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Rulon Velvet Jones
08-31-2009, 11:34 AM
I'm trapped in Dallas. Therefore, I'm trapped having also to observe the Dallas sports scene. Mavs and Stars aside, it pains me to have to watch so much Cowboys-related coverage here in the Metroplex, but whatever. I do what I can to survive.

I want to bring up our little buddy Tony Romo and how the Cowboys offense, somewhat widely touted, has yet to "open it up" in the preseason - about the same as the Broncos have with Orton and the other QBs. After this last weekend's 3rd preseason game, would you care to guess the longest pass for Romo in this offense, with these supposed weapons?

If you guessed 25 yards on a Felix Jones screen-and-run, then you'd be correct. That's it. 25 measly yards in about 80 total plays with the offense in the preseason.

There's little whining here about the potential of Romo's arm and chucking it downfield when the games really matter, but there are starting to be whispers. Romo may have a better arm than Orton, but he falls victim to something worse than Kyle. Romo will huck it up in the air in the hopes a teammate bails him out which, more often than not, they manage to do.

But, when it comes down to the games that really matter, will there be equal panic between the 2 fanbases when it comes to their quarterback and their team's offense being able to "open it up"? I think the panic needs to be reserve until we see things come around a bit. As it stands, I'm hoping Orton and the offense can be what they were labeled last night - a short pass, ball control offense that, hopefully, has a good mix of the deep ball to keep the defenses honest.

Are you concerned with the lack of a big play, vertical passing game in the preseason so far?

Bronco LB52
08-31-2009, 11:37 AM
With Orton, not only am I concerned about him keeping defenses honest with passes over 15 yards, I also feel he doesn't get enough zip on the ball on slants and intermediate routes. He's the Trevor Hoffman of quarterbacks!

Lolad
08-31-2009, 11:42 AM
Im definitely concerned anybody who watched game yesterday is well aware that Chicago attacked the middle with their LB's and brought their safety closet to the LOS.

Couple that with the inconsistent running game, no zbs to disguise the play action rollouts or bootlegs. Where in for some trouble, Tom B looked good. I think because he's not afraid to throw a pass more then 5 yards. He was rolling out, stepping up throwing down the field.

gtown
08-31-2009, 11:42 AM
I am not too panicked about it. I think McD will open it up once the season starts. I think he knows what he has in his starters. The plays that the 1st teamers have run have been very vanilla I have to say.

We have seen him open it up for the 2nd and 3rd string offense a few times because I think he is still trying to evaluate what he has there.

bloodsunday
08-31-2009, 11:48 AM
Very worried at this point.

The injury to Gaffney and Marshall's antics don't help, but the passing game looks dreadfully boring and less than marginally effective.

Lolad
08-31-2009, 11:56 AM
I am not too panicked about it. I think McD will open it up once the season starts. I think he knows what he has in his starters. The plays that the 1st teamers have run have been very vanilla I have to say.

We have seen him open it up for the 2nd and 3rd string offense a few times because I think he is still trying to evaluate what he has there.

Question for you... Why would he open it up come the regular season? Ortons abilities ae limited I think McD knows that. Requiring him to throw down the dlfield when he has looked average throwing short passes what does that say when he's asked to throw long? Do you really think he'll look better throwing deeper passes?

And I've seen many guys proclaim the same thing on this board tondefend Orton and our coach. That excuse is nothing but a joke.

Beantown Bronco
08-31-2009, 12:13 PM
The real reason they're not throwing deep in Dallas is because they're afraid of hitting Jerry's precious scoreboard. We have no such excuse.

Man-Goblin
08-31-2009, 12:37 PM
It's time to release Orton's arm. And I don't mean cut him.

Oh, and let the D-line loose.

gyldenlove
08-31-2009, 12:45 PM
I am not concerned about the lack of a vertical passing game, we knew that Orton's strength wasn't his amazing throwing power and Mcdaniels was well aware of that as well. Besides with the skill players we have we are more suited to a precision/timing offense than a vertical one, players like Royal and Stokley are very well suited to finding open space and can use their route running skills to open up room for short passes.

