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tnedator
09-01-2009, 07:48 PM
I posted this on a couple boards the other day, but knew if I posted it here, I would get flamed by many.

Anyway, I know some here will relate to it, so here it is.

==============

A Broncos Nation Divided

As Jay Cutler marched the Bears on a 98 yard scoring drive, the game day
thread was spiraling out of control. The fans of cutler cursing new coach
Josh McDaniels. The fans that have washed their hands of Cutler, cursing
the announcers that went on and on about how a team never trades a
franchise Quarterback -- about the gift that fell in Lovie Smith's lap. The
fans of Mike Shanahan cursing Pat Bowlen, because they felt that Mr.
Bowlen pulled the trigger too soon on firing Shanahan. All in all, a divided
forum -- a divided Broncos nation.

With each penalty, with each injury, the divide widened, the tempers flared
more. A nation in turmoil, fan against fan, a virtual civil war ripping apart
the Broncos nation.

Similar meltdowns were occurring on message boards and blogs across the
internet, not to mention bars and living rooms across the Rocky Mountains.
How did such a great fan base fall into such disarray? How could so many
fans watch the same events unfold over the offseason, over the last five or
ten years, yet see those events in such different ways?

The beginning of the end for Mike Shanahan started just under nine months
ago, when the Broncos held a three game lead with three games left in the
season. Surely, the Broncos two year playoff drought would end -- all that
was needed was one win in the final three games. Then the unthinkable
happens, not only do the Broncos lose in weeks 15 and 16, but the chargers
win in those same weeks, and then the lead is down to one game. Still,
there is hope, beat San Diego and the AFC West title returns to Denver.
When the game was over, the Broncos not only lost, but were blown out in
a way Denver fans had not seen in years. The Broncos defense surrendered
more points than any Broncos team in nearly 20 years. The Chargers
finished with a team record 289 rushing yards, and their offense fell only a
few yards short of 500 yards.

It was an end to the season that few had envisioned. The Broncos became
the first team in over forty years to blow a three game lead with three
games to play.

Still, there was hope. Even with seven Broncos running backs finishing the
season on injured reserve, the Broncos offense finished second in the league
in total offense and third in passing offense.

As bad as the season ended, hope for the new season already started to
emerge. The feeling that with the fire power of Cutler, Marshall, Royal,
Clady and the rest of the offense, all that was needed was to shore up the
defense -- just put an average, middle of the pack defense on the field to
give the offense a chance to win.

Little did Broncos fans know that the historic three game implosion to end
the season would just be a ripple compared to the waves they would endure
this offseason.

A couple days after the season ended, Mike Shanahan was fired. After
leading the Broncos to two Super Bowls and having one of the best winning
percentages in the NFL over the previous 14 years, and even the ten years
since Elway retired, three straight losing seasons and blowing a three game
lead for the division title lead Pat Bowlen to believe it was time to make a
change.

As the shock wore off, Broncos fans again felt hope. With one of the top
offenses in football, surely Pat Bowlen would hire a defensive wizard to
come in and put a defense on the field to support the offense. Yes,
Shanahan's firing came as a shock to many, but then the thought of getting
a defensive head coach, once again brought hope to the Broncos faithful.

Then, in another surprising move, Mr. Bowlen hires Josh McDaniels, a young
offensive coordinator who was coming off a great three year run in New
England. When this new shock faded, the talk of bringing in Don Capers,
Mike Nolan or another proven defensive coordinator once again brought
some hope to the fans.

As if things couldn't get any worse, after news leaked that Josh McDaniels
was involved in trade talks to ship out Jay Cutler in exchange for Matt
Cassel, the one year starter that he had worked with for four years in New
England, Cutler asked to be traded. Surely the nightmare of the last four
months couldn't continue, there was no way that McDaniels and Cutler
wouldn't be able to sit down and work it out. Not this offseason, the word
'surely' had no place. Cutler was soon traded to the Chicago Bears for two
first round picks and Kyle Orton.

At almost the same time that Cutler was being traded, Brandon Marshall was
undergoing surgery on his hip, which he believed was misdiagnosed by the
Broncos medical staff the previous year. A couple months later, as he is
rehabbing from the surgery, his anger at the Broncos failure to renegotiate
his contract, combined with the hip diagnosis, lead him to walk out of the
Broncos offseason camp, and ultimately lead to Marshall's suspension for
disrupting practice and conduct detrimental to the team.

In nine short months, the Broncos went from a shoe in to win the AFC West,
to having a new head coach, Kyle Orton under center in place of Jay Cutler,
and Brandon Marshall, only the ninth player in NFL history to have
back-to-back 100 reception seasons, was suspended for conduct detrimental to
the team.

Could things get any worse?

That's what Broncos fans were thinking on Sunday night as they watched
Kyle Orton walk off the field holding up a bloody finger, knowing full well that
backup Chris Simms had been knocked out the week before with a sprained
ankle. Moments later, Jay Cutler, the onetime franchise quarterback of the
Broncos, now wearing a Bears uniform, took the field on his own two
yard line. In five painful minutes, Cutler marched the Bears down the field,
with the final stake to the heart being a six yard pass to Matt Forte for a
touchdown. Yet, it was only preseason.

It was only preseason. These new Broncos, with the new quarterback and
the new coaching staff, and their new look 3-4 defense had yet to play a
regular season game. It was only preseason.

As the fans tore each other apart on the message boards and blogs, you
might have thought that it was actually January, 2010, with the Broncos
having missed the playoffs for a fourth straight year. Even the division of
the Jake Plummer years paled in comparison to what we saw as the
frustration of the past nine months came to a head as Chris Collinsworth
said, "teams just don't trade away franchise quarterbacks" as Cutler marched
the Bears down the field, reminding fans -- those that loved him and those
that hated him -- of what could have been.

Long into the night, after the game had ended, just a preseason game at
that, peace was not to be found among the fans. The fans of the same
team, fans of the great Denver Broncos were civil no more. Civility, a word
long forgotten, lost sometime between the Shanahan firing and the Marshall
suspension. For many, the word hope also had disappeared from their
vocabulary, lost sometime over these nine painful months.

