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View Full Version : Bly Blames "soft" coverage for D woes


Lolad
08-05-2009, 06:13 AM
http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_12993576
Now it can be told.

The Broncos' defense allowed 28.0 points per game last season to rank 30th in the 32-team NFL. Former Broncos cornerback Dre Bly, now playing for the San Francisco 49ers, directed much of the blame at the scheme devised by former Denver defensive coordinator Bob Slowik.

"Defensively, we were awful," Bly told the San Jose Mercury News. "The D-coordinator — not to blame anything on him — but we didn't really have the personnel for what he was trying to run. We were too soft in coverage. And when you have two corners like me and Champ, you can't be soft in coverage. We were into disguising a lot, and it just didn't work."

The "soft" coverage gripe was first presented by cornerback Karl Paymah after the Broncos' 26-17 home loss to Miami. In that game, Dolphins receiver Greg Camarillo had 11 catches for 111 yards. Paymah said he was ordered to back off and allow Camarillo to catch the ball in front of him.

The Broncos' defense posted a league-low 13 takeaways last year.

"It made it look like I was probably soft in coverage, like I was scared," Bly said. "I ain't scared of nobody.

"I didn't want to bring any conflict or any beef to the team. I did what I had to do. But it ended up hurting me at the end."

521 1N5
08-05-2009, 06:18 AM
Yeah okay- Face it Bly, you just aren't as good as you think you are. Every year it's a different excuse with this guy. And he never blames himself.

tsiguy96
08-05-2009, 06:20 AM
Yeah okay- Face it Bly, you just aren't as good as you think you are. Every year it's a different excuse with this guy. And he never blames himself.

no, this time hes 100% right. if you have good press corners that are aggressive ballhawk type players, you use them like that. slowik is too damn stupid to make a scheme that fits the abilities of his players.

RhymesayersDU
08-05-2009, 06:25 AM
Yeah, I know a lot of people will end up bashing Bly here, but none of that was his fault.

Is/was he a great corner? No. But the positions the coaches put him in were horrendous. He either had to play 10 yards off the ball and/or he was on an island with zero help behind him because safeties had to stop the run. He was set up to fail in our defense last year.

montrose
08-05-2009, 06:26 AM
And Shanny wanted to keep this guy...

tsiguy96
08-05-2009, 06:27 AM
And Shanny wanted to keep this guy...

shanny still wants to keep this guy, they are butt buddies at all the other teams camps...

thinking back to last years d, im very very glad we addressed the secondary early and often, its painful to think about them last year.

broncofan7
08-05-2009, 06:28 AM
All one had to do was read these message boards and watch ONE Broncos game to realize that what Bly said was true.........nothing novel here

Beantown Bronco
08-05-2009, 06:30 AM
I've always been, and still am, a big Bly supporter; but the one thing I think he's wrong about here is including Champ in this. It's an undeniable fact that Champ likes to play more off coverage as opposed to press coverage, both so he can watch the QB for an extra second or two and so that he can bait the QB into throwing his way. He has most of his success (and INTs) playing "soft".

Bly, however, did go on record with his displeasure of this type of scheme in Detroit, so he is at least consistent. It was clearly not a good scheme for him.

dbfan21
08-05-2009, 06:46 AM
yeah, i know a lot of people will end up bashing bly here, but none of that was his fault.

Is/was he a great corner? No. But the positions the coaches put him in were horrendous. He either had to play 10 yards off the ball and/or he was on an island with zero help behind him because safeties had to stop the run. He was set up to fail in our defense last year.

+1

UberBroncoMan
08-05-2009, 06:47 AM
I've always been, and still am, a big Bly supporter; but the one thing I think he's wrong about here is including Champ in this. It's an undeniable fact that Champ likes to play more off coverage as opposed to press coverage, both so he can watch the QB for an extra second or two and so that he can bait the QB into throwing his way. He has most of his success (and INTs) playing "soft".

Bly, however, did go on record with his displeasure of this type of scheme in Detroit, so he is at least consistent. It was clearly not a good scheme for him.

We also had practically no safeties to help throughout the season. Barrett did an fine job at the end of the season when he was finally allowed to play, but still... if feel bad for any CB last year.

ELEVATION
08-05-2009, 07:15 AM
I've always been, and still am, a big Bly supporter; but the one thing I think he's wrong about here is including Champ in this. It's an undeniable fact that Champ likes to play more off coverage as opposed to press coverage, both so he can watch the QB for an extra second or two and so that he can bait the QB into throwing his way. He has most of his success (and INTs) playing "soft".

Bly, however, did go on record with his displeasure of this type of scheme in Detroit, so he is at least consistent. It was clearly not a good scheme for him.

with regards to champ he prefers 3-5 yds off, but at times last year he was eight to 12....bly prefers press as did foxworth and paymah.....slowik was a clown with the way he used those guys, same with how he used hazma.

the secondary was a huge struggle last year, we picked manuel up and started him even though he was mediocre in carolina and we picked mcree up fresh off a bad year in san diego, which he proved wasnt a fluke....

our CB depth was next to nill with a fresh rookie in jack williams, and a UDFA rookie in josh bell....not to mention poor use of paymah and the trade of foxworth....


people dont realize how much the secondary caused our problems last year, not neccessarily the players but the scheme and the coverages....

we actually were doing well against the run the first 4 games of the year, but are pass defense was atrocious because of teh scheme and playcalling. to fix that incompetent slowik decided to implement a 3-4 front with 308Lb weak as Dewayne robertson as the NT, and the proceded to use guys like jarvis moss for RDE even in 3-4 looks.

its no coiencedence that the KC game when LJ went off was the start of our run defense issues. we had gaps everywhere becasue players didnt know how to play the 3-4, we didnt have personnel, and the secondary couldnt tackle well enough to hide the fact our DL wasnt coached and didnt have a clue. After the mid season 3-4 BS, by the time we scrapped it and got guys back to normal injuries hit.....and we were f....then slowik decided the remedy would be calvin lowry, hernza jones, prevent d, and josh barret at PR....lol

im telling you right now the reason we addressed the secondary so much was becasue on tape thats what was noticable....the most....


we will be a better team on defense this year, i dont expect a top 15 run defense more like 20 or 21 ranked, but our scoring defense,turnovers, sacks, and pass defense will be much much improved.....




our Cb depth is fileld with 2 physical ballhawk nickle CB's for depth in JMFW and smith, a promising youngster in josh bell, and 2 wiley vets in goodman and bailey.....both of who are great in run support, tackling and pass defense.

our safties are filled with a improving hill, a elite pro bowl vet in dawkins, 2 very talented but new rookies, and a beast in barrett who flashed serious potential last year.....as well as a solid vet in vernon fox....

i am much more confident about this group than last year.......

Garcia Bronco
08-05-2009, 07:15 AM
Yeah okay- Face it Bly, you just aren't as good as you think you are. Every year it's a different excuse with this guy. And he never blames himself.

Bly is 100 percent correct

outdoor_miner
08-05-2009, 07:25 AM
You left out a pretty interesting parts of the article:

In defense of the Broncos' defensive coaches, they held season-ending evaluations of their players before they would be fired along with head coach Mike Shanahan.

According to one coach, the consensus was the first player that had to be replaced was Bly, who made roughly $17 million in his two years here.

Nate Webster would have been at the top of my list, although that may not be fair since our D-Line sucked so bad.

lex
08-05-2009, 07:25 AM
Bly is right on this one. It was a huge problem. A 10 yard cushion on 3rd and 5!!!??? WTF! It completely undermined the pass rush too. If youre a QB and the other team is giving you a quick slant for a first down, why would you ever hold on to the ball long enough to be sacked. The scheme was dreadful.

