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View Full Version : Phil Simms took 6 years to start...like father like son?


footstepsfrom#27
08-16-2009, 12:20 AM
Having seen how Phil Simms devastated the Broncos in the '87 Super Bowl, it's hard to imagine that he almost never got the chance to become a starting QB in the NFL. I can still see that in my head...the Super Bowl record for completion percentage until Brady broke it...ugh.

Ever since Chris Simms lost out to the less talented, but more productive Major Applewhite as the University of Texas quarterback, he's been dogged with the under achiever label by some fans who expected him to live up to his dad's reputation immediately. Simms was considered the top high school QB in the country when he got to Texas, but Applewhite was a virtual coach on the field, even quitting the Patriots camp in 2002 to accept a coaching gig. He's now the youngest Division I offensive coordinator in college football at age 31.

In a lot of ways, I think Simms was done a disservice by former Texas coach Mac Brown, who seemed content to recruit talent and rely on that ahead of spending time coaching players. In retrospect, Simms would probably have been better off had he attended Tennessee as he originally planned on instead of Texas.

I've always wondered if Simms would ever follow in his dad's footsteps and make it as a starter or not so I looked up a bit on Phil. It turns out the parallels are interesting. Phil Simms had initial success his rookie year, starting a few games and finishing runner up for ROY, but then went through the next 4 years plagued by mediocrity due to poor play, injuries and inconsistency. Simms, who Bill Walsh wanted over Joe Montana but lost when the Giants made him the #7 pick in the draft, did not find his groove and settle in as a solid starter until his 6th season in the NFL. He was even dumped by Bill Parcells in favor of Scott Bruner. Scott Bruner!

This is Chris Simms 6th year in the league...actually he sat out almost two seasons because of the spleen injury so he's played very little since 2005 with only 4 starts. That 2005 season was actually not bad. He started 10 games and finished with a 61% completion percentage and a respectable 81.4 QB rating. But personal problems with Jon Gruden caused the Bucs to let him go...another opportunity wasted.

Simms is unquestionably a better talent than Orton, and his arm is noticeably stronger. That was obvious in the game last night. This is my question here...could Simms follow his dad's pathway and emerge as the starter for this team in his 6th year the way his dad did at the same time in his career? It would take more poor performances by Orton, but at this point, it seems more possible than it did a couple days ago. Maybe it comes down to an issue of which one has a better grasp of the offense, which is probably where Orton shines, but at some point, might that change as Simms gets more acclimated to this system?

He has the talent. If McDaniels is the QB coach and offensive mind everyone seems to think he is, isn't it possible Simms could be coached up to the QB he was supposed to be all along?

WolfpackGuy
08-16-2009, 12:26 AM
Wake me up when the Broncos get the 1985-86 Lawrence Taylor.

Ratboy
08-16-2009, 12:28 AM
http://www.justinbuist.org/blog/images/polar-bear-face-palm_thumbnail.jpg

Bob's your Information Minister
08-16-2009, 12:28 AM
I think the key was a healthy spleen.

Ratboy
08-16-2009, 12:30 AM
Wake me up when the Broncos get the 1985-86 Lawrence Taylor.

Hey, don't worry! Moss had a 1 on 1 session with Coach Nunnely and he's ready to break out.

atomicbloke
08-16-2009, 12:38 AM
We should have signed Jeff Garcia this offseason. A solid veteran QB would have been good to hold the fort for a few seasons with this offense.

footstepsfrom#27
08-16-2009, 12:46 AM
Wake me up when the Broncos get the 1985-86 Lawrence Taylor.
This has..what...to do with either Simms?

Killericon
08-16-2009, 12:46 AM
I think the key was a healthy spleen.

I think the key was being good.

footstepsfrom#27
08-16-2009, 12:48 AM
We should have signed Jeff Garcia this offseason. A solid veteran QB would have been good to hold the fort for a few seasons with this offense.
He's 39...how many does he have left?

misturanderson
08-16-2009, 12:48 AM
We should have signed Jeff Garcia this offseason. A solid veteran QB would have been good to hold the fort for a few seasons with this offense.

Except that he's 39 years old and his body almost certainly won't hold up for more than this year, if that.

footstepsfrom#27
08-16-2009, 12:50 AM
I think the key was being good.
That's really my point...Phill Simims went through a series of circumstantial problems before anyone realized he wasn't a flop. His kid has talent, and he's gone through similar circumstances. Why don't you think it's possible that he might emerge?

