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Mediator12
09-03-2009, 07:05 AM
Here is another excellent article on the Broncos defense:

I'm making a pretty bold pronouncement. I do not believe that the Denver Broncos are running a true 3-4 defense at all, despite what the mainstream media may be reporting. I believe that the Broncos are running a 5-2, and I believe this for more than one reason. Below the fold, I will explain why I believe this to be true, and I will also explain some concepts about the 5-2 and also the system that seems to be emerging in Denver. I will also cover counters, as well as personnel considerations.

I have also received a lot of requests for information about the 5-2 under other posts. If I've left out a question, please accept my apologies and post it under this story. I will do my best to get to every question.



Defining the 5-2
Allow me to borrow from a comment I made under another post...

There are two ways to look at how a player is defined. Coaches will argue this point until they are blue in the face.

1. A player is strictly defined by where he lines up. If Peyton Hillis lines up in the slot, he is a slot receiver – period.

2. A player is defined by the position he is best suited for and defined by the team as. If Hillis lines up in the slot he is "a HB lined up in the slot".

My training placed me in the second camp, but there are very good coaches who were brought up either way.

Now back to the 5-2. My point was that, regardless of which school of though you come from, the Broncos are running a 5-2. Here’s why….

If you belong to the first camp – we have five players on the line. By definition, five on the line is automatically a 5-2.

If you belong to the second camp (mine) – we are using true DEs at DE, NOT OLBs! If we were some kind of 3-4 with the OLBs cheating up to the line, it might be a trickier analysis. But we aren’t! We’re not training guys like Elvis Dumervil or Tim Crowder to play at OLB at all! They’re playing their natural role as DEs on the line! (If Doom plays like an OLB, it is only because he’ll get dropped back in a zone blitz, or because the formation changes).

For me to see this unfolding and to realize what was going on was like a light turning on. In another words, no matter how you slice it (and reasonable people will slice it in different ways), this HAS to be a 5-2.




http://www.milehighreport.com/2009/9/2/1010580/mhr-university-the-denver-broncos

Mediator12
09-03-2009, 07:09 AM
HT makes a great argument for why the run defense has looked OK to this point in the season and why the sheer amount of DL trumps the talent level there versus playing a 3-4 alignment.

What he fails to address is the fact that the Spread formations, with proper protection, can easily exploit this scheme and so can twins and trips WR formations with proper gameplanning. Overall, he always does a good job of breaking down the X's and O's for the masses.

ColoradoDarin
09-03-2009, 07:16 AM
HT makes a great argument for why the run defense has looked OK to this point in the season and why the sheer amount of DL trumps the talent level there versus playing a 3-4 alignment.

What he fails to address is the fact that the Spread formations, with proper protection, can easily exploit this scheme and so can twins and trips WR formations with proper gameplanning. Overall, he always does a good job of breaking down the X's and O's for the masses.

Actually he does discuss the weaknesses against the spread (4 and 5 WR) in the comment section, basically we'd be in nickel or dime then anyways, just like we would be if we ran a base 3-4 or 4-3.

HEAV
09-03-2009, 07:22 AM
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TheDave
09-03-2009, 07:30 AM
Great read!

I really like the simplicity of a 5-2. We have some raw talent on the defense. Using a simple approach, especially this season will give us a better chance to allow that talent to think less and just play.

My fear is what happens mid season... If this defense can learn and grow we might be able to add more and more "scheme" to help them out once that brutal stretch of 8 games is upon us.

If they are still behind the learning curve a 5-2 will get picked apart... Screens, Spread formations, and a good TE will make us look slow and stupid.

I like the way nolan put this together... Lets hope these guys keep learning and the scheme can diversify more as the season progresses.

meangene
09-03-2009, 07:33 AM
Great article! What I find interesting is that this would make a guy like David Harris even more valuable because he is much more versatile and better in coverage than Davis. It appears the scheme is well matched to our personnel and the best scheme to compensate for some of our personnel weaknesses. It also makes clearer the reasons for the free agency pickups and some of the draft picks. What we have seen in preseason seems to bear out the strengths and weaknesses of the system. As the players adjust and learn the system, we should be able to mix things up more and more to create confusion for opposing offenses.

