PDA

View Full Version : OT : Sorry, Bears Fans, cutler Isnít the Answer


Pages : [1] 2

Bronco Rob
07-13-2009, 01:23 PM
The Football Scientist, KC Joyner, is a Fifth Down contributor. Lab results from “Scientific Football 2009,” to be published in August, are available for those who order the book now.

Every Thursday at 4 p.m., I do a chat on ESPN.com’s SportsNation Web site. The chat format allows people to post any kind of question they want, so the topics tend to jump around a lot.

That wasn’t the case this past Thursday, or at least it wasn’t after Alex from Chicago asked how well I thought Jay Cutler would do with the Bears this year. I told him: “I’ve said it many times and I’ll say it again — Cutler will make Bears fans remember Rex Grossman. He’ll make just as many crazy passes but won’t suffer the Grossman fate because Chicago’s fan base is so in love with him that they will forgive the nutty throws he makes in ways that they never forgave Grossman.” Much of the rest of the chat was dominated by Bears fans wanting to give me a piece of their minds.

It didn’t stop there. Brad Biggs of the Inside The Bears blog on The Chicago Sun-Times posted my comments there, and many of his readers also took me to task (including one who said “I unemotionally state KC Joyner is an idiot”). That trend continued when Aaron Wilson of ProFootballTalk.com posted a comment about Brad’s story there on Saturday (and multiple Chicago followers threw both Brad and me under the bus).

Now I understand that fan scrutiny comes with the territory, so I don’t mind that, but what I don’t understand is why those fans are treating Cutler differently than they did either Grossman or Kyle Orton.

Grossman was on fire during the first part of Chicago’s Super Bowl season, and yet as soon as he had the bad game against Miami, it seemed the entire city turned on him. It didn’t go that much differently for Orton. He had a tremendous start to the 2008 season, but when he struggled down the stretch, the populace seemed to say goodbye and good riddance without much of a second thought.

I also don’t understand why there seems to be such excitement about Cutler. Yes, he threw for over 4,500 yards last year, but that was in large part because he put the ball up a whopping 616 times. His 9.8 vertical YPA was lower than that of 19 other QBs last season, and his 4.6% bad decision rate (a bad decision being a mistake by the QB that leads to a turnover or a near turnover) was easily the worst of any QB. He was also the offensive leader for a team that blew a three-game division lead with three games to go.

Another way to look at this is that Cutler’s overall record is 17-20 versus Orton’s overall record of 21-12 and Grossman’s 19-12. I know there are those who will defend this by saying that Cutler worked with a horrible defense last year, but when he took over the Broncos in 2006, they were less than a full season removed from hosting the AFC championship game.

The only reason I can come up with as to why Bears fans are reacting like this is that the quarterback position has been such a headache for them over the years that they will do just about anything to make it go away. If that means ignoring Cutler’s shortcomings so that at least one off-season goes by without having to wonder if their quarterback’s play will measure up, they’ll do it just for the temporary peace of mind. I do admire that kind of team passion and loyalty, but I’d admire it a bit more if it were done by hoping that Cutler could improve his game rather than by backing his mixed bag of performance history.

http://fifthdown.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/07/13/sorry-bears-fans-cutler-isnt-the-answer/



:~ohyah!:

Rabb
07-13-2009, 01:26 PM
this was already posted I thought, and who gives a ****...he is not a Bronco anymore

I am seriously getting sick of this crap

TonyR
07-13-2009, 01:28 PM
this was already posted I thought...

Correct, earlier today in the Cutler = Grossman? thread. But we'll give him a pass since it's negative Cutler material...

broncofan2438
07-13-2009, 01:28 PM
this was already posted I thought, and who gives a ****...he is not a Bronco anymore

I am seriously getting sick of this crap

I agree, but its good to read some negative on Cudler

bronco_boi_5280
07-13-2009, 01:30 PM
Why did you classify this as "OT?"

Rabb
07-13-2009, 01:32 PM
Why did you classify this as "OT?"

Overly Talked about maybe lol

I know it is bad but all the Cutler division is making it hard to read any thread, let alone new ones with the same **** in them

**** my life I want football here, I would rather talk about us losing a game than this right now

bpc
07-13-2009, 01:38 PM
Some of you are like jilted ex-lovers. Just let Cutler be. Hey, if he ****s the pot, good for you guys.

Fact is he probably won't and we'll have to hear these excuses about how the guy sucks when he doesn't.

KC Joyner is a dumbass. His statistics are always horribly weighted and predictable. There are so many factors that go into the game of football and the numbers almost never tell the true story. Look at John Elway's first 10 years in the NFL as far as his stats go. He only got over 3500 yds twice, never finished with higher than 57% completion percentage, and had more INT's than TD's. What do you think people would be saying about his career in today's media in retrospect?

Cutler has great stats and has had to carry this team. While he wasn't perfect, he has more than thrived given the talent he's had to work with.

Popps
07-13-2009, 01:44 PM
Cutler has great stats .

Not really. They're decent. 86 QB rating, I believe. Not sure I'd call that "great." Far too many INTs last year for a 3 year "blue chip" QB.


had to carry this team. .

"Carry?" To a 7-9 record? (8-8 if you count the game he fumbled away that the refs gave back.)

Again, not so sure I'd say he "carried" anything.


he has more than thrived given the talent he's had to work with.

A top-notch line, one of the best receiving corps in the game, a top 12 running game and one of the best offensive play-callers in the NFL?

Sorry, I'm missing the "what he had to work with" aspect of that scenario?

SonOfLe-loLang
07-13-2009, 01:44 PM
Some of you are like jilted ex-lovers. Just let Cutler be. Hey, if he ****s the pot, good for you guys.

Fact is he probably won't and we'll have to hear these excuses about how the guy sucks when he doesn't.

KC Joyner is a dumbass. His statistics are always horribly weighted and predictable. There are so many factors that go into the game of football and the numbers almost never tell the true story. Look at John Elway's first 10 years in the NFL as far as his stats go. He only got over 3500 yds twice, never finished with higher than 57% completion percentage, and had more INT's than TD's. What do you think people would be saying about his career in today's media in retrospect?

Cutler has great stats and has had to carry this team. While he wasn't perfect, he has more than thrived given the talent he's had to work with.


I'm a huge skeptic of Joyner's work in general (for the reasons you mention) BUT the stats he is citing in regards to Jay are valid. Jay does tend to force balls and lock on receivers.

Popps
07-13-2009, 01:46 PM
Some of you are like jilted ex-lovers. .

Chris, what better describes "jilted?"

A. Pining for a QB who quit on you, even though he's not coming back.

B. Saying **** 'em, we'll move on without him.


There are pretty much two camps, here. Which would you say describes "jilted" more accurately?

bpc
07-13-2009, 01:52 PM
Not really. They're decent. 86 QB rating, I believe. Not sure I'd call that "great." Far too many INTs last year for a 3 year "blue chip" QB.



"Carry?" To a 7-9 record? (8-8 if you count the game he fumbled away that the refs gave back.)

Again, not so sure I'd say he "carried" anything.



A top-notch line, one of the best receiving corps in the game, a top 12 running game and one of the best offensive play-callers in the NFL?

Sorry, I'm missing the "what he had to work with" aspect of that scenario?

I know, you hate Jay. That's all you have to say. Everybody knows that. Nobody is arguing with you on this thread, i'm just paying the guy respect because he's earned mine. He's played his ass off over the previous 2 and half years starting. He's put together a great career so far and he's the main reason that our teams haven't been considerably worse in 07', and 08'. The wins would come if he had a better overall team around him. He hasn't had the luxury of being eased into his position like Ben Rothlisberger among others or by having a great supporting cast. He's made the most of that. Maybe that didn't equate enough wins for you. So be it. He balled out and held the weight of this city up when most other QB's would have crumbled under it. Moving forward he's only going to get better from where he's at.

I am confident Jay is going to have a very good career and he'll be a pro bowl/winning QB for the Bears. Maybe some don't want to agree to that. It's fine. It will play out on the field and then most will have to resort to some of reason to try and dog him.

Go Broncos.

TheReverend
07-13-2009, 01:55 PM
Chris, what better describes "jilted?"

A. Pining for a QB who quit on you, even though he's not coming back.

B. Saying **** 'em, we'll move on without him.


There are pretty much two camps, here. Which would you say describes "jilted" more accurately?

You left out option C.

I got divorced, so I know what jilted women act like.

They make crazy revisionist history **** up, lie constantly and obsessively attack anyone that still likes you (or Cutler in this instance).

So yes, you're the jilted lover.

24champ
07-13-2009, 01:56 PM
There are pretty much two camps, here. Which would you say describes "jilted" more accurately?


The guy with 20 plus posts in one Cutler thread.


You.:giggle:

bpc
07-13-2009, 01:56 PM
Chris, what better describes "jilted?"

A. Pining for a QB who quit on you, even though he's not coming back.

B. Saying **** 'em, we'll move on without him.


There are pretty much two camps, here. Which would you say describes "jilted" more accurately?

Go Broncos.

A. I can pull for whoever I damn well please. Jay didn't quit on this team. He and McDaniels couldn't work together. Both made errors and Jay got his wish to be out of a situation which he deemed unhealthy. Let me emphasis, TWO PARTIES were at fault here.

B. Go Broncos. I don't care if people choose to hate Jay from here on out. To pull out every little article to bash him is stupid in my opinion. It will get worse when he wins when he leaves as well. It doesn't work for us and him. It sucks. Time to move on though. Good luck Cutler, and go Broncos.

Popps
07-13-2009, 02:00 PM
They make crazy revisionist history **** up, lie constantly and obsessively attack anyone that still likes you (or Cutler in this instance).


Look, I think he's a douche-bag. I think he showed himself for what he is. (After giving many hints before this.) No revision needed. That's all pretty straight forward.

The flipside to your divorce equation is LOSING the pain in the ass, crazy wife. (I'd imagine.)

To me, this team had a divorce and is better for it. I'm stoked for the future.
Nothing jilted about that. Will I be wrong? Maybe, but I'm still excited for the future of this team.

bpc
07-13-2009, 02:00 PM
I'm a huge skeptic of Joyner's work in general (for the reasons you mention) BUT the stats he is citing in regards to Jay are valid. Jay does tend to force balls and lock on receivers.

... i'm not arguing those attributes. But when your talents are greater, you can make those throws. In large part, he's had a great deal of success throwing the way that he does even though maybe you, or I, or that dumbass KC Joyner doesn't like it.

Jay has a longer leash because of his ability. He can make throws few guys in the NFL can. Ultimately he'll have to find a way to disguise certain things if he's going to be great. The premise of the article is that Joyner doesn't think that much of Jay and Bears fans will be disappointed when that couldn't be further from the truth. He's going to do very well in Chicago, they're going to win and once again Joyner will look like a jackass.

bpc
07-13-2009, 02:05 PM
Look, I think he's a douche-bag. I think he showed himself for what he is. (After giving many hints before this.) No revision needed. That's all pretty straight forward.

The flipside to your divorce equation is LOSING the pain in the ass, crazy wife. (I'd imagine.)

To me, this team had a divorce and is better for it. I'm stoked for the future.
Nothing jilted about that. Will I be wrong? Maybe, but I'm still excited for the future of this team.

... but you and those in your camp will continue to bash him even when it's unprovoked...

" OH LOOK, JAY IS A JACKASS, HE FIRED HIS REAL ESTATE AGENT BACK IN DENVER! LOOK LOOK!"

These are the same type of guys that wish for their ex's to get fat and ugly after they just broke up with them, then stalk them on public profiles privately hoping for bad things to happen with them. DESPERATE.

I hope Denver wins next season and I can't wait for the unabashed Cutler slander that's going to take place when Chicago is successful and Jay is at the helm.

ColoradoDarin
07-13-2009, 02:06 PM
Look at John Elway's first 10 years in the NFL as far as his stats go. He only got over 3500 yds twice, never finished with higher than 57% completion percentage, and had more INT's than TD's. What do you think people would be saying about his career in today's media in retrospect?


They'd probably marvel about how he wins, how he took crappy teams to 3 Superbowls, how he despite being held back for 3 quarters in the Reeves Run, Run, Pass, Punt style would win games pretty much all his own. John Elway would have killed to have an offense like this his first 10 years.

Here's the whole key to why I personally am indifferent to Jay Cutler becoming a Bear (I was excited to see what McD could do with him) - I could care less what anyone's stats are, WIN. Period. The reason most people care about stats is fantasy football.

DivineBronco
07-13-2009, 02:07 PM
weather one wishes jay well in the future or not (I for one hope a tiger eats his face off) I think any talk about him is vital for the next year when one considers our 1st round draft pick is directly tied to how he plays

TheReverend
07-13-2009, 02:09 PM
Look, I think he's a douche-bag. I think he showed himself for what he is. (After giving many hints before this.) No revision needed. That's all pretty straight forward.

The flipside to your divorce equation is LOSING the pain in the ass, crazy wife. (I'd imagine.)

To me, this team had a divorce and is better for it. I'm stoked for the future.
Nothing jilted about that. Will I be wrong? Maybe, but I'm still excited for the future of this team.

To be honest, I do see you as the jilted lover. The one telling herself everything's gonna be alright and going out to sleep as many new quarterbacks as possible to try and forget.

:wiggle:

Kaylore
07-13-2009, 02:14 PM
Some of you are like jilted ex-lovers. Just let Cutler be. .
Yeah, I'm sure KC Joyner is really hurt about Cutler leaving the Broncos.

The only people who are acting like jilted lovers are people like you who swoop in and defend a guy not on our team, spew hatred at the coach for creating your "divorce" and then proclaim the season a failure before a down has been played.

LEAVE CUTLER ALONEE!!!!!

http://cm1.theinsider.com/media/0/47/52/chris-crocker-cries_389x324.0.0.0x0.389x324.jpeg

bpc
07-13-2009, 02:19 PM
They'd probably marvel about how he wins, how he took crappy teams to 3 Superbowls, how he despite being held back for 3 quarters in the Reeves Run, Run, Pass, Punt style would win games pretty much all his own. John Elway would have killed to have an offense like this his first 10 years.

Here's the whole key to why I personally am indifferent to Jay Cutler becoming a Bear (I was excited to see what McD could do with him) - I could care less what anyone's stats are, WIN. Period. The reason most people care about stats is fantasy football.

My point is a guy like KC Joyner is an idiot and would tear the early John Elway apart for making bad throws, relying on his arm too much, looking to run first, etc, etc. So to use this information against Jay because Joyner doesn't like him is a stupid joke.

Bronco fans know why Elway was great. An idiot who calls himself a scientific football guy would not understand and clearly doesn't with his take on Jay. He's a numbers guy. Football is a team sport and is determined by clearly more than just numbers.

Killericon
07-13-2009, 02:23 PM
Yeah, I'm sure KC Joyner is really hurt about Cutler leaving the Broncos.

The only people who are acting like jilted lovers are people like you who swoop in and defend a guy not on our team, spew hatred at the coach for creating your "divorce" and then proclaim the season a failure before a down has been played.

LEAVE CUTLER ALONEE!!!!!

http://cm1.theinsider.com/media/0/47/52/chris-crocker-cries_389x324.0.0.0x0.389x324.jpeg

He has a point though. People's views about Cutler's abilities as a player around here have completely changed since he was traded, something that doesn't affect his skill. This is plain to see, and jilted ex-lover syndrome is rampant around here.

Rabb
07-13-2009, 02:24 PM
weather one wishes jay well in the future or not (I for one hope a tiger eats his face off) I think any talk about him is vital for the next year when one considers our 1st round draft pick is directly tied to how he plays

while I agree with you about said Tiger eating the aforementioned face off

I cannot agree with this

I don't want to talk about a player that left us for greener pastures, he is a Bear and I like the Broncos

I don't care if he takes them to the super bowl, it has nothing to do with the team dynamic here right now

bpc
07-13-2009, 02:26 PM
Yeah, I'm sure KC Joyner is really hurt about Cutler leaving the Broncos.

The only people who are acting like jilted lovers are people like you who swoop in and defend a guy not on our team, spew hatred at the coach for creating your "divorce" and then proclaim the season a failure before a down has been played.

LEAVE CUTLER ALONEE!!!!!

http://cm1.theinsider.com/media/0/47/52/chris-crocker-cries_389x324.0.0.0x0.389x324.jpeg

This season could be failure. I hope it's not. I hope i'm wrong. There's a definite argument you could make for the case though. In the end, I want to win. While I don't agree with the way McDaniels came in, i'm not about to doubt that he doesn't know a lick of football or how to win. I'm a little concerned about lack of experience as a head coach but his offenses have proven themselves over the last couple years. I appreciate his fire and intensity. There are some principalities to football which he said he is intent on bringing in which I definitely agree with.

As for you, you have an extremely limited amount of knowledge and what you do have in that regard isn't able to consider all spectrums of this argument because of your bias'ness which now seems to be proving how Cutler sucks and Mike Shanahan was garbage. It would take an idiot to state that assessment and then try to back it up for days on end.

Why don't you educate the crowd once again why Jarvis Moss is going to be a pro bowl 4-3 DE. Thanks.

ColoradoDarin
07-13-2009, 02:29 PM
He has a point though. People's views about Cutler's abilities as a player around here have completely changed since he was traded, something that doesn't affect his skill. This is plain to see, and jilted ex-lover syndrome is rampant around here.

Ya know, I don't think people's views about Cutler have changed that much. Cutler was viewed as a guy with a rocket arm and a ton of potential. I think most people would agree on that point still. The only thing that has changed is that there are a lot of Bronco fans that don't want to see him reach his potential anymore (or don't care if her does or not past this season where we hold the Bears' top pick).

Cito Pelon
07-13-2009, 02:33 PM
Some of you are like jilted ex-lovers. Just let Cutler be. Hey, if he ****s the pot, good for you guys.

Fact is he probably won't and we'll have to hear these excuses about how the guy sucks when he doesn't.

KC Joyner is a dumbass. His statistics are always horribly weighted and predictable. There are so many factors that go into the game of football and the numbers almost never tell the true story. Look at John Elway's first 10 years in the NFL as far as his stats go. He only got over 3500 yds twice, never finished with higher than 57% completion percentage, and had more INT's than TD's. What do you think people would be saying about his career in today's media in retrospect?

Cutler has great stats and has had to carry this team. While he wasn't perfect, he has more than thrived given the talent he's had to work with.

Cutler has average stats, he was nothing spectacular at all, you and others just think he was. We'll see how it pans out, I guess.

Kaylore
07-13-2009, 02:34 PM
This season could be failure. I hope it's not. I hope i'm wrong. There's a definite argument you could make for the case though. In the end, I want to win.

As for you, you have an extremely limited amount of knowledge and what you do have in that regard isn't able to consider all spectrums of this argument because of your bias'ness which now seems to be proving how Cutler sucks and Mike Shanahan was garbage. It would take an idiot to state that assessment and then try to back it up for days on end.

Why don't you educate the crowd once again why Jarvis Moss is going to be a pro bowl 4-3 DE. Thanks.

See this just proves you're the one being emotional here. I admit I was wrong about Jarvis Moss, and I've been wrong about many other players.

And I've never said "Jay Cutler sucks" or argued that in any way. I said he has a drinking problem and is a whiner and is arrogant. Those are all true. I also have never argued Orton is better or more talented or will be more prolific. Again your emotions are making you "re-imagining" the facts.

And again, this idea that I think "Mike Shanahan is garbage" is BS. I challenge you to find one post of mine where I make this case or even argue something like it.

You can't.

All you have is insults and ranting because YOU are the one who is acting emotional about this and won't move on and trying to make it personal.

colonelbeef
07-13-2009, 02:36 PM
Lets see what living in a nightmare alternate reality is like where football decisions were left up to mediocre intellects such as Popps telluride, or tsiguy96:

Peyton Manning is out in Indy before he gets to win a Super Bowl and MVP, after 4 seasons he only has a 84.9 rating and is 32-32 as a starter with no playoff wins and 111/81 Td/Int ratio. Plus he threw his Offensive line under the bus multiple times, a no-no in Popps's book. Except in the case of Peyton Manning, who Popps would love to have on the Broncos. He's a leader now afterall. tsiguy96 trades his whiney ass for Rodney Peete.


Eli Manning is out in NY without having had a chance to win a Super Bowl MVP. 54-44 TD/INT, 69.4 Rating, 21 Fumbles, 20-19 as a starter after 3 years in the league- all this from a kid who was called a crybaby after he didn't want to play for San Diego and was the top pick in the draft? Popps would be busy charring his jersey, up until he grew up and made perhaps the greatest single play in Super Bowl history en route to the 2nd biggest upset in Super Bowl history. Popps will sing his praises now of course, but a few years ago, he is the next Ryan Leaf and Popps trades him for Jon Kitna.


Steve Young- 21/21 TD/Int ratio, 5-17 record as a starter, 81.0 rating, After year 2 of his total letdown of a career and at the ripe old mature age of 25, GM ApaOps trades him to the 49ers for a pile of bull****. Oh wait, that actually happened, and it was one of the worst trades in history.



I could go on outlining the idiocy behind the thought process- let me make this clear as day for those of you who clearly do not understand football or what constiutes good QB play, let alone amazing play from a 23-25 year old growing in the shadow of an all time great in Denver.

You don't trade QB's with the kind of talent and acumen that Jay Cutler has displayed. You especially don't trade them after their first pro bowl year, at the age of 25, citing maturity issues. John Elway was seen as a whining p***Y into his early 30s. How did that turn out?

In short, no matter what the kid had to say, you simply do not let go of those kinds of talents, ever. It never turns out well for the team that traded him away. This transaction will haunt the Broncos for a long time to come. Popps, tsiguy96, kaylore etc can rationalize all they want. It was a horrible decision, one that can only be blamed on questionable (at best) management for allowing themselves to be put into the position in the first place.

The biggest transgression out of McDaniels' many mistakes was the simple fact that he allowed himself to get played by Cutler like a fiddle to the point where he actually got to his favorite childhood team.

