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View Full Version : Is McDaniels making a big mistake by using the zone blocking scheme less?


bronco0608
08-16-2009, 10:07 AM
I'm all for helmet to helmet/ man on man blocking, but we look TERRIBLE doing it. Our line is simply not built to do that.

If I have one criticism of McDaniels, its the fact the he decided to mess with our bread and butter. He kept Dennison so he should have left our blocking schemes alone.

I didn't notice one sweet, beautiful cut back run all night long. Why is he doing this? What's the rationale behind this? Trying to toughen us up in the redzone to run?

I wonder how often he is going to use the ZBS this season. I think it is a mistake to get away from it.

lex
08-16-2009, 10:11 AM
I think its a mistake to get away from it. Hopefully, as the season moves forward, he'll rely on it more and more, it can be lethal especially with a better RB like Moreno.

Spider
08-16-2009, 10:15 AM
we will have to see what kind of runner Moreno is .......

bronco militia
08-16-2009, 10:22 AM
the only problem with the running game will be if hillis or moreno get injured this year

USMCBladerunner
08-16-2009, 10:26 AM
I saw a few times where the blocking broke down altogether, but I didn't think the running game was too bad, except Jordan.

I like that we are trying to get a power running attack capability established for the goal line, and I'd have like to see us try to run it in from the 6, but we didn't.

I'm still in wait and see mode, but I'm definitely watching.

cutthemdown
08-16-2009, 10:34 AM
I'm all for helmet to helmet/ man on man blocking, but we look TERRIBLE doing it. Our line is simply not built to do that.

If I have one criticism of McDaniels, its the fact the he decided to mess with our bread and butter. He kept Dennison so he should have left our blocking schemes alone.

I didn't notice one sweet, beautiful cut back run all night long. Why is he doing this? What's the rationale behind this? Trying to toughen us up in the redzone to run?

I wonder how often he is going to use the ZBS this season. I think it is a mistake to get away from it.

exactly what you said. Zone Blocking fails you in the redzone where it matters. We look great in between the 20's though.

cutthemdown
08-16-2009, 10:35 AM
we will have to see what kind of runner Moreno is .......

you could see he is special just by the few runs he got IMO. He looked slippery and hard to catch.

WolfpackGuy
08-16-2009, 11:11 AM
Since the Broncos linemen for the most part are mobile ZBS types, it appears they're going to use them as "blow you off the ball" roadgraders.

This new regime is growing on me more and more everyday...

TDmvp
08-16-2009, 11:26 AM
Since the Broncos linemen for the most part are mobile ZBS types, it appears they're going to use them as "blow you off the ball" roadgraders.

This new regime is growing on me more and more everyday...

/ponder , still trying to figure this one out .... So basically you are saying they are going to use them wrong ? or in such a way that is opposite to their skill set ... Brilliant ...

CHANGSTER
08-16-2009, 11:37 AM
I have to believe McD will use whatever scheme is most effective as the season progresses. I get the impression he's a "anything to win" kind of guy.

Don Flamenco
08-16-2009, 11:55 AM
/ponder , still trying to figure this one out .... So basically you are saying they are going to use them wrong ? Or in such a way that is opposite to their skill set ... Brilliant ...

lol

cutthemdown
08-16-2009, 11:58 AM
When you change to a new way of doing things there are growing pains. It's also safe to assume that since the Broncos lineman know how to zone block that early in preseason you would see them practicing what they don't know as well.

Honestly we have now done the same thing to football as we do politics. Micromanage every decision down to whether or not the coach is stupid now. Shanny was lucky we all knew he was smarter then both reeves, and certainly wade phillips who he replaced.

I saw some things in the loss that have me excited. I do agree we need more middle linebacking and the secondary has to get more comfy in there zones. You have to think so much more in a zone then man to man. Especially when offenses will run so many wr through your zone on the way to another zone.

It will take some time I'm not surprised some of the players looked slow to many of you. In football how fast you are matters nil until you are reacting quickly. Right now Broncos back end seemed a little slow to react. The dlineman IMO though showed they are bigger and more physical.

