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View Full Version : Rookie head coaches - you think McDaniels has it rough?


Rulon Velvet Jones
09-03-2009, 07:48 AM
Haley fires Gailey, has no o-line, receiver corps is crap, Cassell is hurt and will be battered all season

Cable commits attempted murder in the meeting room, drafted Heyward-Bey, has a 400-lb QB and has Al Davis meddling constantly.

And now this from TB:
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2009/09/03/bucs-fire-jagodzinski/

Morris has fired his OC in Tampa.

So, for everyone quick to write off McDaniels and the outlook in Denver, know that he's yet to ****can his OC. Yes, Cutler is gone, but things aren't as dreary as they may look. At least he's not firing coaches a week before the season starts. I'd be interested in reading some of papers from these other cities to see if their rookie HCs are dumped on as much as McDaniels.

gyldenlove
09-03-2009, 08:02 AM
Haley fires Gailey, has no o-line, receiver corps is crap, Cassell is hurt and will be battered all season

Cable commits attempted murder in the meeting room, drafted Heyward-Bey, has a 400-lb QB and has Al Davis meddling constantly.

And now this from TB:
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2009/09/03/bucs-fire-jagodzinski/

Morris has fired his OC in Tampa.

So, for everyone quick to write off McDaniels and the outlook in Denver, know that he's yet to ****can his OC. Yes, Cutler is gone, but things aren't as dreary as they may look. At least he's not firing coaches a week before the season starts. I'd be interested in reading some of papers from these other cities to see if their rookie HCs are dumped on as much as McDaniels.

That is the thing, of all the rookie HC's Mcdaniels and the guy in Indy are the two who had it the easiest. They took over teams with significant talent and established systems and people.

The guy in Indy, aside from firing a few coaches has really not done much.

Mcdaniels and his new regime has really changed things up, Haley didn't mess up the O-line or the WR group, they were crap before he got there, Jamarcus was a fatass before Cable, Al Davis has been Al Davis longer than Tom Cable has been Tom Cable, not really his fault. Tampa has been disfunctional for a while.

PRBronco
09-03-2009, 08:20 AM
Hellooooo? Branden Albert? Come on man, know your stuff! ;)

loborugger
09-03-2009, 08:31 AM
Haley fires Gailey, has no o-line, receiver corps is crap, Cassell is hurt and will be battered all season

Cable commits attempted murder in the meeting room, drafted Heyward-Bey, has a 400-lb QB and has Al Davis meddling constantly.

And now this from TB:
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2009/09/03/bucs-fire-jagodzinski/

Morris has fired his OC in Tampa.

So, for everyone quick to write off McDaniels and the outlook in Denver, know that he's yet to ****can his OC. Yes, Cutler is gone, but things aren't as dreary as they may look. At least he's not firing coaches a week before the season starts. I'd be interested in reading some of papers from these other cities to see if their rookie HCs are dumped on as much as McDaniels.

Ya, but there are low expectations in KC and Oakland - at least by any non-homeristic outlook. Following the SD debacle last year, Denver fan had a realistic view of the team going 8 & 8 or better. I dont know what Buc fan could reasonably expect, probably .500 or better, also. But Buc fan didnt watch his owner bring in a kid from another franchise who promptly ran off a franchise QB. So, if Cable and Haley struggle, it was expected anyways. If Morris struggles, it wont be as expected, but he will get a grace period. But if McGenius struggles, Denver fan will look at it and say, "we gave up Shanny, Cutler (and most likely Marshall) for this???"

Gcver2ver3
09-03-2009, 08:35 AM
it is a weird year for rookie HCs but none of the other coaches compare to the negative press McDaniels has endured...

but the offseason is long so nothing else noteworthy to talk about so people just overanalyzed the same crap....

not one game has been played yet...

if McDaniels can somehow come in and win games right away, all this stuff will be forgotten...

TheDave
09-03-2009, 08:39 AM
The fact is, if he doesn't trade cutler none of the national press is on him...

SonOfLe-loLang
09-03-2009, 08:44 AM
Can you imagine if McD fired McCoy here? UPROAR. "McDummy doesnt know what he's doing...ZOOOOOMMMGGGGG"

Gcver2ver3
09-03-2009, 08:45 AM
The fact is, if he doesn't trade cutler none of the national press is on him...

i'd go a step further and say that if cutler didn't beg to get traded and go to every media outlet available to cry that the national press never goes beserk...

bloodsunday
09-03-2009, 08:45 AM
At this point McDaniels has just about hit Rock Bottom. 50% of Bronco nation (at least) hate him. The national talking heads expect a 4 win season. He's dealt with all the malcontents, with Marshall pending.