Again, feel free to rationalize. The Broncos, for the first time in a very long time, got owned.

Game, set, match, pwned.

broncofan7
07-13-2009, 02:39 PM
Not really. They're decent. 86 QB rating, I believe. Not sure I'd call that "great." Far too many INTs last year for a 3 year "blue chip" QB.



"Carry?" To a 7-9 record? (8-8 if you count the game he fumbled away that the refs gave back.)

Again, not so sure I'd say he "carried" anything.



A top-notch line, one of the best receiving corps in the game, a top 12 running game and one of the best offensive play-callers in the NFL?

Sorry, I'm missing the "what he had to work with" aspect of that scenario?

You irrational buffoon. See Peyton Manning circa 2001--colts gave up 30 points/game ----Manning and the Colts went 6-10 and what were Manning's stats you ask????

4100 yards, 26 TDs and 23 ints--

Conclusion--the ONLY time that Peyton Manning had to play with a defense as rotten as ours was the last 2 years--he went 6-10 and threw 23--TWENTY THREE INTERCEPTIONS and went 6-10. This myth that you continue to perpetuate that Cutler was not a great talent is so ridiculous that you should ban yourself for this upcoming season---your posts are as worthless as a North Korean promise.

now go into internet message board hiding you fraud.

24champ
07-13-2009, 02:41 PM
He has a point though. People's views about Cutler's abilities as a player around here have completely changed since he was traded, something that doesn't affect his skill. This is plain to see, and jilted ex-lover syndrome is rampant around here.

Agreed. I didn't see a single post in a game thread or after a game such as Buffalo of people reporting on the rumor that Jay got drunk before the game and therefore ruined his play. I find it amusing that once he got traded we have people all of a sudden making up rumors about that when they were never there.

colonelbeef
07-13-2009, 02:44 PM
You irrational buffoon. See Peyton Manning circa 2001--colts gave up 30 points/game ----Manning and the Colts went 6-10 and what were Manning's stats you ask????

4100 yards, 26 TDs and 23 ints--

Conclusion--the ONLY time that Peyton Manning had to play with a defense as rotten as ours was the last 2 years--he went 6-10 and threw 23--TWENTY THREE INTERCEPTIONS and went 6-10. This myth that you continue to perpetuate that Cutler was not a great talent is so ridiculous that you should ban yourself for this upcoming season---your posts are as worthless as a North Korean promise.

now go into internet message board hiding you fraud.

Rational thought. Painful, but all true. Good post. Be prepared for the hyperbolic attacks coming back.

Northman
07-13-2009, 02:45 PM
weather one wishes jay well in the future or not (I for one hope a tiger eats his face off) I think any talk about him is vital for the next year when one considers our 1st round draft pick is directly tied to how he plays

The tiger remark is hilarious. Ha!

TDmvp
07-13-2009, 02:45 PM
http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/8471/nottagainz.jpg

Kaylore
07-13-2009, 02:59 PM
Agreed. I didn't see a single post in a game thread or after a game such as Buffalo of people reporting on the rumor that Jay got drunk before the game and therefore ruined his play. I find it amusing that once he got traded we have people all of a sudden making up rumors about that when they were never there.

I already showed I posted those things before last season. You can insinuate I'm lying or making it up, but even if you don't believe me, just about everyone in Denver knows someone who has seen him getting hammered before games, if they haven't seen it themselves.

bpc
07-13-2009, 03:04 PM
See this just proves you're the one being emotional here. I admit I was wrong about Jarvis Moss, and I've been wrong about many other players.

And I've never said "Jay Cutler sucks" or argued that in any way. I said he has a drinking problem and is a whiner and is arrogant. Those are all true. I also have never argued Orton is better or more talented or will be more prolific. Again your emotions are making you "re-imagining" the facts.

And again, this idea that I think "Mike Shanahan is garbage" is BS. I challenge you to find one post of mine where I make this case or even argue something like it.

You can't.

All you have is insults and ranting because YOU are the one who is acting emotional about this and won't move on and trying to make it personal.

Yeah, I was emotional about losing a hall of fame coach (i'm sure you will come back and say he wasn't), and a potentially great young QB who had it all, great arm, toughness, pocket awareness, mobility and the rare ability to carry a team on his back to wins(you'll find something to disagree with here).

You and your cohorts have spent the offseason trying to tear down Shanahan the coach, the GM, and the man while managing to build up a slanderous case against Jay Cutler that is nothing more than you reading the football version of in-touch as your friend of a friend of a friend says that he saw Jay drinking with buddies and had issues. Then you find a picture of him with a beer in his hand to add to your claim.

Honestly, the personal insults come from you. The sad part for me is that there are people that buy into this **** as fact because you live in Denver and have gone to a few training camp practices.

You don't know Jay, you have no idea how he is. You are just speculating and capitalizing off of other peoples hatred.

Pick a name for your actions... sad, stupid, shameful, petty, slanderous, whatever. They all sort of fit the bill for what you're doing.

I think somebody needs to step off the soapbox and come back down to reality. I know you think you're a OM god around because you loiter for hours on end, bash these aforementioned names in basically every thread and come off mightier than thou to most posters. Truth is the act is tired and used.

It's time for everybody to move on from this situation. I hope the Broncos go 12-4, I know Jay will have success (the haters will still try to sound off) and Mike Shanahan will probably win another super bowl or two in his time if he wants to. In the meantime, the jilted wives club will have more venom to spew and tall tails to act like are true.

GO BRONCOS.

Stop the hating and lets get excited for the season, whatever that may bring us.

24champ
07-13-2009, 03:05 PM
I already showed I posted those things before last season. You can insinuate I'm lying or making it up, but even if you don't believe me, just about everyone in Denver knows someone who has seen him getting hammered before games, if they haven't seen it themselves.

Kahn were you downtown? Yes or no?

I lived downtown, Cutler lived 5 minutes away, had a black hummer he drove around with friends. Did Cutler have a few beers? Yes, but never saw him "Drunk" as you make it out to be. Not before gameday anyway.

In fact Cutler wasn't the only one out on these nights, why Cutler is the only one singled out is amusing as well.

Northman
07-13-2009, 03:10 PM
Ya know, I don't think people's views about Cutler have changed that much. Cutler was viewed as a guy with a rocket arm and a ton of potential. I think most people would agree on that point still. The only thing that has changed is that there are a lot of Bronco fans that don't want to see him reach his potential anymore (or don't care if her does or not past this season where we hold the Bears' top pick).

Exactly. It was pretty evident towards the end of last year that Cutler's persona was getting out of hand. His continued whining over the River's fiasco was only the tip of the iceberg there. The guy is talented but he does have a lot to work on but he didnt want to do it here because he got his feelings hurt once again. He's physically gifted, but got major character issues.

elsid13
07-13-2009, 03:13 PM
Kahn were you downtown? Yes or no?

I lived downtown, Cutler lived 5 minutes away, had a black hummer he drove around with friends. Did Cutler have a few beers? Yes, but never saw him "Drunk" as you make it out to be. Not before gameday anyway.

In fact Cutler wasn't the only one out on these nights, why Cutler is the only one singled out is amusing as well.

mind sharing if the others were starters and well known players

24champ
07-13-2009, 03:21 PM
mind sharing if the others were starters and well known players

Yep.

Kaylore
07-13-2009, 03:35 PM
Kahn were you downtown? Yes or no?

I lived downtown, Cutler lived 5 minutes away, had a black hummer he drove around with friends. Did Cutler have a few beers? Yes, but never saw him "Drunk" as you make it out to be. Not before gameday anyway.

In fact Cutler wasn't the only one out on these nights, why Cutler is the only one singled out is amusing as well.

He was downtown, alone, drunk after final call. Four of my friends were there and he was completely hammered and the owner let them stay only because Jay said it was ok. It was before the San Diego game in '07 and we all know how that went. The second time, before the Raiders game, He was again alone getting drunk though admittedly it wasn't "as drunk" as the other night and at least it was earlier in the night.

Then there are multiple rumors of him getting hammered with scheffler before the Buffalo game, though I can't personally vouch for that one. And there are plenty of other stories, 24. Don't pretend this is some creation of jilted fans. Everyone knows about this. It's all over town. Some of the rumors probably aren't true, but this is the same thing as Bailey being a man-whore, or the defense having parties with drugs and maxim girls in '06: Where there's smoke there's fire and words eventually gets out. The guy has a problem. Even without diabetes he shouldn't be out the night before a game getting hammered. It's stupid.

TheReverend
07-13-2009, 03:50 PM
He was downtown, alone, drunk after final call. Four of my friends were there and he was completely hammered and the owner let them stay only because Jay said it was ok. It was before the San Diego game in '07 and we all know how that went. The second time, before the Raiders game, He was again alone getting drunk though admittedly it wasn't "as drunk" as the other night and at least it was earlier in the night.

Then there are multiple rumors of him getting hammered with scheffler before the Buffalo game, though I can't personally vouch for that one. And there are plenty of other stories, 24. Don't pretend this is some creation of jilted fans. Everyone knows about this. It's all over town. Some of the rumors probably aren't true, but this is the same thing as Bailey being a man-whore, or the defense having parties with drugs and maxim girls in '06: Where there's smoke there's fire and words eventually gets out. The guy has a problem. Even without diabetes he shouldn't be out the night before a game getting hammered. It's stupid.

Can't say ANY of those rumors would surprise me one bit.

BroncoBuff
07-13-2009, 03:59 PM
I already showed I posted those things before last season. You can insinuate I'm lying or making it up, but even if you don't believe me, just about everyone in Denver knows someone who has seen him getting hammered before games, if they haven't seen it themselves.
Okay Khan ... you hammer away at that over and over, but remember: John had a real drinking problem, a serious one. If Mothers Against Drunk Drivers had been around back then, John would have done time, he was stopped numerous times, no joke.

Besides, lots of athletes drink. I saw Mark Grace so hammered once, he was practically carried out of a bar in LoDo ... hit 3 doubles in a day game the next day. Don Meredith, Max McGee, Sammy Baugh ... the list goes on and on.


I know we gotta let the guy go, and you're trying to help us, to give us a hand. We appreciate it, but DON'T YANK SO HARD! Our shoulders are gonna pop outta their sockets. We'll get there, we'll get there. ;D

24champ
07-13-2009, 04:02 PM
Don't pretend this is some creation of jilted fans. Everyone knows about this.

It is a creation of some jilted fans (I guess jilted is the word of the day here on the OM) because specifically you keep callling out Jay about his behavior off the field. When many other players on the team were doing the same (drinking), if not worse things (drugs). That's the definition of a jilted lover, singling out the guy that left and nobody else that is CURRENTLY on the team. I'm not in the business of speaking about what my friends saw or heard. I'll leave that up to the Perez Hilton's on this board.


BTW Anyone remember the show "PLAYMAKERS" on ESPN? That's exactly how most NFL players live their lives.

Northman
07-13-2009, 04:02 PM
If Mothers Against Drunk Drivers had been around back then, John would have done time, he was stopped numerous times, no joke.



They were founded in 1980.

Kaylore
07-13-2009, 04:02 PM
Yeah, I was emotional Was? You are just as mad now as you were months ago. about losing a hall of fame coach (i'm sure you will come back and say he wasn't) Keep inventing what I said, BPC, and a potentially great young QB who had it all, great arm, toughness, pocket awareness, mobility and the rare ability to carry a team on his back to wins(you'll find something to disagree with here).

You and your cohorts have spent the offseason trying to tear down Shanahan the coach, the GM, Prove it. Find a post of me doing this. You're a straight up liar.and the man Look at you in your fantasy! Now there are people ripping on him as a man! Pathetic. Post when I did this, if not you're a liar. while managing to build up a slanderous case against Jay Cutler that is nothing more than you reading the football version of in-touch as your friend of a friend of a friend says that he saw Jay drinking with buddies and had issues. Then you find a picture of him with a beer in his hand to add to your claim.
The truth is hard to deal with, isn't it? Just plug your ears and assume this is all made up even though I mentioned it before Shanahan was even fired.

Honestly, the personal insults come from you. PROVE IT the only one who has gotten personal is you. Until you point to something substantive, you're just a liar who is butt hurt about losing the coach and is taking it out anyone who won't join your witch hunt. The sad part for me is that there are people that buy into this **** as fact because you live in Denver and have gone to a few training camp practices.
I'm one guy BPC, and the reason people believe the stuff about Cutler isn't because of me. It's because of the thousands of other people who have also seen it, as well as the new reports coming out of Chicago.


You don't know Jay, you have no idea how he is. You are just speculating and capitalizing off of other peoples hatred.
You don't know me or what I know or who I've talked with. You're just a broken hearted fan looking for something to lash out at.

Pick a name for your actions... sad, stupid, shameful, petty, slanderous, whatever. They all sort of fit the bill for what you're doing.
Like this joke post of yours where you just pretend events happened and then yell at me for them?

I think somebody needs to step off the soapbox and come back down to reality. Irony! I know you think you're a OM god around because you loiter for hours on end, bash these aforementioned names in basically every thread and come off mightier than thou to most posters. Truth is the act is tired and used.
You post more lately than I do, BPC. And really I'm not the one bashing people in every thread. Again, POST WHEN I DID THIS.

It's time for everybody to move on from this situation. I hope the Broncos go 12-4, No you don't. I know Jay will have success (the haters will still try to sound off) and Mike Shanahan will probably win another super bowl or two in his time if he wants to. In the meantime, the jilted wives club will have more venom to spew and tall tails to act like are true. Again, the only one jilted here is you. You're the one that feels compelled to swoop in and defend Jay whenever he's slighted.

Stop the hating This is hilarious coming from you. All you and your ilk do is rip on everything that the Broncos do. You spend more time pimping the Bears than the Broncos and Bash the team at every opportunity

You're full of it, BPC. For the record you need to post where I A.) Said Shanahan was garbage and ripped on his character. B.) Said that Cutler sucked. And C.) Attacked you personally. Somehow in your mind when Popps, tsiguy or whoever else got into it with you, you saw "Kaylore" above their user name. Maybe you just assume anyone who disagrees with you is me.

There have been people doing what you said, but they weren't me. I've said from the beginning that I want to see the team hit the field before I throw him into the fire. And I just say what I know. I don't make crap up and I don't post everything I know. You and the other McDaniels haters are the ones who have already made up your minds on the team, the coach and the players. You're the ones who second guess every move even if Shanahan did the same thing.

I want to root for my team and give them a chance. I want Cutler to do poorly so our draft pick is better next year. I don't think that makes me a bad fan.

TDmvp
07-13-2009, 04:04 PM
I know we gotta let the guy go, and you're trying to help us, to give us a hand. We appreciate it, but DON'T YANK SO HARD! Our shoulders are gonna pop outta their sockets. We'll get there, we'll get there. ;D



:spit: Hilarious! Hilarious! Hilarious!


well at least now I can mark down what to get Kaylore for his birthday ...
Righty or Lefty tho Kaylore ??? ROFL!

http://www.motorcycle-superstore.com/ProductImages/300/2005_EVS_SB02_Shoulder_Brace_Black.jpg

BroncoBuff
07-13-2009, 04:04 PM
You irrational buffoon. See Peyton Manning circa 2001--colts gave up 30 points/game ----Manning and the Colts went 6-10 and what were Manning's stats you ask????

4100 yards, 26 TDs and 23 ints--

Conclusion--the ONLY time that Peyton Manning had to play with a defense as rotten as ours was the last 2 years--he went 6-10 and threw 23--TWENTY THREE INTERCEPTIONS and went 6-10. This myth that you continue to perpetuate that Cutler was not a great talent is so ridiculous that you should ban yourself for this upcoming season---your posts are as worthless as a North Korean promise.

now go into internet message board hiding you fraud.
ROFL!

But he'll never hide, no matter how badly he gets zinged (and that was bad). The reason is, he's a world class level competitor in the Denial Olympics for seniors. He tricks himself into thinking he's always right. And if you don't agree, he'll insult you and cuss you.

Kaylore
07-13-2009, 04:10 PM
It is a creation of some jilted fans (I guess jilted is the word of the day here on the OM) because specifically you keep callling out Jay about his behavior off the field. When many other players on the team were doing the same (drinking), if not worse things (drugs). That's the definition of a jilted lover, singling out the guy that left and nobody else that is CURRENTLY on the team. I'm not in the business of speaking about what my friends saw or heard. I'll leave that up to the Perez Hilton's on this board.


BTW Anyone remember the show "PLAYMAKERS" on ESPN? That's exactly how most NFL players live their lives.

For the record, you brought it up, not me and for the record I haven't been spamming this information like many of you seem to believe.

I would also like to add that I don't care what a player does with his time if he doesn't hurt someone else and keeps it to himself. I do have a problem with a key player of the team getting wasted the night before a game and then coming in hung over. You want to drink? Fine. You want to party? Fine. You want to get drunk? Fine. But don't drive and don't do it the night before games and don't let the commissioner find out.

BroncoBuff
07-13-2009, 04:24 PM
:spit: Hilarious! Hilarious! Hilarious!

well at least now I can mark down what to get Kaylore for his birthday ...
Righty or Lefty tho Kaylore ??? ROFL!

http://www.motorcycle-superstore.com/ProductImages/300/2005_EVS_SB02_Shoulder_Brace_Black.jpg


Perfect ... order me one, extra large. ;D

BroncoBuff
07-13-2009, 04:25 PM
Law Enforcement has begun paying attention to the controversial
strong-arm recruiting tactics of the Kool-Aid Cowboys:

http://www.splendoroftruth.com/curtjester/Pics/defense_counter2.gif
. . . . . Khan . . . . . . . . . . . Blue

KHAN: "Come to the light, Blue, be one of us ... Jay is a drunk!"
BLUE: "I'll cut you, rat bastard! ... I still loves me some Jay!"

Kaylore
07-13-2009, 04:33 PM
Law Enforcement has begun paying attention to the controversial
strong-arm recruiting tactics of the Kool-Aid Cowboys:

http://www.splendoroftruth.com/curtjester/Pics/defense_counter2.gif
. . . . . Khan . . . . . . . . . . . Blue

KHAN: "Come to the light, Blue, be one of us ... Jay is a drunk!"
BLUE: "I'll cut you, rat bastard! ... I still loves me some Jay!"

:rofl: More like Blue: I'll never trust a Patriot. NEVER!!!!!!!!

Cito Pelon
07-13-2009, 04:37 PM
Law Enforcement has begun paying attention to the controversial
strong-arm recruiting tactics of the Kool-Aid Cowboys:

http://www.splendoroftruth.com/curtjester/Pics/defense_counter2.gif
. . . . . Khan . . . . . . . . . . . Blue

KHAN: "Come to the light, Blue, be one of us ... Jay is a drunk!"
BLUE: "I'll cut you, rat bastard! ... I still loves me some Jay!"

Hey, so do those Taser thingies work on chicks, Buff? :approve:

BroncoBuff
07-13-2009, 04:38 PM
And I might know be-CAUSE?

Blueflame
07-13-2009, 04:45 PM
Perfect ... order me one, extra large. ;D

That thing would not fit me... ;) :P

Blueflame
07-13-2009, 04:47 PM
Law Enforcement has begun paying attention to the controversial
strong-arm recruiting tactics of the Kool-Aid Cowboys:

http://www.splendoroftruth.com/curtjester/Pics/defense_counter2.gif
. . . . . Khan . . . . . . . . . . . Blue

KHAN: "Come to the light, Blue, be one of us ... Jay is a drunk!"
BLUE: "I'll cut you, rat bastard! ... I still loves me some Jay!"

:rofl: More like Blue: I'll never trust a Patriot. NEVER!!!!!!!!

Too funny! Ha!

Kaylore has a point... I won't ever trust a Patriot, and that's a fact! :P

Cito Pelon
07-13-2009, 04:54 PM
Agreed. I didn't see a single post in a game thread or after a game such as Buffalo of people reporting on the rumor that Jay got drunk before the game and therefore ruined his play. I find it amusing that once he got traded we have people all of a sudden making up rumors about that when they were never there.

I did. There were some posts that said that right away, but the overwhelming backlash put those posters to rest. Jay was a god -and it was reg season and going down the stretch - so no criticism was allowed. Peer pressure put that to rest quick.

Just look at yourself right now - any criticism of Cutler is met with nuclear pressure to STFU. It was worse during the reg season 2008. Those who dared to criticise Jay were subject to a witch-hunt. It's tough to deal with. Thankfully, some of us have some backbone, otherwise this would be solely a Jay-lover, McDummystupidhead board.

Blueflame
07-13-2009, 05:02 PM
Hey, so do those Taser thingies work on chicks, Buff? :approve:

My guess is... yes, they probably would. However, my husband was never foolhardy enough to use me as a test subject with his...Ha!

24champ
07-13-2009, 05:15 PM
I did. There were some posts that said that right away, but the overwhelming backlash put those posters to rest. Jay was a god -and it was reg season and going down the stretch - so no criticism was allowed. Peer pressure put that to rest quick.

Just look at yourself right now - any criticism of Cutler is met with nuclear pressure to STFU. It was worse during the reg season 2008. Those who dared to criticise Jay were subject to a witch-hunt. It's tough to deal with. Thankfully, some of us have some backbone, otherwise this would be solely a Jay-lover, McDummystupidhead board.

Cool. Make another avatar about it. Moron.

mr007
07-13-2009, 05:52 PM
For what it's worth (and I've posted this previously) I have been out and had shots with Cutler before. He was trashed.....

I still think he's an amazing QB and talent, but I wouldn't think those rumors are unfounded about him being out and about drunk =). Can't say about Buffalo, but I can personally attest to his drinking habits.

Mediator12
07-13-2009, 06:30 PM
Man, there are so many haters on this board for KC Joyner and 99% of you would not have half the football acumen he has. The guy knows NFL football as well as any non-Coach in the league. He knows fronts, coverages, route combination patterns, run fits, Scheme adjustments, zone assignments, POA blocking wins/defeats, pass protection, blown routes, and missed assigments for all the teams each year. How many people here even know a whole game of DEN's ??? Seriously, how many have ever broken down game film ever at any level?

