Right Wing Fear Campaign Organized

[Rohirrim]

They are now working to ensure that health care reform can't even be discussed. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/denise-dennis/right-wingers-wreak-havoc_b_249897.html

Look, America! This is where the Right is coming from: Storm trooperville. :welcome:

[Rigs11]

The party of NO strikes again.but remember folks we have to be bipartisan:rofl:

[NaptownChief]

The party of NO strikes again.but remember folks we have to be bipartisan:rofl:



Given how well the government has done with running public education, you can understand why Rohrimjob thinks it is a good idea they try their hand at running health care.

[Rohirrim]

Given how well the government has done with running public education, you can understand why Rohrimjob thinks it is a good idea they try their hand at running health care.

While all you rightards can do is scream like toddlers so that nobody can talk. Brilliant! Ha!

[ghwk]

Given how well the government has done with running public education, you can understand why Rohrimjob thinks it is a good idea they try their hand at running health care.

you mean Bush's "No child left behind" smoke and mirrors program?

[Bob]

They are now working to ensure that health care reform can't even be discussed. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/denise-dennis/right-wingers-wreak-havoc_b_249897.html

Look, America! This is where the Right is coming from: Storm trooperville. :welcome:

I dont mind talking about these isues rationally, and do, in the "real world" but when the majority of Americans do not want these changes, and those we elected seem so damn insistant, it is my responsbility to speak my mind. The more we see how the government runs things and ignores the people, the more we will see previously calm folks freak out. An increasing number of folks dont trust the government (any government) to administer healthcare.

[Bob]

While all you rightards can do is scream like toddlers so that nobody can talk. Brilliant! Ha!

I do think it is interesting, that millions who are the backbone of America, who are the ones paying into the system disportionately, and the ones that usually dont say peep (as they are too busy working.) But I guess, if the Dems in charge are not Dems any longer but have morphed into Socialists, if they are not following American traditions, yes, I will speak up and not be lied to anymore.

Now, Conservatives need to be careful, as there is an element to your party, who will take names, and will purposely go after us. We will be peaceful, and not use violence, but if some idiot "conservative" does, your hyjacked party will use the event to go after additional American liberties.

[Rohirrim]

I dont mind talking about these isues rationally, and do, in the "real world" but when the majority of Americans do not want these changes, and those we elected seem so damn insistant, it is my responsbility to speak my mind. The more we see how the government runs things and ignores the people, the more we will see previously calm folks freak out. An increasing number of folks dont trust the government (any government) to administer healthcare.


Are you really this stupid, or do you just read nothing and sit around listening to rightard radio all day?

http://sas-origin.onstreammedia.com/origin/gallupinc/GallupSpaces/Production/Cms/POLL/prk--aywqe2rohpeefcvva.gif

http://www.gallup.com/poll/121664/majority-favors-healthcare-reform-this-year.aspx

Obviously, because your column is against health care reform, then the majority must be against it. Right? Well, if that were true, maybe the last election would have come out a bit differently. Ya think?

[Rohirrim]

I do think it is interesting, that millions who are the backbone of America, who are the ones paying into the system disportionately, and the ones that usually dont say peep (as they are too busy working.) But I guess, if the Dems in charge are not Dems any longer but have morphed into Socialists, if they are not following American traditions, yes, I will speak up and not be lied anymore.

Now, Conservatives need to be careful, as there is an element to your party, who will take names, and will purposely go after us. We will be peaceful, and not use violence, but if some idiot "conservative" does, your hyjacked party will use the event to go after additional American liberties.

Yup. It's only us goldanged republicuns that does the work while youse libruls jes lie round all day collectin them welfare checks. You betcha.

I was going to suggest that you patent stupid but I'm afraid the Right has already cornered the market. If you weren't so busy being the backbone of America, you might have been able to see the entreprenurial opportunity. Shucks!

[Rohirrim]

you mean Bush's "No child left behind" smoke and mirrors program?

Yeah, Bush did a great job in Texas, once they erased the statistics on the hispanic population. :rofl:

[Traveler]

are you really this stupid, or do you just read nothing and sit around listening to rightard radio all day?

http://sas-origin.onstreammedia.com/origin/gallupinc/gallupspaces/production/cms/poll/prk--aywqe2rohpeefcvva.gif

http://www.gallup.com/poll/121664/majority-favors-healthcare-reform-this-year.aspx

obviously, because your column is against health care reform, then the majority must be against it. Right? Well, if that were true, maybe the last election would have come out a bit differently. Ya think?

Ouch! Think someone needs a doctor after that beatdown. Bravo Roh!

[Rigs11]

Ouch! Think someone needs a doctor after that beatdown. Bravo Roh!
yep some dumbass was on tv the other day saying that only 14% of americans wanted healthcare. As usual the rightard sheeps follow blindly along.

[Spider]

Given how well the government has done with running public education, you can understand why Rohrimjob thinks it is a good idea they try their hand at running health care.

what about the military ?
Post office ?
CIA ?
Yeah thought so ..........

[TailgateNut]

yep some dumbass was on tv the other day saying that only 14% of americans wanted healthcare. As usual the rightard sheeps follow blindly along.


If ya turn your radio and tv dial ALL THE WAY TO THE RIGHT the facts are clouded.

[Rohirrim]

The disinformation hysteria will reach a fever pitch this month.

[Kid A]

They are now working to ensure that health care reform can't even be discussed. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/denise-dennis/right-wingers-wreak-havoc_b_249897.html

Look, America! This is where the Right is coming from: Storm trooperville. :welcome:

I'm all for people voicing opinions to their representatives, but so many of there people aren't interested in making their case to their congresspeople...they just want to drown out any discussion with intimidation. If I was an intellectual conservative I'd be mortified at the direction the (vocal) right wing of this country seems to be headed.

<div><iframe height="339" width="425" src="http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22425001/vp/32277121#32277121" frameborder="0" scrolling="no"></iframe><p style="font-size:11px; font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; color: #999; margin-top: 5px; background: transparent; text-align: center; width: 425px;">Visit msnbc.com for <a style="text-decoration:none !important; border-bottom: 1px dotted #999 !important; font-weight:normal !important; height: 13px; color:#5799DB !important;" href="http://www.msnbc.msn.com">Breaking News</a>, <a href="http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3032507" style="text-decoration:none !important; border-bottom: 1px dotted #999 !important; font-weight:normal !important; height: 13px; color:#5799DB !important;">World News</a>, and <a href="http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3032072" style="text-decoration:none !important; border-bottom: 1px dotted #999 !important; font-weight:normal !important; height: 13px; color:#5799DB !important;">News about the Economy</a></p></div>

[Rohirrim]

I'm all for people voicing opinions to their representatives, but so many of there people aren't interested in making their case to their congresspeople...they just want to drown out any discussion with intimidation. If I was an intellectual conservative I'd be mortified at the direction the (vocal) right wing of this country seems to be headed.

<div><iframe height="339" width="425" src="http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22425001/vp/32277121#32277121" frameborder="0" scrolling="no"></iframe><p style="font-size:11px; font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; color: #999; margin-top: 5px; background: transparent; text-align: center; width: 425px;">Visit msnbc.com for <a style="text-decoration:none !important; border-bottom: 1px dotted #999 !important; font-weight:normal !important; height: 13px; color:#5799DB !important;" href="http://www.msnbc.msn.com">Breaking News</a>, <a href="http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3032507" style="text-decoration:none !important; border-bottom: 1px dotted #999 !important; font-weight:normal !important; height: 13px; color:#5799DB !important;">World News</a>, and <a href="http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3032072" style="text-decoration:none !important; border-bottom: 1px dotted #999 !important; font-weight:normal !important; height: 13px; color:#5799DB !important;">News about the Economy</a></p></div>

It's the same thing they did during the Gore/Bush recount. Rove sent a squad of thugs down there to disrupt the count. The Right doesn't care if health care reform is wanted by a majority of Americans and they don't care if it's the right thing to do. Once again, all they see is the ideological struggle. They have nothing to say and intend to stop anybody else from saying anything. Scorched earth politics.

[ghwk]

Yeah, Bush did a great job in Texas, once they erased the statistics on the hispanic population. :rofl:

I can't find any instance, on the interwebs or anywhere else, where Bush has done a great job at anything.

Oh wait thought of one--parasitically sucking off of Amerca's teat. He's got a lot of grand company too. No wonder my nipples are so sore.

[rastaman]

I do think it is interesting, that millions who are the backbone of America, who are the ones paying into the system disportionately, and the ones that usually dont say peep (as they are too busy working.) But I guess, if the Dems in charge are not Dems any longer but have morphed into Socialists, if they are not following American traditions, yes, I will speak up and not be lied anymore.