The Broncos will become a winning franchise again. Maybe this year. Maybe
next year. Maybe three or four years from now. The Broncos will again rise
to the top of the NFL ranks. The only question is when it will happen.

However, that is not the only question that the Broncos nation faces. They
face another 'when'. When will the fans of one of the classiest franchises in
the NFL begin to once again treat each other with class, with respect?
How long before we see a time when Broncos fans can discuss the state of
the Broncos and even disagree while still treating each other with respect --
with civility.

Being one of the NFL's elite franchises, isn't just about wins and losses, it's
about how you talk about the game, how you treat your fellow fan. In this
area, the collapse of the Denver Broncos to end the 2008 season pales in
comparison to the collapse of the Broncos nation -- to the Denver fans
feeding on their own.

While the fans have no control over who is hired or fired. Have no control
over who is traded, drafted or suspended. Have no control over overthrown
balls, dropped passes or missed tackles. They do have control over one
thing.

How they treat their fellow fan.

broncswin
09-01-2009, 07:56 PM
Man you just summed it up right there. We know in our hearts we our and always will be fans of our beloved Broncos. Teams fall on hard times, right now I would have to say this is the hardest time for the team in the 20 sum years I have followed them, but what we may go through now will only make us stronger. Realization has shown how good we had it, and in time(hopefully short time) we will be back. Bronco Country will be strong again, I really do believe this.

GO BRONCOS!!

OABB
09-01-2009, 07:57 PM
**** you asshole.

oubronco
09-01-2009, 07:57 PM
Cause this is "Broncos Country"

TheDave
09-01-2009, 08:04 PM
Good read...

The fact remains if the team wins people will unite. If not, things will get worse.

It is what it is...

listopencil
09-01-2009, 08:24 PM
That's racist.

El Guapo
09-01-2009, 09:04 PM
I didn't really need to be reminded of the worst off-season ever, but it was a good read. In the winter, if a fan could land one snowball on McDaniels noggin' I would be a happy Broncos fan once again.

WABronco
09-01-2009, 09:09 PM
**** you a-hole.

Seconded.

Maybe you should step the **** away from the keyboard and realize what you're arguing about? HMMM.

I have my strong opinions, but I have more fun posting on here in threads started by the two extremes (as in F MCD or CHRIS BAKER NO. 1!!!) than I do actually voicing a strong opinion.

That was all very relevant, I know.

hambone13
09-01-2009, 09:12 PM
A very well written article with a valid premise. I'm not sure if the Kool-Aid pitcher is a reality but if he comes bounding through my living room before the end of the season, I might believe we're going to be ok in the near future. Welcome to the jungle of unnecessary uber-rebuilding.

Taco John
09-01-2009, 09:17 PM
That was a great read. Thanks for that.

I'm going to do my part to try and treat people more respectfully. At the end of the day, all the turmoil here is about one thing: everybody wants to see the team win. Some feel like we're moving in the wrong direction, and that's why they're acting out. Some feel like we're moving in the right direction, and are angry that their counterparts don't share their vision.

But at the end of the day, it's about wanting to see the Broncos win. We all have a lot more in common than we don't.

Thanks for the eye opener, tned.

spdirty
09-01-2009, 09:18 PM
Pretty disgusting what an old drunk and an immature, insecure 33 year old kid have done.

spdirty
09-01-2009, 09:23 PM
Anyway, I really would like to share Popps and companys vision and hope of this team. Just dont see it there. Anyway, hope the Broncos win, hope we become contenders soon, hope McDaniels can pull a rabbit out of his ass and find a Tom Brady out of thin air, just dont see it happening. And dont think this team will be anywhere close to competitive till we find a new coach/GM. Hope Im wrong though. Winning will cure all the animosity that McD has been earned and through.

Great read BTW.

ZONA
09-01-2009, 09:26 PM
Fans are not divided because of winning and losing as TheDave suggests, not entirely anyway. McD hasn't even coached a single regular season game yet and there are plenty of "fans" who continually bash him on anything they can think of, some even going as far as saying they hate him. So right there that shows that it's not all about wins vs losses.

You're always going to have those forum fans who love the attention of making posts to be controversial as well as those that try to be funny by making annoying hateful remarks.

But I honestly believe there are a great deal more civil and intelligent fans here then there are ignorant mis-behavin babies. You just have to do your best to skip over those posts and get the ones where guys comment and debate with sophistication and articulate well their reasons for their views.

For example, the guy who just replied to your entire post with FU Ahole, I mean, that sums it up right there. No intelligent reason why he disagrees with your comments, just a blunt negative remark. But, to be fair, we all have done that one time or another, some just do it much too often.

Anyway, I appreciate the time you put into your comments. But I wouldn't get any high hopes of everybody on this board becoming nice to each other, aint gonna happen.

Taco John
09-01-2009, 09:38 PM
Fans are not divided because of winning and losing as TheDave suggests, not entirely anyway. McD hasn't even coached a single regular season game yet and there are plenty of "fans" who continually bash him on anything they can think of, some even going as far as saying they hate him. So right there that shows that it's not all about wins vs losses.



I think it's about the fact that a lot of people felt legitimate optimism about the future of this team under Shanahan. Whether you agree with their assessment about that optimism or not is a different matter. The fact is that a lot of people thought that Shanahan had the beginnings of a perennial Superbowl contender. I know that I did.

spdirty
09-01-2009, 09:45 PM
Fans are not divided because of winning and losing as TheDave suggests, not entirely anyway. McD hasn't even coached a single regular season game yet and there are plenty of "fans" who continually bash him on anything they can think of, some even going as far as saying they hate him. So right there that shows that it's not all about wins vs losses.

We are divided before he has coached a regular season game because many of us believe that this regime (McD and Bowlen) has severely damaged this teams ability to win games, not only by trading a key player, but making it difficult to even try to replace that key player in next years draft.

