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Hulamau
08-09-2009, 03:35 AM
This is what its all about and a big reason I'm so behind McD and the new direction!

Interesting, Tuten finally getting to do what he always wanted to do in conditioning he says. No more Shanny Club Med!

http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_13023755


Broncos running toward improvement
Wind sprints and full pads are part of practices geared to get the team playing tougher ball.
By Mike Klis
The Denver Post

They run before practice and they run after.

They skip and they stretch. They pop pads and they stretch. They jog and they run. They run and they run some more.

"We're running a ton more this year," said Broncos tight end Tony Scheffler. "The good thing is it's getting easier each day."

Watch the Broncos warm up early in their practices at training camp, and huff through their sprints at the end, and it becomes obvious a new strength and conditioning coordinator is among the team's many changes this season.

The new conditioning coach is Rich Tuten.

All right, so Tuten is technically in his 15th season with the Broncos. He may as well be starting over, though.

"We're doing things I've always wanted to do," Tuten said. "It's called dynamic active stretching. It's stretching while moving. This year I was asked what we should do, and we're doing what I wanted to do. This is the most physical we've been in 15 years. I think it's really going to help us. I love it. This is football."

A case can be made that it wasn't a sieve defense, red-zone interceptions or poor special teams that doomed the Broncos to the worst collapse in NFL history last year.

It was the groin tear.

The Broncos lost Scheffler, starting tailback Selvin Young, star cornerback Champ Bailey and fullback-linebacker Spencer Larsen for extended periods last season because of ripped groins.

Scheffler's replacement, Nate Jackson, suffered a season-ending hamstring tear, as did Peyton Hillis, an emerging star tailback.

"I noticed during the OTAs (organized team activities) and camp, we haven't had the pulls that we've had in the past," Bailey said.

Tuten said for all the added running and stretching he is barking the players through this summer, nothing will condition them more than new coach Josh McDaniels' preference to practice in pads.

In the 14 previous seasons under Mike Shanahan, McDaniels' predecessor, the Broncos almost always practiced in shorts, helmets and the inner lining of shoulder pads. Shanahan believed in high-tempo, precision workouts without battering bodies.

His teams developed a pattern of starting fast, but wilting late.

McDaniels' professional coaching background is rooted in the NFL's more physical eastern region, where the general philosophies usually originate with this notion: Football is a contact sport.
.................................................. .........................

"It's like if you only run or worked out once a week, you're going to be sore and beat up after that workout. But if you work out all week, one day is not going to affect you as much."

Not everything about the Broncos' new conditioning routine is painful to witness. When 300-pound-somethings high step for 20 yards, there are occasional snickers and no reminders of the Carnegie-Philharmonic Ballet.

The most striking differences, though, are padded pants during practice and wind sprints following, even when there's two workouts a day.

"Some of those older guys, I think, were used to a certain routine and regiment during camp and they're adjusting to getting back to how it was in high school and college and how they grew up playing football," Tuten said.

"It becomes a mental thing too," said Broncos offensive tackle Ryan Harris. "Run a few laps, run a few sprints and you tell yourself: 'You can always do more.' "

A pertinent mind-set considering recent history. It seems the Broncos not only developed a penchant for weakening in December, they were pummeled in the fourth quarter from 2006-08, they were outscored by a combined 104 points (355-251).

As the only franchise in a 32-team league that trains at altitude, performing poorly late in the race defies logic, while also partially explaining the Broncos' 13-12 home record since playing in the 2005 AFC championship game.

"It's all about the fourth quarter and the advantage of playing at altitude," offensive tackle Tyler Polumbus said of the Broncos' new conditioning routine. "It's different. Coaches are telling us, 'Put it in the bank.' Because it's amazing how many games are won in the fourth quarter."

Consistent collapses

Under Mike Shanahan, the Broncos were known for their fast starts and late-season fades. Broncos reporter Mike Klis points to statistical evidence of how the Broncos were poorly equipped for the stretch run:

One turnover recorded by Denver's defense the last four games last season, tied with the Giants for the NFL low

Two fourth-quarter takeaways in the 2008 season, worst in the NFL

32.3 points per game allowed by the Broncos in the last four games of 2008, worst in the NFL

Offense led the NFL last season with 1,598 fourth-quarter yards, but was tied for 11th with 108 fourth-quarter points

Tied for 25th in the NFL with a .357 winning percentage (5-9) in the final month of the past three seasons

In two of the past three seasons, Broncos only had to win their final home game against teams with losing records San Francisco in 2006 and Buffalo in 2008 to reach the playoffs. The Broncos blew 13-0 leads in both games and lost both

First team in NFL history to blow a three-game division lead with three games to play (2008)

Hulamau
08-09-2009, 03:42 AM
I bet it takes Knowshon a week or so to catch up, just with the intensity of camp and conditioning once the pads come on with two a days starting tomorrow.

Not to mention spending all this hold out time in Georgia which might as well be sea level. Would have been smarter to train in Denver while waiting to iron out the contract thing but his agent obviously wasn't thinking of his what was best for Knowshon in the short term as well as the long run when he allowed him ... or likely told him to go back tgo Georgia as a further bargaining stance.

meangene
08-09-2009, 04:00 AM
Another factor that I always felt hurt the team down the stretch in both the season and the games was a lack of size. That has really changed on defense - whether you believe the defense will be better or not it will be a much bigger front seven. You are seeing a gradual increase in the size of the OL too, even with the ZBS. I am glad to see they are trying something different with the conditioning. Often injuries are just bad luck but we have had way more than our share in recent years.

meangene
08-09-2009, 04:04 AM
I bet it takes Knowshon a week or so to catch up, just with the intensity of camp and conditioning once the pads come on with two a days starting tomorrow.

Not to mention spending all this hold out time in Georgia which might as well be sea level. Would have been smarter to train in Denver while waiting to iron out the contract thing but his agent obviously wasn't thinking of his what was best for Knowshon in the short term as well as the long run when he allowed him ... or likely told him to go back tgo Georgia as a further bargaining stance.

Maybe some altitude adjustment but he has been training in the brutal southeast summer heat so I bet he is in good shape. I remember when I first moved here to southeast Virginia my senior year in high school and went straight to two-a-day football practice - I thought I was gonna die. You work up a sweat just walking to the mailbox from the humidity.

Atwater His Ass
08-09-2009, 04:35 AM
Doesn't mean anything until results are shown on the field. Let's not forget that Shanny won 2 Super Bowls here doing things his way; I think the guy knows how to run a training camp and practice. If it was as simple as doing more stretching and running, he wouldn't have been let go.

There are deeper problems on this team than the differences in how Shanny and McD run a practice.

RunSilentRunDeep
08-09-2009, 05:00 AM
Interesting Tuten would take such a big swipe at Shanny.

Pseudofool
08-09-2009, 05:47 AM
Interesting Tuten would take such a big swipe at Shanny.

I thought so too; it was hardly veiled at all. It doesn't sound like McD is all that much of a control freak, rather he delegates...which I think is a good thing.

Paladin
08-09-2009, 05:59 AM
[QUOTE=Hulamau;2499253]I bet it takes Knowshon a week or so to catch up, just with the intensity of camp and conditioning once the pads come on with two a days starting tomorrow. QUOTE]

Why? As I recall, he was here for all other OTAs. Further, I think the NFL prohibits players from TCs unless they have contracts. So, he could not have used the facilities at Dove Valley, but he could use those at UGA. I don't know his personal situation, but I am sure he crashed somewhere friendly and supportive. I didn't see it as a problem. If he passes his "test" - which I think he did already - what's the problem?