Now, Conservatives need to be careful, as there is an element to your party, who will take names, and will purposely go after us. We will be peaceful, and not use violence, but if some idiot "conservative" does, your hyjacked party will use the event to go after additional American liberties.

You mean the same way the Bush Crime Family behaved for 8 long years?:wiggle:

[rastaman]

I'm all for people voicing opinions to their representatives, but so many of there people aren't interested in making their case to their congresspeople...they just want to drown out any discussion with intimidation. If I was an intellectual conservative I'd be mortified at the direction the (vocal) right wing of this country seems to be headed.

<div><iframe height="339" width="425" src="http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22425001/vp/32277121#32277121" frameborder="0" scrolling="no"></iframe><p style="font-size:11px; font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; color: #999; margin-top: 5px; background: transparent; text-align: center; width: 425px;">Visit msnbc.com for <a style="text-decoration:none !important; border-bottom: 1px dotted #999 !important; font-weight:normal !important; height: 13px; color:#5799DB !important;" href="http://www.msnbc.msn.com">Breaking News</a>, <a href="http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3032507" style="text-decoration:none !important; border-bottom: 1px dotted #999 !important; font-weight:normal !important; height: 13px; color:#5799DB !important;">World News</a>, and <a href="http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3032072" style="text-decoration:none !important; border-bottom: 1px dotted #999 !important; font-weight:normal !important; height: 13px; color:#5799DB !important;">News about the Economy</a></p></div>

This is a fine example why conservatives are turning off so many voters across the country. We now see the Republican party and its voters in their DEATH THROES.

We are now wittnessing the slow incremental death of the GOP!

[TailgateNut]

It's the same thing they did during the Gore/Bush recount. Rove sent a squad of thugs down there to disrupt the count. The Right doesn't care if health care reform is wanted by a majority of Americans and they don't care if it's the right thing to do. Once again, all they see is the ideological struggle. They have nothing to say and intend to stop anybody else from saying anything. Scorched earth politics.

These "protesters/thugs" are nothing but puppets of medical lobbying efforts. Small minds are easily manipulated.

[TailgateNut]

This is a fine example why conservatives are turning off so many voters across the country. We now see the Republican party and its voters in their DEATH THROES.

We are now wittnessing the slow incremental death of the GOP!

RIP you lousy SOB's.

[Rohirrim]

These "protesters/thugs" are nothing but puppets of medical lobbying efforts. Small minds are easily manipulated.

We're getting so much like Rome it's getting scary. This is what the Romans used to do during elections. One faction would hire thugs who would go and disrupt the events of opposing factions and try to drown them out so their voices could not be heard by the people. When that didn't work, they would often just beat the opposing candidate to death in the middle of the forum.

[TailgateNut]

We're getting so much like Rome it's getting scary. This is what the Romans used to do during elections. One faction would hire thugs who would go and disrupt the events of opposing factions and try to drown them out so their voices could not be heard by the people. When that didn't work, they would often just beat the opposing candidate to death in the middle of the forum.

When the beating begin I'm "ALL IN". After the Bush Butt****ing I'm done playing nice.

[frerottenextelway]

I would assume anyone that supports Prof Gates getting arrested would certainly support these people causing much greater (and pre-planned) public commotion to also be arrested.

[Broncojef]

While all you rightards can do is scream like toddlers so that nobody can talk. Brilliant! Ha!

Its the Democrats and barry pushing to ink the deal ASAP. Similar to the bailouts where it was just too critical to read the bill. People are screaming because there is no talk. Democrats own Congress they can pass any legislation they want right now no matter what republicans say. The fact they can't pass this crap along even their own party line highlites what a piece of crap this is.

[Broncojef]

Are you really this stupid, or do you just read nothing and sit around listening to rightard radio all day?

http://sas-origin.onstreammedia.com/origin/gallupinc/GallupSpaces/Production/Cms/POLL/prk--aywqe2rohpeefcvva.gif

http://www.gallup.com/poll/121664/majority-favors-healthcare-reform-this-year.aspx

Obviously, because your column is against health care reform, then the majority must be against it. Right? Well, if that were true, maybe the last election would have come out a bit differently. Ya think?

If that graphic was even half-way accurate the Democrats in Congress who own both houses would steam roll the bill in just as they did the bailouts, the lopsided budget with loaded earmarks for special interest groups. Nope the reason health care has met resistance is everyone knows its an epic fail and more outrageous spending at a time when the deficit is already ridiculous.

Don't believe its a fail? Cash for clunkers was to be money used through November to stimulate car sales and they blew through that money in what a weekend? These people are so out of control they couldn't manage 1 billion dollars for a weekend...clueless as to whats going on. America is now reaping the rewards for electing someone with no experience and pairing him with a corrupt Congress that is run by reid, pelosi, frank and the democrats.

[Broncojef]

This is a fine example why conservatives are turning off so many voters across the country. We now see the Republican party and its voters in their DEATH THROES.

We are now wittnessing the slow incremental death of the GOP!

The republican party needs to get back to being conservative. Bush wasn't a conservative...he was a liberal. Barry is a fascist/socialist. Maybe after this country suffers for 4 years under Barry and the left we'll get an electable candidate. The trash being paraded out as our choices each year is getting ridiculous. Bozo as a Democrat could have won the presidential election this year. This isn't the death of the GOP...the decisions being made currently signifys the death of America.

[ghwk]

If that graphic was even half-way accurate the Democrats in Congress who own both houses would steam roll the bill in just as they did the bailouts, the lopsided budget with loaded earmarks for special interest groups. Nope the reason health care has met resistance is everyone knows its an epic fail and more outrageous spending at a time when the deficit is already ridiculous.

Don't believe its a fail? Cash for clunkers was to be money used through November to stimulate car sales and they blew through that money in what a weekend? These people are so out of control they couldn't manage 1 billion dollars for a weekend...clueless as to whats going on. America is now reaping the rewards for electing someone with no experience and pairing him with a corrupt Congress that is run by reid, pelosi, frank and the democrats.

Ok first prove the graphic is innaccurate. Or shut up.

2nd the reason the bill is an epic fail is because the Health Care lobbyists, the party of NO, and special interest groups have gotten their mitts all over over it and turned it into a steaming turd.

[peacepipe]

If that graphic was even half-way accurate the Democrats in Congress who own both houses would steam roll the bill in just as they did the bailouts, the lopsided budget with loaded earmarks for special interest groups. Nope the reason health care has met resistance is everyone knows its an epic fail and more outrageous spending at a time when the deficit is already ridiculous.

Don't believe its a fail? Cash for clunkers was to be money used through November to stimulate car sales and they blew through that money in what a weekend? These people are so out of control they couldn't manage 1 billion dollars for a weekend...clueless as to whats going on. America is now reaping the rewards for electing someone with no experience and pairing him with a corrupt Congress that is run by reid, pelosi, frank and the democrats.hmmm... do I believe gallup or do I believe the rants of a biased right-wing rep?

Cash for clunkers was a big success so therefore it is a failure in your book.

[Spider]

i know this new healthcare bill has problems , and it isnt the end all of healthcare , alot of changes will be made to it , But bat **** , 50 K for a broken leg that doesnt need surgery ?
thats ****ed up , and it has to end ......
Dont give me any bull**** about insurance policies , Insurance companies will treat you the same way a john does with a 2 dollar crack whore when the cops show up .....I dont know her , never seen her before ........
you people that want to keep things the way they are now are idiots ........

[Broncojef]

Ok first prove the graphic is innaccurate. Or shut up.

2nd the reason the bill is an epic fail is because the Health Care lobbyists, the party of NO, and special interest groups have gotten their mitts all over over it and turned it into a steaming turd.

Graphics can tell any tale. Do I want health care reform...sure. Do I want the health care reform Congress is currently contemplating...hell no. The simple truth is if it was that much of a huge win for America the party now in charge in both houses and sponsoring the bill would vote it in and be done with it no matter what conservatives like myself and others thought...These guys keep failing why do you want the government or them in charge of another facet of your life? YOU OWN BOTH HOUSES, YOU HAVE THE VOTES if the Democrats all liked it.

[ghwk]

i know this new healthcare bill has problems , and it isnt the end all of healthcare , alot of changes will be made to it , But bat **** , 50 K for a broken leg that doesnt need surgery ?
thats ****ed up , and it has to end ......
Dont give me any bull**** about insurance policies , Insurance companies will treat you the same way a john does with a 2 dollar crack whore when the cops show up .....I dont know her , never seen her before ........
you people that want to keep things the way they are now are idiots ........

Even if you don't like the new health care bill I am absolutely baffled by anyone who would defend the current system. Republicans are completely blind sometimes to how they keep getting swindled by thier own party and oligopolies just to defend an idology.

[Broncojef]

hmmm... do I believe gallup or do I believe the rants of a biased right-wing rep?

Cash for clunkers was a big success so therefore it is a failure in your book.

