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Popps
08-15-2009, 07:05 PM
What did you notice?

Anyone watched the game all the way through again, as painful as some of it may have been? It's always interesting to take the second look, rewind... focus on the lines, etc.

What did you see on your second look....?

R8R H8R
08-15-2009, 07:11 PM
What did you notice?

Anyone watched the game all the way through again, as painful as some of it may have been? It's always interesting to take the second look, rewind... focus on the lines, etc.

What did you see on your second look....?

Popps, I haven't had a chance yet to re-watch it. Will probably do so later tonight.

But I'd like to asked you your own question. What did you see?

Popps
08-15-2009, 07:15 PM
A few things that struck me...

-Champ Bailey
He looked a little slow, and not just on the play where he was beat. Still looks like he's working his way back into game shape.

Kenny Peterson
I continue to like his play. Nothing spectacular, but very solid. He isn't pushed around easily, contains the edge well and gets some push on the passer when he needs to. Very happy he's going to be a starter or in the rotation.

DJ Williams
I'm sorry, he's just a bad middle linebacker. He simply doesn't have the instincts. This isn't a feeling from just watching last night.... this goes back a ways for me. Every time I see him in the middle, the guy is just running aimlessly at the pile, and routinely picks the wrong gap. Watch Coffee's long run in the first quarter. Fields takes on his blocker and almost stops the play but funnels it to DJ for what should be an easy tackle. DJ is for some reason running flailing over to the left side of the screen chasing some blocker. The guy is a real liability in the middle. I know it's early, but I think this will be a real problem for us.

Kenny McKinley
Looks great, and was even open on the INT by Orton. (Under-thrown.)

Brandon Lloyd
Looked solid, tough to cover and I still predict he works his way into a lot of action this year.

Ron Fields
Looked very strong. He's going to give people trouble. Not dominant, but he'll definitely hold his own at NT. Didn't see him being double-teamed much, but we'll see how things progress.

Popps
08-15-2009, 07:17 PM
Orton
Yes, he obviously had problems. But, the first drive was impressive until the INT in the endzone. It really looked to me like he was aiming the ball, not just throwing it. He looked tentative. He's no Elway, but he's got better arm strength than he was showing last night, imo. I think he needs to come out and rip it next week. He really looked tentative, that's the only word I can think of. On 2 of the 3 picks, it probably wasn't a terrible idea.. he just needed to rip it. He's trying to aim the ball, imo.

Popps
08-15-2009, 07:20 PM
Secondary
I don't know exactly what Nolan's cover scheme is, but it looked like a zone, at times. There were a few times where the safeties seemed like they were positioned further back than they needed to be. Most of the big plays seemed to be in the middle of the field, in the 15 yard range.

Popps
08-15-2009, 07:20 PM
Still watching, but will try to take a few more mental notes as I look again....

prunch
08-15-2009, 07:24 PM
Defensively it looks like we will be strong at the line and are not allowing anyone to get behind us deep for the home run play. I think TEs will slaughter us in the middle range though.

Orange_Beard
08-15-2009, 07:30 PM
Orton
Yes, he obviously had problems. But, the first drive was impressive until the INT in the endzone. It really looked to me like he was aiming the ball, not just throwing it. He looked tentative. He's no Elway, but he's got better arm strength than he was showing last night, imo. I think he needs to come out and rip it next week. He really looked tentative, that's the only word I can think of. On 2 of the 3 picks, it probably wasn't a terrible idea.. he just needed to rip it. He's trying to aim the ball, imo.

After a quick re-watch, Orton looked a lot like Griese (after the shoulder injury). After the pick in the end zone, he seemed to lose all confidence.

Jordan looked weak to me. Does not hit the hole with speed or power. Runs like he is looking for a place to go down. Hills should really get all of his touches.

R8R H8R
08-15-2009, 07:32 PM
A few things that struck me...

-Champ Bailey
He looked a little slow, and not just on the play where he was beat. Still looks like he's working his way back into game shape.

I hope that is all it is.

DJ Williams
I'm sorry, he's just a bad middle linebacker. He simply doesn't have the instincts. This isn't a feeling from just watching last night.... this goes back a ways for me. Every time I see him in the middle, the guy is just running aimlessly at the pile, and routinely picks the wrong gap. Watch Coffee's long run in the first quarter. Fields takes on his blocker and almost stops the play but funnels it to DJ for what should be an easy tackle. DJ is for some reason running flailing over to the left side of the screen chasing some blocker. The guy is a real liability in the middle. I know it's early, but I think this will be a real problem for us.

And no other spot for him in the 3-4, huh? Is the Will in a 4-3 his only best fit?

Kenny McKinley
Looks great, and was even open on the INT by Orton. (Under-thrown.)


Yea, may be a sleeper.

Ron Fields
Looked very strong. He's going to give people trouble. Not dominant, but he'll definitely hold his own at NT. Didn't see him being double-teamed much, but we'll see how things progress.

I'm no expert by any means, but my understanding is the NT must command a double team for the 3-4 to very real effective. Although I admit I may be wrong.

Thanks Popps.

TheDave
08-15-2009, 07:36 PM
After watching it again... Hmmmmm

Offense-

1. Orton - What happened? He looked wonderful for the 1st 7-10 passes. Then once he threw that 1st pick he absolutely imploded. Hopefully this isn't how he normally plays. If so, it's time for the Simms era to start.

2. Offensive line - Just as impressed with their pass protection as I was all last year. Probably one of if not the best pass blocking Olines in the league. On the other hand their run blocking is kind of a mixed bag. They are very effective when using the ZBS. The power formations and man on man are still a work in progress.

3. WR's - we have a wealth of talent at this position and should be able to create an array of mis-matches and put a lot of pressure on opposing D's (assuming our QB play improves significantly)

4. RB's - Thank god knowshon is OK. The combination of him and hillis looks to be as potent as we all hoped.

Defense-

1. DLine - I'm not nearly as impressed as some people were. I felt they gave up ground and allowed too many Olineman to get to the 2nd level. I'm afraid we have a long ways to go here and will remain or achillies heal this year.