Irish Stout
08-05-2009, 07:28 AM
It drove me nuts last year - from my perspective, Bly is right. Every single game the CB guys were way off their receivers.... sometimes 15 yards off and it was terrible.

Drek
08-05-2009, 07:29 AM
Yeah okay- Face it Bly, you just aren't as good as you think you are. Every year it's a different excuse with this guy. And he never blames himself.

Really? He didn't make too many excuses when he went to two consecutive pro-bowls, in '05 when he was still a top end corner, or his entire early career when he was an elite nickel corner on a Rams team that won a superbowl and appeared in another when he was a 2nd and 3rd year player in this league.

The guy was an elite corner for a WHILE in this league. Has he lost a step? Probably, but weak teammates and the prevent-lite defense that Marinelli and Slowick have both tried to have him play in the last few years are the real culprits for why he's been on bad D's lately.

Br0nc0Buster
08-05-2009, 07:34 AM
Just a pathetic scheme

The whole point was to prevent big plays, yet they still gave up big plays....a lot of them

apparently to run Slowiks scheme you need an all pro defenive line and an all pro secondary, and you need to play a team that sucks on offense

Gcver2ver3
08-05-2009, 07:44 AM
Yeah okay- Face it Bly, you just aren't as good as you think you are. Every year it's a different excuse with this guy. And he never blames himself.

you cannot be serious...did you watch the Broncos last season?...

Bly is 150% right...the coverage was so soft, deion sanders and rod woodson would've struggled on our D last year...

Irish Stout
08-05-2009, 07:45 AM
Just a pathetic scheme

The whole point was to prevent big plays, yet they still gave up big plays....a lot of them

apparently to run Slowiks scheme you need an all pro defenive line and an all pro secondary, and you need to play a team that sucks on offense

Slowik schemes were prevent Ds like 70% of the time. Madden said it best when he said something along the lines of "I finally figured out why they call it a prevent defense, I think the only thing it prevents you from doing is playing defense."

lex
08-05-2009, 07:46 AM
Yeah okay- Face it Bly, you just aren't as good as you think you are. Every year it's a different excuse with this guy. And he never blames himself.

Youre right but in this case, he's 100% right.

Beantown Bronco
08-05-2009, 07:47 AM
apparently to run Slowiks scheme you need an all pro defenive line and an all pro secondary, and you need to play a team that sucks on offense

Nolan's as well, if you read his quotes in the other thread.....

misturanderson
08-05-2009, 07:52 AM
Don't let Taco in here. He was giving us all a lecture yesterday in the Shanahan at Patriots thread about how Slowick should get a pass for last year because he "didn't have time to fully implement his scheme" and needed another draft of strictly defensive players to show whether or not he was a good D-coordinator. What a joke.

Anyone with eyes should have been able to tell that Slowick was single-handedly preventing what little talent we had from reaching any sort of potential. We were not the least talented defense in the league last year, we just didn't play our best players and the players that were in were put into positions to fail (see ridiculous cushions, 6'6" 240 lb. DE in 3-4, etc.).

The fact that Shanahan is toting that POS around with him shows how much of a nepotist he is, yet people that want him back constantly speak badly of McD for his nepotism.

521 1N5
08-05-2009, 07:52 AM
I'm not defending Slowiks D by any means. I'm just not defending Bly's either. Guy has a big mouth, and yes I watched every second of every game last season. There were times where he bumped the man at the line and still got torched.

521 1N5
08-05-2009, 07:57 AM
And I'm also not gonna sit here and read comments about putting him in the same category as Champ, Deion and Woodson. Those guys would have found a way to adapt.

Gcver2ver3
08-05-2009, 08:00 AM
I'm not defending Slowiks D by any means. I'm just not defending Bly's either. Guy has a big mouth, and yes I watched every second of every game last season. There were times where he bumped the man at the line and still got torched.

Bly wasn't great last season...

but he played his heart out on the lousiest defense in football...

quite frankly he could've griped A LOT more and didn't...he played...

i have no problem with Bly at all...i wish him the best...

Gcver2ver3
08-05-2009, 08:01 AM
And I'm also not gonna sit here and read comments about putting him in the same category as Champ, Deion and Woodson. Those guys would have found a way to adapt.

if it's 3rd and 5 and you're 15yds off the LOS you can't stop a 5yd button hook no matter who you are...thats just plain common sense...

Mediator12
08-05-2009, 08:03 AM
And I'm also not gonna sit here and read comments about putting him in the same category as Champ, Deion and Woodson. Those guys would have found a way to adapt.

That's funny, because Champ did not ;D In the games he played in 2007 and 2008 he was below league average in YPA and Yards per completion. Plus, his targets increased 100% from 2006 to 2007. The man was the top CB in YPA in 2006 with 4.7 YPA and a mere 54th in 2007.

So, I think its real hard to say with any reliability that Champ would have done OK. He was still a top 5 CB, but he lost his effectiveness in production under that scheme. He became an average performer behind that.

DBroncos4life
08-05-2009, 08:12 AM
Bly never should cut

Gcver2ver3
08-05-2009, 08:14 AM
Bly never should cut
never shoulda been cut you mean?...

if so i don't disagree if he was willing to take a pay cut...

with that said, he'd have a tough time beating out Goodman/Smith/JMFW for a corner spot...

DBroncos4life
08-05-2009, 08:18 AM
never shoulda been cut you mean?...

if so i don't disagree if he was willing to take a pay cut...

with that said, he'd have a tough time beating out Goodman/Smith/JMFW for a corner spot...

Goodman is a one year wonder. All camp reports tell me just that, plus Bly would have been cheaper then Goodman anyways.

521 1N5
08-05-2009, 08:24 AM
It was just ****ty all around. Lack of talent an a definite lack of play play calling ability for the tools available. Don't be so quick to defend Dre Bly is all I'm saying. The true test will obviously be how he works out in Manusky's system. Don't be surprised to see another article just like this one next year at this time tho.

Kaylore
08-05-2009, 08:24 AM
No goodman and Hill have been solid. They aren't flashy but they are consistent. Bly would have been fine to keep if his contract wasn't bloated for a second string corner. Also Nolan prefers physical corners and that's not Bly's game.

The biggest thing to take away from this is that it puts context on the "Bly loves Slowick" comment. I think Bly really liked Slowick the man and Slowick the position coach, but they, and probably everyone else, didn't care for Slowick the DC. What wasn't revealed in that game is Paymah played more press in Miami and got a pick and he was reprimanded and benched for several games for doing so because it wasn't the "scheme" and considered insubordination.

521 1N5
08-05-2009, 08:27 AM
Paymah was garbage. I can't remember exactly which game it was but he broke up a play in the closing seconds of a game to preserve a win last season and that was literally the ONLY thing he did for the Broncos. I'm usually not this negative, however like I said before an extreme lack of talent also contributed.

TonyR
08-05-2009, 08:41 AM
Bly is right on this one. It was a huge problem. A 10 yard cushion on 3rd and 5!!!??? WTF! It completely undermined the pass rush too. If youre a QB and the other team is giving you a quick slant for a first down, why would you ever hold on to the ball long enough to be sacked. The scheme was dreadful.

But Bowlen sold us out by getting rid of the head coach and d-coordinator who allowed this to happen. Right?