As far as "hate" I dont know who does, but I dont hate him. In the end he cant take my house away, put my family out on the street, raise my taxes, or send me to a war. All the Broncos are are entertainment. And win or lose, no matter how passionate we may be, most of us still have to put our workpants on Monday morning and go to work.

spdirty
09-01-2009, 09:46 PM
i think it's about the fact that a lot of people felt legitimate optimism about the future of this team under shanahan. Whether you agree with their assessment about that optimism or not is a different matter. The fact is that a lot of people thought that shanahan had the beginnings of a perennial superbowl contender. I know that i did.

x2

ZONA
09-01-2009, 09:58 PM
I think it's about the fact that a lot of people felt legitimate optimism about the future of this team under Shanahan. Whether you agree with their assessment about that optimism or not is a different matter. The fact is that a lot of people thought that Shanahan had the beginnings of a perennial Superbowl contender. I know that I did.

See, I was beginning to lose that faith in Shanny after yet another season of epic failure at the end. Starting fast, finishing weak. Going through the annual DC changes and the number of failed projects on the defense started to strain my views that Shanny could get this team back into the Superbowl. I never once thought he wasn't the best X's and O's guy out there but his personnel choices were failing at an alarming rate. Only did the last few drafts (mostly offense players) at least make it so I tolerated Bowlen not yanking the GM duties from Mike. And when the defense sank to the worst in the league last year, as well as our continually horrible special teams, I was losing faith fast.

And it's hard to not to agree with Mike when his own comments after being let go was, I simply didn't get the job done. Period.

BroncoBuff
09-01-2009, 10:01 PM
McD hasn't even coached a single regular season game yet and there are plenty of "fans" who continually bash him on anything they can think of, some even going as far as saying they hate him. So right there that shows that it's not all about wins vs losses.

The "hate" part goes overboard, granted.

But quite simply, there's nothing wrong with disliking McDaniels, nothing. And there's nothing wrong with voicing objections to the direction of the team. Too often those who do so are attacked and insulted. I don't see the "blue skies" people getting attacked by us. McDaniels, yes. Bowen, yes. Orton, yes. But not the posters themselves.

Dan Reeves takes huge amounts of grief and insults around here, and yet he was an excellent coach, results wise. Might've even been better than Shanahan. That's my opinion. But I don't attack people who disagree with me, just as I think we should not be attacked.

That's all I ask, that if you disagree - in either direction - try to put a lid on the hostility :thumbs:

ZONA
09-01-2009, 10:06 PM
To get back to the original post, I liked it because what are you seeing (mostly) in this thread? Guys who are trying to articulate their thoughts into interesting objectives and agreements. Not just some ruthless grunts trying their best to be funny or annoying. Kinda nice.

....but we'll probably see one of those here in the next few replies......:rofl:

footstepsfrom#27
09-01-2009, 10:11 PM
I'm more concerned about maybe 400 other things than what some clown on a blog thinks of me, you or the rest of "Bronco Nation".

tnedator
09-01-2009, 10:13 PM
To get back to the original post, I liked it because what are you seeing (mostly) in this thread? Guys who are trying to articulate their thoughts into interesting objectives and agreements. Not just some ruthless grunts trying their best to be funny or annoying. Kinda nice.

....but we'll probably see one of those here in the next few replies......:rofl:

Yep, I was sitting here reading the replies and was thinking the same thing. You, Taco, BroncoBuff, Dirty are all having a civil conversation, even though multiple, opposing views are expressed (mine is along the lines of what Taco was saying about optimism of what Shanny was building, but now I have moved on to hoping McDaniels will succeed).

Doesn't seem like it should be hard, but when you read threads here, on Mania on other sites, you would think at times we are fans of different teams based on the nastiness and hatred and trolling that takes place.

hambone13
09-01-2009, 10:15 PM
I think it's about the fact that a lot of people felt legitimate optimism about the future of this team under Shanahan. Whether you agree with their assessment about that optimism or not is a different matter. The fact is that a lot of people thought that Shanahan had the beginnings of a perennial Superbowl contender. I know that I did.

x3

tnedator
09-01-2009, 10:19 PM
I'm more concerned about maybe 400 other things than what some clown on a blog thinks of me, you or the rest of "Bronco Nation".

What clown on a blog is that?

Meck77
09-01-2009, 10:21 PM
Go Broncos!

footstepsfrom#27
09-01-2009, 10:23 PM
What clown on a blog is that?
Pick a blog...any blog. It's the nature of the internet. People are obnoxious and act stupid once they go online. It was true long before McD was here and it's going to continue long after he's gone. That's why I can't get to worked up about what somebody says to me or what they think of my opinion. People enjoy conflict in here because they can't engage each other like that in the real world without suffering consequences for it. We're simply not a very civil society anymore.

ZONA
09-01-2009, 10:25 PM
Pick a blog...any blog. It's the nature of the internet. People are obnoxious and act stupid once they go online. It was true long before McD was here and it's going to continue long after he's gone. That's why I can't get to worked up about what somebody says to me or what they think of my opinion. People enjoy conflict in here because they can't engage each other like that in the real world without suffering consequences for it. We're simply not a very civil society anymore.

That by no means is a stretch of the imagination. Sad.

tnedator
09-01-2009, 10:32 PM
Pick a blog...any blog. It's the nature of the internet. People are obnoxious and act stupid once they go online. It was true long before McD was here and it's going to continue long after he's gone. That's why I can't get to worked up about what somebody says to me or what they think of my opinion. People enjoy conflict in here because they can't engage each other like that in the real world without suffering consequences for it. We're simply not a very civil society anymore.

Ok, you are using blog and message board interchangably.

There seem to be two types of people on internet message boards. Those that believe that you treat people online the same way you would face to face, and those that believe that it's the internet, and you will likely never meet the other person, and there is no need to be nice or treat the other person with respect -- it's a make believe world.

I personally fall into the former group. That's not to say I don't become an ass at times, either getting carried away in a heated discussion, or deciding to respond 'in kind' to someone else attacking me (both are wrong), but I still try to be civil more times than not.

For me, it isn't worrying about what the other person on the message board will think of me, but instead, what I will think of myself. If I treat another person like ****, whether online or offline, I have to look myself in the mirror and realize I was an asshole.

ZONA
09-01-2009, 10:37 PM
These types are all too common also.


http://shallmakenolaw.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/toughguy.jpg

Meck77
09-01-2009, 10:39 PM
Blah blah blah....

**** the raiders! Yes it's that simple.....

Good to see you back around Jet19!

footstepsfrom#27
09-01-2009, 10:44 PM
Ok, you are using blog and message board interchangably.