2. LB's - Still a work in progress. We have some talent and OLB might prove to be a natural fit for Doom. The increase in average size of this unit should help us as the year progresses. Still wasn't overly impressed with any individual and unfortunately Ayers looks absolutely lost at this point.

3. Secondary - Better than last season, but unless we get more pressure they are going to suffer the same fate as last season. Will be interesting to see what happens with Dawkins in the mix.

Special Teams

1. So far so good... but I honestly have no idea if that was a product of SF's poor special teams play or have we really improved that much.


Overall

The defensive move to the 3-4 is the right thing to do. But I'm afraid that our Dline is still a train wreck and won't do us any favors this year. On the other side of the ball our offense can be as good as it wants to be. That is one of the main reasons that I am so frustrated by what I have seen out of Orton. He better pick it up in a hurry or we will need to look for other options so as to not waste our strongest unit.

theAPAOps5
08-15-2009, 07:37 PM
Ron Fields may have looked okay but I really think Chris Baker has tons of potential.

azbroncfan
08-15-2009, 07:39 PM
Ron Fields may have looked okay but I really think Chris Baker has tons of potential.

I was thinking the same thing watching the game last night. Baker stood out to me a few times.

watermock
08-15-2009, 07:39 PM
Jordan sucks, so does Buck.

Where was Sheff?

Baker looks like a keeper by default.

Why were we pounding Moreno on 5 dAYS?

oUR ONLY BACKS ARE hILLIS AND AN INJURED mORENO,.

theAPAOps5
08-15-2009, 07:40 PM
I was thinking the same thing watching the game last night. Baker stood out to me a few times.

Same here and I keep having to tell myself it was against the second string but it does provide a glimmer of hope.

watermock
08-15-2009, 07:41 PM
O-line was fine, why draft 2?

theAPAOps5
08-15-2009, 07:43 PM
O-line was fine, why draft 2?

Because if any one of the starters goes down our great OL could go to crap. So you have to plan for the future and OL depth is one of the needs that needed to be addressed. Shanny would have done the same thing.

R8R H8R
08-15-2009, 07:58 PM
2. Offensive line - Just as impressed with their pass protection as I was all last year. Probably one of if not the best pass blocking Olines in the league. On the other hand their run blocking is kind of a mixed bag. They are very effective when using the ZBS. The power formations and man on man are still a work in progress.

Other than the obvious that the power blocking is new to them, do you think that it may also be a problem that other than Clady, we are still considered a small OL, especially in the interior? If so, that may not get fixed all that soon.

TheDave
08-15-2009, 08:01 PM
Other than the obvious that the power blocking is new to them, do you think that it may also be a problem that other than Clady, we are still considered a small OL, especially in the interior? If so, that may not get fixed all that soon.

The problem I noticed was that they did a poor job of holding their blocks. They were firing out on their man and generally were not giving up ground. Problem seemed that they would get on their man and be disengaged a moment later.

I think it is something they can improve on.

SoCalBronco
08-15-2009, 08:08 PM
O-line was fine, why draft 2?

Hamilton might not be the best fit going forward in the new hybrid running scheme. Weigmann is also up there in age. Schlueter actually has a strong resemblance to Hamilton...he's undersized, very smart and possesses great technical prowess coming from a history of well coached OL at Iowa.

Olsen is cut a little bit more from the Kuper mold. He's beefier and a little meaner, but can still do the things that are athletically required. The staff should be given credit for his fast development. He was a quick learner at camp and routinely was given time with the 1's. I noticed he was also one of the first backups in the game at the OL position, yesterday.

The staff saw an OL that was very strong at the respective bookends, although Harris was more of a pure system fit for the previous coaching staff than an all-around monster like Clady is. Nonetheless, they justifiably felt very comfortable going forward with him..even if he's just a hair out of place in line scheme that is more traditional. They obviously saw Kuper as the stud that he is, but noticed the age problem at C and LG that they wanted to address. It is early, but Olsen looks like he will transition quite well into what they like to do. The point was raised at camp that Schlueter might fall prey to the Greg Eslinger syndrome, but he has awhile to pack on some weight. I suspect he'll need another 20 pounds from his current 283 to be fully functional in this offense. We will see whether he can gain it without affecting his game negatively. There were several reports over the summer that were very complementary of Schlueter's game, however. Perhaps with McDaniels increased emphasis on nutrition, he'll fair better than Eslinger did in the weight and muscle mass gain area.

BMarsh615
08-15-2009, 08:12 PM
Where was Tim Crowder?

R8R H8R
08-15-2009, 08:13 PM
The problem I noticed was that they did a poor job of holding their blocks. They were firing out on their man and generally were not giving up ground. Problem seemed that they would get on their man and be disengaged a moment later.

I think it is something they can improve on.

Well if it is technique, then you're right it can fixed.

Broncojef
08-15-2009, 08:29 PM
Ron Fields may have looked okay but I really think Chris Baker has tons of potential.

Fields seemed like he was always out of position. Two or three times the play came right to him and he ran elsewhere. Isn't his job in the 3-4 just to stuff the middle? Our D would have looked real good had he or some fat guy been right in the middle most of the evening.

Popps
08-15-2009, 08:35 PM
I hope that is all it is.



And no other spot for him in the 3-4, huh? Is the Will in a 4-3 his only best fit?
.

I don't know, but a lot of people here were speculating that when Williams was out, the defense improved last year, and I can't say I disagree. The guy just doesn't seem to know where to be. I understand this is yet another new system to him, but like Dr. Bronc pointed out, if he's a 1st round talent, or even just a talent... he's got to adapt more quickly.

I honestly believe Larsen would be an improvement over him, almost immediately.

It's a real problem. We have a lot of money wrapped up in this guy and the MLB spots are very important.

Popps
08-15-2009, 08:36 PM
Where was Tim Crowder?

Great question. After camp, I expected to see a lot of him. But, saw little of him or Reid. I did notice Reid later on a few series.

Just noticed that Ayers played some early in the game, and then again very late, unless I have my numbers wrong.