Kaylore
08-05-2009, 08:42 AM
Paymah also had that interception as I said. And Bly isn't garbage. He was supposed to be the second corner opposite Bailey and ended up having to start because of injury and play behind a crappy defensive line in a horrid scheme. That's not Bly's fault. Any corner looks crappy in those circumstances.

Mediator12
08-05-2009, 08:49 AM
Paymah was garbage. I can't remember exactly which game it was but he broke up a play in the closing seconds of a game to preserve a win last season and that was literally the ONLY thing he did for the Broncos. I'm usually not this negative, however like I said before an extreme lack of talent also contributed.

Again, Paymah was never allowed to play the style of football he was drafted to play. The year he did in 2007 he was one of the most effective CB's in the league per attempt. The common misperception is that he is worthless. However, the kid is a press man CB not a zone CB. The problem is Slowick could never build a system that could cover over the weakness of a terrible Pass rush to defend the back four in coverage. That is why He was in PIT with shanahan checking out the Steelers 3-4 zone blitz scheme.....

I think playing in more CB friendly defenses will severely increase the effectiveness of Both Foxworth and Paymah this year....

underrated29
08-05-2009, 08:58 AM
Paymah was garbage. I can't remember exactly which game it was but he broke up a play in the closing seconds of a game to preserve a win last season and that was literally the ONLY thing he did for the Broncos. I'm usually not this negative, however like I said before an extreme lack of talent also contributed.


I dont know you but you sound an awful lot like sandy clough. He has had it out for bly since we traded for him.

I like bly and he is the scapegoat for our defense last year. But as others have said and we all have been saying it since like game 3 of last year. Bob slowick is the worst DC to ever be in the NFL!!! He is a disgrace to DC.

He has only been the DC twice i believe. Go look up his defensive ranking for his last stint in Green Bay! They were like us, nearly dead last in EVERY CATEGORY!

They ditched him and suddenly their defense wasnt so bad. This is not a cooincidence this is fact. I know (0) about Defensive coaching and I promise i could have coahced the broncos D better.

bfoflcommish
08-05-2009, 09:00 AM
sooooo i'm to believe the soft coverage is also why bly got beat deep or missed tackels also??????

Popps
08-05-2009, 09:02 AM
http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_12993576
Now it can be told.

The Broncos' defense allowed 28.0 points per game last season to rank 30th in the 32-team NFL. Former Broncos cornerback Dre Bly, now playing for the San Francisco 49ers, directed much of the blame at the scheme devised by former Denver defensive coordinator Bob Slowik.

"Defensively, we were awful," Bly told the San Jose Mercury News. "The D-coordinator — not to blame anything on him — but we didn't really have the personnel for what he was trying to run. We were too soft in coverage. And when you have two corners like me and Champ, you can't be soft in coverage. We were into disguising a lot, and it just didn't work."

The "soft" coverage gripe was first presented by cornerback Karl Paymah after the Broncos' 26-17 home loss to Miami. In that game, Dolphins receiver Greg Camarillo had 11 catches for 111 yards. Paymah said he was ordered to back off and allow Camarillo to catch the ball in front of him.

The Broncos' defense posted a league-low 13 takeaways last year.

"It made it look like I was probably soft in coverage, like I was scared," Bly said. "I ain't scared of nobody.

"I didn't want to bring any conflict or any beef to the team. I did what I had to do. But it ended up hurting me at the end."


To think, we were a Kansas City onside kick screw-up away from retaining this defensive philosophy.

TheDave
08-05-2009, 09:18 AM
Bad Defensive Coordinator + very little talent + a rash of injuries = The worst defense I have ever seen.

Trying to pin this on any one thing is a joke. EVERYTHING was bad.

Peoples Champ
08-05-2009, 09:20 AM
http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_12993576
Now it can be told.
Paymah said he was ordered to back off and allow Camarillo to catch the ball in front of him.

B]



I saw this all the time and was like wtf? I actually believe Dre after all the smack talk I threw at him last year.

Gcver2ver3
08-05-2009, 09:23 AM
Paymah also had that interception as I said. And Bly isn't garbage. He was supposed to be the second corner opposite Bailey and ended up having to start because of injury and play behind a crappy defensive line in a horrid scheme. That's not Bly's fault. Any corner looks crappy in those circumstances.

Exactly...

Gcver2ver3
08-05-2009, 09:25 AM
To think, we were a Kansas City onside kick screw-up away from retaining this defensive philosophy.

Dwayne Bowe for president!...

Lolad
08-05-2009, 10:21 AM
No goodman and Hill have been solid. They aren't flashy but they are consistent. Bly would have been fine to keep if his contract wasn't bloated for a second string corner. Also Nolan prefers physical corners and that's not Bly's game.

The biggest thing to take away from this is that it puts context on the "Bly loves Slowick" comment. I think Bly really liked Slowick the man and Slowick the position coach, but they, and probably everyone else, didn't care for Slowick the DC. What wasn't revealed in that game is Paymah played more press in Miami and got a pick and he was reprimanded and benched for several games for doing so because it wasn't the "scheme" and considered insubordination.

Where'd you get this information from?

underrated29
08-05-2009, 10:24 AM
Where'd you get this information from?


I remember reading in the after game reports. I think the DP or RMN had some stuff on it.

Brandon Marshall also hinted at it a little bit (iirc) in his post game interview when he was pissed and was like i dont even know this miami players name. He is not good and the dolphins are not better than us.

But it was reported.

gyldenlove
08-05-2009, 10:34 AM
No goodman and Hill have been solid. They aren't flashy but they are consistent. Bly would have been fine to keep if his contract wasn't bloated for a second string corner. Also Nolan prefers physical corners and that's not Bly's game.

The biggest thing to take away from this is that it puts context on the "Bly loves Slowick" comment. I think Bly really liked Slowick the man and Slowick the position coach, but they, and probably everyone else, didn't care for Slowick the DC. What wasn't revealed in that game is Paymah played more press in Miami and got a pick and he was reprimanded and benched for several games for doing so because it wasn't the "scheme" and considered insubordination.

Calling Goodman consistent seems wrong.

He had an impressive 1.2 INT per year in his first 6 years in the league to go with 7 PDs per years. In 2008 he had 5 INTs and 19 PDs, 4 times as many INTs as his average before 2008 and 3 times as many PDs as his average before 2008. The only consistency in him before 2008 was his below average play.

Hill has been consistently average with some awful teams. As a side note Hill has lost 64 games and won 39 meaning his career average is 5-8 per season.

~Crash~
08-05-2009, 10:38 AM
Bly won a game for us last year last second tackle to win that game. tell me of one time DJ Williams has done that ? Hell tell me one time DJ has made a 4th down I am not joking the guy is worthless .

Lolad
08-05-2009, 10:43 AM
Bly won a game for us last year last second tackle to win that game. tell me of one time DJ Williams has done that ? Hell tell me one time DJ has made a 4th down I am not joking the guy is worthless .

The 3rd and 1 stop in the final minutes vs the Saints. To make them kick a long field goal

Inkana7
08-05-2009, 11:06 AM
The 3rd and 1 stop in the final minutes vs the Saints. To make them kick a long field goal

Bam.

lex
08-05-2009, 11:09 AM
The 3rd and 1 stop in the final minutes vs the Saints. To make them kick a long field goal


Wasnt there a short yardage stop at the end of the first hald in that game as well?

Kaylore
08-05-2009, 11:27 AM
Where'd you get this information from?

It was everywhere but if you're really wondering go look at why Paymah suddenly stopped starting after that game.

s0phr0syne
08-05-2009, 11:29 AM
Calling Goodman consistent seems wrong.