There seem to be two types of people on internet message boards. Those that believe that you treat people online the same way you would face to face, and those that believe that it's the internet, and you will likely never meet the other person, and there is no need to be nice or treat the other person with respect -- it's a make believe world.

I personally fall into the former group. That's not to say I don't become an ass at times, either getting carried away in a heated discussion, or deciding to respond 'in kind' to someone else attacking me (both are wrong), but I still try to be civil more times than not.

For me, it isn't worrying about what the other person on the message board will think of me, but instead, what I will think of myself. If I treat another person like ****, whether online or offline, I have to look myself in the mirror and realize I was an a-hole.
Actually I would argue there's a third category; people who recognize that being online IS a different world, one with it's own entirely different set of social rules that define this experience and it's behavioral standards and ethics in a way unique to this experience alone. On the one hand you're a douche IF YOU USE ALL CAPITALS BECAUSE IT MEANS YOU'RE YELLING and yet it's pretty standard to call people idiot, moron, nitwit, ****head, etc...in fact it's so accepted that I've had conversations in here flaming back and forth with verbal insults and I notice a few hours later I got repped by the same person. That doesn't happen in the "real world". Back before the web sports fans had really no way of knowing how other fans viewed something, except maybe to listen to sports talk radio. Now they not only know each other's opinions, they know about each other's lives.

It is what it is...I don't worry about it anymore.

24champ
09-01-2009, 10:49 PM
**** you a-hole.

http://threadbombing.com/data/media/2/2gtwz83.gif

tnedator
09-01-2009, 10:52 PM
http://threadbombing.com/data/media/2/2gtwz83.gif

Champ, I know you don't like me based on your experience on BF, but I am going to ask you not to troll this thread. Just go back to slamming me in other threads. TIA.

lex
09-01-2009, 10:57 PM
Champ, I know you don't like me based on your experience on BF, but I am going to ask you not to troll this thread. Just go back to slamming me in other threads. TIA.


Speaking of civility, it would be far more civil if you remove the TIA from your post. To thank someone for something they havent given you yet, kind of suggests youre taking more than youre asking.

tnedator
09-01-2009, 10:58 PM
Actually I would argue there's a third category; people who recognize that being online IS a different world, one with it's own entirely different set of social rules that define this experience and it's behavioral standards and ethics in a way unique to this experience alone. On the one hand you're a douche IF YOU USE ALL CAPITALS BECAUSE IT MEANS YOU'RE YELLING and yet it's pretty standard to call people idiot, moron, nitwit, ****head, etc...in fact it's so accepted that I've had conversations in here flaming back and forth with verbal insults and I notice a few hours later I got repped by the same person. That doesn't happen in the "real world". Back before the web sports fans had really no way of knowing how other fans viewed something, except maybe to listen to sports talk radio. Now they not only know each other's opinions, they know about each other's lives.

It is what it is...I don't worry about it anymore.

While I wouldn't say that the Mane is 100% unique in that regard, it also isn't the norm. On many, many message boards, the behavior you describe not only isn't standard, it isn't allowed. There are quite a few boards I frequent, from technical to hobby (home theater, golf, gun related) and other sports related forums. Of all the forums I visit, the Mane is unique in it being standard to call people ****heads and ****tards and idiots and the like.

Is it wrong? Who knows. Is it normal? Not in my experience.

So, I don't really think there is a third group. You're caps=yelling is a good example, as that is an extension of something that would be considered rude IRL (in real life). If you were at a fantasy football draft, or a super bowl party or out bowling with the guys, and were screaming, it probably wouldn't be socially acceptable, as 'shouting' on a message board isn't.

I think some people choose to see the worlds as different, and others choose to see the rules being more aligned.

tnedator
09-01-2009, 11:02 PM
Speaking of civility, it would be far more civil if you remove the TIA from your post. To thank someone for something they havent given you yet, kind of suggests youre taking more than youre asking.

Lex, the guy doesn't like me, for reasons I won't go into in this thread, so he attacks me, posts GTFO pictures, and such wherever I post. Since I hope he respects the rest of the posters in this thread having a civil discussion and simply doesn't post anymore, I am thanking him in advance, as hopefully it will be the last opportunity I have to thank him.

It's sort of like writing an email or letter to someone where you are asking for help, and you say "thanks for anything you can do to help me in this matter".

lex
09-01-2009, 11:04 PM
Lex, the guy doesn't like me, for reasons I won't go into in this thread, so he attacks me, posts GTFO pictures, and such wherever I post. Since I hope he respects the rest of the posters in this thread having a civil discussion and simply doesn't post anymore, I am thanking him in advance, as hopefully it will be the last opportunity I have to thank him.

It's sort of like writing an email or letter to someone where you are asking for help, and you say "thanks for anything you can do to help me in this matter".

Suit yourself.

Bronco LB52
09-01-2009, 11:06 PM
Merriam-Webster should insert this picture below the definition of queer in their online dictionary.

http://www.broncosforums.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=44&pictureid=785

ZONA
09-01-2009, 11:09 PM
Speaking of civility, it would be far more civil if you remove the TIA from your post. To thank someone for something they havent given you yet, kind of suggests youre taking more than youre asking.

Civil only applies to 99.9% of the people here at the mane. Lex, you are the .1% exception to the rule. You are the worst troll maggot on this board. Doh, how uncivilized of me. But then again, you are the exception to the rule so now I don't feel bad. I think you have surpassed Bob as the #1 worst poster on this site.

ZONA
09-01-2009, 11:12 PM
Lex, the guy doesn't like me, for reasons I won't go into in this thread, so he attacks me, posts GTFO pictures, and such wherever I post. Since I hope he respects the rest of the posters in this thread having a civil discussion and simply doesn't post anymore, I am thanking him in advance, as hopefully it will be the last opportunity I have to thank him.

It's sort of like writing an email or letter to someone where you are asking for help, and you say "thanks for anything you can do to help me in this matter".

