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View Full Version : Manny, Ortiz tested positive


maher_tyler
07-30-2009, 03:49 PM
Didn't see it posted...

Manny isn't as surprising...

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=4366335

tsiguy96
07-30-2009, 03:50 PM
ortiz does have a point in that, at the time, it wasnt breaking the rules to be using. against the law, yes. but not against the rules at the time.

lex
07-30-2009, 03:52 PM
http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showpost.php?p=2487055&postcount=756

BTW, is it actually illegal in the DR? Im under the impression that its not.

maher_tyler
07-30-2009, 03:56 PM
Just makes Griffey look that much better!! To wonder what could have happened had he stayed healthy.

SureShot
07-30-2009, 03:59 PM
ortiz does have a point in that, at the time, it wasnt breaking the rules to be using. against the law, yes. but not against the rules at the time.

Blah blah blah he would be an empty uniform without the juice.

tsiguy96
07-30-2009, 04:02 PM
Blah blah blah he would be an empty uniform without the juice.

i dont give a **** about baseball at all, just saying, he does have a point. doesnt make it right as now they have to compare records to people who werent on (or were they and they didnt get caught?)

SureShot
07-30-2009, 04:04 PM
i dont give a **** about baseball at all, just saying, he does have a point. doesnt make it right as now they have to compare records to people who werent on (or were they and they didnt get caught?)

Any and all dopers should be expunged from the record books. Give Maris and Aaron back the records as home run kings.

lex
07-30-2009, 04:06 PM
Any and all dopers should be expunged from the record books. Give Maris and Aaron back the records as home run kings.

For all the boo hooing you here from the media, not enough people really care.

sutoazul
07-30-2009, 04:06 PM
http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showpost.php?p=2487055&postcount=756

BTW, is it actually illegal in the DR? Im under the impression that its not.

It was not ilegal at the time in the DR either, just as it wasn't in the majors. However it was frowned upon just like in the US.

Something that's bothering me is that all the guys "new" guys that are being routed out on the steroids scandals are mostly Dominicans.

I think they should just make all the names public from that damn list. It's a shame for baseball that all it's best players are comming out to be all positive one time or another.

maher_tyler
07-30-2009, 04:11 PM
Any and all dopers should be expunged from the record books. Give Maris and Aaron back the records as home run kings.

How do you know they weren't taking anything?? It wasn't illeagal in baseball to do it until 04-05. It wasn't against the rules to take that stuff then so who cares..i would have done it to. You can't tell me you wouldn't do the same either. They really need to let this stuff go its getting old.

maher_tyler
07-30-2009, 04:16 PM
Canseco says MLB facing bigger issue


Jose Canseco, whose 2005 book arguably started the cascade of revelations and an investigation into the use of performance-enhancing drugs in baseball, barely raised an eyebrow when he was told David Ortiz and Manny Ramirez are reportedly on the list of 104 players who tested positive in 2003.

"When you tell me something I didn't already know, I'll be surprised,'' Canseco told ESPN. "And I'll tell you this, Major League Baseball is going to have a big, big problem on their hands when they find out they have a Hall of Famer who's used."

When asked to name who that Hall of Fame player is, Canseco refused to divulge who he believes it is.



[MLB] created this mess because they couldn't control the list of 104 ... This list was supposed to be confidential. We're seeing that, like Watergate, the cover-up always blows up in your face.


-- Jose Canseco

"It's not about naming names,'' he said. "I've never had anything against the players. It's always been against Major League Baseball. I know who's on that list, but like I said, it's not about attacking the players. It's about the machine that allowed this to happen. What I speak out of my mouth is the truth. It burns like fire. Just remember, I have never lied about this subject."

In Canseco's book, "Juiced: Wild Times, Rampant 'roids and Smash Hits and How Baseball Got Big," he detailed what he called the game's rampant use of performance-enhancing drugs. He was initially vilified, but most of his allegations subsequently have proven to be true.


At the time, in 2005, Canseco said he believed 80 percent of big league players were using some substance to enhance their statistics. He since has amended that number.