Cash for clunkers is a show piece for what healthcare reform will be like.
1) The government was clueless as to how much money would be used and how fast. They couldn't manage $1 Billion for a weekend and were clueless as to the numbers of people that would respond...out of touch financially.

2) The "system" being used to accept applications is slow and crashes constantlyl. Dealerships are making deals hoping the government will honor them as the system is constantly down. I was in a dealership last week and 17 people were on the phone waiting to see if the program was still a go.

3) The success you talk about is the government once again chosing where my tax dollars will be spent and handing the money out as they see fit. This isn't free money its more money being thrown onto the deficit and erroding our dollars value.

You want to stimulate the economy and increase production across America give hard working people and business owners more of their money back by decreasing taxes, hell you might even create jobs. Having the government take more in taxes, telling you how they will spend your dollars and erroding the value of money is no where close to a success story to me.

[ghwk]

Graphics can tell any tale. Do I want health care reform...sure. Do I want the health care reform Congress is currently contemplating...hell no. The simple truth is if it was that much of a huge win for America the party now in charge in both houses and sponsoring the bill would vote it in and be done with it no matter what conservatives like myself and others thought...These guys keep failing why do you want the government or them in charge of another facet of your life? YOU OWN BOTH HOUSES, YOU HAVE THE VOTES if the Democrats all liked it.

First the graphic isn't something that some yahoo just made up in powerpoint, it's a representation of the data. If the data had been collected by the Heritage foundation, or a democrat analog, I wolud naturally call it a piece of crap. But it's Gallup.

The reason it can't pass, even though we "own" both houses as you put it, is because the Dems aren't all a bunch of yes men like the frogmarchers that bent over for Bush for 8 years. It also demonstrates the party's diversity and unfortunately also demonstrates how far the lobbyists have permeated both parties.

[Broncojef]

Even if you don't like the new health care bill I am absolutely baffled by anyone who would defend the current system. Republicans are completely blind sometimes to how they keep getting swindled by thier own party and oligopolies just to defend an idology.

This isn't just Republicans, both parties are cluless and Americans deserve a well thought out bill with the issues talked out...not a Congress going on break in a week and we must pass this now problem. If this is such a frickin catastrophic issue why doesn't Congress man-up, cancel their vacations and battle out a true solution and get it signed. Don't tell me how life or death something is and procede to go golfing...just doesn't wash. The stimulus had to be signed, guys couldn't even read the damn bill cause it was so frickin critical and now we hear 80% of the money still hasn't been appropriated. barry campaigns that Bush's spending is out of control and unsustainable and then procedes to spend more in two months than Bush did in 8 years. We need to throw all these clowns out on their ear.

[Broncojef]

First the graphic isn't something that some yahoo just made up in powerpoint, it's a representation of the data. If the data had been collected by the Heritage foundation, or a democrat analog, I wolud naturally call it a piece of crap. But it's Gallup.

The reason it can't pass, even though we "own" both houses as you put it, is because the Dems aren't all a bunch of yes men like the frogmarchers that bent over for Bush for 8 years. It also demonstrates the party's diversity and unfortunately also demonstrates how far the lobbyists have permeated both parties.

Well I can agree with your last sentence at least. My point is in a poll you can ask it many ways and get many different reactions to the same issue. I just don't like polls they can be spun anyway you want and the context can be unclear. I don't trust anything I hear in the media. Its not they aren't yes men its they know what a piece of crap it is and even they can't sign it. they try to get opposition to buy in and sign it so when it goes south (and it will) thwey can point fingers and say the Republicans agreed with us. Both parties are dirty, to me the Dems are in charge and a little/lot more slimy.

[Rigs11]

This isn't just Republicans, both parties are cluless and Americans deserve a well thought out bill with the issues talked out...not a Congress going on break in a week and we must pass this now problem. If this is such a frickin catastrophic issue why doesn't Congress man-up, cancel their vacations and battle out a true solution and get it signed. Don't tell me how life or death something is and procede to go golfing...just doesn't wash. The stimulus had to be signed, guys couldn't even read the damn bill cause it was so frickin critical and now we hear 80% of the money still hasn't been appropriated. barry campaigns that Bush's spending is out of control and unsustainable and then procedes to spend more in two months than Bush did in 8 years. We need to throw all these clowns out on their ear.

how quickly you forget, don't remember when the rightards did everything in their power to stop healthcare reform back in the 90's? for forty years they've been talking about healthcare, enough talk.

[Rigs11]

Cash for clunkers is a show piece for what healthcare reform will be like.
1) The government was clueless as to how much money would be used and how fast. They couldn't manage $1 Billion for a weekend and were clueless as to the numbers of people that would respond...out of touch financially.

2) The "system" being used to accept applications is slow and crashes constantlyl. Dealerships are making deals hoping the government will honor them as the system is constantly down. I was in a dealership last week and 17 people were on the phone waiting to see if the program was still a go.

3) The success you talk about is the government once again chosing where my tax dollars will be spent and handing the money out as they see fit. This isn't free money its more money being thrown onto the deficit and erroding our dollars value.

You want to stimulate the economy and increase production across America give hard working people and business owners more of their money back by decreasing taxes, hell you might even create jobs. Having the government take more in taxes, telling you how they will spend your dollars and erroding the value of money is no where close to a success story to me.

Again how quickly you forget, tax cuts alone will not stimulate the economy. bush did an all it did was send the deficit through the roof.You know the deficit, that all you suddenly fiscally responsible rightards complain about, but don't want to pay.

[Bob]

I'm all for people voicing opinions to their representatives, but so many of there people aren't interested in making their case to their congresspeople...they just want to drown out any discussion with intimidation. If I was an intellectual conservative I'd be mortified at the direction the (vocal) right wing of this country seems to be headed.

<div><iframe height="339" width="425" src="http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22425001/vp/32277121#32277121" frameborder="0" scrolling="no"></iframe><p style="font-size:11px; font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; color: #999; margin-top: 5px; background: transparent; text-align: center; width: 425px;">Visit msnbc.com for <a style="text-decoration:none !important; border-bottom: 1px dotted #999 !important; font-weight:normal !important; height: 13px; color:#5799DB !important;" href="http://www.msnbc.msn.com">Breaking News</a>, <a href="http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3032507" style="text-decoration:none !important; border-bottom: 1px dotted #999 !important; font-weight:normal !important; height: 13px; color:#5799DB !important;">World News</a>, and <a href="http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3032072" style="text-decoration:none !important; border-bottom: 1px dotted #999 !important; font-weight:normal !important; height: 13px; color:#5799DB !important;">News about the Economy</a></p></div>

The sad fact is that, if we dont standup, they wont listen to the majority -- they will loose their jobs in Congress in a few years but only after they rape the system. What would it take for those in Congress to listen to Americans about immigration?

You guys are so freaking insulated from reality ...

[TailgateNut]

You want to stimulate the economy and increase production across America give hard working people and business owners more of their money back by decreasing taxes, .

Hilarious!

WTF is it with you rightards and your constant "Cut taxes" spiel? You bitch and moan about Obama spending and the distinct possibility of raising taxes to pay for those programs but have no problem with the Bush policy of spending without a source of funding for his programs and warmongering ways.

[broncofan7]

Are you really this stupid, or do you just read nothing and sit around listening to rightard radio all day?

http://sas-origin.onstreammedia.com/origin/gallupinc/GallupSpaces/Production/Cms/POLL/prk--aywqe2rohpeefcvva.gif

http://www.gallup.com/poll/121664/majority-favors-healthcare-reform-this-year.aspx

Obviously, because your column is against health care reform, then the majority must be against it. Right? Well, if that were true, maybe the last election would have come out a bit differently. Ya think?

DOH! NOOOOOOTTTT so fast my friend!

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124890178435291341.html



WASHINGTON -- Support for President Barack Obama's health-care effort has declined over the past five weeks, particularly among those who already have insurance, a Wall Street Journal/NBC News poll found, amid prolonged debate over costs and quality of care.

In mid-June, respondents were evenly divided when asked whether they thought Mr. Obama's health plan was a good or bad idea. In the new poll, conducted July 24-27, 42% called it a bad idea while 36% said it was a good idea.

Among those with private insurance, the proportion calling the plan a bad idea rose to 47% from 37%.

Declining popularity of the health-care overhaul reflects rising anxiety over the federal budget deficit and congressional debate over the most contentious aspects of the legislation, including how to pay for it. The poll also shows concern over the role of government in determining personal medical decisions.

See the link for more including graphics

[rastaman]

I dont mind talking about these isues rationally, and do, in the "real world" but when the majority of Americans do not want these changes, and those we elected seem so damn insistant, it is my responsbility to speak my mind. The more we see how the government runs things and ignores the people, the more we will see previously calm folks freak out. An increasing number of folks dont trust the government (any government) to administer healthcare.