The Guy watches every game in the league for over 4 years, so he KNOWS who is overrated and who is underrated. I watched every single game last year in the NFL for the first time and it totally opened my eyes to how many players are the result of pure ESPN hype. The biggest of these were Marshall and Cutler. And, PFW and several other scouting services also say the same things about these players...

Yet, anyone who wants that information to be WRONG just dismisses information out of hand. Well, I hate to tell you all this but everything Joyner said in that article is spot on. I corraborated all of his DEN material this last year and those Numbers on Jay are dead true. Marshall and Cutler were statistically inflated due to volume. Period. Plus, Cutler had an outstanding supporting cast on offense last year and an effective running game despite all the RB's they used last year. The most damning thing about Jay though was how the offense failed miserably under Cutler in the red zone for 2 1/2 years. He could move the team, but not score TD's consistently.

So, if you disagree, show me WHERE he was wrong instead of flippantly and arrogantly dismissing it out of hand. That's the sign of laziness and no argument.

watermock
07-13-2009, 07:05 PM
Cutler:

http://drunkathlete.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/jay_cutler_drunk_1-copy-400x275.jpg

Orton:

http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff279/patroto/ortonmontage.jpg

watermock
07-13-2009, 07:20 PM
Med, there's alot more to stupid than ignorance and tht's arrogance.

There are MANY factors fo Denver's poor redzone production.

broncofan7
07-13-2009, 07:29 PM
Man, there are so many haters on this board for KC Joyner and 99% of you would not have half the football acumen he has. The guy knows NFL football as well as any non-Coach in the league. He knows fronts, coverages, route combination patterns, run fits, Scheme adjustments, zone assignments, POA blocking wins/defeats, pass protection, blown routes, and missed assigments for all the teams each year. How many people here even know a whole game of DEN's ??? Seriously, how many have ever broken down game film ever at any level?

The Guy watches every game in the league for over 4 years, so he KNOWS who is overrated and who is underrated. I watched every single game last year in the NFL for the first time and it totally opened my eyes to how many players are the result of pure ESPN hype. The biggest of these were Marshall and Cutler. And, PFW and several other scouting services also say the same things about these players...

Yet, anyone who wants that information to be WRONG just dismisses information out of hand. Well, I hate to tell you all this but everything Joyner said in that article is spot on. I corraborated all of his DEN material this last year and those Numbers on Jay are dead true. Marshall and Cutler were statistically inflated due to volume. Period. Plus, Cutler had an outstanding supporting cast on offense last year and an effective running game despite all the RB's they used last year. The most damning thing about Jay though was how the offense failed miserably under Cutler in the red zone for 2 1/2 years. He could move the team, but not score TD's consistently.

So, if you disagree, show me WHERE he was wrong instead of flippantly and arrogantly dismissing it out of hand. That's the sign of laziness and no argument.

See Manning's stats circa 2001. And if I can discover this with the limited time on my hands imagine if I had the time to watch every NFL game or was a scout for a living. You're welcome. And you can apologize for agreeing with 'SETH" Joyner when we are picking in the 20's this year because Chicago wins at least 10 games this year if Jay stays healthy--take that to vegas..you'll win enough money to buy enough tv's to watch every NFL game LIVE next year! :pimp:

cutthemdown
07-13-2009, 07:35 PM
10 wins? I'd say Bears fans thinking more like 12-13 wins. Who cares where Broncos pick falls that is all fate, including where the good players will be ranked when draft comes. It's all timing for those college kids.

Broncos picking at 10, at 20 who cares really.

TonyR
07-13-2009, 07:41 PM
See Manning's stats circa 2001.

What the hell does that prove? The 2001 Colts were the 2nd highest scoring team in the league (Rams were #1) but gave up an epic 486 points, far and away the most in the league. So Manning got it done (defining "getting it done" by scoring) regardless of his stats. Cutler didn't. Try again.

Blueflame
07-13-2009, 07:42 PM
10 wins? I'd say Bears fans thinking more like 12-13 wins. Who cares where Broncos pick falls that is all fate, including where the good players will be ranked when draft comes. It's all timing for those college kids.

Broncos picking at 10, at 20 who cares really.

I daresay we'll all care... bigtime... if Seattle is picking earlier than that (using our #1).

broncofan7
07-13-2009, 07:42 PM
10 wins? I'd say Bears fans thinking more like 12-13 wins. Who cares where Broncos pick falls that is all fate, including where the good players will be ranked when draft comes. It's all timing for those college kids.

Broncos picking at 10, at 20 who cares really.

You cannot be serious--the higher the pick the more inherent value--(besides maybe the #1 overall pick vs #2)

DenverBrit
07-13-2009, 07:44 PM
Man, there are so many haters on this board for KC Joyner and 99% of you would not have half the football acumen he has. The guy knows NFL football as well as any non-Coach in the league. He knows fronts, coverages, route combination patterns, run fits, Scheme adjustments, zone assignments, POA blocking wins/defeats, pass protection, blown routes, and missed assigments for all the teams each year. How many people here even know a whole game of DEN's ??? Seriously, how many have ever broken down game film ever at any level?

The Guy watches every game in the league for over 4 years, so he KNOWS who is overrated and who is underrated. I watched every single game last year in the NFL for the first time and it totally opened my eyes to how many players are the result of pure ESPN hype. The biggest of these were Marshall and Cutler. And, PFW and several other scouting services also say the same things about these players...

Yet, anyone who wants that information to be WRONG just dismisses information out of hand. Well, I hate to tell you all this but everything Joyner said in that article is spot on. I corraborated all of his DEN material this last year and those Numbers on Jay are dead true. Marshall and Cutler were statistically inflated due to volume. Period. Plus, Cutler had an outstanding supporting cast on offense last year and an effective running game despite all the RB's they used last year. The most damning thing about Jay though was how the offense failed miserably under Cutler in the red zone for 2 1/2 years. He could move the team, but not score TD's consistently.

So, if you disagree, show me WHERE he was wrong instead of flippantly and arrogantly dismissing it out of hand. That's the sign of laziness and no argument.

:thumbsup:

BroncoBuff
07-13-2009, 08:07 PM
I watched every single game last year in the NFL for the first time and it totally opened my eyes to how many players are the result of pure ESPN hype. The biggest of these were Marshall and Cutler.
Show me.

Show me even one post of yours that even hinted at this opinion before Shanahan was fired. Show me something that indicates this is anything more than pure hating.

ESPN hype? Please.


PFW and several other scouting services also say the same things about these players...
Again, links?

Opinions are one thing, but this is pure nonsense. Tell me that was a sarcastic post, please.

Besides, "overrated" by whom? Jerry Angelo seems thrilled beyond words, and his acumen makes Joyner look like Bob.

Popps
07-13-2009, 08:30 PM
So, if you disagree, show me WHERE he was wrong instead of flippantly and arrogantly dismissing it out of hand. That's the sign of laziness and no argument.

You know the deal, Med. When they can't discredit the material, they attack the writer. That's a given.

theAPAOps5
07-13-2009, 08:34 PM
Med don't waste your time THEY will always discount anything you say because you don't say Shanahan is a God and Cutler is a Franchise QB. I think Shanny is a God but there is no reason to lie about the second to make the drama queens feel better.

BroncoBuff
07-13-2009, 08:35 PM
You know the deal, Med. When they can't discredit the material, they attack the writer. That's a given.
That "material" is discredited on its face, knothead.

Many football "experts" agree that Jay and Brandon are the two most overrated playesr in the league, they're all "ESPN hype."

That's one of the dumbest posts I've ever read, I don't care who wrote it.

Even Bob would be ashamed of that "material."

watermock
07-13-2009, 08:35 PM
I love handles like Rev, Mediator and such.

Instant cred.

Popps
07-13-2009, 08:36 PM
I daresay we'll all care... bigtime... if Seattle is picking earlier than that (using our #1).

Of course, that will depend on the progress and production of Smith. We traded some draft slots in the future for a chance to get a player we really wanted and to get him a year of experience over the pick we would have had last year. Having big needs at CB, and loving his potential... moving down in a round next year will need to be qualified with all evidence.

We didn't GIVE the pick away.

We traded it for what amounted to a low 1st this year, a guy we had targeted and a guy who by next year at this time, will have a year of NFL experience under his belt on a team that desperately needs experienced, talented DB help.

If we lost 20 draft slots, but Smith turns out to be what they drafted him to be... it's a solid move. If he flops and isn't contributing by next season, then it was a bad move.

But, if you're going to talk about this situation... get it right. By next year, the trade will be.... 15 or so draft slots for the right to have an experienced Smith on our roster, instead of a 2010 rookie question mark.

theAPAOps5
07-13-2009, 08:39 PM
That "material" is discredited on its face, knothead.

Many football "experts" agree that Jay and Brandon are the two most overrated playesr in the league, they're all "ESPN hype."

That's one of the dumbest posts I've ever read, I don't care who wrote it.

Even Bob would be ashamed of that "material."

MEH you are being over the top but I think Med could care less what this board thinks anymore seeing as how infrequently he posts.

Its an opinion but its far from being the dumbest posts ever. I mean you can find the dumbest posts ever on this board in the Bowlen Gutless Drunk thread. Now that is material that would shame Bob.

watermock
07-13-2009, 08:42 PM
Originally Posted by Mediator12

So, if you disagree, show me WHERE he was wrong instead of flippantly and arrogantly dismissing it out of hand. That's the sign of laziness and no argument.


Jesus Christ.

Cutler was still immature, the defense sucked and so did the scheme.We had injuies at RB to the point we had a FB injured and Cook me so crack running the ball along with a cell phone rep. Marshall played hurt all year.

Jesus.

We wouldn't of won a game in the playoffs anyway.

footstepsfrom#27
07-13-2009, 08:46 PM
Pft...the same tool that spends his time charting "almost" INT's.

Next

BroncoBuff
07-13-2009, 08:46 PM
Geez med, I love ya ... but isn't that a bit much? ::)

I THOUGHT WE WERE GETTING PAST ALL THIS?! Arrrggghhhh :moody:

broncocalijohn
07-13-2009, 08:48 PM
Bears never had a QB like Cutler so I think they will take his "problems" and improve from Orton. Our cancer is much different than what the Bears describe as a "Cancer".

Blueflame
07-13-2009, 08:48 PM
Of course, that will depend on the progress and production of Smith. We traded some draft slots in the future for a chance to get a player we really wanted and to get him a year of experience over the pick we would have had last year. Having big needs at CB, and loving his potential... moving down in a round next year will need to be qualified with all evidence.

We didn't GIVE the pick away.

We traded it for what amounted to a low 1st this year, a guy we had targeted and a guy who by next year at this time, will have a year of NFL experience under his belt on a team that desperately needs experienced, talented DB help.

If we lost 20 draft slots, but Smith turns out to be what they drafted him to be... it's a solid move. If he flops and isn't contributing by next season, then it was a bad move.

But, if you're going to talk about this situation... get it right. By next year, the trade will be.... 15 or so draft slots for the right to have an experienced Smith on our roster, instead of a 2010 rookie question mark.

Nonetheless, McDaniels made a big rookie mistake there...an experienced HC would have/should have specified that the 1st rounder in question would be the later of the two we owned rather than allowing Seattle to dictate which one it would be.

Still not yet convinced that Smith was worth either first rounder, for that matter....

watermock
07-13-2009, 08:49 PM
I saw his awesome blocked kick, blown assignment.

we lost 20 draft slots, but Smith turns out to be what they drafted him to be... it's a solid move.

How do you know it was 20 dumbass? Even that is too much considering the leverage we would of had in'10.

I respect Med, but really, he needs a teleprompter to put this much spin on it.

BroncoBuff
07-13-2009, 08:52 PM
Maybe guys like footsteps, SoCal and me are "widows" ... I'll own that.

But the Jay-haters, the excessive ones anyway, are like jilted lovers:

Hell hath no fury like a fanboy scorned.


Do you see what I'm getting at here Popps? hmmm...

If you agree with me, don't reply to this post.

watermock
07-13-2009, 08:54 PM
Still not yet convinced that Smith was worth either first rounder, for that matter....


But, but, he was on our 100 player index card!

theAPAOps5
07-13-2009, 08:54 PM
Pft...the same tool that spends his time charting "almost" INT's.

Next

you are an expert on being a tool!

I am loving watching people flip out over some one calling the greatest mediocre QB ever. Good stuff Med!

UltimateHoboW/Shotgun
07-13-2009, 08:59 PM
The Football Scientist, KC Joyner, is a Fifth Down contributor. Lab results from ďScientific Football 2009,Ē to be published in August, are available for those who order the book now.

Every Thursday at 4 p.m., I do a chat on ESPN.comís SportsNation Web site. The chat format allows people to post any kind of question they want, so the topics tend to jump around a lot.

That wasnít the case this past Thursday, or at least it wasnít after Alex from Chicago asked how well I thought Jay Cutler would do with the Bears this year. I told him: ďIíve said it many times and Iíll say it again ó Cutler will make Bears fans remember Rex Grossman. Heíll make just as many crazy passes but wonít suffer the Grossman fate because Chicagoís fan base is so in love with him that they will forgive the nutty throws he makes in ways that they never forgave Grossman.Ē Much of the rest of the chat was dominated by Bears fans wanting to give me a piece of their minds.

It didnít stop there. Brad Biggs of the Inside The Bears blog on The Chicago Sun-Times posted my comments there, and many of his readers also took me to task (including one who said ďI unemotionally state KC Joyner is an idiotĒ). That trend continued when Aaron Wilson of ProFootballTalk.com posted a comment about Bradís story there on Saturday (and multiple Chicago followers threw both Brad and me under the bus).

Now I understand that fan scrutiny comes with the territory, so I donít mind that, but what I donít understand is why those fans are treating Cutler differently than they did either Grossman or Kyle Orton.

Grossman was on fire during the first part of Chicagoís Super Bowl season, and yet as soon as he had the bad game against Miami, it seemed the entire city turned on him. It didnít go that much differently for Orton. He had a tremendous start to the 2008 season, but when he struggled down the stretch, the populace seemed to say goodbye and good riddance without much of a second thought.

I also donít understand why there seems to be such excitement about Cutler. Yes, he threw for over 4,500 yards last year, but that was in large part because he put the ball up a whopping 616 times. His 9.8 vertical YPA was lower than that of 19 other QBs last season, and his 4.6% bad decision rate (a bad decision being a mistake by the QB that leads to a turnover or a near turnover) was easily the worst of any QB. He was also the offensive leader for a team that blew a three-game division lead with three games to go.

Another way to look at this is that Cutlerís overall record is 17-20 versus Ortonís overall record of 21-12 and Grossmanís 19-12. I know there are those who will defend this by saying that Cutler worked with a horrible defense last year, but when he took over the Broncos in 2006, they were less than a full season removed from hosting the AFC championship game.

The only reason I can come up with as to why Bears fans are reacting like this is that the quarterback position has been such a headache for them over the years that they will do just about anything to make it go away. If that means ignoring Cutlerís shortcomings so that at least one off-season goes by without having to wonder if their quarterbackís play will measure up, theyíll do it just for the temporary peace of mind. I do admire that kind of team passion and loyalty, but Iíd admire it a bit more if it were done by hoping that Cutler could improve his game rather than by backing his mixed bag of performance history.

http://fifthdown.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/07/13/sorry-bears-fans-cutler-isnt-the-answer/



:~ohyah!:

Hello! 7 different RB in 1 season.

BroncoBuff
07-13-2009, 09:03 PM
Nonetheless, McDaniels made a big rookie mistake there...an experienced HC would have/should have specified that the 1st rounder in question would be the later of the two we owned rather than allowing Seattle to dictate which one it would be.
This is definitely true ... a clause specifying the lower of the two, or at least say, "top 10 protection," like in the NBA, was definitely indicated here.

And of course Josh is after all performing front office tasks for the first time ever, so, 2 + 2 = 4.

I wish I could get a video of the Jim Mora post-draft show that Sunday night ... they said something like "we decided to take the Denver pick," and then they were laughing about cheering against Denver. The laughing is okay, they'd be cheering against Chicago otherwise, but Mora seemed very smug-ish when he said "we decided," or words to that effect. He looked like the cat who ate the worm (no offense worm).


Still not yet convinced that Smith was worth either first rounder, for that matter....
Actually I really like Smith ... by all reports he's definitely a first round talent. And like my good friend Popps said, we get him we get one year early. That has value.

TheReverend
07-13-2009, 09:06 PM
This is definitely true ... a clause specifying the lower of the two, or at least say, "top 10 protection," like in the NBA, was definitely indicated here.

And of course Josh is after all performing front office tasks for the first time ever, so, 2 + 2 = 4.

I wish I could get a video of the Jim Mora post-draft show that Sunday night ... they said something like "we decided to take the Denver pick," and then they were laughing about cheering against Denver. The laughing is okay, they'd be cheering against Chicago otherwise, but Mora seemed very smug-ish when he said "we decided," or words to that effect. He looked like the cat who ate the worm (no offense worm).

I'd like to see that too.

I happen to agree with Mora, but I'm not sure he's in a position to be smug when he's about to get bent over again by the Cardinals, only even rougher this time.

TheReverend
07-13-2009, 09:09 PM
Man, there are so many haters on this board for KC Joyner and 99% of you would not have half the football acumen he has. The guy knows NFL football as well as any non-Coach in the league. He knows fronts, coverages, route combination patterns, run fits, Scheme adjustments, zone assignments, POA blocking wins/defeats, pass protection, blown routes, and missed assigments for all the teams each year. How many people here even know a whole game of DEN's ??? Seriously, how many have ever broken down game film ever at any level?

The Guy watches every game in the league for over 4 years, so he KNOWS who is overrated and who is underrated. I watched every single game last year in the NFL for the first time and it totally opened my eyes to how many players are the result of pure ESPN hype. The biggest of these were Marshall and Cutler. And, PFW and several other scouting services also say the same things about these players...

Yet, anyone who wants that information to be WRONG just dismisses information out of hand. Well, I hate to tell you all this but everything Joyner said in that article is spot on. I corraborated all of his DEN material this last year and those Numbers on Jay are dead true. Marshall and Cutler were statistically inflated due to volume. Period. Plus, Cutler had an outstanding supporting cast on offense last year and an effective running game despite all the RB's they used last year. The most damning thing about Jay though was how the offense failed miserably under Cutler in the red zone for 2 1/2 years. He could move the team, but not score TD's consistently.

So, if you disagree, show me WHERE he was wrong instead of flippantly and arrogantly dismissing it out of hand. That's the sign of laziness and no argument.

Epic. I'm excited. You know how much I hate Joyner. When I sober up you want to have this one out here, off-site, PM, e-mail, etc?

Dagmar
07-13-2009, 09:09 PM
Imagine how bad this place is going to become if the beetus monster does well...

theAPAOps5
07-13-2009, 09:10 PM
Maybe guys like footsteps, SoCal and me are "widows" ... I'll own that.

But the Jay-haters, the excessive ones anyway, are like jilted lovers:

Hell hath no fury like a fanboy scorned.


Do you see what I'm getting at here Popps? hmmm...

If you agree with me, don't reply to this post.

The irony in your post is hilarious. You guys are just as jilted.

SoCalBronco
07-13-2009, 09:11 PM
KC Joyner gets ****ed up. :)

Monday, July 13, 2009
Jay Cutler vs. Kyle Orton vs. Rex Grossman, by the numbers
KC Joyner, of Scientific Football fame and currently guest-blogging at the NY Times Fifth Down Blog, continues to ruffle feathers. He claims that former Broncos quarterback Cutler will be equally mediocre or worse than the two previous Bears QBs, Kyle Orton and Rex Grossman. Joyner:


Alex from Chicago asked how well I thought Jay Cutler would do with the Bears this year. I told him: ďIíve said it many times and Iíll say it again ó Cutler will make Bears fans remember Rex Grossman. Heíll make just as many crazy passes but wonít suffer the Grossman fate because Chicagoís fan base is so in love with him that they will forgive the nutty throws he makes in ways that they never forgave Grossman.Ē ....

Now I understand that fan scrutiny comes with the territory, so I donít mind that, but what I donít understand is why those fans are treating Cutler differently than they did either Grossman or Kyle Orton.

Grossman was on fire during the first part of Chicagoís Super Bowl season, and yet as soon as he had the bad game against Miami, it seemed the entire city turned on him. It didnít go that much differently for Orton. He had a tremendous start to the 2008 season, but when he struggled down the stretch, the populace seemed to say goodbye and good riddance without much of a second thought.

I also donít understand why there seems to be such excitement about Cutler. Yes, he threw for over 4,500 yards last year, but that was in large part because he put the ball up a whopping 616 times. His 9.8 vertical YPA was lower than that of 19 other QBs last season, and his 4.6% bad decision rate (a bad decision being a mistake by the QB that leads to a turnover or a near turnover) was easily the worst of any QB. He was also the offensive leader for a team that blew a three-game division lead with three games to go. . . .

The only reason I can come up with as to why Bears fans are reacting like this is that the quarterback position has been such a headache for them over the years that they will do just about anything to make it go away. If that means ignoring Cutlerís shortcomings so that at least one off-season goes by without having to wonder if their quarterbackís play will measure up, theyíll do it just for the temporary peace of mind. I do admire that kind of team passion and loyalty, but Iíd admire it a bit more if it were done by hoping that Cutler could improve his game rather than by backing his mixed bag of performance history.


Note that he conflates two comparisons, and it's unclear what he's saying precisely. One is that Cutler is the better quarterback, but it is Chicago and thus his success will be pretty much on par with what the other Chicago QBs did. The other is that Cutler is simply no better of a quarterback than Grossman or Orton, and it only appears that way because he threw the ball so much.

My favorite passing stat is yards per attempt, because it sweeps in both completion percentage and the yards gained on the completion; I think it reflects the trade-off between pushing the ball downfield and taking the easier completion for less yardage. I like to adjust it, however, to account for interceptions: I subtract 45 yards for every interception thrown, as that is the basic estimate of how much field position/value you lose. No stat is perfect, but I like this one a lot.