"If you were in the game in the last 20 years, there's a 95 percent chance you were knowingly using something,'' Canseco said. "I said 80 percent back then because that was the number of players that I knew were on. But that number was greater.''

Canseco, whose career spanned 17 seasons and included 462 home runs, said Major League Baseball could be staring at a far greater problem than just the list of 104 players potentially being released.

"If the players turn on Major League Baseball, it's going to get far worse and ugly,'' he said. "They created this mess because they couldn't control the list of 104. Baseball could be looking at a major class-action lawsuit if the players decide to band together. This list was supposed to be confidential. We're seeing that, like Watergate, the cover-up always blows up in your face. It may take five, 10, 15 years, but the forensic files always seem to surface. Again, tell me if I've ever lied when it comes to this?"

ESPN legal analyst Lester Munson said Canseco's claim of a class action lawsuit is probably baseless on several fronts.

"One reason is that the government is involved,'' Munson said. "The FBI and the IRS came into those labs and took those samples and the scorecards to tell who was who on the list. If the players sued the players union and Major League Baseball, those two would say it wasn't them, it was the government.


"Could they get a lawyer to file a case? Without a doubt. But I don't see it as a really strong case. It's an interesting idea, but it would probably be dismissed quickly."

lex
07-30-2009, 04:21 PM
Canseco says MLB facing bigger issue


Jose Canseco, whose 2005 book arguably started the cascade of revelations and an investigation into the use of performance-enhancing drugs in baseball, barely raised an eyebrow when he was told David Ortiz and Manny Ramirez are reportedly on the list of 104 players who tested positive in 2003.

"When you tell me something I didn't already know, I'll be surprised,'' Canseco told ESPN. "And I'll tell you this, Major League Baseball is going to have a big, big problem on their hands when they find out they have a Hall of Famer who's used."

When asked to name who that Hall of Fame player is, Canseco refused to divulge who he believes it is.



[MLB] created this mess because they couldn't control the list of 104 ... This list was supposed to be confidential. We're seeing that, like Watergate, the cover-up always blows up in your face.


-- Jose Canseco

"It's not about naming names,'' he said. "I've never had anything against the players. It's always been against Major League Baseball. I know who's on that list, but like I said, it's not about attacking the players. It's about the machine that allowed this to happen. What I speak out of my mouth is the truth. It burns like fire. Just remember, I have never lied about this subject."

In Canseco's book, "Juiced: Wild Times, Rampant 'roids and Smash Hits and How Baseball Got Big," he detailed what he called the game's rampant use of performance-enhancing drugs. He was initially vilified, but most of his allegations subsequently have proven to be true.


At the time, in 2005, Canseco said he believed 80 percent of big league players were using some substance to enhance their statistics. He since has amended that number.

"If you were in the game in the last 20 years, there's a 95 percent chance you were knowingly using something,'' Canseco said. "I said 80 percent back then because that was the number of players that I knew were on. But that number was greater.''

Canseco, whose career spanned 17 seasons and included 462 home runs, said Major League Baseball could be staring at a far greater problem than just the list of 104 players potentially being released.

"If the players turn on Major League Baseball, it's going to get far worse and ugly,'' he said. "They created this mess because they couldn't control the list of 104. Baseball could be looking at a major class-action lawsuit if the players decide to band together. This list was supposed to be confidential. We're seeing that, like Watergate, the cover-up always blows up in your face. It may take five, 10, 15 years, but the forensic files always seem to surface. Again, tell me if I've ever lied when it comes to this?"

ESPN legal analyst Lester Munson said Canseco's claim of a class action lawsuit is probably baseless on several fronts.

"One reason is that the government is involved,'' Munson said. "The FBI and the IRS came into those labs and took those samples and the scorecards to tell who was who on the list. If the players sued the players union and Major League Baseball, those two would say it wasn't them, it was the government.


"Could they get a lawyer to file a case? Without a doubt. But I don't see it as a really strong case. It's an interesting idea, but it would probably be dismissed quickly."