An increasing number of Americans no longer trust "For Profit Private Corporate Healthcare" either.

[peacepipe]

An increasing number of Americans no longer trust "For Profit Private Corporate Healthcare" either.

I sure don't

[broncofan7]

I sure don't

There are some horror stories out there no doubt.........

[peacepipe]

More then just some & happening on a regular basis.

[broncofan7]

Here is an article form almost a decade ago--and although the gap has closed somewhat by some anecdotal evidence that I have seen--this is a GREAT synopsis:

http://www.cancer.org/docroot/NWS/content/NWS_1_1x_Study_Compares_U_S__and_European_Survival _Rates.asp


<table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="440"><tbody><tr><td class="T4" valign="top" width="100%">Study Compares U.S. and European Survival Rates</td> </tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="T8">Multinational Research Team Compares U.S. and European Survival Rates</td> </tr><tr><td colspan="2" height="10">http://www.cancer.org/common/images/shim.gif</td></tr> </tbody></table> <!-- END SECTION A; HEA MODULE --><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr><td class="T3" valign="top"> <!-- BEGIN News Article Date --> Article date: 2000/09/14 </td> </tr><tr><td valign="top" width="440"> <!-- BEGIN SECTION B -->U.S. patients have better survival rates than European patients for most types of cancer, according to a new study. The research also shows that as the age at cancer diagnosis increases, survival tends to decrease in both the U.S. and Europe, but more so in Europe. The study published in the journal Cancer (http://www.cancer.org/docroot/ipg.asp?sitename=Cancer&url=http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/cgi-bin/abstract/75501895/START) (Vol. 89, No. 4) reports on the survival rates of 738,076 European and 282,398 U.S. patients who were diagnosed between 1985 and 1989. A multinational team looked at survival rates for 12 different types of cancer, including lung, breast, stomach, colon, rectum, melanoma, cervical, uterine, ovarian and prostate. Only people with primary, first occurrence malignant tumors were included in the study. The researchers compared patients of similar age who had same type of cancer but race was not taken into account.
How the Study was Conducted
Data came from the National Cancer Institute’s (NCI) Surveillance, Epidemiology and End Results (SEER) program, which includes information on about 10 percent of those diagnosed with cancer in the U.S. Its European counterpart, EUROCARE, provided data from 17 European countries.
Using complex statistical methods, the researchers calculated survival rates for each type of cancer for both groups. The results show Americans have significantly better five-year relative survival rates for cancers including:


prostate (81 percent vs. 56 percent);
melanoma (86 percent vs. 76 percent);
colon (60 percent vs. 47 percent);
rectum (57 percent vs. 43 percent);
breast (82 percent vs. 73 percent), and
uterine cancer (83 percent vs. 73 percent).

However, the reverse was true for stomach cancer. U.S. survival rates trail slightly behind those of European patients (19 percent vs. 21 percent).
Early Detection is Important
As the age of cancer diagnosis increased, survival rates fell, the researchers also reported. This was true for all cancers except breast and prostate in both Americans and Europeans and colon cancer in U.S. patients.
For breast, colon and uterine cancers, survival rates between Americans and Europeans were very similar in patients 45 or younger. They were much better for Americans in the 65 and older age group. This could be because more Americans are being screened more often, especially at older ages, according to Lynn Ries, M.S., a statistician at the NCI and a co-author of the study.
Screening increases the likelihood that cancers will be found at an early stage, and finding cancer at an earlier stage means patients usually have a better chance for successful treatment. "More research is needed to pinpoint why there are survival differences -- when the reasons become clearer, steps can be taken to improve the cancer survival rates," Ries says.
More research is underway, including a project that will take a closer look at cancer survival differences between different countries. Researchers also plan to examine survival differences in relation to early detection, the stage of the cancer at the time of diagnosis and the type of treatment chosen.
Possible Reasons for Differences
Ted Gansler, M.D., health content director for the American Cancer Society (ACS), says this follow-up research will be especially interesting, because the current study measured differences in survival rates but could not determine the reasons for those differences.
They are likely to be due to a combination of three factors – differences in treatment, differences in screening that causes "lead time bias" and different rates of screening that cause a real survival benefit, he adds.
The first factor is relatively straightforward – people in the US with certain cancers are likely to be treated more intensively with high-tech methods than are patients in some European countries.
Hypothetical Examples
Dr. Gansler explains the second factor, known as lead time bias, by using an example of four hypothetical patients who developed cancers in 1990:
If two of the patients had cancers that could not be effectively treated and caused their deaths in five years, both would have died in 1995. If the American’s cancer was detected by a screening test in 1991, the survival time since diagnosis would have been four years. If the European’s cancer was found in 1993 at a late stage, when it started to cause symptoms, the survival time would have been only two years. Although the American’s survival time after diagnosis was longer than the European’s, both lived the same time after their cancer developed. This apparent increase in survival time is called lead time bias.
The third factor – differences in screening that can cause real survival benefit – can be understood by considering two other patients whose cancers developed in 1990, according to Dr. Gansler.
As in the other example, the American’s early stage cancer was found in 1991 by screening and the European’s was found at a late stage in 1993 when symptoms began to appear.
"This time, let’s assume that a treatment was available that was more effective for early stages of this type of cancer. This treatment might help the American live much longer, until 1999 perhaps, because treatment was started one year after the cancer developed," Dr. Gansler says. "Treating the European’s late stage cancer three years after it developed would be less effective, perhaps extending the patient’s life until 1996. In this scenario, the combination of screening and treatment added four years to the American’s life, but treatment without screening added only one year for the European."
Recommended Screening
These examples should certainly not imply that screening for cancer is done only in the U.S. It’s just done here more often than in most other countries, Dr. Gansler adds. "Determining whether screening tests for each type of cancer lengthens survival times by truly helping people live longer – not just by lead time bias – is important to the American Cancer Society and other organizations that recommend such tests," he says.
Based on this type of information, the ACS currently recommends screening tests and exams for early detection of cancers of the breast, prostate, cervix, colon and rectum. A cancer related check-up is also recommended that can help detect cancers of the skin, thyroid, mouth, ovaries, and testicles. As new information becomes available, these recommendations are continually updated and revised. Visit our Prevention & Early Detection (http://www.cancer.org/docroot/PED/ped_0.asp) information to learn more.
</td></tr></tbody></table>

[broncofan7]

More then just some & happening on a regular basis.

Is your back sore from reaching too much?

[Rohirrim]

DOH! NOOOOOOTTTT so fast my friend!

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124890178435291341.html



WASHINGTON -- Support for President Barack Obama's health-care effort has declined over the past five weeks, particularly among those who already have insurance, a Wall Street Journal/NBC News poll found, amid prolonged debate over costs and quality of care.

In mid-June, respondents were evenly divided when asked whether they thought Mr. Obama's health plan was a good or bad idea. In the new poll, conducted July 24-27, 42% called it a bad idea while 36% said it was a good idea.

Among those with private insurance, the proportion calling the plan a bad idea rose to 47% from 37%.

Declining popularity of the health-care overhaul reflects rising anxiety over the federal budget deficit and congressional debate over the most contentious aspects of the legislation, including how to pay for it. The poll also shows concern over the role of government in determining personal medical decisions.
See the link for more including graphics

:bs: :bs: :bs:

What it reflects is big pharma, the insurance industry, and the AMA spending two million dollars a day broadcasting their hysteria across the airwaves and literally scaring people off. You know, companies don't invest millions in advertising because it doesn't work. ;D (Leave it to the WSJ to bend it that way)

The truth is, health care costs have been rising an average of 20% per year and the health care industry profits have grown 400 million per year over the last five years. It is an anchor on the economy - especially small business. Sure, these robber barons don't want the system reformed. It's their gravy train. Why would they? But the system we have is unsustainable. We fix it, or it crashes. Simple.

[broncofan7]

:bs: :bs: :bs:

What it reflects is big pharma, the insurance industry, and the ama spending two million dollars a day broadcasting their hysteria across the airwaves and literally scaring people off. You know, companies don't invest millions in advertising because it doesn't work. ;d (leave it to the wsj to bend it that way)

the truth is, health care costs have been rising an average of 20% per year and the health care industry profits have grown 400 million per year over the last five years. It is an anchor on the economy - especially small business. Sure, these robber barons don't want the system reformed. It's their gravy train. Why would they? But the system we have is unsustainable. We fix it, or it crashes. Simple.

and nbc news. Nice Try.

[Rohirrim]

and nbc news. Nice Try.

Oh come on. In June, when Obama started ramping this up, the American people were all for it. Now, after almost two months of heavy "fear" bombardment, people are backing off. No big surprise there.