Hey, don't try and explain things to lex, he doesn't care, he doesn't want to care. In the nature of your original post saying lets try to be more civilized and nice to each other, yeah ok, but don't you dare go and try to be nice to this troll. He's a grade A punk, and everybody here knows it. So please don't offend the rest of us by being nice to this guy.

footstepsfrom#27
09-01-2009, 11:19 PM
While I wouldn't say that the Mane is 100% unique in that regard, it also isn't the norm. On many, many message boards, the behavior you describe not only isn't standard, it isn't allowed. There are quite a few boards I frequent, from technical to hobby (home theater, golf, gun related) and other sports related forums. Of all the forums I visit, the Mane is unique in it being standard to call people ****heads and ****tards and idiots and the like.
That's only true because whoever owns the board has established some kind of defined threatened action to deter people from doing what they would do normally...ie; getting banned. I post on a couple of professional boards where the level of dialogue is much different, but any time you have the common denominator as sports, politics or something not filtering people by virtue of some higher than normal standard, this is what you get. Check the Yahoo or Google sites for the comments after a story is posted. There is name calling all over the place. Look at the social networking sites, Youtube, etc...the internet in its natural (unmoderated) state is a lawless online version of the wild west.

At the end of the day...as my original point stated, I have better things to worry about. That's not a cliche...it's truth. I do have better things to worry about, including how people are treating each other in the real world. I could care less if somebody flames me in here and I simply reciprocate tit for tat so to speak.

It's not changing, and frankly I don't want to post on a site with somebody looking over my shoulder every 5 minutes to see if I pass the nice censors or not. That's one thing I do like about this board...people can speak their mind.

Vegas_Bronco
09-01-2009, 11:19 PM
Somehow, I feel like I got my azz kicked real hard and now every day I have to read about it over and over again....I'm going to go listen to some Lionel Richie before I bludgeon some poor innocent fool.

Great write up btw.

lex
09-01-2009, 11:24 PM
Civil only applies to 99.9% of the people here at the mane. Lex, you are the .1% exception to the rule. You are the worst troll maggot on this board. Doh, how uncivilized of me. But then again, you are the exception to the rule so now I don't feel bad. I think you have surpassed Bob as the #1 worst poster on this site.

Yeah, I know I say things that people dont want to hear. So go find your sister cry on her shoulder.

ZONA
09-01-2009, 11:25 PM
Yeah, I know I say things that people dont want to hear. So go find your sister cry on her shoulder.

I don't have a sister, will your mom do?

lex
09-01-2009, 11:26 PM
I don't have a sister, will your mom do?

Why would my mom let you cry on her shoulder?

tnedator
09-01-2009, 11:28 PM
Sorry guys, there are a few guys (champ, Lex, LB52) that had a bad experience with me (although in most cases it wasn't directly with me) on another message board, and so I am open game to them here - there chance to get 'back at me'. Sorry it's derailing this thread. I will try and take a don't feed the trolls approach with them, rather than keep responding to them and further derail things.

Vegas_Bronco
09-01-2009, 11:30 PM
http://threadbombing.com/data/media/2/2gtwz83.gif

Lakers rep! :strong::strong::strong:

lex
09-01-2009, 11:35 PM
Sorry guys, there are a few guys (champ, Lex, LB52) that had a bad experience with me (although in most cases it wasn't directly with me) on another message board, and so I am open game to them here - there chance to get 'back at me'. Sorry it's derailing this thread. I will try and take a don't feed the trolls approach with them, rather than keep responding to them and further derail things.

Ive left you alone here. So dont even start that ****. Our only run in here, was driven by you angling at a confrontation, not me.

Spider
09-01-2009, 11:37 PM
freaking bedwetters .......... We dont need Cutler , we need a kick ass Tight End , we need a kick ass NT , and we need a monster OLLB ......... Although Doom has played well from what I have seen .......
I think Larson could be that T.E. ....... I got a hunch that bad ass can do just about everything on the field .......

tnedator
09-01-2009, 11:38 PM
That's only true because whoever owns the board has established some kind of defined threatened action to deter people from doing what they would do normally...ie; getting banned. I post on a couple of professional boards where the level of dialogue is much different, but any time you have the common denominator as sports, politics or something not filtering people by virtue of some higher than normal standard, this is what you get. Check the Yahoo or Google sites for the comments after a story is posted. There is name calling all over the place. Look at the social networking sites, Youtube, etc...the internet in its natural (unmoderated) state is a lawless online version of the wild west.

At the end of the day...as my original point stated, I have better things to worry about. That's not a cliche...it's truth. I do have better things to worry about, including how people are treating each other in the real world. I could care less if somebody flames me in here and I simply reciprocate tit for tat so to speak.

It's not changing, and frankly I don't want to post on a site with somebody looking over my shoulder every 5 minutes to see if I pass the nice censors or not. That's one thing I do like about this board...people can speak their mind.

I can see your point, it's a good one. While you are right that some online sites impose rules, to keep the order, I still think it comes down to the individuals belief about what is or isn't ok.

If you get on Madden or some other online game, some people are going to talk major trash, with cursing and other stuff, others aren't. Same with comments after articles, some might call people they disagree with idiots, but many don't. I think there is a difference between some people taking advantage of an unmoderated medium, and whether most people believe the behavior is ok, but that just be my rose colored view of the world.

Spider
09-01-2009, 11:40 PM
I can see your point, it's a good one. While you are right that some online sites impose rules, to keep the order, I still think it comes down to the individuals belief about what is or isn't ok.

If you get on Madden or some other online game, some people are going to talk major trash, with cursing and other stuff, others aren't. Same with comments after articles, some might call people they disagree with idiots, but many don't. I think there is a difference between some people taking advantage of an unmoderated medium, and whether most people believe the behavior is ok, but that just be my rose colored view of the world.

Dont even try to turn the Mane into a heavy modded board like youres ........

DBroncos4life
09-01-2009, 11:41 PM
Merriam-Webster should insert this picture below the definition of queer in their online dictionary.

http://www.broncosforums.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=44&pictureid=785

Those are nice maui jims....

lex
09-01-2009, 11:45 PM
I can see your point, it's a good one. While you are right that some online sites impose rules, to keep the order, I still think it comes down to the individuals belief about what is or isn't ok.

If you get on Madden or some other online game, some people are going to talk major trash, with cursing and other stuff, others aren't. Same with comments after articles, some might call people they disagree with idiots, but many don't. I think there is a difference between some people taking advantage of an unmoderated medium, and whether most people believe the behavior is ok, but that just be my rose colored view of the world.