I wonder if its Reggie Jackson or maybe Ricky Henderson.

maher_tyler
07-30-2009, 05:31 PM
I wonder if its Reggie Jackson or maybe Ricky Henderson.

I'm thinking someone who got tested and was inducted into the Hall recently?!

Rock Chalk
07-30-2009, 05:32 PM
Ken Griffey is the only player I do not suspect to ahve used Roids in the last 15 years.

Maybe Lance Berkman too.

I wouldnt be surprised if either did though.

I just dont trust the sport.

lex
07-30-2009, 05:41 PM
I'm thinking someone who got tested and was inducted into the Hall recently?!

I dont know why it couldnt be Reggie Jackson. He was a power hitter that played with Canseco at the tail end of his career and might have used to prolong his career or play at a level that he felt ok with.

I could also see Ricky Henderson.

Its kind of hard to tell though with all the teams Canseco played for.

SureShot
07-30-2009, 06:33 PM
I dont know why it couldnt be Reggie Jackson. He was a power hitter that played with Canseco at the tail end of his career and might have used to prolong his career or play at a level that he felt ok with.

I could also see Ricky Henderson.

Its kind of hard to tell though with all the teams Canseco played for.

Didn't Reggie finish with the Angles?

BroncoLifer
07-30-2009, 06:47 PM
It was not ilegal at the time in the DR either, just as it wasn't in the majors. However it was frowned upon just like in the US.


Saying that they weren't illegal in MLB before 2005 doesn't really tell the whole story. The non-medical use or possession of steroids has been illegal in the US since 1990. The law classifies them the same as meth and opium.

It's true that MLB and the union didn't agree upon the PED policy until 2005, but it's also true that MLB doesn't have policies against kidnapping or possession of child pr0n. If a player is guilty of committing either of those crimes, is it OK in baseball's eyes because they don't have an official policy?

BroncoLifer
07-30-2009, 06:53 PM
How do you know they weren't taking anything?? It wasn't illeagal in baseball to do it until 04-05. It wasn't against the rules to take that stuff then so who cares..i would have done it to. You can't tell me you wouldn't do the same either. They really need to let this stuff go its getting old.

Is that you, Mr. Selig?

maher_tyler
07-30-2009, 06:54 PM
Saying that they weren't illegal in MLB before 2005 doesn't really tell the whole story. The non-medical use or possession of steroids has been illegal in the US since 1990. The law classifies them the same as meth and opium.

It's true that MLB and the union didn't agree upon the PED policy until 2005, but it's also true that MLB doesn't have policies against kidnapping or possession of child pr0n. If a player is guilty of committing either of those crimes, is it OK in baseball's eyes because they don't have an official policy?

No but they shouldn't have an * by their name. It'd be like if a guy smoked pot or did any other illeagal drug he should have an * by his name then!! There would be a lot of asteriks in the record books!!

BroncoMan4ever
07-30-2009, 07:11 PM
Just makes Griffey look that much better!! To wonder what could have happened had he stayed healthy.

not only that, but had he done what everyone else had, his numbers would be insane.

in his prime he was better than any player that has been implicated in using performance enhancers ever could have hoped to be.

BroncoMan4ever
07-30-2009, 07:14 PM
It was not ilegal at the time in the DR either, just as it wasn't in the majors. However it was frowned upon just like in the US.

Something that's bothering me is that all the guys "new" guys that are being routed out on the steroids scandals are mostly Dominicans.

I think they should just make all the names public from that damn list. It's a shame for baseball that all it's best players are comming out to be all positive one time or another.

is anyone really surprised that any of these guys are being outed as users?

i am just hoping Pujols is truthful in his claims that he has never used roids and is doing it like Griffey. Pujols is my favorite player in the league right now, and i hope he is clean

lex
07-30-2009, 09:35 PM
Didn't Reggie finish with the Angles?

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/j/jacksre01.shtml

No, he was with the As in 87. I actually thought he spent a couple of more years there but I remembered him being there when McGwire and Canseco were young.