The WR look great even without BM. They seemed to be running crisp routes and catching ball with there hands. I thought Orton seemed to know where to go with the ball but yeah he blew it and needs a lot of work. He also seemed to throw late and tenative a couple times and he paid for it. Still nice picks by the defense, have to give them some credit.

Spider
08-16-2009, 12:01 PM
you could see he is special just by the few runs he got IMO. He looked slippery and hard to catch.
that 4 yard run where I thought Niners had him stopped in the backfield .....wow I never seen Emmit Smith do that ........ As to the zone blocking ?
who knows , but our guards are capable of pulling , we could even use a bastard scheme of the zone block and make a rolling pocket aka student body right or left .the days of Eric Dickerson and the rams .......

Bob's your Information Minister
08-16-2009, 12:01 PM
McDaniels is living in the shadow of Shanahan!

http://i30.tinypic.com/2ch9yjq.jpg

WolfpackGuy
08-16-2009, 12:02 PM
/ponder , still trying to figure this one out .... So basically you are saying they are going to use them wrong ? or in such a way that is opposite to their skill set ... Brilliant ...

I was being sarcastic... :)

lex
08-16-2009, 12:03 PM
When you change to a new way of doing things there are growing pains. It's also safe to assume that since the Broncos lineman know how to zone block that early in preseason you would see them practicing what they don't know as well.

Honestly we have now done the same thing to football as we do politics. Micromanage every decision down to whether or not the coach is stupid now. Shanny was lucky we all knew he was smarter then both reeves, and certainly wade phillips who he replaced.

I saw some things in the loss that have me excited. I do agree we need more middle linebacking and the secondary has to get more comfy in there zones. You have to think so much more in a zone then man to man. Especially when offenses will run so many wr through your zone on the way to another zone.

It will take some time I'm not surprised some of the players looked slow to many of you. In football how fast you are matters nil until you are reacting quickly. Right now Broncos back end seemed a little slow to react. The dlineman IMO though showed they are bigger and more physical.

The WR look great even without BM. They seemed to be running crisp routes and catching ball with there hands. I thought Orton seemed to know where to go with the ball but yeah he blew it and needs a lot of work. He also seemed to throw late and tenative a couple times and he paid for it. Still nice picks by the defense, have to give them some credit.


This is only blanket apologist spew. It has little to do with the topic.

tnedator
08-16-2009, 12:07 PM
exactly what you said. Zone Blocking fails you in the redzone where it matters. We look great in between the 20's though.

Clearly, with the right linemen and back, it works find in the redzone. Ask Green Bay.

However, in recent years (last 4-5), it was much less effective in short yardage and goal line situations. Was that the linemen? Was it being further removed from Alex Gibbs coaching? Was it the runners? Was it moving away from the cut blocking and getting D linemen on the ground (see further removed from Gibbs coaching)?

I don't know why it became less effective, but clearly the problem was not simply that ZBS isn't effective in the red zone.

BroncoMan4ever
08-16-2009, 12:09 PM
you could see he is special just by the few runs he got IMO. He looked slippery and hard to catch.

his pad level it was incredible how low he got, and his vision, he had a nice cutback run on his 1st carry.

on the actual topic of the thread, i feel we are going to use more of the ZBS when we are between the 20s, but when we cross into the red zone, we are going to go straight up man blocking and be more power running oriented. the ZBS doesn't work in the red zone.

broncosteven
08-16-2009, 12:11 PM
you could see he is special just by the few runs he got IMO. He looked slippery and hard to catch.

I agree with this. I am on his bandwagon.

I thought the 1st team blocked real well. I rewatched the start of the game and focused on Kuper. He was playing to/beyond the whistle, he was tossing guys around and knocking guys off the ball.

On one of Knowshon's runs Kuper pulled and if he didn't trip over another Bronco's feet he could have got into the secondary and Knowshon could have been gone.