Now the only question that remains is how he can actually perform AS A COACH.

jhns
09-03-2009, 08:46 AM
The difference is those other coaches started out in a rough situation. Mcdaniels came to a pretty good situation and made it rough himself. I still can't understand fans actually defending his offseason moves. A couple more years of these decisions and we won't recover for a LONG time.

It will probably already be a long time actually. We aren't winning with a system QB any time soon. You need a good defense, special teams, and run game for that. We aren't getting an established QB because nobody in this league is as dumb as mcdaniels. So that leaves us with drafting a QB. Say we get one that works out next offseason, we still will have some years of development. Otherwise we get to wait about that same time for our defense to turn into one of the best. This is assuming they can scout and develope talent.

I am still waiting to wake up and realize I have just been having a horrible nightmare.

TheDave
09-03-2009, 08:48 AM
i'd go a step further and say that if cutler didn't beg to get traded and go to every media outlet available to cry that the national press never goes beserk...

had they kept him that would have died down by now... The act of actually moving him if keeping this thing alive.

I'm not placing bame here... every party involved screwed the pooch on this one. But if we keep him and force him to play the majority of this would have died out.

Gcver2ver3
09-03-2009, 08:52 AM
had they kept him that would have died down by now... The act of actually moving him if keeping this thing alive.

I'm not placing bame here... every party involved screwed the pooch on this one. But if we keep him and force him to play the majority of this would have died out.

i don't disagree...

bloodsunday
09-03-2009, 09:07 AM
The difference is those other coaches started out in a rough situation. Mcdaniels came to a pretty good situation and made it rough himself. I still can't understand fans actually defending his offseason moves. A couple more years of these decisions and we won't recover for a LONG time.

I won't attempt to defend McDaniels... yet. But shouldn't we at least let this play out a little - you know games that count, maybe even a full season - before we trade in our Orange and Blue jerseys?

Things are not always what they appear. For example, early last season it looked like we had the best young team in the league and we started out HOT. Hell even "Irv and Joe" were taking 12 to 13 wins, and Joe is the most pessimistic guy in Denver. Combine that with San Diego blowing it early on and it appeared we were a lock for the playoffs. But little did we know that we were about to witness a historic collapse. We were the same old Mike Shanahan late season collapse team masked with some high octane talent.

I am not hiding from the fact that things look bleak and its hard to be optimistic as we sit here today. But let's show a little patience and let this play out.

jhns
09-03-2009, 09:11 AM
i'd go a step further and say that if cutler didn't beg to get traded and go to every media outlet available to cry that the national press never goes beserk...

Yeah, the entire one media outlet he went to the one time is an insane number. Or maybe you count it as two because he gave a couple sentence comment when they bugged him at a basketball game.

broncofan7
09-03-2009, 09:17 AM
the fact is, if he doesn't trade cutler none of the national press is on him...

end thread.

jhns
09-03-2009, 09:22 AM
I won't attempt to defend McDaniels... yet. But shouldn't we at least let this play out a little - you know games that count, maybe even a full season - before we trade in our Orange and Blue jerseys?

Things are not always what they appear. For example, early last season it looked like we had the best young team in the league and we started out HOT. Hell even "Irv and Joe" were taking 12 to 13 wins, and Joe is the most pessimistic guy in Denver. Combine that with San Diego blowing it early on and it appeared we were a lock for the playoffs. But little did we know that we were about to witness a historic collapse. We were the same old Mike Shanahan late season collapse team masked with some high octane talent.

I am not hiding from the fact that things look bleak and its hard to be optimistic as we sit here today. But let's show a little patience and let this play out.

Not likely to happen for me. I feel the team is actually being hurt right now and I won't support the person responsible. Although, I will always support bowlen and I think he is also responsible$ I just tell myself that he is just the money and didn't know better. The guys he pays should have known better.

I also don't agree with this late season collapse theory. We have had a crazy number of injuries the last couple of years and we collapsed after those injuries. That can be blamed on depth which has been a problem. This team was still very good though and it was rebuilding. While rebuilding it looked like a very good team that could win 10 games last year before the injuries. This offense was made up of rookie-third year players and looked amazing. Of course they made youthful mistakes.

Things are as they appear more times than not. I have seen our players play and it isn't like this is ortons first year in the league.

I don't want you to get the impression that I am against change with this so I will say that I liked where we were going right up to the time that I heard cutler was involved in trade talks. That doesn't change if we only listened. All the same to me. Dumb.