HEAV
09-03-2009, 07:47 AM
Only thing is Ayers isn't starting at either OLB position. Mario Haggan has been the starting @ left outside backer and he has been dropping into coverage. That fact that both he and Doom are rushing the passer is more about creating pressure and trying to force turnovers.

So in that sense it looks like a 5-2 but it's still a 3-4 base.

McDman
09-03-2009, 07:48 AM
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Why the hell did they even make that video? All they did was explain the name.

McDman
09-03-2009, 07:49 AM
I'm pretty sure a true 5-2 has 5 down lineman. We leave our outside two standing, so it's just a 3-4.

Rohirrim
09-03-2009, 07:51 AM
One of the talking heads brought this up last week, how Carson Palmer can fry this set up over the middle. He'll take what you give him all day. I suppose you can make the 5-2 argument just on play to play, but I wonder if this setup is just being used to transition Dumervil into a new position. Kind of give him some back up. I'll be curious to see if that's how Nolan lines them up against Palmer.

barryr
09-03-2009, 07:52 AM
I don't know, it seems many times, this defense still looks more like a 4-3 defense than anything else. At least lining up that way against the Bears, I saw mostly 4 on the line of scrimmage. I was hoping for a more complex scheme, but hopefully waiting for the regular season to show that.

tsiguy96
09-03-2009, 07:53 AM
i think regardless of the scheme, the team is going to struggle against TEs and RBs in coverage. we have 4 LBs who cant cover, easily the biggest weakness of the defense this year

Tombstone RJ
09-03-2009, 07:56 AM
Here is another excellent article on the Broncos defense:

I'm making a pretty bold pronouncement. I do not believe that the Denver Broncos are running a true 3-4 defense at all, despite what the mainstream media may be reporting. I believe that the Broncos are running a 5-2, and I believe this for more than one reason. Below the fold, I will explain why I believe this to be true, and I will also explain some concepts about the 5-2 and also the system that seems to be emerging in Denver. I will also cover counters, as well as personnel considerations.

I have also received a lot of requests for information about the 5-2 under other posts. If I've left out a question, please accept my apologies and post it under this story. I will do my best to get to every question.








http://www.milehighreport.com/2009/9/2/1010580/mhr-university-the-denver-broncos

Well duh.

It's not friggen secret the Broncos employ the 5-2. Hell, just watch the damn games you see a 5-2, 5-2, 5-2, all the time.

The Broncos are "transitioning" into a 3-4.

bendog
09-03-2009, 07:59 AM
The article says the 5-2 can "morph" to a 3-4. Well duh. Nolan is not going to rush 5 down linemen and try and cover with a straight mix of two corners, two safeties, and linebackers. .... So Den is NOT running a 5-2.

SonOfLe-loLang
09-03-2009, 08:18 AM
Haven't we been saying this since the go though? Doesn't Baltimore kind of run the same thing? (i cant imagnie Terrell Suggs and Jarrett Johnson) are real linebackers when they are both D-lineman (one a d-tackle!) by trade.

Mediator12
09-03-2009, 08:28 AM
Well, duh! Beautiful response, that lacks all kinds of depth.

1. The 5-2 covers the fact the DL suck balls and uses sheer numbers to keep the running game from gouging the inside runs like last year. The 3-4 requires much better DL than DEN has to execute at the POA.

2. The LB's roles are simplified, versus the multiple variants the 3-4 employs. Its a KISS system versus a complex one the 3-4 brings. That fits DEN's intellectually challenged LB's that are constantly slow to read the play.

3. The secondary has got to be very solid in coverage versus base and multiple WR sets. That is why they got the Secondary players they did.

4. This is the first time in 2 years the scheme fits the personnel, instead of trying to cram square peg in a round hole.