Don't you have faith in McDaniels?

OCBronco
08-16-2009, 12:54 AM
Frankly, I think it's going to take an injury to Orton for Simms to see the field this season. McD found his guy, and is going to do everything he can to make it work, come hell or high water.

Popps
08-16-2009, 12:55 AM
I was excited when we signed Simms. I liked what I saw of him in Tampa, given... for a short period of time.

I wonder why it is that Orton passed him up in camp? I don't really buy into any conspiracy theories about Orton being part of the Cutler trade, hence HAS to be McD's starter. McDaniels would start Matt Prater at QB if he thought it would win him games.

Simms ran what looked like a much simpler version of our offense last night, even on second viewing. It'll be interesting to see if he can catch up to Orton as far as at least knowing the playbook.

I like both of these guys. Neither is Pro Bowl physical-talent, but I think both have showed flashes of being winners and good leaders.

It'll be fun to watch this play out...

OCBronco
08-16-2009, 12:56 AM
I should add that I really like Simms as a player, and I've always been surprised that he hasn't become a solid starter in the league yet.

Killericon
08-16-2009, 12:59 AM
That's really my point...Phill Simims went through a series of circumstantial problems before anyone realized he wasn't a flop. His kid has talent, and he's gone through similar circumstances. Why don't you think it's possible that he might emerge?

Don't you have faith in McDaniels?

Not yet I don't. I like him, but I don't have faith.

WolfpackGuy
08-16-2009, 01:00 AM
This has..what...to do with either Simms?

I'm just saying that there is no way the Giants needed Phil Simms to win that Super Bowl.
And I'm also saying that there is no way Chris Simms is the answer in Denver.

footstepsfrom#27
08-16-2009, 01:11 AM
I'm just saying that there is no way the Giants needed Phil Simms to win that Super Bowl.
And I'm also saying that there is no way Chris Simms is the answer in Denver.
Actually I think possibily they did need him to win it. Denver was ahead at halftime, and it was Siimms disecting the Denver secondary that was the primary reason they couldn't hang with them.

In any case...you need to define the word "answer". I didn't say either one was the answer...we traded the answer. But we have two options here...and in game situations only one has looked good so far. In any case, the rap on Chris Simms hasn't really been his talent.

I'll repeat the question...if his dad could finally get it after 5 years, why not his kid also?

shakenbake
08-16-2009, 01:13 AM
Simms never "lost out" to Applewhite. Applewhite was/is a legend at UT and Simms was practically given the job. It was because of the fact he never could beat OU, and the Big 12 title game debacle in 2001, where he had 4 turnovers in the first half, before being replaced by Applewhite who came close to bringing us back, that he isn't embraced in Austin. Many people feel to this day, had Applewhite been the fulltime starter in 2001 we would have won a NC that year

thumpc
08-16-2009, 01:23 AM
I bet Simms can run a mean bootleg too.

footstepsfrom#27
08-16-2009, 01:30 AM
Simms never "lost out" to Applewhite. Applewhite was/is a legend at UT and Simms was practically given the job. It was because of the fact he never could beat OU, and the Big 12 title game debacle in 2001, where he had 4 turnovers in the first half, before being replaced by Applewhite who came close to bringing us back, that he isn't embraced in Austin. Many people feel to this day, had Applewhite been the fulltime starter in 2001 we would have won a NC that year
All of that basically means that he lost out to Applewhite.

Hercules Rockefeller
08-16-2009, 01:32 AM
We should have signed Jeff Garcia this offseason. A solid veteran QB would have been good to hold the fort for a few seasons with this offense.

He's been on the market for 5 months and no one has signed him, what does that tell you?

misturanderson
08-16-2009, 01:41 AM
He's been on the market for 5 months and no one has signed him, what does that tell you?

He's actually on the raiders.

baja
08-16-2009, 01:43 AM
I smell a QB controversy brewing.

Archer81
08-16-2009, 01:45 AM
Honestly I believe this is the babysitter QB year. The guy who starts for us in Cinci wont be starting for us opening day 2010. So, this season will be interesting, like building a car from scratch...just need to get a better engine.


:Broncos:

easymobee
08-16-2009, 02:14 AM
We should have signed Jeff Garcia this offseason. A solid veteran QB would have been good to hold the fort for a few seasons with this offense.

