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Hulamau
08-10-2009, 04:46 AM
Doubt this made it onto ESPN :-)
http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_13027960

Orton responds with best practice of training camp
The Denver Post
Posted: 08/10/2009 01:00:00 AM MDT

Nobody booed Kyle Orton on Sunday.

During a 7-on-7 pass coverage drill early in the Broncos' practice at training camp, Orton threw a ball 40 yards until it landed perfectly in Brandon Stokley's hands, much to the dismay of cornerback Jack Williams.

Later, during a full-team controlled scrimmage, Orton threw touchdown passes on four consecutive plays — to Daniel Graham down the right seam, Jabar Gaffney in the back of the end zone, Gaffney again on a touch pass just inside the goal line and Eddie Royal on a hook pattern.

Orton then zipped completions to Stokley and Tony Scheffler during the practice-ending, two- minute drill.

It was Orton's best practice as a Bronco.

"Training camp's a grind right now. But when you start seeing improvement on the field like that and you start clicking with your receivers, it makes it fun to get out here and get back to work," Orton said.

As the architect of the Broncos' new offensive system, coach Josh McDaniels is more critical than most. But even he smiled when asked about Orton's performance.

"There's still some things early in practice I wish we would have done better," McDaniels said. "But Kyle feels comfortable in this offense, and there's a lot of things that he does that will help our team win."

Stokley stoked.

Stokley has the hands, quickness and instincts of a prototype slot receiver. But does he have the durability?

In the past two seasons, McDaniels' offense completed an NFL-high 223 passes to New Eng- land slot receiver Wes Welker.

That's a daunting workload for a receiver like Stokley, who caught 89 passes the past two seasons with the Broncos but missed a combined six games because of injuries and who recently turned 33.

"I haven't thought about it too much, but two years ago when I came here off the (torn) Achilles, I never thought I would start and play regularly," Stokley said. "I think I can play a lot of plays and take the grind of the season.

"I worked hard in the offseason and I'm ready to go, man. I'm ready to play football."

Mike Klis, The Denver Post

Broncoman13
08-10-2009, 05:50 AM
Okay, okay... I stand corrected. No way Stokes is going to be a surprise cut. He really has shown up this camp too. Good on ya Stokes.

lex
08-10-2009, 06:48 AM
Okay, okay... I stand corrected. No way Stokes is going to be a surprise cut. He really has shown up this camp too. Good on ya Stokes.


McaDaniels was doting on him and talking about ways he will be used this season. That doesnt really seem like will be cut.

Broncoman13
08-10-2009, 06:51 AM
I just figured that Gaffney does the same things and McKinney is the eventual replacement.

tsiguy96
08-10-2009, 07:19 AM
whoooooo. orton haters can suck it. atleast we know now that hes CAPABLE of playing at a very high level. just have to make sure he can do it again on gameday.

Drek
08-10-2009, 09:39 AM
McaDaniels was doting on him and talking about ways he will be used this season. That doesnt really seem like will be cut.

He had some harsh words on the Leach v. Paxton thing, made me think maybe he felt Gaffney was brought in for a similar purpose to squeeze him out.

But he's shown up to camp as the consummate pro and has been killing it, quickly developing some chemistry with Orton.

I think we'll see Stokley and Royal sharing Wes Welker's old passing assignments. Stokley isn't a 100% of the offensive plays kind of guy and that is pretty much what that role would require. He's a 50-60% of the offensive plays at the very most type if we want him healthy and contributing all season.

Should work well though since Royal is also our best deep threat and will fill that role of Randy Moss' as well, so he'll be able to spell Stokley and get plenty of touches. I wouldn't be surprised to see Scheffler take on some of those routes as well, he's most dangerous on deep routes as well.

colonelbeef
08-10-2009, 09:52 AM
whoooooo. orton haters can suck it. atleast we know now that hes CAPABLE of playing at a very high level. just have to make sure he can do it again on gameday.

it's called being inconsistent and mediocre. Somedays he will look decent, others he will look terrible. Kyle Orton is an inconsistent, mediocre football player. It's the reason he was benched for an equally crappy player in Rex Grossman.

This is no surprise whatsoever, and I advise you to be objective instead of pinning your heart and hopes on one 7v7 scrimmage.

gyldenlove
08-10-2009, 09:53 AM
He had some harsh words on the Leach v. Paxton thing, made me think maybe he felt Gaffney was brought in for a similar purpose to squeeze him out.

But he's shown up to camp as the consummate pro and has been killing it, quickly developing some chemistry with Orton.

I think we'll see Stokley and Royal sharing Wes Welker's old passing assignments. Stokley isn't a 100% of the offensive plays kind of guy and that is pretty much what that role would require. He's a 50-60% of the offensive plays at the very most type if we want him healthy and contributing all season.

Should work well though since Royal is also our best deep threat and will fill that role of Randy Moss' as well, so he'll be able to spell Stokley and get plenty of touches. I wouldn't be surprised to see Scheffler take on some of those routes as well, he's most dangerous on deep routes as well.

I think Royal will see a lot of the work that Welker got. Royal is extremely quick (quicker than Welker) he runs very sharp routes and has glue on his hands, if he developes good timing with Orton and they can build that intuition that Brady and Welker has, they will run wild against zone coverage.

If Marshall comes out ready to play he will be the "Moss" not so much as a deep threat, but as the one who stretches the field and forces double coverage by using his physicality. Moss is dangerous because he can create seperation before the catch, Marshall is dangerous because he can create yards after the catch.

Gcver2ver3
08-10-2009, 10:06 AM
Okay, okay... I stand corrected. No way Stokes is going to be a surprise cut. He really has shown up this camp too. Good on ya Stokes.

u and i both...

i have been tabbing stokes as a surprise cut as well...

but at this point, i'd be shocked...stokes has been an intergral part of the offense in TC and McD can't stop gushing over him...

stokes is good player...really good...

TailgateNut
08-10-2009, 10:08 AM
it's called being inconsistent and mediocre. Somedays he will look decent, others he will look terrible. Kyle Orton is an inconsistent, mediocre football player. It's the reason he was benched for an equally crappy player in Rex Grossman.

This is no surprise whatsoever, and I advise you to be objective instead of pinning your heart and hopes on one 7v7 scrimmage.

I see you're still bleeding from your mangina about the ****ler expulsion.Hilarious!

lex
08-10-2009, 10:12 AM
it's called being inconsistent and mediocre. Somedays he will look decent, others he will look terrible. Kyle Orton is an inconsistent, mediocre football player. It's the reason he was benched for an equally crappy player in Rex Grossman.

This is no surprise whatsoever, and I advise you to be objective instead of pinning your heart and hopes on one 7v7 scrimmage.


Youre wasting your time with that guy. He is the biggest mouth-breathing leghumper there is...second to Popps.

lazarus4444
08-10-2009, 10:14 AM
Good job Orton!


Hey, somebody had to say it. He throws two INT's in a practice and everybody jumps his **** but he does well and nobody says anything, double standard, whatever.

TailgateNut
08-10-2009, 10:16 AM
Youre wasting your time with that guy. He is the biggest mouth-breathing leghumper there is...second to Popps.


Shouldn't you be busy building your voodoo shrine to insure the Broncos loose enough games so your draft dreams come true?

DenverBrit
08-10-2009, 10:17 AM
it's called being inconsistent and mediocre. Somedays he will look decent, others he will look terrible. Kyle Orton is an inconsistent, mediocre football player. It's the reason he was benched for an equally crappy player in Rex Grossman.

This is no surprise whatsoever, and I advise you to be objective instead of pinning your heart and hopes on one 7v7 scrimmage.

A fine example of irony ;D

SoDak Bronco
08-10-2009, 10:19 AM
I think Woodyard is bound for the IR..


Injury report.
Two players running with the first team, running back LaMont Jordan and defensive end Kenny Peterson, did not participate in the 11-on-11 controlled scrimmages because of injuries. Outside linebacker Wesley Woodyard, who has been struggling to overcome a knee injury, joined wide receiver Brandon Marshall (hip) and safety Brian Dawkins (broken hand) inside the Broncos' facility while the rest of the team practiced.

SoDak Bronco
08-10-2009, 10:19 AM
Shouldn't you be busy building your voodoo shrine to insure the Broncos loose enough games so your draft dreams come true?

You mean the Seahawks draft?

lex
08-10-2009, 10:20 AM
He had some harsh words on the Leach v. Paxton thing, made me think maybe he felt Gaffney was brought in for a similar purpose to squeeze him out.

But he's shown up to camp as the consummate pro and has been killing it, quickly developing some chemistry with Orton.

I think we'll see Stokley and Royal sharing Wes Welker's old passing assignments. Stokley isn't a 100% of the offensive plays kind of guy and that is pretty much what that role would require. He's a 50-60% of the offensive plays at the very most type if we want him healthy and contributing all season.

Should work well though since Royal is also our best deep threat and will fill that role of Randy Moss' as well, so he'll be able to spell Stokley and get plenty of touches. I wouldn't be surprised to see Scheffler take on some of those routes as well, he's most dangerous on deep routes as well.


Yeah, when McDaniels was asked if he foresees Royal being another Welker, McDaniels bristled at that basically saying that Royal is too good for that and only that. Its like i was asking a while back, if you look at it, Royal has the better speed out of Marshall and Royal. Also, Marshall is really good at running after catch when catching screens. I dont think Royals or Marshalls roles will be so rigidly defined.

The only problem with trying to use Royal deep though is Ortons arm. Thats not piling on. Up until now I havent really said anything about Ortons arm strength. One of the reasons Ive held off is because a lot of long passes happen from a QB delivering the ball at the right time to the right place. But in watching the highlights of yesterdays practice, both Champ and Smith were able to break up long passes when the WR had a step.

lex
08-10-2009, 10:21 AM
Shouldn't you be busy building your voodoo shrine to insure the Broncos loose enough games so your draft dreams come true?
Denver has Chicago's pick, idiot.

lex
08-10-2009, 10:22 AM
Good job Orton!


Hey, somebody had to say it. He throws two INT's in a practice and everybody jumps his **** but he does well and nobody says anything, double standard, whatever.


Its driven by expectations. People expect the QB to do well.

DenverBrit
08-10-2009, 10:22 AM
Youre wasting your time with that guy. He is the biggest mouth-breathing leghumper there is...second to Popps.

More irony. ;D

lex
08-10-2009, 10:23 AM
More irony. ;D

Ive rarely been accused of being a leghumper. Youre not making any sense.

Punisher
08-10-2009, 10:24 AM
That's what i like to hear!

outdoor_miner
08-10-2009, 10:25 AM
it's called being inconsistent and mediocre. Somedays he will look decent, others he will look terrible. Kyle Orton is an inconsistent, mediocre football player. It's the reason he was benched for an equally crappy player in Rex Grossman.

This is no surprise whatsoever, and I advise you to be objective instead of pinning your heart and hopes on one 7v7 scrimmage.

Yeah - after a week of Training Camp, Orton should be a machine. No mistakes, no bad practices. Jay Cutler would never throw an interception in practice at this point in the season!

You are doing the exact same as tsiguy, only the opposite. You hate Orton and have made your judgment off of one bad practice at Invesco.

Paladin
08-10-2009, 10:26 AM
Okay, okay... I stand corrected. No way Stokes is going to be a surprise cut. He really has shown up this camp too. Good on ya Stokes.

I like it when you get corrected. It means GOOD things are happening.......


:welcome:

SoDak Bronco
08-10-2009, 10:28 AM
FYI- On Friday Night - AUG 14th the Broncos vs. 49ers game will be aired on the NFL Network at 9:00pm-12:00am!!!!! I believe this is live? Woohoo

DenverBrit
08-10-2009, 10:30 AM
Ive rarely been accused of being a leghumper. Youre not making any sense.


I don't recall mentioning 'frequency'.....by your own admission, you're a leghumper.

Got it now??

ScottXray
08-10-2009, 10:30 AM
Yeah - after a week of Training Camp, Orton should be a machine. No mistakes, no bad practices. Jay Cutler would never throw an interception in practice at this point in the season!

You are doing the exact same as tsiguy, only the opposite. You hate Orton and have made your judgment off of one bad practice at Invesco.

No, colonel has been on the rag about Orton all the way back to the trade. Not sure what exactly set him off, but he has been consistent in saying Orton would end up pissing in our cheerios. The Guy doesn't like Orton as our QB.

TailgateNut
08-10-2009, 10:34 AM
Denver has Chicago's pick, idiot.


Let me grab a crayon.

You come in here after half a season and hope/wish for Bronco losses so we can improve our draft position. Get IT?

It has nothing to do with comp picks.

lex
08-10-2009, 10:34 AM
I don't recall mentioning 'frequency'.....by your own admission, you're a leghumper.

Got it now??

Yeah, you dont know what youre talking about, once again. I got it.

lex
08-10-2009, 10:36 AM
Let me grab a crayon.

You come in here after half a season and hope/wish for Bronco losses so we can improve our draft position. Get IT?

It has nothing to do with comp picks.


When did that happen? This all goes back to the Minnesota game from 2 years ago. And even then I wasnt advocating trying to lose or tanking it. Get your **** together.

Punisher
08-10-2009, 10:39 AM
What's with the booing u cockmittens? Let's see how good you can throw with alcohol withdrawal shakes. I haven't had a drop in over 2 days!

http://twitter.com/KingNeckbeard

Punisher
08-10-2009, 10:40 AM
hold the ****ing phone! You little turdnuggets weren't booing me! You were yelling "booooze". You almost had me you ****ers!

lol

kamakazi_kal
08-10-2009, 10:40 AM
No, colonel has been on the rag about Orton all the way back to the trade. Not sure what exactly set him off, but he has been consistent in saying Orton would end up pissing in our cheerios. The Guy doesn't like Orton as our QB.

I agree with him...... Orton will play one year in Denver.

He's not the awnser.

TheDave
08-10-2009, 10:40 AM
I don't think anyone thought he was incapable of having a good practice... Unfortunately when 13,000 of us had a chance to see him for the first time he had a terrible practice.

DenverBrit
08-10-2009, 11:00 AM
Yeah, you dont know what youre talking about, once again. I got it.

I know you're a sad little chronic whiner.......but everyone knows that. Ha!

tsiguy96
08-10-2009, 11:03 AM
Yeah - after a week of Training Camp, Orton should be a machine. No mistakes, no bad practices. Jay Cutler would never throw an interception in practice at this point in the season!