As for Dallas, they are in trouble, TO was much more important to that offense than most people accepted, he faced double teams constantly and was the main reason that Witten was able to get open so often. Now that Witten is going to face more coverage they have to rely on Roy Williams to bail them out and he has yet to establish any kind of relationship with Romo who is a type that locks onto his targets early. I expect Dallas will have a strong ground attack, but their air offense is not going be anywhere near as scary as some people think, middle of the league seems about right for them.

Taco John
08-31-2009, 01:15 PM
Are you concerned with the lack of a big play, vertical passing game in the preseason so far?



I really am not - and this goes back to my defense of Griese days. I think that you can have a successful offense that smartly dinks and dunks its way down the field and relies on the strength of the running game to open up the high percentage deep ball. It's essentially the same strategy that we had during our Superbowl days: chew up the clock, make the high percentage pass. Mix in some running. Take the deep ball only if it's absolutely there, otherwise, throw it away. It really turns into an issue of flat efficiency. Griese, when he was on, was throwing for us in the 115.0 level quarterback range. Of course, that 115.0 didn't typically come with a lot of play making. But in order to make that work (at least in my opinion), you have to have a star runningback, a star left tackle, and a star receiver.

The biggest question mark as far as I'm concerned isn't at quarterback - it's at runningback.

underrated29
08-31-2009, 01:24 PM
I am concerend. I was not before, but i went to the game last night and now i do have a concern.

The bears shut down our run and always put the saftey in the box. On almost every play they had only 1 Saftey back. If we were to impliment a 2 man deep or streak with royal and marshall that means single coverage for one of them.....It also keeps the bears from putting the saftey so dam low.

Our problem was our passes were so short that the saftey was often there to break up the plays if the LB or DB wasnt. We were playing right into the defenses hands. I did not like that at all. AT ALL.

We need to get some 15+ plays in there, or atleast routes to keep them back. All night we were passing right into the heart of their defense and were running against 8 man fronts.

I know its preseason, but i did not like what i saw. We werent putting guys in each of the zones. Far short and middle. We are all just at the edge of short and middle- right where the heart of the defense is....

It needs to change.

barryr
08-31-2009, 01:30 PM
Folks, it's the preseason, teams do not show all of their plans ahead of time. Plus, I think since a new system with some newer players, getting the timing down on the shorter passes is what they deem most important right now since all teams throw more of those type passes than long bombs.

Taco John
08-31-2009, 01:59 PM
I think McDaniel's quote says it all:

"Kyle was fine tonight,'' said McDaniels. "What was he, 12 of 16, something like that? [Exactly.] He's not our issue, and I don't believe he's going to be. He's a good player who knows what to do. He's accurate, he knows the offense, he's well-respected by the guys in the locker room. But it's hard to get into a rhythm when you have 10 penalties, six holding calls and put yourself in bad situations over and over again and it always seems like it's first-and-20.''


The emphasis is mine.

The underlined part is basically the word-for-word Griese defense that I made around here back in 2001. And it works for awhile. But quarterbacks like Griese (and his student, Kyle) are system quarterbacks. System quarterbacks are only as good as the strength of the system.

There has to be a culture change in Denver for this to work. It really is unfair to expect anything out of Kyle except basic execution. We're talking ball control passing, high QB ratings, and few interceptions. I think Kyle is capable of this. But if we have to start pressing downfield with the guy - well... I think that is going to end just as badly as having to press a field with Griese.

oubronco
08-31-2009, 02:08 PM
his passes after 10yds are behind his recievers they run faster than he throws

AbileneBroncoFan
08-31-2009, 02:11 PM
If you're talking passes over 40 yards in the air, we haven't had that in a while. Cutler, with all of his arm strenght, was not nearly as good of a deep passer as Manning or Brady, and missed more bombs than he hit. Where it's going to hurt is 15-20 yard passes. We had a ton of those last year, and we won't get nearly as many this year. However, we will be running the ball much more efficiently and we have a multiple running backs who can be legitimate threats after catching a screen, something we haven't had since Clinton Portis left. This offense is going to be about execution, execution, execution. If we don't have penalties and don't turn the ball over, we'll score between 21-24 ppg. The defense looks significantly better than that joke last year, so I expect we'll be in a lot of close games. Whether we can drive down and score at the end when it's on the line or not is going to be the big question.