Broncoman13
07-30-2009, 10:20 PM
I wonder if its Reggie Jackson or maybe Ricky Henderson.

Ricky Henderson came to mind and Canseco played with him obviously... I just hope it's not one of my heroes like a Cal Ripken Jr. or Tony Gwynn.

Taco John
07-30-2009, 10:38 PM
It's unbelievable to me that the government inserted themselves in this issue.

SouthStndJunkie
07-30-2009, 11:04 PM
It's unbelievable to me that the government inserted themselves in this issue.

Yep....and if I were the players, I would be livid that this list of names is being leaked.

This information was never supposed to be released.

Players were tested in 2003 as part of Major League Baseball's survey to determine if it was necessary to impose mandatory random drug testing in 2004. There were no penalties for a positive test in 2003.

As part of the drug agreement between the union and MLB, the results of the testing of 1,198 players also were meant to be anonymous. Penalties began in 2004 and suspensions for a first positive test started in 2005.

Killericon
07-30-2009, 11:20 PM
I always thought Ortiz's strong anti steroid stance was suspect.

lex
07-31-2009, 06:10 AM
It's unbelievable to me that the government inserted themselves in this issue.

What also makes it ironic is how Bush mentioned this issue in his State of the Union Address and when he owned a baseball team, it was one of the more rampant using teams. They had Palmeiro, Canseco, and Rodriguez.

521 1N5
07-31-2009, 06:28 AM
Legalize it!

BroncoLifer
07-31-2009, 07:25 AM
Yep....and if I were the players, I would be livid that this list of names is being leaked.

This information was never supposed to be released.

Players were tested in 2003 as part of Major League Baseball's survey to determine if it was necessary to impose mandatory random drug testing in 2004. There were no penalties for a positive test in 2003.

As part of the drug agreement between the union and MLB, the results of the testing of 1,198 players also were meant to be anonymous. Penalties began in 2004 and suspensions for a first positive test started in 2005.

The world's smallest violin is playing....

Again, steroids have been illegal in the US since 1990. In the eyes of the law (the Justice Dept.) users and their suppliers have committed criminal acts. In the eyes of the Justice Dept, so what if some non-law enforcement agency told the criminals that their test results would be kept confidential?

As a fan - I feel much the same way. If it took a lie or a leak to expose the cheaters, so be it.

lex
07-31-2009, 07:29 AM
The world's smallest violin is playing....

Again, steroids have been illegal in the US since 1990. In the eyes of the law (the Justice Dept.) users and their suppliers have committed criminal acts. In the eyes of the Justice Dept, so what if some non-law enforcement agency told the criminals that their test results would be kept confidential?

As a fan - I feel much the same way. If it took a lie or a leak to expose the cheaters, so be it.

Leaks represent a bigger problem than one guy doing steroids. Im not just talking about the list either. There was also leaked grand jury testimony from the BALCO proceedings.

TheDave
07-31-2009, 07:29 AM
The world's smallest violin is playing....

Again, steroids have been illegal in the US since 1990. In the eyes of the law (the Justice Dept.) users and their suppliers have committed criminal acts. In the eyes of the Justice Dept, so what if some non-law enforcement agency told the criminals that their test results would be kept confidential?

As a fan - I feel much the same way. If it took a lie or a leak to expose the cheaters, so be it.

I have a feeling a lot of these were legit perscriptions from Dr's... With the money and contacts these guys had I fail to see why they would all default to black market drugs.

Evenrude
07-31-2009, 08:19 AM
I was shocked to see Ortiz on the list.

I remember his statement about how he would be clear unless they started testing for red beans and rice..... and like a fool I believed it.

I'll have trouble ever cheering for the guy again, and he was one of my favs.

SouthStndJunkie
07-31-2009, 08:38 AM
The world's smallest violin is playing....