It doesn't change the facts, like I said above. Our health care system is dragging down our economy. Why do you think it has taken the #1 spot in Obama's economic plan? I'll tell you why. Because economists are telling Obama, "If we don't fix the health care system, it won't matter what else we do because we'll just be putting up more sail while dragging more anchor."

I won't be at all surprised to see the insurance/big pharma/AMA campaign work for them and crush this reform. They've been doing it for forty years. They're very good at it. Look at the Blue Dogs. They got their payoff and now they're doing what their masters demand: Shutting down the debate. Besides, people generally can't look down the road more than a few months at a time anyway. The idea that you fix something now to stop something else happening in five of ten years never sells. Like humans have always done, we'll deal with it when it falls on our heads. ???

[broncofan7]

Oh come on. In June, when Obama started ramping this up, the American people were all for it. Now, after almost two months of heavy "fear" bombardment, people are backing off. No big surprise there.

It doesn't change the facts, like I said above. Our health care system is dragging down our economy. Why do you think it has taken the #1 spot in Obama's economic plan? I'll tell you why. Because economists are telling Obama, "If we don't fix the health care system, it won't matter what else we do because we'll just be putting up more sail while dragging more anchor."

I won't be at all surprised to see the insurance/big pharma/AMA campaign work for them and crush this reform. They've been doing it for forty years. They're very good at it. Look at the Blue Dogs. They got their payoff and now they're doing what their masters demand: Shutting down the debate. Besides, people generally can't look down the road more than a few months at a time anyway. The idea that you fix something now to stop something else happening in five of ten years never sells. Like humans have always done, we'll deal with it when it falls on our heads. ???

LOL--you mean 2 months of people talking about THE OTHER SIDE OF HIS PLAN?When O speaks--it's all rainbows and GOLD---and if people dare to challenge his prognostications--they are 'RIGHTARDS' or worse..........

[Rohirrim]

LOL--you mean 2 months of people talking about THE OTHER SIDE OF HIS PLAN?When O speaks--it's all rainbows and GOLD---and if people dare to challenge his prognostications--they are 'RIGHTARDS' or worse..........

So, how long do you figure we can go on sustaining the health care system we have?

[TailgateNut]

LOL--you mean 2 months of people talking about THE OTHER SIDE OF HIS PLAN?When O speaks--it's all rainbows and GOLD---and if people dare to challenge his prognostications--they are 'RIGHTARDS' or worse..........


It's not "people talking", it's the medical lobbyists spewing dis-information. We're going to "loose 55000 jobs locally"has been a full page ad in the local fish rag. Then you've got the "rationed health" care BS to scare the dummified American. Add some "goverment control" to give it a ****tier taste and all the lemmings are ready to revolt.

Health care insurance premiums, prescription prices and medical fees are nothing less than highway robbery. Period. The Doctors, Hospitals, Pharmaceutical companies and the rest of their ilk are fighting this tooth and nail. They have been exposed and don't want to loose their pot o gold.

[TailgateNut]

I had a minor surgery a few years back. I had insurance but for some oddball reason I was sent a full invoice $17000.00 for a few hours in the hospital. GIVE ME A ****ING BREAK! The prices being charged are ludicrous and the meds are marked up 200-300% of what they would cost at the local Walgreens. ****ing tongue depressors and cotton swaps don't cost $5 ea anywhere except the hospital. FIVE ****ING DOLLARS for a piece of wood.

[broncofan7]

I had a minor surgery a few years back. I had insurance but for some oddball reason I was sent a full invoice $17000.00 for a few hours in the hospital. GIVE ME A ****ING BREAK! The prices being charged are ludicrous and the meds are marked up 200-300% of what they would cost at the local Walgreens. ****ing tongue depressors and cotton swaps don't cost $5 ea anywhere except the hospital. FIVE ****ING DOLLARS for a piece of wood.

I can relate to some of the charges that we see at certain hospitals --they seem to be out of line and dependent upon WHICH 3rd party payer we submit too---and they usually submit a higher dollar amount that then intend to actually receive 99.9% of the time---Did you contact them and attempt to negotiate?

There REALLY needs to be transparency in the pricing of medical services--literally a McDonalds like menu with pricing--so that BCBS doesn't get charged $4500 while Cigna gets billed on $1200 for the performacne of the SAME procedure.

[TailgateNut]

I can relate to some of the charges that we see at certain hospitals --they seem to be out of line and dependent upon WHICH 3rd party payer we submit too---and they usually submit a higher dollar amount that then intend to actually receive 99.9% of the time---Did you contact them and attempt to negotiate?

There REALLY needs to be transparency in the pricing of medical services--literally a McDonalds like menu with pricing--so that BCBS doesn't get charged $4500 while Cigna gets billed on $1200 for the performacne of the SAME procedure.

I didn't need to negotiate. The invoice was sent to me by mistake. I had to pay my deductible and the insurance company paid the rest. I posted this to illustrate the ridiculously inflated costs of medical care. I can't remember the exact dollar figure for latex gloves, but it was another item which was laughable. I buy boxes of gloves for my company for use in potable water enviroment work, and I pay less per box than those ****wads charge for one pair.


Aspirin and pain meds are another criminally priced item. I guess you have to factor in the little paper cup and the fat nurses' salary to be able to "swallow" the charge.

[Mk69]

They are now working to ensure that health care reform can't even be discussed. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/denise-dennis/right-wingers-wreak-havoc_b_249897.html

Look, America! This is where the Right is coming from: Storm trooperville. :welcome:

Funny. In the opinion piece it says "To emotionally charged questions about abortion and assisted suicide, Sebelius calmly answered, "Abortion and assisted suicide are not a part of the legislation."" yet the second article linked below the piece is "Abortion Coverage Allowed in Health Care Legislation". Is it any wonder people are pissed.

[TailgateNut]

Funny. In the opinion piece it says "To emotionally charged questions about abortion and assisted suicide, Sebelius calmly answered, "Abortion and assisted suicide are not a part of the legislation."" yet the second article linked below the piece is "Abortion Coverage Allowed in Health Care Legislation". Is it any wonder people are pissed.


"We want to see people who have no health insurance get it, but this is a sticking point," said Richard Doerflinger, associate director of pro-life activities for the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops. "We don't want health care reform to be the vehicle for mandating abortion." The church can't accept a public plan that covers abortion, he said.


Here come the religious nuts again attempting to mix Church and state.

The church doesn't have to "accept" anything. Stay the **** out of goverment business.

[Rohirrim]

Funny. In the opinion piece it says "To emotionally charged questions about abortion and assisted suicide, Sebelius calmly answered, "Abortion and assisted suicide are not a part of the legislation."" yet the second article linked below the piece is "Abortion Coverage Allowed in Health Care Legislation". Is it any wonder people are pissed.

Links?

[broncofan7]

"We want to see people who have no health insurance get it, but this is a sticking point," said Richard Doerflinger, associate director of pro-life activities for the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops. "We don't want health care reform to be the vehicle for mandating abortion." The church can't accept a public plan that covers abortion, he said.


Here come the religious nuts again attempting to mix Church and state.

The church doesn't have to "accept" anything. Stay the **** out of goverment business.

Finally--common ground.

[Rohirrim]

I was watching Chris Matthews last night and during their discussion they mentioned that abortion coverage is not included in the package. They said it would be a "deal killer" if it was. So, I'm guessing this is just more Right wing red meat. Anyway, the Hyde Amendment bans any federal monies being used for abortions so the point is moot.

[Mk69]

Links?

It's all in your link.

[Smiling Assassin27]

Yeah, the double standard here is simply amazing. For 8 years, people found it OK to berate, ridicule, castigate, and even enlist violence to show their dissent against the previous administration. They'd shout down opponents, they'd hatefully go after the PERSON rather than their message or idea. They'd cause civil unrest and intimidate both physically and verbally, yet never quite got around to addressing issues with any depth, intelligence, or reason.

Now, Congress has so badly overstepped its bounds and assumed authority that it never was given by the populace and voters are angry. They pass bills without reading them, they defy their constituencies for political gain, they deceitfully sneak in provisions to legislation at 2am, and worst of all, they expect no reprisal for this crap. They've been spoon fed the very same talking points that Obama is using on health care and are shamelessly regurgitating them to their constituents. They are insisting that health care reform a) happen and b) happen immediately with many on record as saying they will vote for Obama's plan EVEN IF THE CONSTITUENCY IS DEAD SET AGAINST IT. This is arrogance, plain and simple.

As for being shouted down, if the legislators had an iota of class, intelligence, perspective, and perseverance, they could engage in issues debate. Instead, they are antagonistic, unapologetic, and defiant toward the very people who elected them. They have used the standard argument that if we don't agree with health care reform (in any number of forms it has taken), we either aren't smart enough to get it or we just don't know what's good for us. This is insulting, and so I fully understand the anger in these town halls.