Absolutely not. I'd take Hugh Millen or Ken Karcher over Jeff Garcia.

Simms played well last night. It gives us something to watch and if nothing else we are guaranteed to have a much better backup QB that Pat Ramsey this year.

UberBroncoMan
08-16-2009, 03:18 AM
could Simms follow his dad's pathway and emerge as the starter for this team in his 6th year the way his dad did at the same time in his career?

This really confuses me.

Phil Simms was the 7th overall pick in 1979... and he STARTED right out of the gate.

http://www.nfl.com/players/philsimms/profile?id=SIM342758

He was also an INT throwing, low completion %, sack of **** of a QB his first 7 years.

Even after that he wasn't really anything "special"

78.5 lifetime QB rating.

Made it to the Pro Bowl the same amount of times as Jake Plummer (even if Jake was an alternate both (2) times).

The only reason he's anything at all is because he won two Super Bowls with a damn good team and coaching staff around him.

Oh and the later of the Super Bowls he wasn't even a starting... it was Jeff Hostetler.

Outside of his 1987-1988, 1990 and 1993 seasons he was meh.

Phil Simms is overhyped. Yes he did have a few good games, and a few good seasons, but he was nothing truly special in the world of QB's.

I'll argue though that if Phil Simms kept going like he played in his final year he could have done something nice. Elway before his final 6 years was up and down... but man did he get it on lockdown at that point.

... on the plus side, Chris Simms has a better career completion % than his dad.

Atwater His Ass
08-16-2009, 03:22 AM
Simms is unquestionably a better talent than Orton, and his arm is noticeably stronger. That was obvious in the game last night.

I strongly disagree with this statement. If this were true, roles would be reversed, and the starting job would be Simms' to lose and not Orton's. Fact is, they are both just average QB's and neither holds a firm advantage over the other.

What I saw in the game last night, was an entirely different offense in which it was a run first system that set up the pass for Simms. Orton was asked to run a pass first system and outside of most of the first drive, he imploded.

Simms took maximum advantage out of what he was asked to do, so good for him. But that really in way changes my opinion of him.

Simms and Orton are basically the same level of average QB. It will not matter which one will start on opening day or even if we ran platoon system and played both of them.

I don't see this team winning until we get a real QB in town. This will be a long rebuilding process.

Man it's really depressing talking about Simms and Orton as the starting QB's in Denver.

Atwater His Ass
08-16-2009, 03:25 AM
This really confuses me.

Phil Simms was the 7th overall pick in 1979... and he STARTED right out of the gate.

http://www.nfl.com/players/philsimms/profile?id=SIM342758

He was also an INT throwing, low completion %, sack of **** of a QB his first 7 years.

Even after that he wasn't really anything "special"

78.5 lifetime QB rating.

Made it to the Pro Bowl the same amount of times as Jake Plummer (even if Jake was an alternate both (2) times).

The only reason he's anything at all is because he won two Super Bowls with a damn good team and coaching staff around him.

Oh and the later of the Super Bowls he wasn't even a starter anymore... it was Jeff Hostetler.

Outside of his 1987-1988, 1990 and 1993 seasons he was meh.

Phil Simms is overhyped. Yes he did have a few good games, and a few good seasons, but he was nothing truly special in the world of QB's.

I'll argue though that if Phil Simms kept going like he played in his final year he could have done something nice. Elway before his final 6 years was up and down... but man did he get it on lockdown at that point.

... on the plus side, Chris Simms has a better career completion % than his dead.

Yeah.

Phil Simms was nothing more than an average QB that played his part well on really good teams. Props for him for playing his role well and walking away with championships' that's what it's all about. But he will never be in any sort of conversation about the best QB's to play in the NFL.

He's a really nothing more than a Super Bowl trivia question.

UberBroncoMan
08-16-2009, 03:29 AM
Phil Simms was nothing more than an average QB that played his part well on really good teams. Props for him for playing his role well and walking away with championships' that's what it's all about. But he will never be in any sort of conversation about the best QB's to play in the NFL.

He's a really nothing more than a Super Bowl trivia question.

Exactly :thumbsup:!

That's why I'll never get people getting all goose bumpy over Chris because of his dad. If anything you want Chris to not be his dad because that means in the grand scheme of things you'd be stuck with a **** ton of mediocre seasons.