Gcver2ver3
09-03-2009, 09:28 AM
Yeah, the entire one media outlet he went to the one time is an insane number. Or maybe you count it as two because he gave a couple sentence comment when they bugged him at a basketball game.

one media outlet?...

do you even have cable?...

if so, you may wanna upgrade from that one channel package you're sportin...

jhns
09-03-2009, 09:35 AM
one media outlet?...

do you even have cable?...

if so, you may wanna upgrade from that one channel package you're sportin...

Why don't you show me one or two interviews he gave during that time? Show me a single one other than the ones I mentioned. The first being the original cry "I can't believe they want to trade me" and the second being the basketball game.

BTW, I have direct tv with every sports channel available.

bloodsunday
09-03-2009, 09:38 AM
I also don't agree with this late season collapse theory. We have had a crazy number of injuries the last couple of years and we collapsed after those injuries. That can be blamed on depth which has been a problem. This team was still very good though and it was rebuilding. While rebuilding it looked like a very good team that could win 10 games last year before the injuries. This offense was made up of rookie-third year players and looked amazing. Of course they made youthful mistakes.
You are being delusional -- no offense. We really only had significant injuries at one position, running back. And while those injuries were large in number, not one of those guys was anything more than a journeyman player. What really caused our collapse last year was a defense that was already awful and trending the wrong way. Combine that with a gun-slinger QB that thinks he has to score on every drive because he knows how bad his defense is, and you get shaky decision making at the QB decision. (And I'm being kind to Cutler, it's likely he would have made those same dumb decisions with a decent defense.) People like to reflect and believe that if Hillis doesn't go down, maybe we make the playoffs. Perhaps we would have eeked out one more win and backed in. But how bad would Indy have beaten us? Honestly.

Our defense has been bad and getting worse the last 3 years under Shanahan. I love how people think he was going to turn it around in one season and make this an 11 - 5 team. That's crazy. The guy couldn't even settle on a coordinator to run the defense, let alone pick a scheme or quality players to execute it.

Things are as they appear more times than not. I have seen our players play and it isn't like this is ortons first year in the league.
I agree with the general premise that what you see is what you get. And I think its looks bleak right now. But Detroit went 4 - 0 last season and Indy went 0 - 4. That doesn't mean I think we'll win 12 games. But it does mean we could be better than 3 or 4 wins as many believe. And (gasp) maybe this team will get better as the season goes on. Perhaps with some chemistry, better learning of the playbook under game conditions, development of young players we'll actually be a better team at the end of the year than the beginning. Wouldn't that be something?!

I don't want you to get the impression that I am against change with this so I will say that I liked where we were going right up to the time that I heard cutler was involved in trade talks. That doesn't change if we only listened. All the same to me. Dumb.
Let's do everyone a favor an put Culter behind us. It's over. And to be honest there is so much he-said-he-said going on, it's just about pure unknown on our part as to what really happened. Again, it sucks and I wish we could get a do-over. But we can't. Let's see how this team plays under a different QB. Orton has more wins than Cutler and has led a team to the playoffs. He may not be sexy, but that doesn't mean we can't win with him.

And once again, I'd like to point out that while Cutler has "all the tools" of a "franchise QB", he led the league last year in poor decision making. He also hasn't been on a winning team in nearly a decade. So we lost a lot of potential and a lot "face", but did we actually lose a lot of production? Let's wait and see.

jhns
09-03-2009, 09:45 AM
You are being delusional -- no offense. We really only had significant injuries at one position, running back. And while those injuries were large in number, not one of those guys was anything more than a journeyman player. What really caused our collapse last year was a defense that was already awful and trending the wrong way. Combine that with a gun-slinger QB that thinks he has to score on every drive because he knows how bad his defense is, and you get shaky decision making at the QB decision. (And I'm being kind to Cutler, it's likely he would have made those same dumb decisions with a decent defense.) People like to reflect and believe that if Hillis doesn't go down, maybe we make the playoffs. Perhaps we would have eeked out one more win and backed in. But how bad would Indy have beaten us? Honestly.

Our defense has been bad and getting worse the last 3 years under Shanahan. I love how people think he was going to turn it around in one season and make this an 11 - 5 team. That's crazy. The guy couldn't even settle on a coordinator to run the defense, let alone pick a scheme or quality players to execute it.


I agree with the general premise that what you see is what you get. And I think its looks bleak right now. But Detroit went 4 - 0 last season and Indy went 0 - 4. That doesn't mean I think we'll win 12 games. But it does mean we could be better than 3 or 4 wins as many believe. And (gasp) maybe this team will get better as the season goes on. Perhaps with some chemistry, better learning of the playbook under game conditions, development of young players we'll actually be a better team at the end of the year than the beginning. Wouldn't that be something?!