Popps
08-15-2009, 08:37 PM
Agree with SoCal about Olsen. He looks very natural out there.

Florida_Bronco
08-15-2009, 08:39 PM
DJ WilliamsI'm sorry, he's just a bad middle linebacker. He simply doesn't have the instincts. This isn't a feeling from just watching last night.... this goes back a ways for me. Every time I see him in the middle, the guy is just running aimlessly at the pile, and routinely picks the wrong gap. Watch Coffee's long run in the first quarter. Fields takes on his blocker and almost stops the play but funnels it to DJ for what should be an easy tackle. DJ is for some reason running flailing over to the left side of the screen chasing some blocker. The guy is a real liability in the middle. I know it's early, but I think this will be a real problem for us.

He had a tough time adjusting to the MLB in Bates' scheme too, but by the end of 07 he was putting in some good games. With Nolan (a LB guru) and Martindale working on him, I'm sure he'll make good progress.

lex
08-15-2009, 08:40 PM
Hamilton might not be the best fit going forward in the new hybrid running scheme. Weigmann is also up there in age. Schlueter actually has a strong resemblance to Hamilton...he's undersized, very smart and possesses great technical prowess coming from a history of well coached OL at Iowa.

Olsen is cut a little bit more from the Kuper mold. He's beefier and a little meaner, but can still do the things that are athletically required. The staff should be given credit for his fast development. He was a quick learner at camp and routinely was given time with the 1's. I noticed he was also one of the first backups in the game at the OL position, yesterday.

The staff saw an OL that was very strong at the respective bookends, although Harris was more of a pure system fit for the previous coaching staff than an all-around monster like Clady is. Nonetheless, they justifiably felt very comfortable going forward with him..even if he's just a hair out of place in line scheme that is more traditional. They obviously saw Kuper as the stud that he is, but noticed the age problem at C and LG that they wanted to address. It is early, but Olsen looks like he will transition quite well into what they like to do. The point was raised at camp that Schlueter might fall prey to the Greg Eslinger syndrome, but he has awhile to pack on some weight. I suspect he'll need another 20 pounds from his current 283 to be fully functional in this offense. We will see whether he can gain it without affecting his game negatively. There were several reports over the summer that were very complementary of Schlueter's game, however. Perhaps with McDaniels increased emphasis on nutrition, he'll fair better than Eslinger did in the weight and muscle mass gain area.

Schlueter went to TCU and Olsen went to Iowa.

Popps
08-15-2009, 08:50 PM
He had a tough time adjusting to the MLB in Bates' scheme too, but by the end of 07 he was putting in some good games. With Nolan (a LB guru) and Martindale working on him, I'm sure he'll make good progress.

I hope you're right, man. He just looks so awful every time I key in and actually watch him play. On the outside, he got to just use his speed and chase. But, when he's got to diagnose, he's really, really bad. Hopefully we can figure something out for this.

_Oro_
08-15-2009, 08:52 PM
I think woodyard can replace dj without a hitch.

SoCalBronco
08-15-2009, 08:57 PM
Schlueter went to TCU and Olsen went to Iowa.

Oops....I got them mixed up. My bad.

Florida_Bronco
08-15-2009, 09:23 PM
I hope you're right, man. He just looks so awful every time I key in and actually watch him play. On the outside, he got to just use his speed and chase. But, when he's got to diagnose, he's really, really bad. Hopefully we can figure something out for this.

He'll be fine. Nolan and Martindale won't accept subpar play from him.

Popps
08-15-2009, 09:23 PM
I think woodyard can replace dj without a hitch.

Our defense showed immediate improvement last year when Williams/Webster were replaced with Woodyard/Larsen and when they switched back, the defense looked horrible.

Could have been a coincidence, but I'm not so sure.

Woodyard is too small to play ILB in this system on a regular basis.

Florida_Bronco
08-15-2009, 09:31 PM
Our defense showed immediate improvement last year when Williams/Webster were replaced with Woodyard/Larsen and when they switched back, the defense looked horrible.

Could have been a coincidence, but I'm not so sure.

Woodyard is too small to play ILB in this system on a regular basis.

Larsen should have stayed in over Webster. Williams wasn't healthy enough to be on the field when they brought him back and it showed.

Arkansas Bronco
08-15-2009, 09:46 PM
Same as the first time confusing and boring. Helps me fall asleep better. Im stickin with sunday ticket, either we improve or i get better naps ++ no matter what i win.

Dr. Broncenstein
08-15-2009, 10:22 PM
Our defense showed immediate improvement last year when Williams/Webster were replaced with Woodyard/Larsen and when they switched back, the defense looked horrible.

Could have been a coincidence, but I'm not so sure.

Woodyard is too small to play ILB in this system on a regular basis.

Woodyard has always been too small... too productive as well.

Los Broncos
08-15-2009, 10:23 PM
I want a second look at watching the defensive line and LB's.

KipCorrington25
08-15-2009, 10:31 PM
Bad... 3 wins, maybe 4 if the other team pulls a CutLer.

Broncoman13
08-15-2009, 10:34 PM
What did you notice?

Anyone watched the game all the way through again, as painful as some of it may have been? It's always interesting to take the second look, rewind... focus on the lines, etc.

What did you see on your second look....?


Same thing I saw on the first look. Mario Haggan belongs. Played a very good game and looked good in coverage. DJ trying to hang with Vernon Davis still isn't a fair matchup. Davis is a beast, consistency is the only thing holding him back. Moreno showed excellent vision on his first run. Most back don't see that cut back lane (small one at that), he darted through that hole and had a nice 8 or 9 yard gain. Kenny McKinley is a gamer. He missed a ball on 3rd down and he was probably madder than anybody else could have possibly been. He will improve.

Swedish Extrovert
08-15-2009, 10:36 PM
A few things that struck me...

-Champ Bailey
He looked a little slow, and not just on the play where he was beat. Still looks like he's working his way back into game shape.