You are doing the exact same as tsiguy, only the opposite. You hate Orton and have made your judgment off of one bad practice at Invesco.

im not making my judgment off this practice, but the improvement he is gradually showing in an admittedly difficult system for QBs to learn is very good. orton said its really hard to learn but once you do its a QBs best friend. maybe hes getting over the hump and learning how to be efficient in this system.

outdoor_miner
08-10-2009, 11:42 AM
im not making my judgment off this practice, but the improvement he is gradually showing in an admittedly difficult system for QBs to learn is very good. orton said its really hard to learn but once you do its a QBs best friend. maybe hes getting over the hump and learning how to be efficient in this system.

That's not exactly what I meant... All I was pointing out is that you are generally optimistic for the team, and you are using a positive practice to further justify your optimism. Colonelbeef is generally negative of the team, and he is using a negative practice to further justify his negativity. I was pointing out the hypocrisy in his calling you out when he does the exact same thing.

tsiguy96
08-10-2009, 11:45 AM
That's not exactly what I meant... All I was pointing out is that you are generally optimistic for the team, and you are using a positive practice to further justify your optimism. Colonelbeef is generally negative of the team, and he is using a negative practice to further justify his negativity. I was pointing out the hypocrisy in his calling you out when he does the exact same thing.

good point. except having a bad practice does not necessarily mean he will be that way all year, especially if hes showing improvement in the following practices.

Slade
08-10-2009, 11:52 AM
I went to both the stadium practice on Thursday and the walkthrough practice on Friday. IMO, Kyle will be fine. He can make all the throws, but in reality 95% of the throws will be underneath. Chris Simms sucks btw. That guy has a great arm, but can't make a decision to save his life!

HAT
08-10-2009, 11:56 AM
Kyle Orton is an inconsistent, mediocre football player.


In the Bears offensive system, with the Bears O-line, & the Bears skill players...None of which apply anymore.

tsiguy96
08-10-2009, 11:58 AM
I went to both the stadium practice on Thursday and the walkthrough practice on Friday. IMO, Kyle will be fine. He can make all the throws, but in reality 95% of the throws will be underneath. Chris Simms sucks btw. That guy has a great arm, but can't make a decision to save his life!

thats not even a bad thing either. safe passes are better for winning games, long bombs to marshall dont win too many games. we have such talent at the skill positions that orton just needs to get them the ball and let them do what they do.

broncocalijohn
08-10-2009, 12:02 PM
Denver has Chicago's pick, idiot.

Your mock draft board isnt just based on 1st round picks. You nerd it up all the way to 7th rounders (and probably UFA too). You have been exposed once you told us you rooted against the Broncos vs the 49ers as you wore your Broncos jersey in a Chicago bar.

broncocalijohn
08-10-2009, 12:08 PM
When did that happen? This all goes back to the Minnesota game from 2 years ago. And even then I wasnt advocating trying to lose or tanking it. Get your **** together.

maybe the team to tank but you sure did. In fact, you probably have post to not put the best players out there. See my post above.

DarkHorse
08-10-2009, 12:12 PM
Friday cannot get here fast enough - time to see firsthand a little bit of our new offense.

Not looking for a superstar 35 point game on Friday tho. Will be happy to see some action without injuries.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
08-10-2009, 12:14 PM
I think Woodyard is bound for the IR..


Injury report.
Two players running with the first team, running back LaMont Jordan and defensive end Kenny Peterson, did not participate in the 11-on-11 controlled scrimmages because of injuries. Outside linebacker Wesley Woodyard, who has been struggling to overcome a knee injury, joined wide receiver Brandon Marshall (hip) and safety Brian Dawkins (broken hand) inside the Broncos' facility while the rest of the team practiced.

I thought they were originally classifying Brandon's injury as a groin or hamstring pull.

Am I the only one moderately concerned about it?

Hulamau
08-10-2009, 12:17 PM
I think Royal will see a lot of the work that Welker got. Royal is extremely quick (quicker than Welker) he runs very sharp routes and has glue on his hands, if he developes good timing with Orton and they can build that intuition that Brady and Welker has, they will run wild against zone coverage.

If Marshall comes out ready to play he will be the "Moss" not so much as a deep threat, but as the one who stretches the field and forces double coverage by using his physicality. Moss is dangerous because he can create seperation before the catch, Marshall is dangerous because he can create yards after the catch.

Good post gyldenlove!

TailgateNut
08-10-2009, 12:17 PM
Your mock draft board isnt just based on 1st round picks. You nerd it up all the way to 7th rounders (and probably UFA too). You have been exposed once you told us you rooted against the Broncos vs the 49ers as you wore your Broncos jersey in a Chicago bar.


Thanks for the "Back-up". Lex seems to think we forget way to quickly. The threads about the benefits of losing a few games to move up in the next years draft were sickening, to say the least.

lex
08-10-2009, 12:22 PM
Your mock draft board isnt just based on 1st round picks. You nerd it up all the way to 7th rounders (and probably UFA too). You have been exposed once you told us you rooted against the Broncos vs the 49ers as you wore your Broncos jersey in a Chicago bar.

This is wrong. You must be thinking of someone else.

lex
08-10-2009, 12:23 PM
maybe the team to tank but you sure did. In fact, you probably have post to not put the best players out there. See my post above.


Do you want to take another stab at this. This makes sense not.

BroncoMan4ever
08-10-2009, 12:32 PM
i am liking that even after a good practice that McD isn't satisfied. i remember reports coming out about someone having the best camp the coaches had ever seen under the Shanahan regime, but now it is just he had a good day but we could have done better.

UberBroncoMan
08-10-2009, 12:38 PM
I think Woodyard is bound for the IR..


Injury report.
Two players running with the first team, running back LaMont Jordan and defensive end Kenny Peterson, did not participate in the 11-on-11 controlled scrimmages because of injuries. Outside linebacker Wesley Woodyard, who has been struggling to overcome a knee injury, joined wide receiver Brandon Marshall (hip) and safety Brian Dawkins (broken hand) inside the Broncos' facility while the rest of the team practiced.

Please don't say that stuff :nono:

DarkHorse
08-10-2009, 12:43 PM
Dunno if Woodyard would even make the field this year. I'd love to see him out there - he's a gamer but who knows at this point.

He'll probably be a ST player.

Kaylore
08-10-2009, 01:15 PM
As someone who has seen Orton since day one I can tell you that 90% of the time he has been solid to excellent. The few mistakes I've seen him make he's worked to improve. I have no illusions about him not being Jay Cutler and let's not pretend he ever will be. However there is more good than bad in Orton.

I think the Dave said it best. The practice at the stadium is all people are grading him on since it was the one with the highest visibility to this point. Suddenly everyone is jumping off a cliff because he had an average (not bad) practice five days practicing with pads in a new system with new receivers. People need to relax. It's going to take time for him to come on, but he will and he will be efficient and effective enough.

Bronco fans should be happy because he's in the perfect situation. If he emerges as a long term answer then that's great! If not, he'll simply be a place holder for us to rebuild the defense and shore up some other positions long term before we make a change. He has a great line and great receivers with good coaches. No one expects him or the team to do well so really we can only look up at this point.

There are many things I have serious concerns about with this team, but after watching him practice, Orton is pretty low on my list.

colonelbeef
08-10-2009, 01:17 PM
I see you're still bleeding from your mangina about the ****ler expulsion.Hilarious!

these are facts. Orton is a mediocre pro football QB. This is about the Denver Broncos of today, nothing more. I said the same about Griese when he was here. Being a Bronco does not elevate a player artificially in my eyes, either he is a good player or he is not, quite simple. Only the truly blind would call Kyle Orton anything other than a mediocre QB, and I am quite sure that exactly zero of you were singing his praises before he became the Broncos' starting QB. In fact, if you go back and read through the countless threads examining other players in the NFL prior to the trade, I am certain that you will find exactly ZERO posts claiming Kyle Orton to be anything other than garbage.

I think he is above garbage, but on the low end of mediocre. He has demonstrated this repeatedly over his career and will probably (unfortunately) continue to do so. I have nothing against him, I actually appreciate a guy who is a little wild on his own time, likes booze and ladies, so long as he can back it up on the field. He just doesn't do it for me as a player, regardless of how the rest of the team performs.

broncswin
08-10-2009, 01:21 PM
Okay, okay... I stand corrected. No way Stokes is going to be a surprise cut. He really has shown up this camp too. Good on ya Stokes.

Thats the difference between a good poster and a bad one. A good poster takes the heat when he is wrong. :thumbs:

Br0nc0Buster
08-10-2009, 01:23 PM
these are facts. Orton is a mediocre pro football QB. This is about the Denver Broncos of today, nothing more. I said the same about Griese when he was here. Being a Bronco does not elevate a player artificially in my eyes, either he is a good player or he is not, quite simple. Only the truly blind would call Kyle Orton anything other than a mediocre QB, and I am quite sure that exactly zero of you were singing his praises before he became the Broncos' starting QB. In fact, if you go back and read through the countless threads examining other players in the NFL prior to the trade, I am certain that you will find exactly ZERO posts claiming Kyle Orton to be anything other than garbage.

I think he is above garbage, but on the low end of mediocre. He has demonstrated this repeatedly over his career and will probably (unfortunately) continue to do so. I have nothing against him, I actually appreciate a guy who is a little wild on his own time, likes booze and ladies, so long as he can back it up on the field. He just doesn't do it for me as a player, regardless of how the rest of the team performs.

um actually not a single thing you said there was a fact.
Just because you use the word doesnt mean you can change its definition

gyldenlove
08-10-2009, 01:25 PM
As someone who has seen Orton since day one I can tell you that 90% of the time he has been solid to excellent. The few mistakes I've seen him make he's worked to improve. I have no illusions about him not being Jay Cutler and let's not pretend he ever will be. However there is more good than bad in Orton.

I think the Dave said it best. The practice at the stadium is all people are grading him on since it was the one with the highest visibility to this point. Suddenly everyone is jumping off a cliff because he had an average (not bad) practice five days practicing with pads in a new system with new receivers. People need to relax. It's going to take time for him to come on, but he will and he will be efficient and effective enough.

Bronco fans should be happy because he's in the perfect situation. If he emerges as a long term answer then that's great! If not, he'll simply be a place holder for us to rebuild the defense and shore up some other positions long term before we make a change. He has a great line and great receivers with good coaches. No one expects him or the team to do well so really we can only look up at this point.

There are many things I have serious concerns about with this team, but after watching him practice, Orton is pretty low on my list.

You are too optimistic Khan, I thought your wife would have beaten that out of you by now.

There isn't much to worry about with Orton, we know what we are getting. He is an average QB who will make a few mistakes and miss a few plays, but on the whole he is an NFL player.

The only problem I have is the notion that if he turns out not to be a good fit for us that we can simply use him as a stopgap and then find a replacement. As many teams can attest, finding a replacement QB is not easy, the Raiders still haven't replaced Gannon, Tampa Bay still hasn't replaced whoever they had that could play, certainly the 49ers have never replaced Steve Young. I really do hope Orton works out because it would say us a world of problems, if he doesn't, we could be up the creek.

colonelbeef
08-10-2009, 01:29 PM
um actually not a single thing you said there was a fact.
Just because you use the word doesnt mean you can change its definition


There are easily 20 better Qbs in the league, he is in the bottom 3rd. Maybe you are right, saying he is mediocre is being a bit optimistic.

Kyle Orton is not better than anyone on this list. Fact: Not being top 20 out of 32 makes you decidedly mediocre.

http://www.sportingnews.com/nfl/article/2009-05-14/quarterback-rankings-intangibles-make-best-leaders

broncswin
08-10-2009, 01:30 PM
This is wrong. You must be thinking of someone else.

Damn lex, don't tell me you rooted against the Broncos in front of chi-town fans, with a Bronco jersey on. That is SHIATTY any way you sling it...if true.:pimp:

broncswin
08-10-2009, 01:31 PM
There are easily 20 better Qbs in the league, he is in the bottom 3rd. Maybe you are right, saying he is mediocre is being a bit optimistic.

Kyle Orton is not better than anyone on this list. Fact: Not being top 20 out of 32 makes you decidedly mediocre.

http://www.sportingnews.com/nfl/article/2009-05-14/quarterback-rankings-intangibles-make-best-leaders

Orton can be mediocre all he wants as long as we are winning!! Kerry F-ing Collins is the definition of Mediocre through out his career.:thumbs:

colonelbeef
08-10-2009, 01:31 PM
You are too optimistic Khan, I thought your wife would have beaten that out of you by now.

There isn't much to worry about with Orton, we know what we are getting. He is an average QB who will make a few mistakes and miss a few plays, but on the whole he is an NFL player.

The only problem I have is the notion that if he turns out not to be a good fit for us that we can simply use him as a stopgap and then find a replacement. As many teams can attest, finding a replacement QB is not easy, the Raiders still haven't replaced Gannon, Tampa Bay still hasn't replaced whoever they had that could play, certainly the 49ers have never replaced Steve Young. I really do hope Orton works out because it would say us a world of problems, if he doesn't, we could be up the creek.

I think this is spot on, and leaving aside what happened in order for us to be in this position, the best way to look at it. Taking the statistics out of it- if you are looking for Orton to be anything above average, you are going to be disappointed.

colonelbeef
08-10-2009, 01:33 PM
Orton can be mediocre all he wants as long as we are winning!! Kerry F-ing Collins is the definition of Mediocre through out his career.:thumbs:


That is fair, and the way I am going to approach this season. If he sucks and costs us games, it's going to be ugly, and I don't want to go through being a fan of another disaster, the Mets and Knicks have taken it all out of me.

24champ
08-10-2009, 01:34 PM
There are many things I have serious concerns about with this team, but after watching him practice, Orton is pretty low on my list.

So what is high on that list?

lex
08-10-2009, 01:36 PM
Damn lex, don't tell me you rooted against the Broncos in front of chi-town fans, with a Bronco jersey on. That is SHIATTY any way you sling it...if true.:pimp:


I have no idea what youre talking about.

Br0nc0Buster
08-10-2009, 01:40 PM
There are easily 20 better Qbs in the league, he is in the bottom 3rd. Maybe you are right, saying he is mediocre is being a bit optimistic.

Kyle Orton is not better than anyone on this list. Fact: Not being top 20 out of 32 makes you decidedly mediocre.

http://www.sportingnews.com/nfl/article/2009-05-14/quarterback-rankings-intangibles-make-best-leaders

FACT: players can improve their game over time or through new systems
Example: Drew Brees

Not saying Orton will be as good, but there is a good chance he can improve, he is only 26

_Oro_
08-10-2009, 01:40 PM
There are easily 20 better Qbs in the league, he is in the bottom 3rd. Maybe you are right, saying he is mediocre is being a bit optimistic.

