View Full Version : Would Jefferson recognize what some are attempting to turn us into?
Yup, he lived it, under King George. Most presidents over the past 100 years have moved to take power to themselves -- sometimes the system has worked and checks and ballances put folks back into their place, like Nixon. But in a crisis: FDR, Bush and Obama come to mind how quick we are to give up Liberty for percieved safety?
Some great quotes below:
And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are the gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with his wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just: that his justice cannot sleep for ever.
Thomas Jefferson, Notes on the State of Virginia, Query 18, 1781
Dependence begets subservience and venality, suffocates the germ of virtue, and prepares fit tools for the designs of ambition.
Thomas Jefferson, Notes on the State of Virginia, Query 19, 1787
Every government degenerates when trusted to the rulers of the people alone. The people themselves, therefore, are its only safe depositories.
Thomas Jefferson, Notes on the State of Virginia, Query 14, 1781
Rohirrim
08-07-2009, 12:01 PM
Do you know Jefferson was not Christian and didn't consider Jesus a divine being?
footstepsfrom#27
08-07-2009, 02:30 PM
Yup, he lived it, under King George. Most presidents over the past 100 years have moved to take power to themselves -- sometimes the system has worked and checks and ballances put folks back into their place, like Nixon. But in a crisis: FDR, Bush and Obama come to mind how quick we are to give up
Yeah...Obama belongs alongside Nixon, Bush and King George as a true despot. LOL
Do you do your own material or do you have writers?
Do you know Jefferson was not Christian and didn't consider Jesus a divine being?
Are you able to see coming despotism? Or only when you belatedly choose to disagree with them?
Yeah...Obama belongs alongside Nixon, Bush and King George as a true despot. LOL
Do you do your own material or do you have writers?
Its more in trend toward taking powers to themselves, not allowed -- despotism, does not materialize over night, but in drips and drabs. ...anyway, disagree with any statement quoted above?
Spider
08-07-2009, 11:35 PM
thinking of shaving my beard .......
mhgaffney
08-07-2009, 11:46 PM
FDR was a paradox. He came from a banking family -- yet referred to the Wall Street crowd as banksters.
FDR was not the problem, IMO.
But it is certainly true -- that the grievances of our founding fathers against King George were a trifling compared with the wholesale corruption and evil we are witnessing today.
No doubt, if Jefferson were among us he would support another revolution.
Yet, we seem to be a nation of chickenhearts rather than substance...
epicSocialism4tw
08-08-2009, 12:22 AM
Yup, he lived it, under King George. Most presidents over the past 100 years have moved to take power to themselves -- sometimes the system has worked and checks and ballances put folks back into their place, like Nixon. But in a crisis: FDR, Bush and Obama come to mind how quick we are to give up Liberty for percieved safety?
Some great quotes below:
And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are the gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with his wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just: that his justice cannot sleep for ever.
Thomas Jefferson, Notes on the State of Virginia, Query 18, 1781
Dependence begets subservience and venality, suffocates the germ of virtue, and prepares fit tools for the designs of ambition.
Thomas Jefferson, Notes on the State of Virginia, Query 19, 1787
Every government degenerates when trusted to the rulers of the people alone. The people themselves, therefore, are its only safe depositories.
Thomas Jefferson, Notes on the State of Virginia, Query 14, 1781
Those quotes cut to the bone.
Men are not capable of rewarding trust with justice. Our days of trusting in a higher moral and ethic are over as a country. The rich and powerful have convinced the common man to place their trust in them. In the god of government, and in the god of money.
I always think of Nine Inch Nails' song "Head Like a Hole" when this issue comes up.
Odysseus
08-08-2009, 05:30 AM
If Jefferson were to return he would want to bring Adams. It would be lonely for him in our times because he would have so few intelligent people to debate with. He would be offended by our allowing corporate government so much sway and that our free press was no longer free. He would hate a lot of how we enact policies and would be horrified to see some of the tripe we call legislation. Pork barrel legislation would offend him and the dishonesty we call spin would make him weep openly. There are few on this board who would understand a thing that he said and what is worst nobody would listen to his words because the archaic context would mean nothing to us.
I am afraid if you take Mr. Jefferson out of context you will miss the entire point of what he was talking about. You have to understand Alexander Hamilton. You have to understand why moving towards a strong central government made sense at that time. Jefferson admitted later he was wrong about a lot of things including his opinion about the press which actually turned decidedly negative. I don't think Mr Jefferson would think much of this forum. He would castigate the lot of us for our inability to sustain a conversation, lack of basic manners and our basic ignorance of concepts, history as well as command of the King's English.
No. I don't think Mr. Jefferson would have a high opinion of you or of me.
Odysseus
08-08-2009, 05:32 AM
thinking of shaving my beard .......