Kenny Peterson
I continue to like his play. Nothing spectacular, but very solid. He isn't pushed around easily, contains the edge well and gets some push on the passer when he needs to. Very happy he's going to be a starter or in the rotation.

DJ Williams
I'm sorry, he's just a bad middle linebacker. He simply doesn't have the instincts. This isn't a feeling from just watching last night.... this goes back a ways for me. Every time I see him in the middle, the guy is just running aimlessly at the pile, and routinely picks the wrong gap. Watch Coffee's long run in the first quarter. Fields takes on his blocker and almost stops the play but funnels it to DJ for what should be an easy tackle. DJ is for some reason running flailing over to the left side of the screen chasing some blocker. The guy is a real liability in the middle. I know it's early, but I think this will be a real problem for us.

Kenny McKinley
Looks great, and was even open on the INT by Orton. (Under-thrown.)

Brandon Lloyd
Looked solid, tough to cover and I still predict he works his way into a lot of action this year.

Ron Fields
Looked very strong. He's going to give people trouble. Not dominant, but he'll definitely hold his own at NT. Didn't see him being double-teamed much, but we'll see how things progress.

I agree on DJ. He needs to play the outside.

Popps
08-15-2009, 10:37 PM
Woodyard has always been too small... too productive as well.

Agree. I'd rather have a smallish guy who at least knows where to go.

What good does Williams extra 35 lbs do him if he can't figure out where to be?

Hulamau
08-15-2009, 10:38 PM
Orton
Yes, he obviously had problems. But, the first drive was impressive until the INT in the endzone. It really looked to me like he was aiming the ball, not just throwing it. He looked tentative. He's no Elway, but he's got better arm strength than he was showing last night, imo. I think he needs to come out and rip it next week. He really looked tentative, that's the only word I can think of. On 2 of the 3 picks, it probably wasn't a terrible idea.. he just needed to rip it. He's trying to aim the ball, imo.

Yep, and you can see he tightened up a bit after that first pick in the end-zone, that's where that aiming the ball comes from. Predictably leading to the other two INTs. Can imagine he might be trying a little too hard at the moment in his first game in the new system, new team, the pressure to prove himself here etc, and they will get that loosened up soon I suspect.

Nothing like having a FUBAR game right from the start to break the jitters and loosen things up. Orton doesn't have a history of losing many games, he just needs abit more time and live bullets to get in gear ... he'll be fine.

Actually he did good in the other areas, commanded the huddle and the line of scrimmage well, ran a beautiful long first drive.

And as for Boob ... once a jackass moron always a jackass moron. :flower:

PRBronco
08-15-2009, 10:39 PM
To the folks who can rewatch it:

How exactly did Knowshon hurt himself? I didn't see it when it happened. Was he fallen on? Took an awkward step?
Thanks

lex
08-15-2009, 10:50 PM
Same thing I saw on the first look. Mario Haggan belongs. Played a very good game and looked good in coverage. DJ trying to hang with Vernon Davis still isn't a fair matchup. Davis is a beast, consistency is the only thing holding him back. Moreno showed excellent vision on his first run. Most back don't see that cut back lane (small one at that), he darted through that hole and had a nice 8 or 9 yard gain. Kenny McKinley is a gamer. He missed a ball on 3rd down and he was probably madder than anybody else could have possibly been. He will improve.

On one of Davis' receptions, Williams misplayed it looked like he vacated what should have been his area. And if it was his man, he misplayed that as well. Basically, he overreacted to the play and ended up in the same spot as Aundra Davis, giving Vernon Davis more room to run.

I noticed two or three other times when Williams has a false step.

watermock
08-15-2009, 10:50 PM
Other than the obvious that the power blocking is new to them, do you think that it may also be a problem that other than Clady, we are still considered a small OL, especially in the interior? If so, that may not get fixed all that soon.


Both our OL picks are small.

sides the fact that 6 of 9 picks were offensive and we gave up a probable top 10 pick in '10.

lex
08-15-2009, 10:55 PM
Fields did a really solid job. He actually provided the pressure that led to McBeans sack. He made a lot of tackles including some along the sidelines. It seemed like he had more tackes than our ILBs.

Chris Baker was also very prominent.

I actually thought Thomas played well.

We blitzed an awful lot. I think that is what led to their TD to the fullback. I think they blitzed the same way on the play before and Denver was caught.

I still feel like Larsen and Woodyard have the best feel for whats going on at ILB. They just seem to flow to the ball better and dont chickenfight with blockers as much...at least it doesnt seem that way.

Broncoman13
08-15-2009, 11:03 PM
Fields did a really solid job. He actually provided the pressure that led to McBeans sack. He made a lot of tackles including some along the sidelines. It seemed like he had more tackes than our ILBs.

Chris Baker was also very prominent.

I actually thought Thomas played well.

We blitzed an awful lot. I think that is what led to their TD to the fullback. I think they blitzed the same way on the play before and Denver was caught.

I still feel like Larsen and Woodyard have the best feel for whats going on at ILB. They just seem to flow to the ball better and dont chickenfight with blockers as much...at least it doesnt seem that way.


I think it was McBean's sack, but watch Mario Haggans on that play. If it's the play I'm thinking of, watch the bottom of the screen. 57's coverage on that play was picture perfect and went a long way toward my understand of his placement on the first team... IMO, he earned another start.

Broncoman13
08-15-2009, 11:04 PM
On one of Davis' receptions, Williams misplayed it looked like he vacated what should have been his area. And if it was his man, he misplayed that as well. Basically, he overreacted to the play and ended up in the same spot as Aundra Davis, giving Vernon Davis more room to run.

I noticed two or three other times when Williams has a false step.

I don't doubt it... DJ has always lacked good instincts. His physical ability makes up for a lot of it, but not in the middle.

Loved the way Spencer Larsen stepped in there and made the play late in the game.

Popps
08-15-2009, 11:45 PM
Fields did a really solid job. He actually provided the pressure that led to McBeans sack.

Agree, and I wasn't all that impressed with McBean, otherwise. Given, it's only one small window of action I've seen. I'm really hoping Thomas steps it up.