He had an impressive 1.2 INT per year in his first 6 years in the league to go with 7 PDs per years. In 2008 he had 5 INTs and 19 PDs, 4 times as many INTs as his average before 2008 and 3 times as many PDs as his average before 2008. The only consistency in him before 2008 was his below average play.

Hill has been consistently average with some awful teams. As a side note Hill has lost 64 games and won 39 meaning his career average is 5-8 per season.



In the last few days, you've been one of the weirdest posters that I've noticed.

You're not going to the camps, and yet you seem to extract really, REALLY baseless opinions from a sentence here or a lack of a sentence there.

Your criticism of Bruton was great illustration of this, and again here in this thread you're trying to discredit Goodman not for bad play, but rather for not having his name in the camp reports enough.

You might be right, but I'm saying that you have no proof or even firsthand observations for the stupid stuff that you've been saying and arguing.

As for the comment about Goodman being consistent, I think Kaylore is talking about how he looks in camp, in terms of not getting beat and having good coverage. I agree that we haven't read about Goodman having any awesome PDs or INTs, but at the same time I don't recall reading much about getting beat either.

Goodman's career stats aren't that great--you're right on that. However, I remember reading that he'd been injury plagued early on in his career and as a result it took a while for him to put it all together. We'll see if McD's assessment was right, but if Goodman can continue his play at the same level as last year, it seems like we got a good steal in FA. I mean, I concede that he MIGHT be a one year wonder, but unless you've watched him play, I really doubt that you are making that judgement fairly.

tsiguy96
08-05-2009, 11:31 AM
cant believe people are sticking up for slowick still, blaming the talent. his job is to put teh team in position to win, the fact that multiple players complained about (last year dj williams said he wasnt sure what hes supposed to be doing out there, bly complained earlier this year, and several other players being happy about being on an aggressive defense) it should be proof enough, but apparently you guys sitting at home know more.

DBroncos4life
08-05-2009, 11:36 AM
In the last few days, you've been one of the weirdest posters that I've noticed.

You're not going to the camps, and yet you seem to extract really, REALLY baseless opinions from a sentence here or a lack of a sentence there.

Your criticism of Bruton was great illustration of this, and again here in this thread you're trying to discredit Goodman not for bad play, but rather for not having his name in the camp reports enough.

You might be right, but I'm saying that you have no proof or even firsthand observations for the stupid stuff that you've been saying and arguing.

As for the comment about Goodman being consistent, I think Kaylore is talking about how he looks in camp, in terms of not getting beat and having good coverage. I agree that we haven't read about Goodman having any awesome PDs or INTs, but at the same time I don't recall reading much about getting beat either.

Goodman's career stats aren't that great--you're right on that. However, I remember reading that he'd been injury plagued early on in his career and as a result it took a while for him to put it all together. We'll see if McD's assessment was right, but if Goodman can continue his play at the same level as last year, it seems like we got a good steal in FA. I mean, I concede that he MIGHT be a one year wonder, but unless you've watched him play, I really doubt that you are making that judgement fairly.

In two reports from Buff he has been less then impressed with Goodman, so right there we have conflicting reports from two of our camp posters.

Beantown Bronco
08-05-2009, 11:46 AM
cant believe people are sticking up for slowick still, blaming the talent. his job is to put teh team in position to win, the fact that multiple players complained about (last year dj williams said he wasnt sure what hes supposed to be doing out there, bly complained earlier this year, and several other players being happy about being on an aggressive defense) it should be proof enough, but apparently you guys sitting at home know more.

No defensive coordinator would've been able to do jack sh*t with those scrubs last year. In my opinion, talent always trumps coaching by a wide margin.

If coaching could really make that big a difference, with guys being able to win with scrubs, don't you think more owners would just pay ridiculous sums of money to the coaches and none to the players? After all, there is no salary cap on the coaching staffs, yet there is on the players. I'd just find the best DC and OC on the market along with the best position coaches and give them all the money. Outbid all the other teams. Simple. Then bring in players at or near the vet minimum and call it a day.

But it doesn't work that way. Coaches NEED talent. Certainly more talent than Denver had on D last year.

s0phr0syne
08-05-2009, 11:49 AM
In two reports from Buff he has been less then impressed with Goodman, so right there we have conflicting reports from two of our camp posters.



<-----owned (or at least semi-owned)

I'll still wait to see it on the field during games, but I didn't remember some of the negative assessments from the reports.

Br0nc0Buster
08-05-2009, 11:50 AM
No defensive coordinator would've been able to do jack sh*t with those scrubs last year. In my opinion, talent always trumps coaching by a wide margin.

If coaching could really make that big a difference, with guys being able to win with scrubs, don't you think more owners would just pay ridiculous sums of money to the coaches and none to the players? After all, there is no salary cap on the coaching staffs, yet there is on the players. I'd just find the best DC and OC on the market along with the best position coaches and give them all the money. Outbid all the other teams. Simple. Then bring in players at or near the vet minimum and call it a day.

But it doesn't work that way. Coaches NEED talent. Certainly more talent than Denver had on D last year.

yes coaches need talent, but Slowik also did the same thing in Green Bay he did in Denver
I am pretty sure he either set the record or came close to setting the record for fewest turnovers in a season when he was DC there.
He did the exact same thing here

We had bad talent, but was it the least talented defense of any team ever?

Statisitically our defense was one of the top 5 worst pass defenses of ALL TIME last year.

gyldenlove
08-05-2009, 11:51 AM
In the last few days, you've been one of the weirdest posters that I've noticed.

You're not going to the camps, and yet you seem to extract really, REALLY baseless opinions from a sentence here or a lack of a sentence there.

Your criticism of Bruton was great illustration of this, and again here in this thread you're trying to discredit Goodman not for bad play, but rather for not having his name in the camp reports enough.

You might be right, but I'm saying that you have no proof or even firsthand observations for the stupid stuff that you've been saying and arguing.

As for the comment about Goodman being consistent, I think Kaylore is talking about how he looks in camp, in terms of not getting beat and having good coverage. I agree that we haven't read about Goodman having any awesome PDs or INTs, but at the same time I don't recall reading much about getting beat either.

Goodman's career stats aren't that great--you're right on that. However, I remember reading that he'd been injury plagued early on in his career and as a result it took a while for him to put it all together. We'll see if McD's assessment was right, but if Goodman can continue his play at the same level as last year, it seems like we got a good steal in FA. I mean, I concede that he MIGHT be a one year wonder, but unless you've watched him play, I really doubt that you are making that judgement fairly.

Firstly, when did I EVER in this thread say anything about training camp? please don't make up my side of the argument, even though it does make your side easier.

I don't want to put words in Khan's mouth, he is more than able to speak for himself.

I presume his argument is based on Goodman's career stats since the 5 days of camp we have had so far doesn't present anything near a good enough platform to argue about performance and consistency. It is clear, no make the 100% obvious, that Goodman has been consistently below average through the first 6 years of his playing career (and he is not a Notre Dame alum so I can say that without hurting your feelings). He has had all of 1 good season in his 7 year career.

Considering that Miami is not gifted with amazing depth at DB and they made no attempts at keeping him around I have to conclude that he is not all that and a bag of chips.

How injured has he been? he has played double digit games in 5 of 6 seasons before 2008, even he has played injured in some of those games it is not enough to explain the enormous discrepancy between his 2008 and pre-2008 output.

Beantown Bronco
08-05-2009, 11:56 AM
We had bad talent, but was it the least talented defense of any team ever?

8 starters dumped, only 1 picked up with a remote chance to start elsewhere.

