

Probably, but Cutler didn't want to be here and our coach wasn't so sure he was the right guy so... we'll never know. We can only hope that the whole team has improved enough to overcome poor QB play. (but remember, we still don't know how Orton will play)

BlaK-Argentina
09-03-2009, 05:30 PM
What's the point of the article? Who cares why he can't do it? If he can't he can't. Will he adjust? I hope so.

But he has never been known to be a downfield threat. His longest passes over 3 years? 54, 55 and 65. Versus Culter's long passes over 3 years, at 71, 68 and 93. Get used to it. He is a short passing game QB.

Yards per attempt for him are 5.1, 6.0, 6.4 over 3 years. This can somewhat be attributed to the Chicago passing game imo, but then, so far, I'm seeing pretty much the same thing.

And he hasn't thrown a 40 yard TD. Nice attempt to make him seem better than he is. We'll be "ok" as we can, if he learns how to lead a receiver, doesn't telegraph his throws, and looks past the primary receiver every play. That still doesn't mean we'll even hit the playoffs under him. Just means we won't get obliterated each week.

Cutler's long ball was awful. Yes he liked to throw deep but he almost never completed those passes. If you have to throw deep to keep the defense honest, then Orton can do that just as well. Of course you want to complete the long passes but people seem to forget that with Cutler that almost never happened. I think Orton will be just fine in that regard.

Of course, if you want to talk about completing passes 30 yd downfield on a rope to a well covered WR like Cutler did, that's a whole different story as I don't believe Orton is capable of making those plays.

baja
09-03-2009, 05:35 PM
Probably, but Cutler didn't want to be here and our coach wasn't so sure he was the right guy so... we'll never know. We can only hope that the whole team has improved enough to overcome poor QB play. (but remember, we still don't know how Orton will play)

Most reasonable post of the day right here.

yerner
09-03-2009, 05:56 PM
I think they are playing the percentages here... If he's only got a 10-15% chance of completeing something over 20 yards... why bother?

This isn't me being negative, but I was at that Mile High practice. His long ball attempt was the most brutal thing I have ever seen out of a pro QB. In all honesty, I wouldn't be surprised to hear his arm is/was injured.

I haven't seen him throw deep yet. Do you really think his arm is this bad?

lex
09-03-2009, 06:05 PM
I haven't seen him throw deep yet. Do you really think his arm is this bad?

A lot of 17 yard passes. Only once does he try to go for 40 yards. Its towards the end against the Saints and was massively underthrown.

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TheReverend
09-03-2009, 06:08 PM
Probably, but Cutler didn't want to be here and our coach wasn't so sure he was the right guy so... we'll never know. We can only hope that the whole team has improved enough to overcome poor QB play. (but remember, we still don't know how Orton will play)

Because our new coach is a jerk off lacking management skills.

TheDave
09-03-2009, 06:11 PM
I haven't seen him throw deep yet. Do you really think his arm is this bad?

In fairness it was the type of pass Jay threw all the time... a 25 yard bullet right down the seam. It needed to be thrown exactly like that.

Instead it was thrown on an arc, FLOATED, and ended up 3-5 yards short... Hill who was out of position, had time to recover, run under it, and pick it off.

Could it have been a bad pass?... Sure.

But it was one of, if not the ugliest throws I've seen a pro QB make.

BlaK-Argentina
09-03-2009, 06:11 PM
Because our new coach is a jerk off lacking management skills.

And Cutler lacks leadership and acted like a spoiled child. They were both wrong.

footstepsfrom#27
09-03-2009, 06:21 PM
He doesn't call the plays. To say a starting (or any for that matter) NFL QB can't throw a 10 yard with accuracy is absurd.
Do you think McD is calling all these plays? I think he's checking down on a significant number of plays where he has open receives downfield. I seriously doubt McD is only calling downfield passes for Simms and Brandstater, but if he is maybe it's because he knows Orton can't throw it downfield with any confidence. Either way...Orton himself just told us why he's not doing it and according to his own words, it's because his pass protection is too good.

colonelbeef
09-03-2009, 06:29 PM
Cutler's long ball was awful. Yes he liked to throw deep but he almost never completed those passes. If you have to throw deep to keep the defense honest, then Orton can do that just as well. Of course you want to complete the long passes but people seem to forget that with Cutler that almost never happened. I think Orton will be just fine in that regard.