I am all for mixing ZBS and traps, pulls, counters. You can't rely on one system in the league anymore. People have seen it all, even formations that were dormant for 30 years.

I didn't think Buck or Jordan should be anything more than backups to Knowshon and Hills.

broncosteven
08-16-2009, 12:14 PM
McDaniels is living in the shadow of Shanahan!

http://i30.tinypic.com/2ch9yjq.jpg

Technically your new HC is living in the shadow of Hank Stram.

cutthemdown
08-16-2009, 12:20 PM
Clearly, with the right linemen and back, it works find in the redzone. Ask Green Bay.

However, in recent years (last 4-5), it was much less effective in short yardage and goal line situations. Was that the linemen? Was it being further removed from Alex Gibbs coaching? Was it the runners? Was it moving away from the cut blocking and getting D linemen on the ground (see further removed from Gibbs coaching)?

I don't know why it became less effective, but clearly the problem was not simply that ZBS isn't effective in the red zone.

well for one rule changes affected how the guys could cut people. Also as more and more teams used it defenses learned how to defend it a little better.

Broncos are learning many new things. I'm sure by end of the season they will find some identity. But if people are expecting playoffs and beyond you are bound to be let down.

IMO with Shanny and Cutler here we would still have the same problems as far as getting over powered at the LOS. It will take another yr or 2 for the defense to have a stud MLB, a true SSOLB, younger more athletic safties, and bigger better dlineman.

I like fields though I thought he looked good and is going to help us in that dept. Also Peterson I thought played physical. It's a small step in the right direction.

lex
08-16-2009, 12:23 PM
Clearly, with the right linemen and back, it works find in the redzone. Ask Green Bay.

However, in recent years (last 4-5), it was much less effective in short yardage and goal line situations. Was that the linemen? Was it being further removed from Alex Gibbs coaching? Was it the runners? Was it moving away from the cut blocking and getting D linemen on the ground (see further removed from Gibbs coaching)?

I don't know why it became less effective, but clearly the problem was not simply that ZBS isn't effective in the red zone.

Exactly. The drop off in our running game was a result of neglect in trying to make the defense better and perhaps even seeing Gibbs walk. Instead of maintaining a position of strength, Shanahan overrelied on his acumen to keep it working while selling pieces of the running game (Portis and Droughs) to improve the defense.

The system was and still is more than viable. A lot of teams use this. It comes down to personnel.

tnedator
08-16-2009, 12:26 PM
well for one rule changes affected how the guys could cut people. Also as more and more teams used it defenses learned how to defend it a little better.
.

The only rule change I am aware of was cutting on the back side (or a linemen not involved in the main part) of the play, which they put in place 3 or 4 years ago.

You still see Hamilton take guys legs out (not sure about this year, but he was still doing it last year), but most of the new linemen stay on their feet.

I'm not saying I want to go back to cutting the defensive linemen, but that was how the small, undersized, but athletic O-line could dominate the D-line, by getting low and taking them to the ground in a completely legal manner (it's only a chop block if the defender is engaged by two offensive players, one high and one low).

footstepsfrom#27
08-16-2009, 12:26 PM
I'm all for helmet to helmet/ man on man blocking, but we look TERRIBLE doing it. Our line is simply not built to do that.

If I have one criticism of McDaniels, its the fact the he decided to mess with our bread and butter. He kept Dennison so he should have left our blocking schemes alone.

I didn't notice one sweet, beautiful cut back run all night long. Why is he doing this? What's the rationale behind this? Trying to toughen us up in the redzone to run?

I wonder how often he is going to use the ZBS this season. I think it is a mistake to get away from it.
Interesting thread. I've been wondering the same thing. As great as Clady is, his game is built on speed and agility more than pure power, and he merely typifies the rest of the line as far as our run blocking goes...same with Harris, Kuper and Weigman...Kuper's the only one who has a bit more of a power blocking game. The SZB system has to have linemen with those characteristics, and while we were the only team looking for them, we had carte blanche on who we could draft. Moving to a new system that relies on power is something I'm on board with, but I question how effective run blocking this unit will be playing that system. Maybe it's a function of time however. If so we should expect improvement as the year goes along.

lex
08-16-2009, 12:27 PM
well for one rule changes affected how the guys could cut people. Also as more and more teams used it defenses learned how to defend it a little better.