Let's do everyone a favor an put Culter behind us. It's over. And to be honest there is so much he-said-he-said going on, it's just about pure unknown on our part as to what really happened. Again, it sucks and I wish we could get a do-over. But we can't. Let's see how this team plays under a different QB. Orton has more wins than Cutler and has led a team to the playoffs. He may not be sexy, but that doesn't mean we can't win with him.

And once again, I'd like to point out that while Cutler has "all the tools" of a "franchise QB", he led the league last year in poor decision making. He also hasn't been on a winning team in nearly a decade. So we lost a lot of potential and a lot "face", but did we actually lose a lot of production? Let's wait and see.

Only RB? Half our defense was on IR by the end of the year. The few that weren't were injured multiple games and not the same after (champ, DJ). We had injuries at reciever and TE. Our QB even got injured in NE but that was only for that game. The season before we had the most players on IR in the league. I wouldn't be surprised if it that is true for last year. What team were you watching?

bloodsunday
09-03-2009, 09:48 AM
Only RB? Half our defense was on IR by the end of the year. The few that weren't were injured multiple games and not the same after (champ, DJ). We had injuries at reciever and TE. Our QB even got injured in NE but that was only for that game. The season before we had the most players on IR in the league. I wouldn't be surprised if it that is true for last year. What team were you watching?

But how many of those players mattered? This "core" players, with the exception of Champ, played most of the season.

Some time teams put guys on IR because they are injured and they don't think they are worth bringing back -- like everyone one of our safeties last year! :thanku:

TheReverend
09-03-2009, 09:50 AM
McDaniels has it rough because HE and HE alone made it rough on himself.

jhns
09-03-2009, 09:52 AM
But how many of those players mattered? This "core" players, with the exception of Champ, played most of the season.

Some time teams put guys on IR because they are injured and they don't think they are worth bringing back -- like everyone one of our safeties last year! :thanku:

So playing with one secondary starter, no starting lbs, and a with a d-lineman out all at the same time doesn't affect anything? I disagree. The collapse started at this exact part of the season. Even with those we started doing ok again until hillis went down. Then dj and champ came back and we finished our season with no more wins.

scorpio
09-03-2009, 10:23 AM
end thread.

You say that in a lot of threads but they keep going.

:ouwknow:

KCStud
09-03-2009, 11:19 AM
I'd say McDip**** has it bad than all those coaches except Cable. Haley is a former OC. He is a good at calling plays for the offense. Morris, like Haley, has the attention and trust of his players.

McDip**** has his best players wanting out and has no obedience instilled in the team as seen by the neverending flags your team drew against the Bears.

PRBronco
09-03-2009, 11:29 AM
My team's starting left tackle is a guard.


I appreciate you coming by, but I really don't see what this has to do with the thread?

Rulon Velvet Jones
09-03-2009, 11:57 AM
I'd say McDip**** has it bad than all those coaches except Cable. Haley is a former OC. He is a good at calling plays for the offense. Morris, like Haley, has the attention and trust of his players.

McDip**** has his best players wanting out and has no obedience instilled in the team as seen by the neverending flags your team drew against the Bears.

Haley is a former OC?!! Well, congratulations. So was McDaniels, though he fared a little better.

And to glean this team has "no obedience" by the number of flags drawn is just asinine. You think Clady is going to have a large number of flags this season because of his play last weekend?

KCStud
09-03-2009, 10:31 PM
My teams QB is a poor man's Jake Plummer

Thanks for the observation

ScottXray
09-03-2009, 10:39 PM
The difference is those other coaches started out in a rough situation. Mcdaniels came to a pretty good situation and made it rough himself. I still can't understand fans actually defending his offseason moves. A couple more years of these decisions and we won't recover for a LONG time.

It will probably already be a long time actually. We aren't winning with a system QB any time soon. You need a good defense, special teams, and run game for that. We aren't getting an established QB because nobody in this league is as dumb as mcdaniels. So that leaves us with drafting a QB. Say we get one that works out next offseason, we still will have some years of development. Otherwise we get to wait about that same time for our defense to turn into one of the best. This is assuming they can scout and develope talent.

I am still waiting to wake up and realize I have just been having a horrible nightmare.

So tonight we saw good defense , special teams and the start of a good run game. Overall, a complete game, although the red zone worries are still there.

PS game yes, but a shut out is a shut out and it was against ALL three strings of AZ. They NEVER threatened, no matter who was in there. The D is greatly improved against a team thats best side is their O.