Of course, if you want to talk about completing passes 30 yd downfield on a rope to a well covered WR like Cutler did, that's a whole different story as I don't believe Orton is capable of making those plays.

completely false. His throw two weeks ago to Aromashodu was a thing of beauty, and a throw that Kyle Orton couldn't dream to make on Madden, let alone in the real world.

colonelbeef
09-03-2009, 06:31 PM
And Cutler lacks leadership and acted like a spoiled child. They were both wrong.

He didn't act like a spoiled child at all- he acted like somebody who didn't trust his coach. Guess what? Nobody on the team should trust him, he obviously doesn't like to tell the truth, much like his mentor. That, the hoodie, and his petulance when asked about injuries are the only things he seems to have in common with Belichick unfortunately.

Spider
09-03-2009, 06:36 PM
hes not comfortable having so much time behind the line.
http://www.milehighreport.com/2009/9/3/1014148/sanity-break

used to chicagos 3 step drop, if his read wasnt there hed toss it, here he needs to learn that he has time to go through his progressions and find the open guy.

what in the hell are you smoking ?
Seriously ......Orton hasnt been a starter that long to be ridged and set in his ways .......
I like Orton he will be fine here ,but it will take time ..........

Zoobie
09-03-2009, 06:39 PM
Good post ... hopefully Simms will start against the Bungles, and my pimping will be put to the test ::)


Here's an interesting part of that article:



What a heavy rationalization there .... those numbers are obviously relevant, even impressive. But at what point does the past give way to the present? Through three pre-season games now, he has what, three red-zone turnovers? Plus one RZ TO in the scrimmage, plus the dropped INT in the end zone against Seattle.

Something doesn't add up here. It seems Josh is so heavily invested in Orton, he's gonna stubbornly ride that horse 'til it drops. Can't say I blame him ... but at what point do you acknowledge the reality that Simms has been VERY good thus far, and none of these excuses apply to him?


We do know one thing for sure: The promise the QB job would be an "open competition" was not true.


I am by no means endorsing Orton as a world beater, but at what point has Chris Simms been "VERY good"? 1 pre season game? He couldn't impress coaches enough to beat out Orton at any point during training camp and now he is injured. I just do not see your reasoning at all.

elsid13
09-03-2009, 06:39 PM
what in the hell are you smoking ?
Seriously ......Orton hasnt been a starter that long to be ridged and set in his ways .......
I like Orton he will be fine here ,but it will take time ..........

Come on Spider, at this point we know what Orton is in the league and that is average QB that might have good game or two but won't scare DCs in the league with his ability. He is a likable Griese.

baja
09-03-2009, 06:40 PM
Do you think McD is calling all these plays? I think he's checking down on a significant number of plays where he has open receives downfield. I seriously doubt McD is only calling downfield passes for Simms and Brandstater, but if he is maybe it's because he knows Orton can't throw it downfield with any confidence. Either way...Orton himself just told us why he's not doing it and according to his own words, it's because his pass protection is too good.

This place is becoming an exercise in the absurd. Double talk and mumbo jumbo aside do you think there is even one NFL QB that can not throw a ten yard pass with reasonably consistent accuracy.

baja
09-03-2009, 06:41 PM
Hell I can throw a ten yard pass with reasonably consistent accuracy.

Spider
09-03-2009, 06:43 PM
Come on Spider, at this point we know what Orton is in the league and that is average QB that might have good game or two but won't scare DCs in the league with his ability. He is a likable Griese.

we dont know **** ..........Seriously , when he got rollin in Chi town , he got laid up ..we like to think we know **** , but when it comes to the NFL we dont know our asses from a hole in the ground ... only what we see on TV .....

footstepsfrom#27
09-03-2009, 06:45 PM
This place is becoming an exercise in the absurd. Double talk and mumbo jumbo aside do you think there is even one NFL QB that can not throw a ten yard pass with reasonably consistent accuracy.
It's not a question of if he CAN, it's a question if he WILL. The point is...HE says he has to much time to throw. That's either 1) an excuse, or 2) the truth.

Which one frightens you more?

errand
09-03-2009, 06:47 PM
Kyle Orton simply does not provide a downfield passing threat to any defense---if he is indeed our starter--prepare to see many defenders near the LOS unless McD runs us out of 4 wide.........too bad Simms is hurt....

You do realize that McDaniels offense is designed to exploit short to intermediate routes. Consider it a dink and dunk if you want, but it has been effective for several seasons now including a few SB titles and appearances.