Shanny was so afraid of injries, he probably caused some......

SoDak Bronco
08-09-2009, 06:57 AM
Tuten is well respected throughout the league, you see him at the rookie combine helping count the 225lb reps. I am glad McD was able to keep him, and let him do his thing.

loborugger
08-09-2009, 07:25 AM
Interesting Tuten would take such a big swipe at Shanny.

Ya.

Early on in the Shanny regime - when Denver was a dominant franchise - Shanny was applauded for his practices. They were limited and designed not to injure players, esp the vets. Therefore, Denver became the kind of place that free agents wanted to come sign.

Now, we are all excited about the change. And why not? This late season fizzle is all too predictable and unpalatable. This team was built to run - at least under Shanny. The O-line is the strength of the team and we seem to have 2 or 3 good RB/FBs. It would be nice to see a return of bullies that could run right down a teams throat. You know, 3 & 1, and we are gonna run. Right up the middle. Try and stop us.

footstepsfrom#27
08-09-2009, 07:39 AM
We did all this in high school. I never understood Shanny's weird approach to practice without pads, and why their conditioning seemed to result in so many injuries. The fact that they trained in altitude only reinforces the bizarre nature of that. I like this approach a lot more.

UberBroncoMan
08-09-2009, 07:50 AM
Interesting Tuten would take such a big swipe at Shanny.

You could say he was Tootin in whistle HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

...

Drek
08-09-2009, 07:50 AM
Doesn't mean anything until results are shown on the field. Let's not forget that Shanny won 2 Super Bowls here doing things his way; I think the guy knows how to run a training camp and practice. If it was as simple as doing more stretching and running, he wouldn't have been let go.

There are deeper problems on this team than the differences in how Shanny and McD run a practice.

Shanahan won two titles doing it his way when the ZBS was new, he had an all-world HB, and an OL that had more than a couple standouts on it.

Since then we've seen Shanahan try to maintain the same methodology with much different results.

Shanahan is the second best thing to happen to the Denver Broncos (the first being John Elway). But over the last couple seasons he had gotten complacent and set in his ways. As a result his performance declined and Bowlen did what he had to do. I'd love to see Shanahan back in the league sooner than later, but if he doesn't make some massive changes to how he conducts business as a HC he won't see much different results from what we had here the last few years.

_Oro_
08-09-2009, 07:55 AM
Ya.

Early on in the Shanny regime - when Denver was a dominant franchise - Shanny was applauded for his practices. They were limited and designed not to injure players, esp the vets. Therefore, Denver became the kind of place that free agents wanted to come sign.

Now, we are all excited about the change. And why not? This late season fizzle is all too predictable and unpalatable. This team was built to run - at least under Shanny. The O-line is the strength of the team and we seem to have 2 or 3 good RB/FBs. It would be nice to see a return of bullies that could run right down a teams throat. You know, 3 & 1, and we are gonna run. Right up the middle. Try and stop us.

And maybe this is connected to some of those free agent busts we brought in as well.

Gcver2ver3
08-09-2009, 07:59 AM
Tied for 25th in the NFL with a .357 winning percentage (5-9) in the final month of the past three seasons

In two of the past three seasons, Broncos only had to win their final home game against teams with losing records San Francisco in 2006 and Buffalo in 2008 to reach the playoffs. The Broncos blew 13-0 leads in both games and lost both

First team in NFL history to blow a three-game division lead with three games to play (2008)

after reading this, how is it not obvious that Shanny's time was up?...

_Oro_
08-09-2009, 08:01 AM
If Shanny's next job is a rebuilding situation, then he's got to realize he has to start punishing these guys in camp a little more. Tomlin went in and worked the Steelers good the first year. The next year he gavem a little slack and they won the super bowl. It'd be nice to see Shanny come back with a project team and turn them into a contender.

Kaylore
08-09-2009, 08:41 AM
So did Tuten do things in a way he didn't like for all those years or did McDaniels just allow him to create the entire program from scratch himself and that's why he's "more happy" now? It seems odd to me that Tuten would work here for so long running a program that he wasn't 100% on board with. Maybe the money was good?

s0phr0syne
08-09-2009, 08:42 AM
The whole lap running thing is something that Mangini did for the NY Jets too, didn't work out so well for them...

Kaylore
08-09-2009, 08:46 AM
The whole lap running thing is something that Mangini did for the NY Jets too, didn't work out so well for them...

That's a fallacious argument. You can't take a bad season and assume everything they did caused that season and is therefore bad, from their exercises, to their practice to how they tie their shoes. That's like saying we can't eat salads because Hitler ate salads.

s0phr0syne
08-09-2009, 08:52 AM
Yes and no.

I'm not saying McD will blow because Mangini blew. I'm saying, as many others have rightfully pointed out, that none of the Beliclones have succeeded yet, and that this whole lap running business is getting it's fair share of positive fan and media reaction for no real reason.

Many coaches have come in and run easier camps to find success, and just as many have come in and run killer camps to find success. There's many other variable at work, so if I were arguing that the laps made the Jets suck, I would be wrong like you said.

But I'm not

Hulamau
08-09-2009, 09:00 AM
[QUOTE=Hulamau;2499253]I bet it takes Knowshon a week or so to catch up, just with the intensity of camp and conditioning once the pads come on with two a days starting tomorrow. QUOTE]

Why? As I recall, he was here for all other OTAs. Further, I think the NFL prohibits players from TCs unless they have contracts. So, he could not have used the facilities at Dove Valley, but he could use those at UGA. I don't know his personal situation, but I am sure he crashed somewhere friendly and supportive. I didn't see it as a problem. If he passes his "test" - which I think he did already - what's the problem?

Shanny was so afraid of injries, he probably caused some......

Its the altitude. There are plenty of good facilities here too to work at other than Dove . Its not too big a deal , but with the limited time he has to get it together now, having his altitude air in his lungs and legs under him already would help. Of course Georgia was more cushy for him .. maybe not the best place for him to spend the holdout.

He is in shape yes but it will take him a week to get his wind AND while doing two a days at altitude. He'll survive, just would have given him another edge had he stayed in altitude shape as well.

skpac1001
08-09-2009, 09:14 AM
Yes and no.

I'm not saying McD will blow because Mangini blew. I'm saying, as many others have rightfully pointed out, that none of the Beliclones have succeeded yet, and that this whole lap running business is getting it's fair share of positive fan and media reaction for no real reason.

Many coaches have come in and run easier camps to find success, and just as many have come in and run killer camps to find success. There's many other variable at work, so if I were arguing that the laps made the Jets suck, I would be wrong like you said.

But I'm not

When every year there is unusually high injury issues, and every year the team withers in the stretch, and nothing is ever done to address the issues other then hope we are lucky this year (Shanny's standard preseason disclaimer) and put players in the doghouse, it is completely appropriate to get excited about a change that specifically targets the issues to fix them with work rather then crossing our fingers. Working to fix chronic issues rather then using them as excuses is a welcome change to me.

JCMElway
08-09-2009, 09:48 AM
Maybe some altitude adjustment but he has been training in the brutal southeast summer heat so I bet he is in good shape. I remember when I first moved here to southeast Virginia my senior year in high school and went straight to two-a-day football practice - I thought I was gonna die. You work up a sweat just walking to the mailbox from the humidity.

He was probably training in a practice bubble.