But yeah, well DUH!

bendog
09-03-2009, 08:33 AM
Well, sort of. Den at present doesn't really have true 3-4 linebackers. But in the old days when Den ran 3-4's ... not all 3-4's are the same, as you say. Simon Fletcher was more a sack specialist than the 3-4 type guy of the orange crush - TJ and Bob Swenson. Swenson was perhaps the best pure pass coverage linebacker in Bronco history.

Parcells and Billicheat run different schemes. Billicheat uses more dline talent, and mixes in guys who are more tweaners as linebackers, while Parcells needs Andre Ware/Lawrence Taylor types.

But a pure 5-2 is more of a youth football scheme, with the front 5 having dedicated roles. Not much sophistication to it. But the article is good for pointing out where Nolan is fitting in the guys ... like Ayers. But, bottom line somebody better be able to zone cover and Nolan better have some zone blitzes. Seeing how Moreno and Nolan work out are pretty much the only positive reasons to watch, that I can see.

Tombstone RJ
09-03-2009, 08:36 AM
Well, duh! Beautiful response, that lacks all kinds of depth.

1. The 5-2 covers the fact the DL suck balls and uses sheer numbers to keep the running game from gouging the inside runs like last year. The 3-4 requires much better DL than DEN has to execute at the POA.

2. The LB's roles are simplified, versus the multiple variants the 3-4 employs. Its a KISS system versus a complex one the 3-4 brings. That fits DEN's intellectually challenged LB's that are constantly slow to read the play.

3. The secondary has got to be very solid in coverage versus base and multiple WR sets. That is why they got the Secondary players they did.

4. This is the first time in 2 years the scheme fits the personnel, instead of trying to cram square peg in a round hole.

But yeah, well DUH!


You started this thread like you were spreading some kind of wonderful knowledge about the Broncos' defense. Like this whole crazy "5-2" thingy needs some esssplaining!

Well duh.

ghwk
09-03-2009, 08:42 AM
5-2, 3-4, 4-3, 10-2 (if we cheat) the results will be better than last year. Not by much but it will be better. Better teams and QB's exploited our defense last year and will do it again this year. We just aren't where we want to be defensively and there isn't a person or fan in the league who doesn't know that. I'll be happy if at the end of the season the comments run along the lines of

"Hey they did damn well with what they had"

That will be my definition of success for the year.

~Crash~
09-03-2009, 09:12 AM
5-2 is Peewee football at its best . sounds like slowic was not far off with what will work with our players we had .

~Crash~
09-03-2009, 09:13 AM
the big difference this year tackling .

TheReverend
09-03-2009, 09:39 AM
Old news...

June:

"linemen Ryan McBean, Ronald Fields and Kenny Peterson; OLBs Tim Crowder and Robert Ayers; ILBs D.J. Williams and Andra Davis"

Good to know our base D is more 52 than 34... /wrists

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=81244&highlight=crowder

TheReverend
09-03-2009, 09:42 AM
In terms of being technical, it's been more of a 4-3 over front than anything.

Popps
09-03-2009, 09:43 AM
Didn't Nolan run some of this in Baltimore?


He's professed to the notion that we'll see multiple formations on a regular basis. Seems like he's telling the truth.

I like what I've seen so far. Excited to see how things improve as guys get more comfortable, and as younger guys like Ayers develop into contributors.

fontaine
09-03-2009, 09:43 AM
What he fails to address is the fact that the Spread formations, with proper protection, can easily exploit this scheme** and so can twins and trips WR formations with proper gameplanning.


**Just like they can exploit any D scheme, not just the 5-2.

Good takes Med.

Rohirrim
09-03-2009, 09:50 AM
Well, duh! Beautiful response, that lacks all kinds of depth.

1. The 5-2 covers the fact the DL suck balls and uses sheer numbers to keep the running game from gouging the inside runs like last year. The 3-4 requires much better DL than DEN has to execute at the POA.

2. The LB's roles are simplified, versus the multiple variants the 3-4 employs. Its a KISS system versus a complex one the 3-4 brings. That fits DEN's intellectually challenged LB's that are constantly slow to read the play.