... I wish we had a Lawrence Taylor on defense.

footstepsfrom#27
08-16-2009, 03:33 AM
This really confuses me.

Phil Simms was the 7th overall pick in 1979... and he STARTED right out of the gate.

http://www.nfl.com/players/philsimms/profile?id=SIM342758

He was also an INT throwing, low completion %, sack of **** of a QB his first 7 years.

Even after that he wasn't really anything "special"

78.5 lifetime QB rating.

Made it to the Pro Bowl the same amount of times as Jake Plummer (even if Jake was an alternate both (2) times).

The only reason he's anything at all is because he won two Super Bowls with a damn good team and coaching staff around him.

Oh and the later of the Super Bowls he wasn't even a starting... it was Jeff Hostetler.

Outside of his 1987-1988, 1990 and 1993 seasons he was meh.

Phil Simms is overhyped. Yes he did have a few good games, and a few good seasons, but he was nothing truly special in the world of QB's.

I'll argue though that if Phil Simms kept going like he played in his final year he could have done something nice. Elway before his final 6 years was up and down... but man did he get it on lockdown at that point.

... on the plus side, Chris Simms has a better career completion % than his dad.
Like I stated in the first post, Simms started initially...that's correct. But he subsequently went another 5 years doing nothing...because he basically suffered through a lot of injuries and and inconsistency. I didn't say his kid was the answer. I said he might be a better option.

I'd say that's a timely discussion wouldn't you?

extralife
08-16-2009, 03:43 AM
I like how people are calling this QB situation "interesting." That's a nice euphemism for "terrible." Watching an offensive coach with a complicated passing offense run around with a bottom five starting QB is not my idea of a good time.

UberBroncoMan
08-16-2009, 03:48 AM
Like I stated in the first post, Simms started initially...that's correct. But he subsequently went another 5 years doing nothing...because he basically suffered through a lot of injuries and and inconsistency. I didn't say his kid was the answer. I said he might be a better option.

I'd say that's a timely discussion wouldn't you?

Your thread was about going into his 6th year yada yada like dad like son. Totally different stories.

Also, I'm not sure what 5 years of "nothing" your talking about...

In 1983 he didn't do much, in 1987 he missed half the season, and in the tail end of his career 1991-1992 he didn't play much. Other than that he was either the starter for the entire season or at minimum 9-10 out of 16 games.

Anyway... Chris Simms is bad, but he might turn out to be a serviceable stopgap. No way in hell he is our future. All we can hope is that whoever our QB is, he better learn to think, look off his target, and not **** games over for us.

ZONA
08-16-2009, 04:33 AM
I wish people would quit calling Orton Mcd's guy. McD wanted Cassell and once that whole thing blew up and Jay wanted to be traded, McD was left with little choices. He first needed to get value for Jay in the form of draft picks. That was the #1 thing, then yeah, if we could have an average to good QB thrown in there that would be fine. Orton may suffice for a year or two as McD grooms both Simms and Brandstater but I still say McD is not done with drafting QB's and he will find "his" guy.

And Phil Simms is not the only QB who needed a second chance and a few years in the league before things turned around. Chris definitely has the tools to become a good QB and hey may just do that. I don't think it would be in his first year here but maybe next. I mean, how many QB's are great their first year with a new team? Not many.

footstepsfrom#27
08-16-2009, 04:48 AM
Your thread was about going into his 6th year yada yada like dad like son. Totally different stories.

Also, I'm not sure what 5 years of "nothing" your talking about...
It's different up till now but only since we know how his dad fared. The point was...it might not end totally different.

Phil Simms had very poor years in '80 and '81, missed '82 due to the strike, and was injured nearly all of '83, finally emerging as a settled starter in '84...hence my comment that most of his first 5 years were not pretty, about the length of time his kid's struggled as well (another year due to the spleen). I was merely drawing a parallel comparison, speculating on a possible similar story for Chris Simms.
Anyway... Chris Simms is bad, but he might turn out to be a serviceable stopgap. No way in hell he is our future. All we can hope is that whoever our QB is, he better learn to think, look off his target, and not **** games over for us.
Again...I'm not really saying he's our future, just that he might be a better option that we think...better than Orton anyway. Then again, he might not.

It's just a thought...

shakenbake
08-16-2009, 04:52 AM
All of that basically means that he lost out to Applewhite.