Wes Mantooth
08-09-2009, 10:45 AM
Does this change anyone's mind regarding Tuten and Greek?

bpc
08-09-2009, 10:51 AM
I'm a fan of physical and I think stretching is imperative.

I don't think the late season losses were from conditioning though. We had the exact same regime winning super bowls.

Ultimately wins and losses come down to a matter of luck and also talent. Our defense didn't have either last year.

tsiguy96
08-09-2009, 10:53 AM
Does this change anyone's mind regarding Tuten and Greek?

tuten, yes. before i thought maybe his time was up, but now we see its not really his fault he couldnt do what he wnated to do, he was limited by what shanahan would let him do.

DenverBrit
08-09-2009, 11:02 AM
Does this change anyone's mind regarding Tuten and Greek?

It explains a lot.

Mr. Elway
08-09-2009, 11:13 AM
So did Tuten do things in a way he didn't like for all those years or did McDaniels just allow him to create the entire program from scratch himself and that's why he's "more happy" now? It seems odd to me that Tuten would work here for so long running a program that he wasn't 100% on board with. Maybe the money was good?

Good point. I'm sure the money was good, and Denver is a nice place to live and work, too. But maybe Tuten, like many of us, simply felt that Shanahan was one of the best coaches in the league and as such he trusted his better judgement, even perhaps to a fault in hindsight. Shanahan wanted things done in a specific way for his own reasons, and Tuten supported that. I guess my point here is that Tuten probably had conflicting feelings on the matter, and it doesn't necessarily mean he didn't like working for Shanahan, even if that meant he didn't get to make all the calls he wanted to.

telluride
08-09-2009, 11:24 AM
Does this change anyone's mind regarding Tuten and Greek?

It does make me feel better about Tuten.

Greek, however, still has to go.

db56
08-09-2009, 11:33 AM
the last several years of Shanny's regime this team has been lacking toughness. I'm just glad to see changes period. coming out and going 3-0 and then finishing 4-9 and missing the playoffs and then constantly saying, " Obviously it's dissapointing" isnt good enough! Tired of teams coming in to Invesco and punking us! we should have the clear advantage in the fourth quarter! not our opponents.

Thanks Mr. Bowlen and Coach McD for getting rid of the prima donna cry babies and whipping this team into shape!

Football is back in Denver in 2010!

meangene
08-09-2009, 11:38 AM
It does make me feel better about Tuten.

Greek, however, still has to go.

It's a strange situation with team doctors. They are paid by, and employed by, the teams so there is sometimes an inherent conflict of interest. Kind of like workers' compensation doctors. Some are more interested in getting the player (worker) back on the job as soon as possible while others take a more patient-oriented approach. Greek seems more like a company man to me. Remember TD going back into the Super Bowl when he couldn't see from a migraine? I remember a lot of players coming off of injury and being immediately re-injured when put into games.

Mediator12
08-09-2009, 12:25 PM
It's a strange situation with team doctors. They are paid by, and employed by, the teams so there is sometimes an inherent conflict of interest. Kind of like workers' compensation doctors. Some are more interested in getting the player (worker) back on the job as soon as possible while others take a more patient-oriented approach. Greek seems more like a company man to me. Remember TD going back into the Super Bowl when he couldn't see from a migraine? I remember a lot of players coming off of injury and being immediately re-injured when put into games.

Actually, a lot of team doctors Pay to be the official doctors of an NFL team. Therefore, a lot of teams do not have or provide the best doctors to their players at the teams disposal..... DEN changed doctors amny times over the last 6 years or so as I have been told.

Popps
08-09-2009, 12:27 PM
Great article. I know Broncos fans are ready for a more physical brand of football, again. It's long overdue. This stuff makes a major difference come Dec/Jan.

oubronco
08-09-2009, 12:38 PM
Hell yea I want a physical team playing strong at the end of the year when it counts I was tired of getting pushed around against physical teams

Drek
08-09-2009, 12:47 PM
The whole lap running thing is something that Mangini did for the NY Jets too, didn't work out so well for them...

Mangini turned a 4-12 team into a 10-6 playoff team his first season, FYI, so the comparison you're trying to draw only supports the notion that tougher camps results in better regular season performance.

And Mangini took a franchise that Herm Edwards left basically talent bankrupt and rebuilt it pretty well. Some serious injuries derailed '07, but if it wasn't for Brett Favre choking down the stretch they win the division and make the playoffs twice in two years. Thats why he already has another HC job in this league.

Cito Pelon
08-09-2009, 12:49 PM
I think stretching and wind sprints galore are a very good thing. It's just simple fact, the more the better.

The full-pad practices are what most teams do, I believe. Now, during the season you want to limit that some, but in TC you need contact. Even QB's need contact. I'd like to see the QB's get hit some in a controlled way. Make them go as the gunner on PR practices once in a while, they need to get torqued around just like everybody else, take their lumps like everybody else. They'll sure be getting torqued around and taking lumps beginning next Friday, so they should get used to it even if it's just a little bit.

Popps
08-09-2009, 12:54 PM
Thanks Mr. Bowlen and Coach McD for getting rid of the prima donna cry babies and whipping this team into shape!

Football is back in Denver in 2010!

Pat has made the right decisions for the last 20 years, and I suspect this is yet another in a history of good decisions.

We may not be SB contenders right out of the gate, but this team is going to be fun to root for again. I can't wait to see a physical, smart style of football back in Denver.

Punisher
08-09-2009, 12:56 PM
the last several years of Shanny's regime this team has been lacking toughness. I'm just glad to see changes period. coming out and going 3-0 and then finishing 4-9 and missing the playoffs and then constantly saying, " Obviously it's dissapointing" isnt good enough! Tired of teams coming in to Invesco and punking us! we should have the clear advantage in the fourth quarter! not our opponents.

Thanks Mr. Bowlen and Coach McD for getting rid of the prima donna cry babies and whipping this team into shape!

Football is back in Denver in 2010!

:thumbs:

Paladin
08-09-2009, 01:03 PM
So. Maybe this McDaniels fellow is pretty good so far, huh?

meangene
08-09-2009, 01:09 PM
Actually, a lot of team doctors Pay to be the official doctors of an NFL team. Therefore, a lot of teams do not have or provide the best doctors to their players at the teams disposal..... DEN changed doctors amny times over the last 6 years or so as I have been told.

I was talking about Greek but you are right the system does not lead to the best doctors in many cases. That's why you see players going outside the team physicians for significant injuries and surgeries to well-known independent doctors. While the teams are paying the physicians they are not considered employees so they can be sued personally for malpractice. Given the salaries of the athletes / patients the cost of malpractice insurance can be astronomical. Not to mention the demands on the physician's time, etc. Because of this, many of the best physicians want no part of being a team physician.

mwill07
08-09-2009, 01:36 PM
I'm a fan of physical and I think stretching is imperative.

I don't think the late season losses were from conditioning though. We had the exact same regime winning super bowls.

Ultimately wins and losses come down to a matter of luck and also talent. Our defense didn't have either last year.

we had late season losses back then too...

In 1996, we entered December 11-1, went 2-2 in December.
In 1997, we entered December 11-2, went 2-2 in December.
In 1998, we entered December 12-0, went 2-2 in December.