3. The secondary has got to be very solid in coverage versus base and multiple WR sets. That is why they got the Secondary players they did.

4. This is the first time in 2 years the scheme fits the personnel, instead of trying to cram square peg in a round hole.

But yeah, well DUH!

Ha!

Wait a minute...

:pity:

TheReverend
09-03-2009, 09:51 AM
Didn't Nolan run some of this in Baltimore?


He's professed to the notion that we'll see multiple formations on a regular basis. Seems like he's telling the truth.

I like what I've seen so far. Excited to see how things improve as guys get more comfortable, and as younger guys like Ayers develop into contributors.

You're thinking of their failed 46 experiment.

That's a lot closer to the defense you saw last year vs Carolina than this one thus far.

broncosteven
09-03-2009, 10:02 AM
The one thing I noticed vs San Fran was that they were lining up 5 across, stunting the De's and dropping one into zone coverage.

Nolan ran it at least 3 times in a row and the starting QB picked up on it and kept the ball rushing for a 1st down on the ground.

Not only do they need to colapse the pocket but they need to force the QB to throw it away or get to him before he can run into the empty space on the field.

I am just not sure we have the inside players to get that pressure consistently yet.

I am hoping there are some new wrinkles that come out in RS. I still think we need more talent at traditional DT and DE's to collapse the pocket. Beyond Doom, I haven't seen anyone else that has been able to pass rush consistently yet.

bendog
09-03-2009, 10:08 AM
ok, i'm sorry. But I don't think it's a great insight that the dline and linebackers suck. yeah, Den's more or less in a 5-2, but that doesn't really say anything, because the 5-2 can still use the will, mike, sam names, and there's also the 5-2-monster. But, sure, ok, even I who've only seen two preseason games will agree that denver seems to be lining up 5 on the line, and yeah Dumerville isn't gonna be Tommy Jackson

Bottom line, they can rush 5 off the line and hope to god that Palmer, Romo, Brady, Eli, Rivers2x, Payton and McNabb can't hit guys being covered by six ... including Davis. Good luck with that. Or they have Hagen and Dummerville drop into zone coverage and zone blitz a lot. Simon Fletcher could do that. He was better in pass rush, but he had long arms and took up space, even though lateral movement wasn't this game. I will agree that this approach may be the best shot they have at stopping the run.

mwill07
09-03-2009, 10:17 AM
... I will agree that this approach may be the best shot they have at stopping the run.

which will be important for us...when we are down by 14 at halftime, the opposition won't be throwing a whole lot anyways. It all works out!

DomCasual
09-03-2009, 10:23 AM
ok, i'm sorry. But I don't think it's a great insight that the dline and linebackers suck. yeah, Den's more or less in a 5-2, but that doesn't really say anything, because the 5-2 can still use the will, mike, sam names, and there's also the 5-2-monster. But, sure, ok, even I who've only seen two preseason games will agree that denver seems to be lining up 5 on the line, and yeah Dumerville isn't gonna be Tommy Jackson

Bottom line, they can rush 5 off the line and hope to god that Palmer, Romo, Brady, Eli, Rivers2x, Payton and McNabb can't hit guys being covered by six ... including Davis. Good luck with that. Or they have Hagen and Dummerville drop into zone coverage and zone blitz a lot. Simon Fletcher could do that. He was better in pass rush, but he had long arms and took up space, even though lateral movement wasn't this game. I will agree that this approach may be the best shot they have at stopping the run.

Who are you, some kid posting from your parents' basement? Go back to school, Junior.

azbroncfan
09-03-2009, 10:23 AM
Well, duh! Beautiful response, that lacks all kinds of depth.

1. The 5-2 covers the fact the DL suck balls and uses sheer numbers to keep the running game from gouging the inside runs like last year. The 3-4 requires much better DL than DEN has to execute at the POA.

2. The LB's roles are simplified, versus the multiple variants the 3-4 employs. Its a KISS system versus a complex one the 3-4 brings. That fits DEN's intellectually challenged LB's that are constantly slow to read the play.