It was the next to last game of the 2001(Applewhite's senior year) season and Chris Simms had started every game that year. Even despite the four picks in the first half he wasn't pulled until he hit his hand on a defenders helmet. Mack Brown stuck by that kid a lot longer than he should have.

Hulamau
08-16-2009, 05:16 AM
I was excited when we signed Simms. I liked what I saw of him in Tampa, given... for a short period of time.

I wonder why it is that Orton passed him up in camp? I don't really buy into any conspiracy theories about Orton being part of the Cutler trade, hence HAS to be McD's starter. McDaniels would start Matt Prater at QB if he thought it would win him games.

Simms ran what looked like a much simpler version of our offense last night, even on second viewing. It'll be interesting to see if he can catch up to Orton as far as at least knowing the playbook.

I like both of these guys. Neither is Pro Bowl physical-talent, but I think both have showed flashes of being winners and good leaders.

It'll be fun to watch this play out...


I think that's the main thing. Orton was running a more complex scheme Friday, certainly more complex than I remember any of our other teams running in the first preseason game.

And this is his first shot with the whole new show. Looking again at Orton, he ran the offense well and moved the ball easily too ... outside of three bad plays ... he was actually very good all around!

I suspect he'll clean up a lot as the weeks go by. I also suspect it will be an up and down year for us in this transition season, with likely more struggles with consistency earlier than later as all of this gets ironed out and the McD era has a chance to get firmly anchored with the team.

As you and I have both said in numerous posts, the key to surviving this season without requiring electro-cardioversion Every Sunday afternoon is to realize those facts, and look for steady PROGRESS as we move through the second half of the season .. with signs of consistently tough all around play.

Like Orton said himself, McD's system is a nightmare for a QB to learn, but heaven once he's got it all in sync. A little more patience from the Nervous Nelly Squad would greatly reduce the drama-queen quotient around here and help keep our national health care costs under control.

.... And yes, Simms could be a sleeper, again once he has time to fully grasp the system and get on the same page with the whole offense. I suspect we will only see that for real, though, if Orton gets injured ... so I'm hoping we don't.

I think both these guys can play with some more work, and that isn't a bad thing at all!

Atwater His Ass
08-16-2009, 07:35 AM
obiligatory cripple fight mention

Hamrob
08-16-2009, 08:13 AM
I like Simms. I think he's got alot of talent. I'm not bigg on lefties...but I could get used to it.

As for Friday night...Simms was playing against 2nd stringers...so, it's hard to compare apples to apples.

Having said that, I think he's the best QB on our roster. What's interesting to me, is that we paid him like he's a talent...$3m/yr. That's twice as much as Orton.

One other note on Simms. I really like seeing the guy get excited to be playing. You can see he is enjoying himself.

Hamrob
08-16-2009, 08:17 AM
Having watched the game a couple of times now...I'm not as concerned about the pics as I initially was. Orton was just trying to make plays and its the first preseason game...no biggy.

What cocerns me...is his arm strength. He just does not have any zip. I watch Cassel the other night and he was zipping it around the field. Clearly he has a much bigger arm than Orton.

I really can't see Orton being succcessful throwing the ball down the field. Thinking back, when Griese started to show, he couldn't get the ball down the field 20yds...I think the team lost confidence in his ability to win. Let's hope that's not the case with Orton. It's only the first preseason game!

_Oro_
08-16-2009, 08:24 AM
We should have signed Jeff Garcia this offseason. A solid veteran QB would have been good to hold the fort for a few seasons with this offense.

He's too short for this offense.

Dr. Broncenstein
08-16-2009, 08:29 AM
I was excited when we signed Simms. I liked what I saw of him in Tampa, given... for a short period of time.

I wonder why it is that Orton passed him up in camp? I don't really buy into any conspiracy theories about Orton being part of the Cutler trade, hence HAS to be McD's starter. McDaniels would start Matt Prater at QB if he thought it would win him games.

Simms ran what looked like a much simpler version of our offense last night, even on second viewing. It'll be interesting to see if he can catch up to Orton as far as at least knowing the playbook.

I like both of these guys. Neither is Pro Bowl physical-talent, but I think both have showed flashes of being winners and good leaders.

It'll be fun to watch this play out...