Maybe it's better to look at seasons where we were > 500 in December:

2000: 3-1, with wins over 6-10 49ers and 6-10 Seahawks.
2003: 3-1, with wins over a couple of good teams, including 13-3 Chiefs. To be fair, this season was the one where we had everything clinched in wk 16 and sat everyone vs GB - the only Dec loss.
2004: 3-2 (counting January), wins vs 4-12 Dolphins, 5-11 Titans, and the Colts, minus Peyton Manning.
2005: 4-1, thanks to wins vs 6-10 Ravens, 5-11 Bills, 4-12 raiders


and that's it. In Shanahans entire head coaching career, he's won more than half his games exactly 4x, and most of those times was a result of some pretty lousy competition.

2003 was the only year of Shanahans regime that I would count as a successful December.

Rohirrim
08-09-2009, 01:40 PM
I love this! Many of us on this board have been yelling about this for years. Football is a contact sport. Simple. The real advantage Denver has is the altitude. By being in better condition than their opponents they turn the fourth quarter of home games into a track meet where the other team gets gassed. We go back to the old days of winning every home game and only worrying about half of the away games.

Cito Pelon
08-09-2009, 02:05 PM
we had late season losses back then too...

In 1996, we entered December 11-1, went 2-2 in December.
In 1997, we entered December 11-2, went 2-2 in December.
In 1998, we entered December 12-0, went 2-2 in December.

Maybe it's better to look at seasons where we were > 500 in December:

2000: 3-1, with wins over 6-10 49ers and 6-10 Seahawks.
2003: 3-1, with wins over a couple of good teams, including 13-3 Chiefs. To be fair, this season was the one where we had everything clinched in wk 16 and sat everyone vs GB - the only Dec loss.
2004: 3-2 (counting January), wins vs 4-12 Dolphins, 5-11 Titans, and the Colts, minus Peyton Manning.
2005: 4-1, thanks to wins vs 6-10 Ravens, 5-11 Bills, 4-12 raiders


and that's it. In Shanahans entire head coaching career, he's won more than half his games exactly 4x, and most of those times was a result of some pretty lousy competition.

2003 was the only year of Shanahans regime that I would count as a successful December.

Yah, that's a good look at what happened for the season.

For games, over the past 3-4 years I detailed the scoring discrepancy in the second half of games as well as the 4th-quarter scoring back to 1999. The scoring discrepancy in the 4th quarter was glaring.

Denver back to the 1999 season was outscored in the second half of games and in particular the 4th quarter consistently. There was a definite pattern in games - as well as seasons.

That was the culture in Broncoland - start fast in games and the season, finish weakly in games and the season. I'm happy Bowlen finally realized he had to change the culture.

Cito Pelon
08-09-2009, 02:16 PM
I love this! Many of us on this board have been yelling about this for years. Football is a contact sport. Simple. The real advantage Denver has is the altitude. By being in better condition than their opponents they turn the fourth quarter of home games into a track meet where the other team gets gassed. We go back to the old days of winning every home game and only worrying about half of the away games.

All true. Denver should be the best conditioned team in the NFL. They should be running circles around every other team be it at altitude or in the swamp-like conditions of Miami. It was pathetic to hear the team complain about the conditions in Miami every time they went there.

loborugger
08-09-2009, 02:34 PM
And maybe this is connected to some of those free agent busts we brought in as well.

Ah, but there were some good ones in there. Eddy Mac, Neil Smith, Griff, and Romo all come to mind. I think Dale Carter was the tipping point. Everything before that guy was golden. After that dude we got IHOP, Chester the Molester, and a few other grave errors.

bpc
08-09-2009, 03:40 PM
we had late season losses back then too...

In 1996, we entered December 11-1, went 2-2 in December.
In 1997, we entered December 11-2, went 2-2 in December.
In 1998, we entered December 12-0, went 2-2 in December.

Maybe it's better to look at seasons where we were > 500 in December:

2000: 3-1, with wins over 6-10 49ers and 6-10 Seahawks.
2003: 3-1, with wins over a couple of good teams, including 13-3 Chiefs. To be fair, this season was the one where we had everything clinched in wk 16 and sat everyone vs GB - the only Dec loss.
2004: 3-2 (counting January), wins vs 4-12 Dolphins, 5-11 Titans, and the Colts, minus Peyton Manning.
2005: 4-1, thanks to wins vs 6-10 Ravens, 5-11 Bills, 4-12 raiders


and that's it. In Shanahans entire head coaching career, he's won more than half his games exactly 4x, and most of those times was a result of some pretty lousy competition.

2003 was the only year of Shanahans regime that I would count as a successful December.

I don't necessarily disagree with the trends however we were also winning our divisions convincingly when Shanahan would usually pull the dogs off early before the season finished in the late 90's. I didn't agree with that either but better than a season ending injury during that period of time.

Attrition can also be credited to late season swoons however there are many teams that fall off at the end of the season, whether Mike Shanahan is coaching them or not. Injuries have played a big part in this teams late season failure recently and it's difficult to deny. I'm sure many will spin this into Shanahan's clubmed practices but I just think we've had a lot of bad luck.

Luck and talent factor more than mid-season conditioning in my opinion although I am a fan of physicality, being in shape and stretching with this sport.

BTW, Shanahan's teams had .500 or better records in every December he had been here until 06'. During the 95',96',97',98',99',00',01',02',03',04', the teams were average or good. It wasn't until recently that his clubs started playing bad late in the year.

mhgaffney
08-09-2009, 04:04 PM
The running builds stamina -- that is especially important late in the season.

telluride
08-09-2009, 04:15 PM
Yah, that's a good look at what happened for the season.

For games, over the past 3-4 years I detailed the scoring discrepancy in the second half of games as well as the 4th-quarter scoring back to 1999. The scoring discrepancy in the 4th quarter was glaring.

Denver back to the 1999 season was outscored in the second half of games and in particular the 4th quarter consistently. There was a definite pattern in games - as well as seasons.

That was the culture in Broncoland - start fast in games and the season, finish weakly in games and the season. I'm happy Bowlen finally realized he had to change the culture.

This speaks to one point I always got shouted down when trying to make around here for the past few years: Shanny was a pretty bad game coach. He (and his staff) were horrible at making in-game adjustments. He was great at pre-game scheming and scripting those first 15 plays, but after the script ran out he usually ended up being outcoached by the opposing coaches, who, more often then not, did make good in-game and halftime adjustments.

CoopDawg
08-09-2009, 04:17 PM
This is very encouraging, I hope that the conditioning translates into success on the field.

Bronx33
08-09-2009, 04:20 PM
Interesting Tuten would take such a big swipe at Shanny.

It sounds like the shanny shackles have been removed. ( iam excited!)

broncswin
08-09-2009, 04:24 PM
No more half pads bullsh*t and walk thru speed!! Now we just get out there and knock the snot bubble outta people. LOVE IT!!

GO BRONCOS

Cito Pelon
08-09-2009, 05:11 PM
I don't necessarily disagree with the trends however we were also winning our divisions convincingly when Shanahan would usually pull the dogs off early before the season finished in the late 90's. I didn't agree with that either but better than a season ending injury during that period of time.

Attrition can also be credited to late season swoons however there are many teams that fall off at the end of the season, whether Mike Shanahan is coaching them or not. Injuries have played a big part in this teams late season failure recently and it's difficult to deny. I'm sure many will spin this into Shanahan's clubmed practices but I just think we've had a lot of bad luck.

Luck and talent factor more than mid-season conditioning in my opinion although I am a fan of physicality, being in shape and stretching with this sport.

BTW, Shanahan's teams had .500 or better records in every December he had been here until 06'. During the 95',96',97',98',99',00',01',02',03',04', the teams were average or good. It wasn't until recently that his clubs started playing bad late in the year.