More relevant to the question of throwing the deep ball than Orton's arm (which is not adequate for throwing down field often) is the lack of a tall receiver (assuming Marshall doesn't grow up and get his **** together). To throw deep with the guys we have, they'll need to be open. We can't throw it up and expect Royal or Stokley to out jump a safety for it. We're going to find out just how brilliant of a schemer McDaniels is, because we have some tremendous strengths and some tremendous weaknesses.

footstepsfrom#27
08-31-2009, 02:18 PM
Romo can run better than a cigar store indian, and he can throw on the run. He even uses his right arm to do so. I wouldn't mind an accurate, less turnover prone Plummer type moving an offense that dinks it's way downfield as long as that guy could roll out, bootleg and had a dominant running game to keep defenses honest. I wouldn't call what we've seen so far dominant, more like pathetic. Nine yards rushing with Orton in the game and like a couple posters already said, the Bears loaded the LOS with LB's and safeties becuase they didn't respect the deep pass. Cripes they didn't respect the 15 yarder either. That style can work IF you can get it downfield accurately once in a while. Elway could do it so team's couldn't totallly sell out to stop TD. Plummer couldn't and teams ate Lelie alive once they figured this out. The main reason we got Cutler is because Shanny knew the jig was up with the Plummer smoke & mirrors offense. How long will it take teams to figure out Orton? Two years ago is my guesss.

We'll see what he can do against Cincy but right now I'm not holding my breath that what we've seen now isn't what we will see in two weeks. Who knows? By then we might be talking about the battle between Ingle Martin and Tom B. ;D

Rulon Velvet Jones
08-31-2009, 02:36 PM
Side: Thanks to TJ for the awesome username change.

rastaman
08-31-2009, 02:52 PM
With Orton, not only am I concerned about him keeping defenses honest with passes over 15 yards, I also feel he doesn't get enough zip on the ball on slants and intermediate routes. He's the Trevor Hoffman of quarterbacks!

Orton has always had a Noodle Arm!

Orange_Beard
08-31-2009, 02:54 PM
With Orton, not only am I concerned about him keeping defenses honest with passes over 15 yards, I also feel he doesn't get enough zip on the ball on slants and intermediate routes. He's the Trevor Hoffman of quarterbacks!

I agree. Even thought it is a new O, to me it looks soooo much like the O with Griese at QB.

cutthemdown
08-31-2009, 02:57 PM
I'm more worried Orton is slow footed then about hs arm.

Still though we all knew we would run a quick passing west coast hybrid type adaptation of NE's style. But if the coach has no Marshall then I would think the gameplan would be a lot of shorter passing.

Also Bears have a decent pass rush so no reason to let them get going. Quick passing takes dlineman out of game and makes them make mistakes trying to make plays. It's a sound strategy against teams with a strong front 7.

Also its preseason no reason to let Cincy see how we will try to get WR deep.

Orton had Scheff for a big gain over the middle and just flat missed him. I'm more concerned about those throws then 50 yrd bombs.

Seriously though people give the guy at least 4-5 games of real football before you say he can't win here.

I understand the heartache, I wish the Cutler fiasco had not occurred. Especially when Smith gives up a big pass play.

cutthemdown
08-31-2009, 03:00 PM
I agree. Even thought it is a new O, to me it looks soooo much like the O with Griese at QB.

I disagree. Broncos really didn't throw a lot of screens back then. Also Broncos ran a lot of 2 back sets back then, this new team you see that a few times a game but not near as much.

Also not as much 2 TE as there was back then but yeah still a lot of it.

Also the blocking schemes look different to me. I saw some really nice stuff with Graham last night. He was dominating dends.

gtown
08-31-2009, 03:01 PM
Question for you... Why would he open it up come the regular season? Ortons abilities ae limited I think McD knows that. Requiring him to throw down the dlfield when he has looked average throwing short passes what does that say when he's asked to throw long? Do you really think he'll look better throwing deeper passes?

And I've seen many guys proclaim the same thing on this board tondefend Orton and our coach. That excuse is nothing but a joke.

It's preseason, nobody shows all of their cards. It's called strategery.