Nice. So this is really just an elaborate way of saying your board is better than The Mane. So there it is. That was fun.

ZONA
09-01-2009, 11:48 PM
freaking bedwetters .......... We dont need Cutler , we need a kick ass Tight End , we need a kick ass NT , and we need a monster OLLB ......... Although Doom has played well from what I have seen .......
I think Larson could be that T.E. ....... I got a hunch that bad ass can do just about everything on the field .......

Larson at TE? Where the heck did that come from?

tnedator
09-01-2009, 11:52 PM
Those are nice maui jims....

Thanks, I love my Jims. Got my first pair years ago on my honeymoon in Maui, when they were more surfer eyeware in Hawaii and California (I think), not seen much in the rest of the country. Now, I have those plastic sports ones for when I travel, a pair in my car, and the titanium sports in my golf bag.

The 'queer' in the photo is also wearing orange and blue, I feel obligated to point out.

24champ
09-02-2009, 01:10 AM
Nice. So this is really just an elaborate way of saying your board is better than The Mane. So there it is. That was fun.

Oh yeah...it's way better over there. That's why he spends a lot of time on this board. Ha!

footstepsfrom#27
09-02-2009, 01:16 AM
I think there is a difference between some people taking advantage of an unmoderated medium, and whether most people believe the behavior is ok, but that just be my rose colored view of the world.
I don't understand the need to moderate these sports boards beyond some very basic rules that already seem to exist in here. In the 4 1/2 years I've been in here I've found the need to put only 1 poster on ignore.

footstepsfrom#27
09-02-2009, 01:17 AM
The 'queer' in the photo is also wearing orange and blue, I feel obligated to point out.
Who is it?

tnedator
09-02-2009, 06:04 AM
Who is it?

That's me. Another one of my 'haters', LB52, posted it with a quip about how it should be the picture in the dictionary under queer.

Hey, they say, when you have haters follow you around attacking you, you've finally arrived. So, I guess it's a positive thing.

I don't understand the need to moderate these sports boards beyond some very basic rules that already seem to exist in here. In the 4 1/2 years I've been in here I've found the need to put only 1 poster on ignore.

I never put a person on ignore for any reason. I have suggested it for other's at time, but never felt the need to do it myself. I figure we all have this free will thing and we are not forced to respond to anything. If I find someone annoying, then I can just choose not to respond or pass over or just skim their post.

I'm completely comfortable with a lightly moderated board, or a strictly moderated board, or anything in between. I've been on all types of boards, and I also relate that to real life. If I'm on the golf course with friends, at a bar or someplace else with the right crowd, then I tend to drop f-bombs and other curses with regularity, but if I am at a family thing or work, then I am going to avoid those things.

When I move between forums, it's the same way. At times, I come here (especially WPR), because an occasional flame war is fun. I typically don't post for long in WPR, because most people just talk 'past' each other, regardless of what side of the debate they are on and that gets old, but that's a different subject.

Anyway, truly understanding the dynamics of why people do what in real life vs. the Internet is not my specialty, and above my pay grade, as they say.

errand
09-02-2009, 06:57 AM
Good read...

The fact remains if the team wins people will unite. If not, things will get worse.

It is what it is...

Nope...i know that the majority of those who despise McDaniels and think Orton is a piece of garbage would not hesitate to blast those of us who either supported them, or have a "wait and see" attitude about them.

Trust me...they did it when Grieise had a decent game, they did it when Jake had a bad one...and they'll do it again when Orton has a bad one as well.

errand
09-02-2009, 06:59 AM
Larson at TE? Where the heck did that come from?

Larsen has experience playing FB, as well as LB...some teams convert FB's into TE's.

I'm sure it's speculation on Spider's part.

tnedator
09-02-2009, 07:35 AM
Nope...i know that the majority of those who despise McDaniels and think Orton is a piece of garbage would not hesitate to blast those of us who either supported them, or have a "wait and see" attitude about them.

Trust me...they did it when Grieise had a decent game, they did it when Jake had a bad one...and they'll do it again when Orton has a bad one as well.

Yes, even in the 13-3 year in '05, the Jake haters went crazy with the losses, or even if it was an 'ugly' win. Much the same with Griese, and I saw some of it the last 2+ years when Cutler had a bad game, or threw an ill-timed pick (mostly from the people that were still pissed that Cutler replaced Plummer).

tnedator
09-02-2009, 07:55 AM
I thought this was a good post. I posted this same post (the OP in this thread) on Mania, and one reply was that fans have in Denver have always been this way, throwing batteries at players on the field, beer on other fans that didn't cheer loud enough, etc.

Others contended that when it was just going to the game, maybe a sports bar and listening/callin in to talk radio was much different than today.

Here is a post that sums up the difference pretty well, I think:

Before the internet ect. we just all went about our lives and had a bad week after a bad game lol...
Same with a good game.
It's the way of message boards.
Of course there are some neighbors of mine......come to think of it...

For most of us fans, especially out of town ones, who don't go to many or any games, before the Internet, we might talk to some friends at work about the bad game, or bad season, but there wasn't an outlet like the Mane to vent all of the frustrations, or other people to take those frustrations out on.

I know myself, I have watched or listened to every Broncos game since '85 (I know that is still a new fan for some of your real long time fans). There were a handful of games in 2000, when I was out of the country and only got to listen to KOA streaming the games online, otherwise, I have watched every game (want talk about 'how' I manged that before NFLST, but I did).

However, until relatively recently, when we were having a crap season, other than listening to KOA online or before that in the evening when it got dark and I could start picking it up, there wasn't really anyplace to 'vent' about the Broncos. I live in Cowboys' country, so I might talk to friends about what is going on with the Broncos, but they don't care too much, as they are concerned about what's happening with the Boys. I did have one co-worker from Denver, and we used to talk about the good things after a win, but half the times if it was a loss, especially a bad one, we would avoid each other for a few days, as we fumed inside.