Kyle Orton is not better than anyone on this list. Fact: Not being top 20 out of 32 makes you decidedly mediocre.

http://www.sportingnews.com/nfl/article/2009-05-14/quarterback-rankings-intangibles-make-best-leaders

There's some young guys on that list who are still unknowns. But I don't think Campbell, Delhomme, Pennington, or Hasselbeck are clearly better than Orton.

TailgateNut
08-10-2009, 01:43 PM
these are facts. Orton is a mediocre pro football QB. This is about the Denver Broncos of today, nothing more. I said the same about Griese when he was here. Being a Bronco does not elevate a player artificially in my eyes, either he is a good player or he is not, quite simple. Only the truly blind would call Kyle Orton anything other than a mediocre QB, and I am quite sure that exactly zero of you were singing his praises before he became the Broncos' starting QB. In fact, if you go back and read through the countless threads examining other players in the NFL prior to the trade, I am certain that you will find exactly ZERO posts claiming Kyle Orton to be anything other than garbage.

I think he is above garbage, but on the low end of mediocre. He has demonstrated this repeatedly over his career and will probably (unfortunately) continue to do so. I have nothing against him, I actually appreciate a guy who is a little wild on his own time, likes booze and ladies, so long as he can back it up on the field. He just doesn't do it for me as a player, regardless of how the rest of the team performs.


Well, if those are the "FACTS", then we should be content with a 4-12 to 6-10 season and count our blessings, and if those are the "FACTS" chicago should easily make it far into the playoffs, considering they traded a "low end mediocre QB" for a "pro-bowl caliber QB".

Damn, I should have seen the writing on the wall and returned my season tix.


Here's a few of "MY FACTS": Cutler generally couldn't do **** once he got into the red zone. He was prone to interceptions and playing bumble ball.

Kaylore
08-10-2009, 01:44 PM
So what is high on that list?

In order of concern: Prater, that we don't have anyone even competing with Prater, Hamilton and Wiegman getting shoved around by our defensive line, our rush defense, our "very special" teams coverage, Marshall's hip, that they're still trying to figure out what to do at OLB, ditto for DE, and Dawkins' hand.

I really think if we lose games this year, it won't be because of Kyle Orton. I think it will be several other things. I do like that we're getting turnovers again and I like the staff. I just think it will take a full year and another offseason of roster moves for this team to look like it's "supposed to" look like.

broncswin
08-10-2009, 01:47 PM
Well, if those are the "FACTS", then we should be content with a 4-12 to 6-10 season and count our blessings, and if those are the "FACTS" chicago should easily make it far into the playoffs, considering they traded a "low end mediocre QB" for a "pro-bowl caliber QB".

Damn, I should have seen the writing on the wall and returned my season tix.


Here's a few of "MY FACTS": Cutler generally couldn't do **** once he got into the red zone. He was prone to interceptions and playing bumble ball.


I agree, the guy froze up inside the 20. Good QB's make plays in open space, Great QB's make plays in the redzone when the field gets tight and ever throw and decision is magnified.

Cito Pelon
08-10-2009, 01:48 PM
u and i both...

i have been tabbing stokes as a surprise cut as well...

but at this point, i'd be shocked...stokes has been an intergral part of the offense in TC and McD can't stop gushing over him...

stokes is good player...really good...

How in the world anybody would have thought Stokley would get cut I don't know. When did this thought occur to you? The guy is too valuable of a weapon to cut for a younger guy this year. I thought it was a given Stokley would be opening the season.

Paladin
08-10-2009, 01:49 PM
That is fair, and the way I am going to approach this season. If he sucks and costs us games, it's going to be ugly, and I don't want to go through being a fan of another disaster, the Mets and Knicks have taken it all out of me.

IMHO, you are putting too much emphasis on the play of the QB. In Shanahan's system, the QB needed a "long" arm, and Quitler fit that game okay, even thought he didn't win a damm thing in it. In McD's system, the QB manages the game and rarely thows further than 20 or so yards. YAC is the bigger stat. The emphasis is on keeping errors down by throwing to the open WR, RB, or whoever, because the system is designed to get people open, and to move the chains. I think the bevy of RBs will challenge Ds significantl; the OLine is the same as last year after all..... Occassionally, I would expect a throw of around 30 yards or so, but that is secondary.

All the beef (Pun? What pun?) about Orton is rather inconsequential. Try and support the team a bit, um 'kay? At least until they get to the Season......

TailgateNut
08-10-2009, 01:49 PM
That is fair, and the way I am going to approach this season. If he sucks and costs us games, it's going to be ugly, and I don't want to go through being a fan of another disaster, the Mets and Knicks have taken it all out of me.

You're welcome to become a J E T S fan. :thumbs:

lex
08-10-2009, 01:51 PM
[/B]


I agree, the guy froze up inside the 20. Good QB's make plays in open space, Great QB's make plays in the redzone when the field gets tight and ever throw and decision is magnified.


Jay was under more pressure to deliver than practically every QB in the league. The defense was so bad it perpetuated this idea that he had to initiate the action just to keep up. A lof of QBs are afforded the leeway of not forcing it or throwing it away.

Did the offense need to score on every possession in every game? No, but its easy to understand why that thought manifested itself.

Paladin
08-10-2009, 01:52 PM
you're welcome to become a j e t s fan. :thumbs:

+1

broncswin
08-10-2009, 01:55 PM
Jay was under more pressure to deliver than practically every QB in the league. The defense was so bad it perpetuated this idea that he had to initiate the action just to keep up. A lof of QBs are afforded the leeway of not forcing it or throwing it away.

Did the offense need to score on every possession in every game? No, but its easy to understand why that thought manifested itself.

I guess we will see how he does in the redzone with Chi. but I just believe he is one of those guys, that when pressure time comes(like redzone chances), he freezes up. I think Jay is a good QB, but we have seen alot of good QB's choked in pressure situations. In my opinion, he overthinks things, and it is too easy to get in his head. EXAMPLE...RIVERS(god I hate that guy)

colonelbeef
08-10-2009, 02:13 PM
You're welcome to become a J E T S fan. :thumbs:

No, you blind homers need fans with opinions based on factual evidence and reality to bring you back to earth once in a while, otherwise you would already be planning the parade and getting the aluminum foil Lombardi trophy ready

colonelbeef
08-10-2009, 02:16 PM
Well, if those are the "FACTS", then we should be content with a 4-12 to 6-10 season and count our blessings, and if those are the "FACTS" chicago should easily make it far into the playoffs, considering they traded a "low end mediocre QB" for a "pro-bowl caliber QB".

Damn, I should have seen the writing on the wall and returned my season tix.


Here's a few of "MY FACTS": Cutler generally couldn't do **** once he got into the red zone. He was prone to interceptions and playing bumble ball.

of course you are willing to overlook the fact that this is a team game, and hopefully the team will be good enough to cover up the inadequacies at QB. Just as Orton was carried to a better record than he deserved (Grossman as well) and Cutler was dragged down with the worst defense any of us have ever seen.

DenverBrit
08-10-2009, 02:18 PM
No, you blind homers need fans with opinions based on factual evidence and reality to bring you back to earth once in a while, otherwise you would already be planning the parade and getting the aluminum foil Lombardi trophy ready

So you're saying, don't make a snap judgment about Orton until you've seen him play for the Broncos.

I agree, let's wait and see. ;D

broncswin
08-10-2009, 02:23 PM
So you're saying, don't make a snap judgment about Orton until you've seen him play for the Broncos.

I agree, let's wait and see. ;D

ZING!!:thumbs:

colonelbeef
08-10-2009, 02:40 PM
So you're saying, don't make a snap judgment about Orton until you've seen him play for the Broncos.

I agree, let's wait and see. ;D

Eh, we knew what Plummer was prior to coming to the Broncos, and although he did improve statistically, he had a definite ceiling, which was demonstrated rather painfully on the national stage.

I've seen enough of Orton to make an analysis of his play and potential. He isn't a rookie coming from Kutztown. He played for the Bears since 2005.

Bottom line, he will likely improve to a degree, McDaniels hopefully is the QB coach that he has been purported to be, and I am optimistic that he can be a top 15ish QB at least statistically. He won't win games, but he wont lose them either.

TailgateNut
08-10-2009, 02:46 PM
of course you are willing to overlook the fact that this is a team game, and hopefully the team will be good enough to cover up the inadequacies at QB. Just as Orton was carried to a better record than he deserved (Grossman as well) and Cutler was dragged down with the worst defense any of us have ever seen.

What did our defense, or lack thereof have to do with ****ler constantly choking in the Red Zone?

DenverBrit
08-10-2009, 02:50 PM
I am optimistic that he can be a top 15ish QB at least statistically.

I think he is above garbage, but on the low end of mediocre.


I sense you are conflicted. Ha!

TailgateNut
08-10-2009, 02:51 PM
No, you blind homers need fans with opinions based on factual evidence and reality to bring you back to earth once in a while, otherwise you would already be planning the parade and getting the aluminum foil Lombardi trophy ready


I'm not a "Blind Homer", but at the same time I don't suffer from having "****ler's cock in mouth syndrome". I take the bad with the good and am willing to give who we currently have passing the rock, a chance to make it or break it.

Your BS "factual evidence" uses Chicago's ****ty offense to warp Orton's stats while blaming our ****ty defense for ****ler's mistakes and losses.

Whatever gets you wet!

BroncoMan4ever
08-10-2009, 02:52 PM
Dunno if Woodyard would even make the field this year. I'd love to see him out there - he's a gamer but who knows at this point.

He'll probably be a ST player.

if Woodyard can play, he will be on the field a lot. he won't start but he will be with the defense on the field often.

kamakazi_kal
08-10-2009, 02:53 PM
I have seen Orton play quite a bit. I'm not impressed but, I think this year will be won or lost on the legs of moreno not the arm of Orton.

As for Cutler in the redzone ... he can now just dump it off to forte just like Orton did some 60+ times last year.

TailgateNut
08-10-2009, 02:57 PM
I have seen Orton play quite a bit. I'm not impressed but, I think this year will be won or lost on the legs of moreno not the arm of Orton.

As for Cutler in the redzone ... he can now just dump it off to forte just like Orton did some 60+ times last year.

Well then C untler should make it back to the pro-bowl, shouldn't he? We know he can't win those "must win games" to make it to the play-offs and beyond.

Mr. Elway
08-10-2009, 02:59 PM
I understand some of the persistent negativity surrounding Orton on a cerebral level, but it must really suck to be down on your own team. Talk about taking all the fun out of it.

kamakazi_kal
08-10-2009, 03:03 PM
I understand some of the persistent negativity surrounding Orton on a cerebral level, but it must really suck to be down on your own team. Talk about taking all the fun out of it.

I'm telling you "Moreno or bust"

TailgateNut
08-10-2009, 03:07 PM
I'm telling you "Moreno or bust"


:rofl:


Yep! That's all we have going for us this year.

You should consider Charger FanDom. They only get on board after the season is almost over. "Just wanna be sure the team will do well before rooting for them".

kamakazi_kal
08-10-2009, 03:13 PM
:rofl:


Yep! That's all we have going for us this year.

You should consider Charger FanDom. They only get on board after the season is almost over. "Just wanna be sure the team will do well before rooting for them".

Naw .... I'm allowed to bitch all I want. This offseason has been trying. That being said I can't wait for some real football. Hopefully I'll be eating all kinds of crow by week 2.

I really do think that if Denver is going to have a good year were gonna have to run as much as we had to throw last year. Protect the D and all that good ball control stuff.

Shocking as this maybe, I still don't see Orton as the weakest part of the team ..... that's still held by the DL. I don't hate Orton but I can't see what everyone is so jacked on the guy for.

TailgateNut
08-10-2009, 03:23 PM
Naw .... I'm allowed to b**** all I want. This offseason has been trying. That being said I can't wait for some real football. Hopefully I'll be eating all kinds of crow by week 2.

I really do think that if Denver is going to have a good year were gonna have to run as much as we had to throw last year. Protect the D and all that good ball control stuff.

Shocking as this maybe, I still don't see Orton as the weakest part of the team ..... that's still held by the DL. I don't hate Orton but I can't see what everyone is so jacked on the guy for.

Well, I'm not "jacked" on Orton, but am willing to see what he does with the rest of the "crew".

Cito Pelon
08-10-2009, 03:29 PM
You are too optimistic Khan, I thought your wife would have beaten that out of you by now.

There isn't much to worry about with Orton, we know what we are getting. He is an average QB who will make a few mistakes and miss a few plays, but on the whole he is an NFL player.

The only problem I have is the notion that if he turns out not to be a good fit for us that we can simply use him as a stopgap and then find a replacement. As many teams can attest, finding a replacement QB is not easy, the Raiders still haven't replaced Gannon, Tampa Bay still hasn't replaced whoever they had that could play, certainly the 49ers have never replaced Steve Young. I really do hope Orton works out because it would say us a world of problems, if he doesn't, we could be up the creek.

You're looking for problems and the Broncs haven't even played a preseason game yet. Relax.

Mr. Elway
08-10-2009, 03:33 PM
It's a free country and I don't think negative fans are "bad" fans... I just think it must suck to be that way. Having optimism for the team you love is fun, and it doesn't mean you can't be educated and informed about what's going on. Being a fan is supposed to be fun before everything else, right?

Cito Pelon
08-10-2009, 03:44 PM
In order of concern: Prater, that we don't have anyone even competing with Prater, Hamilton and Wiegman getting shoved around by our defensive line, our rush defense, our "very special" teams coverage, Marshall's hip, that they're still trying to figure out what to do at OLB, ditto for DE, and Dawkins' hand.

I really think if we lose games this year, it won't be because of Kyle Orton. I think it will be several other things. I do like that we're getting turnovers again and I like the staff. I just think it will take a full year and another offseason of roster moves for this team to look like it's "supposed to" look like.

'"Supposed to" look like' means an AFC West Title and Conference Title, I guess?

That's what I'm looking forward to. I'm sick and tired of having my location on this board "Not In AFC West Championshipville."

Northman
08-10-2009, 03:46 PM
it's called being inconsistent and mediocre. Somedays he will look decent, others he will look terrible. .