I find it amazing that people on here are complaining about a head coach who has a "system", who then goes out and finds a "system QB" to run it.

Mike ran zone blocking running game "system". It required smaller more athletic linemen to make it work, and it required one cut downhill runners to carry the ball.

Granted having a talented RB and OL like TD, Nalen, et al helps Mike's system become highly effective vs. having Peyton Hillis and the current group we have, just as having a guy like Tom Brady and Randy Moss makes McDaniels system more effective than Eddie Royal and Kyle Orton pulling the trigger.

Several people on here are complaining about Orton's arm strength because it isn't like Jay's...neither is Brady's...and yet they don't even take into account this isn't a bombs away play action type offense. It's a control passing game that goes on the belief it's easier to throw a 6 yard pass than run the ball for 6 yards.

elsid13
09-03-2009, 06:50 PM
we dont know **** ..........Seriously , when he got rollin in Chi town , he got laid up ..we like to think we know **** , but when it comes to the NFL we dont know our asses from a hole in the ground ... only what we see on TV .....

I realize that we are all full of ****, but even watching NFL on TV(which doesn't make you expert Popps), it pretty clear Orton has limitation. We can see that Orton struggles on the long ball, has tendency to panic when he doesn't have a clean pocket and very very risk adverse.

footstepsfrom#27
09-03-2009, 06:51 PM
You do realize that McDaniels offense is designed to exploit short to intermediate routes. Consider it a dink and dunk if you want, but it has been effective for several seasons now including a few SB titles and appearances.

I find it amazing that people on here are complaining about a head coach who has a "system", who then goes out and finds a "system QB" to run it.

Mike ran zone blocking running game "system". It required smaller more athletic linemen to make it work, and it required one cut downhill runners to carry the ball.

Granted having a talented RB and OL like TD, Nalen, et al helps Mike's system become highly effective vs. having Peyton Hillis and the current group we have, just as having a guy like Tom Brady and Randy Moss makes McDaniels system more effective than Eddie Royal and Kyle Orton pulling the trigger.

Several people on here are complaining about Orton's arm strength because it isn't like Jay's...neither is Brady's...and yet they don't even take into account this isn't a bombs away play action type offense. It's a control passing game that goes on the belief it's easier to throw a 6 yard pass than run the ball for 6 yards.
None of that explains his statement.

TheReverend
09-03-2009, 06:53 PM
Hell I can throw a ten yard pass with reasonably consistent accuracy.

You scared to try?

Ours is.

Sign baja

errand
09-03-2009, 06:54 PM
Here comes Brian Griese Part II. It's gonna be a long season.

If Orton exhibits the same lack of leadership skills that Griese exhibited, then I'd agree....but, like I've said numerous times....as long as he wins games I don't care if Josh McDaniels was our QB.

Spider
09-03-2009, 06:57 PM
I realize that we are all full of ****, but even watching NFL on TV(which doesn't make you expert Popps), it pretty clear Orton has limitation. We can see that Orton struggles on the long ball, has tendency to panic when he doesn't have a clean pocket and very very risk adverse. .... My point is we dont know about Ortons limitations , In Chicago he had 1 receiver that was half ass and that was Hester " I dont need to come back to the ball or fight for it" ( Cutler learned that ) and a poor oline , he didnt have much time to set his feet , now he is in Denver with the Patriots system , short , intermediate passing ........ Orton was doing really good until he got hurt ........ where as Cutler really doesnt need to set his feet .... Just a different QB

errand
09-03-2009, 07:00 PM
Brian Griese got us to the playoffs. the last cannon armed QB we had couldn't do that.

ummm...Gus Frerotte got us into the playoffs that season....he went 4-2 down the stretch while Griese was injured.

errand
09-03-2009, 07:03 PM
15yd pass and 25yd after catch.

...which is exactly how this offense McDaniels has installed is designed to do

baja
09-03-2009, 07:09 PM
It's not a question of if he CAN, it's a question if he WILL. The point is...HE says he has to much time to throw. That's either 1) an excuse, or 2) the truth.

Which one frightens you more?

Dude you focus and over analyze the miniscule like no one I ever meant.

Orton could say his ass hurts and you could write a book about his gayness.

errand
09-03-2009, 07:12 PM
Orton's yac numbers have been huge (especially seeing th best yac WR in the league hasn't played).