Good Lord, mwill07 just pointed out the few years Denver finished over .500 in December in the post you replied to. For the love of pete, understand the basics. I have to tell you, bpc, you're kind of a dolt if you dispute the simple facts when they're right for you.

lex
08-09-2009, 05:21 PM
we had late season losses back then too...

In 1996, we entered December 11-1, went 2-2 in December.
In 1997, we entered December 11-2, went 2-2 in December.
In 1998, we entered December 12-0, went 2-2 in December.

Maybe it's better to look at seasons where we were > 500 in December:

2000: 3-1, with wins over 6-10 49ers and 6-10 Seahawks.
2003: 3-1, with wins over a couple of good teams, including 13-3 Chiefs. To be fair, this season was the one where we had everything clinched in wk 16 and sat everyone vs GB - the only Dec loss.
2004: 3-2 (counting January), wins vs 4-12 Dolphins, 5-11 Titans, and the Colts, minus Peyton Manning.
2005: 4-1, thanks to wins vs 6-10 Ravens, 5-11 Bills, 4-12 raiders


and that's it. In Shanahans entire head coaching career, he's won more than half his games exactly 4x, and most of those times was a result of some pretty lousy competition.

2003 was the only year of Shanahans regime that I would count as a successful December.

In 1996 and 1998 they had amassed such a good record that they had secured HFA in the playoffs and had little to play for. This was especially an issue in 1996, when Shanahan chose to rest guys. In 1998, Denver was going for an undefeated season. They had HFA before the game at NYG. After the NYG game, its entirely likely that they werent as sharp in the Miami game since they were no longer playing for an undefeated season and they had HFA.

Those years are bad comparisons. Since there wasnt always an impetus to win games in December. I think after 1996, they used the last game of the season to get focused for the playoffs.

Also, if 96-98 were a valid comparison, they would have to have been dead in the water once the post season started since the logic in play is that they fade as the season goes along. In 97-98, they obviously did not fade once January arrived. So that killd the validity of this comparison.

It probably has a lot to do with experience. There were a lot of veterans on those SB teams who not only perform by going light in practice but it actually probably helped a lot of them. But over the years, the composition of the team changed and it may have been more necessary to put on the pads.

Cito Pelon
08-09-2009, 05:25 PM
This speaks to one point I always got shouted down when trying to make around here for the past few years: Shanny was a pretty bad game coach. He (and his staff) were horrible at making in-game adjustments. He was great at pre-game scheming and scripting those first 15 plays, but after the script ran out he usually ended up being outcoached by the opposing coaches, who, more often then not, did make good in-game and halftime adjustments.

That was obvious, yes. Very unpopular, yes. You and I both got shouted down like we were total idiots. And Club Shanny was perfect since it won two SB's in the 1990's. And McPoopypants should be fired right away.

People that know what they're talking about know Shanny was pretty much a one-trick pony. Whatever his first scripted plays were, you'd see them over and over again. He'd just try to run them from a different formation, or more likely he would run the play from the opposite side, the mirror image of a play he ran in the first quarter. Good defenses aren't so stupid they were caught by surprise by seeing the mirror image of the same plays over and over again.

elsid13
08-09-2009, 05:27 PM
Folks the guys train ten months plus out the year, do you really think that 36 days of camp is going to make that big of a difference? This isn't the 1950s, 60s or even the 80s. Modern players have their own personal trainers plus the team staff prepare them for the 17 game regular season. If you think that training camp is the key to their physical success, then you missing the bigger part of the story.

ZONA
08-09-2009, 05:33 PM
I don't think Shanny's way of practice was a result of his more recent teams failing to have good seasons. I think it was basically how many blown FA's and draft picks we went through. The quality of talent on this team for the past 5 years, up until last year, was pathetic. You can only game plan and scheme so much. You gotta have they talent to compete.

Cito Pelon
08-09-2009, 05:39 PM
In 1996 and 1998 they had amassed such a good record that they had secured HFA in the playoffs and had little to play for. This was especially an issue in 1996, when Shanahan chose to rest guys. In 1998, Denver was going for an undefeated season. They had HFA before the game at NYG. After the NYG game, its entirely likely that they werent as sharp in the Miami game since they were no longer playing for an undefeated season and they had HFA.

Those years are bad comparisons. Since there wasnt always an impetus to win games in December. I think after 1996, they used the last game of the season to get focused for the playoffs.

Also, if 96-98 were a valid comparison, they would have to have been dead in the water once the post season started since the logic in play is that they fade as the season goes along. In 97-98, they obviously did not fade once January arrived. So that killd the validity of this comparison.

It probably has a lot to do with experience. There were a lot of veterans on those SB teams who not only perform by going light in practice but it actually probably helped a lot of them. But over the years, the composition of the team changed and it may have been more necessary to put on the pads.

You choose to argue and ignore facts. I don't pay attention to you to much for that reason.

lex
08-09-2009, 05:43 PM
You choose to argue and ignore facts. I don't pay attention to you to much for that reason.


Im not ignoring anything. Your willingness to argue based on faulty comparisons is something that you should be more concerned with.


Theres an old saying:"You can lead a Cito Pelon to water but you can't make him think."

Mr.Meanie
08-09-2009, 05:44 PM
Theres an old saying:"You can lead a Cito Pelon to water but you can't make him think."

Ha!

Cito Pelon
08-09-2009, 05:53 PM
Folks the guys train ten months plus out the year, do you really think that 36 days of camp is going to make that big of a difference? This isn't the 1950s, 60s or even the 80s. Modern players have their own personal trainers plus the team staff prepare them for the 17 game regular season. If you think that training camp is the key to their physical success, then you missing the bigger part of the story.

TC is a huge deal, period.

TC is where you find out who wants to play, who's too fragile to play, who your aggressive guys are, who isn't aggressive, who responds well to aggression, who shy's away from aggression, who your leaders are in the face of aggression, who has stamina, who does not have stamina.

TC is the test. TC should not be a mamby-pamby test with some hand-picked guys let off from the tests. You either perform and deal with the physical nature of the sport in TC, or you're the backup to someone that performs and deals with it in TC.

elsid13
08-09-2009, 06:04 PM
TC is a huge deal, period.

TC is where you find out who wants to play, who's too fragile to play, who your aggressive guys are, who isn't aggressive, who responds well to aggression, who shy's away from aggression, who your leaders are in the face of aggression, who has stamina, who does not have stamina.

TC is the test. TC should not be a mamby-pamby test with some hand-picked guys let off from the tests. You either perform and deal with the physical nature of the sport in TC, or you're the backup to someone that performs and deals with it in TC.

This isn't high school training camp, it the NFL. Think what you want but training camp that is "hard and physical" will not improve physical performance like many are claiming in this thread.

Cito Pelon
08-09-2009, 06:34 PM
This isn't high school training camp, it the NFL. Think what you want but training camp that is "hard and physical" will not improve physical performance like many are claiming in this thread.

That is totally wrong, Elsid. You have to cull guys that are not strong enough to compete over 23 games - 4 exhibition, 16 regular, 3 postseason.

Coaches have to find out who is weak. It's a brutal game. You press hard in TC to find who your weak players are, then you cull them.

bpc
08-09-2009, 06:51 PM
Good Lord, mwill07 just pointed out the few years Denver finished over .500 in December in the post you replied to. For the love of pete, understand the basics. I have to tell you, bpc, you're kind of a dolt if you dispute the simple facts when they're right for you.

Then it must be asked, when have you ever made a compelling argument about anything? You're usually a discussion hopper, like, right now.