You mean like Cutler was last year?

elsid13
08-10-2009, 03:46 PM
IMHO, you are putting too much emphasis on the play of the QB. In Shanahan's system, the QB needed a "long" arm, and Quitler fit that game okay, even thought he didn't win a damm thing in it. In McD's system, the QB manages the game and rarely thows further than 20 or so yards. YAC is the bigger stat. The emphasis is on keeping errors down by throwing to the open WR, RB, or whoever, because the system is designed to get people open, and to move the chains. I think the bevy of RBs will challenge Ds significantl; the OLine is the same as last year after all..... Occassionally, I would expect a throw of around 30 yards or so, but that is secondary.

All the beef (Pun? What pun?) about Orton is rather inconsequential. Try and support the team a bit, um 'kay? At least until they get to the Season......

Actually that is completely wrong. Shanahan ran a version of WCO passing attack were the QB didn't go long but depend on quick slants and outs to both the WR, TE and RB out of backfield. That why you need a WR like Marshall, Smith or Eddie Mac. Big WR that can go across the middle. Royal is also very similar to WCO WR because he able to go across the middle and get YAC after the catch. The only additions to traditional WCO passing attack that Shanahan added were the shotgun (Elway felt extremely comfort running plays out of it and spreading the field for Sharpe) and strong
use of PA, including the rollouts and bootlegs.

The EP system that McDaniels runs also dependent on Short Passing Attack and PA. The major difference is how they use the TE in the game. In WCO the TE is required to control the middle of the field, while in EP system they use the back leaking out to do that. I am sure that we will see more use of the TE because of the current personnel grouping that we have in Denver.

Both system will require the QB to make long throw down the field once or twice a game to force the safeties out of the box and open up the underneath stuff.

DBroncos4life
08-10-2009, 03:50 PM
It's a free country and I don't think negative fans are "bad" fans... I just think it must suck to be that way. Having optimism for the team you love is fun, and it doesn't mean you can't be educated and informed about what's going on. Being a fan is supposed to be fun before everything else, right?

Why is it if you question things or have doubt you are a negative? I for one hope that we win the SB, but that doesn't stop me from thinking that some moves we made this offseason could hurt us.

2KBack
08-10-2009, 03:56 PM
Actually that is completely wrong. Shanahan ran a version of WCO passing attack were the QB didn't go long but depend on quick slants and outs to both the WR, TE and RB out of backfield. That why you need a WR like Marshall, Smith or Eddie Mac. Big WR that can go across the middle. Royal is also very similar to WCO WR because he able to go across the middle and get YAC after the catch. The only additions to traditional WCO passing attack that Shanahan added were the shotgun (Elway felt extremely comfort running plays out of it and spreading the field for Sharpe) and strong
use of PA, including the rollouts and bootlegs.

The EP system that McDaniels runs also dependent on Short Passing Attack and PA. The major difference is how they use the TE in the game. In WCO the TE is required to control the middle of the field, while in EP system they use the back leaking out to do that. I am sure that we will see more use of the TE because of the current personnel grouping that we have in Denver.

Both system will require the QB to make long throw down the field once or twice a game to force the safeties out of the box and open up the underneath stuff.

He didn't run that offense last season. I spent the whole year screaming for a slant route. It was vertical passing and square routes. One of the reasons I hated Bates to be honest, I like shanahan offenses, and last year was no shanahan offense.

Cito Pelon
08-10-2009, 04:04 PM
Why is it if you question things or have doubt you are a negative? I for one hope that we win the SB, but that doesn't stop me from thinking that some moves we made this offseason could hurt us.

Dude, the amount of complaining and sniveling about the team has been so completely outrageous it's fun to ridicule the negative posters. It's very fun.

elsid13
08-10-2009, 04:04 PM
He didn't run that offense last season. I spent the whole year screaming for a slant route. It was vertical passing and square routes. One of the reasons I hated Bates to be honest, I like shanahan offenses, and last year was no shanahan offense.

There were a number of reasons for that, some of it was because they were attempting to bring in the spread look because of the success NE had with it and other was because of the injury to Marshall. He is the guy that make that route work.

But they ran more slants and digs then then you think, off the top of my head there was the TD and 2 point conversion in the SD game, the TD to Graham in Atlanta and couple in the TB game.

Mr. Elway
08-10-2009, 04:05 PM
Why is it if you question things or have doubt you are a negative? I for one hope that we win the SB, but that doesn't stop me from thinking that some moves we made this offseason could hurt us.

Don't get me wrong - it's not that. It's just that some of the posters truly nothing but doom and gloom for the season. I don't put skeptics in that camp. Just people who are already convinced we suck, and Orton sucks, without giving them a chance first.

FireFly
08-10-2009, 04:28 PM
u and i both...

i have been tabbing stokes as a surprise cut as well...

but at this point, i'd be shocked...stokes has been an intergral part of the offense in TC and McD can't stop gushing over him...

stokes is good player...really good...

I'd be incredibly disappointed if he were cut. He's a hard working good guy. The type we want on our team.

colonelbeef
08-10-2009, 06:33 PM
I sense you are conflicted. Ha!

Statistically being the key phrase. I think he can have decent numbers in the New England style passing attack, I just don't think that when it comes down to it, he is good enough with the current supporting cast to actually win games of importance.

colonelbeef
08-10-2009, 06:37 PM
You mean like Cutler was last year?

We can only dream that Orton is mediocre to the tune of 4500 passing yards and 25 tds.

Los Broncos
08-10-2009, 06:39 PM
FYI- On Friday Night - AUG 14th the Broncos vs. 49ers game will be aired on the NFL Network at 9:00pm-12:00am!!!!! I believe this is live? Woohoo

Its 7pm PST.

Rabb
08-10-2009, 06:40 PM
We can only dream that Orton is mediocre to the tune of 4500 passing yards and 25 tds.

ohh don't forget the pro bowl!














aaaaand an 8-8 record

colonelbeef
08-10-2009, 06:44 PM
ohh don't forget the pro bowl!














aaaaand an 8-8 record

I understand fans who want to support the team no matter how absurd their front office moves are, but using the team's record to attack Cutler shows an ignorance about football that cannot be solved on a message board.

Northman
08-10-2009, 06:48 PM
We can only dream that Orton is mediocre to the tune of 4500 passing yards and 25 tds.

With a 17-20 w/l record. 54 TD's/37 INT's and 24 Fumbles. Not really that much too toot a horn about especially considering that Culpepper had 28 fumbles in his first 3 seasons as well.

Rabb
08-10-2009, 06:48 PM
I understand fans who want to support the team no matter how absurd their front office moves are, but using the team's record to attack Cutler shows an ignorance about football that cannot be solved on a message board.

very well

using an individual stat that means dick when compared to the only one that matters is about as stupid of an argument that I have seen

besides, wins and losses are generally attached to QBs and coaches...so you may as well take the good with the bad in your numbers

I guess by your standards, having a disappointing season as a team is ok as long as we get some individual accomplishments...is that right?

yeah, I am clearly the ignorant one

DenverBrit
08-10-2009, 06:49 PM
We can only dream that Orton is mediocre to the tune of 4500 passing yards and 25 tds.

Don't short change Jay, he had 18 ints too......oh, and a pro-bowl receiver, a rookie WR sensation, and an O line second to none........all contributing to the 16th ranked scoring offense.

Jay will be tested a little more in Chicago, we'll all have to wait and see how it all shakes out.

Cito Pelon
08-10-2009, 06:53 PM
I understand some of the persistent negativity surrounding Orton on a cerebral level, but it must really suck to be down on your own team. Talk about taking all the fun out of it.

They think they'll be able to score some "I told you so" points later.

colonelbeef
08-10-2009, 06:58 PM
Don't short change Jay, he had 18 ints too......oh, and a pro-bowl receiver, a rookie WR sensation, and an O line second to none........all contributing to the 16th ranked scoring offense.

Jay will be tested a little more in Chicago, we'll all have to wait and see how it all shakes out.

We've gone over these same stats and their veracity over and over on this board, I am not going to bother going over it again.

If your argument is that Kyle Orton is anywhere near the football player that Jay Cutler is, you are quite wrong, and more likely than not will be forcefed this fact slowly and painfully over the next few years alongside Mr. Bowlen and Mr. McDaniels.

Northman
08-10-2009, 07:02 PM
We've gone over these same stats and their veracity over and over on this board, I am not going to bother going over it again.

If your argument is that Kyle Orton is anywhere near the football player that Jay Cutler is, you are quite wrong, and more likely than not will be forcefed this fact slowly and painfully over the next few years alongside Mr. Bowlen and Mr. McDaniels.

Thank you Miss Cleo. I think i'll wait til i actually see some football played this year before throwing in the towel. Hilarious!

DenverBrit
08-10-2009, 07:05 PM
We've gone over these same stats and their veracity over and over on this board, I am not going to bother going over it again.

If your argument is that Kyle Orton is anywhere near the football player that Jay Cutler is, you are quite wrong, and more likely than not will be forcefed this fact slowly and painfully over the next few years alongside Mr. Bowlen and Mr. McDaniels.

No, that's not it.

Players switch teams and improve or get worse.

I suspect Orton will look better in Denver and Cutler won't look as good in Chicago.......mainly because of the scheme and weapons each will have.

BlueCrusher
08-10-2009, 07:20 PM
Ive rarely been accused of being a leghumper. Youre not making any sense.

All you have to do is just hump one leg and you'll get labeled...

colonelbeef
08-10-2009, 07:27 PM
Thank you Miss Cleo. I think i'll wait til i actually see some football played this year before throwing in the towel. Hilarious!

Again, thinking that losing Cutler was an error in judgment doesn't equate to throwing in the towel, supporters of the move have made this straw man argument in order to try to quiet those of us that think it was a mistake.

Rock Chalk
08-10-2009, 07:32 PM
Naw .... I'm allowed to b**** all I want. This offseason has been trying. That being said I can't wait for some real football. Hopefully I'll be eating all kinds of crow by week 2.

I really do think that if Denver is going to have a good year were gonna have to run as much as we had to throw last year. Protect the D and all that good ball control stuff.

Shocking as this maybe, I still don't see Orton as the weakest part of the team ..... that's still held by the DL. I don't hate Orton but I can't see what everyone is so jacked on the guy for.

Surprisingly, had we used that philosophy last year with that piece of **** everyone thinks is a franchise QB we would have actually won the Buffalo game, probably would have won the Raider game too.

I think everyone is excited because there is a new philosophy and a guy in town that is most definately not going to throw a lot of red zone interceptions if, you know, his time in this league has taught us anything. He wont be a douche bag in general and he probably wont cry a whole lot about anything. People are excited that there is a new approach to the offense, a different approach and want to see it, they are also excited that the coaching on the defensive side of the ball is finally at an NFL level so we should be a little better overall than we were last year.

If you are not excited for this upcoming season, I would counter that you are just not a real football fan in general. Honestly, this is one of the most exciting years I can remember, rivaling that of the year Shanny first got here and the year after we won our first superbowl and were looking to repeat.

Rock Chalk
08-10-2009, 07:33 PM
Again, thinking that losing Cutler was an error in judgment doesn't equate to throwing in the towel, supporters of the move have made this straw man argument in order to try to quiet those of us that think it was a mistake.

Look privatebeef, we know you dont like it. We just dont give a **** to hear about it on every single post you make. We get it.
Shut the **** up and move on. Cutler isnt coming back.

Northman
08-10-2009, 07:36 PM
Again, thinking that losing Cutler was an error in judgment doesn't equate to throwing in the towel, supporters of the move have made this straw man argument in order to try to quiet those of us that think it was a mistake.

Could of fooled me dude. Its one thing to think that it might of been a mistake to allow him to be traded and a totally different thing when you continue to predict that the team will fold and die for years without even seeing them play a down yet.

colonelbeef
08-10-2009, 07:36 PM
Look privatebeef, we know you dont like it. We just dont give a **** to hear about it on every single post you make. We get it.
Shut the **** up and move on. Cutler isnt coming back.

I am trying. This place is my therapy.

colonelbeef
08-10-2009, 07:38 PM
Could of fooled me dude. Its one thing to think that it might of been a mistake to allow him to be traded and a totally different thing when you continue to predict that the team will fold and die for years without even seeing them play a down yet.

Not at all. I think it's a setback, and will be something that hurts for a while, but nothing is impossible. I still hold out hope that McDaniels is able to back all of this up. Bowlen gave us Shanahan, maybe he had one more trick up his sleeve.

One of the Belichick disciples is bound to be a good coach. Hopefully it's not Mangini.

footstepsfrom#27
08-10-2009, 07:47 PM
Nothing's less interesting than practice stats for players...good, bad or ugly...they're largely meaningless.

colonelbeef
08-10-2009, 08:02 PM
Nothing's less interesting than practice stats for players...good, bad or ugly...they're largely meaningless.

the one video from the scrimmage was ugly, but I agree, the INT's are meaningless and prove nothing one way or another.

lex
08-10-2009, 08:16 PM
very well

using an individual stat that means dick when compared to the only one that matters is about as stupid of an argument that I have seen

besides, wins and losses are generally attached to QBs and coaches...so you may as well take the good with the bad in your numbers

I guess by your standards, having a disappointing season as a team is ok as long as we get some individual accomplishments...is that right?

yeah, I am clearly the ignorant one


Thats nonsense. The QB doesnt play defense, run or kick the ball. Yet another kid who thinks QBs are prize fighters. LOL

gyldenlove
08-10-2009, 08:25 PM
Thats nonsense. The QB doesnt play defense, run or kick the ball. Yet another kid who thinks QBs are prize fighters. LOL

I still find it funny how a lot of people around here can simultaneously blame Cutler for going 8-8 and think we are better off with a clearly less talented QB. If the QB is so all-important in terms of winning and losing, then how is it ever a good thing that we now have one that is, not as talented?

I may be looking at this too logically, but it seems self-contradictory to me.

Northman
08-10-2009, 08:43 PM
I still find it funny how a lot of people around here can simultaneously blame Cutler for going 8-8 and think we are better off with a clearly less talented QB. If the QB is so all-important in terms of winning and losing, then how is it ever a good thing that we now have one that is, not as talented?

I may be looking at this too logically, but it seems self-contradictory to me.


You mean just like the dolts who already have packed the season in without seeing a game played? Ha!

gyldenlove
08-10-2009, 08:45 PM
You mean just like the dolts who already have packed the season in without seeing a game played? Ha!

I know of more McD-ites who believe we will have a losing season than I know of Cutlerites who believe we will lose.

kamakazi_kal
08-10-2009, 11:18 PM
We've gone over these same stats and their veracity over and over on this board, I am not going to bother going over it again.