3. The secondary has got to be very solid in coverage versus base and multiple WR sets. That is why they got the Secondary players they did.

4. This is the first time in 2 years the scheme fits the personnel, instead of trying to cram square peg in a round hole.

But yeah, well DUH!

This is real similar to what AZ ran last year using 5 DL.

Lev Vyvanse
09-03-2009, 10:23 AM
Didn't Nolan run some of this in Baltimore?


He's professed to the notion that we'll see multiple formations on a regular basis. Seems like he's telling the truth.

I like what I've seen so far. Excited to see how things improve as guys get more comfortable, and as younger guys like Ayers develop into contributors.

This is how Pittsburgh lines up on a pretty consistent basis.

bendog
09-03-2009, 10:38 AM
hey dom, gotten game yet? lol

I just pop in here every year or so to bust you idiots who remained.

eddie mac
09-03-2009, 10:40 AM
Whatever it is, does anyone think it'll work enough to get us anywhere near competitive???

DomCasual
09-03-2009, 10:42 AM
hey dom, gotten game yet? lol

I just pop in here every year or so to bust you idiots who remained.

You're Francisco d'Antonia to my Dagny Taggert, I guess.

Crazy old codger! :)

bendog
09-03-2009, 10:57 AM
lol (-: I'm so damn old I can't use smileys

Bronco Yoda
09-03-2009, 11:26 AM
sure you can, take it from me... put your webcam sideways and flash a full moon. Then send it to TJ.

He loves it... hehe

Mediator12
09-03-2009, 11:36 AM
You started this thread like you were spreading some kind of wonderful knowledge about the Broncos' defense. Like this whole crazy "5-2" thingy needs some esssplaining!

Well duh.

NO, I started this thread to show HOW the New DC is utililizing his players better than in the past, using much better philosophy that simplifies the game for the idiotic front seven this team is forced to employ.

And I get this, well DUH response, from several solid posters trying to talk real football instead of wondering when the next childish WR will do something stupid.

I could get extremely technical here and go way over some people's heads, but this is what you get trying to infuse real football discussion into this perverted place I guess....

tsiguy96
09-03-2009, 11:38 AM
NO, I started this thread to show HOW the New DC is utililizing his players better than in the past, using much better philosophy that simplifies the game for the idiotic front seven this team is forced to employ.

And I get this, well DUH response, from several solid posters trying to talk real football instead of wondering when the next childish WR will do something stupid.

I could get extremely technical here and go way over some people's heads, but this is what you get trying to infuse real football discussion into this perverted place I guess....

:spit:

im very glad nolan is here, we may not see great results on the field, but the team atleast looks better than it has in the past and as he gets people to fill the roles he has, we may see drastic improvements next year, if he can get a blue chip LB and if say chris baker or ron fields can draw double teams.

HEAV
09-03-2009, 11:38 AM
Whatever it is, does anyone think it'll work enough to get us anywhere near competitive???

Yes.

Already seen solid things from the first team this preseason. Having Dawk on the field is huge, McBean looks serviceable and can get pressure. I love what fields has shown and peterson is freeing up Doom to rush one on one. Haggans will be fending off Ayers early on, but may hold the spot all year.

Inside I see DJ getting sacks when was the last time we seen that? He can make the plays. Andra Davis is a solid tackler, but his wheels aren't there anymore and could be a mis-match in passing downs.

I have always been a big fan of the 3-4. I'm glad the team finally will run (some form) of the defense.

tsiguy96
09-03-2009, 11:42 AM
Yes.

Already seen solid things from the first team this preseason. Having Dawk on the field is huge, McBean looks serviceable and can get pressure. I love what fields has shown and peterson is freeing up Doom to rush one on one. Haggans will be fending off Ayers early on, but may hold the spot all year.

Inside I see DJ getting sacks when was the last time we seen that? He can make the plays. Andra Davis is a solid tackler, but his wheels aren't there anymore and could be a mis-match in passing downs.