Fields looked damned good, imo. He looks tough to handle.

Popps
08-15-2009, 11:47 PM
I don't doubt it... DJ has always lacked good instincts. His physical ability makes up for a lot of it, but not in the middle.

Loved the way Spencer Larsen stepped in there and made the play late in the game.

That's the thing. Williams is great if you just point him in a direction and say "go." But, when you ask him to use football smarts, it just never works out. You've got to be born with the instincts to play in the middle, imo... and DJ just doesn't have them.

I'm actually very concerned, because he's a captain and makes a lot of money.
Are they going to be able to sit this guy down without a big stink?

listopencil
08-16-2009, 12:23 AM
Defense-

Dumerville looked great. He was really reading and reacting well

Our D-Line is better...but that's not really saying much unforunately.

Our LB's can't cover. They had nice flow on run plays though.

The Secondary looked horrible all around. Just crap.

Offense-
Hillis is the man. Give him the ****ing ball, it's not even close. Moreno looked pretty darn good but we are a different team with Hillis on the field.

I like our WR's even w/o Marshall

Moreno has a really nice set of skills. Good vision, good body control, runs tough. He's very fluid.

Orton looked pretty good right up until he fell apart and crapped himself repeatedly.

Good pass pro from the O-Line again. Run blocking was decent.

ST- Better coverage than last year. I was mildly encouraged.

lex
08-16-2009, 07:57 AM
That's the thing. Williams is great if you just point him in a direction and say "go." But, when you ask him to use football smarts, it just never works out. You've got to be born with the instincts to play in the middle, imo... and DJ just doesn't have them.

I'm actually very concerned, because he's a captain and makes a lot of money.
Are they going to be able to sit this guy down without a big stink?

FWIW, I share the same concerns about Williams. His greatest attribute doesnt really seem to have as much impact in a 3-4.

The only time he has played inside, it didnt go well. Perhaps it speaks to the lack of instincts you mentioned. I have a lot of respect for the guy in terms of his willingness to do what the team asked him, even if it wasnt his strength, but if Im going to be honest abouth this current situation, its hard to see him as a good fit. Here are some of the problems I see with Williams at the 3-4.

* He hasnt really demonstrated the ability to play inside. In fact, its been more the case that he struggles with it.

* One of the benefits of a 3-4 is blitz flexibility. That could mean the OLBs and often does, but it also doesnt preclude using an ILB to rush. DJ has also had problems blitzing and really seems to spend too much time engaged with blockers.

* One of his better attributes (his athleticism for his size) is minimized by virtue of there being 4 LBs and not 3. There isnt as great of a reliance on covering space, which is irrelevant if youre going to be out of position anyway. And while he may be fast/athletic for his size, he seems to struggle in zones and often has failed to get his hand on a pass or come up with easy interceptions when they were there to be had.


I hope he steps up but until he does, I share concerns as well. I also see his being a starter as a function of him having a big contract, which ties back to Bowlens greater assertion towards pinching pennies. I wonder if his status on the depth chart is a function of wanting to get value for the money Pat is spending.

I have similar concerns that this is why Jordan has remained in the fold at RB. Same goes for Hillis losing carries to Buckhalter.

I would like to believe the new regime is willing to play the best players regardless of contract but that remains to be seen and I have my doubts.

lex
08-16-2009, 08:09 AM
One thing that I havent seen stressed yet, really, is Nolans commitment to being aggressive. When Nolan was interviewed at camp, he would only say that when he watched Denver's defense he saw a team that was struggling, which was being nice. It seems like a commitment to being aggressive might be an indictment of a flawed scheme from a year ago. Remember the rationale for the 10 yard cushions, which undermined a pass rush? Granted, there has been an upgrade at safety but, still, its an affirmation of how passive the defense was last year.

We were caught a couple of times blitzing. I think their second TD came by sending the fullback out to the flat that was vacated by a LB that we were blitzing a lot. I think we blitzed a lot and that some of it might be to see what these guys can do in one on one blitzing.

I saw Williams and Ayers both pull up on hitting the QB when it seemed like they could have unloaded on him when throwing. I was a little disappointed in this. Perhaps, thats protocol for the preseason?

_Oro_
08-16-2009, 08:10 AM
I think Williams makes a good example of why a premium is being placed on guys that have multiple skill sets. If he had played his whole career on the weakside in a 43 he'd be great. But football is a random game in the sense of injuries and sometimes you need a guy to switch positions. Having as many of those guys around as possible is a good thing so its nice to see our new regime sticking to those guns.

OT Did anyone hear the announcer during the game call it the "First play of the Orton regime" Lol

lex
08-16-2009, 08:22 AM
I think Williams makes a good example of why a premium is being placed on guys that have multiple skill sets. If he had played his whole career on the weakside in a 43 he'd be great. But football is a random game in the sense of injuries and sometimes you need a guy to switch positions. Having as many of those guys around as possible is a good thing so its nice to see our new regime sticking to those guns.

OT Did anyone hear the announcer during the game call it the "First play of the Orton regime" Lol

Any time that Williams has played anything but a weakside LB in a 4-3, he has struggled. Im not sure what you mean by multiple skill sets. He hasnt been the best blitzer. He hasnt been great at shedding blocks and filling. He hasnt got his hands on a lot of passes and when he has, he has had his share of drops. He has seemed to do best with minimal responsibilities or encumbrances.

_Oro_
08-16-2009, 08:46 AM
Any time that Williams has played anything but a weakside LB in a 4-3, he has struggled. Im not sure what you mean by multiple skill sets. He hasnt been the best blitzer. He hasnt been great at shedding blocks and filling. He hasnt got his hands on a lot of passes and when he has, he has had his share of drops. He has seemed to do best with minimal responsibilities or encumbrances.

I just meant guys that are versatile (couldn't think of the word). And DJ is not one of those. So it seems hes bound to fail here and eat our cap up. And it sucks because he is such a physical specimen he should be out there dominating games.

azbroncfan
08-16-2009, 09:03 AM
Great question. After camp, I expected to see a lot of him. But, saw little of him or Reid. I did notice Reid later on a few series.