Can a QB be somehow credited with yac yards? I'm thinking no , but ... ???


Again, this offense is designed to have the QB throw a short to intermediate pass and the WR get YAC.

Just as Mike's running game was designed to have the OL zone block, and the RB make one cut and run downhill...which explains why he was able to make all-stars out of guys like Olandis Gary, Reuben Droughns, Mike Anderson, Tatum Bell, etc. the NFL was confused how mike was always able to get production out of guys who might not have ever been drafted or signed elsewhere.

Certain offenses require certain types of players who can make it work. Mike's bootleg play action offense wasn't as effective with Griese an admitted statue running it....but was more effective with a more numble guys like Elway, Plummer, and Cutler.

Mike's offense required athletic OL, one cut and go RB's, and strong armed nimble QB's.....Josh's doesn't.

errand
09-03-2009, 07:20 PM
That's the silliest explanation for his play possible. Everything he's asked to do here, he did in Purdue and was even more steeped in THAT system than he was in Chicago's.

He ran the spread offense at Purdue....

I think perhaps the writer's point is that when you take a shotgun QB like say Leftwich or Young, and ask them to do things they have little to no experience in, there's going to be a bit of awkwardness...an adjustment period.

Mike Vick's college experience was if the initial read wasn't open....run. He's still not been able to embrace waiting for his 3rd or 4th option after several seasons in the NFL.

I still say we give Orton this season to prove he can run the offense....and if he's throwing red zone INT's in weeks 13, 14 and 16 etc....then we should start looking for another option

errand
09-03-2009, 07:25 PM
Wait.....what!?!

He saw "a player who was 21-12 as a starter despite throwing nearly as many interceptions (25) as touchdown passes (27)."

Isn't he making an argument here for why he should've traded for EVERYONE ELSE on the Bears roster, because they obviously were more responsible for the record than the QB was? How is this possibly an argument IN FAVOR of the QB?

Prior to last season as the Bear's starter Orton threw only 9 Td's and 13 INT's as a rookie. His 2nd attempt as a starter saw him throwing 18 Td's vs 12 int's.

BlaK-Argentina
09-03-2009, 07:26 PM
completely false. His throw two weeks ago to Aromashodu was a thing of beauty, and a throw that Kyle Orton couldn't dream to make on Madden, let alone in the real world.

Do you know how to read? I was talking exclusively DEEP PASS. IIRC that pass was the kind of pass I mention in the last paragraph. Don't let the hate blind you.

errand
09-03-2009, 07:35 PM
It's kind of silly that people are still discussing Orton as if he might be a good NFL QB.

If he was good, Chicago wouldn't have traded him (and 3 high draft picks) to get another QB...let alone a QB with the baggage Cutler was carrying at the time.

Now you're just being absurd....Orton in Bear's system would be the above average guy everyone on here is claiming he is despite his winning 64% of his starts. Cutler for all his "baggage" is a franchise QB. He has the arm to run the Bear's offense because they do throw the ball deep alot more than we will.

My big problem with Jay was the fact that he didn't have to demand a trade....but did.

again, the bottom line is that Jay didn't want to be here...and that's why he's not here.

lex
09-03-2009, 07:56 PM
Now you're just being absurd....Orton in Bear's system would be the above average guy everyone on here is claiming he is despite his winning 64% of his starts. Cutler for all his "baggage" is a franchise QB. He has the arm to run the Bear's offense because they do throw the ball deep alot more than we will.

My big problem with Jay was the fact that he didn't have to demand a trade....but did.

again, the bottom line is that Jay didn't want to be here...and that's why he's not here.

Only if youre a football humping monkey.

Steve Sewell
09-03-2009, 08:54 PM
Wow. This artical makes him sound pretty dumb

Think about it...

lol

Br0nc0Buster
09-03-2009, 09:27 PM
Then why the need to offer explanations like this? If it's by design there's no need to explain himself.

I dont know what explanations he is offering, but Cassel, who the Chiefs gave a 60 million dollar contract to, had the lowest yards per pass ratio last year

footstepsfrom#27
09-03-2009, 09:27 PM
Dude you focus and over analyze the miniscule like no one I ever meant.

Orton could say his ass hurts and you could write a book about his gayness.
Right...because I'm the only one who thinks this is stupid, oh except for most of the other 146 posts on here.

footstepsfrom#27
09-03-2009, 09:29 PM
lol
Whatever...I guess a typo negates the point eh?