I'm not worried what your thoughts are. The fact is somebody said that Shanny's poor conditioning program caused us to lose in December when in fact, he was probably .500 at worst during that month, including two super bowl wins from his 15 seasons in Denver. That statistic basically proves nothing. 50/50 a conditioning program will help you win in December? If not for the multitude of injuries and issues over the past 3 years, he would be over that .500 mark.

2KBack
08-09-2009, 07:09 PM
Then it must be asked, when have you ever made a compelling argument about anything? You're usually a discussion hopper, like, right now.

I'm not worried what your thoughts are. The fact is somebody said that Shanny's poor conditioning program caused us to lose in December when in fact, he was probably .500 at worst during that month, including two super bowl wins from his 15 seasons in Denver. That statistic basically proves nothing. 50/50 a conditioning program will help you win in December? If not for the multitude of injuries and issues over the past 3 years, he would be over that .500 mark.

isn't it part of the argument that the current camp standards are in an effort to avoid injuries as well? It could then be argued that the injuries that kept shanahan from having a better late season record could be the fault of his Training camp conditioning standards.

ScottXray
08-09-2009, 07:18 PM
[QUOTE=Cito Pelon;2499824]That is totally wrong, Elsid. You have to cull guys that are not strong enough to compete over 23 games - 4 exhibition, 16 regular, 3 postseason.

Coaches have to find out who is weak. It's a brutal game. You press hard in TC to find who your weak players are, then you cull them.[/QUOTE

I Have to agree ....when we had a motivated and experienced team
with great leaders you can rest guys some in camp....But it has been a while since we had those types of guys. And the team still has to get ready for
PHYSICAL contact games, and have basics like tackling down. Over the last few years this team, other than one or two players, has just not been getting it done, on a fundamental level.

And while we pretty much know that Champ is going to start at CB , letting him know that coming into camp out of playing shape (fitness test) is not going to be tolerated anymore. The fact that he did so is a statement about how shanny ran his camps....favorites got special treatment and got to take
too much leeway in their own regimen. It showed in the softness the team displayed in games and the fourth quarter of games and the season.

In addition, there is the fact that our "really good" offense kept practicing against our " really bad" defense. By not going all out (on both sides ) it leads you to think that you are going to be all -right in games, and then the other team doesn't "coast", and you end up getting skunked by some of the worst teams in the league. I think that it helped lead to the fact we came out flat against so many teams over the last few years. Our team wasn't prepared to play, at a high (NFL) level and it showed many times. It showed last Friday when the O was expecting the D to coast a little and the D came out firing all guns.

Overall, I'd bet this team is going to have an intensity level we haven't seen for a while, and it should last all season. We might have a few more practice injuries...but with the added stretching and conditioning going on that should tend to reduce those. McD is running a good camp , and its refreshing to see club-med is no more .:yayaya:

Cito Pelon
08-09-2009, 07:20 PM
Then it must be asked, when have you ever made a compelling argument about anything? You're usually a discussion hopper, like, right now.

I'm not worried what your thoughts are. The fact is somebody said that Shanny's poor conditioning program caused us to lose in December when in fact, he was probably .500 at worst during that month, including two super bowl wins from his 15 seasons in Denver. That statistic basically proves nothing. 50/50 a conditioning program will help you win in December? If not for the multitude of injuries and issues over the past 3 years, he would be over that .500 mark.

Hell, you wouldn't recognize a compelling argument if it kicked you in the ass. I've seen a lot of posters try to show you good NFL stuff, but you just don't get it. You're not the only one, so I guess you should consider that a consolation prize.

cutthemdown
08-09-2009, 07:28 PM
I've read many times that this active stretching is more effective. I see a lot of UFC guys warming up this way.

I'm no kenseologist or obviously an English teacher, lol, but I have read a lot of athletes are going to this sort of thing.

cutthemdown
08-09-2009, 07:30 PM
One thing that stuck out earlier in the yr was when Mcdaniels pointed out how much weight the team lost between week 1 and week 16. Can't remember the number but the new staff felt the nutrition needed tweeking and more calories.

More eating, more running, more hitting, more physical play, seems like the kid at least has a plan. You can say you hate him, but you can't say he's not focused and organized.

elsid13
08-09-2009, 08:20 PM
That is totally wrong, Elsid. You have to cull guys that are not strong enough to compete over 23 games - 4 exhibition, 16 regular, 3 postseason.

Coaches have to find out who is weak. It's a brutal game. You press hard in TC to find who your weak players are, then you cull them.

Dude, what **** are you talking about? The guys aren't gladiators, they are professional sports players that make big bucks to play a game. And to think training camp make a difference on the finally roster is joke. 90% of rosters are set before a players even make it camp. At best you around 20 players attempting to make 5 spots and most of those guys don't have a future in the NFL.

Cito Pelon
08-09-2009, 08:29 PM
Dude, what **** are you talking about? The guys aren't gladiators, they are professional sports players that make big bucks to play a game. And to think training camp make a difference on the finally roster is joke. 90% of rosters are set before a players even make it camp. At best you around 20 players attempting to make 5 spots and most of those guys don't have a future in the NFL.

They're gladiators. And TC should cull guys out that are not ready to play 23 games. This is the NFL, not some mamby-pamby league. Guys that can't make it through a difficult TC don't belong in the NFL, period.

DarkHorse30
08-09-2009, 08:44 PM
Mangini turned a 4-12 team into a 10-6 playoff team his first season, FYI, so the comparison you're trying to draw only supports the notion that tougher camps results in better regular season performance.

And Mangini took a franchise that Herm Edwards left basically talent bankrupt and rebuilt it pretty well. Some serious injuries derailed '07, but if it wasn't for Brett Favre choking down the stretch they win the division and make the playoffs twice in two years. Thats why he already has another HC job in this league.

Good point. Mangini got FarVed. I'm betting he has Cleveland doing a lot better than Crennel ever did.

Atwater His Ass
08-09-2009, 08:50 PM
They're gladiators. And TC should cull guys out that are not ready to play 23 games. This is the NFL, not some mamby-pamby league. Guys that can't make it through a difficult TC don't belong in the NFL, period.

Yeah, let's wear people out in August with a brutal training camp. ****ing brilliant.

And you do realize that your own argument above is one of the main reasons people argue for less physical training camps right?

tsiguy96
08-09-2009, 08:53 PM
Yeah, let's wear people out in August with a brutal training camp. ****ing brilliant.

And you do realize that your own argument above is one of the main reasons people argue for less physical training camps right?

youre right, him bringing the same style training camp over from the patriots is an awful idea. the patriots only have youthful rookies on their team, no old ass veterans all over the roster.

elsid13
08-09-2009, 09:04 PM
They're gladiators. And TC should cull guys out that are not ready to play 23 games. This is the NFL, not some mamby-pamby league. Guys that can't make it through a difficult TC don't belong in the NFL, period.

I really hope you are drinking, because you sound absolutely insane right now.

baja
08-09-2009, 09:19 PM
This is what its all about and a big reason I'm so behind McD and the new direction!

Interesting, Tuten finally getting to do what he always wanted to do in conditioning he says. No more Shanny Club Med!

http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_13023755


Broncos running toward improvement
Wind sprints and full pads are part of practices geared to get the team playing tougher ball.
By Mike Klis
The Denver Post

They run before practice and they run after.

They skip and they stretch. They pop pads and they stretch. They jog and they run. They run and they run some more.

"We're running a ton more this year," said Broncos tight end Tony Scheffler. "The good thing is it's getting easier each day."