Just noticed that Ayers played some early in the game, and then again very late, unless I have my numbers wrong.

This shows why coaches are professionals and us fans are monday morning qb's and not too great at judging performance. I thought Crowder was a sure fire starter with the camp reports. Before the season I was calling Moss and Crowder bums that wouldn't make the roster and I thought Crowder was playing well but judging by the playing time the coaches must disagree.

USMCBladerunner
08-16-2009, 09:19 AM
I was surprised when, as a whole, I thought the DL played by far the best of the defensive units. They have the simplest assignement, so that may account for it, but I thought they did a good job.

I was impressed with the WR play. Royal can get ridiculously open at times. And McKinley and Lloyd looked good as well. We seemed intent on going to Stokley on 3rd down and the Niners were all over that, so we need to mix that up.

I thought the RBs all looked pretty good, except for Jordan. He striaght up pissed me off. That guy would slow down before any anticipated contact. He's 230+ and looked actually afraid of contact. He and Walker were polar opposites in that regard. Walker ran with some purpose and abandon that I liked. Moreno has a natural HB ability, where he made some really nice RB plays without putting a whole lot of special effort into it. I sure hope he gets healthy, because he looks the business.

I really liked what I saw out of Alphonso Smith. He really does understand the game.

Special teams looked better than in the past. I was pretty pleased with what I saw.

All in all, I was rather pleased. I wasn't happy with Orton's little meltdown, of course, (or that bizarre Time Out) and the 2nd/3rd unit's run defense was really poor (though it looks like Coffee will be a nice pick for SF). I was much more satisfied with this game than I thought I'd be.

I noticed we havn't brought out the screen play, though that may have been because SF can't rush the passer for crap, so there's no need for that counter move.

cutthemdown
08-16-2009, 09:22 AM
Secondary
I don't know exactly what Nolan's cover scheme is, but it looked like a zone, at times. There were a few times where the safeties seemed like they were positioned further back than they needed to be. Most of the big plays seemed to be in the middle of the field, in the 15 yard range.

for sure Nolan uses a lot of zones.

Denver724
08-16-2009, 09:25 AM
Hamilton might not be the best fit going forward in the new hybrid running scheme. Weigmann is also up there in age. Schlueter actually has a strong resemblance to Hamilton...he's undersized, very smart and possesses great technical prowess coming from a history of well coached OL at Iowa.

Olsen is cut a little bit more from the Kuper mold. He's beefier and a little meaner, but can still do the things that are athletically required. The staff should be given credit for his fast development. He was a quick learner at camp and routinely was given time with the 1's. I noticed he was also one of the first backups in the game at the OL position, yesterday.

The staff saw an OL that was very strong at the respective bookends, although Harris was more of a pure system fit for the previous coaching staff than an all-around monster like Clady is. Nonetheless, they justifiably felt very comfortable going forward with him..even if he's just a hair out of place in line scheme that is more traditional. They obviously saw Kuper as the stud that he is, but noticed the age problem at C and LG that they wanted to address. It is early, but Olsen looks like he will transition quite well into what they like to do. The point was raised at camp that Schlueter might fall prey to the Greg Eslinger syndrome, but he has awhile to pack on some weight. I suspect he'll need another 20 pounds from his current 283 to be fully functional in this offense. We will see whether he can gain it without affecting his game negatively. There were several reports over the summer that were very complementary of Schlueter's game, however. Perhaps with McDaniels increased emphasis on nutrition, he'll fair better than Eslinger did in the weight and muscle mass gain area.

I think we will sign Kuper to an extension before anyone else (Marsh, Doom, etc.). Olsen will replace Hamilton next year.

azbroncfan
08-16-2009, 09:33 AM
I think we will sign Kuper to an extension before anyone else (Marsh, Doom, etc.). Olsen will replace Hamilton next year.

Wasn't Kuper already extended?

_Oro_
08-16-2009, 09:35 AM
Another great play on Friday. Remember when the screen was on and Doom pulled up right away. On that play Fields disengages from the Center beautifully and runs across the field to make the tackle for no or little gain. Seriously amazing play for a NT.

cutthemdown
08-16-2009, 09:39 AM
Hamilton and Wiegman need to be upgraded before the Broncos will have a really good power running game. They just don't get much push. Clady IMO still needs to get stronger at point of attack on running plays. He should be mauling players with his bulk and size. Kuper IMO is the best run blocker. Harris, needs to get meaner.

cutthemdown
08-16-2009, 09:40 AM
having said that though Hamilton is a technician and against some bigger players he does move them around, just not push them. He is also a master at pass blocking. Still though I would like to see Broncos end up with another bigger player at guard and center.

Atlas
08-16-2009, 09:46 AM
Defense-

1. DLine - I'm not nearly as impressed as some people were. I felt they gave up ground and allowed too many Olineman to get to the 2nd level. I'm afraid we have a long ways to go here and will remain or achillies heal this year.

2. LB's - Still a work in progress. We have some talent and OLB might prove to be a natural fit for Doom. The increase in average size of this unit should help us as the year progresses. Still wasn't overly impressed with any individual and unfortunately Ayers looks absolutely lost at this point.

3. Secondary - Better than last season, but unless we get more pressure they are going to suffer the same fate as last season. Will be interesting to see what happens with Dawkins in the mix.

Overall

The defensive move to the 3-4 is the right thing to do. But I'm afraid that our Dline is still a train wreck and won't do us any favors this year. On the other side of the ball our offense can be as good as it wants to be. That is one of the main reasons that I am so frustrated by what I have seen out of Orton. He better pick it up in a hurry or we will need to look for other options so as to not waste our strongest unit.

I didn't watch the game, but I see that SF top two rushers had 24 carries for 138 yards. That is very worrisome.

Denver724
08-16-2009, 10:00 AM
Wasn't Kuper already extended?