If your argument is that Kyle Orton is anywhere near the football player that Jay Cutler is, you are quite wrong, and more likely than not will be forcefed this fact slowly and painfully over the next few years alongside Mr. Bowlen and Mr. McDaniels.

dude ...... he better not be here more then one year...... anybody want to extend this guy right now? He's not the awnser at QB. He's the definition of "stop gap"

I don't expect him to fail but I think our games will be won or lost on the legs of moreno and not the arm of Orton .... He can manage a game but not win it for you. Play to our OL and RB's and bubble screens and all that ...

TailgateNut
08-11-2009, 08:29 AM
Look privatebeef, we know you dont like it. We just dont give a **** to hear about it on every single post you make. We get it.
Shut the **** up and move on. Cutler isnt coming back.

Damn, I'm agreeing with you. He's like that whiney ass bitch that just wont stop crying!

kamakazi_kal
08-11-2009, 08:32 AM
Kind of off topic but does anybody have insider

http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/insider/news/story?id=4389123&action=login&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fnfl %2finsider%2fnews%2fstory%3fid%3d4389123

Royal article

colonelbeef
08-11-2009, 09:40 AM
Damn, I'm agreeing with you. He's like that whiney ass b**** that just wont stop crying!

The only people whining are you two, whining like little children just because somebody disagrees with you.

TailgateNut
08-11-2009, 10:21 AM
The only people whining are you two, whining like little children just because somebody disagrees with you.

That's laughable. You have been crying ever since your lover has been sent into exile (chicago). You can disagree all you want, but the little bitch (not you) is GONE, and regardless, you will have to deal with Orton at the helm, or become a JETS fan (you DO act just like them).

kamakazi_kal
08-11-2009, 10:25 AM
Just cause Orton's at the helm we don't have to like it ....... I know I don't.

The Broncos will win by running this year not by Orton doing anything but hiking and handing off.

misturanderson
08-11-2009, 10:32 AM
Just cause Orton's at the helm we don't have to like it ....... I know I don't.

The Broncos will win by running this year not by Orton doing anything but hiking and handing off.

Good thing you have a crystal ball to see what "WILL" happen with Orton in a completely new, QB friendly system and with good players around him. Why don't you tell me what our record will be so I can use your amazing vision of the future to make some money.

kamakazi_kal
08-11-2009, 10:48 AM
Good thing you have a crystal ball to see what "WILL" happen with Orton in a completely new, QB friendly system and with good players around him. Why don't you tell me what our record will be so I can use your amazing vision of the future to make some money.

I'm thinking if moreno can hit 1200yds 15td denver can go 9 - 7
Like I said I don't think we can win on Orton's arm. We should be playing to our strength ..... OL and RB .... protect that DL.

TailgateNut
08-11-2009, 11:45 AM
I'm thinking if moreno can hit 1200yds 15td denver can go 9 - 7
Like I said I don't think we can win on Orton's arm. We should be playing to our strength ..... OL and RB .... protect that DL.

.

So, to summarize, your crystall ball is filled with opaque liquid.
Maybe we should ask Ms. Cleo (AKA Colonel "I have a Beef")

Hulamau
08-11-2009, 12:24 PM
I know of more McD-ites who believe we will have a losing season than I know of Cutlerites who believe we will lose.

Its quite possible we have a losing season THIS year and McD still gets a solid passing grade all around... and builds momentum for next year and beyond! The last part is almost certainly going to play out .. whether or not we win this year or not.

kamakazi_kal
08-11-2009, 12:33 PM
I would find anything less then 8-8 a fail.

lex
08-11-2009, 12:40 PM
Its quite possible we have a losing season THIS year and McD still gets a solid passing grade all around... and builds momentum for next year and beyond! The last part is almost certainly going to play out .. whether or not we win this year or not.

Its going to get ugly if they do a lot of losing this year. Fans were booing at practice. If that kind of negativity snowballs, who knows how it will end up. Pat may be forced to make a change out of economic necessity.

Northman
08-11-2009, 12:42 PM
Just cause Orton's at the helm we don't have to like it ....... I know I don't.

The Broncos will win by running this year not by Orton doing anything but hiking and handing off.

Honestly, i dont think that is McD's intention. It shouldnt fall on one person to try and win a game. I think he wants balance in all aspects which is something we didnt have last year.

kamakazi_kal
08-11-2009, 12:56 PM
Honestly, i dont think that is McD's intention. It shouldnt fall on one person to try and win a game. I think he wants balance in all aspects which is something we didnt have last year.

I hear ya but it's all adjustments ..... Right now I would not say the QB postion is the strong part of our O ..... Run the ball protect the D and throw short passes and screens. That's the same way Orton was used in Chicago cause that's what he is best at.

Northman
08-11-2009, 12:59 PM
I hear ya but it's all adjustments ..... Right now I would not say the QB postion is the strong part of our O ..... Run the ball protect the D and throw short passes and screens. That's the same way Orton was used in Chicago cause that's what he is best at.

Agreed. Whether or not that will pay off for us i guess we will have to see. But i would assume that McD will look for a future Qb next year.

Mr.Meanie
08-11-2009, 01:07 PM
I would find anything less then 8-8 a fail.

Then you probably didn't like the last 3 years with Cutler at the helm...

Northman
08-11-2009, 01:13 PM
Then you probably didn't like the last 3 years with Cutler at the helm...

I doubt he did but i understand his point.

kamakazi_kal
08-11-2009, 01:14 PM
Then you probably didn't like the last 3 years with Cutler at the helm...

I thought pulling plummer when shanny did was bad timing ..... I thought cutler was progressing in his second year. I also think last years team as a whole was just bad but I thought the offense was on the verge of a breakout.

Tell ya the truth I think cutler throwing as much as he did last year hurt us and will help chicago this year ..... total suck.

rastaman
08-11-2009, 01:21 PM
Good thing you have a crystal ball to see what "WILL" happen with Orton in a completely new, QB friendly system and with good players around him. Why don't you tell me what our record will be so I can use your amazing vision of the future to make some money.

All I know is, Orton is in a QB friendly system with a HC who knows offensive X's and O's, talent at the WR, TE, and Slot rcvrs and the top RB out of the draft, and a FB that can get the tough yardage! Orton should have his BREAKOUT SEASON and first Pro Bowl appearance......plain and simple!!!

rastaman
08-11-2009, 01:43 PM
I thought pulling plummer when shanny did was bad timing ..... I thought cutler was progressing in his second year. I also think last years team as a whole was just bad but I thought the offense was on the verge of a breakout.

Tell ya the truth I think cutler throwing as much as he did last year hurt us and will help chicago this year ..... total suck.

Thats what I'm thinking. Bowlen pulled the plug on Shanny about a year or two too early. A healthy Pittman, Torrain, and Hillis RBBC all season long in 2008 the Broncos win 11-10 games, the AFC west and don't loose their 3 game lead to the Chargers, and Denver makes the playoffs and wins a game or two. Thus giving the gutless Bowlen no other choice but to honor the remaining 3 years Shanny had on his contract.

Oh well chalk up everything that transpired during the 2008 season with 7 RB's suffering season ending injuries, the porous Defense, the loosing the 3 game lead to the Chargers in December and the AFC west title, the firing of Shanny, the hiring of McDisaster, and trading Cutler to Chi-Town as DESTINY!!!

oubronco
08-11-2009, 01:46 PM
even if they win 10-11 games they would've gotten punked in the playoffs with that pop warner defense

Hulamau
08-11-2009, 01:49 PM
Just cause Orton's at the helm we don't have to like it ....... I know I don't.

The Broncos will win by running this year not by Orton doing anything but hiking and handing off.

Boy, are you in for a surprise!

Hulamau
08-11-2009, 02:04 PM
Can't wait for the fun to start Friday!

Northman
08-11-2009, 02:17 PM
Can't wait for the fun to start Friday!

Do we know if that is going to be televised outside of the Denver or west coast area?

kamakazi_kal
08-11-2009, 02:28 PM
Boy, are you in for a surprise!

Hey, I'm the first to say I hope I'm wrong ..... I've just seen enough of Orton to remain unimpressed at this point. I don't want to rehash all the same crap again. It's just my opinion of the guy even before he was a Bronco.

TailgateNut
08-11-2009, 03:09 PM
Hey, I'm the first to say I hope I'm wrong ..... I've just seen enough of Orton to remain unimpressed at this point. I don't want to rehash all the same crap again. It's just my opinion of the guy even before he was a Bronco.

If you say it often enough, you'll start believing it.:spit:

I can only assume you followed the Bears last year, or had Orton on your fantasy team.

kamakazi_kal
08-11-2009, 03:26 PM
If you say it often enough, you'll start believing it.:spit:

I can only assume you followed the Bears last year, or had Orton on your fantasy team.

I had forte. I saw most of their games.

elsid13
08-11-2009, 03:52 PM
Do we know if that is going to be televised outside of the Denver or west coast area?

It's live on the NFL Channel at 2200

Northman
08-11-2009, 03:54 PM
It's live on the NFL Channel at 2200

Sweeeeeeet.

Greybeard
08-11-2009, 03:56 PM
Good job Orton!


Hey, somebody had to say it. He throws two INT's in a practice and everybody jumps his **** but he does well and nobody says anything, double standard, whatever.

QFT + rep


People seem to draw their negative conclusions, not from investigating and
studying a player, but sitting in front of their computers and deciding they don't
like the player. I guess they think they sound knowledgeable . . .

-----

jhns
08-11-2009, 04:36 PM
QFT + rep


People seem to draw their negative conclusions, not from investigating and
studying a player, but sitting in front of their computers and deciding they don't
like the player. I guess they think they sound knowledgeable . . .

-----

So you are saying that after studying Orton, a smart fan comes away thinking he is the one to turn around a team? The ones that "sound knowledgeable" are the ones that think Orton is the answer?

I'm sorry but Bronco fans have completely lost it.

TheReverend
08-11-2009, 04:45 PM
it's live on the nfl channel at 2200

2200 pm!?!?!?!

Rock Chalk
08-11-2009, 04:54 PM
So you are saying that after studying Orton, a smart fan comes away thinking he is the one to turn around a team? The ones that "sound knowledgeable" are the ones that think Orton is the answer?

I'm sorry but Bronco fans have completely lost it.

Wow, way to completely miss the point of that post. Its like you dont even bother with reading comprehension and instead sit behind your little keyboard pounding away like the chimp you are.

Well done goofball.

DenverBrit
08-11-2009, 04:56 PM
2200 pm!?!?!?!

10pm

Northman
08-11-2009, 04:57 PM
Wow, way to completely miss the point of that post. Its like you dont even bother with reading comprehension and instead sit behind your little keyboard pounding away like the chimp you are.

Well done goofball.

Ha!

Greybeard
08-11-2009, 05:08 PM
Wow, way to completely miss the point of that post. Its like you dont even bother with reading comprehension and instead sit behind your little keyboard pounding away like the chimp you are.

Well done goofball.

Thanks. But I think jhns just identified himself there . . . LOL

-----

TheReverend
08-11-2009, 05:30 PM
QFT + rep


People seem to draw their negative conclusions, not from investigating and
studying a player, but sitting in front of their computers and deciding they don't
like the player. I guess they think they sound knowledgeable . . .

-----

Meh.

I don't think he'll be any good. That being said, boo'ing the practice was silly, but so was complaining about him being boo'ed. It's part of sports. I won't think he blows because he had a ****ty practice or even a pre-season game, but I also won't think I'm wrong and that he'll be good or great from one either.

We'll see how he plays in September.

Inkana7
08-11-2009, 06:25 PM
Youre wasting your time with that guy. He is the biggest mouth-breathing leghumper there is...second to Popps.

:thumbsup:

Greybeard
08-11-2009, 07:00 PM
it's called being inconsistent and mediocre. Somedays he will look decent, others he will look terrible. Kyle Orton is an inconsistent, mediocre football player. It's the reason he was benched for an equally crappy player in Rex Grossman.

This is no surprise whatsoever, and I advise you to be objective instead of pinning your heart and hopes on one 7v7 scrimmage.

That's good advice. I hope you take it to heart.

I'm not concerned about why someone else benched Orton, other than noting
that he was a first-year player at the time (and recalling that one John Elway
was benched in his rookie year for Steve DeBerg).

What impresses me is what I see with my own eyes. From that perspective,
after studying 64 different highlights (and lowlights), observing several games,
and reading and hearing everything I could get my hands on about Orton, I
have come to the conclusion he is a pretty good quarterback.

Oh, and McDaniels has made essentially the same observations. Have you
considered calling him in person to straighten him out on this?

-----

TheReverend
08-11-2009, 08:10 PM
That's good advice. I hope you take it to heart.

I'm not concerned about why someone else benched Orton, other than noting
that he was a first-year player at the time (and recalling that one John Elway
was benched in his rookie year for Steve DeBerg).

What impresses me is what I see with my own eyes. From that perspective,
after studying 64 different highlights (and lowlights), observing several games,
and reading and hearing everything I could get my hands on about Orton, I
have come to the conclusion he is a pretty good quarterback.

Oh, and McDaniels has made essentially the same observations. Have you
considered calling him in person to straighten him out on this?

-----

Shame Chicago didn't feel the same way... and I'm pretty sure they have a lot more information on him than, oh... everyone else outside of his mother.

kamakazi_kal
08-11-2009, 08:12 PM
The guy is just plain average. How you can argue otherwise is a mystery. He's not horrible but he is .... average.

Greybeard
08-11-2009, 08:21 PM
Shame Chicago didn't feel the same way... and I'm pretty sure they have a lot more information on him than, oh... everyone else outside of his mother.

As I implied: I don't care what they thought of him. All I care about is what
they think of him in Denver, where he is now. And those in Denver have
expressed that they are high on him . . . you know, McDaniels, who is known
for his quarterbacks. (Tell me, what sort of notoriety did the Chicago staff
have, concerning quarterbacks?)

Other than that, all I care about is what I've seen. I don't care if they know in
Chicago how far he can piss and how many times he does in a day. All I know is
that I went from a fairly low opinion of Orton to a positive one from all the
research I did on him.

Don't take my word for it. Do some of your own research. But I don't believe
you will . . .

-----

Northman
08-11-2009, 08:36 PM
Shame Chicago didn't feel the same way... and I'm pretty sure they have a lot more information on him than, oh... everyone else outside of his mother.