Rest assured, it IS real, no matter how much Obama and his moronic staff insist it's just packaged rebellion. The proof will be in the election returns. I didn't begrudge Dems the right to be indignant about the issues they felt strongly about, but never was OK with their more extreme methods of ugliness. The same holds true for these folks. Be angry if you want, but raise your standards regarding your methods, people. Do not stoop to the crass, vulgar, and irrational actions of the last 8 years--voice your anger, but for God sakes, HAVE AN ARGUMENT.

[broncofan7]

it's all in your link.

Hilarious!

[Mk69]

"We want to see people who have no health insurance get it, but this is a sticking point," said Richard Doerflinger, associate director of pro-life activities for the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops. "We don't want health care reform to be the vehicle for mandating abortion." The church can't accept a public plan that covers abortion, he said.


Here come the religious nuts again attempting to mix Church and state.

The church doesn't have to "accept" anything. Stay the **** out of goverment business.

Abortion wasn't the point. The point is Sebelius is either stupid or a liar.

[Smiling Assassin27]

I was watching Chris Matthews last night and during their discussion they mentioned that abortion coverage is not included in the package. They said it would be a "deal killer" if it was. So, I'm guessing this is just more Right wing red meat. Anyway, the Hyde Amendment bans any federal monies being used for abortions so the point is moot.

The Hyde Amendment won't/might not apply. The plan will subsidize Americans to buy insurance coverage and the stream of funds will be Federal and taxpayer funded, but not subject to Hyde. It's a totally new stream of federal funds and I will be paying for abortions and so will you.

[Smiling Assassin27]

Abortion wasn't the point. The point is Sebelius is either stupid or a liar.

She's both, but that seems to be a prerequisite for employment with the White House these days. ROFL!

[Rohirrim]

It's all in your link.

I've looked twice and see no mention of the link you mention.

[Dukes]

Looks like people are just doing as Obama asked. Funny when the most famous Community Organizer of them all has his tactics used against him.

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/ZCMDur9CDZ4&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/ZCMDur9CDZ4&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

Can anyone prove that just one person at these rallies were paid by Big Pharma?

[Spider]

Looks like people are just doing as Obama asked. Funny when the most famous Community Organizer of them all has his tactics used against him.

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/ZCMDur9CDZ4&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/ZCMDur9CDZ4&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

Can anyone prove that just one person at these rallies were paid by Big Pharma?
ever hear of advertising ?

[Smiling Assassin27]

By the way, here are some articles about how the previous admin dealt with dissent compared with how our new admin does it:

http://www.redorbit.com/news/general/199553/white_house_officials_meet_antiwar_protesters/index.html

National Security Adviser Steven Hadley and Deputy White House chief of staff Joe Hagin listened to the concerns of Cindy Sheehan and five or six other mothers in a meeting that lasted about 45 minutes, White House spokesman Trent Duffy said. Duffy said Sheehan told the two officials she appreciated the meeting.



http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,75946,00.html
"I think the president welcomes the fact that we are a democracy and people in the United States, unlike Iraq, are free to protest and to make their case known," Bush's spokesman, Ari Fleischer, said Friday.




http://georgewbush-whitehouse.archives.gov/news/releases/2005/12/20051228.html
The American people have a right to protest, and the right of free speech is something that we're fighting for in this war on terror, to preserve that right of free speech. So the President welcomes opinions from all Americans.



http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12632127/
ATLANTA - Protesters repeatedly interrupted Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld during a speech Thursday, and one man, a former CIA analyst, accused him of lying about Iraq prewar intelligence in an unusually vociferous display of antiwar sentiment.

“Why did you lie to get us into a war that caused these kind of casualties and was not necessary?” asked Ray McGovern, the former analyst, during a question-and-answer session.

“I did not lie,” shot back Rumsfeld, who waved off security guards ready to remove McGovern from the hall at the Southern Center for International Studies.




Compare that with the crap the DNC has released...

The Republicans and their allied groups – desperate after losing two consecutive elections and every major policy fight on Capitol Hill – are inciting angry mobs of a small number of rabid right wing extremists funded by K Street Lobbyists to disrupt thoughtful discussions about the future of health care in America taking place in Congressional Districts across the country.



The right wing extremists’ use of things like devil horns on pictures of our elected officials, hanging members of Congress in effigy, breathlessly questioning the President's citizenship and the use of Nazi SS symbols and the like just shows how outside of the mainstream the Republican Party and their allies are. This type of anger and discord did not serve Republicans well in 2008 – and it is bound to backfire again.

[broncofan7]

Why does it even matter what the 'right-tards' are saying or doing? The DEMS could pass UHC WITHOUT A SINGLE REPUBLICAN VOTE.

[TailgateNut]

Yeah, the double standard here is simply amazing. For 8 years, people found it OK to berate, ridicule, castigate, and even enlist violence to show their dissent against the previous administration. They'd shout down opponents, they'd hatefully go after the PERSON rather than their message or idea. They'd cause civil unrest and intimidate both physically and verbally, yet never quite got around to addressing issues with any depth, intelligence, or reason.

Now, Congress has so badly overstepped its bounds and assumed authority that it never was given by the populace and voters are angry. They pass bills without reading them, they defy their constituencies for political gain, they deceitfully sneak in provisions to legislation at 2am, and worst of all, they expect no reprisal for this crap. They've been spoon fed the very same talking points that Obama is using on health care and are shamelessly regurgitating them to their constituents. They are insisting that health care reform a) happen and b) happen immediately with many on record as saying they will vote for Obama's plan EVEN IF THE CONSTITUENCY IS DEAD SET AGAINST IT. This is arrogance, plain and simple.

As for being shouted down, if the legislators had an iota of class, intelligence, perspective, and perseverance, they could engage in issues debate. Instead, they are antagonistic, unapologetic, and defiant toward the very people who elected them. They have used the standard argument that if we don't agree with health care reform (in any number of forms it has taken), we either aren't smart enough to get it or we just don't know what's good for us. This is insulting, and so I fully understand the anger in these town halls.

Rest assured, it IS real, no matter how much Obama and his moronic staff insist it's just packaged rebellion. The proof will be in the election returns. I didn't begrudge Dems the right to be indignant about the issues they felt strongly about, but never was OK with their more extreme methods of ugliness. The same holds true for these folks. Be angry if you want, but raise your standards regarding your methods, people. Do not stoop to the crass, vulgar, and irrational actions of the last 8 years--voice your anger, but for God sakes, HAVE AN ARGUMENT.

Where to start?

First of all Bush did receive this type of treatment until after the thinking populace realized he was LYING every time he opened his trap.


Who caused "civil unrest and intimitaded anyone physically"? Bushs patriot clauses and act would have had those people investigated. In addition he did not allow those with opposing viewpoint to attend any of his "town hall meetings". Those who opposed him were labeled as un-american and un-patriotic. Using that logic, I could now label you as being "Un Patriotic".

Where tdo you get the "EVEN IF THE CONSTITUENCY IS DEAD SET AGAINST IT."? Just because a minority does not agree with this bill, does not mean that everyone is DEAD SET AGAINST IT.

RE: being shouted down by a bunch of MORONS. These legislators were being civil. The ones causing the unrest should have been ARRESTED, or as your hero used to do, not allowed on the premises.

[Dukes]

Why does it even matter what the 'right-tards' are saying or doing? The DEMS could pass UHC WITHOUT A SINGLE REPUBLICAN VOTE.

Exactly, it's a testiment to what a cluster **** that bill is.

[Spider]

Yeah, the double standard here is simply amazing. For 8 years, people found it OK to berate, ridicule, castigate, and even enlist violence to show their dissent against the previous administration. They'd shout down opponents, they'd hatefully go after the PERSON rather than their message or idea. They'd cause civil unrest and intimidate both physically and verbally, yet never quite got around to addressing issues with any depth, intelligence, or reason.

Now, Congress has so badly overstepped its bounds and assumed authority that it never was given by the populace and voters are angry. They pass bills without reading them, they defy their constituencies for political gain, they deceitfully sneak in provisions to legislation at 2am, and worst of all, they expect no reprisal for this crap. They've been spoon fed the very same talking points that Obama is using on health care and are shamelessly regurgitating them to their constituents. They are insisting that health care reform a) happen and b) happen immediately with many on record as saying they will vote for Obama's plan EVEN IF THE CONSTITUENCY IS DEAD SET AGAINST IT. This is arrogance, plain and simple.

As for being shouted down, if the legislators had an iota of class, intelligence, perspective, and perseverance, they could engage in issues debate. Instead, they are antagonistic, unapologetic, and defiant toward the very people who elected them. They have used the standard argument that if we don't agree with health care reform (in any number of forms it has taken), we either aren't smart enough to get it or we just don't know what's good for us. This is insulting, and so I fully understand the anger in these town halls.