Thinking of shaving my head.
Rohirrim
08-08-2009, 06:58 AM
Are you able to see coming despotism? Or only when you belatedly choose to disagree with them?
Yes, and your side is driving the locomotive. The real irony here is that you don't see it.
defenseman
08-08-2009, 07:06 AM
FDR was a paradox. He came from a banking family -- yet referred to the Wall Street crowd as banksters.
FDR was not the problem, IMO.
But it is certainly true -- that the grievances of our founding fathers against King George were a trifling compared with the wholesale corruption and evil we are witnessing today.
No doubt, if Jefferson were among us he would support another revolution.
Yet, we seem to be a nation of chickenhearts rather than substance...
Speak for yourself moron.....dman
Rigs11
08-08-2009, 07:50 AM
Curious why you didn't bring up this thread during the last admin mr bipartisan.:rofl:
rastaman
08-08-2009, 04:00 PM
Yeah...Obama belongs alongside Nixon, Bush and King George as a true despot. LOL
Do you do your own material or do you have writers?
Yep he can't mess with the banks and wallstreet and the corporate titans......JFK tried and well......ya know the rest is history. In fact, Obama would find great difficulty moving capitalism back to where it was back in 1980 (Pre-Reagan). Hell Obama would have great difficulty even repealing NAFTA, CAFTA, and the WTO.
Its a sobering reality once you find out its not a President that runs the country. Again, the last President who thought he ran the country was JFK! Need I say more!
rastaman
08-08-2009, 04:24 PM
Yup, he lived it, under King George. Most presidents over the past 100 years have moved to take power to themselves -- sometimes the system has worked and checks and ballances put folks back into their place, like Nixon. But in a crisis: FDR, Bush and Obama come to mind how quick we are to give up Liberty for percieved safety?
Some great quotes below:
And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are the gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with his wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just: that his justice cannot sleep for ever.
Thomas Jefferson, Notes on the State of Virginia, Query 18, 1781
Dependence begets subservience and venality, suffocates the germ of virtue, and prepares fit tools for the designs of ambition.
Thomas Jefferson, Notes on the State of Virginia, Query 19, 1787
Every government degenerates when trusted to the rulers of the people alone. The people themselves, therefore, are its only safe depositories.
Thomas Jefferson, Notes on the State of Virginia, Query 14, 1781
Here's a quote from President Jefferson that errily rings true today but also blatantly ignored:
Banking establishments are more dangerous than standing armies
"The central bank is an institution of the most deadly hostility existing against the Principles and form of our Constitution. I am an Enemy to all banks discounting bills or notes for anything but Coin. If the American People allow private banks to control the issuance of their currency, first by inflation and then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the People of all their Property until their Children will wake up homeless on the continent their Fathers conquered."
Bronx33
08-08-2009, 04:40 PM
3/4 of the people making comments on this subject haven't even read this.
http://constitutionus.com/
Inkana7
08-08-2009, 09:00 PM
Dear God. Coming despotism? You people are idiots.
Rohirrim
08-08-2009, 09:15 PM
Dear God. Coming despotism? You people are idiots.
What is wrong with you? Don't you realize that if this socialist tyrant Obama gets his way illegal aliens are going to be performing abortions on our euthanized grandmas?
Odysseus
08-08-2009, 09:36 PM
3/4 of the people making comments on this subject haven't even read this.
http://constitutionus.com/
I don't think you realize what you are expecting. Most people do not read entire posts much less something of that magnitude. If you started a thread on this alone I would be curious to see who would post on that thread.
What is your opinion of this fine document. Let's assume you have read it. What parts would you like to highlight or focus on? :)
rastaman
08-08-2009, 10:01 PM
3/4 of the people making comments on this subject haven't even read this.
http://constitutionus.com/
The constituition isn't etched in stone.....its a living document.
AbileneBroncoFan
08-09-2009, 02:29 AM
"I am not among those who fear the people. They, and not the rich, are our dependence for continued freedom." -Thomas Jefferson
Thomas Jefferson would be appalled at how the wealthy in this country contain such a profound influence on how things are run. He would also be ashamed at how the Christian fundamentalists try to put the 10 commandments up in court houses, put "intelligent design" in schools, and how the political sphere has been warped so that one has virtually no chance of being elected president without being "Christian." (I doubt all of the modern presidents really are, but they do have to put on the perception that they are; a practicing Muslim or Hindu would not even get a nomination, even if they were profoundly qualified).
rastaman
08-09-2009, 05:48 AM
"I am not among those who fear the people. They, and not the rich, are our dependence for continued freedom." -Thomas Jefferson
Thomas Jefferson would be appalled at how the wealthy in this country contain such a profound influence on how things are run. He would also be ashamed at how the Christian fundamentalists try to put the 10 commandments up in court houses, put "intelligent design" in schools, and how the political sphere has been warped so that one has virtually no chance of being elected president without being "Christian." (I doubt all of the modern presidents really are, but they do have to put on the perception that they are; a practicing Muslim or Hindu would not even get a nomination, even if they were profoundly qualified).