And Champ hurt half the season.

It just might have been.

tsiguy96
08-05-2009, 11:58 AM
No defensive coordinator would've been able to do jack sh*t with those scrubs last year. In my opinion, talent always trumps coaching by a wide margin.

If coaching could really make that big a difference, with guys being able to win with scrubs, don't you think more owners would just pay ridiculous sums of money to the coaches and none to the players? After all, there is no salary cap on the coaching staffs, yet there is on the players. I'd just find the best DC and OC on the market along with the best position coaches and give them all the money. Outbid all the other teams. Simple. Then bring in players at or near the vet minimum and call it a day.

But it doesn't work that way. Coaches NEED talent. Certainly more talent than Denver had on D last year.

talent is more important than coaching, but the coaches NEED to do their job in putting the players in the best position they can to win. slowick did not do that, which is part of the reason they allowed like 450 pts last year. sure they were low on talent, but worst defense in broncos history?

if that was slowicks first year of suckiness maybe, but considering every team he was ever DC on sucked, did NOT turn the ball over EVER, i think it points that he was a bigger problem then you think he was.

misturanderson
08-05-2009, 12:05 PM
I'll repost what I did about Slowick in the Shanahan thread in regards to Slowick not having enough talent/not having enough time to implement his scheme:


Taco,

How in the world is 1 1/2 years not enough time to "install a defense"? I mean you are acting like all he needed was an all-pro at every position on the D-line and then he'd be able to run a worthwhile defense. Well no ****, that would make everyone look good. I of course question whether our defensive staff could develop any draft picks into talented players, or hell even realize who the best defensive players were on their team. I mean we had to sit through the first half of the year with Webster as the MLB, then they put in Koutivides, then when they both finally get hurt, Larsen gets put in. He proceeds to outperform the other two for 5 games, and what happens as soon as Webster isn't hurt any more? Larsen gets pulled, followed shortly by Woodyard. And what happens? Our defense tanks for the last 3 weeks of the season after the defense was overachieving the previous 5 weeks with the rookies in. That alone should be enough to prove to you that they didn't know what they were doing.

ON TOP OF THAT, I haven't played football since middle school, but even I could tell that none of the formations we had out there would work. We would rush 4 every time with no stunts or other tricks on 3rd down. THEN we would start the CBs at least 3 yards past the first down marker. Everyone in the stadium knew that the other team would get the first down unless their receiver dropped it. And let's not forget about them trying to work in a 3-4 in the middle of the season (which failed miserably and was scrapped).

To add insult to injury, we also had the fewest blitz attempts in the league and fewest turnovers in the league (13: a record in a non-strike year and only 2 above the winless oilers team from 1982).

How you could even pretend to defend this is absolute nonsense. Bob Slowick may have been the worst judge of defensive talent that has ever coordinated a defense and his schemes did nothing but detract from the skills of his players.

As soon as Shanahan said that Slowick was being retained, I lost all hope that the Broncos would even have gotten to the playoffs this year.

Kaylore
08-05-2009, 12:10 PM
8 starters dumped, only 1 picked up with a remote chance to start elsewhere.

And Champ hurt half the season.

It just might have been.

It was bad but Slowick made it worse. Slowick turned this defense into the carbon-copy abortion of a defense that he made Green Bay into. They were bad but even with better players Slowick's scheme would have produced everything it usually does: High opponent passer ratings, low turnovers, long drives that result in points.

s0phr0syne
08-05-2009, 12:10 PM
Firstly, when did I EVER in this thread say anything about training camp? please don't make up my side of the argument, even though it does make your side easier.

I don't want to put words in Khan's mouth, he is more than able to speak for himself.

I presume his argument is based on Goodman's career stats since the 5 days of camp we have had so far doesn't present anything near a good enough platform to argue about performance and consistency. It is clear, no make the 100% obvious, that Goodman has been consistently below average through the first 6 years of his playing career (and he is not a Notre Dame alum so I can say that without hurting your feelings). He has had all of 1 good season in his 7 year career.

Considering that Miami is not gifted with amazing depth at DB and they made no attempts at keeping him around I have to conclude that he is not all that and a bag of chips.

How injured has he been? he has played double digit games in 5 of 6 seasons before 2008, even he has played injured in some of those games it is not enough to explain the enormous discrepancy between his 2008 and pre-2008 output.


yeah, I think I had read someone else's post and thought it was by you.

I looked at the same stats that you did before I posted and also noticed that he's played in quite a few games, despite the "injury plagued" seasons I read about. I don't remember the exact article in which they referred to his previous injuries, but I do remember a teammate remarking how impressed they were by how the bulb had seemed to come on for Goodman recently.

I am not so entrenched in believing Goodman to think that I won't be wrong--I think it's very possible he may not be all that we want. But I do think that he will be about as good as Bly would have been(coming back to the OP).

Looks like I have some company in this thread, but I've been one of the few people who thought Bly (for the most part) did a good/great job for us. He definitely gave up some huge plays though (aside from the Packers OT, I was just watching the Pats-Broncos '08 video and noticed a huge run where he completely whimped and whiffed out on tackling Sammy Morris).

But anyway, coming back to Goodman--you're definitely right to have some skepticism, as do I, but I don't feel like there's too much riding on our staff's assessment of him being right. If they're wrong, they seem to have hedged their bets in acquiring Alphonso, and JmfW seems to have developed quite a bit as well.

I would say that my heavy-handed criticism of you in my first post in this thread was probably unwarranted.

rastaman
08-05-2009, 12:18 PM
no, this time hes 100% right. if you have good press corners that are aggressive ballhawk type players, you use them like that. slowik is too damn stupid to make a scheme that fits the abilities of his players.

Rep!

Allowing your corners to play press coverage is key to disrupting the coordination and timing btwn QB and receivers. Also, once you disrupt the timing btwn QB and WR's, you vastly improve your pass b/c the Qb must hold the ball longer greatly increasing the DL getting to the QB or the Qb will throw incompletion or interceptions.

Slowick stubbornly missed great opportunities to increase the likelihood of getting more turn overs.

521 1N5
08-05-2009, 12:39 PM
I'm sorry, but just by watching Bly get burned on deep passes or bump and runs, if we would have set him at the line he would have constantly got beaten. I'm telling you guys the majority of the time he was getting tripped up or straight up out ran.

He's just over-rated now and that's the bottom line. and I'm not defending Slowick here so don't get all sad.

footstepsfrom#27
08-05-2009, 12:46 PM
Bly is a good corner, not an all pro but he's certainly a worthy #2 starter on virtually any team. As for Slo-wit...I can't recall seeing a worse NFL defensive coach...and I saw the Chiefs beat Minnesota in the Super Bowl.

The MVPlaya
08-05-2009, 12:48 PM
Branching off this topic - I don't think McDaniels will allow this to happen as he has preached the team will do whatever it takes to win and change/adjust whatever needs to be adjusted in order to win. McDaniels NEEDS to make a good impression and you can see/feel the determination he has to win.

Anytime you let Greg Camarillo get 1/5 of his season receptions with a career day... you've officially need to step down. The Broncos made NO adjustments at ALL...it was painful.

That **** ain't happening again with McDaniels... he'll get in Nolan's face if he needs to.

Drek
08-05-2009, 12:48 PM
Calling Goodman consistent seems wrong.

He had an impressive 1.2 INT per year in his first 6 years in the league to go with 7 PDs per years. In 2008 he had 5 INTs and 19 PDs, 4 times as many INTs as his average before 2008 and 3 times as many PDs as his average before 2008. The only consistency in him before 2008 was his below average play.