Watch the Broncos warm up early in their practices at training camp, and huff through their sprints at the end, and it becomes obvious a new strength and conditioning coordinator is among the team's many changes this season.

The new conditioning coach is Rich Tuten.

All right, so Tuten is technically in his 15th season with the Broncos. He may as well be starting over, though.

"We're doing things I've always wanted to do," Tuten said. "It's called dynamic active stretching. It's stretching while moving. This year I was asked what we should do, and we're doing what I wanted to do. This is the most physical we've been in 15 years. I think it's really going to help us. I love it. This is football."

A case can be made that it wasn't a sieve defense, red-zone interceptions or poor special teams that doomed the Broncos to the worst collapse in NFL history last year.

It was the groin tear.

The Broncos lost Scheffler, starting tailback Selvin Young, star cornerback Champ Bailey and fullback-linebacker Spencer Larsen for extended periods last season because of ripped groins.

Scheffler's replacement, Nate Jackson, suffered a season-ending hamstring tear, as did Peyton Hillis, an emerging star tailback.

"I noticed during the OTAs (organized team activities) and camp, we haven't had the pulls that we've had in the past," Bailey said.

Tuten said for all the added running and stretching he is barking the players through this summer, nothing will condition them more than new coach Josh McDaniels' preference to practice in pads.

In the 14 previous seasons under Mike Shanahan, McDaniels' predecessor, the Broncos almost always practiced in shorts, helmets and the inner lining of shoulder pads. Shanahan believed in high-tempo, precision workouts without battering bodies.

His teams developed a pattern of starting fast, but wilting late.

McDaniels' professional coaching background is rooted in the NFL's more physical eastern region, where the general philosophies usually originate with this notion: Football is a contact sport.
.................................................. .........................

"It's like if you only run or worked out once a week, you're going to be sore and beat up after that workout. But if you work out all week, one day is not going to affect you as much."

Not everything about the Broncos' new conditioning routine is painful to witness. When 300-pound-somethings high step for 20 yards, there are occasional snickers and no reminders of the Carnegie-Philharmonic Ballet.

The most striking differences, though, are padded pants during practice and wind sprints following, even when there's two workouts a day.

"Some of those older guys, I think, were used to a certain routine and regiment during camp and they're adjusting to getting back to how it was in high school and college and how they grew up playing football," Tuten said.

"It becomes a mental thing too," said Broncos offensive tackle Ryan Harris. "Run a few laps, run a few sprints and you tell yourself: 'You can always do more.' "

A pertinent mind-set considering recent history. It seems the Broncos not only developed a penchant for weakening in December, they were pummeled in the fourth quarter from 2006-08, they were outscored by a combined 104 points (355-251).

As the only franchise in a 32-team league that trains at altitude, performing poorly late in the race defies logic, while also partially explaining the Broncos' 13-12 home record since playing in the 2005 AFC championship game.

"It's all about the fourth quarter and the advantage of playing at altitude," offensive tackle Tyler Polumbus said of the Broncos' new conditioning routine. "It's different. Coaches are telling us, 'Put it in the bank.' Because it's amazing how many games are won in the fourth quarter."

Consistent collapses

Under Mike Shanahan, the Broncos were known for their fast starts and late-season fades. Broncos reporter Mike Klis points to statistical evidence of how the Broncos were poorly equipped for the stretch run:

One turnover recorded by Denver's defense the last four games last season, tied with the Giants for the NFL low

Two fourth-quarter takeaways in the 2008 season, worst in the NFL

32.3 points per game allowed by the Broncos in the last four games of 2008, worst in the NFL

Offense led the NFL last season with 1,598 fourth-quarter yards, but was tied for 11th with 108 fourth-quarter points

Tied for 25th in the NFL with a .357 winning percentage (5-9) in the final month of the past three seasons

In two of the past three seasons, Broncos only had to win their final home game against teams with losing records San Francisco in 2006 and Buffalo in 2008 to reach the playoffs. The Broncos blew 13-0 leads in both games and lost both

First team in NFL history to blow a three-game division lead with three games to play (2008)

Not to mention the ass kicking we got by the Colts when we did make the playoffs...

baja
08-09-2009, 09:29 PM
And maybe this is connected to some of those free agent busts we brought in as well.

Exactly, what is so good about a player that is enticed by easy practices.

baja
08-09-2009, 09:36 PM
So did Tuten do things in a way he didn't like for all those years or did McDaniels just allow him to create the entire program from scratch himself and that's why he's "more happy" now? It seems odd to me that Tuten would work here for so long running a program that he wasn't 100% on board with. Maybe the money was good?

Many many people stay in jobs they are not completely on board with because of the money or benefits, but you know that.

Cito Pelon
08-09-2009, 10:16 PM
Yeah, let's wear people out in August with a brutal training camp. ****ing brilliant.

And you do realize that your own argument above is one of the main reasons people argue for less physical training camps right?

Sure, I've heard that argument before. It's a two-edged sword. I believe in intensive training. I've said before that doesn't mean real intensive game-like conditions, three LB's converging on an RB. I like the one-on-one drills full pads. Doesn't matter who wins, they get impact and get torqued in ways their bodies won't get torqued until gameday. The players have to get used to that in TC. They also have to get used to full-impact plays 11-on-11 in TC.

montrose
08-09-2009, 10:23 PM
Awesome article. I'm hoping this leads to fewer injuries and (along with our much improved staff) better player development.

DivineLegion
08-09-2009, 10:34 PM
We only have 50% of our old roster and the majority of that is on offense, I know im jumping into this argument late but I think the physicality is called for. When your defense ranks dead last in the NFL something needs to be steeped up, what coach is doing out there is instilling a mentality of toughness and endurance.

Since when has physical prowess ever been a dominant factor is this league, if im not mistaken size and speed are only half of the requirements for good football players unless you play for the Raiders. Solid fundamentals which no one can argue is a lot of what this team lacked last year is exactly what our players are being drilled on right now.

I guarantee that this team is going to be a lot better this year because were getting back to fundamental football. Were going to run the ball and control the clock with a short passing game and play physical defense. Thats what Mike lacked his last two seasons with the Broncos, he got so gitty with his new toy (Jay) that we got away from playing possession football. I understand last year was a special case because of the Running back situation but realistically you can conceive the direction of my argument. The defense that we had in 2005 really wasn't that good, what we had was 1900 yards rushing from two different back and a Quarterback that was asked to manage that game. We played fundamental football and we finished the season in the top of the league for TOP, and a winning defense.

You cant honestly fault Mike for the adjustments in his play calling but things did need to change, I hate it, but they did.

All we can do now as Fans is sit back and enjoy as our team goes through a rebuilding process and re-establishes itself as a contender in the league. I dont know about you guys but I'm incredibly excited to see a tenacious defense and strong running game back in Denver.

BroncoMan4ever
08-09-2009, 11:36 PM
I bet it takes Knowshon a week or so to catch up, just with the intensity of camp and conditioning once the pads come on with two a days starting tomorrow.

Not to mention spending all this hold out time in Georgia which might as well be sea level. Would have been smarter to train in Denver while waiting to iron out the contract thing but his agent obviously wasn't thinking of his what was best for Knowshon in the short term as well as the long run when he allowed him ... or likely told him to go back tgo Georgia as a further bargaining stance.

dude, have you been in that region of the USA? he has been working out there and he is going to be in good condition for it. the heat and humidity there is hard to train in. hell man, you can break a sweat going out the to get the paper in the morning.