Broncos are learning many new things. I'm sure by end of the season they will find some identity. But if people are expecting playoffs and beyond you are bound to be let down.

IMO with Shanny and Cutler here we would still have the same problems as far as getting over powered at the LOS. It will take another yr or 2 for the defense to have a stud MLB, a true SSOLB, younger more athletic safties, and bigger better dlineman.

I like fields though I thought he looked good and is going to help us in that dept. Also Peterson I thought played physical. It's a small step in the right direction.


Had they been willing to use higher picks on addressing the running game, previous levels of success would have been more attainable. When you neglect the running game in an effort to address the defense, you end up making compromises.

footstepsfrom#27
08-16-2009, 12:38 PM
Clearly, with the right linemen and back, it works find in the redzone. Ask Green Bay.

However, in recent years (last 4-5), it was much less effective in short yardage and goal line situations. Was that the linemen? Was it being further removed from Alex Gibbs coaching? Was it the runners? Was it moving away from the cut blocking and getting D linemen on the ground (see further removed from Gibbs coaching)?

I don't know why it became less effective, but clearly the problem was not simply that ZBS isn't effective in the red zone.
That is a great point. The history of every offensive innovation thorughout the entire time the NFL has been in existence, shows that over time strategies, formations, philosophies, etc...tend to come into being, become successful, get copied by others, and eventually disappear as teams catch on to what is happening and adjust. When we were the only team playing this system, nobody got to practice agaisnt it or encounter it until they played us. Then Atlanta started using it, and before we knew it, we were no longer the only team looking for the talent to play the system, nor were other teams unfamiliar with defensing it.

We need to move to a power game but we will have some growing pains in doing so I believe.

cutthemdown
08-16-2009, 12:43 PM
The only rule change I am aware of was cutting on the back side (or a linemen not involved in the main part) of the play, which they put in place 3 or 4 years ago.

You still see Hamilton take guys legs out (not sure about this year, but he was still doing it last year), but most of the new linemen stay on their feet.

I'm not saying I want to go back to cutting the defensive linemen, but that was how the small, undersized, but athletic O-line could dominate the D-line, by getting low and taking them to the ground in a completely legal manner (it's only a chop block if the defender is engaged by two offensive players, one high and one low).

with that change, and the emphasis using fines, players just not going for the legs as much because if they time it wrong, and another player even touching the guy high, it's a huge fine.

I can see a big difference in how these broncos cut, and how the old broncos cut. Dan Neil was a frigging kneecap hunter, and stinky never saw a knee that was worst then his so he cut the **** out of them.

Zimmerman at this point just loads better all around then Clady. Clady may get that strong but he isn't yet. I think he will, but he isn't Zimm yet.

There are just loads of differences, rule changes, fines, etc etc.

The game has changed and what you need now are bigger players.

cutthemdown
08-16-2009, 12:45 PM
No doubt in anyones mind they are trying to get players to not go low. Have to get up off ground before hitting qb now?

lex
08-16-2009, 12:47 PM
That is a great point. The history of every offensive innovation thorughout the entire time the NFL has been in existence, shows that over time strategies, formations, philosophies, etc...tend to come into being, become successful, get copied by others, and eventually disappear as teams catch on to what is happening and adjust. When we were the only team playing this system, nobody got to practice agaisnt it or encounter it until they played us. Then Atlanta started using it, and before we knew it, we were no longer the only team looking for the talent to play the system, nor were other teams unfamiliar with defensing it.

We need to move to a power game but we will have some growing pains in doing so I believe.