In 2008, Jay Cutler threw for 4,526 yards on 616 attempts. He also threw 18 interceptions. Together, that gives him an Adjusted Yards Per Attempt of 6.03.


In 2008, Kyle Orton threw for 2,972 yards on 465 attempts, along with 12 interceptions. Together, his Adj. YPA was 5.23.


In 2006, the year the Bears went to the Super Bowl, Rex Grossman threw for 3,193 yards on 480 pass attempts. He also threw 20 interceptions. Together, his Adj. YPA was 4.78.

Again, this is just one stat, but I think it's a pretty good indicator, and Cutler far and away scores the best. And, ironically, he does so despite so many more pass attempts: YPA tends to trend back down once a passer goes beyond being mostly a play-action type guy as a play off the ground game, like Ben Roethlisberger has been for much of his career.

Relatedly, let's take Advanced NFL Stats's "Air yards" stat, which calculates yards per attempt without reference to yards after the catch -- yards gained by receivers after they catch the ball. (This stat tends to both measure a QB's ability to complete downfield passes, as well as their propensity to check the ball down to a runningback. Young quarterbacks tend to score most poorly on the list because they struggle downfield and dump the ball off quite a bit.)

Cutler comes in at 7th in the league at 4.3 yards per attempt (again, just "Air yards"), while Orton is 29th with 3.3. In 2006, Grossman's was 3.9, and, in 2007 on much less work, it was 3.5. For comparison, Brady and Manning have spent most of the last few years hovering between 4.9-5.2 (though Peyton dipped to 4.3 this past season).

Having looked at these stats, I think the question is why does KC Joyner think Cutler will be no better than Grossman or Orton?

http://smartfootball.blogspot.com/

DBroncos4life
07-13-2009, 09:12 PM
When does one player in a team game ever have to be the answer? I think the Bears are counting on him to be the missing piece to their puzzle.

TheReverend
07-13-2009, 09:12 PM
The irony in your post is hilarious. You guys are just as jilted.

A PM from Apa on January 8th.

But then Jay put his finger deeper in my butt, and I didn't like it anymore. But I was so shocked, I couldn't formulate the words to ask him to stop...

I dunno man... what should I do?

Clearly biased.

theAPAOps5
07-13-2009, 09:14 PM
A PM from Apa on January 8th.



Clearly biased.

LOL weak but I am sure its hilarious when drunk. Most dumb stuff is when on liquor..... ^5

TheReverend
07-13-2009, 09:15 PM
LOL weak but I am sure its hilarious when drunk. Most dumb stuff is when on liquor..... ^5

Then why the LOL? !Booya!

BroncoBuff
07-13-2009, 09:16 PM
The irony in your post is hilarious. You guys are just as jilted.
Noooo ... we're the "widows," as in sad, and mourning, "He was too young to go!" :vermeil:

The Jay-haters are the jilted ones, "the NERVE of that bastard to dump me! I hate that bastard now, I could care less what he does! He can drop dead as far as I'm concerned!"

Both metaphors work ....

theAPAOps5
07-13-2009, 09:17 PM
Noooo ... we're the "widows," as in sad, and mourning, "He was too young to go!" :vermeil:

The Jay-haters are the jilted ones, "the NERVE of that bastard to dump me! I hate that bastard now, I could care less what he does! He can drop dead as far as I'm concerned!"

Both metaphors work ....

Point taken and conceded!

theAPAOps5
07-13-2009, 09:18 PM
Then why the LOL? !Booya!

Because laughing at drunks is fun! Ha!

BroncoBuff
07-13-2009, 09:19 PM
KC Joyner gets ****ed up. :)

My favorite passing stat is yards per attempt, because it sweeps in both completion percentage and the yards gained on the completion; I think it reflects the trade-off between pushing the ball downfield and taking the easier completion for less yardage. I like to adjust it, however, to account for interceptions: I subtract 45 yards for every interception thrown, as that is the basic estimate of how much field position/value you lose. No stat is perfect, but I like this one a lot.

In 2008, Jay Cutler threw for 4,526 yards on 616 attempts. He also threw 18 interceptions. Together, that gives him an Adjusted Yards Per Attempt of 6.03.

In 2008, Kyle Orton threw for 2,972 yards on 465 attempts, along with 12 interceptions. Together, his Adj. YPA was 5.23.

In 2006, the year the Bears went to the Super Bowl, Rex Grossman threw for 3,193 yards on 480 pass attempts. He also threw 20 interceptions. Together, his Adj. YPA was 4.78.

Again, this is just one stat, but I think it's a pretty good indicator, and [B]Cutler far and away scores the best. And, ironically, he does so despite so many more pass attempts.

Wow .. interesting formula.

Will the real K.C. Joyner ... please stand up?

TheReverend
07-13-2009, 09:20 PM
Because laughing at drunks is fun! Ha!

Laughing at forced sobriety and diaper changing while being drunk is more fun

(PS. You done got ownnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnned!)

SoCalBronco
07-13-2009, 09:21 PM
Wow .. interesting formula.

Will the real K.C. Joyner ... please stand up?

I'm waiting for tsiguy and other d-bags to pipe up something to the effect that "I'll take KC Joyner over some blogger" except that this blogger was a former member of the Purdue offensive staff and has written dozens of excellent articles on offensive football.

Blueflame
07-13-2009, 09:23 PM
The irony in your post is hilarious. You guys are just as jilted.

While I would have liked to see Jay remain a Bronco, I'm over him now because he's with another team. The whole unseemly "McDaniels/Cutler breakup" is unfortunate, but we all do need to move on. This seems tough for some who appear to have a "need" to create thread after thread (what is it... 4 this week alone?) for no purpose other than to bash Cutler, malign his character and/or outright revise history to suit their own (new) prejudices.

I don't feel "jilted" at all... a professional football player looked out for his own best interests. And that's OK.

TheReverend
07-13-2009, 09:24 PM
While I would have liked to see Jay remain a Bronco, I'm over him now because he's with another team. The whole unseemly "McDaniels/Cutler breakup" is unfortunate, but we all do need to move on. This seems tough for some who appear to have a "need" to create thread after thread (what is it... 4 this week alone?) for no purpose other than to bash Cutler, malign his character and/or outright revise history to suit their own (new) prejudices.

I don't feel "jilted" at all... a professional football player looked out for his own best interests. And that's OK.

I don't feel jilted.

I feel like I got bent over raw-dog by McD though.

BroncoBuff
07-13-2009, 09:28 PM
Yes ApaOps, Med is right about that, that Jay's GROSS numbers are inflated because of so many throws (and the great pass protection.) But SoCal's, link referring to Joyner's formula, makes pretty clear that his quality is damn good too.

One part of that formula I don't like - and it would make Jay's number even BETTER - is that it subtracts 45 yards for an Int, saying that's "about" the yardage lost vs. a punt. Well, no it's not. For several reasons:

1. Punts average 30-40 yards ... a 45-yarder is well above average.
2. The yardage on the punt return minuses that
3. He completely forgets the yards "gained" in the int. Int's are made on average say, 15-20 yards upfield. You gotta subtract that from the 45
4. Finally, many Int's happen inside punting range, so you can maybe say you lose a FG attempt, but not 45 yards.
5. Sometime Int's are "as good as a punt."
6. Lots of Ints are on "Holy Marys", about 3 per year per starter.

BroncoBuff
07-13-2009, 09:29 PM
SoCal, my mistake ... that's not a Joyner article.

theAPAOps5
07-13-2009, 09:29 PM
Laughing at forced sobriety and diaper changing while being drunk is more fun

(PS. You done got ownnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnned!)

Oh but being tipsy and changing diapers makes it so much easier. Laugh away but I am far from being owwwwwwwwnnnnneeeedddd. LOSER! :kiss:

footstepsfrom#27
07-13-2009, 09:30 PM
you are an expert on being a tool!

I am loving watching people flip out over some one calling the greatest mediocre QB ever. Good stuff Med!
I know a poser when I see Joyner spouting off about something he seems personally invested in. Mr "Almost" misses the mark with an exceptionally stupid analysis based on "what if".

TheReverend
07-13-2009, 09:31 PM
Oh but being tipsy and changing diapers makes it so much easier. Laugh away but I am far from being owwwwwwwwnnnnneeeedddd. LOSER! :kiss:

Brb, drinking more until I think Cutler's still a Bronco.

theAPAOps5
07-13-2009, 09:32 PM
Yes ApaOps, Med is right about that, that Jay's GROSS numbers are inflated because of so many throws (and the great pass protection.) But SoCal's, link referring to Joyner's formula, makes pretty clear that his quality is damn good,m too.

One part of that formula I don't like - and it would make Jay's number BETTER - is that he subtracts 45 yards for an Int, saying that's "about" the yardage lost vs. a punt. Well, no it's not. For several reasons:

1. Punts average 30-41 yards.
2. The yardage on the punt return minuses that
3. He completely forgets the yards "gained" in the int. Int's are made on average say, 15-20 yards upfield. You gotta subtract that from the 45
4. Finally, many Int's happen inside punting range, so you can maybe say you lose a FG attempt, but not 45 yards.
5. Sometime Int's are "as good as a punt."
6. Lots of Ints are on "Holy Marys", about 3 per year per starter.

Oh don't get me wrong I am not a Joyner supporter but I don't discredit him either. I enjoy his perspective among many others. The thing about stats is you can find a way to manipulate them to favor your argument if you try hard enough. So you have to take a middle slice of the data.

theAPAOps5
07-13-2009, 09:33 PM
I know a poser when I see Joyner spouting off about something he seems personally invested in. Mr "Almost" misses the mark with an exceptionally stupid analysis based on "what if".

Oh footsteps relax I am an expert on being a tool too! Its why I can call you one! 8')

Blueflame
07-13-2009, 09:38 PM
This is definitely true ... a clause specifying the lower of the two, or at least say, "top 10 protection," like in the NBA, was definitely indicated here.

And of course Josh is after all performing front office tasks for the first time ever, so, 2 + 2 = 4.

I wish I could get a video of the Jim Mora post-draft show that Sunday night ... they said something like "we decided to take the Denver pick," and then they were laughing about cheering against Denver. The laughing is okay, they'd be cheering against Chicago otherwise, but Mora seemed very smug-ish when he said "we decided," or words to that effect. He looked like the cat who ate the worm (no offense worm).



Actually I really like Smith ... by all reports he's definitely a first round talent. And like my good friend Popps said, we get him we get one year early. That has value.

The point is, Buff....McDaniels can't afford (PR-wise) for him to be anything else but a "great-value-overachiever"... by giving up our 1st rounder to move up in the 2nd round of a notably-weak draft, the action was immediately characterized as a "reach", which means Smith's performance must prove beyond a doubt that it wasn't one. If he doesn't play "lights-out" (isn't an impact player in his rookie year)... then McDaniels will be second-guessed and face a lot of criticism. Particularly if the first rounder we gave to Seattle ends up being top-ten....

watermock
07-13-2009, 09:52 PM
Man, for a KC Joiner hater, I guess I don't know, or care.

Shouldn't he be complaining how ther're paying Cassell 14M for 1 year on a 2/14 team?
Or better, how the Bears are paying 600k for Cutler? With 3 years left.

Which is it med?

watermock
07-13-2009, 09:57 PM
The point is, Buff....McDaniels can't afford (PR-wise) for him to be anything else but a "great-value-overachiever"... by giving up our 1st rounder to move up in the 2nd round of a notably-weak draft, the action was immediately characterized as a "reach", which means Smith's performance must prove beyond a doubt that it wasn't one. If he doesn't play "lights-out" (isn't an impact player in his rookie year)... then McDaniels will be second-guessed and face a lot of criticism. Particularly if the first rounder we gave to Seattle ends up being top-ten....

That is the real point. However, vanity got in the way of judjement.

Blueflame
07-13-2009, 10:02 PM
That is the real point. However, vanity got in the way of judjement.

We'd be OK if arrogance and overconfidence could compensate for inexperience...

BroncoBuff
07-13-2009, 10:06 PM
We'd be OK if arrogance and overconfidence could compensate for inexperience...
LOL ... classic.

theAPAOps5
07-13-2009, 10:06 PM
We'd be OK if arrogance and overconfidence could compensate for inexperience...

how about waiting until the season is over until making statements like this. Or else you just look like a drama queen. Er wait on second thought keep it up it makes the mane that much more fun!

Blueflame
07-13-2009, 10:13 PM
how about waiting until the season is over until making statements like this. Or else you just look like a drama queen. Er wait on second thought keep it up it makes the mane that much more fun!

One doesn't have to wait until after the season is over to notice that the man comes across as arrogant and overconfident. And it's a "given" that he's inexperienced as a GM/HC. So what's the problem with my remark? Even Pat Bowlen has acknowledged that McDaniels "has made rookie mistakes"...

I'll concede the point that it will take time before we know whether or not his methodology works....

BroncoBuff
07-13-2009, 10:13 PM
how about waiting until the season is over until making statements like this. Or else you just look like a drama queen. Er wait on second thought keep it up it makes the mane that much more fun!
You don't need W-L results for that post to be correct ... we could win the division and that post would still be valid.

The Bears could get the #1 pick for us and that post would still be valid.

'Arrogance', 'overconfidence' and 'inexperience' are all accurate.

One of these - overconfidence - can perhaps be proven justified, but that doesn't mean they're not overconfident.


Why do you jilted fanboys always equate 'dissent' with a desire/prediction we'll have a poor season?

That is exactly like George W. Bush's attitude, "you're either with us or against us." And that's just dumb :(

BroncoBuff
07-13-2009, 10:15 PM
Jinx you owe me a Coke, Blue ... yummmm

TheReverend
07-13-2009, 10:24 PM
That is exactly like George W. Bush's attitude, "you're either with us or against us." And that's just dumb :(

I have to admit, I'm so sick of that statement.

Blueflame
07-13-2009, 10:37 PM
Jinx you owe me a Coke, Blue ... yummmm

LOL OK.....

summerdenver
07-13-2009, 11:53 PM
Maybe guys like footsteps, SoCal and me are "widows" ... I'll own that.

But the Jay-haters, the excessive ones anyway, are like jilted lovers:

Hell hath no fury like a fanboy scorned.




Eventhough it does not have the same condescending sound of widows, i like the The kool-aid Cowboys better or even Jilted Groupies.

Law Enforcement has begun paying attention to the controversial
strong-arm recruiting tactics of the Kool-Aid Cowboys:

http://www.splendoroftruth.com/curtjester/Pics/defense_counter2.gif
. . . . . Khan . . . . . . . . . . . Blue

KHAN: "Come to the light, Blue, be one of us ... Jay is a drunk!"
BLUE: "I'll cut you, rat bastard! ... I still loves me some Jay!"

edit- corrected the hyphens in kool-aid

Dudeskey
07-13-2009, 11:57 PM
http://forums.randi.org/images/smilies/lurk.gif

summerdenver
07-14-2009, 12:28 AM
Man, there are so many haters on this board for KC Joyner and 99% of you would not have half the football acumen he has. The guy knows NFL football as well as any non-Coach in the league. He knows fronts, coverages, route combination patterns, run fits, Scheme adjustments, zone assignments, POA blocking wins/defeats, pass protection, blown routes, and missed assigments for all the teams each year. How many people here even know a whole game of DEN's ??? Seriously, how many have ever broken down game film ever at any level?

The Guy watches every game in the league for over 4 years, so he KNOWS who is overrated and who is underrated. I watched every single game last year in the NFL for the first time and it totally opened my eyes to how many players are the result of pure ESPN hype. The biggest of these were Marshall and Cutler. And, PFW and several other scouting services also say the same things about these players...

Yet, anyone who wants that information to be WRONG just dismisses information out of hand. Well, I hate to tell you all this but everything Joyner said in that article is spot on. I corraborated all of his DEN material this last year and those Numbers on Jay are dead true. Marshall and Cutler were statistically inflated due to volume. Period. Plus, Cutler had an outstanding supporting cast on offense last year and an effective running game despite all the RB's they used last year. The most damning thing about Jay though was how the offense failed miserably under Cutler in the red zone for 2 1/2 years. He could move the team, but not score TD's consistently.

So, if you disagree, show me WHERE he was wrong instead of flippantly and arrogantly dismissing it out of hand. That's the sign of laziness and no argument.


I am pretty sure that KC is lot more knowledgeable than me about football and I am pretty sure he has done his homework before he wrote his article. However, it is very plain to me to see the fallacy in his argument (atleast how the cowboys have been interpreting it on this thread).

i. He is using a single stat to decide the efficiency of a QB. To me that seems overly simplistic. I mean he is not even considering things like quality of opposition (bad decision against Det is more serious than against Pit which is likely to be forced) or garbage time stats (Does Jay cutler's interception against Pats has any bearing on the game? on the other hand his interception against KC1 killed us) On top of that it is been extrapolated on this thread that different QBs with similar rating per this metric are similar. Do you really think Rex Grossman and Jay Cutler are same QB?

This is overly simplistic and system that uses a collection of such metrics instead of just one to estimate efficiency of a QB (ala DVOA of outsiders) is better IMHO. DVOA just hates Rex Grossman while it .... lets leave it there

ii. He is projecting that past performance of this bad decison metric is carried forward to next year without any evidence of past examples. IIRC, Jake Plummer was one of the best per this metric in 2005 but he fell down in 2006 same with Girard two years ago. I have no problems in agreeing that Jay Cutler fared badly on this metric in 2008, but to say he will also do equally badly in 2009 seems a bit harsh. I would give more credence to his view if he were to say something like "Based on my scouting of the game tape I think Jay will always be a bad decision maker" I will buy it more. But this argument seems to be more on the lines of 'Jay Culter has bad rating per this metric so he will have a bad rating again next year'.

If you really look into the difference between best decisoon makers Peyton, Brady and worst decision makers Jay Cutler, Brett Favre, it is around 2%. That comes out to around 2 throws per 3 games (assuming 33 throws per game). If Jay cutler were to eliminate 2 bad decisions per every 3 games in 2009, he would have posted elite rating per this metric.

He is going to a system where he will not be asked to do as much and where he knows ST and defense will keep give him a chance to win the game. He is entering his 3 rd year as a starter, to say he will not improve by 2 throws over 3 games seems very harsh.

Finally, I will not even bring up what the similarity system of Football outsiders says about Jay cutler. If I were write the top 4 names that Jays profile matches so far per their system, it will drive the groupies even more insane.

ZONA
07-14-2009, 12:36 AM
4.6% bad decision rate (a bad decision being a mistake by the QB that leads to a turnover or a near turnover) was easily the worst of any QB.

This has to really stick out and make you scratch your head. I've said many times on this board that Cutler not only threw alot of picks, but he had a bazillion picks that were right smack in the defenders hands that were simply dropped. With one of the best game day play callers, a stud offensive line, great WR's, decent TE's and RB's, and several years of knowing the system, why he still rated the worst in the league in decision making is beyond me. I loved other parts of his game and he was improving in alot of areas, but this is one area he was not getting it done in. I believe this area is definitely his weak point and ultimately will be the main factor in him ever becoming an elite QB in this league.

24champ
07-14-2009, 12:56 AM
Laughing at forced sobriety and diaper changing while being drunk is more fun

(PS. You done got ownnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnned!)

Hey rev, hope you don't have a game tomorrow....you know the OM frowns on drunk before a game stuff.

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f358/ericaberghan/ist2_344071_mean_old_lady.jpg

watermock
07-14-2009, 02:48 AM
4.6% bad decision rate (a bad decision being a mistake by the QB that leads to a turnover or a near turnover) was easily the worst of any QB.

This has to really stick out and make you scratch your head. I've said many times on this board that Cutler not only threw alot of picks, but he had a bazillion picks that were right smack in the defenders hands that were simply dropped. With one of the best game day play callers, a stud offensive line, great WR's, decent TE's and RB's, and several years of knowing the system, why he still rated the worst in the league in decision making is beyond me. I loved other parts of his game and he was improving in alot of areas, but this is one area he was not getting it done in. I believe this area is definitely his weak point and ultimately will be the main factor in him ever becoming an elite QB in this league.

/That's fair, but to say we had consistency in both OL (in he run game) and RB in the redzone is absurd.
As is "YEARS IN THE SYSTEM". Favre had "Years in the system" which is why he's going to minn.

Also, do you think his passes were easier to drop for recievers? Again Elway comes to mind.

Let me remind you. Cutler shattered Elways stats his first 2,5 years.

But Elway had "the drive", in a close game. Cutler chocked at home against
Buffalo.

We had no shot against Car or SD.

Our D was pathetic, and Jay knew it.

watermock
07-14-2009, 02:53 AM
Imajine the "risks" Cutler would have taken with a TD or Moeno, or even Hillis. Huh?

Yes, he second Oakland game, that is the 1. I didn't see it.

TonyR
07-14-2009, 05:52 AM
...I think the question is why does KC Joyner think Cutler will be no better than Grossman or Orton? [/B]


I'm not sure Joyner said Cutler would be "no better" than Grossman or Orton. He said Cutler would remind Bears fans of Grossman, and that Cutler wasn't "the answer", but I don't know that he ever said "no better".

misturanderson
07-14-2009, 09:08 AM
You don't need W-L results for that post to be correct ... we could win the division and that post would still be valid.

The Bears could get the #1 pick for us and that post would still be valid.

'Arrogance', 'overconfidence' and 'inexperience' are all accurate.

One of these - overconfidence - can perhaps be proven justified, but that doesn't mean they're not overconfident.


Why do you jilted fanboys always equate 'dissent' with a desire/prediction we'll have a poor season?