JJJ
08-10-2009, 12:17 AM
The skipping like a soccer team ought to work well for them don't you think?

What's next gathering in a circle and kicking the ball to each other?

Cito Pelon
08-10-2009, 12:27 AM
I really hope you are drinking, because you sound absolutely insane right now.

Please. I'm with the consensus.

Hulamau
08-10-2009, 01:59 AM
dude, have you been in that region of the USA? he has been working out there and he is going to be in good condition for it. the heat and humidity there is hard to train in. hell man, you can break a sweat going out the to get the paper in the morning.

Never said he wasn't in shape only that he would take some time to re-acclimate to the altitude.. he's young he'll be fine, but he might also be dragging tail a bit more after a few 2 a days until he gets his lungs back as well.

Its not something to lose any sleep over, and I understand going back home during negotiations gives the appearance more of a hold out than would waiting around the corner at a local gym.

Anyway, it was just an observation and not a big deal in any event.

Hulamau
08-10-2009, 02:12 AM
This isn't high school training camp, it the NFL. Think what you want but training camp that is "hard and physical" will not improve physical performance like many are claiming in this thread.

The point, as McD has made perfectly clear, and also Belichick as well as the Steeler's and Ravens who also practice this 'sort out and cull the pussies' TC routine, is to not drive your players in the ground but be wise in the application of force and intensity balanced by rest and lighter practices.

A fact, that if you are paying attention at all, you will see McD is doing now! He staggers his two a days and only has some full on take down to the ground tackling occasionally, not all the time. Plus he has canceled some practices and shifted times, and also let off the gas in between at times as well.

Shanny would game plan the hell out of the first 4 games or so and come out ready for a track meet and often looked brilliant.

But as the recent seasons progressed and EVERY team started feeling the effects of real week in and week out football, Denver would tend to fade in not only the second half of the season, but also in the fourth quarter of individual games in the later half of the year.

While teams that worked smart AND hard during camp and had the right kind of players on their team to begin with as a result, tended to get stronger and were playing their best ball near the end when it really counts.

Shanny erred too much on the 'Lets Be Friends' Club-Med approach, thus losing his balance leaning too far toward the P***Y side of the coin! Ironically, he also seemed to wind up with more nagging non-contact strains and pulls kind of injuries as a result, according to this article, which makes a lot of sense.

broncobrandon
08-10-2009, 03:56 PM
I am new to this page and this is my 1st time replying to a thread so bare with me a little! It's good to see our Broncos going 'Back To The Basics'. I think it's going to play a HUGE part in the overall success and growth of this team. Now I love Shanny just as much as the next guy but he lost touch with what it takes to coach a competitive franchise in the NFL. From his scouting to who he signed to his training camp and practice methods and even his coaching decisions come game time, Mike Shannahan lost his magic. With all the changes that have happened in this organization (and there have been MANY!) it only makes sense to do it this way. I have faith in this team and in it's coaching staff and I believe Josh McDaniels is the right man for the job. (Here's to hoping I dont EAT these words in the near future!) I LOVE the fact that they run wind sprints before and after practice! I LOVE the non-stop hustle Josh McDaniels expects and demands of this football team! I LOVE how EVERYBODY on this team is expected to compete for they're job! Success in the NFL goes beyond physical talent and we all know this. This team is in desperate need of increased morale and Coach McDaniels is doing just that in my opinion. This organization needed a change of direction and Pat Bowlen made sure he orchestrated it and did a good job at doing so. Bottom line is this, as much as some of us hate to admit it, WE ARE REBUILDING! And in doing so, you need to get in touch with the basic fundamentals of football!

Cito Pelon
08-10-2009, 04:10 PM
I am new to this page and this is my 1st time replying to a thread so bare with me a little! It's good to see our Broncos going 'Back To The Basics'. I think it's going to play a HUGE part in the overall success and growth of this team. Now I love Shanny just as much as the next guy but he lost touch with what it takes to coach a competitive franchise in the NFL. From his scouting to who he signed to his training camp and practice methods and even his coaching decisions come game time, Mike Shannahan lost his magic. With all the changes that have happened in this organization (and there have been MANY!) it only makes sense to do it this way. I have faith in this team and in it's coaching staff and I believe Josh McDaniels is the right man for the job. (Here's to hoping I dont EAT these words in the near future!) I LOVE the fact that they run wind sprints before and after practice! I LOVE the non-stop hustle Josh McDaniels expects and demands of this football team! I LOVE how EVERYBODY on this team is expected to compete for they're job! Success in the NFL goes beyond physical talent and we all know this. This team is in desperate need of increased morale and Coach McDaniels is doing just that in my opinion. This organization needed a change of direction and Pat Bowlen made sure he orchestrated it and did a good job at doing so. Bottom line is this, as much as some of us hate to admit it, WE ARE REBUILDING! And in doing so, you need to get in touch with the basic fundamentals of football!

True.

BroncoDoug
08-10-2009, 04:28 PM
i am new to this page and this is my 1st time replying to a thread so bare with me a little! It's good to see our broncos going 'back to the basics'. I think it's going to play a huge part in the overall success and growth of this team. Now i love shanny just as much as the next guy but he lost touch with what it takes to coach a competitive franchise in the nfl. From his scouting to who he signed to his training camp and practice methods and even his coaching decisions come game time, mike shannahan lost his magic. With all the changes that have happened in this organization (and there have been many!) it only makes sense to do it this way. I have faith in this team and in it's coaching staff and i believe josh mcdaniels is the right man for the job. (here's to hoping i dont eat these words in the near future!) i love the fact that they run wind sprints before and after practice! I love the non-stop hustle josh mcdaniels expects and demands of this football team! I love how everybody on this team is expected to compete for they're job! Success in the nfl goes beyond physical talent and we all know this. This team is in desperate need of increased morale and coach mcdaniels is doing just that in my opinion. This organization needed a change of direction and pat bowlen made sure he orchestrated it and did a good job at doing so. Bottom line is this, as much as some of us hate to admit it, we are rebuilding! And in doing so, you need to get in touch with the basic fundamentals of football!


booooooooooooooooooo....liar!! ..boo

broncobrandon
08-12-2009, 04:20 PM
booooooooooooooooooo....liar!! ..boo
HATER!!! Lol

elpasojoe
08-13-2009, 01:35 PM
BroncoBrandon welcome to the board and I appreciate your comments. I also look forward to a more physical style of play (Orange Crush Anyone?) and I grew so frustrated with players not executing fundaments, esp. missed tackles.

broncobrandon
08-13-2009, 02:59 PM
BroncoBrandon welcome to the board and I appreciate your comments. I also look forward to a more physical style of play (Orange Crush Anyone?) and I grew so frustrated with players not executing fundaments, esp. missed tackles.

Thanx ElPasoJoe for the welcome! If the Denver Broncos can get anywhere close to the Orange Crush days or at least take steps towards reliving (Duplicating) those days, I will be satisfied. Even without Cry Baby Cutler, the Denver Broncos still have an explosive offense with many weapons. If the Denver Broncos can tighten the reigns on defense, imagine the possibilities!

BroncoDoug
08-13-2009, 11:03 PM
BroncoBrandon welcome to the board and I appreciate your comments. I also look forward to a more physical style of play (Orange Crush Anyone?) and I grew so frustrated with players not executing fundaments, esp. missed tackles.


Wait? So you didnt like watching Websters helmet flying off or Winborn celebrating a takle 24 yards down the field on a 3rd and 15?

Hmmm...