Special teams were good, too.

If Moreno comes through we've got all three of the things you said we need for a system QB to succeed. I'm not saying Orton is the guy, but it is looking up if TB can keep developing and Orton can be adequate. Yes, he's still a stop gap.

baja
09-03-2009, 11:09 PM
The fact is, if he doesn't trade cutler none of the national press is on him...

It wasn't McD that said,"jay is the man around here'' than traded his ass.

Mr. Trout
09-03-2009, 11:11 PM
Way to put a positive spin on it. I would like to think Bronco fans expect more of their team than the Chiefs or Raiders.

footstepsfrom#27
09-03-2009, 11:29 PM
Cable commits attempted murder in the meeting room, drafted Heyward-Bey, has a 400-lb QB and has Al Davis meddling constantly.
Technically Cable's not a rookie HC.

Broncos4tw
09-04-2009, 08:09 AM
I don't hate him at all. I think he does have a strong "will to win," and I do think he is smarter than the average bear, and will be an excellent HC someday. I also think his ego and the Patriots success got a bit much into his head, and we are seeing some of the results. He is demanding respect although he hasn't done a thing for the team yet, and so yea, that's going to rub many the wrong way (including players).

I'm also not sold on the "system" Good systems don't come around that often for a reason. The WCO was the last real "system" that showed up. Was the Patriots really the product of a great system? Or did they have a solid mix of vets, an excellent HC in Bilicheat, wonderful chemistry and just that right mix of skilled players? Personally I think the latter. But... who knows, maybe I'm wrong. So far though, I'm underwhelmed.

But I'm willing to give him many games into the regular season before I judge too harshly. I do think he made the very wrong decision with Cutler. During that fateful meeting, he should have been kissing Cutler's ass if need be, to make him comfortable and welcome, even if it was just lip service. So what if Cutler is moody or whiny? He is also one of the top QBs in the NFL, and you don't simply wash your hands of him because you don't think he "meshes" well with you as a coach.

He should NOT trade Marshall. He needs to send the right message to the team.

Rulon Velvet Jones
09-04-2009, 08:21 AM
Technically Cable's not a rookie HC.

Technically, he'll be referred to as one until he completes a full season.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writers/don_banks/03/31/new-coaches/1.html

TheDave
09-04-2009, 08:49 AM
It wasn't McD that said,"jay is the man around here'' than traded his ass.

I've said this before...

Pat Bowlen always gives his coaches everything they need to be successful. He isn't a Jerry Jones or Al Davis type of owner. If McKidd wanted him he would still be here.

Rohirrim
09-04-2009, 08:52 AM
The difference is those other coaches started out in a rough situation. Mcdaniels came to a pretty good situation and made it rough himself. I still can't understand fans actually defending his offseason moves. A couple more years of these decisions and we won't recover for a LONG time.

It will probably already be a long time actually. We aren't winning with a system QB any time soon. You need a good defense, special teams, and run game for that. We aren't getting an established QB because nobody in this league is as dumb as mcdaniels. So that leaves us with drafting a QB. Say we get one that works out next offseason, we still will have some years of development. Otherwise we get to wait about that same time for our defense to turn into one of the best. This is assuming they can scout and develope talent.

I am still waiting to wake up and realize I have just been having a horrible nightmare.

Obviously, you missed the last three games last season. Oh, and that Raiders debacle as well. Pretty good situation? Puhleeze. I guess some of the Cutler ball-swingers think his presence was also going to somehow fix one of the worst Ds in the NFL.

Rohirrim
09-04-2009, 08:54 AM
It wasn't McD that said,"jay is the man around here'' than traded his ass.

It's like banging on a steel hatch. ;D

jhns
09-04-2009, 09:00 AM
Obviously, you missed the last three games last season. Oh, and that Raiders debacle as well. Pretty good situation? Puhleeze. I guess some of the Cutler ball-swingers think his presence was also going to somehow fix one of the worst Ds in the NFL.

You obviously missed the very large number of injuries that made our team collapse, just as the year before. Seriously, we are playing well and take a ton of injuries and then start loseing. The injuries were not just to) either. We had one secondary starter, no starting LBs, and even a starting D-lineman out at one point. Some of those guys came back and weren't nearly as good after. The collapse isn't some mental breakdown.

Also, last year we had a rookie-third year offense. I agree we needed to make some changes but just because of that I don't think every change is good. That thinking is dumb. We needed a new d-coordinator and a new coach if shanahan didn't want to get one. We then also needed some experience and a durable) on offense. Tell me how creating a hole at the most important position in football(QB) helps our team? Your solution to fix problems is create bigger ones?