That is exactly like George W. Bush's attitude, "you're either with us or against us." And that's just dumb :(

I don't think that "OVERconfidence" would be an accurate description of McD if he even managed to get us to the playoffs. OVERconfidence can never be proven justified. Arrogance can, but OVERconfidence implies that the confidence is unwarranted.

footstepsfrom#27
07-14-2009, 09:33 AM
Law Enforcement has begun paying attention to the controversial
strong-arm recruiting tactics of the Kool-Aid Cowboys:

http://www.splendoroftruth.com/curtjester/Pics/defense_counter2.gif
. . . . . Khan . . . . . . . . . . . Blue

KHAN: "Come to the light, Blue, be one of us ... Jay is a drunk!"
BLUE: "I'll cut you, rat bastard! ... I still loves me some Jay!"
Shoulda had Blue delivering the Chuck Norris to the groin. ;D

footstepsfrom#27
07-14-2009, 09:35 AM
4.6% bad decision rate (a bad decision being a mistake by the QB that leads to a turnover or a near turnover) was easily the worst of any QB.

This has to really stick out and make you scratch your head. I've said many times on this board that Cutler not only threw alot of picks, but he had a bazillion picks that were right smack in the defenders hands that were simply dropped. With one of the best game day play callers, a stud offensive line, great WR's, decent TE's and RB's, and several years of knowing the system, why he still rated the worst in the league in decision making is beyond me. I loved other parts of his game and he was improving in alot of areas, but this is one area he was not getting it done in. I believe this area is definitely his weak point and ultimately will be the main factor in him ever becoming an elite QB in this league.
Ask yourself a simple question; how would anyone not intimately acquainted with the Denver playbook have the slightest idea whether he was the one who made an error on any given play?

Mediator12
07-14-2009, 09:43 AM
I am pretty sure that KC is lot more knowledgeable than me about football and I am pretty sure he has done his homework before he wrote his article. However, it is very plain to me to see the fallacy in his argument (atleast how the cowboys have been interpreting it on this thread).

i. He is using a single stat to decide the efficiency of a QB. To me that seems overly simplistic. I mean he is not even considering things like quality of opposition (bad decision against Det is more serious than against Pit which is likely to be forced) or garbage time stats (Does Jay cutler's interception against Pats has any bearing on the game? on the other hand his interception against KC1 killed us) On top of that it is been extrapolated on this thread that different QBs with similar rating per this metric are similar. Do you really think Rex Grossman and Jay Cutler are same QB?

This is overly simplistic and system that uses a collection of such metrics instead of just one to estimate efficiency of a QB (ala DVOA of outsiders) is better IMHO. DVOA just hates Rex Grossman while it .... lets leave it there

ii. He is projecting that past performance of this bad decison metric is carried forward to next year without any evidence of past examples. IIRC, Jake Plummer was one of the best per this metric in 2005 but he fell down in 2006 same with Girard two years ago. I have no problems in agreeing that Jay Cutler fared badly on this metric in 2008, but to say he will also do equally badly in 2009 seems a bit harsh. I would give more credence to his view if he were to say something like "Based on my scouting of the game tape I think Jay will always be a bad decision maker" I will buy it more. But this argument seems to be more on the lines of 'Jay Culter has bad rating per this metric so he will have a bad rating again next year'.

If you really look into the difference between best decisoon makers Peyton, Brady and worst decision makers Jay Cutler, Brett Favre, it is around 2%. That comes out to around 2 throws per 3 games (assuming 33 throws per game). If Jay cutler were to eliminate 2 bad decisions per every 3 games in 2009, he would have posted elite rating per this metric.

He is going to a system where he will not be asked to do as much and where he knows ST and defense will keep give him a chance to win the game. He is entering his 3 rd year as a starter, to say he will not improve by 2 throws over 3 games seems very harsh.

Finally, I will not even bring up what the similarity system of Football outsiders says about Jay cutler. If I were write the top 4 names that Jays profile matches so far per their system, it will drive the groupies even more insane.

I appreciate the attempt SD, this is the ONLY refutation of what JOyner actually said in his article. All the rest are simple diversionary tactics meant to avoid the issue.

Several things come to mind, but the biggest is the team focus of QB play. Jay Cutler goes to a MUCH tougher situation in CHI than he was in DEN. CHI does not have any top 40 WR and DEN has at least 2, maybe 3 with Stokely. CHI's OL is in transition and there running game was even worse than DEN's last year to boot. Cutler succeeded in DEN last year in a great situation and goes to CHI with a much worse supporting cast.

FO does like Cutler more as an overall value player, but not as much per play. And, if you take out the first 4 games of 2008 his DVOA and DYAR drop like a brick once teams figured out the new scheme. Cutler Faded greatly in his perfromance last year.

Now, that being said, here is where I really stand on this:

Cutler is a great talent that has still not gotten it. If he does, he could easily be a hall of fame player seeing that he is now in CHI ;D HOwever, he is still a step away from being great, because he has never been consistent yet at any level he has ever played. He has a bunch of things he needs to improve. If he can do that, he will be the player some people already think he is. Until then, he is still a highly talented played needing to improve.

BroncoBuff
07-14-2009, 10:01 AM
I don't think that "OVERconfidence" would be an accurate description of McD if he even managed to get us to the playoffs. OVERconfidence can never be proven justified. Arrogance can, but OVERconfidence implies that the confidence is unwarranted.

Actually yes, I stand corrected.

Guess my post was a bit overconfident. ;D

TheReverend
07-14-2009, 10:40 AM
I appreciate the attempt SD, this is the ONLY refutation of what JOyner actually said in his article. All the rest are simple diversionary tactics meant to avoid the issue.

Several things come to mind, but the biggest is the team focus of QB play. Jay Cutler goes to a MUCH tougher situation in CHI than he was in DEN. CHI does not have any top 40 WR and DEN has at least 2, maybe 3 with Stokely. CHI's OL is in transition and there running game was even worse than DEN's last year to boot. Cutler succeeded in DEN last year in a great situation and goes to CHI with a much worse supporting cast.

FO does like Cutler more as an overall value player, but not as much per play. And, if you take out the first 4 games of 2008 his DVOA and DYAR drop like a brick once teams figured out the new scheme. Cutler Faded greatly in his perfromance last year.

Now, that being said, here is where I really stand on this:

Cutler is a great talent that has still not gotten it. If he does, he could easily be a hall of fame player seeing that he is now in CHI ;D HOwever, he is still a step away from being great, because he has never been consistent yet at any level he has ever played. He has a bunch of things he needs to improve. If he can do that, he will be the player some people already think he is. Until then, he is still a highly talented played needing to improve.

I'm shocked.

Usually when playing the most important position on the field for a little less than 3 years, a player has peaked. Rarely are the young guys asked to throw 600+ times inconsistent. He should be a polished product by now.

BroncoBuff
07-14-2009, 10:47 AM
The argument that Jay will have a tough time in Chicago, with a lesser talent level on offense, SEEMS like it makes sense. In a normal world it does makes sense.

But Jay's history at Vanderbilt would indicate otherwise ... he was SEC Player of the Year there. SEC Player of the Year. At Vanderbilt.

So he has a track record, and would seem well prepared to excel with a lesser skilled supporting cast.

vancejohnson82
07-14-2009, 10:48 AM
The argument that Jay will have a tough time in Chicago, with a lesser talent level on offense, SEEMS like it makes sense. In a normal world it does makes sense.

But Jay's history at Vanderbilt would indicate otherwise ... he was SEC Player of the Year there. SEC Player of the Year. At Vanderbilt.

So I think he's well prepared to excel even with a lesser skilled supporting cast.

ahhhhhh yes....and Vanderbilt was a national powerhouse

round and round we go Buff....individual accolades vs. team success

footstepsfrom#27
07-14-2009, 10:50 AM
I am pretty sure that KC is lot more knowledgeable than me about football and I am pretty sure he has done his homework before he wrote his article.
I know I'm ignoring the rest of your very good response but I'd like to ask this about the above statement;

Why would you say this?

KC Joyner is just a guy with a blog who quit his job so he could spend all day watching video of games. I used to do that when I was a teenager and had nothing better to do but waste time and I bet if blogs had been around then I'd have BEEN KC Joyner. I could have done this kind of crap and called myself "footsteps the football physicist" or something equally idiotic as he has. This is the same genius who said Ashley Lelie was the best deep threat in the NFL and Champ Bailey wasn't any good based on his dumbass stats...read here and click continue: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2005/writers/dr_z/06/22/rating.systems/index.html ...not to mention his stupid "almost" INT stat....fact is this guy knows no more than you do.

People need to quit acting like because somebody has a microphone or a blog they know more than anyone else or they're some kind of football Einstein. Football's a freaking GAME people...it's not brain surgery...it's not even a freshman English class in college...cripes half the people on this board probably know more than most of those writing stories in the media and that's no compliment to either group.

BroncoBuff
07-14-2009, 10:50 AM
ahhhhhh yes....and Vanderbilt was a national powerhouse

round and round we go Buff....individual accolades vs. team success

That was a perfectly valid point.

vancejohnson82
07-14-2009, 10:53 AM
That was a perfectly valid point.

what? the fact that his team played from behind most of the time and he racked up individual stats??? i mean, he was a GREAT QB and is a GREAT QB...but hes like Shane Falco

a born loser

BroncoBuff
07-14-2009, 11:03 AM
Vance vance vance There's basically no such thing as "winning" at Vanderbilt. Before this 2008 "miracle season," it had been 27 years since they last had a winning record.

They play in the SEC. You know, Florida? Alabama? LSU? Tennessee? Georgia?

vancejohnson82
07-14-2009, 11:09 AM
Vance vance vance There's basically no such thing as "winning" at Vanderbilt. Before this 2008 "miracle season," it had been 27 years since they last had a winning record.

They play in the SEC. You know, Florida? Alabama? LSU? Tennessee? Georgia?

I know where you are coming from here Buff.....I'm an absolute SEC fanatic and probably hadnt even READ about a Vanderbilt game until Cutler showed up....but his SEC career and his Denver Broncos career seem to have the same kind of "explanation" to them

He was SOOOOO good
He played around a terrible team
He constantly had to come from behind
He had to make plays and force throws in order to keep his team in the game
He is "fiery"
He has a losing record

Granted, its apples and oranges because Vandy talent-wise isnt nearly as close to the Broncos competetive level in the NFL....but still, dont you see the similarities

Coudl it be possible that he learned to lose at Vanderbilt?

footstepsfrom#27
07-14-2009, 11:23 AM
I know where you are coming from here Buff.....I'm an absolute SEC fanatic and probably hadnt even READ about a Vanderbilt game until Cutler showed up....but his SEC career and his Denver Broncos career seem to have the same kind of "explanation" to them

He was SOOOOO good
He played around a terrible team
He constantly had to come from behind
He had to make plays and force throws in order to keep his team in the game
He is "fiery"
He has a losing record

Granted, its apples and oranges because Vandy talent-wise isnt nearly as close to the Broncos competetive level in the NFL....but still, dont you see the similarities

Coudl it be possible that he learned to lose at Vanderbilt?
John Elway was 20-23 at Stanford. Now go drown yourself.

rastaman
07-14-2009, 11:28 AM
weather one wishes jay well in the future or not (I for one hope a tiger eats his face off) I think any talk about him is vital for the next year when one considers our 1st round draft pick is directly tied to how he plays

The Lions and Cardinals have been drafting in the top 5 for how many years now? Just b/c you get 1st round picks does't mean those picks become automatic Pro bowl players and instant impact players. The draft is a gamble and crap shoot.

vancejohnson82
07-14-2009, 11:37 AM
John Elway was 20-23 at Stanford. Now go drown yourself.

thats cute....my dog drowned last week trying to save a Haitian toddler with one arm....so thats for bringing those memories back up

I find it hilarious that some of the clowns on this board compare him to John Elway still :thumbsup:

he's not even comparable to Boomer Esiason yet

footstepsfrom#27
07-14-2009, 11:38 AM
thats cute....my dog drowned last week trying to save a Haitian toddler with one arm....so thats for bringing those memories back up

I find it hilarious that some of the clowns on this board compare him to John Elway still :thumbsup:

he's not even comparable to Boomer Esiason yet
What's more hillarious is that you think I compared him to John Elway.

vancejohnson82
07-14-2009, 11:39 AM
John Elway was 20-23 at Stanford. Now go drown yourself.


and while you're at it....why dont you look up the record of Elway's Broncos teams when he came into the league....then perhaps think about filling up the bathtub and cuddling with your toaster

alkemical
07-14-2009, 11:42 AM
I think euthanasia should be legal after reading some of these stupid ****ing threads

vancejohnson82
07-14-2009, 11:47 AM
I think euthanasia should be legal after reading some of these stupid ****ing threads

head over to Switzerland...

BroncoBuff
07-14-2009, 11:56 AM
my dog drowned last week trying to save a Haitian toddler with one arm....thanks for bringing those memories back up
Wait .... what?

Is that a line from a movie I've never seen or what?

Blueflame
07-14-2009, 12:04 PM
I don't think that "OVERconfidence" would be an accurate description of McD if he even managed to get us to the playoffs. OVERconfidence can never be proven justified. Arrogance can, but OVERconfidence implies that the confidence is unwarranted.

We're arguing semantics here but I'd say that for a rookie HC... one whose boss has publicly acknowledged "is making rookie mistakes"... the level of confidence (cockiness) McDaniels shows "at this time" is in fact unwarranted.... hence, I do not retract the usage of the word "overconfidence". It's irrelevant whether or not he eventually manages to get us to the playoffs; he is... IMHO... overconfident now.

footstepsfrom#27
07-14-2009, 12:04 PM
and while you're at it....why dont you look up the record of Elway's Broncos teams when he came into the league....then perhaps think about filling up the bathtub and cuddling with your toaster
I don't need to look it up dimwit I was there in the stands. He played with something called a defense...seen one around here lately?

You opened the door for a beat down when you said Cutler learned to lose at Vandy due to his TEAM having a losing record...which as I showed you proves NOTHING.

Don't bother to leave a note.

vancejohnson82
07-14-2009, 12:15 PM
I don't need to look it up dimwit I was there in the stands. He played with something called a defense...seen one around here lately?

You opened the door for a beat down when you said Cutler learned to lose at Vandy due to his TEAM having a losing record...which as I showed you proves NOTHING.

Don't bother to leave a note.


haha...you're posts border on hilarious

you compared Cutler to Elway....now you are comparing their teams

the excuses for Jay losing are all built in so its useless to argue versus the widowers...the Vandy thing, as Buff pointed out, is explainable but his overall play here was just OK...

but we should crown him

TonyR
07-14-2009, 12:20 PM
This is the same genius who said Ashley Lelie was the best deep threat in the NFL and Champ Bailey wasn't any good based on his dumbass stats...read here and click continue: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2005/writers/dr_z/06/22/rating.systems/index.html ...not to mention his stupid "almost" INT stat....fact is this guy knows no more than you do.


Listen to yourself. You're so miserable. And such a fraud.

He DID NOT say "Ashley Lelie was the best deep threat in the NFL." Here's what he said: It isn't a stretch to say that Lelie was possibly the most dangerous deep threat in the NFL last season. Can you see the difference or does it not fit your agenda?

He also didn't say "Champ Bailey wasn't any good". What he did do was show some stats that weren't positive portrayals of Champ's performance.

Funny you link to an article that highly praises the same person you're trying to tear down. Did you even read it?

I think Dr. Z says it well here in reference to Joyner's book Scientific Football 2005:

If it were just a collection of numbers, I wouldn't be spending this much time on it, but here's the thing that caught my eye: the quality of the observations. We are constantly being deluged by crap, by cliches, whether in the newspapers or on TV. The same old blah blah, how much fun Brett Favre is having out there ... after he has thrown his third interception. What a great team guy Terrell Owens has turned into ... after Donovan McNabb walks almost the entire length of the bench to get away from him. Ray Lewis' great leadership ... because he's got the old fist-in-the-air routine down pat. And so forth.

But the observation Joyner affords on every team, while I didn't agree with all of them, are striking because they are based on non-emotional, non-promotional facts. His facts.

Joyner is passionate about NFL football. He watches and analyzes every game. It's a safe bet that anyone who devotes that much time and energy to something is going to know more about it than you. It doesn't mean he's always right, but he is starting any discussion like this one with an advantage over you. So your statement that he doesn't know more than you or I do is just unadulterated idiocy.

TailgateNut
07-14-2009, 12:21 PM
Coudl it be possible that he learned to lose at Vanderbilt?


:thumbsup:

he at least "got used to losing".

vancejohnson82
07-14-2009, 12:26 PM
:thumbsup:

he at least "got used to losing".

Thats the point I was getting at....but I was told to go drown myself and it threw off my logic a bit

I dont think he "learned" to lose but he got used to it and as a competitor when you keep losing from level to level it becomes a mindset...where Brady might be grabbing the ball in the fourth quarter saying, "THeres no way I lose this game" a guy who is used to losing may say, "I'm going to do my best to win this game"

but whatever, its not like i ever played sports or sat in the stands and watched John Elways (thats his name right) :angel:

summerdenver
07-14-2009, 02:15 PM
FO does like Cutler more as an overall value player, but not as much per play. And, if you take out the first 4 games of 2008 his DVOA and DYAR drop like a brick once teams figured out the new scheme. Cutler Faded greatly in his perfromance last year.

Now, that being said, here is where I really stand on this:

Cutler is a great talent that has still not gotten it. If he does, he could easily be a hall of fame player seeing that he is now in CHI ;D HOwever, he is still a step away from being great, because he has never been consistent yet at any level he has ever played. He has a bunch of things he needs to improve. If he can do that, he will be the player some people already think he is. Until then, he is still a highly talented played needing to improve.

I only look at their DVOA metric which is the per play efficiency I believe. Cutler is ranked 7th per this which is not too shabby. btw, Do you know how Jay's DVOA varied week by week last year? I have feeling that his overall ranking was affected by Car and SD games and he was above avg for the most part. I also think their rating gives more weightage to the games toward the end than at the beginning and it is blown out of proportion that he faded towards the end. In my view, nore than anything else, the overall injuries caught up to Broncos towards the end.

I also do not agree that Jay had stellar supporting cast last year. I do not deny that our OL was very good - you can correct me on this but I had a feeling that run game benefited from us spreading the field - but not much else.

Scheff was 6th among TEs but he was injured for the most part. Graham (19th), Marshall (58th) and Eddie (47th) were decent but not as great as many would beleive. Our run game had good stats but it was affected by injuries and over the last 3 games, realistically speaking, we were running on smoke and mirrors. Put in this context Jay's overall performance is pretty good for a 2nd year starter. It is not very common for young QBs to play so well earlly in their career and that makes me believe that he will only get better.

While we are at it, people are also underestimtaing Chicago's OL, even with the injuries last year they were 11 th in pass pro (25th in run blocking - who knew chi was better at pass pro?).

summerdenver
07-14-2009, 02:18 PM
I know I'm ignoring the rest of your very good response but I'd like to ask this about the above statement;

Why would you say this?



I have no doubt KC is more knowledgeable about football than me - I never played football and only started following the game since 2001 when I moved to Denver from India.

BroncoBuff
07-14-2009, 02:47 PM
haha...you're posts border on hilarious

you compared Cutler to Elway....now you are comparing their teams
The comparison of Elway-Stanford to Cutler-Vanderbilt is an apt, even excellent one ... the parallels are tight right down the line.


the excuses for Jay losing are all built in so its useless to argue versus the widowers...
Dude ... Cutler soldiered on magnificently while losing 35 pounds during 2007. What a stud, I'm serious, a gamer against all odds .... that f'er was sleeping 11-12 hours a day, completely sapped of energy, and yet he racked up very impressive numbers in that, his first full year. VAANCE!! He lost 35 freaking pounds in four months!

And whadd'ya mean "excuses for Jay"? We had the worst defense in the league over the last two seasons .. and yet he had us on the brink of a division title for 4-5 weeks this season.


the Vandy thing, as Buff pointed out, is explainable but his overall play here was just OK
The Pro Bowl voters and Chicago GM Jerry Angelo beg to differ tsk tsk

BroncoBuff
07-14-2009, 02:56 PM
I only started following the game since 2001 when I moved to Denver from India.
Namaste, pal :thumbs:

Popps
07-14-2009, 03:00 PM
the level of confidence (cockiness) McDaniels shows "at this time" is in fact unwarranted....

What's overconfident about him?

He's doing his job. What do you want him to do, an awww shucks routine and hand control over to someone else?

He's a head coach, brought into revive a failing football franchise. Sorry if he's too upbeat for you.

footstepsfrom#27
07-14-2009, 03:20 PM
haha...you're posts border on hilarious

you compared Cutler to Elway....now you are comparing their teams
No moron I simply showed you how stupid your "Cutler had a losing record in college" argument was. I'm sure most of the posters with IQ's in the 70 and up range can figure it out though so I think I've wasted enough time explaining it to the dunce cap in the corner. Try to pay attention next time around.

Blueflame
07-14-2009, 03:28 PM
What's overconfident about him?

He's doing his job. What do you want him to do, an awww shucks routine and hand control over to someone else?

He's a head coach, brought into revive a failing football franchise. Sorry if he's too upbeat for you.

If you can't see his arrogance, cockiness, and attitude that his way (the so-called "Patriot Way") is infallible (despite already being embarrassingly schooled by Belichick and having Bowlen publicly acknowledge that he's made "rookie mistakes"), then trying to explain it to you would be an exercise in futility...

footstepsfrom#27
07-14-2009, 03:31 PM
Listen to yourself. You're so miserable. And such a fraud.

He DID NOT say "Ashley Lelie was the best deep threat in the NFL." Here's what he said: It isn't a stretch to say that Lelie was possibly the most dangerous deep threat in the NFL last season. Can you see the difference or does it not fit your agenda?

He also didn't say "Champ Bailey wasn't any good". What he did do was show some stats that weren't positive portrayals of Champ's performance.