Again, steroids have been illegal in the US since 1990. In the eyes of the law (the Justice Dept.) users and their suppliers have committed criminal acts. In the eyes of the Justice Dept, so what if some non-law enforcement agency told the criminals that their test results would be kept confidential?

As a fan - I feel much the same way. If it took a lie or a leak to expose the cheaters, so be it.

It is not as straightforward as you think.

Not all these guys on the list were taking illegal steroids.

Supposedly not taking the test (voluntary and private test) would automatically put your name on this list (which was supposed to be private and destroyed).

I am all for the guilty being punished, but these names being leaked like this is a travesty of privacy and trust.

Paladin
07-31-2009, 08:55 AM
It's unbelievable to me that the government inserted themselves in this issue.

Well, unfettered libertarians would feel that way. But, why should Baseball be exempt from the anti-trust laws? If it is an interstate commercial activity, why should they be exempt from other interestate commerce laws? Would you guarantee that all of the business practices of Baseball would be honest?

Perhaps Vegas, that bastion of libertarian excesses, insisted on honesty in the product (game) to keep it from being like "Pro Rassling". Maybe there are some folks who want to keep the shysters and crooks out of the game, and since it operates across State lines, no State can do it by themselves - although I would think California probably could put a dent in nefarious hoodwinks.

It would be nice to think that if "Government" would just stay out of these sorts of issues, and leave people alone, all corporate business would be totaly honest. And all products that involve all of the country would be fairly priced and totally safe, and.....

Well, h3ll, you figure it out.....

Paladin
07-31-2009, 08:59 AM
It is not as straightforward as you think.

Not all these guys on the list were taking illegal steroids.

Supposedly not taking the test (voluntary and private test) would automatically put your name on this list (which was supposed to be private and destroyed).

I am all for the guilty being punished, but these names being leaked like this is a travesty of privacy and trust.

So, they should be sent to Chicago, right?

Screw 'em. Thye knew exactly what they were doing. Even High School kids knew about HGH and knew of players who died from cancer because of it. Alzado comes to mind.

TheDave
07-31-2009, 09:00 AM
So, they should be sent to Chicago, right?

Screw 'em. Thye knew exactly what they were doing. Even High School kids knew about HGH and knew of players who died from cancer because of it. Alzado comes to mind.

Lyle Alzdo's cancer had nothing to do with HGH...

Beantown Bronco
07-31-2009, 11:25 AM
One of my buddies (not a Sox fan, if that matters to anyone) summed it all up pretty well in an email earlier today:

My take is that the whole 2003 list is ridiculous on about 10 levels. First, who were the complete idiots in charge of the testing? If it was supposed to be anonymous, then why were the names and the test results EVER matched up? As anyone who has ever been involved in the discovery process (everyone on this list?) would know, "we planned to destroy the list" gets you pretty much nowhere. Important data like this never goes away, even if the feds hadn't subpoenaed it. Since the league and union didn't even tell people who tested positive, what possible purpose did it serve to not just collect 600 samples and give them random #'s for data purposes, and who cares whose they were? Some incompetent people should be fired over this.

Second, the people, apparently lawyers, who are leaking the names selectively should be beaten in the street. It is really an egregious violation of trust, duty, etc. to fire these shots from hiding that just destroy people, especially considering that there is absolutely nothing they can do to defend themselves (A-Rod included, though at least he came clean). Some lawyers should get disbarred for this.

Finally, I always figured Papi had used something most likely, like most everybody else bigger than Pedroia. HOWEVER, then bust them for actually using. This 2003 list is worthless. No one who tested positive was then re-tested, as always happens in an actual testing regime, b/c there actually is such a thing as a false positive. Second, what Arroyo says actually rings pretty true to me b/c these supplements were/are loaded with all kinds of crap that could trigger positives and were sold over-the-counter. Like testing positive for heroin b/c you had a poppy (Papi?)-seed muffin.

Anyway I am interested in exactly none of the 2003 test list. Take Papi up on the offer and test everybody, all the time, and be real about it in the present. Constantly going back to 2003 is both unfair and totally unproductive for baseball.