We also adapted a philosophy of grooming less talented linemen who had specific skillsets. Had we drafted more talented linemen with more well versed skill sets, it could have still worked. We were willing to take a lot of the technician types, with technician being a euphemism for not very strong. Mark Schlereth had freakish strength for his size. Im not sure people realize that. Now we have Hamilton who gets ragdolled too frequently. Im a stout defender of the system but not of the approach that you take limited lineman to try to make it work. That approach may be ok at one point in time--or perhaps its more the case that you were fortunate that a couple of those guys worked out-- but you need to start with the performance that you require and work your way back to what you need to do to get that performance. Thats better than taking youre old approach to acquiring talent that worked before and then applying it hoping it will still work.

cutthemdown
08-16-2009, 12:48 PM
Had they been willing to use higher picks on addressing the running game, previous levels of success would have been more attainable. When you neglect the running game in an effort to address the defense, you end up making compromises.

I guess Shanny bought into the myth he could just draft any rb in latter rounds and they would be a stud.

He failed to realize what a talent portis was in the 2nd, should have been first. Failed to take into consideration how much heart Mike Anderson had. Then decided he really did know TD was going to be special, but if so what take him so late? Why because Shanny had no idea. He lived off off Gibbs blocking strategies and that allowed him to implement his passing game.

Also at one point Shanny was a slick play caller but he lost that at some point. If he comes back, I bet Shanny is calling plays again.

lex
08-16-2009, 12:50 PM
with that change, and the emphasis using fines, players just not going for the legs as much because if they time it wrong, and another player even touching the guy high, it's a huge fine.

I can see a big difference in how these broncos cut, and how the old broncos cut. Dan Neil was a frigging kneecap hunter, and stinky never saw a knee that was worst then his so he cut the **** out of them.

Zimmerman at this point just loads better all around then Clady. Clady may get that strong but he isn't yet. I think he will, but he isn't Zimm yet.

There are just loads of differences, rule changes, fines, etc etc.

The game has changed and what you need now are bigger players.

You need stronger players who are athletic enough and not just athletic linemen. Its in the approach you take to acquiring talent.

cutthemdown
08-16-2009, 12:51 PM
Hamilton is a better center then guard IMO, even though he played guard almost the whole way. If not for Nalen he would have been the Center IMO. Credit him with being versatile.

Also last yr vs Atlanta Hamtilton was moving bigger players all over the field. So he can do it but for sure he needs the offense firing on all cylindars for him to be able to beat his guy. If the offense struggles, smaller guys like him are the first to get dominated.

I saw it even in HS football. Guy looks great when the bigger more talented guys can beat there guys. But once there talented guys beat your talented guys, the smaller less talented players are in for a hurtin.

I think if Clady plays big, Hamilton can make blocks. It would be nice to have a stronger player there though I agree.

tnedator
08-16-2009, 12:54 PM
with that change, and the emphasis using fines, players just not going for the legs as much because if they time it wrong, and another player even touching the guy high, it's a huge fine.

I can see a big difference in how these broncos cut, and how the old broncos cut. Dan Neil was a frigging kneecap hunter, and stinky never saw a knee that was worst then his so he cut the **** out of them.

Zimmerman at this point just loads better all around then Clady. Clady may get that strong but he isn't yet. I think he will, but he isn't Zimm yet.

There are just loads of differences, rule changes, fines, etc etc.

The game has changed and what you need now are bigger players.

The biggest difference is no Alex Gibbs. He taught that style, and didn't care what rep the Broncos had. The Dennison clearly didn't teach the same style.

lex
08-16-2009, 12:59 PM
I guess Shanny bought into the myth he could just draft any rb in latter rounds and they would be a stud.

He failed to realize what a talent portis was in the 2nd, should have been first. Failed to take into consideration how much heart Mike Anderson had. Then decided he really did know TD was going to be special, but if so what take him so late? Why because Shanny had no idea. He lived off off Gibbs blocking strategies and that allowed him to implement his passing game.

Also at one point Shanny was a slick play caller but he lost that at some point. If he comes back, I bet Shanny is calling plays again.