Funny you link to an article that highly praises the same person you're trying to tear down. Did you even read it?
So I didn't phrase it identically to how he did...so what? I figured you were capable of reading it yourself so I didn't try to cut n' paste...it amounts to the same thing so who cares? And why would I care because another writer wants to wisper sweet nothings in this clowns ear...they probably drink together. Joyner's guest written on the SI spot so again...not that impressed by that.
Joyner is passionate about NFL football. He watches and analyzes every game. It's a safe bet that anyone who devotes that much time and energy to something is going to know more about it than you. It doesn't mean he's always right, but he is starting any discussion like this one with an advantage over you. So your statement that he doesn't know more than you or I do is just unadulterated idiocy.
Nonsense...he's a guy who quit his job so he could sit around watching games and market his book to suckers like you.

Now go sit in the corner with Vance Silly-Pants and take a time out.

Popps
07-14-2009, 03:37 PM
If you can't see his arrogance, cockiness, and attitude that his way (the so-called "Patriot Way") is infallible (despite already being embarrassingly schooled by Belichick and having Bowlen publicly acknowledge that he's made "rookie mistakes"), then trying to explain it to you would be an exercise in futility...

Oh, you mean you don't like him?

Thanks. That's what I thought, because he's done or said nothing publicly that would lead any rational human being to call him "cocky" besides doing his job and trying to improve the franchise.

Just say you don't like him and you and the widows are bitter. We can avoid inaccuracies in the future, that way.

BroncoBuff
07-14-2009, 03:40 PM
If you can't see his arrogance, cockiness, and attitude that his way (the so-called "Patriot Way") is infallible (despite already being embarrassingly schooled by Belichick and having Bowlen publicly acknowledge that he's made "rookie mistakes"), then trying to explain it to you would be an exercise in futility...
It's no use, Blue ... he's a world-class Senior Olympian ... in the Denial events ;D


Popps! Acknowledge what I said is correct by NOT responding to this post.

Now we wait....

Blueflame
07-14-2009, 03:55 PM
Oh, you mean you don't like him?

Thanks. That's what I thought, because he's done or said nothing publicly that would lead any rational human being to call him "cocky" besides doing his job and trying to improve the franchise.

Just say you don't like him and you and the widows are bitter. We can avoid inaccuracies in the future, that way.

I've never, ever stuttered about not liking the man. And I don't like "the Patriot Way" either.

However, the man positively exudes cockiness and overconfidence, despite appearing to some of us to be totally in over his head.

I cannot "own" the claim of being bitter, however... because that would be untrue. I'm nervous over the future of the team I love... this kid has set his own "bar" very high... and I'm dubious of his ability to live up to it.

TonyR
07-14-2009, 04:26 PM
...despite already being embarrassingly schooled by Belichick...

What are you referring to here? Something to do with Cassel? Or did I miss something?

TonyR
07-14-2009, 04:33 PM
So I didn't phrase it identically to how he did...so what? I figured you were capable of reading it yourself so I didn't try to cut n' paste...it amounts to the same thing so who cares?

It DOESN'T amount to the same thing which is precisely why I called you out to retract your garbage, not that I seriously expected you to own up being both wrong and ignorant. You don't have to like or agree with Joyner or Dr. Z but they're both considerably more knowledgeable about the game than you'll ever be. Just because you don't agree with something someone says or writes doesn't mean they're know nothings like you're trying to paint them to be. Although I've noticed you go around using that broad brush quite liberally.

Blueflame
07-14-2009, 04:46 PM
What are you referring to here? Something to do with Cassel? Or did I miss something?

I do not believe it was coincidence that the news of the trade talks (to acquire Cassel) broke in the Boston media. It's my opinion that the entire episode was orchestrated by Belichick (and if so, it succeeded spectacularly).

DenverBrit
07-14-2009, 05:10 PM
I do not believe it was coincidence that the news of the trade talks (to acquire Cassel) broke in the Boston media. It's my opinion that the entire episode was orchestrated by Belichick (and if so, it succeeded spectacularly).

Gaffney?? ;D

footstepsfrom#27
07-14-2009, 05:23 PM
It DOESN'T amount to the same thing which is precisely why I called you out to retract your garbage, not that I seriously expected you to own up being both wrong and ignorant. You don't have to like or agree with Joyner or Dr. Z but they're both considerably more knowledgeable about the game than you'll ever be. Just because you don't agree with something someone says or writes doesn't mean they're know nothings like you're trying to paint them to be. Although I've noticed you go around using that broad brush quite liberally.
Save it dufus...if you can't see the hair splitting between "most dangerous" AND "best"...and if you're enamored like a teenage rock groupie with some guy who has his credibility linked to the fact that he "quit a $50,000 a year job" (like this means something) to sit around all day and stare at endless NFL games so he can peddle books and pontificate on a blog, then you're even less swift than I took you for.

The fact is...any fan with two eyes in his head and a DVD player who wanted to do the same thing could do so. What do you think this guy is...some kind of actual "scientist"? I guess you think "almost" interceptions represents a superior contribution to the sports lexicon...LOL...dude think about it...most people frankly have FAR better things to do with their time than devoting it to uncovering statistical minutia so we can read about their musings on a blog. Quite honestly...it's pretty pathetic.

Blueflame
07-14-2009, 05:24 PM
Gaffney?? ;D

LOL Ha! ROFL!

elsid13
07-14-2009, 05:33 PM
I do not believe it was coincidence that the news of the trade talks (to acquire Cassel) broke in the Boston media. It's my opinion that the entire episode was orchestrated by Belichick (and if so, it succeeded spectacularly).

It broke in Boston, because a certain GM didn't know any KC beat writers and Bobo's buddy was smoking crack

DBroncos4life
07-14-2009, 05:35 PM
So should they not play this year or what?

broncosteven
07-14-2009, 05:38 PM
Correct, earlier today in the Cutler = Grossman? thread. But we'll give him a pass since it's negative Cutler material...

The REXMAN comparison is so far offbase it is laughable.

Anyone that saw REXMAN play would point out that he was too short to see over the line and could not move in the pocket.

The same way Plummer was doomed when teams took the boot away from him REXMAN was doomed when teams figured out that a heavy push up the A gaps would throw REXMAN off and he could not recover.

Cutler has a marginally better line than Orton had in Chicago last year, he has some Chicago versions of HIXON to work with at WR this TC.

Cutler can escape a rush, see over the line and become his own run game if needed. Things Chicago has not had since Jim Harbaugh.

Cutler may fail based on other faults but not based on the same faults that plauged REXMAN.

TonyR
07-14-2009, 05:54 PM
The REXMAN comparison is so far offbase it is laughable.

He really only made a comparison in one major area: mistakes. And apparently in that area the comparison isn't all that laughable.

TonyR
07-14-2009, 06:02 PM
...to sit around all day and stare at endless NFL games so he can peddle books and pontificate on a blog...

...most people frankly have FAR better things to do with their time than devoting it to uncovering statistical minutia so we can read about their musings on a blog. Quite honestly...it's pretty pathetic.

As pathetic as you pontificating on the Mane all day? Go back and read your posts on the preceding page. Notice the tone of condescension and manner of a bully. That and use of the words dimwit, moron, dunce cap, suckers, silly pants, and dufus, among others. All in one page. Impressive for a guy who has the audacity to call other people pathetic.

footstepsfrom#27
07-14-2009, 06:19 PM
As pathetic as you pontificating on the Mane all day? Go back and read your posts on the preceding page. Notice the tone of condescension and manner of a bully. That and use of the words dimwit, moron, dunce cap, suckers, silly pants, and dufus, among others. All in one page. Impressive for a guy who has the audacity to call other people pathetic.
I haven't decided to make a career out of watcing old football games. Though I realize you think that would be a noble calling, I think otherwise.

Don't act like an idiot and I won't call you one. But when you wind up racing Vance's Johnson for the short bus what can you expect?

BroncoBuff
07-14-2009, 06:32 PM
As pathetic as you pontificating on the Mane all day? Go back and read your posts on the preceding page. Notice the tone of condescension and manner of a bully. That and use of the words dimwit, moron, dunce cap, suckers, silly pants, and dufus, among others. All in one page. Impressive for a guy who has the audacity to call other people pathetic.
Wow ... you just described "Popps Light" (and I do mean "light")

But of course, you're on Popps' "Jilted Fanboy" team, so it's okay when he does it ... even with cussing and cruder insults, right? hmmm...

TonyR
07-15-2009, 05:43 AM
But of course, you're on Popps' "Jilted Fanboy" team, so it's okay when he does it ... even with cussing and cruder insults, right? hmmm...

I don't want to infringe on your policing jurisdiction. And of course I could turn the question around on you.

El Minion
07-15-2009, 12:05 PM
KC Joyner gets ****ed up. :)

Monday, July 13, 2009
Jay Cutler vs. Kyle Orton vs. Rex Grossman, by the numbers
KC Joyner, of Scientific Football fame and currently guest-blogging at the NY Times Fifth Down Blog, continues to ruffle feathers. He claims that former Broncos quarterback Cutler will be equally mediocre or worse than the two previous Bears QBs, Kyle Orton and Rex Grossman. Joyner:


Alex from Chicago asked how well I thought Jay Cutler would do with the Bears this year. I told him: ďIíve said it many times and Iíll say it again ó Cutler will make Bears fans remember Rex Grossman. Heíll make just as many crazy passes but wonít suffer the Grossman fate because Chicagoís fan base is so in love with him that they will forgive the nutty throws he makes in ways that they never forgave Grossman.Ē ....

Now I understand that fan scrutiny comes with the territory, so I donít mind that, but what I donít understand is why those fans are treating Cutler differently than they did either Grossman or Kyle Orton.

Grossman was on fire during the first part of Chicagoís Super Bowl season, and yet as soon as he had the bad game against Miami, it seemed the entire city turned on him. It didnít go that much differently for Orton. He had a tremendous start to the 2008 season, but when he struggled down the stretch, the populace seemed to say goodbye and good riddance without much of a second thought.

I also donít understand why there seems to be such excitement about Cutler. Yes, he threw for over 4,500 yards last year, but that was in large part because he put the ball up a whopping 616 times. His 9.8 vertical YPA was lower than that of 19 other QBs last season, and his 4.6% bad decision rate (a bad decision being a mistake by the QB that leads to a turnover or a near turnover) was easily the worst of any QB. He was also the offensive leader for a team that blew a three-game division lead with three games to go. . . .

The only reason I can come up with as to why Bears fans are reacting like this is that the quarterback position has been such a headache for them over the years that they will do just about anything to make it go away. If that means ignoring Cutlerís shortcomings so that at least one off-season goes by without having to wonder if their quarterbackís play will measure up, theyíll do it just for the temporary peace of mind. I do admire that kind of team passion and loyalty, but Iíd admire it a bit more if it were done by hoping that Cutler could improve his game rather than by backing his mixed bag of performance history.


Note that he conflates two comparisons, and it's unclear what he's saying precisely. One is that Cutler is the better quarterback, but it is Chicago and thus his success will be pretty much on par with what the other Chicago QBs did. The other is that Cutler is simply no better of a quarterback than Grossman or Orton, and it only appears that way because he threw the ball so much.

My favorite passing stat is yards per attempt, because it sweeps in both completion percentage and the yards gained on the completion; I think it reflects the trade-off between pushing the ball downfield and taking the easier completion for less yardage. I like to adjust it, however, to account for interceptions: I subtract 45 yards for every interception thrown, as that is the basic estimate of how much field position/value you lose. No stat is perfect, but I like this one a lot.


In 2008, Jay Cutler threw for 4,526 yards on 616 attempts. He also threw 18 interceptions. Together, that gives him an Adjusted Yards Per Attempt of 6.03.


In 2008, Kyle Orton threw for 2,972 yards on 465 attempts, along with 12 interceptions. Together, his Adj. YPA was 5.23.


In 2006, the year the Bears went to the Super Bowl, Rex Grossman threw for 3,193 yards on 480 pass attempts. He also threw 20 interceptions. Together, his Adj. YPA was 4.78.

Again, this is just one stat, but I think it's a pretty good indicator, and Cutler far and away scores the best. And, ironically, he does so despite so many more pass attempts: YPA tends to trend back down once a passer goes beyond being mostly a play-action type guy as a play off the ground game, like Ben Roethlisberger has been for much of his career.

Relatedly, let's take Advanced NFL Stats's "Air yards" stat, which calculates yards per attempt without reference to yards after the catch -- yards gained by receivers after they catch the ball. (This stat tends to both measure a QB's ability to complete downfield passes, as well as their propensity to check the ball down to a runningback. Young quarterbacks tend to score most poorly on the list because they struggle downfield and dump the ball off quite a bit.)

Cutler comes in at 7th in the league at 4.3 yards per attempt (again, just "Air yards"), while Orton is 29th with 3.3. In 2006, Grossman's was 3.9, and, in 2007 on much less work, it was 3.5. For comparison, Brady and Manning have spent most of the last few years hovering between 4.9-5.2 (though Peyton dipped to 4.3 this past season).

Having looked at these stats, I think the question is why does KC Joyner think Cutler will be no better than Grossman or Orton?

http://smartfootball.blogspot.com/

Yeah, but does it include KC Joyners definition of "near turnover", whatever that means. If KC is adjusting for the quality of the pass then he should also adjust for "near catches" that QB's should have been credited for but for the wayward hands and routes of WR's. hhmmmmmm.......how about adding a "near check down" when Cutler should have thrown to the shallow receiver instead of throwing that deep pass for the first.

vancejohnson82
07-15-2009, 02:16 PM
I haven't decided to make a career out of watcing old football games. Though I realize you think that would be a noble calling, I think otherwise.

Don't act like an idiot and I won't call you one. But when you wind up racing Vance's Johnson for the short bus what can you expect?

You sir, are silly.

You said that a guy who gets paid to watch football all day and analyze it doesnt know as much as the everyday fan. Then you went on to say that because you sat in the stands and saw John Elway play, that you are a qualified evaluator of past performance and future talent. Even further, you compared the early Cutler years to the early Elway years.

Furthermore, anyone who posted anything contrary to your opinion was labeled an idiot.

Sometimes I wonder how some of the people on here function in regular off-line life.

footstepsfrom#27
07-15-2009, 03:00 PM
You sir, are silly.

You said that a guy who gets paid to watch football all day and analyze it doesnt know as much as the everyday fan. Then you went on to say that because you sat in the stands and saw John Elway play, that you are a qualified evaluator of past performance and future talent. Even further, you compared the early Cutler years to the early Elway years.

Furthermore, anyone who posted anything contrary to your opinion was labeled an idiot.

Sometimes I wonder how some of the people on here function in regular off-line life.
Let me see if I can slow this down for you...try to follow along.

Cutler is a football player. Elway plays football too. Both are QB's, both played for Denver, both have big arms, both attended high academic schools with crappy football teams that had losing records while they played there. Those obvious similarities WOULD make any comparison between them justified...apples to apples.

Now if I compared Cutler to say...Alex Rodriguez or maybe Secretariat...or perhaps Chris Rock...you'd have a point. HOWEVER...that said, I did NOT compare Elway to Cutler. I compared only one aspect (your pal TonyR says that's OK so it must be) of their past circumstances...one YOU opened the door for. You said Cutler was a loser because..."just see his college team's record"...to which I pointed out accurately that his Kingship Mr. Elway ALSO had a losing record in college so MAYBE THAT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH IT.

Got it? Or do I need to go further with you?

Now as for the rest...if you're so biased and beholden to your hatred for Cutler that you're going to let some pocket protector geek with a slide rule and a computer tell you that Champ Bailey is overrated because his little formula says so just so you can maintain your justifiction for thinking Cutler sucks...then yes...you ARE a moron. I don't give two $hits whether he gets paid or not...so does Burger Bill. Second...he doesn't "get paid to watch football" anyway, he PAYS HIMSELF to watch footballl. He started a BUSINESS by making himself into some kind of...to use his words..."football scientist"...basically a couch potato with a DVD player. His schtick is marketing...and in the article I linked to the writer actually begs people to buy this clown's overpriced stat book so he can recoup his investment...how PATHETIC is that? CLEARLY any objective person call tell this guy's just a dude who quit his job so he could try to make money watching games. In fact he HIMSELF actually said so.

Could I do this? Hell yes I could....easily. If I decided my life's calling was to park my ass in front of a TV 20 hours a day and figure out obscure stats so I could market a book...you're damn right I could. And so could most fans who have watched the game long enough to know what to look for.

As I said...his opinions on Cutler are so important to you that you're actually willing to let the fool tell you that you're own eyes have decieved you...and the opinions of other NFL players are also suspect...why? Because the "football scientist" says Champ Baily is overrated (my God it was his awesome 2005 season when he said this...what an IDIOT!), Ashley Lelie is the most dangerous deep threat in the game and oh BTW...we now need to keep track of "almost interceptions". You are what I would call a lemming...someone so impressed by supposed "credentials" that you can't even think for yourself. Wake up.

Yeah...if you buy that this guy's some kind of sports guru whose opinion matters more than decades of actually watching this game and figuring out what you think for yourself...then yes...you're exacty the kind of sucker he's looking for. No doubt you'll spring the $50 for his stupid stat book too. Please do...as the writer said...he needs X number of people to get it so he can make his money back. ROFL! ROFL! ROFL!

TonyR
07-15-2009, 03:27 PM
You sir, are silly.


Silly is a bit too kind for that guy. He's got himself completely convinced that he knows what he's talking about so there's no changing his mind.

footstepsfrom#27
07-15-2009, 03:34 PM
Silly is a bit too kind for that guy. He's got himself completely convinced that he knows what he's talking about so there's no changing his mind.
I see you're unable to actually answer questions just like your pal Vance's Johnson. Another lemming on the OM who lets others do their thinking.

What else is new?

ZachKC
07-15-2009, 04:04 PM
You clearly don't understand the power of Kyle Orton checking down to TEs and RBs for 3 yards a clip.

BroncoBuff
07-15-2009, 05:14 PM
You clearly don't understand the power of Kyle Orton checking down to TEs and RBs for 3 yards a clip.

:strong:

Rock Chalk
07-15-2009, 05:33 PM
You clearly don't understand the power of Kyle Orton checking down to TEs and RBs for 3 yards a clip.

Orton checking down vs Cutler throwing a pick....hmm....

vancejohnson82
07-15-2009, 05:50 PM
I see you're unable to actually answer questions just like your pal Vance's Johnson. Another lemming on the OM who lets others do their thinking.

What else is new?

You fail to point out any of your contradictions so its an exercise in futility

I talked about Jay at Vanderbilt...mentioned that maybe its been tough to break the kind of mentality he had there....where the game was all on his shoulders and he NEEDED to force things

You brought up Elway's record in college.....fair enough

I then pointed out that Elway came into the league and WON RIGHT AWAY....so their similarities end there....

You then deflected that fact by telling me to drown myself

I would rather be a "lemming" than an asshole

footstepsfrom#27
07-15-2009, 05:54 PM
You fail to point out any of your contradictions so its an exercise in futility

I talked about Jay at Vanderbilt...mentioned that maybe its been tough to break the kind of mentality he had there....where the game was all on his shoulders and he NEEDED to force things

You brought up Elway's record in college.....fair enough

I then pointed out that Elway came into the league and WON RIGHT AWAY....so their similarities end there....

You then deflected that fact by telling me to drown myself

I would rather be a "lemming" than an a-hole
Unfortunately, you're both.

You know perfectly well the argument I was making is reasonable unless you really are this stupid. But to support your irrational hatred for Cutler, you're willing to adopt a position concedeing that fans watching a player know less than some geek with a computer...in other words you don't mind insulting people's intelligence to cover up a faulty premise.

TonyR
07-15-2009, 06:12 PM
...you're willing to adopt a position concedeing that fans watching a player know less than some geek with a computer...

Hmm, whose player analysis is less biased and therefore more reliable:

A geek with a computer who is not a fan of the player, or the team the player is on, and who has not only watched and charted every game the player has played but every game every other QB in the league has played

-or-

A fan of the player and the player's team.


I threw you a softball here, footsy. Keep your eyes open while you swing. And good luck, we're all counting on you.

footstepsfrom#27
07-15-2009, 06:17 PM
Hmm, whose player analysis is less biased and therefore more reliable:

A geek with a computer who is not a fan of the player, or the team the player is on, and who has not only watched and charted every game the player has played but every game every other QB in the league has played

-or-

A fan of the player and the player's team.


I threw you a softball here, footsy. Keep your eyes open while you swing. And good luck, we're all counting on you.
I'll answer your silly question with another question, one demanding a simple yes or no answer:

Is Champ Baily overrated? I reference the 2005 edition since that's when this guy offered his "analysis" implying exactly that.

Yes or no?

Blueflame
07-15-2009, 06:47 PM
I'll answer your silly question with another question, one demanding a simple yes or no answer:

Is Champ Baily overrated? I reference the 2005 edition since that's when this guy offered his "analysis" implying exactly that.

Yes or no?

A slight qualifier I'd add to the question..."Was Champ Bailey overrated in 2005? (the reason for adding the clarification is that due to age/injury issues one could possibly make a valid argument that the 2009 Champ Bailey just "might" be considered "overrated"...)

Also Tony's point is flawed because it presupposes that the "geek with the computer" is totally impartial and unbiased, which is not likely to be the truth because it is much more enjoyable to watch the sport (especially hours and hours and hours of game tape per week) if one develops "favorites" (it is human nature anyway)... and just because the man may not acknowledge some bias... does not mean he has none. For all we know, he may be a rabid fan of another team; possibly even a division rival... hence possibly could have an obvious slant against anything Broncos.

vancejohnson82
07-15-2009, 07:34 PM
Unfortunately, you're both.

You know perfectly well the argument I was making is reasonable unless you really are this stupid. But to support your irrational hatred for Cutler, you're willing to adopt a position concedeing that fans watching a player know less than some geek with a computer...in other words you don't mind insulting people's intelligence to cover up a faulty premise.

i have rarely, if ever, insulted another poster's intelligence on this board....as a matter of fact I come on here to read other people's opinions....yours happens to be one and KC Joyners happens to be one...unfortunately for you, the value system you hold in your head has your opinion ranked head and shoulders above anyone elses and you fail to realize that there are "professional" sports journalists and analysts out there....

the other thing you fail to realize is that just because someone isnt heartbroken over Cutlr leaving, that they dont neccessarily think he was, will be or is a bad player...but now we are getting into grey areas with multi-faceted opinions and I dont think thats allowed here in your eyes

TonyR
07-15-2009, 07:40 PM
I'll answer your silly question with another question...