You could also say that about Cutler.

kamakazi_kal
08-11-2009, 08:56 PM
ha ha .... what the hell do you expect mcd to say "uhh dude blows and since we have simms and a rookie. So since they all kind of suck, I might as well call him the starter"

It's all fluff .... you won't even really be able to tell until game 1 vs. cinn.
Preseason is all simple paterns. Hell it's shocking to see someone run a post in the preseason.

I mean really everything is positive and upbeat right now. It is in every training camp.We havent won or lost anything. Offseason is nothing but educated guesses on the part of the fans.

TheReverend
08-11-2009, 09:03 PM
You could also say that about Cutler.

Could I? Is that why it was a straight up trade?






Oh wait....................

watermock
08-11-2009, 09:16 PM
Agreed. Whether or not that will pay off for us i guess we will have to see. But i would assume that McD will look for a future Qb next year.

That's unlikely with his pet project Terry Bradshaw and trading a probable top 10 pick.

ScottXray
08-11-2009, 10:12 PM
We are really fortunate the He Who Shall Not Be Named made the pro-bowl last year (even though he wouldn't have if the voting had been later.)

So we traded a third year QB who was a "pro-bowler" and has all the earmarks of a great future. And we got 2 firsts, Orton and a third for He Who Shall Not Be Named and a 5th.

Luckily, Lovie must have missed the tape on that game because He Who Shall Not Be Named shat the bed again and forced a throw under pressure that put the AFC team in a hopeless situation and out of contention to win. He looked just like a a rookie thrown to the wolves in a pre-season game. By the way he also was ineffective, and also locked onto BM, JUST LIKE HE DID ALL LAST YEAR!

Now its a bit of a difficult situation, because, after all, the fans want to see the QB drop back and deliver crisp passes. And He Who Shall Not Be Named probably was still upset over Shanahan being gone and so understandeably couldn't perform well. Maybe his blood sugar was bad. Maybe he was Hung over.

It remains to be seen if the Bears got the better of this deal. If there is justice it will not be long and we will know who was the team that made the smarter move. My bet is on Denver.

TailgateNut
08-12-2009, 07:16 AM
2200 pm!?!?!?!

You can always tell who never served in the military.:~ohyah!:

Bronco Boy
08-12-2009, 07:57 AM
I think Orton proved he could be an average QB in Chicago's system, which not many QB's (if any) have done since Lovie took the helm. That evidence points to him having a pretty good couple years with us until Brandstater is ready. That being said, I'm looking forward to seeing this team play on Friday, sounds like the "starters" will get a lot of playing time.

alkemical
08-12-2009, 07:59 AM
I wouldn't hold everything on Brandstater either. Chances are, McD is going to always take a late round QB - much like we did with running backs before.

misturanderson
08-12-2009, 08:03 AM
I would guess that with the BPA draft approach, we could easily get a new QB in the top half of the next draft unless Orton far exceeds even the most optimistic of expectations. There are a LOT of good QBs that should be entering the draft next year.

Drek
08-12-2009, 08:12 AM
Shame Chicago didn't feel the same way... and I'm pretty sure they have a lot more information on him than, oh... everyone else outside of his mother.

Funny that you think Lovie Smith and co. with some extra camp experience on Orton are better judges of a QB than Josh McDaniels, who's offenses are always the elite of the NFL.

FYI, Lovie Smith is the same guy who kept trying to give the starting spot in Chicago to Rex Grossman, to the point where the best commitment they ever made to giving him real competition was signing Griese and drafting a 4th round QB (Orton), the later of whom eventually took his job.

Drek
08-12-2009, 08:15 AM
I would guess that with the BPA draft approach, we could easily get a new QB in the top half of the next draft unless Orton far exceeds even the most optimistic of expectations. There are a LOT of good QBs that should be entering the draft next year.

Depends what you think the most optimistic expectations are. I'm expecting a QB rating somewhere between 85-90 with a chance for a 90-95 about as likely as 80-85.

This is the perfect offense for him, he's got a standout OL, he's got more weapons than any other QB in the league. Unless major injuries start cropping up he's got the potential to run this offense like a machine and absolutely kill people.

jhns
08-12-2009, 08:53 AM
Wow, way to completely miss the point of that post. Its like you dont even bother with reading comprehension and instead sit behind your little keyboard pounding away like the chimp you are.

Well done goofball.

So why don't you tell me how that reads any other way than what I said. It sure looks to me like it says anyone that doesn't think Orton is the answer obviously didn't do their homework. You internet tough guys are saying that people with negative opinions don't know what they are talking about. I think you lack an understanding of this language if you see anything else.

Stop letting your panties get all twisted and realize that it takes a pretty big homer to think Orton is anything above below average.

Greybeard
08-12-2009, 08:57 AM
So why don't you tell me how that reads any other way than what I said. It sure looks to me like it says anyone that doesn't think Orton is the answer obviously didn't do their homework. You internet tough guys are saying that people with negative opinions don't know what they are talking about. I think you lack an understanding of this language if you see anything else.

Stop letting your panties get all twisted and realize that it takes a pretty big homer to think Orton is anything above below average.

Next time you talk to McDaniels, you tell him what a pretty big homer he is. http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh256/AZDynamics/Smilies/thcoffee.gif

-----

DarkHorse
08-12-2009, 09:01 AM
2 days until we see our Broncos :thumbsup:

jhns
08-12-2009, 09:09 AM
Next time you talk to McDaniels, you tell him what a pretty big homer he is. http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh256/AZDynamics/Smilies/thcoffee.gif

-----

Who says mcdaniels thinks he is above average? He asked for two firsts and a third to trade orton for cutler. That isn't exactly high praise for the guy we got.

Rashomon
08-12-2009, 09:18 AM
Funny that you think Lovie Smith and co. with some extra camp experience on Orton are better judges of a QB than Josh McDaniels, who's offenses are always the elite of the NFL.

FYI, Lovie Smith is the same guy who kept trying to give the starting spot in Chicago to Rex Grossman, to the point where the best commitment they ever made to giving him real competition was signing Griese and drafting a 4th round QB (Orton), the later of whom eventually took his job.

Do you really think that everyone in the NFL outside of McDaniels is an idiot? Smith spent 4 full seasons with Orton, so I would say he would have a better feel for his capabilities than McDaniels, who probably never seriously studied Orton until Bowlen told them to trade Cutler. What makes McDaniels such a great judge of QB's anyway. Because he coached Brady and Cassel? He had nothing to do with the original evaluation of them. If Orton is the answer, has Denver started working on a long-term contract for him? If he isn't re-signed, do you feel good with McDaniels other choices, Simms and Brandstetter at QB for 2010?

kamakazi_kal
08-12-2009, 09:53 AM
Next time you talk to McDaniels, you tell him what a pretty big homer he is. http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh256/AZDynamics/Smilies/thcoffee.gif

-----

Man, I hate to tell you this but their are no good free agent QB's to be had ... McD is stuck with Orton this year no matter what. It's not as if he would openly admit Orton is just OK ..... I'd rather have Jeff Garcia .... and he's a frickin Raider.

kamakazi_kal
08-12-2009, 09:55 AM
Who says mcdaniels thinks he is above average? He asked for two firsts and a third to trade orton for cutler. That isn't exactly high praise for the guy we got.

Fact is Mcd had to get some QB in any trade involving Cutler ..... HAD TO. It may just be he liked Orton more then Cambell and I would have to agree with him.

misturanderson
08-12-2009, 09:56 AM
Depends what you think the most optimistic expectations are. I'm expecting a QB rating somewhere between 85-90 with a chance for a 90-95 about as likely as 80-85.

This is the perfect offense for him, he's got a standout OL, he's got more weapons than any other QB in the league. Unless major injuries start cropping up he's got the potential to run this offense like a machine and absolutely kill people.

I guess if he pulls that (85+ rating) off while throwing over 20TDs (which I think would be a requirement for not at least considering a new QB), we might not look for a 1st round QB, but we still might look for a mid-rounder to replace Simms with how terrible it sounds like he's been.

I really have no idea what to expect from Orton. He does have great weapons, especially compared to what he had in Chicago. He also likes to take more risks than I think he gets credit for, which could bite him in the ass. He's shown flashes of being a good QB, but it's the consistency that could hurt him.

I certainly won't claim that he is an average QB at best considering how well he played at the beginning of last year. I think his ceiling would be similar to Warner in St. Louis or last year, which would be amazing. Hopefully, like Warner, he can be great with great weapons around him. I would say that the talent at our offensive skill positions and o-line compare favorably to the 1999 Rams.

I can't wait till we actually get to see what he's got against a different team.

kamakazi_kal
08-12-2009, 09:59 AM
I guess if he pulls that (85+ rating) off while throwing over 20TDs (which I think would be a requirement for not looking at a QB), we might not look for a 1st round QB, but we still might look for a mid-rounder to replace Simms with how terrible it sounds like he's been.

I really have no idea what to expect from Orton. He does have great weapons, especially compared to what he had in Chicago. He also likes to take more risks than I think he gets credit for, which could bite him in the ass. He's shown flashes of being a good QB, but it's the consistency that could hurt him. I can't wait till we actually get to see what he's got against a different team.

yeah .... this. Unlike most everyone else here, I take the "he's gotta prove it to me approach" none of this system this recievers that --- show me Orton.

Greybeard
08-12-2009, 10:02 AM
Man, I hate to tell you this but their are no good free agent QB's to be had ... McD is stuck with Orton this year no matter what. It's not as if he would openly admit Orton is just OK ..... I'd rather have Jeff Garcia .... and he's a frickin Raider.

That's fine, but you are not McDaniels (fortunately). I guess you missed that
McDaniels considered Orton the key to the Cutler trade (this is common
knowledge among those familiar with the terms of the trade), that he passed
up a potentially better deal (in terms of draft position) with Washington and
that he opted for Chicago over Cleveland.

McDaniels likes Orton. He has made that clear. And, after hours and hours of
study and research on Orton, so do I now, even though I did not especially
like him before I launched into it.

-----

TailgateNut
08-12-2009, 10:10 AM
Man, I hate to tell you this but their are no good free agent QB's to be had ... McD is stuck with Orton this year no matter what. It's not as if he would openly admit Orton is just OK ..... I'd rather have Jeff Garcia .... and he's a frickin Raider.


You know what Kamakazee Dude. I once hired an average guy for avg salary and he turned out to be one of the best "bang for the buck" additions I ever made. I also fired a general foreman who had worked for us for years making BIG DOLLARS, BIG BENEFITS,CO VEHICLE.
I don't regret that move to thid day.

So, why don't you give us and yourself a ****ing break with your constant "Negative Nancy BS", and wait and see. If you're right then shove some damn crow down my throat. I'll be glad to acknowledge that you're the next best thing to Lex and his draft takes.:giggle:

misturanderson
08-12-2009, 10:21 AM
yeah .... this. Unlike most everyone else here, I take the "he's gotta prove it to me approach" none of this system this recievers that --- show me Orton.

What did Kurt Warner look like when he was in NY without elite recievers/o-line compared to what he looked/looks like in the rams/cardinals' elite offenses? Kurt Warner in a good offense is a perfect example of what people are thinking Orton could be capable of. Not saying he is capable of that, but I would say Orton and Warner's physical skills are pretty comparable. And our offense outside of the QB position is certainly comparable, talent-wise, to the 1999 rams' offense and maybe better overall than last year's cardinals.

If Orton can get his completion percentage into the 60s and get his TD:Int ratio above 1.5 this offense will be explosive.

He's still a young guy, there is no reason to pretend that he can't improve while Jay Cutler can.

worm
08-12-2009, 10:31 AM
McDaniels likes Orton. He has made that clear. And, after hours and hours of
study and research on Orton, so do I now, even though I did not especially
like him before I launched into it.

-----

If you spent as much time studying and researching Orton as you spent telling us you did in this thread, then I really am impressed.

Drek
08-12-2009, 10:49 AM
Do you really think that everyone in the NFL outside of McDaniels is an idiot?
When it comes to grading out QBs I'd say that Lovie Smith has been pretty idiotic, to the point where after Orton as a rookie managed a more consistent and productive offense than Grossman had for him to date, he benched Orton ASAP when Grossman was healthy again.

Smith spent 4 full seasons with Orton, so I would say he would have a better feel for his capabilities than McDaniels, who probably never seriously studied Orton until Bowlen told them to trade Cutler.
Again you're betting on time and proximity being enough for Smith to see something that McDaniels can't. That just isn't the case, as McDaniels is a far superior talent with regards to QB evaluations. By your argument Vinny Testaverde is one of the top 5 QBs of all time because he's got more experience than almost any other QB ever.

What makes McDaniels such a great judge of QB's anyway. Because he coached Brady and Cassel? He had nothing to do with the original evaluation of them.
Both of them say he played a vital role in their careers taking the next step, so I'll take the comments and evaluations of McDaniels' skills as it pertains to coaching and developing the QB position from real NFL QBs, one of whom is arguably the best of his generation, over the pessimistic view of casual fans.

If Orton is the answer, has Denver started working on a long-term contract for him? If he isn't re-signed, do you feel good with McDaniels other choices, Simms and Brandstetter at QB for 2010?
Because they don't need to? What if they gave him a big deal and in week one he got sacked, tore his rotator cuff, and could never throw a football well again? You never know and its an unnecessary risk we don't need to take. If Orton tears the league up then you just give him a new deal then. You might need to pay a slight premium, but his agent isn't going to let you in long term as it is now when he's got the potential to really break out in this system with our offensive weapons.

TheReverend
08-12-2009, 11:13 AM
Does anyone know if Greybeard spent hours and hours of research and study time on Kyle Orton?

kamakazi_kal
08-12-2009, 11:33 AM
That's fine, but you are not McDaniels (fortunately). I guess you missed that
McDaniels considered Orton the key to the Cutler trade (this is common
knowledge among those familiar with the terms of the trade), that he passed
up a potentially better deal (in terms of draft position) with Washington and
that he opted for Chicago over Cleveland.

McDaniels likes Orton. He has made that clear. And, after hours and hours of
study and research on Orton, so do I now, even though I did not especially
like him before I launched into it.

-----

Well like I said he HAD to get a starting QB in that trade. If you consider that we traded away a potential top 10 first rounder next year and have many a rumor swirling that Bowlen is trying to cut costs it shouldnt suprise that we took a potential lower first rounder ...... that is the one we kept for next year.

As for washington I already stated that I thought Orton was better then Cambell

kamakazi_kal
08-12-2009, 11:37 AM
You know what Kamakazee Dude. I once hired an average guy for avg salary and he turned out to be one of the best "bang for the buck" additions I ever made. I also fired a general foreman who had worked for us for years making BIG DOLLARS, BIG BENEFITS,CO VEHICLE.
I don't regret that move to thid day.