I dont think he lost that. I think it all ties back to neglecting the running game. Once again, Denver forewent their competitive advantage (ie their running game) to improve othe areas and over time, they weakened what was their competitive advantage. When teams no longer have to respect your running game like they had before, that limits the results in your play calling.

Shanahan's Xs and Os were on par with anyone even to the end. But the percieved shortcomings started when he chose to weaken his competitive advantage.

And the reason I know Shanahan was still on his game in Xs and Os was because he was 5-1 vs Bradichick. Belichick had the better QB and the better defense during those years. How does that happen if not from Shanahan's acumen? It doesnt. The last time Shanahan faced Bradichick was in 2006 at New England. That was only two years ago. The game hasnt passed Shanahan by during that time. You can look at other factors like what I mentioned plus roster turnover at several positions and also the defense. Denver's problems hasnt been Shanahans acumen.

If anything Shanahan's career has been based on reinvention. Like I said before, Shanahan had been around a lot of offense well before he got with the Niners. He had seen a lot of offense well before he signed of on incorporating the ZBS. Its kind of silly to think that suddenly now, Shanahan's not able to keep up with the curve.

rastaman
08-16-2009, 01:21 PM
I'm all for helmet to helmet/ man on man blocking, but we look TERRIBLE doing it. Our line is simply not built to do that.

If I have one criticism of McDaniels, its the fact the he decided to mess with our bread and butter. He kept Dennison so he should have left our blocking schemes alone.

I didn't notice one sweet, beautiful cut back run all night long. Why is he doing this? What's the rationale behind this? Trying to toughen us up in the redzone to run?

I wonder how often he is going to use the ZBS this season. I think it is a mistake to get away from it.

I was afraid McD was going to go this. The fact he retained Turner and Dennison wasn't necessarily to continue the ZBS, but more so to teach Turner and Dennison his hybrid running attack scheme.

For what its worth, the only way McD could have kept the number 2 offense in the NFL in tact (minus Shanahan), would have been to keep Bates and Cuttler; while allowing Turner and Dennison to deploy the ZBS his first year. After that, McD should have "Gradually" implemented his own system while keeping the successfull parts of he old system.

This would have been McD's best chance with ensuring Bowlen gives him a 2nd contract. The decisions McD has made thus far more than likely ensures he will be gone in 3 to 4 years. And we Bronco Fans will be going thru another rebuilding period with a 2nd new HC since Shanny was fired.

However, it looks as though McD has fallen prey to his own EGO! Like I said earlier McD is 30 something year old rookie HC.....and he's got some learning to do.

footstepsfrom#27
08-16-2009, 01:48 PM
We also adapted a philosophy of grooming less talented linemen who had specific skillsets. Had we drafted more talented linemen with more well versed skill sets, it could have still worked. We were willing to take a lot of the technician types, with technician being a euphemism for not very strong.
I tend to present that their talent as "different", not less talent, but different kind of talent. NBA basketball players are possibly the best athletes around, but their skill set doesn't really translate to the NFL and vice versa...I'm using this as an analogy here. We were looking for s specific kind of skill set based not on brute strength but on mobility and speed, traits that your average 340 pounders don't have. When only one ZBS team existed, we go the pick of the litter for players who fit that system. But with 8 or 10 teams running this system, the existing talent pool was fished by all of them, leaving us to scrounge for whatever we could get instead of getting the best.
Mark Schlereth had freakish strength for his size. Im not sure people realize that. Now we have Hamilton who gets ragdolled too frequently. Im a stout defender of the system but not of the approach that you take limited lineman to try to make it work. That approach may be ok at one point in time--or perhaps its more the case that you were fortunate that a couple of those guys worked out-- but you need to start with the performance that you require and work your way back to what you need to do to get that performance. Thats better than taking youre old approach to acquiring talent that worked before and then applying it hoping it will still work.
What you seem to be saying is something I was suggesting in here since I got here in 2005...that the ZBS alone should not be the basis of our offensive line, but we should spend high draft picks on those rare Clady-like players who combine both size/power with speed. You don't generally find those guys in the 5th round, so hence my point was, let's prioritize the O-line. The current line is the closest we've gotten to this, and it seems to be capable of performing both in the power game and in the ZBS. At least it's no longer the same smallish group we once had that was the puniest in the league. They're not the biggest, but there as big as a lot of other NFL lines that do not use the ZBS. I think they have the ability to use both systems, but it will take time to develop it effectively.