That's all changed, for the better, IMO, with forums and blog sites and great news coverage and even now nearly live news with this twitter stuff. However, at the same time, it has left us with the ability to instantly vent, rather than fume internally for a few days. That instant venting tends to build on itself. I am pissed a McDaniels for doing ______ and then Taco chimes in and winds me up more, and then I chime in and BroncoBuff responds, etc. We wind each other up to a near frenzy, and then you have the other side screaming and saying, "you guys a ef-ing morons if you think McDaniels did anything wrong", and then back and forth.

Now, by and large, I think that back and forth and the ability to talk about our Broncos nearly non-stop is awesome. However, sometimes we stop really talking about them, and things just turn into a bash fest --- bashing players, bashing coaches and bashing fellow posters --- and that is when things can start to get so nasty, that it really is no longer about discussing the Broncos, but just venting rage.

Now, to the comments about me wanting the Mane more moderated. I could care less, this isn't about how tightly moderated a board is, because in the end, moderators can't force posters to get past the rage and remember we all root for the same team, they can't moderate common sense and courtesy, and IMO, shouldn't moderate/censor opinions.

In my experience, these problems happen on all the Broncos boards, even though they have vastly different approaches to how a message board should be moderated.

bloodsunday
09-02-2009, 08:44 AM
I think it's about the fact that a lot of people felt legitimate optimism about the future of this team under Shanahan. Whether you agree with their assessment about that optimism or not is a different matter. The fact is that a lot of people thought that Shanahan had the beginnings of a perennial Superbowl contender. I know that I did.

That's certainly a valid perspective. I was very optimistic through week 3 of last season. It seemed we had a couple of good drafts in a row and some good young talent.

BUT, then the usual Shanahan late season collapse came. I was very disheartened to see this team doing the same things (losing the turnover battle, poor 3rd down defense, poor redzone offense, poor special teams coverage) again for seemingly the 10th straight year. We continually lost situational football under Shanahan. And his response was always the same -- we had a bunch of yards, which meant (in his mind), we had a chance to be special. The problem is, when you can't put the ball int he endzone (see the Buffalo game), then there is no real point in having yards.... Anyway, I loved Shanahan for the 2 Super Bowls and 14 years of GREAT memories. But I'm with Bowlen, it was time. To be honest, I thought it was time 2 years ago when he botched (IMO) the Jay Cutler/Jake Plummer transition and took a 13 - 3 team all the way back to mediocrity in one year. If you think about it, that collapse was almost as hard to stomach as this one. It's just that people were willing to look at the bright side because we had a "franchise QB" in the wings. Right now people are only willing to see the pessimistic side of things because we look like fools for giving up the same guy.

I expected this transition to be tough, something this major always has warts. Having said that, I didn't think it would be this tough. My initial reaction to hiring McDaniels was excitement because I though having a fresh set of ideas for Cutler, Marshall, Royal, Clady and Co. would be amazing. Little did I know he was reading the Avalanche play book and decided to go scorched earth on us. It is only preseason, and perhaps there is some kind of intelligence to this plan that can't be seen by the average fan, but man do we look like a second-rate organization right now.

I'm going to stay patient and trust that Bowlen knew what he was doing when he hired McDaniels. I'm not going to get all cynical and second guess every decision he makes... at least not until I have some regular season games to use as my support. And of course I will continue to support my Broncos and hope for a better tomorrow...

Traveler
09-02-2009, 09:13 AM
I may not contribute much to this site, but this offseason really has divided this forum almost beyond repair.

The Mane has always been fairly cliquish. Almost to the point where I can't stand to read some of the circle jerking that occurs here. Not taking a shot at anyone in particular because there are some great posters here.

Having said that, the venom being spewed from members on both sides of the divide has driven me to the point of visiting this forum even less. It's a shame that I enjoy reading posts in the WPR Thread moreso than threads in the OM Central Discussion.

No one is discussing anything anymore, just trying to shout down the other side. I feel like I'm in a Healthcare Townhall or something.

Hopefully, things will calm down once the season gets started.

GoBroncos DownUnder
09-02-2009, 10:59 AM
Firstly, GREAT post by the guy who started this thread.:notworthy

When the proverbial started hitting the fan this off-season (Shanny/Cutler), I came to this site and read a post by TGN. I basically said "Not the first time or the last time I'll be seeing a new HC or QB in Denver" ... that pretty much sums up the way I feel about the team.
It got me thinking about one of the Broncos "employees" (loosely used term) who has helped me out with tickets in the past. He's a great person, and obviously a busy man, but the guy has been employed by the Broncos for (I believe) over 40 years now. Here I am wondering what it's going to be like without Shanny, while he's been through so many coaches, 1000's of players, and a LOT of rough years ... it kind of put any doubts I had into perspective.

I'm still here, still a fan, still wearing Orange and Blue on Sundays!

bendog
09-02-2009, 11:25 AM
"bronco nation"?

jhns
09-02-2009, 11:29 AM
I say the easiest way to cure all of these complaints is for everyone to hate mcdaniels. It would make the conversations on the forums go a lot better.
Do your part and make the forums a better place!

Bronco Yoda
09-02-2009, 11:39 AM
Larsen has experience playing FB, as well as LB...some teams convert FB's into TE's.

I'm sure it's speculation on Spider's part.

I thought he was our starting QB this Thur.

Taco John
09-02-2009, 11:44 AM
I say the easiest way to cure all of these complaints is for everyone to hate mcdaniels. It would make the conversations on the forums go a lot better.
Do your part and make the forums a better place!


This is actually more true than you know. Not that I want people to hate McDaniels... But the problem - not only with this forum, but all Broncos forums right now - is that the "bandwagon" is split in half and pulling in opposite directions. There is a huge amount of contrast in the opinions of the posters and the fan base, as a whole, is not communicating on the same wave length. We've had a virtual "Tower of Babel" effect on the Broncos fanbase. People aren't even speaking the same language on the Broncos right now. On one hand you've got people saying "I love the Broncos, therefor I love McDaniels and the direction we're going," and on the other hand you have people saying "I love the Broncos, therefore I hate McDaniels and the direction we're going," and everywhere in between. (these are intended to be broad generalization of positions).

Once the season starts, the "bandwagon" is going to shift in one direction or the other and more people will be communicating on the same wave length. Whether the shift is behind McDaniels, or against him, the cumulative effect will be a sense of less friction due to more agreement. Though the friction would be FAR FAR FAR less if the shift happened to go behind McDaniels because it would mean that the team was looking good on the field, even winning.