So, why don't you give us and yourself a ****ing break with your constant "Negative Nancy BS", and wait and see. If you're right then shove some damn crow down my throat. I'll be glad to acknowledge that you're the next best thing to Lex and his draft takes.:giggle:

ha ha dude you all are the one's getting your panties in a bunch. I simply said that I think Orton is just average I never said he wasn't servicable or couldn't do the job. I'm simply saying that some of the expections are kind of out there like 25+ TD's and 90%+ comp.

I just said I think we will win but with the running game.

Drek
08-12-2009, 12:49 PM
ha ha dude you all are the one's getting your panties in a bunch. I simply said that I think Orton is just average I never said he wasn't servicable or couldn't do the job. I'm simply saying that some of the expections are kind of out there like 25+ TD's and 90%+ comp.

I just said I think we will win but with the running game.

Who's expecting a 90%+ completion rate?

And Orton has been just average, to this point. He's been just average in a system with a poor OL, few if any good weapons, and an offensive system that goes against his strengths as a quarterback. He's now going to a system that plays to his strengths, with a good OL, and with multiple receiving options.

The assumption that an average QB in Chicago = an average QB in Denver despite all those massive changes is itself completely wrong. When you add in factors like personal growth and superior coaching (McDaniels is unquestionably a better QB coach than anyone Chicago has had in decades) and it becomes an even harder argument to make that his previous showings will be very reliable at all as indicators of future performance.

rastaman
08-12-2009, 12:51 PM
even if they win 10-11 games they would've gotten punked in the playoffs with that pop warner defense

I doubt that very seriously b/c a healthy Pittman, Torain, and Hillis sharing the load in the playoffs would have meant the Broncos could have played clockcontrol thus protecting the pop warner defense and keeping opposing teams offense on the sidelines. Also, b/c of our running game, it would have opened up passing lanes and opportunities for our receivers and Cutler.

Simply put.....Denver would have been a difficult match up!

Drek
08-12-2009, 12:59 PM
I doubt that very seriously b/c a healthy Pittman, Torain, and Hillis sharing the load in the playoffs would have meant the Broncos could have played clockcontrol thus protecting the pop warner defense and keeping opposing teams offense on the sidelines. Also, b/c of our running game, it would have opened up passing lanes and opportunities for our receivers and Cutler.

Simply put.....Denver would have been a difficult match up!

Not really.

We would've drawn the Colts in the first round. Peyton Manning owns every defense that can't put heavy pressure on him, and ours couldn't. Cutler was 50/50 great v. below average last season, so you got a coin flip that we even stay in the game long enough to establish the running game. Then you're hoping that our offense can score a touchdown nearly every posession, because I'd be surprised if our D could have stopped the Colts basically at all with how badly they where playing last year and how hot Manning was down the stretch.

In all likelihood we show up, we have some solid drives, Manning keeps putting up TDs, and by halftime most of our roster has quit on us. Kind of like every other loss Manning handed us in our recent playoff run ins with the Colts.

azbroncfan
08-12-2009, 01:12 PM
I doubt that very seriously b/c a healthy Pittman, Torain, and Hillis sharing the load in the playoffs would have meant the Broncos could have played clockcontrol thus protecting the pop warner defense and keeping opposing teams offense on the sidelines. Also, b/c of our running game, it would have opened up passing lanes and opportunities for our receivers and Cutler.

Simply put.....Denver would have been a difficult match up!

Are you serious? Colts, SD, Pitt, Tennessee would of all loved to play Denver last year and would of shoved the ball down that John Engelberger led sorry excuse for assembly of football players to another first round Blowout.

azbroncfan
08-12-2009, 01:16 PM
He didn't run that offense last season. I spent the whole year screaming for a slant route. It was vertical passing and square routes. One of the reasons I hated Bates to be honest, I like shanahan offenses, and last year was no shanahan offense.

Shanny was the leader and basically the Captain of the team that had largest say in personel and scheme decisions. He gets all the credit and all the blame because he is the guy in charge and that comes with the territory. Since he was the HC last year that was his offense as he oversaw and allowed it.

rastaman
08-12-2009, 01:16 PM
We are really fortunate the He Who Shall Not Be Named made the pro-bowl last year (even though he wouldn't have if the voting had been later.)

So we traded a third year QB who was a "pro-bowler" and has all the earmarks of a great future. And we got 2 firsts, Orton and a third for He Who Shall Not Be Named and a 5th.

Luckily, Lovie must have missed the tape on that game because He Who Shall Not Be Named shat the bed again and forced a throw under pressure that put the AFC team in a hopeless situation and out of contention to win. He looked just like a a rookie thrown to the wolves in a pre-season game. By the way he also was ineffective, and also locked onto BM, JUST LIKE HE DID ALL LAST YEAR!

Now its a bit of a difficult situation, because, after all, the fans want to see the QB drop back and deliver crisp passes. And He Who Shall Not Be Named probably was still upset over Shanahan being gone and so understandeably couldn't perform well. Maybe his blood sugar was bad. Maybe he was Hung over.

It remains to be seen if the Bears got the better of this deal. If there is justice it will not be long and we will know who was the team that made the smarter move. My bet is on Denver.

Denver only made the smarter move if they can take the draft choices they received for Cutler and draft another franchise QB!!! Everyone knows (including McD) that Orton is not the long term solution and is a mere stop gap solution. And of course the jury is still out from a historical stand point whether a 30 something year old HC is ready to make the transition from "All World" offensive coordinator to a new dynamic HC juggling all the intangbles and problems, pressures of managing an NFL team.

azbroncfan
08-12-2009, 01:18 PM
Look privatebeef, we know you dont like it. We just dont give a **** to hear about it on every single post you make. We get it.
Shut the **** up and move on. Cutler isnt coming back.

Exactly great post.

rastaman
08-12-2009, 01:27 PM
Depends what you think the most optimistic expectations are. I'm expecting a QB rating somewhere between 85-90 with a chance for a 90-95 about as likely as 80-85.

This is the perfect offense for him, he's got a standout OL, he's got more weapons than any other QB in the league. Unless major injuries start cropping up he's got the potential to run this offense like a machine and absolutely kill people.

Injuries are part of the game! Can't use it as an excuse. If Orton is served "Lemons" he's got to find a way to make "Lemonade".

Afterall, Cutler made the pro bowl despite enduring playing with a totally decimated running attack where 7 RB's all suffered season ending injuries.

misturanderson
08-12-2009, 01:31 PM
Denver only made the smarter move if they can take the draft choices they received for Cutler and draft another franchise QB!!! Everyone knows (including McD) that Orton is not the long term solution and is a mere stop gap solution. And of course the jury is still out from a historical stand point whether a 30 something year old HC is ready to make the transition from "All World" offensive coordinator to a new dynamic HC juggling all the intangbles and problems, pressures of managing an NFL team.

Not all "franchise" QBs are taken in the top 10 of the first round. A point that seems to be lost on many.

Mr. Elway
08-12-2009, 01:32 PM
I doubt that very seriously b/c a healthy Pittman, Torain, and Hillis sharing the load in the playoffs would have meant the Broncos could have played clockcontrol thus protecting the pop warner defense and keeping opposing teams offense on the sidelines. Also, b/c of our running game, it would have opened up passing lanes and opportunities for our receivers and Cutler.

Simply put.....Denver would have been a difficult match up!

It must have taken a serious bong sesh to come up with this little fantasy. :~ohyah!:

ScottXray
08-12-2009, 01:35 PM
Not really.

We would've drawn the Colts in the first round. Peyton Manning owns every defense that can't put heavy pressure on him, and ours couldn't. Cutler was 50/50 great v. below average last season, so you got a coin flip that we even stay in the game long enough to establish the running game. Then you're hoping that our offense can score a touchdown nearly every posession, because I'd be surprised if our D could have stopped the Colts basically at all with how badly they where playing last year and how hot Manning was down the stretch.

In all likelihood we show up, we have some solid drives, Manning keeps putting up TDs, and by halftime most of our roster has quit on us. Kind of like every other loss Manning handed us in our recent playoff run ins with the Colts.

Good call. We HAD a playoff game last year...week 17 against a 7-8 team , and they punked us 52-23. OK we didn't have a run game then.
But, our run game was not good enough for us to win shootouts, and our defense was so bad it guaranteed that every team we faced would have scored 30 +. We only won one game like that and it took Hoculi to do it.
Our Offense was only really good the first three weks , and then fell off. Agaisnt most every good defense we faced we had trouble scoring.

rastaman
08-12-2009, 01:38 PM
Are you serious? Colts, SD, Pitt, Tennessee would of all loved to play Denver last year and would of shoved the ball down that John Engelberger led sorry excuse for assembly of football players to another first round Blowout.

How so! According to you and your Ilk, Denver has one of the best OL in the NFL. Well if thats the case, aren't great OL's going to open up holes and lanes for the running game (Hillis, Pittman and Hillis) as well as provide enough protection for last years pro bowl QB to exploit the passing attack with some of the best WR's in the game (Royale and Bmarsh)! The Colts, SD, Pitt, and Tenn all would have had problems containing Hillis, Pittman and Hillis running with the zone blocking shcheme. Then these teams would have had to deal with Denvers passing attack with a QB in Cutler that could make all throws and stretch the field. In other words the defenses Denver would have faced in the playoffs would have had to play honest and not cheat!

rastaman
08-12-2009, 01:44 PM
Not all "franchise" QBs are taken in the top 10 of the first round. A point that seems to be lost on many.

True! However, this franchise ain't going nowhere w/o a Franchise Qb to build around and Orton and Simms AIN'T THE ANSWER.

Orton = Stop Gap Quarterback! Like Brian Greisse, Steve Deberg, Craig Morton, and Grosman!

rastaman
08-12-2009, 01:47 PM
Good call. We HAD a playoff game last year...week 17 against a 7-8 team , and they punked us 52-23. OK we didn't have a run game then.
But, our run game was not good enough for us to win shootouts, and our defense was so bad it guaranteed that every team we faced would have scored 30 +. We only won one game like that and it took Hoculi to do it.
Our Offense was only really good the first three weks , and then fell off. Agaisnt most every good defense we faced we had trouble scoring.

So how do you explain away how the offense fell off after the 3rd week, if Denver had/has one of the best OL's in the NFL. Doesn't everything start and end offensively with the OL?

azbroncfan
08-12-2009, 01:52 PM
How so! According to you and your Ilk, Denver has one of the best OL in the NFL. Well if thats the case, aren't great OL's going to open up holes and lanes for the running game (Hillis, Pittman and Hillis) as well as provide enough protection for last years pro bowl QB to exploit the passing attack with some of the best WR's in the game (Royale and Bmarsh)! The Colts, SD, Pitt, and Tenn all would have had problems containing Hillis, Pittman and Hillis running with the zone blocking shcheme. Then these teams would have had to deal with Denvers passing attack with a QB in Cutler that could make all throws and stretch the field. In other words the defenses Denver would have faced in the playoffs would have had to play honest and not cheat!
Because Denver couldn't even do that to Oakland or KC. The offense was in the middle of the pack. Don't give me the total yardage argument either because pts are all that matter. All the teams I listed would of ran for over 200 yds taking Denver's running game(which wasn't that great anyway) right out of the game and let Cutler throw for 400 yds and 5 INT's. With your argument the Colts should have 4 or 5 SB's right now.

SoDak Bronco
08-12-2009, 01:54 PM
So how do you explain away how the offense fell off after the 3rd week, if Denver had/has one of the best OL's in the NFL. Doesn't everything start and end offensively with the OL?

You need a QB that doesn't make mistakes in the red zone and healthy rb's which we struggled with both last year.

rastaman
08-12-2009, 02:01 PM
Good call. We HAD a playoff game last year...week 17 against a 7-8 team , and they punked us 52-23. OK we didn't have a run game then.
But, our run game was not good enough for us to win shootouts, and our defense was so bad it guaranteed that every team we faced would have scored 30 +. We only won one game like that and it took Hoculi to do it.
Our Offense was only really good the first three weks , and then fell off. Agaisnt most every good defense we faced we had trouble scoring.

Who would you rather have in the backfield in a must win game to win the AFC West Title: Selvyn Young and Tatum Bell or Pittman, Hillis, and Torain?

I can see SD shutting down the likes of Young and Tatum.....but the Chargers shutting down a healthy (RBBC) Pittman, Torain, and Hillis (PTH) would have been highly unlikely b/c the Chargers would have had to deal with Cutler's passing ability and our WR's as well. And Denver would have moved the chains with PTH (eating up clock time) thus keeping the SD offense on the sidelines and preventing the Chargers from putting up 55 points.

In fact how confidence would Orangemane fans be this season if Orton had to depend on the likes of Selyvan Young and Tatum Bell anytime during the 09 season b/c Jordan, Moreno, Buckhalter etc all suffered season ending injuries over the course of the 09 season......wouldn't be pretty would it!

rastaman
08-12-2009, 02:04 PM
You need a QB that doesn't make mistakes in the red zone and healthy rb's which we struggled with both last year.

Sure you do. But also, your starting Qb in his second year needs a running attack he can depend on and thats not depleted by injuries to help take the pressure off him in the Red Zone. Besides, opposing teams knew Cutler had no viable running options.....so defenses cheated and forced Cutler into bad throws.

kamakazi_kal
08-12-2009, 02:08 PM
Sure you do. But also, your starting Qb in his second year needs a running attack he can depend on and thats not depleted by injuries to help take the pressure off him in the Red Zone. Besides, opposing teams knew Cutler had no viable running options.....so defenses cheated and forced Cutler into bad throws.

Don't bother you won't make any headway ..... It's the "golden loads" thing from a previous post.

DBroncos4life
08-12-2009, 02:09 PM
Don't bother you won't make any headway ..... It's the "golden loads" thing from a previous post.

Some fans just McLove it....

rastaman
08-12-2009, 02:11 PM
Because Denver couldn't even do that to Oakland or KC. The offense was in the middle of the pack. Don't give me the total yardage argument either because pts are all that matter. All the teams I listed would of ran for over 200 yds taking Denver's running game(which wasn't that great anyway) right out of the game and let Cutler throw for 400 yds and 5 INT's. With your argument the Colts should have 4 or 5 SB's right now.