I can't recall the exact press conference, but didn't McD basically say "Orton made the deal possible" or something along those lines? I don't think its much of a stretch to think Orton will be given preferential treatment in order to save face over the offseason debacle. I agree that at some point, Simms would start if it appears Orton can't get it done. But from the training camp / preseason standpoint, Orton is going to be given every oppertunity to be the starter.

Dr. Broncenstein
08-16-2009, 08:31 AM
He's too short for this offense.

Right... too productive and wins too many games as well.

Spider
08-16-2009, 08:33 AM
I strongly disagree with this statement. If this were true, roles would be reversed, and the starting job would be Simms' to lose and not Orton's. Fact is, they are both just average QB's and neither holds a firm advantage over the other.

What I saw in the game last night, was an entirely different offense in which it was a run first system that set up the pass for Simms. Orton was asked to run a pass first system and outside of most of the first drive, he imploded.

Simms took maximum advantage out of what he was asked to do, so good for him. But that really in way changes my opinion of him.

Simms and Orton are basically the same level of average QB. It will not matter which one will start on opening day or even if we ran platoon system and played both of them.

I don't see this team winning until we get a real QB in town. This will be a long rebuilding process.

Man it's really depressing talking about Simms and Orton as the starting QB's in Denver.
Not always true , some guys practice really good , others do better in game situations .... Seeing how this is both QB's first year with this new coach ...
I fell alseep during the game ( I dont want no **** , I just did 16 hours and 732 miles worth of trucking ) So I really cant comment on th 2 qb's and how they played ...

spdirty
08-16-2009, 08:53 AM
From what Ive seen, Simms needs to be the starter. But Ive only seen 1 game. I just really really really hate that lame duck that Orton calls a throw. Simms has a helluva better arm.

Gcver2ver3
08-16-2009, 08:57 AM
I was excited when we signed Simms. I liked what I saw of him in Tampa, given... for a short period of time.

I wonder why it is that Orton passed him up in camp? I don't really buy into any conspiracy theories about Orton being part of the Cutler trade, hence HAS to be McD's starter. McDaniels would start Matt Prater at QB if he thought it would win him games.

Simms ran what looked like a much simpler version of our offense last night, even on second viewing. It'll be interesting to see if he can catch up to Orton as far as at least knowing the playbook.

I like both of these guys. Neither is Pro Bowl physical-talent, but I think both have showed flashes of being winners and good leaders.

It'll be fun to watch this play out...

Simms looked good but you're right, he was running a simpler version of the offense...lots of run plays with much less spread formations...

Simms arm strength is obviously better than Orton's....

my concern with Simms is he holds the ball too long...he still takes longer through his progressions...

now one could argue Orton is going too fast through his but it does show that he knows where to go with the ball in the offense better than simms right now...

i think Orton can be really good in this offense with more reps...

footstepsfrom#27
08-16-2009, 12:07 PM
It was the next to last game of the 2001(Applewhite's senior year) season and Chris Simms had started every game that year. Even despite the four picks in the first half he wasn't pulled until he hit his hand on a defenders helmet. Mack Brown stuck by that kid a lot longer than he should have.
"That year"...Applewhite prior to that was handed the starting role in his freshman year, and he held that spot for some time before Simms took over. Look at the record books...he was hardly sitting on the bench. However you want to say it...bottom line is Simms lost favor and Applewhite emerged. My real point is that Simms has essentially been seen as an underachiever up till now based on what was predicted for hm, and his pro career is not terribly dissimilar from his dads if you look at the fact that his dad was a high first round pick who struggled just to stay in the lineup for 6 years before he seemed to settle in as a legitmate starting QB.

In any case, who cares? The thread's point is about Simms and his potential to emerge at mid-career...that's all it's about, despite the confusion in here that I've somehow suggested he's the "answer", which I've not.

footstepsfrom#27
08-16-2009, 12:12 PM
From what Ive seen, Simms needs to be the starter. But Ive only seen 1 game. I just really really really hate that lame duck that Orton calls a throw. Simms has a helluva better arm.
This concern has largely been pooh-poohed by the Orton backers, but if you recall the problems we had with Plummer, his turnovers due to bad decisions were NOT the major problem...but a close second to the larger one; namely that this offense was incapable of gaining respect through the air with Plummer unable to stretch the field. Teams went with 9 in the box to stop the running game and dared Plummer to beat them. I know what Brady did in NE...Orton is not Brady. We'll see how he does in this offense, but at least one, probably two of those picks the other night were a direct result of his arm. That last one, I could have picked it off.