TheDave
09-04-2009, 09:08 AM
It's like banging on a steel hatch. ;D

Once again...

Pat Bowlen always gives his coaches everything they need to be successful. He isn't a Jerry Jones or Al Davis type of owner. If McKidd wanted him he would still be here.

Br0nc0Buster
09-04-2009, 09:10 AM
I've said this before...

Pat Bowlen always gives his coaches everything they need to be successful. He isn't a Jerry Jones or Al Davis type of owner. If McKidd wanted him he would still be here.

There is a difference between wanting him and not caring one way or another if he stayed

Josh did say his plan was to keep Jay and talk to him over camp

At the same time Josh is obviously comfortable enough in the "system" to run it without Jay

TheDave
09-04-2009, 09:17 AM
There is a difference between wanting him and not caring one way or another if he stayed

Josh did say his plan was to keep Jay and talk to him over camp

At the same time Josh is obviously comfortable enough in the "system" to run it without Jay

Exactly... so he gets to share in the blame.

I just find it very comical that as time goes on and this trade looks worse and worse, now people are trying to distance the head coach from it.

Nice try... In Broncoland the head coach has all the power. If he wanted him here he would still be here.

chex
09-04-2009, 09:23 AM
In Broncoland the head coach has all the power.

Not anymore.

Bowlen had enough of Shanahan having all the power. It's why he was fired, because Shanahan wouldn't fire Bob friggin Slowik. Bowlen wanted more involvement, and frankly, who could blame him when the team had one playoff win in 10 years to show for its power structure?

Know how people like to say you can't blame Cutler for his 17-20 record because he had a ****ty defense? That wasn't changing anytime soon under Shanahan. Slowik is attached to his hip.

footstepsfrom#27
09-04-2009, 09:27 AM
Technically, he'll be referred to as one until he completes a full season.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writers/don_banks/03/31/new-coaches/1.html
Well Don Banks and I disagree, and who says Cable gets to complete a whole season? Al(zheimers) could ****can him at any time just because he feels like it. Or he could go off his rocker and shoot somebody.

Br0nc0Buster
09-04-2009, 11:27 AM
Exactly... so he gets to share in the blame.

I just find it very comical that as time goes on and this trade looks worse and worse, now people are trying to distance the head coach from it.

Nice try... In Broncoland the head coach has all the power. If he wanted him here he would still be here.

Well he did say though his plan was to keep Jay, but Pat overruled him

Yes if he really really wanted Jay then Jay would not of been traded, but that still doesnt mean it is his fault Jay is gone

I put blame where blame lies, the guy who forced the issue(Jay), and the guy who made the call(Pat)
I guess Josh can maybe get a sliver of blame, but he is way behind those 2 IMO

TheDave
09-04-2009, 11:29 AM
Not anymore.

Bowlen had enough of Shanahan having all the power. It's why he was fired, because Shanahan wouldn't fire Bob friggin Slowik. Bowlen wanted more involvement, and frankly, who could blame him when the team had one playoff win in 10 years to show for its power structure?

Know how people like to say you can't blame Cutler for his 17-20 record because he had a ****ty defense? That wasn't changing anytime soon under Shanahan. Slowik is attached to his hip.

This has been debunked so many times I don't know what else to say...

TheDave
09-04-2009, 11:38 AM
Well he did say though his plan was to keep Jay, but Pat overruled him

Yes if he really really wanted Jay then Jay would not of been traded, but that still doesnt mean it is his fault Jay is gone

I put blame where blame lies, the guy who forced the issue(Jay), and the guy who made the call(Pat)
I guess Josh can maybe get a sliver of blame, but he is way behind those 2 IMO

Here's how this works if I'm the coach...

Bowlen: Dave that little prick Cutler didn't call me back... trade him.

Dave: What?

Bowlen: You heard me, no one is bigger than the team and I'm sick of this prick bastard sulking.

Dave: OK... Uhmmm. Listen Mr. B the QB position is real important and even though Jay is a bit of a prick bastard he's also one of the most talented prick bastards I've ever seen.

Bowlen: Doesn't matter you worked wonders with Matt Cassel you can do the same here.

Dave: Yeah but I worked with Matt for 3 years before he hit the field. Look if we trade this guy who/what are we going to get for him? What happens if our best off is Kyle Orton and a couple of picks? Do you realize how ****ed we would be?

Bowlen: So then it's done... Orton for Cutler

Dave: Were ****ed

Br0nc0Buster
09-04-2009, 12:14 PM
Here's how this works if I'm the coach...