Hill has been consistently average with some awful teams. As a side note Hill has lost 64 games and won 39 meaning his career average is 5-8 per season.
You know Champ only averaged 3.6 INTs a season before leaving Washington right? He only averaged 8 pass defenses per season in that time too.

I mean nevermind that Goodman only got to start one season from those pre-2008 averages you're pulling, they're still pretty close to Champ's back when we traded for an "elite corner".

INTs and passes defensed are not good indicators of how a CB plays. You actually watch Goodman play last year and you see a fundamentally sound CB who doesn't make mental errors and doesn't take risks. He'll never look like a stud, but he's the exact kind of guy you want opposite Champ for when teams start trying to pick on him. He'll just go to work and not get baited into making mistakes.

Its also why we want a guy like Alphonso Smith at nickel, where he can be afforded the leeway to take risks in order to try making a big play.

watermock
08-05-2009, 01:04 PM
Jesus.

Bring in a press cover to take the heat (Champ was opposite) and make him play 12 yards off on 3/5.

I still say Bowlen could fired Slowick seperately and made Shanny resign, as CEO.

17 million for teo years of playing off recivers when he had an excellent preess/int game.

Rock Chalk
08-05-2009, 01:20 PM
In two reports from Buff he has been less then impressed with Goodman, so right there we have conflicting reports from two of our camp posters.

Buff being "less than impressed" doesnt mean much.

It could just mean he didnt do anything flashy to impress BUff, but on the same token didn't get beat.

Ive been to 3 camps now and I havent noticed anything positive or negative from Goodman. I agree with Buff in that I am not overly impressed but I also agree with Kaylore in that he is a consistent player. Not flashy but doesnt make a lot of mistakes and covers his man well.

DBroncos4life
08-05-2009, 01:21 PM
<-----owned (or at least semi-owned)

I'll still wait to see it on the field during games, but I didn't remember some of the negative assessments from the reports.

BroncoBuff
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Join Date: Aug 2005
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Posts: 19,066

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TUESDAY AUGUST 4

Jack Williams one.
Jack Williams two.
Jack Williams three.
Jack Williams four.

The second year cornerback impacted each of the last four plays of the day, as the first team offense wound down the two-minute drill. With a first down from the 19 yard line and just 16 seconds left on the clock, quarterback Kyle Orton threw toward Jabar Gaffney at the goal line, only to see Jack Williams dart in front of Gaffney to bat the ball down. Second and goal, and again Williams batted down a pass, this time intended for Brandon Stokley at the five. Third and goal, and Orton threw toward Stokley in the end zone. The pass fell incomplete, but Jack Williams was flagged for pass interference in the end zone (hey, I said he impacted the last four plays, I never said all four impacts were positive).

After pass interference in the end zone, the ball was placed at the one yard-line with just one second left on the clock. Gaffney lined up slot left, flashed into the end zone and cut left toward the sideline … Orton zipped the ball toward Gaffney, then watched in horror as Jack Williams himself stepped in front of Gaffney, snared the ball at full speed, and raced 99 yards up the sidelines to end the day with his second pick-6 of the session.

Earlier in half-speed 7-on-7 drills, Williams picked off a Tom Brandstater pass intended for Mathew Willis, and went up the left sideline with what was probably a pick-6, though no contact was permitted at this stage of the practice.


NEWS OF THE DAY

The top story at today’s practice was the appearance of three NFL game officials, including the now infamous Ed Hochuli. Can’t imagine why Hochuli would moonlight in Denver of all places, but there he was. Also present was a younger official wearing #20 (can anybody get his name, I Googled but couldn’t find it). This young and very personable guy watched the near sidelines directly in front of the five man strong OrangeMane contingent. At one point OSKIE loudly asked him for a holding call … to which he turned and smiled, saying “I need a number!”

Also newsworthy were the appearances of both Robert Ayers and Jarvis Moss. The rookie first round draft pick Ayers ended his holdout and agreed to contract terms yesterday, and former first-round draft pick Moss returned to the field after four days of soul-searching . Ayers and Moss subbed in on defense at the same time during early walkthroughs. Ayers looked understandably tentative to start, but after a quick tutorial from defensive line coach Wayne Nunnely, he subbed back in and made an immediate impact with the first-team unit. He blasted past Tyler Polumus to tackle Ryan Torain after a short pass. He seemed to catch on quick, as he subbed in and out with Tim Crowder. Later Ayers rode Tony Scheffler hard upfield, knocking the big tight end off his route, and a couple plays later, after Tyler Polumus inexplicable blocked down on the DE, Ayers was left free to rush quarterback Chris Simms and bat down the pass. Overall a very impressive first day on the job for the rookie.

The offense stressed tight end work heavily, especially tight end screens. Daniel Graham and Tony Scheffler caught lots of balls in walkthroughs, half-speed and full-speed drills. Sheffler's combination of size and speed are even more remarkable in person. Look for plenty of tight end screens this season.

Despite a couple of uncharacteristic drops, Eddie Royal shined again today. Kyle Orton found Royal for a 35-yard gain, as Eddie went to his knees for the catch despite Renaldo Hill coming over the top. Corell Buckhalter effortlessly picked up a blitzing linebacker, allowing Orton to complete an out pass for a nice gain to Jabar Gaffney who had beaten Andre Goodman.

Chris Simms on the other hand had a very lackluster session. His accuracy was bad for most of the practice, even when he had time to throw. And when he did not, he was stuffed. Three times he had balls batted down, the first by Mario Haggan who went high up to knock the ball away, and a couple of plays later, Marcus Thomas knifed into the backfield and stuffed Simms’ throw, and the third the Ayers block recounted above.

Some of the bullet points from 7-on-7 and 11-on-11 drills:

* Ryan Clady was actually caught in the act holding Elvis Dumervil
* Jarvis Moss got a very good push against Clint Oldenberg in full-speed 7-on-7 drills
* Tim Crowder beat Ryan Harris badly to the inside to sack Kyle Orton
* Ben Hamilton flattened Mario Haggan to clear the way for a Corell Buckhalter touchdown
* A screen pass to Lamont Jordan was blown up by Mario Haggan, who sped past Hillis and might've wrecked Jordan for good had this developed in game conditions.
* Chris Simms found Jabbar Gaffney for a rope of a TD in the back of the end zone. Might've been the session's only good play by Simms
* Special teams coach Mike Pheifer is an energetic, commanding presence, a natural and patient teacher


Peyton Hillis again was the most energetic player on the field once again. Ryan Clady and Ben Hamilton blasted clean the defenseon a sweep left, as Hillis went full speed thorugh the hole for what would have been a touchdown.

In unit drills, WRs line up at CB to walkthrough plays. Kenny McKinley "allowed" a long sideline completion to Brando Lloyd on the near sidelines. OSKIE (again) yelled out to Kenny he needed to step it up "in coverage." Kenny spun around and flashed us a smile.

Thusfar in camp, Corell Buckhalter and Peyton Hillis have run full speed at all times. On the other hand, Lamont Jordan seems uniterested and slow. Camp watchers from last year pointed out Michael Pittman was also went mostly half-speed in camp, and then exploded out of the gate in the opener in Oakland. So the lack of energy on Jordan's part might not portend much for the regular season.