Beantown Bronco
08-31-2009, 03:03 PM
I'm more worried Orton is slow footed then about hs arm.



Seriously. He makes Tom Brady look like Usain Bolt.

DBroncos4life
08-31-2009, 03:06 PM
Folks, it's the preseason, teams do not show all of their plans ahead of time. Plus, I think since a new system with some newer players, getting the timing down on the shorter passes is what they deem most important right now since all teams throw more of those type passes than long bombs.
Yeah I bet Denver comes out throwing the long ball all year long and doesn't even run a single screen pass.

ElwayMD
08-31-2009, 03:07 PM
Question for you... Why would he open it up come the regular season? Ortons abilities ae limited I think McD knows that. Requiring him to throw down the dlfield when he has looked average throwing short passes what does that say when he's asked to throw long? Do you really think he'll look better throwing deeper passes?

And I've seen many guys proclaim the same thing on this board tondefend Orton and our coach. That excuse is nothing but a joke.

Because it's a common practice for every team to play vanilla in the preseason since you don't want your opposition to be able to game plan you before the season starts. When I used to live in Pittsburgh I would watch their preseason games and the defense would not blitz. Seems odd for a town named "blitzburgh" eh? It's done because they didn't want to give away their blitz packages.

This is the same reason why many believe that the Broncos are using a limited playbook so that teams won't know how to properly game plan for the offense. That being said I don't think the passing game will be very vertical. but I do believe there will be more intermediate level passes in the regular season offense.

Orange_Beard
08-31-2009, 04:15 PM
I disagree. Broncos really didn't throw a lot of screens back then. Also Broncos ran a lot of 2 back sets back then, this new team you see that a few times a game but not near as much.

Also not as much 2 TE as there was back then but yeah still a lot of it.

Also the blocking schemes look different to me. I saw some really nice stuff with Graham last night. He was dominating dends.

Like I said, it is a new O. I was not comparing the blocking schemes or how many backs in the backfield, the plays are all short passes. Teams will crowd the line, if we can't go over the top it will get ugly.

Graham is a monster.

Popps
08-31-2009, 04:19 PM
I am not too panicked about it. I think McD will open it up once the season starts. I think he knows what he has in his starters. .

I think so, too... though it's also a valid concern to have, imo.

I think we probably had it in the game-plan to push the ball down field more in this game, but Orton wasn't seeing/feeling it, and chose the underneath stuff.
Not a huge deal as long as you're moving the ball.

Still, I think we just need time to know. We haven't seen a single regular season game-plan. We've got some interesting deep threats in Lloyd and McKinley, now... so I expect to see the longer-ball as part of the offense. McDaniels can't possibly be planning to run a short-ball ONLY system. He just can't. He's got too much experience as a coordinator to assume you can run that and that alone.

Like all of this stuff, we just need to see more. Not an exciting answer, but it's the truth.



Last week, everyone on this forum wanted to cut Brandstater. Now people want him to be the starter.


Give it time.

elsid13
08-31-2009, 04:20 PM
What concern me the most about last night was how Chicago was attacking the A gaps to stop the run. They were to success with that tactic for my liking. That added to the limited zone blocking last night scares the **** out of me.

Bronco Yoda
08-31-2009, 04:38 PM
I really am not - and this goes back to my defense of Griese days. I think that you can have a successful offense that smartly dinks and dunks its way down the field and relies on the strength of the running game to open up the high percentage deep ball. It's essentially the same strategy that we had during our Superbowl days: chew up the clock, make the high percentage pass. Mix in some running. Take the deep ball only if it's absolutely there, otherwise, throw it away. It really turns into an issue of flat efficiency. Griese, when he was on, was throwing for us in the 115.0 level quarterback range. Of course, that 115.0 didn't typically come with a lot of play making. But in order to make that work (at least in my opinion), you have to have a star runningback, a star left tackle, and a star receiver.

The biggest question mark as far as I'm concerned isn't at quarterback - it's at runningback.


Sad thing is IMO Orton isn't as good as (pre shoulder injury) Griese. Just another reason to hate them raiders for nearly tearing Griese's arm off.

I'm more worried about Orton's lack of movement than arm strenght at this point.