I don't think so. He is a FA this year (unless it is an uncapped year and I think everyone from this draft class are put into the non-FA category).

phibacka31
08-16-2009, 10:00 AM
I've just got to say Brandon lloyd had some damn nice catches! No joke it was like he had glue on his hands... I'll be very interested to see how he plays the rest of the way out. I've always liked what i've seen from him just too inconsistent. Needs to be a part of this offense!:thumbs:

jutang
08-16-2009, 10:19 AM
I agree with the previous comments regarding DJ. On the draw plays prior to the half, DJ just made the wrong reads covering the gaps and was never engaged with a blocker.

Special Teams actually looks decent! Great coverage on the returns, Kern looks like he'll be with team for awhile. The Broncos have some excellent options for return man.

Orten's ball velocity really looks weak. Even when the offense was moving smoothly, dinking and dunking in a spread offense seems counter intuitive.

Popps
08-16-2009, 10:25 AM
for sure Nolan uses a lot of zones.

Yea, I just didn't know what to expect from his D, but it sure looked like we were in zone coverage a few times. I'm still trying to learn exactly what it is we do on defense, now. Looking forward to next week to be able to break another game down with more starters playing longer.

Oh, another thing I noticed along those lines...

Assignments
There is still definitely confusion out there on defense. Not surprising, and really... we played pretty cohesively for the first time running the system. But, guys were looking at each other with confusion on more than one play. The first SF TD was one example. Two of our DBs were sort of pointing at each other trying to figure out who dropped their coverage.

This is stuff we'll work out, of course.

lex
08-16-2009, 10:26 AM
I've just got to say Brandon lloyd had some damn nice catches! No joke it was like he had glue on his hands... I'll be very interested to see how he plays the rest of the way out. I've always liked what i've seen from him just too inconsistent. Needs to be a part of this offense!:thumbs:

I saw a couple of instances where he and Gaffney were putting little to no effort into blocking during running plays. Id have to rewatch it to be sure but one time, I think it was Gaffney, was almost trying to avoid it.

Cito Pelon
08-16-2009, 10:29 AM
I didn't watch it a 2nd time, but I wasn't highly impressed live. There's a lot of work to do, but there is still 28 days til the opener. The team will have maybe 4 days off during that time. As long as they buckle down and confidently work towards their goals, I'm sure there will be improvement seen.

Overall, not a bad performance for the first preseason game with a new staff, lots of new players.

The ST's looked better than I've seen that unit play since 1998. That's a huge positive. It's one third of the game, good ST's are a huge bonus to any team. Al Smith and McKinley have great natural ability as returners. It's obvious immediately when a returner is gonna be good, and those two obviously will be good. Plus, we still have Royal as their backup. The return game is gonna be good this year.

Elvis and Haggan have some speed and pop as the outside rushers. I wasn't expecting to see Haggan be the outside guy opposite Elvis. A little more hands and arms work from Haggan and he can be quite a good outside rusher in the 3-4. Those two can be pretty good bookend outside rushers. Plus, with Crowder, Ayers as backups that's a decent rotation. Inside on the DL, there was some pretty spotty play.

At LB in pass coverage, they have a lot of work to do. Woodyard was right there to make the INT on a pass to Vernon Davis, BUT HE HAD HIS BACK TO THE BALL! The ball went right over his head and he never even saw it. Ball awareness is not these LB's strengths. Maybe they'll get better at it as they relax into the system and get used to working together.

DJ I think will get better as we get closer to the opener. He has to be more patient. He tries to do too much. He goes tearing off into whatever he first sees and commits too early. He did that inside before, but he learned later in the year to be more patient and was more effective.

Overall, all considered it was a pretty good effort all around for the first preseason game. The first live action, it was apparent quite a few of the players were a little too manic. And maybe the coaches too. And certainly us fans.

kupesdad
08-16-2009, 10:29 AM
I don't think so. He is a FA this year (unless it is an uncapped year and I think everyone from this draft class are put into the non-FA category).

You're right...he hasn't extended

Steve Sewell
08-16-2009, 11:18 AM
I saw someone say that Orton looked like Griese, probably because of all the short passes.

Patriots offense is all about setting up the big play. They'll dink and dunk and chew up the field until the opportunity to go deep presents itself. If Orton can't throw the deep ball, it will be like Griese all over again.

P.S. I do like the way that Orton and the O moved the ball.

cabronco
08-16-2009, 01:12 PM
having said that though Hamilton is a technician and against some bigger players he does move them around, just not push them. He is also a master at pass blocking. Still though I would like to see Broncos end up with another bigger player at guard and center.

+1 I've been thinking the same thing. Its hard to watch Hamilton get pushed back so easily into the backfield at times. He does well for his size and his blocking, but I hope we upgrade to a bigger guard some day & Weigmans days are numbered anyways for retirement.

colonelbeef
08-16-2009, 01:45 PM
Orton
Yes, he obviously had problems. But, the first drive was impressive until the INT in the endzone. It really looked to me like he was aiming the ball, not just throwing it. He looked tentative. He's no Elway, but he's got better arm strength than he was showing last night, imo. I think he needs to come out and rip it next week. He really looked tentative, that's the only word I can think of. On 2 of the 3 picks, it probably wasn't a terrible idea.. he just needed to rip it. He's trying to aim the ball, imo.

That is a lot of words for "Orton ****ing blows"

You and those like you who thought it was a bright idea to lose Cutler will be fed your words with regularity.

Northman
08-16-2009, 01:47 PM
That is a lot of words for "Orton ****ing blows"

You and those like you who thought it was a bright idea to lose Cutler will be fed your words with regularity.


You mean the guy who had a lower rating than Orton in his preseason game. You mean that guy? Ha!

Popps
08-16-2009, 01:53 PM
That is a lot of words for "Orton ****ing blows"

You and those like you who thought it was a bright idea to lose Cutler will be fed your words with regularity.

Wow everyone, what a surprise. An interesting, constructive thread ruined by another Jay-Gay. What a surprise that colon-beef has no actual football input, only more nut-munching for Jay.