Circle Orange
08-16-2009, 12:53 PM
Actually, father and son are nothing alike. Phil's hair was honey spun gold, then ash blonde, then bleached blonde, then light brown. Chris has consistently been platinum blonde. These are critical elements all fans should know.

Dr. Broncenstein
08-16-2009, 12:57 PM
Actually, father and son are nothing alike. Phil's hair was honey spun gold, then ash blonde, then bleached blonde, then light brown. Chris has consistently been platinum blonde. These are critical elements all fans should know.

fabulous

TheDave
08-16-2009, 01:12 PM
To be honest I'm not real impressed with either of them... Obviously Simms looked better than Orton. Not throwing 3 picks in 3 consecutive drives will do that.

The fact is, Orton is going to get EVERY possible chance to lose this job. No way is our coach is going to make a terrible Cutler trade look even worse by admitting 1/3 of the compensation we received should be riding the bench. Orton will have to string together several of Fridays performances before Simms gets a legitimate chance.

tsiguy96
08-16-2009, 01:14 PM
This concern has largely been pooh-poohed by the Orton backers, but if you recall the problems we had with Plummer, his turnovers due to bad decisions were NOT the major problem...but a close second to the larger one; namely that this offense was incapable of gaining respect through the air with Plummer unable to stretch the field. Teams went with 9 in the box to stop the running game and dared Plummer to beat them. I know what Brady did in NE...Orton is not Brady. We'll see how he does in this offense, but at least one, probably two of those picks the other night were a direct result of his arm. That last one, I could have picked it off.

the last one was a high floater that was on target but teh CB made a great catch. for some reason i doubt you would have picked it off.

UberBroncoMan
08-16-2009, 01:49 PM
I can't recall the exact press conference, but didn't McD basically say "Orton made the deal possible" or something along those lines? I don't think its much of a stretch to think Orton will be given preferential treatment in order to save face over the offseason debacle. I agree that at some point, Simms would start if it appears Orton can't get it done. But from the training camp / preseason standpoint, Orton is going to be given every oppertunity to be the starter.

Cutler would not be in Chicago right now if they weren't willing to give up Orton.

footstepsfrom#27
08-16-2009, 02:10 PM
the last one was a high floater that was on target but teh CB made a great catch. for some reason i doubt you would have picked it off.
A floater is a floater...easy pickins.

I have great hands. ;D

Circle Orange
08-16-2009, 03:45 PM
He's too short for this offense.

Um...ok?

Qbs throw through lanes, not seeing 'over top' their linemen. I wish I knew where the 'seeing over the line' bit got started. How can you see over linemen your height and taller on the same plane? Every time an announcer says that I want to choke him.

bronco_diesel
08-16-2009, 04:17 PM
Having seen how Phil Simms devastated the Broncos in the '87 Super Bowl, it's hard to imagine that he almost never got the chance to become a starting QB in the NFL. I can still see that in my head...the Super Bowl record for completion percentage until Brady broke it...ugh.

Ever since Chris Simms lost out to the less talented, but more productive Major Applewhite as the University of Texas quarterback, he's been dogged with the under achiever label by some fans who expected him to live up to his dad's reputation immediately. Simms was considered the top high school QB in the country when he got to Texas, but Applewhite was a virtual coach on the field, even quitting the Patriots camp in 2002 to accept a coaching gig. He's now the youngest Division I offensive coordinator in college football at age 31.

In a lot of ways, I think Simms was done a disservice by former Texas coach Mac Brown, who seemed content to recruit talent and rely on that ahead of spending time coaching players. In retrospect, Simms would probably have been better off had he attended Tennessee as he originally planned on instead of Texas.

I've always wondered if Simms would ever follow in his dad's footsteps and make it as a starter or not so I looked up a bit on Phil. It turns out the parallels are interesting. Phil Simms had initial success his rookie year, starting a few games and finishing runner up for ROY, but then went through the next 4 years plagued by mediocrity due to poor play, injuries and inconsistency. Simms, who Bill Walsh wanted over Joe Montana but lost when the Giants made him the #7 pick in the draft, did not find his groove and settle in as a solid starter until his 6th season in the NFL. He was even dumped by Bill Parcells in favor of Scott Bruner. Scott Bruner!