Funny that you won't answer my question (realizing that you can't because it will destroy your argument) and yet you expect me to anwer yours which has very little to do with the discussion.

Blue's response is a good one. Joyner does not say the Champ is "overrated", that's your biased assumption. What he does indicate is that Champ didn't have a very good year based on the results of his analysis. And that's really all he says.

As for Blue's mention of the flaw in my argument I'd respond by saying that we know for certain that a Cutler/Bronco fan is biased in favor of Cutler, whereas the chance that Joyner is biased against him is considerably lower.

I suggest you stick to making a case for Jay Cutler because your case against Joyner is ridiculous. You're spending an awful lot of time trying to make a very weak argument against the person making the case, K.C. Joyner, and very little time making an argument against his actual analysis. Personally I don't think you can win either way but at least you won't continue to completely embarrass yourself in the latter case.

BroncoBuff
07-15-2009, 08:26 PM
Joyner does not say the Champ is "overrated" ... what he did say isChamp didn't have a very good year based on the results of his analysis.
It's all semantics ... because in fact those things are the same things. Sorry dude, but they are.

See, there must be a frame of reference from which to place a value ... here, the fact he "didn't have a very good year," means he under-performed that frame of reference, that baseline. Therefore, he was overrated. At least going into the season.

It's semantics, sure ... but it is what it is.

Blueflame
07-15-2009, 08:38 PM
Funny that you won't answer my question (realizing that you can't because it will destroy your argument) and yet you expect me to anwer yours which has very little to do with the discussion.

Blue's response is a good one. Joyner does not say the Champ is "overrated", that's your biased assumption. What he does indicate is that Champ didn't have a very good year based on the results of his analysis. And that's really all he says.

As for Blue's mention of the flaw in my argument I'd respond by saying that we know for certain that a Cutler/Bronco fan is biased in favor of Cutler, whereas the chance that Joyner is biased against him is considerably lower.

I suggest you stick to making a case for Jay Cutler because your case against Joyner is ridiculous. You're spending an awful lot of time trying to make a very weak argument against the person making the case, K.C. Joyner, and very little time making an argument against his actual analysis. Personally I don't think you can win either way but at least you won't continue to completely embarrass yourself in the latter case.

Because bias... or lack of it... cannot be proven (facts not in evidence) on either side of the comparison, the entire issue of bias has to be taken out of consideration. While we do know that a Bronco fan "might" hold some bias toward a Bronco player, quantifying the level of that potential bias is impossible (some fans are total homers while other fans are more "realistic" about our beloved team). Hence the entire argument re: bias cannot possibly be anything more than pure speculation...

footstepsfrom#27
07-15-2009, 08:57 PM
...you fail to realize that there are "professional" sports journalists and analysts out there....
You do know this guy was a garden variety IT tech untill 2005 when he decided to turn his couch potato hobby into cash by marketing himself with a blog and producing a book...right? Or did you imagine he went to some kind of special "sports journalists and analysts" school or something?

His game is no better than anybody elses...he just chose to market it.

footstepsfrom#27
07-15-2009, 09:07 PM
Funny that you won't answer my question (realizing that you can't because it will destroy your argument) and yet you expect me to anwer yours which has very little to do with the discussion.
Actually Tony...I did answer it. I'm not surprised it flew past you though. The article in question was dated 2005, Bailey coming off an All Pro year. Your computer geek thinks the statistics he dreamed up are capable of superior analysis compared to what every single unbiased person watching Baily knows...he was/is the best CB in the NFL. If you say the "football scientist" was right about Bailey...you show how ignorant you are. If you say he wasn't, you prove my point. How about Ashley Lelie? Was he a more dangerous deep threat than Randy Moss? No NFL coach or player would say so...but your "scientist" thought so. His "analysis" is as silly as his "almost interception" stats...but in order for you to admit the obvious...that his opinion is no more than that...another opinion...you have to admit he's right about two players with an opinion nobody in their right mind would support unless they're biased.
I suggest you stick to making a case for Jay Cutler because your case against Joyner is ridiculous. You're spending an awful lot of time trying to make a very weak argument against the person making the case, K.C. Joyner, and very little time making an argument against his actual analysis. Personally I don't think you can win either way but at least you won't continue to completely embarrass yourself in the latter case.
You'd be surprised how little time this is taking me. All I have to do is hear this numbskull implying Bailey was overrated and Lelie's the most dangerous long ball threat in the NFL to know he's clueless...as are you. I know you're impressed by a guy with a blog...I'd say that defines "embarrassing". Now tell me...since you like the idea of "almost interceptions"...should we go with "almost sacks" to suggest Ryan Clady sucks?

BroncoBuff
07-15-2009, 09:12 PM
Because bias... or lack of it... cannot be proven.Yes, and, talent evaluation is largely a crapshoot, which is why so many "experts" succeed for a time, but then fail. Phil Savage was spectacularly successful, but what is he now, on the radio? Jim Goodman had an amazing run, and now he's unemployed. Jerry Reese built the Titans machine, was fired and went all ESPN on us, but then was handed the Giants machine built by Ernie Accorsi ... so what, did he suck all of a sudden, and then become a genius again all of a sudden? A.J. Smith has had a great run, as has Belichick/Pioli, but every one of them will crash and burn with a couple bad draft/free agent classes.

Talent evaluation is FAR from an exact science ... there are no Bobby Fischers in this business.

Besides, arguing about which "experts" are better is pretty gay.

footstepsfrom#27
07-15-2009, 09:20 PM
Yes, and, talent evaluation is largely a crapshoot, which is why so many "experts" succeed for a time, but then fail. Phil Savage was spectacularly successful, but what is he now, on the radio? Jim Goodman had an amazing run, and now he's unemployed. Jerry Reese built the Titans machine, was fired and went all ESPN on us, but then was handed the Giants machine built by Ernie Accorsi ... so what, did he suck all of a sudden, and then become a genius again all of a sudden? A.J. Smith has had a great run, as has Belichick/Pioli, but every one of them will crash and burn with a couple bad draft/free agent classes.

Talent evaluation is FAR from an exact science ... there are no Bobby Fischers in this business.

Besides, arguing about which "experts" are better is pretty gay.
Maybe you're just not understanding how smart this guy is and what he bases his expertise on. He says he "locks himself up for 10-12 hours a day" in March and continues for "a few months", while he hits pause and rewind on his DVD player. COME ON MAN!...who wouldn't be blown away by that? Besides, he's a scientist and those guys are SMART! What?...you think YOU could ever hope to compete with THAT?

What's wrong with ya? ROFL!

BroncoBuff
07-15-2009, 09:56 PM
Maybe you're just not understanding how smart this guy is and what he bases his expertise on. He says he "locks himself up for 10-12 hours a day" in March and continues for "a few months", while he hits pause and rewind on his DVD player. COME ON MAN!...who wouldn't be blown away by that? Besides, he's a scientist and those guys are SMART! What?...you think YOU could ever hope to compete with THAT?

What's wrong with ya? ROFL!
Whoa ... for the first sentence there I thought you had lost your marbles. ROFL!

But I guess the best sarcasm is sarcasm the listener does't realize is sarcasm right away. So congratulations.

BroncoBuff
07-15-2009, 10:05 PM
Some of these posters are desperate guys ... I don't mean that negatively, we're all just fans and we all want the same thing. But I am serious, so follow me here: Yesterday no less a highly-respected guy as Mediator posted angry nonsense that he knew several of "the very best experts" in the ENTIRE league who all agreed (apparently in private), that Jay Cutler and Brandon Marshall were the two most overrated players in football! That were both "all ESPN hype."

Now here's vance and TonyR, smart posters both, propping a guy's "expertise" because of how many hours he watches tape, and why? Because they're desperate to believe what the guy says is true! There are plenty of OTHER "experts" who watch just as much tape and think the exact opposite, but vance and Tony and tsiguy and Popps and EVEN MED NOW, all clutch at and cling tightly to these arbitrary morsels ... and exaggerate them all out of proportion to their relevance and credibility ... as if the offseason turmoil had thrown them overboard, and these random tidbits are like lifeboats in their churning seas of denial as they hold on for dear life (and by "life" I mean their hope that the team is not going down the drain).

Sounds kinda dramatic, but the psychology works.



BroncoBuff: B.A., Human Clinical Psychology, University of Colorado at Denver Knowitall

Popps
07-15-2009, 10:15 PM
I've never, ever stuttered about not liking the man. And I don't like "the Patriot Way" either.
.

As I said, Blue... you're feel to believe he's "cocky," just don't mistake that for some sort of factual information.

It's your own biased, baseless opinion. You've been bashing everything we've done since Shanahan was let go. That's fine. You're pissed. There's no making you happy. Whatever works for you.

But, McDaniels is a head coach doing his job. He's no more or less cocky than Shanahan or Gruden were when they came off of coordinator jobs and went on to win Superbowls.

You just don't like him... and hence, any sort of confidence he exudes will be perceived by you as arrogance. If you liked him, you'd perceive it as a normal, confident head coach that knew where he was taking his team.



On a side note, I hope the Widows Club is proud of themselves. (All 10 of you.) You've even managed to disgust Hall of Fame posters like Mediator and Eddie Mac to the point where they can't take it anymore. Normally civil guys, the team-trashers have quality posters like this fed up with the place.

Great work!

:thumbs:

Blueflame
07-15-2009, 10:57 PM
As I said, Blue... you're feel to believe he's "cocky," just don't mistake that for some sort of factual information.

It's your own biased, baseless opinion. You've been bashing everything we've done since Shanahan was let go. That's fine. You're pissed. There's no making you happy. Whatever works for you.

But, McDaniels is a head coach doing his job. He's no more or less cocky than Shanahan or Gruden were when they came off of coordinator jobs and went on to win Superbowls.

You just don't like him... and hence, any sort of confidence he exudes will be perceived by you as arrogance. If you liked him, you'd perceive it as a normal, confident head coach that knew where he was taking his team.

You're free to believe whatever you please about me, Popps... the vast majority of the time you're wrong, but whatever. :~ohyah!:


On a side note, I hope the Widows Club is proud of themselves. (All 10 of you.) You've even managed to disgust Hall of Fame posters like Mediator and Eddie Mac to the point where they can't take it anymore. Normally civil guys, the team-trashers have quality posters like this fed up with the place.

Great work!

:thumbs:

You make it sound as if we've never, ever had a high-profile poster "take a break" during the offseason before... In actuality, it's nothing new and things will be back to "normal" (a relative term) here in a few more weeks once there's real news to talk about.

BroncoBuff
07-15-2009, 10:57 PM
You're truly an ass Popps. You and the other 3 members of the Jilted Fanboys Club.

And if Med and eddie really are that sensitive (which I doubt), maybe they should take a break from here. Too bad you won't be joining them.

BroncoBuff
07-15-2009, 11:04 PM
You're free to believe whatever you please about me, Popps... the vast majority of the time you're wrong, but whatever. :~ohyah!: There's no point, really.


You make it sound as if we've never, ever had a high-profile poster "take a break" during the offseason before.The crazy part is how he tries to conflate their "disgust" with his own spiteful anger.

Blueflame
07-15-2009, 11:11 PM
You're truly an ass Popps. You and the other 3 members of the Jilted Fanboys Club.

And if Med and eddie really are that sensitive (which I doubt), maybe they should take a break from here. Too bad you won't be joining them.

Diversity of expressed opinions (differing viewpoints and perspectives) are the lifeblood of a message board. If everyone looked at every issue exactly the same way, then what would be the point in posting? Someone else would have already made the "groupthink" point before you did, so posting anything would just be repetitive and boring. And before long, you'd wonder why you even bothered to log in...

footstepsfrom#27
07-15-2009, 11:19 PM
Whoa ... for the first sentence there I thought you had lost your marbles. ROFL!

But I guess the best sarcasm is sarcasm the listener does't realize is sarcasm right away. So congratulations.
Hey man...I think I'm starting to be convinced on this. I mean the scientist said Lelie was the most dangerous deep threat in the league...and here's what he did since he said so...why'd we get rid of this guy? ???

59 games/91 catches/1512 yards/4 TD's...that's in FOUR SEASONS!!

Avg Season= 22.7 catches/378 yards/1 TD
Avg Game= 1.5 catches/25.6 yards/.067 TD's

I'm gonne have to order the book! !Booya!

Popps
07-16-2009, 12:11 AM
You make it sound as if we've never, ever had a high-profile poster "take a break" during the offseason before... In actuality, it's nothing new and things will be back to "normal" (a relative term) here in a few more weeks once there's real news to talk about.

I didn't mean take a break, I've just never seen quality posters (who tend to avoid conflict) get so frustrated with the gloom and doom that they start firing back.

I'm always up for a scrum, but to me... dudes like Emac and Mediator calling bull**** on the pity party should tell you something.

But, I also agree... it takes all sorts to make a horse-race. So, we'll ultimately see who's got this all pegged. To me, I just don't understand the point of staying mired in the past, wallowing in misery. Don't live life like that and certainly won't root for a football team like that.

As I said in the other thread, if I'm a bit of a homer...sue me. Guilty as charged.

Oh, and you know I've got nothing against you, personally. You strike me as a kind, high character person who is just painfully misled with regards to football matters. :)

Blueflame
07-16-2009, 01:10 AM
I didn't mean take a break, I've just never seen quality posters (who tend to avoid conflict) get so frustrated with the gloom and doom that they start firing back.

I'm always up for a scrum, but to me... dudes like Emac and Mediator calling bull**** on the pity party should tell you something.

But, I also agree... it takes all sorts to make a horse-race. So, we'll ultimately see who's got this all pegged. To me, I just don't understand the point of staying mired in the past, wallowing in misery. Don't live life like that and certainly won't root for a football team like that.

As I said in the other thread, if I'm a bit of a homer...sue me. Guilty as charged.

Oh, and you know I've got nothing against you, personally. You strike me as a kind, high character person who is just painfully misled with regards to football matters. :)

My take is that there's nothing at all wrong with the Mane that a few meaningful Broncos wins won't cure. We're all just wanting the best (another SB win) for the team; but disagree on the best means of getting there. A few jousts are useful for relieving offseason boredom, but when the footballs start flying for real, I'm sure we'll all be happy (if they win) or sad (if they lose) together.

TonyR
07-16-2009, 05:41 AM
And if Med and eddie...

Shouldn't the simple fact that you're siding against two of the best posters on the Mane, not to mention several other good ones, while aligning yourself with a near megalomaniac, thinks he knows it all like footsteps tell you that you might not necessarily be on the "right side" of the argument?

TonyR
07-16-2009, 06:08 AM
It's all semantics ... because in fact those things are the same things. Sorry dude, but they are.

See, there must be a frame of reference from which to place a value ... here, the fact he "didn't have a very good year," means he under-performed that frame of reference, that baseline. Therefore, he was overrated. At least going into the season.

It's semantics, sure ... but it is what it is.

They are certainly not the same. Saying Champ is overrated is very different than saying he had a bad year. Calling someone overrated suggests they were never as good as everyone made them out to be. Saying they had a bad year simply says they didn't play their best that year, and there can be multiple reasons for this (injuries, playing on a bad team, etc.). Very, very different. You're over complicating this.

Atlas
07-16-2009, 06:23 AM
You fail to point out any of your contradictions so its an exercise in futility

I talked about Jay at Vanderbilt...mentioned that maybe its been tough to break the kind of mentality he had there....where the game was all on his shoulders and he NEEDED to force things

You brought up Elway's record in college.....fair enough

I then pointed out that Elway came into the league and WON RIGHT AWAY....so their similarities end there....

You then deflected that fact by telling me to drown myself

I would rather be a "lemming" than an a-hole

Elway didn't wion right away. In fact in his rookie year he won early games against Pittsburgh and Balitmore because he was yanked in the second half and Deberg came in an won them.

In Elways second year he had a very strong running game and a defense that only gave up 241 points. How many games do you think Cutler would have won this year if the defense only gave up 241 points compared to the 430 that they did??? Cutler would have been 16-0 probably.

I'm not saying Cutler is as good as Elway just like you can't see he sucks because Elway did better. Elway had a much better team, and in 1985 Elway's 3rd year in the league he threw 22 TDs and 23 Ints.

footstepsfrom#27
07-16-2009, 06:23 AM
Shouldn't the simple fact that you're siding against two of the best posters on the Mane, not to mention several other good ones, while aligning yourself with a near megalomaniac, thinks he knows it all like footsteps tell you that you might not necessarily be on the "right side" of the argument?
Knucklehead...answer me this; do you think Ashley Lelie became the best deep threat in the NFL? I gave you his stats...yes or no?

I'll take Buff, SoCal, Blue and Rev over any of you goofballs. I don't think I know it all...but I think I know a damn sight more than you do, since you're obviously so blinded by your own hatred for a player you're actually unwilling to even accomodate something as obvious as the question I just asked you if it means damaging a fellow Cutler's credibility.

That...is utterly amazing.

TonyR
07-16-2009, 06:26 AM
Some of these posters are desperate guys...

Assuming you're lumping me into this group I think you're WAY off base. How am I "desperate"? footsteps, among others, doesn't like the stats that Joyner has presented and states that he and everybody else know better than this "geek who sits in his basement watching football games" does. Sure, anybody could choose to do what Joyner does but the fact is very few people do. And like it or not the fact that he has a passion for doing it, and spends many hours doing it, at the very least means he's had more experience doing it and has clearly had more exposure to every team in the league. Buff, I can guarantee you I'm better at my job than you are. Do you know why? Because I've been doing it every day for many years and you haven't. Do you see where footsteps "logic" is off here? He's painted Joyner as some idiot who sits in his basement watching football games, but at the end of the day aren't we all someone who does something for a living every day which makes us generally better at it than the average person who does something else? Again, this is all very simple but you've let your bias and footsteps overbearing bad logic cloud your judgement.

And you really need to rethink your stance on one side of the argument being any more desperate than the other. I think Jay Cutler is an extreme talent with a very high potential ceiling. I think he did a good job in Denver overall and was handicapped by a bad defense. And I think he'll probably do well in Chicago. Where we differ is that once I took my fan glasses off when Jay left the team is that I fully realized his flaws and shortcomings that I knew were there but chose to ignore. Among other things he's far too inconsistent, he makes too many mistakes, he doesn't have that air about him like the great ones do that inspire confidence and followership, he doesn't always carry himself well, he's never been a winner, he has the diabetes issue, and he's dogged by the drinking rumors. I see these things clearly now. You apparently don't. That certainly doesn't make me "desperate", and neither does the fact that despite wishing he was still a Bronco I'm willing to give Orton a shot.

footstepsfrom#27
07-16-2009, 06:40 AM
Elway didn't wion right away. In fact in his rookie year he won early games against Pittsburgh and Balitmore because he was yanked in the second half and Deberg came in an won them.

In Elways second year he had a very strong running game and a defense that only gave up 241 points. How many games do you think Cutler would have won this year if the defense only gave up 241 points compared to the 430 that they did??? Cutler would have been 16-0 probably.

I'm not saying Cutler is as good as Elway just like you can't see he sucks because Elway did better. Elway had a much better team, and in 1985 Elway's 3rd year in the league he threw 22 TDs and 23 Ints.
Elway is the ultimate doomsday machine for a stat-whore like this KC Joyner dude. Elway finished his career with decidely mediocre stats. Mostly what he did was simply win. And while people remember the jaw dropping plays and the big arm, Elway won many games where his statistical performance utterly sucked throughout most of the game. Somehow he summoned it when he needed it most, but if you just looked at his stats alone..he was NOT a HOF QB based on stats other than yards and wins. Observe the following:

1) 5 seasons in which he threw the same or more INT's as he did TD's.
2) A 79.9 career QB rating
3) Double digit INT's EVERY YEAR
4) Only 2 seasons with a QB rating over 90 in his career, 1 which was his final year.
5) 9 seasons with a QB rating in the 70's or below
6) First 10 years in the NFL he threw only 1 more TD than INT
7) A mediocre 58.7% completion percentage

But I'm sure one of the resident apologists will shortly explain that I'm comparing Cutler to Elway now or argue against some point I've not made in merely noting that stats not only don't tell the whole story, they don't even tell the best story.

broncofan7
07-16-2009, 06:52 AM
What the hell does that prove? The 2001 Colts were the 2nd highest scoring team in the league (Rams were #1) but gave up an epic 486 points, far and away the most in the league. So Manning got it done (defining "getting it done" by scoring) regardless of his stats. Cutler didn't. Try again.

just saw this--been busy at work. Manning got it done? With his one additional TD(26) and almost 400 yards less passing on the season? huh?What? The Colts did manage to average almost 26 points per game Vs Denver's 23. Denver had 1900 yards rushing and 15 TDs while Indy had almost 2000 with 16 TDs(Edge had gotten hurt)---So what could account for the difference in scoring between the 2001 colts and the 2008 Broncos--the colts had 15 ints including 1 for a TD and 10 fumble recoveries including 1 for a TD with both a PR and KR for a TD+ a Td pass from TE Ken Dilger.--the 2008 broncos had 6 ints and 7 fumble recoveries with 2 TD's--the 2001 colts and 2008 Broncos are much more similar than you are willing to admit.