Bowlen: Dave that little prick Cutler didn't call me back... trade him.

Dave: What?

Bowlen: You heard me, no one is bigger than the team and I'm sick of this prick bastard sulking.

Dave: OK... Uhmmm. Listen Mr. B the QB position is real important and even though Jay is a bit of a prick bastard he's also one of the most talented prick bastards I've ever seen.

Bowlen: Doesn't matter you worked wonders with Matt Cassel you can do the same here.

Dave: Yeah but I worked with Matt for 3 years before he hit the field. Look if we trade this guy who/what are we going to get for him? What happens if our best off is Kyle Orton and a couple of picks? Do you realize how ****ed we would be?

Bowlen: So then it's done... Orton for Cutler

Dave: Were ****ed

I still dont see how the blame lies at the feet of Josh
You think it was a horrible move, so if I will compare it to drunk driving then

If your friend gets wasted and then drives somewhere and gets in a wreck, is it your fault that it happened?
Even if you knew he was drunk and didnt stop him from driving, it isnt your fault the wreck occured, perhaps you were a bit neglegent, but you wont be in any sort of trouble

Josh let it happen knowing what could happen, perhaps a bit neglegent if you believe that the trade was a bad one, but nonetheless he wasnt the one driving

TheDave
09-04-2009, 12:26 PM
I still dont see how the blame lies at the feet of Josh
You think it was a horrible move, so if I will compare it to drunk driving then

If your friend gets wasted and then drives somewhere and gets in a wreck, is it your fault that it happened?
Even if you knew he was drunk and didnt stop him from driving, it isnt your fault the wreck occured, perhaps you were a bit neglegent, but you wont be in any sort of trouble

Josh let it happen knowing what could happen, perhaps a bit neglegent if you believe that the trade was a bad one, but nonetheless he wasnt the one driving

The drunk drive anaolgy doesn't make any sense...

Don't try to over complicate this... In this organization the Head Coach has all the power. It has always been this way. Unless you can show me examples of that no longer being the case then we are left to assume it is still how things are done.

Therefore If McDaniels has all the power then the decision to trade Cutler utimately rests with... drumroll... McDaniels.

Now don't get me wrong Cutler and Bowlen played their parts in this cluster ****. But the decision maker in all this is the head coach.

If Ayers turns into LT and cutler goes off to fail in Chicago he will get the lions share of the credit.

If not... he will get the lions share of the blame.

Br0nc0Buster
09-04-2009, 12:32 PM
The drunk drive anaolgy doesn't make any sense...

Don't try to over complicate this... In this organization the Head Coach has all the power. It has always been this way. Unless you can show me examples of that no longer being the case then we are left to assume it is still how things are done.

Therefore If McDaniels has all the power then the decision to trade Cutler utimately rests with... drumroll... McDaniels.

Now don't get me wrong Cutler and Bowlen played their parts in this cluster ****. But the decision maker in all this is the head coach.

If Ayers turns into LT and cutler goes off to fail in Chicago he will get the lions share of the credit.

If not... he will get the lions share of the blame.

no Bowlen has all the power
If Josh made the call I dont see why he would then be saying he wanted to keep Jay
Why would he backtrack on his own decision before even a single game has been played?

And he said this mind you before even the draft took place, at that time the public opinion seemed to favor us as the victor of the deal

TheDave
09-04-2009, 12:34 PM
no Bowlen has all the power
If Josh made the call I dont see why he would then be saying he wanted to keep Jay
Why would he backtrack on his own decision before even a single game has been played?

And he said this mind you before even the draft took place, at that time the public opinion seemed to favor us as the victor of the deal

Name a time (other than this) where Pat Bowlen got in the middle of the Football operations and told a coach what to do?

Mind you, I believe he said to trade him.

McDaniels answer should have been ... NO.

Mr.Meanie
09-04-2009, 12:38 PM
Name a time (other than this) where Pat Bowlen got in the middle of the Football operations and told a coach what to do?

Mind you, I believe he said to trade him.

McDaniels answer should have been ... NO.

Why on earth would McD stick his neck out for someone who didn't even want to play for him? He's obviously not a complete imbecile....

jhns
09-04-2009, 12:41 PM
Why on earth would McD stick his neck out for someone who didn't even want to play for him? He's obviously not a complete imbecile....

Maybe so he didn't have to have a QB battle between Orton, Simms, and Brandstater? He obviously isn't as smart as you think he is.

ScottXray
09-04-2009, 12:43 PM
Why on earth would McD stick his neck out for someone who didn't even want to play for him? He's obviously not a complete imbecile....

right. and Dave....