This is Chris Simms 6th year in the league...actually he sat out almost two seasons because of the spleen injury so he's played very little since 2005 with only 4 starts. That 2005 season was actually not bad. He started 10 games and finished with a 61% completion percentage and a respectable 81.4 QB rating. But personal problems with Jon Gruden caused the Bucs to let him go...another opportunity wasted.

Simms is unquestionably a better talent than Orton, and his arm is noticeably stronger. That was obvious in the game last night. This is my question here...could Simms follow his dad's pathway and emerge as the starter for this team in his 6th year the way his dad did at the same time in his career? It would take more poor performances by Orton, but at this point, it seems more possible than it did a couple days ago. Maybe it comes down to an issue of which one has a better grasp of the offense, which is probably where Orton shines, but at some point, might that change as Simms gets more acclimated to this system?

He has the talent. If McDaniels is the QB coach and offensive mind everyone seems to think he is, isn't it possible Simms could be coached up to the QB he was supposed to be all along?

good read. thanks.

Atwater His Ass
08-16-2009, 04:35 PM
McD looked at every offensive snap from guys like Campbell and Orton from last season. The deal happened with Chicago because all other things being equal, Orton is what sold the deal to McD.

Now you could argue that McD was forced into this by Bowlen and had to make a decision between the teams that were willing to give up 2 1st round draft picks and more to land Cutler. So in reality, Orton really may not be McD's guy, but it could be Pat forcing his hand after his play for Cassell fell through.

rastaman
08-16-2009, 05:08 PM
Simms must prove he can stay healthy. Although he performed well and threw thew great, he wasn't going up against the No. 1 Defense. Once the season starts these defenses will be playing at a much hire tempo. Point is, Simms looks a bit frail out there in terms of bulk and weight. The jury is still out.

telluride
08-16-2009, 05:14 PM
McD likely doesn't expect either Orton or Simms to be anything but a stop-gap until he can hand-pick his own QB via the draft. Either next year, or the next. Which doesn't mean that the team can't win with either Orton or Simms -- it can.

On a related front, I'll be interested in seeing what happens to Matt Leinart if he loses out as #2 to St. Pierre.

broncogary
08-16-2009, 05:20 PM
"That year"...Applewhite prior to that was handed the starting role in his freshman year, and he held that spot for some time before Simms took over. Look at the record books...he was hardly sitting on the bench. However you want to say it...bottom line is Simms lost favor and Applewhite emerged. My real point is that Simms has essentially been seen as an underachiever up till now based on what was predicted for hm, and his pro career is not terribly dissimilar from his dads if you look at the fact that his dad was a high first round pick who struggled just to stay in the lineup for 6 years before he seemed to settle in as a legitmate starting QB.

In any case, who cares? The thread's point is about Simms and his potential to emerge at mid-career...that's all it's about, despite the confusion in here that I've somehow suggested he's the "answer", which I've not.

What a bunch of hogwash. Simms was handed the job because he was promised it despite being consistently out-performed by Applewhite. Applewhite had an injury one year, but everyone down here (except revisionist history writers) knew that Applewhite over-performed and Simms under-performed. Simms is the DJ Williams of QB's.

footstepsfrom#27
08-16-2009, 05:49 PM
What a bunch of hogwash. Simms was handed the job because he was promised it despite being consistently out-performed by Applewhite. Applewhite had an injury one year, but everyone down here (except revisionist history writers) knew that Applewhite over-performed and Simms under-performed. Simms is the DJ Williams of QB's.
I never said Applewhite didn't out perform him.
I never said Siimms deserved to start.
I never said Simms wasn't handed the job.
I never said Simms didn't under perform, and in fact I stated he was seen as an under achiever.

So what's the problem again?

broncogary
08-16-2009, 05:55 PM
I never said Applewhite didn't out perform him.
I never said Siimms deserved to start.
I never said Simms wasn't handed the job.
I never said Simms didn't under perform, and in fact I stated he was seen as an under achiever.

So what's the problem again?

You twisted the facts on Phil, and then twisted them on Chris, and made a story about it. I realize the story is your baby, and you write well, but get the facts straight.

It reminds me of a former mod on this board who wrote an article on the "Battle of the Bays." He concluded that Green Bay would win, because Favre always won when the temperature was less than 40 degrees.

Unfortunately, the game was played in Tampa.