Rest assured, it IS real, no matter how much Obama and his moronic staff insist it's just packaged rebellion. The proof will be in the election returns. I didn't begrudge Dems the right to be indignant about the issues they felt strongly about, but never was OK with their more extreme methods of ugliness. The same holds true for these folks. Be angry if you want, but raise your standards regarding your methods, people. Do not stoop to the crass, vulgar, and irrational actions of the last 8 years--voice your anger, but for God sakes, HAVE AN ARGUMENT.

you suffer from memory loss or retardation ?

[TailgateNut]

you suffer from memory loss or retardation ?


Both, and add a bit of envy.

[Spider]

both, and add a bit of envy.

;d

[Dukes]

Both, and add a bit of envy.

Envy is the backbone of the left. Envious of money, and anyone with more power than them.

[TailgateNut]

Envy is the backbone of the left. Envious of money, and anyone with more power than them.

:rofl:

[Mk69]

I've looked twice and see no mention of the link you mention.
The "Abortion Coverage Allowed in Health Care Legislation" link is below the column in the "More in Eyes & Ears" section.

[Bob]

An increasing number of Americans no longer trust "For Profit Private Corporate Healthcare" either.

True, I think trust is in short supply...

[Bob]

:bs: :bs: :bs:

What it reflects is big pharma, the insurance industry, and the AMA spending two million dollars a day broadcasting their hysteria across the airwaves and literally scaring people off. You know, companies don't invest millions in advertising because it doesn't work. ;D (Leave it to the WSJ to bend it that way)

The truth is, health care costs have been rising an average of 20% per year and the health care industry profits have grown 400 million per year over the last five years. It is an anchor on the economy - especially small business. Sure, these robber barons don't want the system reformed. It's their gravy train. Why would they? But the system we have is unsustainable. We fix it, or it crashes. Simple.

You have a point, that costs if they continue upward make healthcare unsustainable, but like most Americans, I dont think that government will do it cheaper or better. Its weird that with EVERY problem the left assumes that more government will make it better, when it was the involvement of government that in most cases that created the problem in the first place. In healthcare it has been 80 years since government didint have its hands deeply involved -- so suggesting, that more poision is needed, is exactly, what has been added almost every decade. I wonder if fraud was reduced in Medicaid and Medicare, if that would be one step in the right direction. If more private competition could be "encouraged" if that would drive prices down.

Obama wants a one party payor source and has stated so (in the past.) This is about control, sadly.

[Bob]

Oh come on. In June, when Obama started ramping this up, the American people were all for it. Now, after almost two months of heavy "fear" bombardment, people are backing off. No big surprise there.

It doesn't change the facts, like I said above. Our health care system is dragging down our economy. Why do you think it has taken the #1 spot in Obama's economic plan? I'll tell you why. Because economists are telling Obama, "If we don't fix the health care system, it won't matter what else we do because we'll just be putting up more sail while dragging more anchor."

I won't be at all surprised to see the insurance/big pharma/AMA campaign work for them and crush this reform. They've been doing it for forty years. They're very good at it. Look at the Blue Dogs. They got their payoff and now they're doing what their masters demand: Shutting down the debate. Besides, people generally can't look down the road more than a few months at a time anyway. The idea that you fix something now to stop something else happening in five of ten years never sells. Like humans have always done, we'll deal with it when it falls on our heads. ???

Or people see these idiots not reading the bills, and not being able to run a manual transmission....

Hey, I know you get all your info from Huffington, and MSNBC, but Blue Dogs are not backing off because they are beholden to big business, they are concerned and rightly so for their jobs.

[cutthemdown]

yeah bob he has said he thinks single payer would work, but at same time no way he pushes through a single payer system right now.

It will have to be a compromise of some sort if it gets done at all.

[Bob]

So, how long do you figure we can go on sustaining the health care system we have?

How come you understand that it is not sustainable, but believe that government can do it better or cheaper? Have you spoken to anyone from other countries, who have experience with both systems?

[Bob]

you suffer from memory loss or retardation ?

You may disagree with some of the content, but on the point that the rage is real, and the speaking out against having the government take over healthcare is spot on. Many will lose their jobs over this issue -- and that's just in Congress...Blue Dogs know the discontent is real, and that they will be voted out, if they support something their constituents in growing percentages do not want.

This administration can’t recognize grass roots from Acorns, as they are so used to small numbers or war protesters being heavily covered by a like-minded media or fabricated outrage by groups like SIEU, or Acorn. Even if the admin do recognize that real folks are very upset as the media and government ignore and misrepresent them, I think they feel it is smarter to characterize the majority as "extreme" or what they are doing is orchcrastrated, most parroting the news will back them up – maybe it will stick. When you believe that you are too smart to listen, its only natural to belittle and berate, that’s been the policy for many years now, with both parties.

[Bob]

yeah bob he has said he thinks single payer would work, but at same time no way he pushes through a single payer system right now.

It will have to be a compromise of some sort if it gets done at all.

True, but I dont think the goal is to create single payor in one year -- his own words suggest that this is a 10-15 year transition to a one payor source, if I remember correctly.

I do feel something needs to be done to improve healthcare (what decent person doesnt?)

But I contend that if Americans let government run more of the system, that it would be creating the framework from the destruction of the private system. How much of the private health insurance and healthcare sytem is left in England?

[Bob]

Why does it even matter what the 'right-tards' are saying or doing? The DEMS could pass UHC WITHOUT A SINGLE REPUBLICAN VOTE.

Good point, they could pass it -- I wonder if the same thing would be true when they were up for re-election? The Blue Dogs (who reside in conservative states will be crushed, if they think the protests are fake, or fringe.

[Dukes]

True, but I dont think the goal is to create single payor in one year -- his own words suggest that this is a 10-15 year transition to a one payor source, if I remember correctly.

I do feel something needs to be done to improve healthcare (what decent person doesnt?)

But I contend that if Americans let government run more of the system, that it would be creating the framework from the destruction of the private system. How much of the private health insurance and healthcare sytem is left in England?

Couldn't agree more. I'd start with forcing Insurance companies to uphold the policies of their customers. No more canceling plans when someone gets sick, that's just dispicable. Then once that's done I'd set a profit limit in line with most other industries that do business in the US (7-15%)

[Bob]

Couldn't agree more. I'd start with forcing Insurance companies to uphold the policies of their customers. No more canceling plans when someone gets sick, that's just dispicable. Then once that's done I'd set a profit limit in line with most other industries that do business in the US (7-15%)

The idea of being able to enter into private contracts between two parties is protected by the Constitution, and those agreements should be upheld, but the profit limit is a slippery slope -- who decides what is too much? And if there is a cap on how much money a company can make, it takes self-interest out of the capitalist system. But there are some things that could be done, if prices are going up by huge percentages year after a year:

1. Is there illegal price fixing taking place?
2. Is there a way to increase the number of businesses that offer healthcare or healthcare coverage?
3. Is there a way to deduce fraud? (Yup.)
4. Reduce the number of illegal imigrants who get healthcare here
5. Reduce settlements, so MD's insurance woudl not have to be sky high, which in turn would incraese teh number who practed in certain fields.

If all of these things were actually done, it would create real savings

[Spider]

You may disagree with some of the content, but on the point that the rage is real, and the speaking out against having the government take over healthcare is spot on. Many will lose their jobs over this issue -- and that's just in Congress...Blue Dogs know the discontent is real, and that they will be voted out, if they support something their constituents in growing percentages do not want.

This administration can’t recognize grass roots from Acorns, as they are so used to small numbers or war protesters being heavily covered by a like-minded media or fabricated outrage by groups like SIEU, or Acorn. Even if the admin do recognize that real folks are very upset as the media and government ignore and misrepresent them, I think they feel it is smarter to characterize the majority as "extreme" or what they are doing is orchcrastrated, most parroting the news will back them up – maybe it will stick. When you believe that you are too smart to listen, its only natural to belittle and berate, that’s been the policy for many years now, with both parties.

I disagree with all of it ....Do yourself a favor , google healthcare cost USA vs any other country , then look at our care given ........

[Bob]

I disagree with all of it ....Do yourself a favor , google healthcare cost USA vs any other country , then look at our care given ........

You get what you pay for, and that is why those people with $ living in other countries some here for care, and not to Cuba. That is why we create so many of the new medications (there is some profit in it.)

[Dukes]

The idea of being able to enter into private contracts between two parties is protected by the Constitution, and those agreements should be upheld, but the profit limit is a slippery slope -- who decides what is too much? And if there is a cap on how much money a company can make, it takes self-interest out of the capitalist system. But there are some things that could be done, if prices are going up by huge percentages year after a year:

1. Is there illegal price fixing taking place?
2. Is there a way to increase the number of businesses that offer healthcare or healthcare coverage?
3. Is there a way to deduce fraud? (Yup.)
4. Reduce the number of illegal imigrants who get healthcare here
5. Reduce settlements, so MD's insurance woudl not have to be sky high, which in turn would incraese teh number who practed in certain fields.