Don't forget that Bowlen had just FIRED a coach that he had let run things for 14 years....unexpectedly. So the rookie HC is going to telll the owner ...**** off... that's a bad idea?

Let me guess ...you don't play well with others?

Mr.Meanie
09-04-2009, 12:46 PM
Maybe so he didn't have to have a QB battle between Orton, Simms, and Brandstater? He obviously isn't as smart as you think he is.

His choices at the time were:

1. Defy the owner and risk your job and in return you get a petulant hothead who already doesn't want to play for you, or;

2. Orton, Simms, 2 1st rounders and a 3rd, and keep your job.

He chose #2. Doesn't sound stupid to me...

Br0nc0Buster
09-04-2009, 12:52 PM
Name a time (other than this) where Pat Bowlen got in the middle of the Football operations and told a coach what to do?

Mind you, I believe he said to trade him.

McDaniels answer should have been ... NO.

I dont know how much input Bowlen has the product on the field, but I do remember Bowlen saying he was going to get a little more involved after Shanny was fired
I dont know to what extent, I dont think he is gonna be in there when they are cutting players, but I think he meant to the extent that decisions run through him for the "OK"

I wasnt there in the meetings between him and Josh about Jay, I cant speculate on what was said or if Bowlen demanded anything

But here is what we know:
Bowlen said the decision to trade Jay was his
Josh said his plan was to keep Jay and talk to him during camp

So either they are both lying, or that is how it went down
And I dont see the point in lying or to deflect blame in this situation given that again at the time of the trade the majority seemed to think Denver got the better end of the deal

TheDave
09-04-2009, 12:55 PM
Why on earth would McD stick his neck out for someone who didn't even want to play for him? He's obviously not a complete imbecile....

He would have been an "imbecile" for telling his boss we need cutler?

Gee, 'cause I think the imbecile part would be telling your boss you could win just as well with Orton.

TheDave
09-04-2009, 12:56 PM
right. and Dave....

Don't forget that Bowlen had just FIRED a coach that he had let run things for 14 years....unexpectedly. So the rookie HC is going to telll the owner ...**** off... that's a bad idea?

Let me guess ...you don't play well with others?

Believe it or not... there is ground between "Yes sir" and "Go **** yourself"

TheDave
09-04-2009, 12:59 PM
I dont know how much input Bowlen has the product on the field, but I do remember Bowlen saying he was going to get a little more involved after Shanny was fired
I dont know to what extent, I dont think he is gonna be in there when they are cutting players, but I think he meant to the extent that decisions run through him for the "OK"

I wasnt there in the meetings between him and Josh about Jay, I cant speculate on what was said or if Bowlen demanded anything

But here is what we know:
Bowlen said the decision to trade Jay was his
Josh said his plan was to keep Jay and talk to him during camp

So either they are both lying, or that is how it went down
And I dont see the point in lying or to deflect blame in this situation given that again at the time of the trade the majority seemed to think Denver got the better end of the deal

Spin this however you want... You agree the coach has some culpability in this. All we are doing is arguing degrees.

Mr.Meanie
09-04-2009, 01:01 PM
He would have been an "imbecile" for telling his boss we need cutler?

1. He would have been an imbecile for flat out telling his boss no, as you suggested.

2. How do you know he didn't try to pacify the situation in the meeting with Bowlen? You don't...

jhns
09-04-2009, 01:07 PM
His choices at the time were:

1. Defy the owner and risk your job and in return you get a petulant hothead who already doesn't want to play for you, or;

2. Orton, Simms, 2 1st rounders and a 3rd, and keep your job.

He chose #2. Doesn't sound stupid to me...

You think playing these guys over cutler saves his job? Wait until the season plays out. That statement will make you laugh as much as I just did.

I still don't get where people get this idea that bowlen makes these decisions. Just as he said he made this one he also said he made every decision since being here. Why do you guys blame shanahan for the decisions of the past 15 years but blame bowlen for this one? He owned up to all of them the same.....

TheDave
09-04-2009, 01:19 PM
1. He would have been an imbecile for flat out telling his boss no, as you suggested.

2. How do you know he didn't try to pacify the situation in the meeting with Bowlen? You don't...

And you are speculating that Bowlen came in and demanded his coach do what he wanted... Something Bowlen has never done before.

and I gaurantee he will lose his job much quicker with Orton than he would have with Cutler... He should have found a way to keep him.

colonelbeef
09-04-2009, 02:05 PM
McDaniels has it rough because HE and HE alone made it rough on himself.

this. he landed the best job available in the game this year by a longshot and proceeded to completely fack it up.