MOST IMPRESSIVE TODAY: Jack Williams, Mario Haggan, Robert Ayers, Peyton Hillis
LEAST IMPRESSIVE TODAY: Chris Simms, Lamont Jordan, Andre Goodman

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=82626&page=3

BroncoBuff
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EVENING PRACTICE, Part 2

FULL SPEED 7-on-7

Chris Simms completed a flat pass to Lamont Jordan, and just as he turned upfield, DJ Williams stripped the ball and Brian Dawkins recovered the fumble. Not surprisingly, Dawkins has a real presence about him. He looks younger than his years, and seems to command respect and attention. Champ Bailey and Renaldo Hill have developed a good rapport, I saw them talking and joking several times.

Richard Quinn caught a Chris Simms pass, and laid a nice spin move on Mario Haggan. Alphonso Smith is impressive - he's running 1st team nickel set - but he dropped an easy pick that he could've returned a good distance. Kyle Orton and Simms to a lesser extent spent far too long in the pocket, taking a bit too much advantage of the no-hitting-the-QB rule.

Biggest cheers of the night came when Eddie Royal hauled in a nice Chris Simms pass over his shoulder for a touchdown. Eddie and Peyton Hillis are clearly the top fans favorites. When Eddie went over to the rope to sign autographs after practice (with all the WRs), the crowd funneled over and nearly stampeded him.

11-on-11 FULL CONTACT

Darius Walker picked up a blitz nicely, he was more impressive than Lamont Jordan, at least today. Tom Brandstater threaded the needle to Darius Walker twice for touchdowns, and zipped a rope to Marquez Branson for another score. Tom saved the best for last, finding Kenny McKinley crossing through the back of the end zone for a gorgeous touchdown ... after which McKinley gave a shimmy-shake that would make Deion Sanders proud.

The 11-on-11 moved to the 20 yard line for Red Zone drills. A sharp throw from Kyle Orton to Brandon Stokley, who had beaten Vernon Fox badly, resulted in a score.

Matt McChesney jumped up for a false start, to which he immediately spun round and took off onhis penalty lap. So clear are the coaches on this one that Matt didn't wait to be told.

A Kyle Orton pass to the goalline was either a) dropped by Jeb Putzier or b) knocked down by Andra Davis. Opinions were divided ... insert your own joke here

A WR screen from Orton to Jabar Gaffney really took off when Darrell Reid became "lost in space" as Gaffney sped past. And this is exactly what I worrry about with these jumbo OLBs, misdirection, reverses and screens could really victimize these guy, at least Reid and Dumervil ... Crowder seemed more comfortable in the flats.



Next the 11-on-11 moved to the 50 yard line:

* Elvis Dumervil beat Ryan Harris to sack Orton (although no hit QB rule)
* Stokley yanked a pass cleanly away from Andre Goodman for a nice gain, but on the very next play dropped an easy catch
* Matthia Askew flew past Brandon Gorin to sack Chris Simms. Watch for Askew to make a real contribution this year on a lackluster D-line unit.
* Mario Haggan leaped high to knock a pass away from Brandon Lloyd.

MOST DISAPPOINTING TODAY: Lamont Jordan, Andre Goodman, Blake Schleuter

MOST IMPRESSIVE TODAY: Peyton Hillis, Eddie Royal, D.J. Williams, Seth Olsen, Mathias Askew



FINAL POINT: If you voted Ryan Clady as "Best Bronco" in the recent poll, then congratulations, you are the winner!

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?p=2492540#post2492540

Maybe this will help you remember.

Bronx33
08-05-2009, 01:25 PM
Yeah, I know a lot of people will end up bashing Bly here, but none of that was his fault.

Is/was he a great corner? No. But the positions the coaches put him in were horrendous. He either had to play 10 yards off the ball and/or he was on an island with zero help behind him because safeties had to stop the run. He was set up to fail in our defense last year.


I watched bly and he was soft making poor decisions so yes i blame him for his piss poor play he earned it ( end of story)

DBroncos4life
08-05-2009, 01:35 PM
Buff being "less than impressed" doesnt mean much.

It could just mean he didnt do anything flashy to impress BUff, but on the same token didn't get beat.

Ive been to 3 camps now and I havent noticed anything positive or negative from Goodman. I agree with Buff in that I am not overly impressed but I also agree with Kaylore in that he is a consistent player. Not flashy but doesnt make a lot of mistakes and covers his man well.

My point is he is being payed a good amount of money. I think we split the cost of Bly to cut him this year so to me there wasn't enough savings to justify cutting him and tossing more money to a DB that is going to get picked on a lot playing next to Bailey. I'm not saying Goodman isn't a OK DB either I just think the move was not needed.

SportinOne
08-05-2009, 01:58 PM
I think anyone who watched more than 1 Bronco game last year would agree with Bly. To play devil's advocate, though, what would have happened had we pressed the receivers? We got very little pressure on the QB, which is something you NEED if you are going to press. When you press, the receiver is more likely to get behind the corner rather than running short routes in front of him. Had we pressed, teams would have adjusted and run longer routes down the field. With our safeties, that would have been a DISASTER. It all boils down to our front 7. We did what our front 7 gave us time to do.. which was stay back and hope the offense makes a mistake while nickel and diming their way down the field. At least that's my take, anyone disagree?

Lolad
08-05-2009, 02:02 PM
I think anyone who watched more than 1 Bronco game last year would agree with Bly. To play devil's advocate, though, what would have happened had we pressed the receivers? We got very little pressure on the QB, which is something you NEED if you are going to press. When you press, the receiver is more likely to get behind the corner rather than running short routes in front of him. Had we pressed, teams would have adjusted and run longer routes down the field. With our safeties, that would have been a DISASTER. It all boils down to our front 7. We did what our front 7 gave us time to do.. which was stay back and hope the offense makes a mistake while nickel and diming their way down the field. At least that's my take, anyone disagree?

I think a mixture between press and off. Maybe 4-5 yards, not the 10-15 that we saw on a regular basis. It would at least give our CB's time to react and make a play on the ball. Instead of allowing the WR an easy completion

oubronco
08-05-2009, 02:08 PM
no, this time hes 100% right. if you have good press corners that are aggressive ballhawk type players, you use them like that. slowik is too damn stupid to make a scheme that fits the abilities of his players.

and is exactly why Bowlen shytcanned Shanny for not firing the assclown

Beantown Bronco
08-05-2009, 02:29 PM
and is exactly why Bowlen shytcanned Shanny for not firing the assclown

myth

Natedogg
08-05-2009, 03:15 PM
God, reading this post hurts. Bly is a good corner. Played his ass off for denver while hurt.

Slowdick should get burnt in an oven.

fdf
08-05-2009, 03:44 PM
Slowik schemes were prevent Ds like 70% of the time. Madden said it best when he said something along the lines of "I finally figured out why they call it a prevent defense, I think the only thing it prevents you from doing is playing defense."

I've always called it the "prevent-a-win D." Kind of the same idea.

cutthemdown
08-05-2009, 04:02 PM
The problem was wr caught the ball and then dbacks missed the tackle. Even pitt CBs play off the wr most of the time. Our players last yr were often in position to stop wr on 3rd down but after catch just failed to make the tackle.

watermock
08-05-2009, 04:24 PM
I think anyone who watched more than 1 Bronco game last year would agree with Bly. To play devil's advocate, though, what would have happened had we pressed the receivers? We got very little pressure on the QB, which is something you NEED if you are going to press. When you press, the receiver is more likely to get behind the corner rather than running short routes in front of him. Had we pressed, teams would have adjusted and run longer routes down the field. With our safeties, that would have been a DISASTER. It all boils down to our front 7. We did what our front 7 gave us time to do.. which was stay back and hope the offense makes a mistake while nickel and diming their way down the field. At least that's my take, anyone disagree?