"Aristocrats fear the people, and wish to transfer all power to
the higher classes of society." --Thomas Jefferson to William
Short, 1825.
Bronx33
08-09-2009, 11:18 AM
I don't think you realize what you are expecting. Most people do not read entire posts much less something of that magnitude. If you started a thread on this alone I would be curious to see who would post on that thread.
What is your opinion of this fine document. Let's assume you have read it. What parts would you like to highlight or focus on? :)
Funny you should ask no i haven't read it since school and that was a big blurr but you have to admit it's pretty boring a written that way, most people wouldn't understand it it anyways but i have got this on order and plan to read it soon i want to understand.
http://search.barnesandnoble.com/The-Peoples-Guide-to-the-United-States-Constitution/Dave-Kluge/e/9781888045222
also http://www.theconstitutionmadeeasy.com/
Iam guessing you do understand my point though.
Yes, and your side is driving the locomotive. The real irony here is that you don't see it.
Both sides are moving in the same basic direction (sometimes the same tracks) but if we switch an engenieer, and speed up on the same track (WHEN IT COMES TO MANY FEEDOMS) 1/2 the nation falls asleep for four to eight years. I imagine, in four years we will get another President, who will do the same thing, I pray that is not going to happen, but it would take so much courage to standup to 100 years of history, and would be unpopular with many as it would decrease dependance, which would be a painful experience.
The constituition isn't etched in stone.....its a living document.
Defined as such, it becomes a government tool, where Liberty does not flow from God, with Liberties that are eternal and unchanging. If one believes that core Liberties are lent to the people by the state, the state can rightly take those liberties away. That thinking leads to the Constitution being manipulated, twisted, and ignored by those in power, which again leads to tyrany. "Right or Left, it wont matter. IF the consititution is changed by vote of Congress (3/4) if I remember correctly -- then fine, an admendment can be added to the guiding document.
But the basic Liberties we have, the Founding Fathers believed, were something we were all born with -- in that way we are all created equal and can not be rightly taken by any government. But in fact, WE lend the powers to govern in our behalf, and elecetd officials should serve to be watch dogs for those freedoms, instaed of what has happend for over one hundred years. It started before Wilson, Teddy Roosevelt engaged in various power grabs.
Rohirrim
08-10-2009, 11:45 AM
Both sides are moving in the same basic direction (sometimes the same tracks) but if we switch an engenieer, and speed up on the same track (WHEN IT COMES TO MANY FEEDOMS) 1/2 the nation falls asleep for four to eight years. I imagine, in four years we will get another President, who will do the same thing, I pray that is not going to happen, but it would take so much courage to standup to 100 years of history, and would be unpopular with many as it would decrease dependance, which would be a painful experience.
English please, Borat.
rastaman
08-10-2009, 12:27 PM
Defined as such, it becomes a government tool, where Liberty does not flow from God, with Liberties that are eternal and unchanging. If one believes that core Liberties are lent to the people by the state, the state can rightly take those liberties away. That thinking leads to the Constitution being manipulated, twisted, and ignored by those in power, which again leads to tyrany. "Right or Left, it wont matter. IF the consititution is changed by vote of Congress (3/4) if I remember correctly -- then fine, an admendment can be added to the guiding document.
But the basic Liberties we have, the Founding Fathers believed, were something we were all born with -- in that way we are all created equal and can not be rightly taken by any government. But in fact, WE lend the powers to govern in our behalf, and elecetd officials should serve to be watch dogs for those freedoms, instaed of what has happend for over one hundred years. It started before Wilson, Teddy Roosevelt engaged in various power grabs.
Point well taken. However, how would the Founders view the following:
The current Corporate greed and corruption we see today.
How would the Founders view how powerful the Banks and Wall Street are today.
How would the Founders view America trade policies as they currently are.
How would Congress view the influence on our Democracy the Military Industrialize complex has on our country and budget.
English please, Borat.
Your a bright guy, I think you know where I am coming from.
Obama is going the same way as Bush, and ignores personal Liberties -- government size and power are also growing under both parties, for the past 100 years. When an R is in charge the D's wake up, whan a D is in charge the R's wake up, but I dont think that we really wakeup to an out of control government -- if we are ok with abuses of an R, if we happen to be right of center. What it shows me is that we see the world in right and left terms, when we shoudl be thinking of Liberty vs tyrany terms (or up and down.)
Bronx33
08-10-2009, 04:02 PM
Your a bright guy, I think you know where I am coming from.