You are assuming that Denvers first 4 possessions they're running game would have been totally shut down by the Colts. Even against the Colts, a running attack that consisted of Pittman, Hillis, and Torain with Cutlers and our WR's wouldn't have scored at least 17 to 21 points! Thus changing the Colts game plan how they would attack Denver! Shanny would have developed on offensive game plan that would have forced the Colts to play-cover the entire field and the Colts D could not have shut down both Denvers passing and zone blocking schemes.

TailgateNut
08-12-2009, 02:11 PM
Cutler had no viable running options.....so defenses cheated and forced Cutler into bad throws.

:spit:

kamakazi_kal
08-12-2009, 02:12 PM
Some fans just McLove it....

Fonco'n A .... that's just awesome.

jhns
08-12-2009, 02:15 PM
Is this stuff serious? We had the worst defense in franchise history and won half our games but the offense sucked? Do you guys think before typing? What is even better is you are all saying we needed to change our entire offense and get rid of our qb because an offense of rookie to third year guys couldn't carry a team filled with injuries (and not just to rb) and with the franchises worst ever defense to the playoffs?

You could have fooled me. I was thinking some experience and a consistent rb would have fixed the offense... A rb and defense would have fixed this team. You are all just trying to homer out to much and make excuses for mcd who decided to spend just as many resources on offense as he did on defense this offseason. The guy that gave away our qb because he has no idea how to deal with players.

Oh well, this sorry excuse of a front office will be gone soon enough. At least we can look forward to the Cowher years.

Drek
08-12-2009, 02:16 PM
Injuries are part of the game! Can't use it as an excuse. If Orton is served "Lemons" he's got to find a way to make "Lemonade".

Afterall, Cutler made the pro bowl despite enduring playing with a totally decimated running attack where 7 RB's all suffered season ending injuries.

1. Cutler's pro bowl was a joke. He made it on a strong first six games and very inconsistent play throughout. If the voting took place at the end of the season he doesn't finish in the top 5 for QBs.

2. Despite a wave of RB injuries we still had a top 10 rushing team. And our OC gave up on the running game WELL before we ran through all those RBs FYI. We ran a pass first offense from day one, injuries at the RB position come secondary to that regardless.

3. Injuries are reality. Cutler was QB for a season when he had freakish stability at every position but RB. We might have gone through a lot of RBs, but I bet a lot of teams would take that if it meant everyone else stayed healthy.

Of course Orton will have to deal with some injuries, thats football, my comment was just that assuming we don't see a total offensive decimation (multiple OLs, WR, and RBs) he's poised to have a break out season. I'll be right with you if we have a standard amount of injuries and Orton turns in a mediocre season, but until we see what he can or can't do in a totally new environment more conducive to his game I'm not about to label him average.

How so! According to you and your Ilk, Denver has one of the best OL in the NFL. Well if thats the case, aren't great OL's going to open up holes and lanes for the running game (Hillis, Pittman and Hillis) as well as provide enough protection for last years pro bowl QB to exploit the passing attack with some of the best WR's in the game (Royale and Bmarsh)! The Colts, SD, Pitt, and Tenn all would have had problems containing Hillis, Pittman and Hillis running with the zone blocking shcheme. Then these teams would have had to deal with Denvers passing attack with a QB in Cutler that could make all throws and stretch the field. In other words the defenses Denver would have faced in the playoffs would have had to play honest and not cheat!

I don't think anyone is arguing that our offense wasn't playoff caliber last year, with or without healthy RBs. The problem with your statement is that the gap between our offense and the average playoff teams we would've faced is much, much smaller than the gap between our defense and theirs.

Our defense was one of the worst in recent NFL history. The Titans have one of the weakest offenses for a playoff team last year and they probably could have put 30+ up on us. Do you think our offense would have definitively done that to them, one of the elite D's of last year? We already saw ourselves get smoke showed by Carolina just three weeks before the season ended, and they weren't an elite playoff offense.

The defense was that bad. What makes matters worse is the offense was entirely reliant on Cutler and he was literally 50/50 throughout the season. We would've been the preferred first round opponent of EVERY playoff team.

kamakazi_kal
08-12-2009, 02:19 PM
just to get us back on the topic of this thread......

Orton is average ...... not good, not bad ..... just average.

"golden loads" "end thread" and a little "fonco"

All is now right with the offseason.

Please Friday ..... give something ELSE to talk about.

TailgateNut
08-12-2009, 02:23 PM
just to get us back on the topic of this thread......

Orton is average ...... not good, not bad ..... just average which will be good enough.

"golden loads" "end thread" and a little "fonco"

All HAS BEEN right with the offseason.

Please Friday ..... give something to shut Colonel Beef up.


Fixed it for ya.:~ohyah!:

kamakazi_kal
08-12-2009, 02:25 PM
Fixed it for ya.:~ohyah!:

grumble grumble.

ScottXray
08-12-2009, 02:42 PM
1. Cutler's pro bowl was a joke. He made it on a strong first six games and very inconsistent play throughout. If the voting took place at the end of the season he doesn't finish in the top 5 for QBs.

2. Despite a wave of RB injuries we still had a top 10 rushing team. And our OC gave up on the running game WELL before we ran through all those RBs FYI. We ran a pass first offense from day one, injuries at the RB position come secondary to that regardless.

3. Injuries are reality. Cutler was QB for a season when he had freakish stability at every position but RB. We might have gone through a lot of RBs, but I bet a lot of teams would take that if it meant everyone else stayed healthy.

Of course Orton will have to deal with some injuries, thats football, my comment was just that assuming we don't see a total offensive decimation (multiple OLs, WR, and RBs) he's poised to have a break out season. I'll be right with you if we have a standard amount of injuries and Orton turns in a mediocre season, but until we see what he can or can't do in a totally new environment more conducive to his game I'm not about to label him average.



I don't think anyone is arguing that our offense wasn't playoff caliber last year, with or without healthy RBs. The problem with your statement is that the gap between our offense and the average playoff teams we would've faced is much, much smaller than the gap between our defense and theirs.

Our defense was one of the worst in recent NFL history. The Titans have one of the weakest offenses for a playoff team last year and they probably could have put 30+ up on us. Do you think our offense would have definitively done that to them, one of the elite D's of last year? We already saw ourselves get smoke showed by Carolina just three weeks before the season ended, and they weren't an elite playoff offense.

The defense was that bad. What makes matters worse is the offense was entirely reliant on Cutler and he was literally 50/50 throughout the season. We would've been the preferred first round opponent of EVERY playoff team.

I'm agreeing with Drek, especially the last three paragraphs. When we had our whole offense together at the begiining of the year we were still scored on by SD so often that it was a shootout,,,,and that was with them playing badly. Every good team we played after that we got trounced....because of the defense and becasue we relied too much on He Who Shall Not Be Named having good games EVERY week....something that didn't happen.
The playoffs would have seen the scoreboard get lit up by the other teams offense, and it was only 50-50 we would be able to keep up if the QB was ON.
Our whole philosophy was Pass oriented.

I agree that I'd rather see Hillis, Knowshon etc than the ringing bells we suited up at the end of the year. But in the playoffs we still wouldn't have gone far becasue good defenses shut down the run....and ours was an invitation to highlight film for anyone we played all year.

TheReverend
08-12-2009, 03:04 PM
I'm agreeing with Drek, especially the last three paragraphs. When we had our whole offense together at the begiining of the year we were still scored on by SD so often that it was a shootout,,,,and that was with them playing badly. Every good team we played after that we got trounced....because of the defense and becasue we relied too much on He Who Shall Not Be Named having good games EVERY week....something that didn't happen.
The playoffs would have seen the scoreboard get lit up by the other teams offense, and it was only 50-50 we would be able to keep up if the QB was ON.
Our whole philosophy was Pass oriented.

I agree that I'd rather see Hillis, Knowshon etc than the ringing bells we suited up at the end of the year. But in the playoffs we still wouldn't have gone far becasue good defenses shut down the run....and ours was an invitation to highlight film for anyone we played all year.

Jets and Atlanta?

azbroncfan
08-12-2009, 05:30 PM
You are assuming that Denvers first 4 possessions they're running game would have been totally shut down by the Colts. .

Even if the Colts didn't shut down the running game the best Denver could hope for in that scenerio would be to be tied 28-28. Colts would of torched Denver's D at will running or passing. SD would of put 40 pts or so just like they have for the last 3-4 years. Tennessees one sided offense could line up with Denver knowing they were going to run it and run the ball all over that garbage D. Pitt could do whatever they wanted to do run or pass. Both Pitt and Tenn's defenses would of had good success against Denver's offense too at least forcing FG's and kicking FG's usually means you lose the game. That is some pretty good dope you have been smoking.

colonelbeef
08-12-2009, 06:32 PM
Exactly great post.

oh please. C0ck Chalk blames everything he can on Cutler in essentially every post on the subject. This is a place for discussing the current state of the Broncos, how we got here, and where we are going, not for gargling McDaniels' seed.

TailgateNut
08-12-2009, 06:40 PM
oh please. C0ck Chalk blames everything he can on Cutler in essentially every post on the subject. This is a place for discussing the current state of the Broncos, how we got here, and where we are going, not for gargling McDaniels' seed.

Look who talking about gargling seed. Mr. I love C untler.:spit:

Rock Chalk
08-12-2009, 06:53 PM
Look who talking about gargling seed. Mr. I love C untler.:spit:

Hypocracy :)

Rock Chalk
08-12-2009, 06:55 PM
I doubt that very seriously b/c a healthy Pittman, Torain, and Hillis sharing the load in the playoffs would have meant the Broncos could have played clockcontrol thus protecting the pop warner defense and keeping opposing teams offense on the sidelines. Also, b/c of our running game, it would have opened up passing lanes and opportunities for our receivers and Cutler.

Simply put.....Denver would have been a difficult match up!

Wait, Denver would ahve been a difficult matchup in last years playoffs?

Are we talking about the same team that choked away a 3 game division lead with one of those games against a horrendous buffalo team AT HOME?

Get the **** out of here with that nonsense.

TonyR
08-12-2009, 07:12 PM
...opposing teams knew Cutler had no viable running options.....so defenses cheated and forced Cutler into bad throws.

How do you explain the Raiders debacle, losing at home with a healthy Hillis? We had lots of problems in that game, and Jay Cutler was one of the biggest ones. He sucked.

lex
08-12-2009, 07:19 PM
How do you explain the Raiders debacle, losing at home with a healthy Hillis? We had lots of problems in that game, and Jay Cutler was one of the biggest ones. He sucked.

We were either 4-1 or 5-1 with a healthy Hillis toting the ball in the backfield.

TheReverend
08-12-2009, 07:24 PM
Wait, Denver would ahve been a difficult matchup in last years playoffs?

Are we talking about the same team that choked away a 3 game division lead with one of those games against a horrendous buffalo team AT HOME?

Get the **** out of here with that nonsense.

Buffallo went 7-7 with Trent Edwards and a winning record on the road. Not kings of the world, but I don't think I'd call them "horrendous" either.

Kaylore
08-12-2009, 07:27 PM
Buffallo went 7-7 with Trent Edwards and a winning record on the road. Not kings of the world, but I don't think I'd call them "horrendous" either.

We lost to the 4-12 Jags at home, the Raiders at home and were one of the two Chief wins, that we also barely beat at home.

When you consider the quality of the opponents we beat and lost to, we were one of the crappier teams last year.

TheReverend
08-12-2009, 07:35 PM
We lost to the 4-12 Jags at home, the Raiders at home and were one of the two Chief wins, that we also barely beat at home.

When you consider the quality of the opponents we beat and lost to, we were one of the crappier teams last year.

I didn't say anything about that... just commenting on the Bills.

As far as the "one of the crappier teams last year" goes, we also beat some very good teams. Tampa, Atlanta, the Jets, New Orleans, those teams aren't close to poor.

ScottXray
08-12-2009, 11:47 PM
I didn't say anything about that... just commenting on the Bills.

As far as the "one of the crappier teams last year" goes, we also beat some very good teams. Tampa, Atlanta, the Jets, New Orleans, those teams aren't close to poor.

If Wishes and buts were nickles and dimes I'd be a millionaire. If we had a running game.....If the QB didn't get all mopey in some games.
We didn't make the playoffs, so saying we would have done well is
rediculous and unsupported. Reality got in the way.

Yes, they did beat some good teams along the way....but there were some
tight moments in those games that could have had different results (the Atlanta receiver that dropped the catch near the end that would have put us away, for instance). Another IF that didn't happen, but it was not because our Defense did anything....it was just good luck for us. We had our share of both good and bad. In the end we weren't in the playoffs, and that led to where we are now...New coach, new QB, and hopefully a new direction that leads back to the playoffs and a new SB trophy.

TonyR
08-13-2009, 07:11 AM
We were either 4-1 or 5-1 with a healthy Hillis toting the ball in the backfield.

So that's your excuse for Jay crapping the bed against the effing Raiders at home? Sorry, I want a QB who shows up and competes every week. Pissing away a home game against a lousy division opponent is unacceptable.

lex
08-13-2009, 07:36 AM
So that's your excuse for Jay crapping the bed against the effing Raiders at home? Sorry, I want a QB who shows up and competes every week. Pissing away a home game against a lousy division opponent is unacceptable.

I know...and thats why you act like a scorned woman.

kamakazi_kal
08-13-2009, 07:41 AM
So that's your excuse for Jay crapping the bed against the effing Raiders at home? Sorry, I want a QB who shows up and competes every week. Pissing away a home game against a lousy division opponent is unacceptable.

So are you saying that Orton could have won those games ...... jezzy talk about sour grapes .... payton manning couldn't have won much with that team. He would have made the playoffs but Cutler is no Manning.

_Oro_
08-13-2009, 07:50 AM
So that's your excuse for Jay crapping the bed against the effing Raiders at home? Sorry, I want a QB who shows up and competes every week. Pissing away a home game against a lousy division opponent is unacceptable.

And Shanny, for maybe the first time ever, looked helpless on the sideline.

chrisp
08-13-2009, 07:51 AM
So are you saying that Orton could have won those games ......

Pur-leasse.... My mother could have got a better passer rating than Jay did THAT day....and for the record she's retired now and never watched football in her life.....

Didn't really want to get involved in this particular pissing contest, but.....honestly....:wiggle:

kamakazi_kal
08-13-2009, 07:56 AM
Pur-leasse.... My mother could have got a better passer rating than Jay did THAT day....and for the record she's retired now and never watched football in her life.....

Didn't really want to get involved in this particular pissing contest, but.....honestly....:wiggle:

I guess it's possible if your mom is 6'2" 250lbs.