I'm rooting for Orton but am not holding my breath....

errand
08-31-2009, 04:42 PM
Are you concerned with the lack of a big play, vertical passing game in the preseason so far?

I'm not concerned at all...McDaniel's offense is predicated in the belief that it's easier to throw for a 6 yard gain than run for one.

His offense is a one that throws alot of slants and screens with the bulk of the yards being created after the catch....which is why Wes Welker is thriving in NE, and Eddie royal and Brandon Stokely are having good preseason, and should have good numbers during regular season.

We will throw deep occasionally...but in all honesty it's a very high risk/high reward throw, and I think McDaniels would rather throw a low risk/medium reward pass, and hope the receiver can make that first guy miss and we net a big play from it. This is another reason why getting Orton in the deal was aplus...he's not the cannon armed big risk taker.

Our franchise QB we lost over the offseason threw 18 int's last season...I recall another Qb that preceeded him, who was blasted on here alot for throwing picks by throwing risky passes...but, at least he won games.

Bronco LB52
08-31-2009, 04:53 PM
Sad thing is IMO Orton isn't as good as (pre shoulder injury) Griese. Just another reason to hate them raiders for nearly tearing Griese's arm off.

I'm more worried about Orton's lack of movement than arm strenght at this point.

I'm rooting for Orton but am not holding my breath....

I agree that Orton isn't in Griese's class.

Best case scenario, we hope Orton can play similarly to how Chad Pennington played with Miami last year, but I don't see that happening. His career high in completion percentage is a below average mark of 58.5%. 5.8 career yards/attempt. +3 lifetime in TD/INTs. Nothing from Orton's career track record screams efficiency!

Even with the low risk-high percentage approach, Orton is still going to make his share of miscues where running this **** won't even be worthwhile.

UberBroncoMan
08-31-2009, 05:28 PM
his passes after 10yds are behind his recievers they run faster than he throws

:( :( :(

cutthemdown
08-31-2009, 05:29 PM
Like I said, it is a new O. I was not comparing the blocking schemes or how many backs in the backfield, the plays are all short passes. Teams will crowd the line, if we can't go over the top it will get ugly.

Graham is a monster.

really though thats what the WR screens are designed to do. The pull the CB's towards the LOS which gives us a chance to go deep. If we can run the ball, be effecient with a short passing game, then the chances to go deep will be there.

it's all part of a scheme and trust me this kid is a smart coach. We may not execute or have good enough players just yet, but the ideas are good ones.

I was watching some of the game just now and one thing that sticks out is guys are hustling. The team is playing hard for the coach and IMO that is the most important sign of all.

I bet Marshall gets his **** together and comes to play. I really hope that is what happens we need him.

cutthemdown
08-31-2009, 05:32 PM
Because it's a common practice for every team to play vanilla in the preseason since you don't want your opposition to be able to game plan you before the season starts. When I used to live in Pittsburgh I would watch their preseason games and the defense would not blitz. Seems odd for a town named "blitzburgh" eh? It's done because they didn't want to give away their blitz packages.

This is the same reason why many believe that the Broncos are using a limited playbook so that teams won't know how to properly game plan for the offense. That being said I don't think the passing game will be very vertical. but I do believe there will be more intermediate level passes in the regular season offense.

also those screens all about total cohesion with oline, wr, qb. A lot of timing in that so it makes perfect sense to work on that a lot. Especially after a couple of calls on the oline. That right there shows you they need the practice.

If you execute well, then the big plays will show themselves. Remember last yr with Cutler just throwing bombs against the Raiders but not completing any? It was a scheme that game that IMO was impatient and reckless.

lex
08-31-2009, 05:50 PM
I agree that Orton isn't in Griese's class.

Best case scenario, we hope Orton can play similarly to how Chad Pennington played with Miami last year, but I don't see that happening. His career high in completion percentage is a below average mark of 58.5%. 5.8 career yards/attempt. +3 lifetime in TD/INTs. Nothing from Orton's career track record screams efficiency!

Even with the low risk-high percentage approach, Orton is still going to make his share of miscues where running this **** won't even be worthwhile.