Obama is going the same way as Bush, and ignores personal Liberties -- government size and power are also growing under both parties, for the past 100 years. When an R is in charge the D's wake up, whan a D is in charge the R's wake up, but I dont think that we really wakeup to an out of control government -- if we are ok with abuses of an R, if we happen to be right of center. What it shows me is that we see the world in right and left terms, when we shoudl be thinking of Liberty vs tyrany terms (or up and down.)
I tend to agree the D and R each have their own set of problems/shortfalls greed being the main one that holds back real progress and prosperity but since it's ones party those people most likely to overlook it and you're right everybody is in the same boat when the dust settles.
Point well taken. However, how would the Founders view the following:
The current Corporate greed and corruption we see today.
How would the Founders view how powerful the Banks and Wall Street are today.
How would the Founders view America trade policies as they currently are.
How would Congress view the influence on our Democracy the Military Industrialize complex has on our country and budget.
Trying to be honest here:
On greed -- not sure -- "greed" implies that you are willing to be dishonest to make a buck -- and everything I have read of the founders, state outwardly that one needs to have integrity in personal and well as public matters. Washington and Franklyn both spoke about "self-interest" of capitalism helping to create more wealth through increased motivation and industry -- they believed that self-interest should be harnessed -- not ignored (like in some political systems like the Republic implied) -- so in that sense capitalism can turn self-interest into a positive, if “we remain a moral people” and honesty is used in that pursuit.
Banking: Jefferson would have been sick over the banking situation -- Hamilton I'm not sure about, as he and Jefferson were at odds over a national bank. But corruption whether in government or in business would have been seen then as the cancer that it is.
On Trade: I just read yesterday about Washington’s views on the topic -- he felt that we should be neutral and "disinterested" and not favor any nation above another in regard to trade -- that we should not become entangled in European matters -- and think that one country is a friend and have the same interests. He did not seem like a protectionist, but more of a separatist. I think they would almost all agree that we are too beholden to other nation’s interests, and slaves to our debt and unwise promises, and treaties.
On Military -- again with Washington and Benjamin, they saw the need for a strong military -- not for conquest, but to protect our own interests -- after all at the time Spain, England and France had an interest and stake in the resources and land that were here -- if the fledgling government faltered, they would have been only too happy to take advantage. But a strong military does not mean, they would have been ok with undue influence of business over the affairs of government -- but on this point, I have not read anything that would back up my feelings.
Odysseus
08-10-2009, 06:03 PM
Funny you should ask no i haven't read it since school and that was a big blurr but you have to admit it's pretty boring a written that way, most people wouldn't understand it it anyways but i have got this on order and plan to read it soon i want to understand.
http://search.barnesandnoble.com/The-Peoples-Guide-to-the-United-States-Constitution/Dave-Kluge/e/9781888045222
also http://www.theconstitutionmadeeasy.com/
Iam guessing you do understand my point though.
I understood your point. I read it just because. It's a simple document really but the truth be told we've lost sight of it's elegance and sincerity. How do you bring an entire nation back towards itself? I don't have that answer and I doubt any politician in Washington does either.
Northman
08-10-2009, 06:05 PM
FDR was a paradox. He came from a banking family -- yet referred to the Wall Street crowd as banksters.
FDR was not the problem, IMO.
But it is certainly true -- that the grievances of our founding fathers against King George were a trifling compared with the wholesale corruption and evil we are witnessing today.
No doubt, if Jefferson were among us he would support another revolution.
Yet, we seem to be a nation of chickenhearts rather than substance...
Yea, because spilling more blood makes sense.
Yea, because spilling more blood makes sense.
Jefferson would use the system he helped create to change it... they petitioned with "humility" those powers that oppressed them. I will say that some of the rage we see growing is amplified when those in power (pelosi comes to mind) imply that real folks speaking out (and those not inclined to do so) is a fabricated, staged effort -- that arrogance tends to esculate bad behavor -- not get rid of it.
Northman
08-10-2009, 06:51 PM
Jefferson would use the system he helped create to change it... they petitioned with "humility" those powers that oppressed them. I will say that some of the rage we see growing is amplified when those in power (pelosi comes to mind) imply that real folks speaking out (and those not inclined to do so) is a fabricated, staged effort -- that arrogance tends to esculate bad behavor -- not get rid of it.
Yet Gaff said that Jefferson would support another revolution. Hence, my comment.
Yet Gaff said that Jefferson would support another revolution. Hence, my comment.
I agree with you, we still have redress for our concerns...and should not and cannot go beyond legal means to express discontent, to do so would be an insult to the Founders of this nation.
What I hope is that those in power will address the concerns brought up also in legal ways and opporate within the confines and scope of the Constitution -- now that would be the first time in 100 years, but that is my hope.