This is definitely the most controversial offseason this forum has experienced - but that's to be expected. This is the most controversial offseason probably in the modern history (sub-35 year history) of the NFL. I can't think of a time when someone had a more controversial offseason than this.

TheReverend
09-02-2009, 11:52 AM
We know the fan base is divided, but has it reached a Cybertron destruction type level?

I clearly should be Megatron.

bendog
09-02-2009, 11:54 AM
I dunno how you can say it's "reasonable' to agree with the A. Smith move or even even moving up for Quinn. You can say homerism isn't misplaced, but homerism is homerism. Now who knows. A.Smith may be all pro someday, and Quinn may beat out Graham in 2010. it's unlikely, but it's possible. Hoodie may turn Orton into Brady ... it's possible. But based upon their respective careers, the trade is indefensible. You can say, well I'm a bronco so I'll be postive.

But you are right, by the end of week eight there should be some beginning of consensus.

jhns
09-02-2009, 12:05 PM
This is actually more true than you know. Not that I want people to hate McDaniels... But the problem - not only with this forum, but all Broncos forums right now - is that the "bandwagon" is split in half and pulling in opposite directions. There is a huge amount of contrast in the opinions of the posters and the fan base, as a whole, is not communicating on the same wave length. We've had a virtual "Tower of Babel" effect on the Broncos fanbase. People aren't even speaking the same language on the Broncos right now. On one hand you've got people saying "I love the Broncos, therefor I love McDaniels and the direction we're going," and on the other hand you have people saying "I love the Broncos, therefore I hate McDaniels and the direction we're going," and everywhere in between. (these are intended to be broad generalization of positions).

Once the season starts, the "bandwagon" is going to shift in one direction or the other and more people will be communicating on the same wave length. Whether the shift is behind McDaniels, or against him, the cumulative effect will be a sense of less friction due to more agreement. Though the friction would be FAR FAR FAR less if the shift happened to go behind McDaniels because it would mean that the team was looking good on the field, even winning.

This is definitely the most controversial offseason this forum has experienced - but that's to be expected. This is the most controversial offseason probably in the modern history (sub-35 year history) of the NFL. I can't think of a time when someone had a more controversial offseason than this.

Good post. I agree that it will get a lot better in a month or two. I have openly hated on mcdaniels for a while but my complaints will stop if I can see the team getting better.

There will always be a split with the cutler trade. Even if we win some, if cutler wins more in chicago, there will still be a lot that aren't happy. Depending on how much improvement we show, I could be in the group of people still not happy.

That all said, I never attack others (well, maybe tailgate but I swear he started it). I do not call our coach any cute nicknames and I try keeping posts about the NFL and not the posters. It would be nice if others would do this as well. That is the only way this place will be civil with the giant divide in opinions. Instead, everything turns into who the better fan is or who can beat up everyone on the internet.

bendog
09-02-2009, 12:10 PM
hey, I used to call him worse, and i expect to do so in the future. But if McDaniels makes you happy, ok

Rock Chalk
09-02-2009, 12:11 PM
I think it's about the fact that a lot of people felt legitimate optimism about the future of this team under Shanahan. Whether you agree with their assessment about that optimism or not is a different matter. The fact is that a lot of people thought that Shanahan had the beginnings of a perennial Superbowl contender. I know that I did.

With Slowik as our DC?

Get real.

TheReverend
09-02-2009, 12:14 PM
http://machomang.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/megatron.jpg

Odysseus
09-02-2009, 01:03 PM
I am definitely going to have to start pimping a Bears Griese jersey AND a Bears Cutler jersey. No question about it.

tnedator
09-02-2009, 03:41 PM
Good post. I agree that it will get a lot better in a month or two. I have openly hated on mcdaniels for a while but my complaints will stop if I can see the team getting better.

There will always be a split with the cutler trade. Even if we win some, if cutler wins more in chicago, there will still be a lot that aren't happy. Depending on how much improvement we show, I could be in the group of people still not happy.

That all said, I never attack others (well, maybe tailgate but I swear he started it). I do not call our coach any cute nicknames and I try keeping posts about the NFL and not the posters. It would be nice if others would do this as well. That is the only way this place will be civil with the giant divide in opinions. Instead, everything turns into who the better fan is or who can beat up everyone on the internet.

There are a number of things that McDaniels has done that I question (Cutler, Marshall, trading away the first for Smith, etc) and like Bowlen, I think that McDaniels has made rookie mistakes, but I also like what I am seeing and have read in the camp reports.

I think we will have a more fundamentally sound team on the field, and I think our defense will be better. What I don't know is whether his "my way or the highway" approach will fly. Or, more importantly, whether that approach will lead to winning, which in the end is the main thing us fans care about.

Hotrod
09-02-2009, 04:51 PM
Seconded.

Maybe you should step the **** away from the keyboard and realize what you're arguing about? HMMM.

I have my strong opinions, but I have more fun posting on here in threads started by the two extremes (as in F MCD or CHRIS BAKER NO. 1!!!) than I do actually voicing a strong opinion.

That was all very relevant, I know.

For ****s sake people

tnedator is a good guy

Spider
09-02-2009, 10:14 PM
Larson at TE? Where the heck did that come from?

sure why the hell not ? the guy is bad ass .........

tnedator
09-02-2009, 10:56 PM
sure why the hell not ? the guy is bad ass .........

Can he catch the ball, or would he be another blocking tight end?

Spider
09-03-2009, 06:32 PM
Can he catch the ball, or would he be another blocking tight end?

why does he have to be one or the other ? why not both ?
Larsen stepped in last year at line backer , A lot of times he read the plays better then Webster did ......... you take a guy like that and use him where he will help the most , Hell Larson was supposed to be a full back @ one point in time ........

footstepsfrom#27
09-03-2009, 06:34 PM
We don't need him at TE or FB. We need him to win a starting ILB spot opposite DJ.

Spider
09-03-2009, 06:38 PM
We don't need him at TE or FB. We need him to win a starting ILB spot opposite DJ.

maybe , but you wont win **** until you dominate the hashmarks with a TE ........