EDIT--and more importantly, both Manning and Cutler had similar type of seasons--with the risk taking, diabetic, whiny, can never be a winner --Jay Cutler throwing 5 LESS INTs than the cerebral Peyton Manning.

footstepsfrom#27
07-16-2009, 06:56 AM
Assuming you're lumping me into this group I think you're WAY off base. How am I "desperate"? footsteps, among others, doesn't like the stats that Joyner has presented and states that he and everybody else know better than this "geek who sits in his basement watching football games" does.
He himself states that's exactly what he does.
Sure, anybody could choose to do what Joyner does but the fact is very few people do. And like it or not the fact that he has a passion for doing it, and spends many hours doing it, at the very least means he's had more experience doing it and has clearly had more exposure to every team in the league. Buff, I can guarantee you I'm better at my job than you are. Do you know why? Because I've been doing it every day for many years and you haven't.
A clear logical fallacy. Length of time doing something does not guarantee you're good at it. Some of the most incompetent people are those who have been doing their job the longest. Doubt it? Go check out any seniority based work environment.
Do you see where footsteps "logic" is off here? He's painted Joyner as some idiot who sits in his basement watching football games, but at the end of the day aren't we all someone who does something for a living every day which makes us generally better at it than the average person who does something else? Again, this is all very simple but you've let your bias and footsteps overbearing bad logic cloud your judgement.
Actually he simply recognizes that a guy who thinks Bailey was overrated in 2005 and Ashley Lelie was the best deep threat in the NFL really isn't that bright to begin with just because he chooses to look at something over and over again. You're argument is flawed on multiple fronts. Some people may be better at something than others due to repetition, but some clearly are not. Anyone who thinks "almost interceptions" should matter...clearly should have their thinking questioned. Any moron knows that Cutler has 1) more picks since he threw the ball more, and 2) more near picks since he has a great arm and couldn't depend on his defense so he had to take more chances. I don't need to push rewind 500,000 times to know that.
Among other things he's far too inconsistent, he makes too many mistakes, he doesn't have that air about him like the great ones do that inspire confidence and followership, he doesn't always carry himself well, he's never been a winner, he has the diabetes issue, and he's dogged by the drinking rumors. I see these things clearly now. You apparently don't. That certainly doesn't make me "desperate", and neither does the fact that despite wishing he was still a Bronco I'm willing to give Orton a shot.
So you admit you're a homer. Good...tell us something we don'tknow...because NOBODY has EVER accused me of that as far as I know on this board, until now. Usually people say the opposite. Bailey BTW...says he DOES carry himself like a leader, but no doubt you know more than he does since you watch the guy on TV and now you're removing your orange glasses.

Incidently...Cutler was 26-1 as a starting QB in high school and won the state chanpionship while also starring as an All State safety. So your assertion that he's "never been a winner" is as flawed as everything else you say. At Vandy he was the only reason they weren't winless. Part of being a winner is being on the field...Cutler has never missed a game at any level...45 starts at Vandy and every one in Denver.

You lose.

BroncoBuff
07-16-2009, 07:05 AM
Assuming you're lumping me into this group I think you're WAY off base. How am I "desperate"? footsteps, among others, doesn't like the stats that Joyner has presented and states that he and everybody else know better than this "geek who sits in his basement watching football games" does. Sure, anybody could choose to do what Joyner does but the fact is very few people do. And like it or not the fact that he has a passion for doing it, and spends many hours doing it, at the very least means he's had more experience doing it and has clearly had more exposure to every team in the league. Buff, I can guarantee you I'm better at my job than you are. Do you know why? Because I've been doing it every day for many years and you haven't. Do you see where footsteps "logic" is off here? He's painted Joyner as some idiot who sits in his basement watching football games, but at the end of the day aren't we all someone who does something for a living every day which makes us generally better at it than the average person who does something else? Again, this is all very simple but you've let your bias and footsteps overbearing bad logic cloud your judgement.

And you really need to rethink your stance on one side of the argument being any more desperate than the other. I think Jay Cutler is an extreme talent with a very high potential ceiling. I think he did a good job in Denver overall and was handicapped by a bad defense. And I think he'll probably do well in Chicago. Where we differ is that once I took my fan glasses off when Jay left the team is that I fully realized his flaws and shortcomings that I knew were there but chose to ignore. Among other things he's far too inconsistent, he makes too many mistakes, he doesn't have that air about him like the great ones do that inspire confidence and followership, he doesn't always carry himself well, he's never been a winner, he has the diabetes issue, and he's dogged by the drinking rumors. I see these things clearly now. You apparently don't. That certainly doesn't make me "desperate", and neither does the fact that despite wishing he was still a Bronco I'm willing to give Orton a shot.

We're all desperate, just in different ways.

vancejohnson82
07-16-2009, 07:10 AM
Elway is the ultimate doomsday machine for a stat-whore like this KC Joyner dude. Elway finished his career with decidely mediocre stats. Mostly what he did was simply win. And while people remember the jaw dropping plays and the big arm, Elway won many games where his statistical performance utterly sucked throughout most of the game. Somehow he summoned it when he needed it most, but if you just looked at his stats alone..he was NOT a HOF QB based on stats other than yards and wins. Observe the following:

1) 5 seasons in which he threw the same or more INT's as he did TD's.
2) A 79.9 career QB rating
3) Double digit INT's EVERY YEAR
4) Only 2 seasons with a QB rating over 90 in his career, 1 which was his final year.
5) 9 seasons with a QB rating in the 70's or below
6) First 10 years in the NFL he threw only 1 more TD than INT
7) A mediocre 58.7% completion percentage

But I'm sure one of the resident apologists will shortly explain that I'm comparing Cutler to Elway now or argue against some point I've not made in merely noting that stats not only don't tell the whole story, they don't even tell the best story.


So now we are back to the crux of the argument that made me "an idiot."

I said in a few posts that Cutler has yet to learn to win....perhaps because at Vanderbilt he did so much losing

You just said that Elway, aside from mediocre stats, was a WINNER

So now we are agreeing with my original argument...

I also find it interesting that you've been bashing a guy who uses pure stats, then use them to convey your own argument (Cutlers amazing stats)....all Joyner did was say that Cutler is prone to making mistakes and somehow it became this thread....I think since we've all watched Cutelr we can agree that he does tend to force the ball at times...

broncofan7
07-16-2009, 07:25 AM
As I said, Blue... you're feel to believe he's "cocky," just don't mistake that for some sort of factual information.

It's your own biased, baseless opinion. You've been bashing everything we've done since Shanahan was let go. That's fine. You're pissed. There's no making you happy. Whatever works for you.

But, McDaniels is a head coach doing his job. He's no more or less cocky than Shanahan or Gruden were when they came off of coordinator jobs and went on to win Superbowls.

You just don't like him... and hence, any sort of confidence he exudes will be perceived by you as arrogance. If you liked him, you'd perceive it as a normal, confident head coach that knew where he was taking his team.



On a side note, I hope the Widows Club is proud of themselves. (All 10 of you.) You've even managed to disgust Hall of Fame posters like Mediator and Eddie Mac to the point where they can't take it anymore. Normally civil guys, the team-trashers have quality posters like this fed up with the place.

Great work!

:thumbs:

Well, these 'hall of fame' posters, with their take on the Cutler article being a prime example, may have lost their touch--and much like Shanny as Broncos coach--perhaps it is time for them to move on. Thankfully, we will not have them replaced by an up and coming Patriots board poster..........

footstepsfrom#27
07-16-2009, 07:27 AM
So now we are back to the crux of the argument that made me "an idiot."

I said in a few posts that Cutler has yet to learn to win....perhaps because at Vanderbilt he did so much losing

You just said that Elway, aside from mediocre stats, was a WINNER

So now we are agreeing with my original argument...
Eh...no that's not what I'm doing.
I also find it interesting that you've been bashing a guy who uses pure stats, then use them to convey your own argument (Cutlers amazing stats)....all Joyner did was say that Cutler is prone to making mistakes and somehow it became this thread....I think since we've all watched Cutelr we can agree that he does tend to force the ball at times...
The stat I mentioned WAS his wins...the thing being questioned...try again.

footstepsfrom#27
07-16-2009, 07:30 AM
Well, these 'hall of fame' posters, with their take on the Cutler article being a prime example, may have lost their touch--and much like Shanny as Broncos coach--perhaps it is time for them to move on. Thankfully, we will not have them replaced by an up and coming Patriots board poster..........
How does one become a "Hall of Fame poster" on the OM I wonder? Is there some kind of selection process...do you retire and wait 5 years? Do only the active posters vote or the whole board? Is there a stat line you need like number of posts?

Or maybe it's just who Popps and his minnions designate? ??? How's this work exactly?

Dukes
07-16-2009, 07:32 AM
Or maybe it's just who Popps and his minnions designate? ??? How's this work exactly?

Popps has minions? Where do I sign up? :wiggle:

vancejohnson82
07-16-2009, 07:35 AM
Eh...no that's not what I'm doing.

The stat I mentioned WAS his wins...the thing being questioned...try again.

dude.....all I said about Cutler was that he has yet to be a proven WINNER and that sometimes he makes bonehead throws....that was all I was attempting to get across

and if we are discussing wins, then my point stands

broncofan7
07-16-2009, 07:41 AM
dude.....all I said about Cutler was that he has yet to be a proven WINNER and that sometimes he makes bonehead throws....that was all I was attempting to get across

and if we are discussing wins, then my point stands

Cutler will win 10 games in a tougher division than is the afc west this year. He won't have to carry his handicapped brother & sister anymore during games ( D & ST's)

vancejohnson82
07-16-2009, 07:47 AM
Cutler will win 10 games in a tougher division than is the afc west this year. He won't have to carry his handicapped brother & sister anymore during games ( D & ST's)

ok...and then he can shed the label that some of us (myself included) have placed upon him which is an Uber Talent with Upside...I tend to think that in Year 1 with the Bears he wont top 10 wins....I think they will go 8-8

I just dont understand how during the course of talking about NFL players people get so offended and pissy...

and for the record, Cutler probably won us about 7 games last year on his own and lost us 2 or 3 on his own...thats my opinion

worm
07-16-2009, 07:48 AM
Assuming you're lumping me into this group I think you're WAY off base. How am I "desperate"? footsteps, among others, doesn't like the stats that Joyner has presented and states that he and everybody else know better than this "geek who sits in his basement watching football games" does. Sure, anybody could choose to do what Joyner does but the fact is very few people do. And like it or not the fact that he has a passion for doing it, and spends many hours doing it, at the very least means he's had more experience doing it and has clearly had more exposure to every team in the league. Buff, I can guarantee you I'm better at my job than you are. Do you know why? Because I've been doing it every day for many years and you haven't. Do you see where footsteps "logic" is off here? He's painted Joyner as some idiot who sits in his basement watching football games, but at the end of the day aren't we all someone who does something for a living every day which makes us generally better at it than the average person who does something else? Again, this is all very simple but you've let your bias and footsteps overbearing bad logic cloud your judgement.


You posted in this very thread (#155) an article by Dr Z where he indicates he doesn't agree with all of KCs observations. In fact, you bolded it for us!

Now you want us to believe that everything KC utters should be written on stone tablets because he does it for a living? That he is an 'expert' and therefore should be believed unequivocally?

You are also arguing semantics on what KC meant by some of his statements on Champ and Lelie because you are unwilling to admit that he might, in fact, just be plain wrong.

You seem to have no comprehension of the difference between a stat or fact and drawing a conclusion\observation based on them. You mix them all up and treat them all as facts because he is matching something that you had already formed an opinion about.

You apparently are as incapable of critical thinking as Popps....but for the love of God, man, could you at least keep your logic straight!

footstepsfrom#27
07-16-2009, 07:51 AM
dude.....all I said about Cutler was that he has yet to be a proven WINNER and that sometimes he makes bonehead throws....that was all I was attempting to get across

and if we are discussing wins, then my point stands
Actually this is what you said:
what? the fact that his team played from behind most of the time and he racked up individual stats??? i mean, he was a GREAT QB and is a GREAT QB...but hes like Shane Falco

a born loser
I actually look stuff up.

broncofan7
07-16-2009, 07:59 AM
ok...and then he can shed the label that some of us (myself included) have placed upon him which is an Uber Talent with Upside...I tend to think that in Year 1 with the Bears he wont top 10 wins....I think they will go 8-8

I just dont understand how during the course of talking about NFL players people get so offended and pissy...

and for the record, Cutler probably won us about 7 games last year on his own and lost us 2 or 3 on his own...thats my opinion

the beginning of their schedule is tough --i see them starting slow 0-2 and then getting some momentum

Punisher
07-16-2009, 08:03 AM
Umm I think Cutler is the answer for them.....They had a Real good RB last year with an ok starting QB now arguably they have a Top 5 QB this Year.

Although Lovie Smith won't upgrade Cutlers QB skills they still have a Really Good QB but it won't get them to the playoffs this year maybe next year.

vancejohnson82
07-16-2009, 08:04 AM
Actually this is what you said:

I actually look stuff up.

I'll take away the "born" part of it....

but through college he "lost" and so far through the NFL he "lost"

although throwing for 300 yards in losses is respectable, it still counts as a loss

"See Sidney, the problem with you is that you would rather look good and lose than look bad and win" -- Billy Ho "White Men Can't Jump"

TonyR
07-16-2009, 08:15 AM
Now you want us to believe that everything KC utters should be written on stone tablets because he does it for a living? That he is an 'expert' and therefore should be believed unequivocally?


I never, ever suggested any such thing. Never. Ever. Joyner is certainly not always right. What I am saying is that calling Joyner an idiot and saying we know more than him is ridiculous. You can interpret his stats any way you want. His stats show that Champ had some stuggles in 2005 (he did, despite being one of the best CBs in the league), and that Lelie was a dangerous deep threat (he was, despite being a very flawed WR over all). Everybody got all up in arms to begin with because his more recent stats suggest that Cutler makes too many mistakes and this aspect of his game may remind Bears fans of Grossman. Again, Joyner is probably right on both counts. Do what you want with this information. Or be an a-hole and ignore Joyner's stats and call him names because you don't agree. Either way.

broncofan7
07-16-2009, 08:18 AM
just saw this--been busy at work. Manning got it done? With his one additional TD(26) and almost 400 yards less passing on the season? huh?What? The Colts did manage to average almost 26 points per game Vs Denver's 23. Denver had 1900 yards rushing and 15 TDs while Indy had almost 2000 with 16 TDs(Edge had gotten hurt)---So what could account for the difference in scoring between the 2001 colts and the 2008 Broncos--the colts had 15 ints including 1 for a TD and 10 fumble recoveries including 1 for a TD with both a PR and KR for a TD+ a Td pass from TE Ken Dilger.--the 2008 broncos had 6 ints and 7 fumble recoveries with 2 TD's--the 2001 colts and 2008 Broncos are much more similar than you are willing to admit.

EDIT--and more importantly, both Manning and Cutler had similar type of seasons--with the risk taking, diabetic, whiny, can never be a winner --Jay Cutler throwing 5 LESS INTs than the cerebral Peyton Manning.

Another similarity between the 2001 Colts and the 2008 Broncos was that both teams fired their HC's @ the end of the season.
The difference is the following--Indy hired a defensive HC and kept most of the Offensive staff intact while Bowlen hires an offensive coach who blows the whole thing up--did Dungy come in and attempt to trade for Trent Dilfer? LOL---Spagnuolo made so much sense on so many levels...........

TonyR
07-16-2009, 08:27 AM
...Your computer geek thinks the statistics he dreamed up are capable of superior analysis compared to what every single unbiased person watching Baily knows...he was/is the best CB in the NFL.

Please explain to us how/why the opinions of these unbiased people you mention are superior to Joyner's? What makes those people better judges than Joyner?

I think you're smart enough to realize that bias is created both by one being a fan of a player and/or the players team and also by the media building up certain players. Pro Bowl voting shows this bias every year. Brett Favre is the poster boy of the media creating the greatness of a player who really isn't all that great. The media says player x is great and everybody believes it. So isn't it possible that many of these hypothetical unbiased people in your argument think Bailey is/was great because that's what everybody says? Whereas Joyner's cold, hard, unbiased, unemotional stats show that he had some struggles. Again, this isn't that hard to figure out and you're making a much bigger deal out of it than is really necessary. You don't have to agree with Joyner's analysis, but you're an ignoramus by unilaterally declaring your opinion is better than his.

vancejohnson82
07-16-2009, 08:31 AM
Another similarity between the 2001 Colts and the 2008 Broncos was that both teams fired their HC's @ the end of the season.
The difference is the following--Indy hired a defensive HC and kept most of the Offensive staff intact while Bowlen hires an offensive coach who blows the whole thing up--did Dungy come in and attempt to trade for Trent Dilfer? LOL---Spagnuolo made so much sense on so many levels...........

Agreed.....however, we have yet to see how Spags does as a head coach, so he is in the same "Guilty Until Proven Innocent" ramshack that some of you have placed McDaniels in...

Bowlen decided to go offense and then grab somebody from the second tier (Nolan) to beef up the D....getting Spags would have just meant that we would have gotten somebody from the second tier for the offense.....which probably would have made more sense....

However, neither coach has yet to take a team onto the field so they are both level, although McDaniels has ruffled some hometown feathers

broncofan7
07-16-2009, 08:36 AM
Agreed.....however, we have yet to see how Spags does as a head coach, so he is in the same "Guilty Until Proven Innocent" ramshack that some of you have placed McDaniels in...

Bowlen decided to go offense and then grab somebody from the second tier (Nolan) to beef up the D....getting Spags would have just meant that we would have gotten somebody from the second tier for the offense.....which probably would have made more sense....

However, neither coach has yet to take a team onto the field so they are both level, although McDaniels has ruffled some hometown feathers

McDaniels traded our BEST asset! LOL That did it for me.--in order to get me on board--McD needs to get us at least to 9-7.

Hercules Rockefeller
07-16-2009, 08:44 AM
Another similarity between the 2001 Colts and the 2008 Broncos was that both teams fired their HC's @ the end of the season.
The difference is the following--Indy hired a defensive HC and kept most of the Offensive staff intact while Bowlen hires an offensive coach who blows the whole thing up--did Dungy come in and attempt to trade for Trent Dilfer? LOL---Spagnuolo made so much sense on so many levels...........

He blew the whole thing up? So McDaniels should have kept the same defensive coaching staff? He kept Turner and Dennison, the only offensive coaches that absolutely had to be retained.

Piss and moan about his personnel moves if you want, but McDaniels has put together an excellent coaching staff.

broncofan7
07-16-2009, 08:46 AM
He blew the whole thing up? So McDaniels should have kept the same defensive coaching staff? He kept Turner and Dennison, the only offensive coaches that absolutely had to be retained.

Piss and moan about his personnel moves if you want, but McDaniels has put together an excellent coaching staff.

Who in their right mind would not have gutted our defensive staff???? Your post lacks all credibility b/c you wrote that.........

Hercules Rockefeller
07-16-2009, 08:46 AM
McDaniels traded our BEST asset! LOL That did it for me.--in order to get me on board--McD needs to get us at least to 9-7.

Good for you, I'll forward this to Pat so he knows where you stand and hopefully he'll keep where you stand in the back of your mind as the season progresses.

BTW, did you actually think a Shanny-led team with Slowik and Co. still as the defensive coaching staff would be 9-7 this year?

Hercules Rockefeller
07-16-2009, 08:48 AM
Who in their right mind would not have gutted our defensive staff???? Your post lacks all credibility b/c you wrote that.........

Well Shanahan wouldn't, that's why he was fired.

So basically you complain about blowing the whole thing up, and blowing up the defensive coaching staff is something you agree with. Congrats on not even being able to post a coherent complaint. You're pissed that Cutler is gone, 1 player on offense is not blowing the whole thing up. Try again.

broncofan7
07-16-2009, 08:49 AM
Good for you, I'll forward this to Pat so he knows where you stand and hopefully he'll keep where you stand in the back of your mind as the season progresses.

BTW, did you actually think a Shanny-led team with Slowik and Co. still as the defensive coaching staff would be 9-7 this year?

Don't you have a reading comprehension class to attend after your recess ends? Once you attend the class --then come back RE-READ my posts and apologize for mischaracterizing my posts........

Hercules Rockefeller
07-16-2009, 08:51 AM
Don't you have a reading comprehension class to attend after your recess ends? Once you attend the class --then come back RE-READ my posts and apologize for mischaracterizing my posts........

Answer the question, where did you think this team would have been with Shanahan as the HC in '09?

broncofan7
07-16-2009, 08:51 AM
Well Shanahan wouldn't, that's why he was fired.

So basically you complain about blowing the whole thing up, and blowing up the defensive coaching staff is something you agree with. Congrats on not even being able to post a coherent complaint. You're pissed that Cutler is gone, 1 player on offense is not blowing the whole thing up. Try again.

Repost--you dolt.

Another similarity between the 2001 Colts and the 2008 Broncos was that both teams fired their HC's @ the end of the season.
The difference is the following--Indy hired a defensive HC and kept most of the Offensive staff intact while Bowlen hires an offensive coach who blows the whole thing up--did Dungy come in and attempt to trade for Trent Dilfer? ---Spagnuolo made so much sense on so many levels...........

Hercules Rockefeller
07-16-2009, 08:54 AM
Repost--you dolt.

Another similarity between the 2001 Colts and the 2008 Broncos was that both teams fired their HC's @ the end of the season.
The difference is the following--Indy hired a defensive HC and kept most of the Offensive staff intact while Bowlen hires an offensive coach who blows the whole thing up--did Dungy come in and attempt to trade for Trent Dilfer? ---Spagnuolo made so much sense on so many levels...........

Try again, what was blown up besides the defensive coaching staff?

You've already said the defensive coaching staff should have been fired, so apparently part of the blowing up you agree with.

Who on the offensive coaching staff had to be retained besides Turner and Dennison?

Who was cut from the defense or offense that absolutely needed to be here next year?

Try to actually respond to a question instead of attempting your weak little personal shots at me.

If all you have is Cutler, that's not blowing the whole thing up.

broncofan7
07-16-2009, 08:55 AM
Answer the question, where did you think this team would have been with Shanahan as the HC in '09?

Having a back and forth with you on this board is tantamount to me playing tennis against a quadriplegic..........

Hercules Rockefeller
07-16-2009, 08:57 AM
Having a back and forth with you on this board is tantamount to me playing tennis against a quadriplegic..........

Uhhh, I'm not the one that resorted to ad hominem attacks right off the bat. Let me know when you decide to actually respond to a post instead of trying to dance around it.