If all of these things were actually done, it would create real savings


It is a slippery slope, but because Capitalism can't work the way it should (where competition keeps prices low) I think it's the best possible alternative. Nobody can complain about 7-15% profits.

[Spider]

You get what you pay for, and that is why those people with $ living in other countries some here for care, and not to Cuba. That is why we create so many of the new medications (there is some profit in it.)
Bull**** , I paid my premiums every freaking month , then when we found out we was having triplets , they dropped our asses ..........
and you got it ass backwards , the people that come here are from Canada , most go to France or Italy .........
Look I am blue collar man , I am part of the Americans they talk about , and I ma telling you right here right now , you right wingers are full of **** .......

[Bob]

It is a slippery slope, but because Capitalism can't work the way it should (where competition keeps prices low) I think it's the best possible alternative. Nobody can complain about 7-15% profits.

I do honestly wonder what it would take for more private industry to get into the game?

[Bob]

Bull**** , I paid my premiums every freaking month , then when we found out we was having triplets , they dropped our asses ..........
and you got it ass backwards , the people that come here are from Canada , most go to France or Italy .........
Look I am blue collar man , I am part of the Americans they talk about , and I ma telling you right here right now , you right wingers are full of **** .......

I dont have time to look it up now, but I do doubt the assertion that most go to France or Italy for care...

One should ask why they have to leave the country for care in the first place?

[cutthemdown]

True, but I dont think the goal is to create single payor in one year -- his own words suggest that this is a 10-15 year transition to a one payor source, if I remember correctly.

I do feel something needs to be done to improve healthcare (what decent person doesnt?)

But I contend that if Americans let government run more of the system, that it would be creating the framework from the destruction of the private system. How much of the private health insurance and healthcare sytem is left in England?

Yeah but you do agree we can do it better then other countries. I refuse to believe we can't do better, get more people covered, and still have great care.

The problem is the govt to do this has to be willing to cut defense and entitlements even more. Maybe even cut social security a tad and screw some people like we always knew it would.

You mention doing those things and the country turns into california. Screaming for low taxes, great services, which might not be possible if the govt wants to continue to spend of defense, social security, welfare at the same levels.

Every ying has a yang and sometimes there is no way to pay for everything.

[Paladin]

Given how well the government has done with running public education, you can understand why Rohrimjob thinks it is a good idea they try their hand at running health care.

You do know that Public Education is under STATE jurisdiction, right? Jeezus. How stupid can you be?

[cutthemdown]

I dont like using the other countries as templates or prognostications. We have always went our own way, figured things out our own way. IMO this should be no different.

First thing is to get everyone covered. IMO that means forcing people who have the extra money to buy private insurance. At least to buy major medical etc. Everyone should be covered for major medical emergencies and injuries but many who are not just refuse to spend the money on it and instead risk it.

Then after we really know who needs govt help figure out a plan for them.

If I was in charge my first order would be a mandate every American buy insurance. If you can't afford it you have to fill out paperwork that proves you can't.

Then after a yr or so of doing that we should be able to say most people who can afford to buy it are know insured. Then we could come up with a way to get everyone else covered.

[cutthemdown]

You do know that Public Education is under STATE jurisdiction, right? Jeezus. How stupid can you be?

well govt is govt but yeah feds only squirt some money over it and set some guidlines for testing I believe.

No one probably would feel better about the state of california running insurance either. They can't even get done whats on the plate right now.

[frerottenextelway]

well govt is govt but yeah feds only squirt some money over it and set some guidlines for testing I believe.

No one probably would feel better about the state of california running insurance either. They can't even get done whats on the plate right now.

California passed single payer twice, but both times it got vetoed by Arnold.

It's a shame, that's how Canada got single payer. One Province passed it, then the others got wowed by it. Then another passed it. And another, until the whole country had it.

[Bob]

California passed single payer twice, but both times it got vetoed by Arnold.

It's a shame, that's how Canada got single payer. One Province passed it, then the others got wowed by it. Then another passed it. And another, until the whole country had it.

I wish among other things, that folks in office were straight about their intent -- like on this point, if passed in part, it will lead to single payor. Obama, in 2003? stated he was in favor of single payor, but now claims to be ok with the private option, when he knows how things shaked out elsewhere.

I dont know what to do with a state that votes for single payor, like gay marraige, I think that one has to respect what the majority wants in the state? I know in a republic elected leaders dont have to go allong, but at some point will pay with their jobs -- I woudl have had a hard time choosing if I was Arnold...

[Bob]

Yeah but you do agree we can do it better then other countries. I refuse to believe we can't do better, get more people covered, and still have great care.

The problem is the govt to do this has to be willing to cut defense and entitlements even more. Maybe even cut social security a tad and screw some people like we always knew it would.

You mention doing those things and the country turns into california. Screaming for low taxes, great services, which might not be possible if the govt wants to continue to spend of defense, social security, welfare at the same levels.

Every ying has a yang and sometimes there is no way to pay for everything.

Im not sure if this is what you are asking...but if we went to single payor, we might do it better if we were not so in debt. However one reason we can do it better in terms of quality right now is because of the capitalist system and the profit, that has been spurred on innovation -- if that self-interest is taken out we could live on the fumes of the past for several years .. just like we could cut back drasticly on military R&D but drip by drip we would slip.

[sisterhellfyre]

Do not stoop to the crass, vulgar, and irrational actions of the last 8 years--voice your anger, but for God sakes, HAVE AN ARGUMENT.

"Have a take and don't suck?"

[Breaker]

So, how long do you figure we can go on sustaining the health care system we have?

Probably as long as we can Social Security but you think that SS is just fine the way it is being a good little Democrat.

[Breaker]

Bull**** , I paid my premiums every freaking month , then when we found out we was having triplets , they dropped our asses ..........
and you got it ass backwards , the people that come here are from Canada , most go to France or Italy .........
Look I am blue collar man , I am part of the Americans they talk about , and I ma telling you right here right now , you right wingers are full of **** .......

Yep a blue collar guy that has said he makes over 100 k a year. Why you sure are the average American there Spider, yep you sure are.

[Spider]

Yep a blue collar guy that has said he makes over 100 k a year. Why you sure are the average American there Spider, yep you sure are.
yep ..........Oh and skilled labor is blue collar , plenty of trades that are blue collar that make more then me .Electrician , welders , various types of Mechanics , crane operators , Cat skinners .......etc , All of these trades pay well and are blue collar to boot

[TailgateNut]

You may disagree with some of the content, but on the point that the rage is real, and the speaking out against having the government take over healthcare is spot on. Many will lose their jobs over this issue -- .

Who?
The pharma reps who peddle meds which cost them pennies to make for profit margins in excess of 100%.
The insurance company sales people who peddle their policies with more exclusions than inclusions?

Boo ****ing hoo

[Rohirrim]

Probably as long as we can Social Security but you think that SS is just fine the way it is being a good little Democrat.

I'm a registered Independent and you have no idea what I think, ahole.

[Bronco Bob]

Can anyone prove that just one person at these rallies were paid by Big Pharma?

No one said these people were being paid directly. The are being
incited to riot by articles paid for by the health insurance lobby.
Stalin used to call these people like these "useful idiots".

[TailgateNut]

stalin used to call these people like these "useful idiots".


lol

[Rohirrim]

No one said these people were being paid directly. The are being
incited to riot by articles paid for by the health insurance lobby.
Stalin used to call these people like these "useful idiots".

Yeah. Chris Matthews had the leader of one of these organizations (The Freedom Walkers or some such nonsense) on the other night. The guy was not at liberty to discuss who was funding him, but he sure could spout the statute, number and verse, that protected his right to organize these protests while keeping his donors secret. I guess it was part of the 527 deal. Like the Swift Boaters, you can't find out where the money comes from. Not to hard to imagine who is doing the funding, though. ;D

[TailgateNut]

Yeah. Chris Matthews had the leader of one of these organizations (The Freedom Walkers or some such nonsense) on the other night. The guy was not at liberty to discuss who was funding him, but he sure could spout the statute, number and verse, that protected his right to organize these protests while keeping his donors secret. I guess it was part of the 527 deal. Like the Swift Boaters, you can't find out where the money comes from. Not to hard to imagine who is doing the funding, though. ;D

Multiple choice:

1. Big Pharma
2. Med insurance co's.
3. Doctors
4. Hospital/ Medical org's

[Rohirrim]

Multiple choice:

1. Big Pharma
2. Med insurance co's.
3. Doctors
4. Hospital/ Medical org's

Or Fox Infotainment? ;)

[frerottenextelway]

Story at TPM that teabaggers spreading word to take guns to the townhalls. No link because I'm on the cell