Broncos4tw
08-16-2009, 01:56 PM
Orton looked great? When? He is average, and looked it. I don't think he had a pass over 7 yards. He looks like Griese + Plummer... Griese with his short passing game, Plummer once he starts choking. He really needs to go out and prove something next week, imo.

Our run D looked more stout than I thought it would. I thought we were gonna get ripped apart.

Popps
08-16-2009, 01:57 PM
+1 I've been thinking the same thing. Its hard to watch Hamilton get pushed back so easily into the backfield at times. He does well for his size and his blocking, but I hope we upgrade to a bigger guard some day & Weigmans days are numbered anyways for retirement.

Olsen looked good when I saw him. Didn't key in on Blake S. yet. Anyone see him out there?

I'm under the weather, so I'm watching this game a few times. More things I noticed...


Doomervil
Looks great at OLB! Honestly, not just his sack, but he looks immediately comfortable out there. I didn't see him out of position or getting pushed around. Very encouraging for his first game.


Buckhalter
Didn't look as explosive as I remember him looking. He's got a few years on him. He's a back-up, but hopefully as he gets into football shape, he'll show more burst.

Popps
08-16-2009, 01:58 PM
Orton looked great? When? .

Who said that? I sure didn't.

Popps
08-16-2009, 02:02 PM
Smith

I'm really excited about this kid and I expect he'll be a starter sooner than later. His speed and lateral quickness just looks fantastic. He made a great catch-up play after getting beat, and generally played smart most of the night. He looked very good on returns, though I still wonder if McKinley might not be even better.


Special Teams
Guys, we played solid special teams! Anyone else notice that? It's been a long time.

We downed a punt inside the 7 yard line, we had a nice return average, we kept their returns in check and had at least one touchback on a great kickoff by Prater.

I'm absolutely pumped that this team is making special teams play a priority, finally.

CEH
08-16-2009, 03:14 PM
I didn't watch the game, but I see that SF top two rushers had 24 carries for 138 yards. That is very worrisome.

Very true and looking at the team in a macro sense here are a few other bad trends from '08 that raised it ugly head

Red Zone turnovers -cost us the game and gave the opposing O a short field
No Defensive turnovers to help out the O
The D not getting off the field -
2nd and long turning into 3rd and short. 3rd and long turing into a first down
First drive they converted a 3rd and 15 and turned a 2nd and 18 into 3rd and 3. If we had stop the first 3rd and 15 we might win the game outright

Orton throwing multiple picks under the lights be it at Invesco or Candlestick.
That needs to change by game 3 of preseason


On a postive note, it looks like McD can offense a team and generate yards as easily as Shanny. Now he will have to teach this team to seal the deal

Our D needs to get off teh field. Just one or two 3rd down stops more a game should bring down our PPG from 28 to 23-24 hopefully in line with the O.

Popps
08-16-2009, 03:18 PM
It's probably worth noting that Dawkins presence would have made a difference. I'll be excited to see him out there. We need experience/toughness right now.

tsiguy96
08-16-2009, 03:28 PM
You're right...he hasn't extended

what did you see that you liked/didnt like?

CEH
08-16-2009, 03:33 PM
It's probably worth noting that Dawkins presence would have made a difference. I'll be excited to see him out there. We need experience/toughness right now.

That's what I hoping for. A physical presence in the middle of the field will go a long ways toward getting off the field. I for one am not at all concern with the pass rush. I think we will get 40-50 sacks this year. It's the timely sacks that make a difference in a ball game.

colonelbeef
08-16-2009, 05:03 PM
Woodyard has always been too small... too productive as well.

I never understand the "he's too small" peanut gallery... if the guy makes plays, get him out there. I would much rather have a small guy with good instincts who likes to get in on plays than a big moron.

Cito Pelon
08-17-2009, 06:51 AM
Smith

I'm really excited about this kid and I expect he'll be a starter sooner than later. His speed and lateral quickness just looks fantastic. He made a great catch-up play after getting beat, and generally played smart most of the night. He looked very good on returns, though I still wonder if McKinley might not be even better.


Special Teams
Guys, we played solid special teams! Anyone else notice that? It's been a long time.

We downed a punt inside the 7 yard line, we had a nice return average, we kept their returns in check and had at least one touchback on a great kickoff by Prater.

I'm absolutely pumped that this team is making special teams play a priority, finally.

Having good ST's is such a bonus. They looked better than I've seen them for 10 yrs. I hope it's like that consistently.

Mr. Elway
08-17-2009, 07:09 AM
Rewatched some of the first half late last night.

Re: The Woodyard comments - on a couple of their successful runs it looked like Woodyard was having his ass handed to him by an OL. Clearly they took advantage of his size in those situations IMO.

Re: Moreno getting hurt - the first tackler (a DL) dove in and hit him on the leg. He was limping right away but stayed in for a couple more plays, including an impressive run for gain up the middle in a lot of traffic. Anyway sounds like he's going to be fine...

kupesdad
08-17-2009, 02:56 PM
what did you see that you liked/didnt like?

I'm up on the North slope of Alaska working and I didn't think the game was on so I went fishing....yes I'm an idiot because it was on. My wife DVR'd it and I talked to chris to see how he felt so until I actually see the game I can't tell you. I'm going to Seatlle this weekend to watch so I'll check in after that.

Popps
08-17-2009, 03:01 PM
Rewatched some of the first half late last night.

Re: The Woodyard comments - on a couple of their successful runs it looked like Woodyard was having his ass handed to him by an OL. Clearly they took advantage of his size in those situations IMO.

I didn't notice that, but I did notice that despite being out there a bit, Woodyard wasn't a factor at all. I wonder if this system is going to be a problem for him? Hope not. I really like the kid.

PRBronco
08-17-2009, 03:08 PM
I didn't notice that, but I did notice that despite being out there a bit, Woodyard wasn't a factor at all. I wonder if this system is going to be a problem for him? Hope not. I really like the kid.

I saw Woodyard take on a RB in space and actually wrap him and take him to the ground, that earns him my eternal adoration.

You're about noticing him though, he doesn't really stand out...but Larsen, holy crap I felt like every play I saw 46 in there gettin er done.