lex
08-16-2009, 01:54 PM
I tend to present that their talent as "different", not less talent, but different kind of talent. NBA basketball players are possibly the best athletes around, but their skill set doesn't really translate to the NFL and vice versa...I'm using this as an analogy here. We were looking for s specific kind of skill set based not on brute strength but on mobility and speed, traits that your average 340 pounders don't have. When only one ZBS team existed, we go the pick of the litter for players who fit that system. But with 8 or 10 teams running this system, the existing talent pool was fished by all of them, leaving us to scrounge for whatever we could get instead of getting the best.

What you seem to be saying is something I was suggesting in here since I got here in 2005...that the ZBS alone should not be the basis of our offensive line, but we should spend high draft picks on those rare Clady-like players who combine both size/power with speed. You don't generally find those guys in the 5th round, so hence my point was, let's prioritize the O-line. The current line is the closest we've gotten to this, and it seems to be capable of performing both in the power game and in the ZBS. At least it's no longer the same smallish group we once had that was the puniest in the league. They're not the biggest, but there as big as a lot of other NFL lines that do not use the ZBS. I think they have the ability to use both systems, but it will take time to develop it effectively.

Players that are both athletic enough and strong enough, tend do go higher in the draft. Those guys can fit in to multiple systems. When you target lower round guys, youre often looking for either/or...occasionally you sometimes get someone really raw who could be both.

cutthemdown
08-16-2009, 01:59 PM
I dont think he lost that. I think it all ties back to neglecting the running game. Once again, Denver forewent their competitive advantage (ie their running game) to improve othe areas and over time, they weakened what was their competitive advantage. When teams no longer have to respect your running game like they had before, that limits the results in your play calling.

Shanahan's Xs and Os were on par with anyone even to the end. But the percieved shortcomings started when he chose to weaken his competitive advantage.

And the reason I know Shanahan was still on his game in Xs and Os was because he was 5-1 vs Bradichick. Belichick had the better QB and the better defense during those years. How does that happen if not from Shanahan's acumen? It doesnt. The last time Shanahan faced Bradichick was in 2006 at New England. That was only two years ago. The game hasnt passed Shanahan by during that time. You can look at other factors like what I mentioned plus roster turnover at several positions and also the defense. Denver's problems hasnt been Shanahans acumen.

If anything Shanahan's career has been based on reinvention. Like I said before, Shanahan had been around a lot of offense well before he got with the Niners. He had seen a lot of offense well before he signed of on incorporating the ZBS. Its kind of silly to think that suddenly now, Shanahan's not able to keep up with the curve.

yeah but then why can't we beat Miami? Look at their record vs Broncos. Does that mean Shanny was outcoached by the fish coaches of the era?

Some teams just have other teams numbers. We seem to play well and not make as many bonehead turnovers vs Pats. In turn we seem to make those bonehaed mistakes often vs The Fish.