We'll never know, bacause Bly was so far back from the LOS. IMO, Fox would of been a better S than any of the crap we put out there, given the pansy ass rules these days regarding breathing on a reciever.

Watching the Broncos being worn down like a dead mule was rancid.

How many times WAS Bly taken deep? I remember slow, painful drives.

Like someone ONCE said, it all starts up front. Maybe Baker shows up.

Gort
08-05-2009, 04:39 PM
Bly is right on this one. It was a huge problem. A 10 yard cushion on 3rd and 5!!!??? WTF! It completely undermined the pass rush too. If youre a QB and the other team is giving you a quick slant for a first down, why would you ever hold on to the ball long enough to be sacked. The scheme was dreadful.

that's not really fair. the 10-yard CB cushion allowed us to easily beat Pittsburgh and advance to the superbowl, where we again easily handled Seattle back in 2007. remember how many times we were able to stop Pittsburgh on 3rd-and-15 or 3rd-and-18 simply by playing off the receiver and allowing him to catch the ball roughly 10-12 yards downfield?

wait...

what?

gyldenlove
08-05-2009, 05:21 PM
yeah, I think I had read someone else's post and thought it was by you.

I looked at the same stats that you did before I posted and also noticed that he's played in quite a few games, despite the "injury plagued" seasons I read about. I don't remember the exact article in which they referred to his previous injuries, but I do remember a teammate remarking how impressed they were by how the bulb had seemed to come on for Goodman recently.

I am not so entrenched in believing Goodman to think that I won't be wrong--I think it's very possible he may not be all that we want. But I do think that he will be about as good as Bly would have been(coming back to the OP).

Looks like I have some company in this thread, but I've been one of the few people who thought Bly (for the most part) did a good/great job for us. He definitely gave up some huge plays though (aside from the Packers OT, I was just watching the Pats-Broncos '08 video and noticed a huge run where he completely whimped and whiffed out on tackling Sammy Morris).

But anyway, coming back to Goodman--you're definitely right to have some skepticism, as do I, but I don't feel like there's too much riding on our staff's assessment of him being right. If they're wrong, they seem to have hedged their bets in acquiring Alphonso, and JmfW seems to have developed quite a bit as well.

I would say that my heavy-handed criticism of you in my first post in this thread was probably unwarranted.

It is kind of funny, I like Goodman. I think he was a pretty good signing, he played very well last year in an aggressive style defense, I think he can do well again. Cornerbacks often age quite well untill they start slowing down badly.

I liked Bly too, he was a bad fit for what we tried to do with him, but overall I don't think he played badly. He was clearly better than Foxworth and Paymah and Foxworth got a huge deal this year so he was not all bad.

gyldenlove
08-05-2009, 05:29 PM
You know Champ only averaged 3.6 INTs a season before leaving Washington right? He only averaged 8 pass defenses per season in that time too.

I mean nevermind that Goodman only got to start one season from those pre-2008 averages you're pulling, they're still pretty close to Champ's back when we traded for an "elite corner".

INTs and passes defensed are not good indicators of how a CB plays. You actually watch Goodman play last year and you see a fundamentally sound CB who doesn't make mental errors and doesn't take risks. He'll never look like a stud, but he's the exact kind of guy you want opposite Champ for when teams start trying to pick on him. He'll just go to work and not get baited into making mistakes.

Its also why we want a guy like Alphonso Smith at nickel, where he can be afforded the leeway to take risks in order to try making a big play.

A few things, Goodman has started 55 games in his career, with 16 coming in 2008 that leaves 39 games pre-2008, I could swear that is a lot more than a season.

3.6 INTS is 3 times better than 1.2, that seems good to me. Champ also had an average of 16.4 PDs per season in Washington, that is just shy of Goodman's career best and about 3 times better than his average pre 2008. I don't see how having INTs and PDs that are 3 times better than Goodman's make them pretty close? Would you say someone who makes 30.000$ a year has pretty close to the same salary assomeone making 90.000$ a year?

I think Goodman is a good cornerback, but I don't think he has been a model of consistency throughout his career.

s0phr0syne
08-05-2009, 10:06 PM
It is kind of funny, I like Goodman. I think he was a pretty good signing, he played very well last year in an aggressive style defense, I think he can do well again. Cornerbacks often age quite well untill they start slowing down badly.

I liked Bly too, he was a bad fit for what we tried to do with him, but overall I don't think he played badly. He was clearly better than Foxworth and Paymah and Foxworth got a huge deal this year so he was not all bad.



here's an interview with goodman (from today?) in which they touch on some of the things we discussed in the thread about him. Nothing really groundbreaking or new.

http://www.fm1043thefan.com/channels/audioOnDemand/Story.aspx?ID=1122272

BroncoBuff
09-02-2009, 08:58 AM
Buff being "less than impressed" doesnt mean much..
Hmmmm ... Goodman gave up 2 TDs vs. Seattle and a long pass to Cutler.

I guess I was right, for now yet again), and you were wrong, for now (yet again)


I'm gonna pound you with this all year Mr. Angry ;D

Rulon Velvet Jones
09-02-2009, 09:06 AM
Hmmmm ... Goodman gave up 2 TDs vs. Seattle and a long pass to Cutler.

I guess I was right, for now yet again), and you were wrong, for now (yet again)


I'm gonna pound you with this all year Mr. Angry ;D

Which long pass from Cutler? Wasn't his longest a 25-yarder to a TE, tackled by Dawkins?

broncofan7
09-02-2009, 09:11 AM
Goodman broke up a long pass into the endzone by Cutler--I like the Goodman signing.

BroncoBuff
09-02-2009, 09:16 AM
Which long pass from Cutler? Wasn't his longest a 25-yarder to a TE, tackled by Dawkins?

Wasn't that long I guess, but it was Hester and it killed us ... Goodman looked out of place.

Actually, I don't think Goodman is too bad really ... but he had a few bad days in camp, no doubt, and the two TDs in Seattle. I just thought it was a lateral move from Bly. Plus Goodman is the textbook definition of "one-year wonder." Parcells let him go, that's a red flag to me.

We'll see ... I'll be tracking Goodman and Bly all year.

BroncoBuff
09-02-2009, 09:20 AM
Goodman broke up a long pass into the endzone by Cutler--I like the Goodman signing.
Yes he did, but if you recall he was beaten, and beaten badly. The ball was 5+ yards underthrown by Jay.

Again, I'll be tracking Goodman and Bly all year (bf7, love the tag-line!)

s0phr0syne
09-02-2009, 09:55 AM
Buff, it's hard to say on that play. I haven't seen the game again, but it looked to me that the receiver was Dawkins responsibility and that Goodman actually bailed him out by coming over to make the play.

I don't think we were in man coverage, and I think the zone responsibility was on our 80 year old safety...but like I said, hard to say for sure one way or the other unless you were the coach. Or have Mediator-like analysis skills...{hint hint Med!, give us a definitive answer}

WolfpackGuy
09-02-2009, 10:02 AM
Buff, it's hard to say on that play. I haven't seen the game again, but it looked to me that the receiver was Dawkins responsibility and that Goodman actually bailed him out by coming over to make the play.

I don't think we were in man coverage, and I think the zone responsibility was on our 80 year old safety...but like I said, hard to say for sure one way or the other unless you were the coach. Or have Mediator-like analysis skills...{hint hint Med!, give us a definitive answer}

Teams with good TE's are going to eat Dawkins alive, so they best not cut Barrett.
He hadn't been playing third downs/obvious passing situations in PHI for some time.