His INT % wasnt really that much better than Jays last year in spite of being less risky.

gtown
08-31-2009, 06:05 PM
also those screens all about total cohesion with oline, wr, qb. A lot of timing in that so it makes perfect sense to work on that a lot. Especially after a couple of calls on the oline. That right there shows you they need the practice.

I agree with this. The bread and butter of the McD system is the short passing game. With it being his first year in Denver, I think that he would want to build a strong foundation in preseason so they can at least be functional in a few weeks.

McD does not want to show all his cards. Our opponents will only have three, maybe four, game tapes to analyze before week 1. The bears obviously watched the first two - with Briggs and Urlacher lined up directly behind the d-line - so I can see him opening it up when the Bengals do the same thing. McD didn't get to where he is in the NFL at his age by being that myopic.

boppool
08-31-2009, 06:13 PM
With Orton, not only am I concerned about him keeping defenses honest with passes over 15 yards, I also feel he doesn't get enough zip on the ball on slants and intermediate routes. He's the Trevor Hoffman of quarterbacks!

Orton is more like Tim Wakefield of quarterbacks..

Broncos4tw
08-31-2009, 08:46 PM
Actually, the penalties are why we should be worried. It's ironic: The last year in particular, when we had a third and long situation, I for once since Elway, actually felt confident we would get it. I didn't feel that with any QB until Cutler.

Against the Bears, when they hard third downs, I actually felt like we were screwed. And Cutler did indeed, make some big plays, especially on the 98 yard drive. On the flip side, I am feeling the same 'ol again with Orton. Third and long? Prepare to punt. And this played out as on a 3rd and 18, we didn't even remotely think of going for it. Orton threw what... a 2 yard pass?

So, when we get penalties, we are even more in the hole. So either we need to be near penalty free, or on those drives where we get holding, it may well be the end of the drive. I can't fathom Orton making say, two 12 yard passes in a row. He has rarely even thrown for one.

Hamrob
08-31-2009, 10:15 PM
First of all, I respect everyone's opinion...because right now that's all we have.

My own opinion is; we won't go anywhere with kyle orton at QB. Last night was a prime example. Stack the box, take away the run, force three and outs. Defenses will be doing it all year.

Look, Brady isn't Elwayesque...but he will throw it deep and often if you load the box. He can also wing it 15-20 yds on a rope consistently.

Orton is the worst starter we've had in Denver since maybe bubby and how long did that last?

Our saving grace? McDaniels has one hell of an ego. When our offense starts to rank towards the lower escheon of teams in the NFL...he'll turn on the weak and noodle armed Orton.

We'll see what Simms can do at that point...and you know what...he just might impress us.

Lolad
08-31-2009, 10:36 PM
Question if this teams isn't top 15 in scoring and top 5 yards. Can we put the blame on McDaniels? Or is the excuse going to be it's a new scheme, so we should give it 1 more year?

summerdenver
08-31-2009, 11:07 PM
I really am not - and this goes back to my defense of Griese days. I think that you can have a successful offense that smartly dinks and dunks its way down the field and relies on the strength of the running game to open up the high percentage deep ball. It's essentially the same strategy that we had during our Superbowl days: chew up the clock, make the high percentage pass. Mix in some running. Take the deep ball only if it's absolutely there, otherwise, throw it away. It really turns into an issue of flat efficiency. Griese, when he was on, was throwing for us in the 115.0 level quarterback range. Of course, that 115.0 didn't typically come with a lot of play making. But in order to make that work (at least in my opinion), you have to have a star runningback, a star left tackle, and a star receiver.

The biggest question mark as far as I'm concerned isn't at quarterback - it's at runningback.

That seems to be our plan but the problem is that Kyle Orton had never been a very accurate QB. His best year is last year, when he threw mostly short passes, but still has only 58% completion percentage. For this to work, you have to be very efficient and one mistake is all you need to stop the drive.

One thing that was very clear last night was that if opp puts us in 3rd and long, its over. Last year Pittsburg ate Cassel alive, in NE no less and Cassel is better than Orton. Bal forced Eagles to bench Donoval McNabb, just think about it what will they do to Orton.