Who knows I think Shanny gave the dutites to Kubiak to show he could be a head coach, after that he seemed to not be as good at it, or just delegated it to someone else. Last yr Bates who IMO threw too much.

footstepsfrom#27
08-16-2009, 02:04 PM
Players that are both athletic enough and strong enough, tend do go higher in the draft. Those guys can fit in to multiple systems. When you target lower round guys, youre often looking for either/or...occasionally you sometimes get someone really raw who could be both.
Exactly. Clearly we can no longer rely on only the system to beat defenses...talent has to be the determinator, which it now is I think. This current line has the talent to compare with the Super Bowl lines. One thing about that team, the presence of a QB like Elway who could make plays with both his arm and his feet, minimized our deficiencies in the red zone. Teams couldn't square off and focus only on Davis when he could burn them with his arm as well, zipping the ball into tight places in the end zone. We no longer have that, so we will have to rely on this system that McD has brought to overcome this. I have hopes it will work, but there may be a reason it hasn't worked anywhere Tom Brady wasn't the quarterback.

lex
08-16-2009, 02:08 PM
yeah but then why can't we beat Miami? Look at their record vs Broncos. Does that mean Shanny was outcoached by the fish coaches of the era?

Some teams just have other teams numbers. We seem to play well and not make as many bonehead turnovers vs Pats. In turn we seem to make those bonehaed mistakes often vs The Fish.

Who knows I think Shanny gave the dutites to Kubiak to show he could be a head coach, after that he seemed to not be as good at it, or just delegated it to someone else. Last yr Bates who IMO threw too much.

No. We played Miami the very first game with Griese at QB and in the year before we played them in a meaningless game (in 1998 we had HFA locked up). In the playoffs we embarrassed them.

No, I think with New England, theyre predicated on being smart and making reads off of formations and tendencies(yes more than other teams). Shanahan was masterful at disguising plays by running the same play out of multiple formations. If youre a team that pins a lot of emphasis on processing that kind of information, that can jam you up.

lex
08-16-2009, 02:14 PM
Exactly. Clearly we can no longer rely on only the system to beat defenses...talent has to be the determinator, which it now is I think. This current line has the talent to compare with the Super Bowl lines. One thing about that team, the presence of a QB like Elway who could make plays with both his arm and his feet, minimized our deficiencies in the red zone. Teams couldn't square off and focus only on Davis when he could burn them with his arm as well, zipping the ball into tight places in the end zone. We no longer have that, so we will have to rely on this system that McD has brought to overcome this. I have hopes it will work, but there may be a reason it hasn't worked anywhere Tom Brady wasn't the quarterback.


No, I think we found undervalued players because they didnt fit what was conventional at that time...guys like Schlereth. I think the running game dictated terms in most situations. In 1998 Davis had 2000 yards and over 20 TDs...so it was fairly predictable that we were running then. In fact, we won 2 SBs by being able to run the ball going against great defenses that knew they had to stop the run (every team we played in the 1998 playoffs was both a top 5 defense in yards and points). With Elway, they had to defend the whole field. Elway's arm kept them off the LOS but that was less in play near the goal line where it was a shorter field.

UberBroncoMan
08-16-2009, 02:15 PM
I'm all for helmet to helmet/ man on man blocking, but we look TERRIBLE doing it. Our line is simply not built to do that.

If I have one criticism of McDaniels, its the fact the he decided to mess with our bread and butter. He kept Dennison so he should have left our blocking schemes alone.

I didn't notice one sweet, beautiful cut back run all night long. Why is he doing this? What's the rationale behind this? Trying to toughen us up in the redzone to run?

I wonder how often he is going to use the ZBS this season. I think it is a mistake to get away from it.

Why anyone would get rid of a system that turned mediocre RB's in to stat stars and great RB's into super stars is beyond me. Power running in the 5's is cool to me, but I'd keep us highly ZBS outside of scenarios that call for power blocking.

lex
08-16-2009, 02:19 PM
Why anyone would get rid of a system that turned mediocre RB's in to stat stars and great RB's into super stars is beyond me. Power running in the 5's is cool to me, but I'd keep us highly ZBS outside of scenarios that call for power blocking.

cosign.

Im not averse to other kinds of plays. They have their place. But as we've been discussing, the ZBS is a lethal as it gets where running is concerned. Its been effectively used by other teams recently. My hope is that McDaniels will rely on it more and more as the season progresses. He said he wanted to use ZBS in New England but didnt have the horses to do it. Hopefully, between Hillis/Moreno, Turner, and Dennison its used a lot.