I have always been a big fan of the 3-4. I'm glad the team finally will run (some form) of the defense.

but how is haggan, ayers, and DJ in coverage? at some point, if im not mistaken, they all have to be in coverage at least several times a game...

azbroncfan
09-03-2009, 11:44 AM
NO, I started this thread to show HOW the New DC is utililizing his players better than in the past, using much better philosophy that simplifies the game for the idiotic front seven this team is forced to employ.

And I get this, well DUH response, from several solid posters trying to talk real football instead of wondering when the next childish WR will do something stupid.

I could get extremely technical here and go way over some people's heads, but this is what you get trying to infuse real football discussion into this perverted place I guess....

What is your prediction for this D this year Med? I think the run D will be better but they will struggle to get pressure and INT's. Teams will pass at will using the TE's and backs.

BroncoBuff
09-03-2009, 11:46 AM
I guess I take the existential view, it doesn't matter what name you give those OLB and/or DE spots, the name is irrelevant to what they're actually doing.

Love the way Doom stepped up against the Bears though ... this is gonna be a fun defense to watch :thumbs:

Mediator12
09-03-2009, 11:57 AM
What is your prediction for this D this year Med? I think the run D will be better but they will struggle to get pressure and INT's. Teams will pass at will using the TE's and backs.

Really, there are not the glaring gaps up the middle anymore and they are playing an inside out philosophy versus an outside/in for the run in this scheme. It is still too early to tell how effective they can be versus gameplanning though.

Right now, they just look average. So, that would be a good start!

I'll break down the first game and see what looks to be a problem then. Until then, its still worthless speculation.

Mediator12
09-03-2009, 12:02 PM
In terms of being technical, it's been more of a 4-3 over front than anything.

You mean 4-3 Under with the SAM on the LOS right? This does not resemble the Over with the 3 LB's back ???

kappys
09-03-2009, 12:19 PM
Its mostly a semantics argument. To me 5 on the line = 5-2 regardless of what the player responsibility is(rush, contain, zone, man-man, etc.)

Also people here are posting like they expect us to have a top 5 defense and that this scheme opens up too much room for opposing QB's. Well what do you expect? Of course good QB's are going to tear apart our defense, we made piss-poor QB's look like Joe Montana last year and made crappy RB's look like Gale Sayers. At least Nolan is trying to address some of the deficiencies and hopefully take away the run. If our ends/LB's can contain the outside run at least we can hope that only the QB's we face next year will look like superstars and who knows, they might even get some pressure and throw a pick.

A simple defense with only a few assignments and minimal play-reading skills from our players is the best we can do with this group. Hopefully it'll be enough to get us around 21 or 22 in defensive rankings.

TheReverend
09-03-2009, 12:24 PM
You mean 4-3 Under with the SAM on the LOS right? This does not resemble the Over with the 3 LB's back ???

I mean over. Elvis is playing at the line a lot as an acting whip end, and Haggan (the acting SAM in this example) is standing up at the LOS on the strong side.

5 on the line, in this case, but more 4-3 over than 52.

Bronco Yoda
09-03-2009, 12:38 PM
I wouldn't try and overthink it too much everyone. At this point they're throwing things at the wall to see who and what sticks.

bendog
09-03-2009, 12:38 PM
That's true. Wouldn't it depend a bit on what Haggan's responsibilty vis a vis the TE is? To me, a real 5-2 emphasies the DE penetrating, but like the link I tried to put up, a lot of high schools and colleges employ essentially a pass defending Sam

Waht the original article also pointed out correctly is taht without a real nose tackle, Nolan can't really implement ANY of the current 3-4 schemes, cause it's gonna come back to a one gap type scheme. And that's my question. From the TV, I haven't really gathered what gap scheme Nolan is doing.

bendog
09-03-2009, 12:38 PM
I wouldn't try and overthink it too much everyone. At this point they're throwing things at the wall to see who and what sticks.

and hoping what sticks isn't the qb's finger.