Odysseus
09-01-2009, 01:18 AM
I think McDaniel's quote says it all:

"Kyle was fine tonight,'' said McDaniels. "What was he, 12 of 16, something like that? [Exactly.] He's not our issue, and I don't believe he's going to be. He's a good player who knows what to do. He's accurate, he knows the offense, he's well-respected by the guys in the locker room. But it's hard to get into a rhythm when you have 10 penalties, six holding calls and put yourself in bad situations over and over again and it always seems like it's first-and-20.''


The emphasis is mine.

The underlined part is basically the word-for-word Griese defense that I made around here back in 2001. And it works for awhile. But quarterbacks like Griese (and his student, Kyle) are system quarterbacks. System quarterbacks are only as good as the strength of the system.

There has to be a culture change in Denver for this to work. It really is unfair to expect anything out of Kyle except basic execution. We're talking ball control passing, high QB ratings, and few interceptions. I think Kyle is capable of this. But if we have to start pressing downfield with the guy - well... I think that is going to end just as badly as having to press a field with Griese.

Broncos are going to have a long and difficult season. If you read through the coaches remarks again he was saying his team was not executing his plan which means his plan has already failed. This team is only going to be as good as there adjustments. Right now they look stiff and fragile.

Orton is not the problem but he is going to shoulder the largest chunk of the blame. We need a much better running attack. Two more games like this and I am in wait and see mode 2010.

cutthemdown
09-01-2009, 01:26 AM
Actually, the penalties are why we should be worried. It's ironic: The last year in particular, when we had a third and long situation, I for once since Elway, actually felt confident we would get it. I didn't feel that with any QB until Cutler.

Against the Bears, when they hard third downs, I actually felt like we were screwed. And Cutler did indeed, make some big plays, especially on the 98 yard drive. On the flip side, I am feeling the same 'ol again with Orton. Third and long? Prepare to punt. And this played out as on a 3rd and 18, we didn't even remotely think of going for it. Orton threw what... a 2 yard pass?

So, when we get penalties, we are even more in the hole. So either we need to be near penalty free, or on those drives where we get holding, it may well be the end of the drive. I can't fathom Orton making say, two 12 yard passes in a row. He has rarely even thrown for one.

honestly 3-18 is almost just give up time and get what you can for the punt. depends on the game of course, and the score etc.

But really no success when you are in 3rd and long. Broncos can't have penalties. They will kill any team, but especially one with the best playmaker holding out/suspended/lacking nuts.

Broncos need to get the kinks in blocking the screen worked out. Hope Kuper comes back. If not hope olson can play. Get marshall back and work him into game. Get Moreno healthy and add a playmaker to the mix.

Add that to a versatile Hillis who has shown he can do his role. Same with Graham and for most part Scheff. Scheff was open for a big gain and Orton missed him.

On defense I like Peterson/Feilds better then anything we have last yr. McBean isn't really doing it for me. I thought Baker looked promising even though he played little.

Doom looks like a fierce pass rusher but we need to keep him out of coverage as much as possible. I thought DJ looked better.

I worry about the CBS though they need to make more plays and play tougher. For once though early in game they were breaking in the zones quicker and making some things happen. Give the Broncos that safety the deserved when Pace was tackling Doom in the endzone and who knows how that game goes.

Not like Broncos were being schooled. Cutler had to get some great catches to make it work. That catch by the TE was really good.

We just need to add playmakers to the offense. Royal good, but he needs Marshall. Then we got to get Moreno into the game. He's got the most ability to make big plays as anyone on the team.

watermock
09-01-2009, 01:43 AM
The real reason they're not throwing deep in Dallas is because they're afraid of hitting Jerry's precious scoreboard. We have no such excuse.


exactly.

watermock
09-01-2009, 01:46 AM
I am concerend. I was not before, but i went to the game last night and now i do have a concern.

The bears shut down our run and always put the saftey in the box. On almost every play they had only 1 Saftey back. If we were to impliment a 2 man deep or streak with royal and marshall that means single coverage for one of them.....It also keeps the bears from putting the saftey so dam low.

Our problem was our passes were so short that the saftey was often there to break up the plays if the LB or DB wasnt. We were playing right into the defenses hands. I did not like that at all. AT ALL.

We need to get some 15+ plays in there, or atleast routes to keep them back. All night we were passing right into the heart of their defense and were running against 8 man fronts.

I know its preseason, but i did not like what i saw. We werent putting guys in each of the zones. Far short and middle. We are all just at the edge of short and middle- right where the heart of the defense is....

It needs to change.


Wow.

You saw the same game I did!

Vegas_Bronco
09-01-2009, 02:05 AM
Orton diagnosis....

- good manager material...but not a leader
- great persona
- not emotionally charged (good/bad)
- checks down (I like this in a QB)
- doesn't move the pocket
- stands there for too long instead of making the throw
- takes toooo damn long to get the ball off once he sees the open read
- extremely inaccurate when rushed
- other than that...he's kind of like good old bubby brister - you just don't know what you've got on any given day.

watermock
09-01-2009, 02:06 AM
Orton is more like Tim Wakefield of quarterbacks..

Ha!

watermock
09-01-2009, 02:09 AM
First of all, I respect everyone's opinion...because right now that's all we have.

My own opinion is; we won't go anywhere with kyle orton at QB. Last night was a prime example. Stack the box, take away the run, force three and outs. Defenses will be doing it all year.

Look, Brady isn't Elwayesque...but he will throw it deep and often if you load the box. He can also wing it 15-20 yds on a rope consistently.

Orton is the worst starter we've had in Denver since maybe bubby and how long did that last?

Our saving grace? McDaniels has one hell of an ego. When our offense starts to rank towards the lower escheon of teams in the NFL...he'll turn on the weak and noodle armed Orton.

We'll see what Simms can do at that point...and you know what...he just might impress us.

I see Brandy before that, and us not taking a QB next year as Beavis will work "wonders" with his pupil.Or so he will think when we are out of the race.

footstepsfrom#27
09-01-2009, 03:00 AM
Our saving grace? McDaniels has one hell of an ego. When our offense starts to rank towards the lower escheon of teams in the NFL...he'll turn on the weak and noodle armed Orton.
By George I never thought of it that way. You've given me a ray of hope! :spit:

maher_tyler
09-01-2009, 03:55 AM
Maybe we're practicing our weaknesses..hense we throw a lot of screens and short stuff. I bet we've ran more screen plays in the last 2 preseason games than we did all of last year. Seems like every time we run a screen a o-linemen is to far downfield...Ha!...i can hope can't I?? :sunshine:

errand
09-01-2009, 06:47 AM
My own opinion is; we won't go anywhere with kyle orton at QB. Last night was a prime example. Stack the box, take away the run, force three and outs. Defenses will be doing it all year.

.

Orton is missing a major weapon in Moreno.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFtszXrC0R0

Jesterhole
09-01-2009, 07:21 AM
If Orton is really lucky, he might be as good as Griese. That is the best we can hope for...no more long passes, deep out, firing it into a tight spot to score a TD. We traded that a away for a guy we want to 'manage' the game...presumably so our first rate D can win that game for us...

Orange_Beard
09-01-2009, 07:39 AM
I agree that Orton isn't in Griese's class.

Best case scenario, we hope Orton can play similarly to how Chad Pennington played with Miami last year, but I don't see that happening. His career high in completion percentage is a below average mark of 58.5%. 5.8 career yards/attempt. +3 lifetime in TD/INTs. Nothing from Orton's career track record screams efficiency!

Even with the low risk-high percentage approach, Orton is still going to make his share of miscues where running this **** won't even be worthwhile.

He is below Griese, he could not beat him out in Crytown.

Orange_Beard
09-01-2009, 07:41 AM
really though thats what the WR screens are designed to do. The pull the CB's towards the LOS which gives us a chance to go deep. If we can run the ball, be effecient with a short passing game, then the chances to go deep will be there.

it's all part of a scheme and trust me this kid is a smart coach. We may not execute or have good enough players just yet, but the ideas are good ones.

I was watching some of the game just now and one thing that sticks out is guys are hustling. The team is playing hard for the coach and IMO that is the most important sign of all.

I bet Marshall gets his **** together and comes to play. I really hope that is what happens we need him.

I hope so. I really do.

Cito Pelon
09-01-2009, 08:11 AM
I think there's reason for concern. Seems to me Orton just isn't looking downfield at all. But, he won't be opening the season so we'll see how Simms or Brand does with the starters.